The Horror, The Horror! with Patrizia Dahlia Thompson
A podcast all about horror, with Patrizia Dahlia Thompson (She/They).
One Hundred Percent Independent and queer owned.
The Podcast art is by @Drali.Arts
The Horror, The Horror! with Patrizia Dahlia Thompson
Ep 10: Climax with Chris Hale (K-Hole)
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
We're back!
On this episode I'm joined by another up and comer in the transfemme cinema cannon, to discuss my favourite Noé movie.
Chris Hale- director of Lesbian Vampire seeking Jewish Lover and K-Hole (out today!)- talks 2018's Climax.
Thanks so much Chris. You really did your research!
The podcasts got a patreon!! : https://www.patreon.com/Ththpodcast?utm_campaign=creatorshare_creator
Music:
"What to do" and "Rectum" by Thomas Bangalter
"Supernature" by Cerrone
"Mad" by CoH
All music used for review purposes only. Rights go to respective owners
I love you all. Please let me know if you listening
Hey folks, before we get into this great episode on Climax with Chris Hale, I just wanted to let you know that I have set up a Patreon for the podcast. You can find it at www.patreon.com forward slash CW forward slash THTH podcast. So it was actually talking to Niles Pain from the Great Fuck Buddies podcast, and he told me if he could have started a Patreon sooner, he would have. So there's just one price, it's 150. It's bait working off a model of soundness. If you like what I do and you want to support an independent trans owned podcast, you want to kick in a little bit of money that will, you know, go towards paying the hosting and all that stuff. I understand there's a lot of great causes out there for people to give money to, but if you can, please consider throwing less than the price of a soft drink my way. I want to shout out the three members I've already got, Sarah Lynn, Saive, and Deanna. I wouldn't be able to do this podcast if it wasn't for the support of my partners. This episode in particular is dedicated to my partner Deanna, who handles the bulk of the admin to do with the flat, which leaves me space to do things like this. So I really love and appreciate you, baby. The TUS Um Chris Hale. Welcome uh to the podcast.
SPEAKER_03Lovely to be here. Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_00How old are you again?
SPEAKER_03I am 21. 21.
SPEAKER_00Which generation does that make you part of?
SPEAKER_03I think I'm I'm right on the precipice of Gen Alpha, but I am Gen Z, I believe.
SPEAKER_00Okay, well you're very um you're very Gen, uh I say this complimentary, you're very Gen Z maybe even like millennial coded in your taste in film.
SPEAKER_03So uh yeah, I I I certainly am.
SPEAKER_00You are you are thus far our youngest guest and our oldest has been 62. Um but yeah, Chris, you are uh do you want to introduce yourself to the horror of the horror listeners? You are a filmmaker who has made what was it, Lesbian Vampire Seeking Jewish Lover, which I watched this week. You've done a few shorts, but your biggest short is K-Hole, which is gonna be on Gum Road the first of June. I'm gonna try and have the episode out around that time and we'll link it in the podcast notes and everything.
SPEAKER_03But but yeah, if you could introduce yourself to the uh yeah, uh as she said, I am uh filmmaker, I'm also uh poet, writer, all around artsy brained person. Um a clown, perhaps some could say. Uh it's yeah, and and as mentioned, yeah, my new film K-Hole's coming out. We just wrapped up uh a tour in the States. Uh yeah. I'm flying out to the Netherlands on the 31st for a screening there. Um sort of been a whirlwind of a couple months, but um, yeah, I'm very happy to be here, as I say.
SPEAKER_00So K-Hole is kind of the longest short that you've done so far. It's like the most involved kind of one. Um, I became aware of the film when the K-Hole account started following the podcast. And immediately I was like, K-Hole film, look it up, Trans Director. I'm like, immediately I'm following back. Uh, I don't want to, you know, I I have my professional employment, so I can't talk too much, but but uh I suffice to say it resonated with me the title. So I was like, uh let's go. This this seems fucking amazing. And I and I reached out to you and you you sent me a link, and you know, it it's it's just like what we talked about, it's more kind of like transgressive in the best sense, kind of trans cinema. But where did it kind of because I heard you mention also shout out to uh Maxel Telena and Dysphoria Podimes Dysphoria Podcast because Maxel is exec producer on the short. Um, Maxel, if you have seen Castration movie Best of Both Worlds, she's the friend. I can't remember the character's name, but she talks to who when she says, Oh, I'm sober, but I do cataman. Yeah, and like I've been listening to that podcast and it it fucking rocks. But I heard you saying kind of that it was kind of inspired by your own experiences. So, like, how much do you want to talk about that? Like, what was the idea behind the short?
SPEAKER_03I've been in place and I I I love all the transgressive trans cinema that's been coming out. It's I mean, you know, we really are in a golden age, and I I but a lot of it's ridiculously bleak as it's going to be given you know the worldwide climate around trans issues. And you know, there's bleakness in my film, but I I wanted to make something that is sort of a rallying cry for community, to be honest. And yeah, I mean, you know, I I I have my own experiences. Uh I'm again I'm like you, I'm trying to be careful, I say.
SPEAKER_00Um but it's not as if we're talking about a movie that isn't doesn't have a lot of drug use as well today, but of course.
SPEAKER_03Uh yeah, I but there's as I say, there's this bleakness for all trans cinema, and to really explore something softer, nicer, empathetic, um is kind of the the key word that I'd say for the film. I hope. I hope it comes across as empathetic. Um, but I I originally wrote the script when I was 15. That's the first draft. Um and so for the last six years, I mean it's a project I come back to during periods in my life where it speaks to me. And what ended up happening is I lost my master copy, and so the shooting script is pretty true to what I wrote at 15. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Wow, okay. So at at like at 15, was this drawing from your own life? Like, I can't imagine writing that at 15, except writing it from an edgy place where I was imitating stuff I'd seen in movies, you know.
SPEAKER_03Uh yeah, it was pretty taken from my life. I mean, I I moved out from home when I was 15. Um and yeah, I I you know, I experienced a lot. And to draw from that, I genuinely I really do believe in art as therapy. Um so that all my films have some aspect that I'm trying to work through myself and find solace in my own mind.
