Unquenchable Fire Podcast

Bipolar Disorder - When Your Brain Betrays You but Christ Doesn’t [Testimony Podcast]

• Colton Kirkpatrick

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0:00 | 1:25:43

Timestamps:
00:00-12:09 Intro & early testimony 
12:09-27:10 Mental health & being diagnosed w/ bipolar disorder
27:10-36:35 Brokenness through suffering
36:35-45:28 Are mental health issues a sign of a lack of faith? 
45:28-56:47 Biblical approach to mental health
56:47-01:03:54 Fasting and mental health
01:03:54-01:10:55 Benefits of exercise and nutrition
01:10:55-01:21:46 Biblical mediation vs other Eastern religions
01:21:46-01:25:44 Ultimate physical and spiritual redemption is in Christ

________________________

What does the Bible say about mental health?

Is anxiety, depression, or bipolar disorder a sign of weak faith… or is something deeper going on?

In this episode of Unquenchable Fire, I sit down with Josh Springer, my former 8th grade basketball coach, business owner, husband, and father, who shares his powerful testimony of being diagnosed with bipolar disorder after years of struggle.

Together, we break down the connection between the body, mind, and soul from a biblical perspective and answer questions many Christians are afraid to ask:

-Is mental illness a sign of a lack of faith?

-Is mental health a spiritual issue, biological issue, or both?

-How should believers think about medication, counseling, and self-care?

-What does the Bible say about suffering, weakness, and trusting God?

This conversation addresses the common belief that “mental illness is just a lack of faith” and replaces it with a deeper, more biblical understanding of how God works through both physical and spiritual brokenness.

If you or someone you love is struggling with mental health, this episode will challenge, encourage, and point you back to the hope we have in Christ.

Thanks for watching and be sure to subscribe if you enjoyed it!

Josh's Email: spraq43@yahoo.com

SPEAKER_00

All right, we're live. Great. Yeah. So uh welcome everybody to the Unquenchable Fire podcast. I'm here with Josh Springer, um, a friend of mine who we actually go way back. So I figure we might as well start at the beginning of uh, well, you know, back when I was in eighth grade. And it when I say that, it sound makes it sound like you're much older than me. Um, but you're not that much older than me. Yeah. And and and I actually want to ask you, do I, and we talked about this before, do I still hold the record at Grace Baptist for most points scored in a game?

SPEAKER_01

As far as I know, you do. 36 points in a game. You beat Howard Lewis, had the record for maybe 20 years before you broke it. And I don't exactly remember the game, but it was a home game. I do remember that. It was a home game. It was it was like your country day or yeshiva. Yeah. And uh it was just close enough that I could keep you in there.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Josh was my eighth-grade basketball coach. Yes. And uh I wanted to, did you have all the stat sheets from like all the years?

SPEAKER_01

Uh from the years, yes. Yes. I remember I think you averaged like 22 points a game that season. It makes me sound like some great basketball player. No, you were a left-handed post player. There's not a lot of left-handed post players. And you rebound, and that is something that is a lost art today. And I see all these coaches talking about all kinds of stuff, all kinds of different plays, and ultimately, I think a third of the points are scored just by somebody rebounding the ball and put it back in.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So rebounding matters. Rebounding matters, and this is great. It bragging rights for me because my two brothers who actually played basketball in college and are both six five, six six, yeah. I've got this on them. You do. I do. You do. I do. So it's it's it's bragging rights for me. Absolutely. Yeah. So outside of eighth grade basketball, uh, I'm really excited to chat with you today because you know, not just your testimony. I love hearing about testimonies and how God has worked in people's life, but your testimony speaks to a much broader issue that's like right at the forefront of culture in America, which is mental health. Yeah. Tens of millions of people struggle with this in the United States, um, you know, hundreds of millions across the world. Uh so it's interesting to hear, will be interesting to hear your perspective as a follower of Christ, how he has worked through your life through this battle that you have had with mental health. So that's kind of the framework for um where what we want to talk about. And and I I just don't hear a lot of conversation around being a Christian and modern mental health.

SPEAKER_01

So Yeah, I think it's it's more and more you're seeing it. And I think maybe Christians are a little late to the game in some circles. Um I think yeah, there's there's more awareness to it now, and I'm happy for that. And I'll do my part to share what I can.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Why do you think Christians are later to the game with this?