SPEAKER_00Um, but yeah, so I think Nelly is a fine example. Nellie uh Connor, who plays uh Chloe, is just like a fine example of like a thing that I've noticed. Like I haven't made anything here yet, but there just always is in and the film set in Aberdeen, it's set which is is that that's where you are currently, yeah. Um yeah, and uh I had to be very clear. I was like when I I I watched again the other day, I took notes, I was like, it's Aberdeen, it's not Glasgow. I was like, I can't make do like a Hello Cleveland mistake on that. Like, I think Nellie just has this like st screen quality, this star quality, whatever you call it. Amazing looking, like just striking looking trans woman who has a qu a quality that is you just have to pick up a camera sometimes and just like you know, find these people. And and I think one thing I kind of like wanted to ask is with with her relationship with Inushka, is that how I say her name?
SPEAKER_03Uh yeah, that's correct. Anushka.
SPEAKER_00But Inushka's character, is it meant to be that they were a couple and have broken up, but they're still in that kind of yeah, uh yeah.
SPEAKER_03I mean the that was my view, writing and shooting it. Um, but I I very much believe in not spelling everything out. And so if people interpret it differently, which people have all the power to them. Yeah, but but yeah, the there is this codependency. And I actually I met Nellie through the film, she's just the most fantastic performer. I I had seen her perform before, um, but I had my lead actress dropped out two weeks before the shoot.
SPEAKER_00Oh shit.
SPEAKER_03And so I'm like, I'm messaging everyone, hey, you know, I've got this role, and it's like quite a me role with some controversial elements, and so everyone's like, I'm not touching this, which is completely fair. And someone said, I I actually know this girl, and I think she'd be perfect to it. So I got given Nellie's email, and uh the film, the script really spoke to her. She found a lot of herself in it. Um, she's you know spoken about this, and I I I think it's really nice and beautiful, and yeah, you know, I I I would consider Nellie. I mean, she's genuinely one of the finest actors I've ever worked with. She's just the most incredible actress I've and yeah, uh maybe something in the pipeline to where I'll be able to work with her again, which I'm very happy for.
SPEAKER_00Incredible. It's interesting what you said about you know the kind of bleakness. I certainly feel, you know, it is a golden age, a great time to be alive for you know transgressive trans art. I do feel like that's directly proportional to how shit everything feels. And we're as we're recording this, this is the day of the ruling about the EHS or C guidelines, which I I don't even like I don't I I I can't even get into today of looking into how much that's gonna play out. But uh I I did a post on Instagram where I kind of said it like and I I feel like I kind of articulate a little bit talking to Carson is like I do feel that like you know, transgressive feel bad trans art is what sates my soul right now. It's what I need, you know. My girlfriend Dee did kind of point out that like the exception in terms of the kind of transgressive trans cinema that you know we've watched recently, the exception in terms of not being feel bad is I don't know if you've seen Poppy Girl, the Henry Hansen Milo Tawani movie.
SPEAKER_03I I haven't seen it yet, but a dog movie I enjoyed very much.
SPEAKER_00Oh, dog movie's fantastic, it's so fucking good. Um Milo's character and that just like speaks to my scumbag. So like when I when I uh when I broke up with my ex and was just like living with friends in London and ostensibly to get my life together, yeah, that was me. Um but that's kind of the exception because it's not so outwardly bleak, it's quite sweet, but also it's it's in its own way very transgressive. But I do, you know, the question of like at this time where we're under attack, you know, like is is is is trans art that kind of deals with the the the negative and the messy and the dark aspects of trans of trans life is is that you know is that stuff that I need to elevate right now? But I feel like by elevating transgressive trans art, we are lifting up and drawing a light on trans performers, trans actors, trans everything. So it's like the art is very bleak, but for me it's a really positive thing. Like the posit, it's it's actually much more positive than bleak, this kind of like this movement to me.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I I I'd agree. I mean, you know, uh what when I was saying that there's a lot of bleak art, that was not to the detriment of any film whatsoever. But I and I've I've loved all these films, and I I completely agree that just by the nature of existing, um, is something that's uniting a lot of people, it's bringing the community closer. Yeah, I think it's a wonderful thing.
SPEAKER_00Um, I wanted to talk to you about one of the things that you kind of like you post on the Instagram, the K-Hole Instagram, which kind of caught my attention, was uh where you kind of laid out like cinematic inspirations, which included this film Climax that we're gonna talk about today, but also Evil Deads, Naj, which I haven't seen yet. I I feel like there's an honesty in in highlighting uh first of all, as a film nerd, it it it endears me to a work when you're like channeling these kind of great kind of these great works of of art, but also like I feel like there's an honesty to kind of like set showing where your influences are. Like, is that is that where you come from with doing that stuff? Because I know some people would rather not be so honest about where their inspirations are coming from, you know?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it it was almost a hard post to put together because there is a lot of influence on you know framing and shots from you know, I I am a huge fan of cinema, I have been since you know I was small. But I found it difficult because it it's like an odd one, but a lot of my influence comes from photography, paintings, music. Because if I'm drawing from cinema a lot, then it does risk being a repetitive thing, and there's so much more artistically to draw from. But you know, I it felt great to be honest. Hey, here's the influences, and you know, there's a lot of horror. Horror is my favorite genre.
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_03I enjoyed enjoy drawing from different genres because I think it's there's a lot of untapped potential of bringing in horror comedy into something that otherwise is, you know, on the surface, quite bleak.
SPEAKER_00Uh, so how did Maxel end up as producer or exec producer? How did that kind of come about?
SPEAKER_03Uh yeah, I had been speaking to I've known Maxel for a year or so before K-Hole because she had this poem about vampires that spoke to me so deeply. And when I was screening Lesbian Vampire, I just hit her up and I was like, Can I read this? Because I think this sets the tone so well for the film that I'm gonna screen. And she's like, Absolutely, of course. And then fast forward a year, and she's seeing Kale Hole, and she's like, I love what you're doing here, I love what I'm seeing. If there's any way I can help out, I would love to. And she did, she's been incredible, she's one of the sweetest souls I know. So to really bring all together.
SPEAKER_00How did the kind of the rest of the casting come about? Because I know you've got Rune Carroll, who was Ivy and People's Joker, doing a voice in there. Like, how did the rest of the casting kind of happen?
SPEAKER_03Rue is Scottish based, which helped. I first I met her. I say I met I first saw her at screening of the People's Joker, where she did a brief introduction to the film, and I kind of thought she was Dynamite. She really she really lifted up the room. Most of the cast though is friends. Um there there are two actors in the film, as in like professional actors. I I'm not gonna say who they are, but I think you can tell. I I I much prefer to work with non-actors because you're able to get real honesty and rawness out of them. Yeah, they don't go in with pretense or that they even know what they're doing, and that's beautiful. And that's always one of my pieces of directing. I'm like, say it as you, find what you can find within the character that you relate to, and from there it's it's easy sailing. We we did a lot of freedom on the set of allowing the actors to really move about the dialogue and make it their own, which I think adds to the flow and helps. But it did make it a nightmare in post because we had this is gonna shock you, audio issues. Um and the memory card that was recording all the audio just completely got corrupted. Did you which is why we have that cheeky thank you to sand disk at the end of the credits? Um but you know, thank god for my audio engineer Cass Kelman, who fixed it best you can. You watch the film and and you can totally tell, but it's a combination of you know trying to reconstruct camera audio and then post-dubbing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I felt like because like you sent me the the link to the YouTube and then you sent me a link to the short, and I felt like the the sound mix had been improved in the interim period, but I you know what I mean? Uh uh already I didn't want to interrupt your flow, but I've had like the it like connection cut out and then speed up, and I'm like, uh oh, I'm recording this on a 10-year-old laptop. Like, but it's starting to come around to that being an aesthetic now, so that's fine. One of the revelations of the short for me was the Satchic Korn songs that are in the in it, but Hydra Sign is like such a bup. I've sent it everybody who I know I've sent it to says it's such a bup. The other song that she has need, which is in the film as well. But how did those songs kind of end up being in the movie? Because they're fantastic.
SPEAKER_03How did those songs end up being in the movie? The answer is that our original song did not get cleared.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_03Sasha's a very good friend of mine, um, that I I know from the real world. Um and she's just the most wonderful performer. I I adore her music, and so we we don't get the original song cleared, and I'm going through everyone I know who's a musician and seeing how their songs fit and hydro. It's like it fits so well. And I'm like, Sasha, no, it's can I use this? It was just the demo she had, it wasn't released um previously. But uh it's such good. I went through her SoundCloud and I I'm going through every track and I'm like, Sasha, please may I use your music. You know, here's a little here's some money, may I use it? And uh and I'm so happy because I I really think that song at the end is sort of emblematic of the whole film. Oh, it ties in really nicely, yeah.
SPEAKER_00100%, yeah. Okay, well, you should check out K-Hole when you can, it's fucking amazing. Uh let's get on to the main topic. You originally suggested another Gaspar movie, which is Looksaternia, which uh I can tell my Gaspar story, we get to that one, but it was in conversation, you were like, Oh, I could also really talk about climax, and I was like, Okay, I I fucking love climax, so let's do climax. But what was it that made you go for those films and not what is jet it would generally be kind of the biggest Gaspar Noé movie, which is irreversible? Um, and yeah, then I guess we can talk about Gaspar as a as a filmmaker in general.
SPEAKER_03To me, Gaspar Noé has just improved so much as a filmmaker over time. Rewatching all his films in preparation for this, there is obviously an edginess to all his films, but I think in the beginning, especially with I Stand Alone, it's edginess for the sake of edginess. But he's been able to find a number of he's been able to find the stories which call for it, and he's saying a lot more with his art in the more recent films, uh, in my opinion, and obviously the tattoo aspects are fantastic. It was on the South K Hole. I was talking to Nally, and I said, you know, what are your favorite films? And she said climax, and I was like, This is gonna be the most crazy shoot, it's gonna be the best shoot ever. And and it was, yeah. So had a lot of influence on my work, I'd say, Climax, especially.
SPEAKER_00Uh look, I'm not gonna lie, when I saw that the the chat to climax, I was like immediately I can tell that this is the kind of film that I'm interested in. And I I compared Kahull to I think my original letterbox review was it Scottish Safety slash No Accor. Obviously, when I invoked the Safties, I'm talking about the movies they made before they broke up. Brothers before they split as a filmmaking duo. But before they broke up. But it has that kind of like tension, that like anxiety to it that that I I associate with these filmmakers. So you you would say you prefer something like Lux Eternia or um climax to uh irreversible?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I I I do really enjoy irreversible. It is it would be up there in terms of my horror movie ranking, but I do prefer climax, yeah. Um, maybe it's that I see more of myself in the film. I mean, yeah, maybe he's just he's matured massively as a filmmaker, is what I'd say. And I think that's such a wonderful place to be.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, 100%.
SPEAKER_03My my local theater closed down a couple years ago, an independent one, uh, which was such a shame. But I think one of the last films I saw there was Vortex, and that was such a good experience in this packed house.
SPEAKER_00Uh, I'm a huge fan of Gaspar. I've it took me a while to watch Irreversible, and I will say, like, I think Irreversible is a brilliant film. I've talked about it in this podcast before, also, I can talk about it forever. I I think it's a brilliant film, I think it's a perfect. Made work of art. I think it is. And I, you know, I watch a lot of stuff that like you have to shake your head to pro show you don't approve of while you're watching it with someone else. Like, there are some films that I like that I'm not going to go to bat for morally. But irreversible, I do think, is a morally justified film in that I feel like it it justifies it's like no rape should not be something that you want to watch. And I I think like he has Edgelord's propensity to be an edgelord. I think it's definitely a part of him, but I don't feel irreversible for the most part was that. I feel like it's in terms of wanting to portray something mourning something beautiful and mourning mourning a person and showing the actual the the cost of destruction to uh a person to you know what happens with violence and and the random the frightening random nature of violence. I've said like you can debate whether irreversible is a horror movie, and people have done it for years and years and years, but it scares me in a way that not a lot of other horror films do because it's just about being in the wrong place at the wrong time and encountering somebody who is fucking horrible, and you know, the violence that is done in retaliation is like most violence, just fucking stupid, and technically it achieves so much. And I the thing that made me fall in love with nowadays movies was the fact that they are so sensory, and I'll I'll return to that. But Irreversible is one where it's like I appreciate it, it's not a uh a fun movie, and climax, despite featuring a woman having a miscarriage and uh cutting her wrists, is more fun, like it's just one that I can return to more easily. I showed my girlfriend that before we went to see Irreversible because I think it's an easier on-ramp for his movies than Irreversible.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. I just re-watched Irreversible for the first time since I was like 13. You can call that a formative experience, perhaps. But to return to that, I appreciate it so much more. I I completely agree with you that it is justified. Well, you know, when I was saying that some of his older stuff is edgy, it was I stand alone that just I was like, this is edginess for the sake of edginess, which makes sense as his first film. Yeah, but I I I also thought it failed at being shocking. It it sort of it's really influenced every shock film since in terms of structure, but completely fails at being shocking because it kind of plays its cards at the very beginning.