SPEAKER_01

Um I'll get this more later, but it's the whole spiritual versus physical. We are body and soul, and uh you can focus on one so much as that you neglect the other. And um, I think maybe we try to spiritualize all mental health issues. There's a lot of the problems then in the mental health world that are related to spiritual things, related to sin, related to just the fallen world we live in. So we'll talk about that, not to discount any of that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

But um, I think maybe there's just more emphasis on that part and not, oh yeah, no, people just have chemical imbalances and biological uh problems. Yeah, right. Uh, just like any other illness you might have.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So yeah, that makes sense. It makes sense. Like you want to focus on the spiritual, you want to focus on the heart. Sometimes you have these chemical issues and issues with your mental health that that it's not like it goes beyond that, but in modern in modern medicine, like that can be solved through some of these modern medications or things that you can um go see your doctor for.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um but sometimes that's not the first thought. Um, and and I don't know if it should be the first thought, but it's not like it should be nothing and discounted either. Right. I think that's the the difference.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, and I and I think that's absolutely right. Where um there's so much in so in the in the secular world, there's all it's all emphasis on drugs. And so from a Christian perspective, perhaps you just you want you want to stay away from that because it's because people are so over medicated. There's something that matters a lot more than your body, it's your soul, um, but you can't neglect the body. And so maybe even it's it's kind of uh in the Christian's world, it's uh it's a reaction to just the other extreme that you're seeing in the sec secular world.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Yeah. So before we get into all that detail, we're gonna talk a lot more about that. Um give just a little snapshot of maybe your upbringing, your background as far as like your testimony goes.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Um, you and I probably share pretty similar testimonies. Uh, we grew up in the same church, Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle, went to the same Christian school. Uh I just graduated a little earlier than you. Uh and uh what year did you graduate? I graduated in 93. Eighth grade. 94. I graduated.

SPEAKER_00

I graduated high school in 2011. So hard lager. You know, never mind, I shouldn't have asked.

SPEAKER_01

Shouldn't have asked. That did not make me feel a lot. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

It's all good.

SPEAKER_01

So, you know, you and I heard a lot of the same things. Um, and I would say that I was just indifferent. It's all good. I'm not like UB U. It works for it works for my parents, it works for this. I'm not opposed to it, obviously. There's benefits to it. But yeah, I'd say indifference. It's cool, it works. So that would have been just just where I was, just floating, just kind of just lukewarm. Lazy river floating along, whatever comes. Yeah. Um, and then yeah, so I hit um really out of high school because even in high school, I still I had friends from school.

SPEAKER_00

I went to Big Springs, so it's not like uh we're just a lot of hicks that uh it's out there in the boondock still, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, and probably more than half of the people in the high school went to church, right? Yeah, at that time. Um, but I still had a uh circle of friends that all were at Grace Baptists in the youth group and all that. So I wasn't gonna float get too far away from that, just doing my thing. But then when I when I went off went to college and I lived at home, but I commuted, yeah, you know, a lot a lot more freedom, get to make decisions. Uh and I would say I I was pretty much what you expect from somebody who's not a Christian in college and just doing their thing, and you know, yeah, you can imagine all that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So um what happened though is I had a I haven't had a friend um from Grace Bath from the Christian school who and and it was really a remarkable story of her life just because she had some learning disabilities. And um, but she she was able to to graduate, do quite well educationally eventually, is now she's teaching um as part of um teaching part of Bible groups. And uh again, I lost contact with her, so I didn't know all the details, but I actually saw her a couple weeks before she left for Indonesia on a missions trip where she was going to be doing uh, I believe a Sunday school lessons, that kind of format with a lot of kids. And this is somebody that you know I was the most quiet person in the world when I knew her. Um and she was doing that, and unfortunately uh she and another young lady were uh they were wiped, washed away in a flash flood on a on a hike and uh and drowned. So that um that had some impact on me. Uh my grandma also had recently died, so there I'm just kind of getting confronted by death. And I had a friend at um Dickinson who was a psych major, and she of course has said, Well, you know, death's just the natural end of everything. Yeah, yeah, that doesn't work because it's not growing up in a church, you knew that I knew there's there's basic things I knew. So death is not the the natural end, death came as a as a because of sin. So yeah, I couldn't get past that. And uh and just her death brought me back into a little bit into a circle of friends from the Christian school. It's kind of cool even to this day. I have a pretty I think there were maybe around 10 of us that graduated. I have pretty good contact with uh more than half of them, uh including one of them lives three houses away from me. So I graduated from the Christian school. So, but it brought me back to that circle, and and that was um, I mean, God definitely used that. Uh I can I wouldn't say I know the moment I was saved, but I do remember sitting at a card table on a weekend, you know, drinking some beers, playing poker or whatever. Just, you know, uh casual party hang. And I just I was like, I am wasting my life. Just wasting my life. It just became so obvious. And um, you know, I I I was saved, you know, recently, pretty soon after that, I would say. Um really just the verses that really stuck with me um would be at the end of John 6. That's the feeding of the 5,000, and then some of the disciples, not his disciples, but some of the crowd leaves him. They see there's no more free food. And uh he asked his the 12, like, Will you desert me also? Jesus asked them that. And and I think it was Peter, but they said, Lord, well else, where else would we go? You have the words of eternal life, and just that mindset. And I'm here trying to find that purpose wherever, somewhere, and I keep coming back to that, and that, and yeah, though the the reading of the word, the preaching of the word, very important in my salvation, and then just at that point, everything I knew growing up came back and became really important in my life. So give your kids that foundation. Yeah, teach catechism questions to kids, teach them the stories, get them to memorize verses. Um you don't know what it where it will uh help them down the road. But I can't, I'm 45. I I can't learn much. I can't teach this old dog too many new tricks. Yeah, but the things I learned when I was young, I remember them pretty easily.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, train up a child in the way they should go. So when they're old, they will not depart from it. I that resonates with me so much. Same kind of story. Um, you know, so you were that was in college that you were you had that experience.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that was right coming just right at the end of college.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so you had this new kind of direction and purpose and meaning. Um and then what shifted as far as maybe we're fast forwarding to to more or or too far, but I'm curious like the the mental health, like what what changed when did you first realize like something wasn't right as far as mental health?