SPEAKER_00I have not watched it for a long time, but I I think I like I Stand Alone a lot more than you. That the uh attention nous avons uh vous avez uh cinq minutes de quitte le salon. That that which for those who don't speak French and I'd probably mangle that, but it's it's the notice that the warning that comes up that says you have I don't know remember how many minutes, but you have it warns you you have this many minutes to leave the cinema before the end. Like it's a William Castle gimmick, and I love that. And that's the thing that I love. Another thing I love about Noe's work is that like he's as much influenced by the other day, went to see possession on the big screen, walked back from the cinema, which is one of my favorite movies. The third time I have a tattoo of it, it's one of the third time I'd seen it on the big screen. Walked back from the cinema, met a bunch of dolls who were coming out of social. We went to the queer bar, kissed a bunch of cuties, went home, watched Carson's movie. Bosh, it was it was say no more, it was fantastic. Perfect. But um, I was talking to one of the girls outside, and I was taught saying, like, I love that his movies, like he is as much influenced by like slasher movies as he is by Kubrick and by and I love a good mix of like quote unquote high and low art and and blending of influences like that. I think that's amazing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I completely agree. That's something that I've always tried to apply to my own work as well, and I see it so clearly in his work. I mean, I I I I took a note here re-watching Climax Today, um, that we open with this scene, you know, it's just it's characters talking, but the the films I saw, they've got possession there, they've got Sesperia like bordering the screen, a razor head, and then also some like queer classics.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And I I adore this mix of influences and wearing it on your sleeve. Yeah, 100%. But she certainly does, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Because I mean, the the the last film we covered, the the next film we covered, like there is a straight Sophia Botella does Isabella Jani moments in the in climax, which you then reference in uh K-hole.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, absolutely. I was sitting there making that post and I was like, do I say it was climax or do I say that it was possession? Because they both had influence on it. They both had obviously possession had massive influence on climax. Um, but yeah, I was I was um an ang, but you know, truthfully, it is climax that is probably the movie that has spoken to me most in the last 10 years. Amazing.
SPEAKER_00What is it? What is it that speaks speaks to you about it in particular, which I guess so true to the experience?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it is entirely true. If you've been in any situation that even touches near that, you can instantly feel it, and that is so helped by the performances. I I I I met one of the actors not too long ago when I was in Paris, um, because he's he's big in the queer rave scene, and it was just it was such an amazing thing because I think everybody is dynamite. I mean, the lead performance is fantastic, absolutely. I mean, that is one of the greatest performances of the 21st century, but the whole cast is just completely on point, and that's been an issue with his films in the past, is you know, maybe you have one or two great actors, but he can struggle to get a performance out of out of some performers. That's but he's completely mastered it since, is my view, and and climax is the film that is the definitive start point of him being one of the greatest filmmakers.
SPEAKER_00Hell yeah.
SPEAKER_03That would would be mad if you Vortex.
SPEAKER_00I I the the interesting thing, I love Vortex. The interesting thing that I found about the kind of like dialogue around it was I felt like people were kind of saying, Oh, this is like him maturing, this is like him dropping the edgelord sticker, it's like it's oh, it's like people were kind of saying, like, oh, it was like his Oscar Bait type film, which I don't think is fair. But also, like, it's it's the same thing as like I always say like the straight story is much more in canon or much more in conversation with the rest of David Lynch's movies than people act like. Just it's basically the small town charm of his work without the darkness. That's what it uh Vortex may like lack that the outward, obviously edgy aspects, and he only spins the camera around the whole way once in it. But philosophically, it's totally in conversation with the rest of his work. It's it's the same, it's the same nihilism, it's the same fatalism as every other is Burt is a new is a unique opportunity, is what flashes up during climax. Like, um, I took pictures of them all the other day so we can go through them, but I felt like yeah, Vortex is 100% in philosophically the same as his other movies.
SPEAKER_03I would 1000% agree. I mean, nihilism runs through all of his films. That would be the number one word I'd use to describe Gaspar Noe as a filmmaker, nihilistic, and is completely there. I I remember seeing a quote from Gasper Noe um when Vortex came out that his father described it as his most violent movie, and I completely agree. It's it's going down a different route, but is achieving and exploring the same ideas that he has been since the beginning.
SPEAKER_00So it with uh Lux Eternia, which I don't know. Like, I I got it when the Arrow Blu-ray came out. So the first time I heard of Lux Eternia, hell yeah, it's gorgeous cover. Um, the first time I heard of like did you watch the flicker by the way? I did.
SPEAKER_01Oh my god.
SPEAKER_00I watched it all the way through. Yeah, so did I. My girlfriend came home and I was like, Oh what I'll show it to you, but I don't think I can watch it again today. The Flicker is a legendary experimental film that inspired the uh strobing sequence, the strobing effect in uh Luxaturnia. But Lux Eternia I first heard of uh when a friend of a friend had come back from Cannes and they were talking about it, and they said that it was his it was his quote unquote funny one, which I asked, was that reputation justified? And he said yes. But uh yeah, they saw he saw it in a screening room where there was this guy who in the front of Row just kept saying, Ha ha Gaspar, you old bastard. And then and then they went outside and saw Gaspar Noe smoking a jazz cigarette outside the jazz cigarette. Yeah, but it didn't I I got it when it came out on the Blu-ray, and that was 2022. Uh I don't know if estrogen makes me like some films more because I give it four stars back then and I gave it five on this viewing. A similar thing has happened with Sucker Punch that uh my letterboxed ratings go up the longer that I'm on estrogen. I don't know. Um, but yeah, it's it's brilliant. It it burns in your brain. One of the things that I really love about Gaspar's movies is, you know, his work has been variously labelled like New French extremity and and part of like the new brutalism movement, which you can, you know, there's there's um antecedents to that in like theatre with Sarah Kane and the kind of like new brutalism in theatre. And like to a huge degree you you can say that his work is part of that, but the designation that I like for his films the most is cinema of the body, because I think his movies A, there is a focus on the body, you know, in all its destroyed forms, in all its most like base forms, puke, uh piss, calm, uh blood. And then in climax, we see like just it's all about the body, it's a spectacle of of bodies coming together to create something, but also destroying each other. But then also, you know, with things like using the the frequencies that riot police use in irreversible, it's like his movies make you feel something physically, and I in a way that I don't think very many filmmakers do.
SPEAKER_03I'd yeah, I agree 1000%. I feel like I'm saying that a lot, but he is able to capture feeling and I will feel it.
SPEAKER_00100%, yeah.
SPEAKER_03He is the master of that. That's why he's such an influence on me, I think. That when you're creating art, all you really want to do is make people feel something. 100%. Communicate that effectively. Absolutely. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00The thing that I find about art, like whether it be films or music, is that I feel like art can communicate a feeling that I don't have words for. And that's the thing that I love the most about it, is it's like I don't exactly have words for what this is, but the desolate atmosphere of some things I can just, you know, I I can just uh say it's like this. And I think that's that's the the the best thing. So Climax it's set in 1996, uh vaguely in the suburbs of Paris. It's inspired by a true story, although in the true story things didn't go as far as they do in the movie. But it is a group of dancers, a troop of dancers, a mixture of like vogres, uh crunkers, like and breakdowns people. And uh there's like an interesting kind of tension in the mixtures between people as well, which is interesting. But basically, they are rehearsing for a tour in America, which as uh Chris said at the beginning, you see these interviews where people are talking about that. You've got like so which star was it that you met when you were in Paris? Was it Teddy?
SPEAKER_03Uh that's a great question. Uh I don't know his name.
SPEAKER_00Okay, fair enough.
SPEAKER_03This is this is my fault.
SPEAKER_00This is me being terribly researched about oh god, no, you've done you've done loads. So they've been rehearsing for this tour, and then basically it starts with this incredible dance sequence that is just so beautifully shot of everyone, and then it basically unfolds in real time where they're having like this after party, and then eventually the sangria has been spiked with acid and things go progressively worse. Sophia Butella, who people would know from Kings the Kingsman movies, and that terrible Tom Cruise mummy that was a non-starter, God bless her, she's one of the most beautiful women in the world, and uh amazing act. So it was so great to see her in this and not in shit. Um, but she also was a dancer who like toured as a dancer with Madonna for years, and that was what her original background was in. So she's using about her acting, and you know, her this was the first time that she danced for years. It was like apparently shot uh films in a very short amount of time because it came out in 2018, but I believe the production started in 2018 as well, and the it was done kind of on an improvisory kind of like way with the the cast. I will say, I don't know if you'd agree with me, I think like I know that Gaspar can speak better English than he can write, and I do feel like his his roughest thing is when he writes English dialogue. I think his movies are his best in French, and I think his movies are his best when he's writing in French or or not using writing dialogue, to be honest.
SPEAKER_03Not writing dialogue, yeah. Um but I would 1000% agree. When he's writing French, it flows so nicely. I I'm not sure how much is his writing in the English or how much is love. I do not care for love. I I did not re-watch it.
SPEAKER_00I don't care for love either. It's uh it's got some amazing sequences in it, but it's probably of his movies. Um, and I think I think the dialogue and enter the void, some of the English dialogue is kind of a bit like rote and and just a bit crap like crappy.
SPEAKER_03I I I agree, and and the issue with Enter the Void is you're hit with that from the offset. Whereas with Climax it comes in later in the film, Enter the Void, English dialogue is rough.
SPEAKER_00So like you have like uh what my my notes on characters is Ivana, Berlin bitch, and then I have Riley, Twink, and then Psyche, other Berlin bitch.
SPEAKER_03Um at the Twink.
SPEAKER_00Oh, he's amazing. You got like Teddy Smiles, who has a song in the movie, he uh is the DJ who is daddy, who is like the the daddy of the group. So like when you said about it it it nailing that situation kind of perfectly, the way I feel about it is basically the structure of the movie is a night out. It's it's it's a night out that goes to hell. Because it starts with like dance and these amazing music, then you have these moments where it like splits off and you have different people's com having different conversations, and then my nights haven't gone as bad as this one did, but I have been on nights out where friends have got punched in the face and people have had fights and it just all goes to hell, and it just it represents so much that like it has a feeling of a party that just gets fucking awful.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I it's I I think it's something that most people can relate to on some level. Obviously, you can relate to it, I can relate to it, and that's what makes it such an easy film to introduce people to Gasper Noise work. We've all lived it to varying degrees, of course, but every person who has had nights now, every person who parties, they've been in this situation, and it captures it with so much rawness and truth that's helped by the performances massively that yeah you will 100% see yourself in this film in one way or the other.
SPEAKER_00The the the point where like, yeah, it's it's it's it's pure 4am vibe, isn't it? It's 4 a.m.
SPEAKER_01Sun's coming up.
SPEAKER_00Or sun's coming up, other people you leave, you know when you leave someone's house and it's seven in the morning and you see people going to work, and you're like, oh god, such a degenerate, it's absolute nightmare vibe. We should talk about the soundtrack because it's it's incredible, and it's like the have you watch did you watch the feature with Alan Jones on the Blu-ray? No, no, I haven't. Okay, so it's he wrote a book called Disco Forever, which is uh or Saturday Night Forever, which is like the history of discount the history of like the art. So like it starts with Gary Newman's version of uh my French kind of today's mobile guy. Two gymnum penny, which is where we see the girl walking across the snow. You've got Solve It by Chris Carter, Supernature, which is amazing, uh by Sterong, Born to Be Live by Patrick Hernandez, Pump Up the Volume by Mars, French Kiss by Little Louis, two tracks by Doppler Effect, the song Digmatized by Kitty Smile, which is just so fucking good. These and then, of course, so with Irreversible, like the things that stay in my head are like the the sound design and like that sound from the rectum, the like it leaves rent-free in my head. That like bell churning circular sound. And then we have like Neon, Suburban Knights, Daft Punk, Window Licker, which is like a big order, I think. If you're gonna use Window Licker in something like you are invoking a music video that is iconic, so like fair play that they used it and made it their own. But also like Wild Planet, Soft Cell, Georgia Moro, that scene where the Giorgio Morota track is playing at the end when everything's gone red is just the way it just escalates, this continuous beat, it's it's fucking amazing. But like also like a cover of Angie by the Rolling Stones that plays out the last moments of the movie, and then like Cozy Fanny Tuti and COH. Yeah, is there anything you want to say about the soundtrack in particular?
SPEAKER_03These are my favourite artists, all who are onto one soundtrack. When I first saw this, I wasn't aware of the soundtrack, and you get those opening credits halfway into the film as as Noe would do.
SPEAKER_0044 minutes.
SPEAKER_03And 44 minutes, there we go. And you see the list of people, and you're like, I'm in for the most incredible experience of my life. And I love how there is no separation between score and like the die Jack sound in the scenes.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03They blend and move into each other in such a living way. In a way that I think only he could achieve. I I mean it's been done, of course. But the film lives. It it's like you said about it's got such a focus on bodies. The film is a body of all this, all these moving parts. It's I adore the score and the soundtrack. I don't know if you'd even call it score, the two original pieces or the three original pieces that were done. But it blows me away every time.
SPEAKER_00Hell yeah. And she's walking towards the red, Marx just goes, Don't go towards the red, red is bad. And then it becomes because it's like there's like three two colors that are like in the movie. It's like the red, which is a f you know, as always, just represents hellishness in these like horrible spaces, and this like hospital ward green that is in the rest of the of the school.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. What when we were uh making K-Hole, there were shots that we intended to color grade with that green and decided against it because it kind of took away from the realism of it. But those like fluorescent green lights just create the most incredible imagery and the contrast that creates with the red as well.
SPEAKER_00Chef's kiss.
SPEAKER_03Chef's kiss, exactly.
SPEAKER_00You have the brother-sister characters who from the beginning in their interview that's clear that they have a little bit of a strange relationship. And then of course, like the movie ends with them waking up, like the the Angie sequence at the end where it's just going through what's happened to everyone is is like just so masterful. Like if you haven't seen the film and and uh you know, you feel like you're I I don't know like how much value is to kind of going through the the exact kind of things at all, but you know, there's the my girlfriend said to me when we were watching it, she was like, Oh no, a child in a Gaspar no. Oh no, it was when we were watching Lux Eternia and there's the weird moment with the phone call, and she goes, Oh no, a child in a Gaspar no movie. The sheer cruelty of what happens, or like you have the TO. The choreographer's uh kid who she like locks in the um in the root cupboard with the electrics to to protect him from everyone. And then the moment where he's like electrocuted himself and it puts the power out to the rest of the whole or or the moment where like there's the girl who's pregnant fighting with the other girl, and like it's because everybody's fucked on acid, but like there's like this just cruelty to it, and I feel like it's like it is a there is a kind of particular cruelty to his movies or to the to the action to the actions of characters movies that's like very very um unique, I I think, but also it's it's almost this kind of like religious kind of like I I don't mean that to say that I think he's coming from a come uh a place of condemnation or a place of judgment of of people's action, but it's almost if there's like this almost religious kind of piousness to how people act in his movies, to like their sense of morality.
SPEAKER_03I would agree, and I think that's so clear in Lexaturna, of course. I I'm sorry that I've also been jumping around a lot, yeah. But that's as explicit as it has gotten, of course, but that that's as explicit as it has gotten, but that is the feeling, uh the vibe that is captured throughout his filmography. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00So I have I think going through like the stuff that I haven't seen. I haven't seen his segment of Districted, nor I. I think I've seen clips of it where he um you've so have you seen everything, it's safe to say now.
SPEAKER_03Aside from Districted, I believe so.
SPEAKER_00What so one of the ones that uh we were chatting about the other day was a uh short film that Gaspar Noé got uh funding from the uh French government to make a film about safe sex, and it resulted in a short called Sodomites, which you can view on X video or something, I think, which is like a tribute to uh Lucifer Rising, where uh Carolyn Trentihi, who is one of the directors of Basimois, where she uh fucks a minotaur in a kind of leather bar scenario. France, this was on TV. I like Aired on television, yeah. Did you watch the uh Sissy Hypno video? Uh no. No, it's not actually Sissy Hypno, but it's like is his hypnotism short.
SPEAKER_03I did, I did, and I thought that was the perfect encapsulation of what he has done with his whole career. Hypnotic cinema. I haven't watched it. That's hard to describe it. I watched it in French. I tried to make subtitles because I I I can speak a tiny amount of French and there is no good subtitle file available for it. I was like, I could be the person who does this. No, I can't. Yeah, I I watched what's available of his short films. There are some that are incredibly difficult to track down, and so I I watched what's available, but watching the shorts, they they mostly came earlier in his career. But there's a lot, there's so much experimentation. I mean, Lexaturna could be described as a short, it's it's an hour or so. It's a it's a long short, and those are the where he seems to experiment the most with his style, you know. With Lexaterna, you've got the split screen that later became the basis of the visual style of Vortex with his earlier work. You see these beginnings of like the ex the reds, the extreme lighting, the telling a story not quite in the right order, as he loves to do. And that was really enlightening. I I didn't think they were the strongest films, his earlier ones, but it's so interesting to go back and see the basis of what became his career and what we know him for. So that would be probably the most I can say on his shorts.
SPEAKER_00One of the interesting things I think about him is that, you know, obviously he's he's Argentinian born and moved to France when he was uh like a teenager fairly late into his teens. Yet the climax is a movie that starts with the title, a French film, I'm proud of it. I think his his kind of relation to national identity is quite interesting because you know the French flag is right behind the DJ deck, but also we have characters who are talking about how they hate seeing it and how it has negative associations. Like, do you think what what do you think kind of is like his relation to kind of like French? I think he couldn't make his films anywhere else. I will say that. I think like when I remember reading about or or or hearing him talk about the development of Irreversible, there is no way his movies could be made within a Hollywood system. Like the idea of going to financiers anywhere other than in you know mainland Europe and saying, I have an idea for a film, I haven't got a script, but I have an idea. It just wouldn't happen. Did you kind of see anything in terms of like his his relation to Frenchness or his his relation to kind of like national identity and kind of going through his work?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I I think it's hard to speak on it a lot because you know, of course, he he that that would be a question for Gasper Noah. Um, but I uh I feel a lot of relation to it um because I am British, I'm Scottish, but I am you know technically British. And technically, um and there is shame that comes with that. There's there well, yeah, you know, we historically if if Germany hadn't misbehaved there, we'd be the bad guys. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00One of the the worst things about my my taste in women is that uh women with really posh English accents really do it for me. And I I I I wonder if like I can imagine like my Irish ancestors like looking at me over my shoulder, and like it like the but you know the shame's a part of it too. So like I don't know. I just I just hear a posh English accent and I I just want them to take my potatoes, like what can I say, you know?
SPEAKER_03Hearing an English accent upsets me to no end, but I don't mean that. I always seem to end up with them.
SPEAKER_00Um but yeah, no, you were talking about about British shame, the shame of being British, the shame of being assigned British at birth.
SPEAKER_03Assigned British at birth, absolutely. It's and and so I I I think in some ways I feel what he's feeling, would kind of be my view. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Benwan Debbie shout out like uh Noe's regular phot uh cinematographer, like it's an absolutely beautiful film, and there is so many sequences of like of dancing that I'm like when I try and sell people who don't like Gaspar Noe on this movie, I'm like, but there's lots of good dancing, it's not just disturbing stuff. Um but like like I said, like it's like it's just so beautiful to see kind of like just this ways in which all these different bodies connect and and and it's it's so incredibly done. And I know like the origin of it a lot was that he showed up at a at a party that I think Katie Smiles was judging, and so like it came out of him like seeing the voguing scene in Paris and stuff.
SPEAKER_03Um, but yeah, and you can kind of like there was a line that stood out to me at the very beginning in the opening montage of the characters speaking, where the character is asked, if you could not dance, what would you do? She pauses for a minute and she goes, suicide. I'm not in the dance scene, but as someone who creates art, that is so incredibly true. There's something within your body that you need to get out. It's a theme throughout his films, um, and that that goes with the raw emotion of it all. But that spoke to me as a line from Gasper Noe. That's that's him speaking, in my opinion, through the film. Yeah. That just stood out to me. I I thought it was worth a mention.
SPEAKER_00No, 100%. I mean, the first episode of this podcast is called is I used something Louise Ward said, which was I live for cinema, I'll die for cinema. Um it's a movie I think about I think Climax is a movie that is about the cost of of pursuing your art in a huge way. I think it's about the physical it's it's literalizing the physical cost of of of pursuing greatness. That's that's what it's about, you know. And I I kind of just unlocked that. You saying that kind of unlocked it for me now, but it it is about that, and and something like I said, it's about people coming together and creating something and how transcendent that can be. And then how also people can destroy each other. And he kind of said, like, it's not meant to be like preacher didactic in terms of being against drugs. I I don't think it is, I think it's more just a uh a catalyst for this kind of like societal breakdown to happen.
SPEAKER_031000%.
SPEAKER_00And I I um uh is there anything else you want to say about Climax? This is oh sorry, no, continue what were you gonna say?
SPEAKER_03Climax is one of my favorite films. I I implore anyone who hasn't seen it to check out. This is the finest flow to a film. Everything builds upon itself in such a naturalistic way, it is deeply hypnotic. Turn off the lights, watch it loud, and allow yourself to be taken by the experience.
SPEAKER_00Hell yeah. I wanted to ask because when I was looking at the letterbox, your letterbox list of movies that influence KL. One of the ones that I saw, and I was like, I am also I'm a I'm a fan, although I've not seen Baby Invasion, uh, of late stage Vulgar Autor Harmony Corinne. And so you had uh aggro drift. Agro Drift. What was the influence from aggro drift on Kahole? I because I didn't see it immediately.
SPEAKER_03Experimentation and a disregard of what cinema is meant to be.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I I find it that is so deeply inspiring. I mean, the way he talks about it, he trolls, he's a troll. Um but with the way he speaks about it, but there is truth in what is the next thing for cinema.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03A deeply inspiring point.
SPEAKER_00That was what kind of you you took as that's that's the inspiration more than any kind of like uh direct reference, you would say.
SPEAKER_03Uh yeah, I'd say so, but also the flow of just one thing happening and then another thing happening. There's there's not true narrative cohesion. You're just following these characters experiencing a day, or experiencing a few days, as the case may be. And that's why I love about Gasper Noise films, that's why I love the Harmony Kareem's films. Sort of self-re-resolving in a way. The beauty in disregarding what should be done. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00100%. And and and that's one of the things that I I love about you know Noe, and and it's not surprising that you know they've that that they've their friends, um no, not at all. Harmony's latter stuff is like my exception, anyways, because I fucking hate Gen AI, and he does use it in Aggro Drift and in Baby Invasion, and I don't have a good justification for why I hate it, but I allow the films where he uses it. I I don't have a justification. And but what I will say about Aggro Drift is uh I love it, it sucks. No, but it's like it's like it's such like it's such the perfect movie for right now. Because like, on the one hand, if you take it literally, it's such like I'm 14 and this is deep like bollocks, like just like the stuff that Bo the Assassin says, just like it it's such nihilist bullshit. It crosses into comedy that like a hundred percent, yeah. But it's like, is he parodying people could be like, oh, is he parodying like Gen Z culture and and and and the kind of emptiness of this? Yes and no, because I think he genuinely does appreciate these things in cinema, like he's a genuine fan of this stuff, and in that way it enters this kind of like post-irony thing that is like just how the world operates now, you know?
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. As a Gen Zer, this is the Gen Z movie.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, but it's but it's just like I I don't know, like because I I I hang around with with like some Gen Z trans girls, and there's just a point where you're like the the the level of just the post-irony detachment gets to a point where I'm like, I I get it, but like I'm I'm also like sometimes I'm like okay, but like what's sincere? Do you know what I mean? Like, like where where is the line? And I remember someone saying like Spring Breakers was a great parody of like this was I mean, this was over 10 years ago, but it's like someone a friend saying, like, oh, it's a it's a it's a great parody of the YOLO generation. I was like, it's a par it's it's it's celebrating and condemning. It's it's his his work is very like it is that peak thing of like low and high art, there is no distinction.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely, and I think that applies to Casper Nois' films as well. I think that applies to let's go wider Damon Chazelle's films, and that would be a connection I'd make. Babylon and Climax are such similar films, right? Yeah, in a way people don't realize. Um and I absolutely adore breaking down the boundaries of what is high art, what is low art. Art is art, and these are filmmakers who capture that.
SPEAKER_00Um I think like like you know, especially like right now, there are moments where I I I kind of create a s uh a straw man in my head, or straw woman, or straw person of someone who has asked me why at this moment am I as a trans woman focusing a lot on like underground cinema from the two thousand late 90s and early 2000s. But I do feel like I don't know, like there's I I could talk for hours about why I think this stuff is important or why I think of its value, but also it's just like they do like show something of like a nihilistic early 2000s worldview that seems somewhat kind of like quaint and naive in its in its you know in in comparison to where we are now. But I I think like there is value in in art that is has been disregarded a hundred percent and that you know be it for what whether it's just my personality or or what you know what my interests are, but that kind of art is always more interesting to me than stuff that is canonized, um, which is hype is is contradictory because by talking about it in a certain way we are canonizing it, but you know what I mean.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. That genre of filmmaking, the quaintness that you talked about. It comes across so genuine, even though these are films and filmmakers who do have a lot of irony, so good elements there is truth in that irony.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03In a way that few others can capture.
SPEAKER_00100%, yeah. And then I think like you know, ab it's not necessarily a positive thing, but I think like Gaspar's are sorry, I think like Harmony's work does sum up like how we saw the rise of like the alt-right becoming the right that is in power now. Is it like it was that efficient of like are we joking or not that uh was what allowed you know a lot of like the current political uh system to to happen is is this thing of like like I say it's post hit like his uh agro drift is post-irony. It's it there is no sin that you know it's not about sincere or insincere, it's not about uh like I and I say like uh my first review of Aggro Drift, I gave it I didn't rate it um uh because I was like I don't know how to like it's boring at times, like it is boring. Oh yeah, but also like in a way where it just becomes immersive that you just kind of drift along with it, like I how can I say it's bad that's a bad quality? Like it just is a thousand percent.
SPEAKER_03It's such a journey. It captures a vibe no other film has. It is a video game, yeah. It is anti-cinema, it is all these things, but this is Harman Kareen operating on his own level. You know, you you go back to those old Latterman clips where he's doing the post-arony thing before it was cool. I I I came up in the iDub's filthy frank generation. I've seen it. I'm aware of how these things can be harmful, but I would say there's no hate in Harmony Corin's work.
SPEAKER_01No.
SPEAKER_03And I I would say there is hate in Gasper Noé's work, but it's more an observation of the hate that exists within the world rather than being hateful in and of itself.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I I think it's interesting because like I do love the story on Irreversible that he I think it was he he showed an early cut to Dario Argento, and Argento was like, This is great, but they're gonna say that you're homophobic. And so then he digitally inserted a shot of himself jerking off in the in the rectum. I think it's interesting that like with Climax we have so many queer characters, and like where we have like homophobic dialogue and stuff, which I feel is realist. He is kind of he was kind of like I don't know if he was very clearly kind of trying to like nail to the mask how he feels about queer people or that he's not transphobic or homophobic. I don't know if that was his intention or if that was just naturally by being in that scene, that's how it's gonna kind of come about, but it it it is kind of interesting to see that that contrast, you know, between representations of queerness in his work.
SPEAKER_03In the opening scene uh of those characters talking, instantly from the offset, there is a homophobic dialogue, and there's some dialogue that can be seen as ambiguous. But it's it's very much addressed from the offset, and I think that was the right decision. I'm sure he's learned from his films over the years the best way to communicate these things, and that's part of why I love Climax. He's done it, he's communicated everything in such a perfect, naturalistic way.
SPEAKER_00Hell yeah. So, in terms of your own films, I mean, obviously, with asking any filmmaker, it's a lot of it is dependent, but the immediate future and like clan films that you can tell us about.
SPEAKER_03Very dependent. But a music video for Sasha Korn.
SPEAKER_00Hell yeah.
SPEAKER_03Which will be so much fun, I'm sure. I have two finished scripts with Lesbian Vampire. I was trying to explore poetry as film, and with K-Hole, I was trying to explore jazz as film with the flow, and I have two scripts that are somewhere in between. I have a rom-com script, and then I have something more in keeping with I'll tell you the rom com script. It's the story of a trans girl plunged into the world of T4T dating after being voted out of her polycule. Uh uh, who knows? Maybe some of that came from personal experience. And then we have a slightly more serious script that is more in fitting with Lesbian Vampire, as I said, and I am being drawn between the two, of which I produce next, um, based on my mood.
SPEAKER_00Fair enough. Well, you know, thank you for coming on, and and thank you for talking about a filmmaker that I absolutely love. But with Climax, if you go, is Climax a horror movie? I think we can we agree that climax is a horror movie, but also it opened Fright Fests, so I feel like justified in that, you know?
SPEAKER_03Completely a horror movie through three is horrifying. You will be horrified, but with a sincerity that is missing from so much horror, in my opinion. I've had a wonderful time. Thank you for having me. I look forward to hearing the next episode. Absolutely. I I I it was great to just talk about a movie I love. I enjoyed it very much. Thank you.