SPEAKER_01

There was I've after becoming a Christian, there was always this more focus on I gotta do, I gotta do, I gotta do. Not I gotta pray, not I gotta read, not I gotta just sit and wait. It was do do do. Um as somebody with bipolar, that now that I know I'm bipolar, um that makes sense to want to be at this manic. Uh I always say I have the fun fun kind of bipolar. I like to be at the manics. My wife doesn't think it's that fun, but uh, I like to be more the manic than the depressed. Um but that makes more sense. So I was, yeah, I always wanted to be involved with way too many things. And I had I uh first I had some um autoimmune problems, which my family certainly has some history of that. And um that eventually, the physical problems, um, got you know, started having a nice relationship with my mental problems, and they got together and decided to just you know throw my body out of in out of whack. Yeah, and uh that would be about six years ago. So, what happened six years ago, about now?

SPEAKER_00

Six years ago, COVID, just global pandemic shutdown on the desk, yeah, complete societal.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so you know, I'm running hot already, I'm not doing things I should be doing. I did have a a close friend die at that in that time frame too, uh, you know, same age as me. Um some was on my basketball team, so you know, trying to just help help there a little bit, but just just running hot in so many different ways. And yeah, pandemic. Um, and so it went from problems that were somewhat manageable to eventually complete nervous breakdown. Wow, complete, just in and out of the in and out of the hospital, like emergency room. I didn't I didn't stay in the hospital, but in and out of the emergency room. I mean, I had two trips in one night, went there, they was like, Do you want to leave or you want to stay? I said, I'm good. Go home, passed out, smashed my head into a tile, broke like broke some tile off the wall and was back in the emergency room.

SPEAKER_00

Well, I think it might be helpful too. You said bipolar is what you're diagnosed with. So I mean, there's like a when I think bipolar, I think like someone who's a hothead, angry one second, and then they're completely kind of just depressed or normal, like kind of normal one second, and then boom, they can be set off at any uh with anything at the drop of a hat. You know, that's kind of like what I think of. I know that's not the complete story of it. So I'm curious when you say manic versus depressed, like explain bipolar a little bit.

SPEAKER_01

So I can only explain what what I know because forget about bipolar, all the mental health. I mean, it is we are fearfully and wonderfully made. The brain is so complex that it's even in the world of bipolar, that there's there's more than one type of bipolar, and it can be um it can look differently, it can be different degrees. So, you know, I can only speak to what I speak to, but for me, I I think it's almost that I fight off the depression. It's almost as if the manic is a response to depression. Now that's not actually correct if you read all the studies, but where I just, yeah, I want to be up here running, running hot, and then my body crashes. Okay, and now I'm in the depression because I can't be up here really running hot all the time.

SPEAKER_00

Um when you say running hot, like I want to do everything, being productive. I'm all in on it. You're a father, you're a husband, a husband, like you got things to do. You own your own business.

SPEAKER_01

The problem becomes none of you don't care about those things that you should care about. Oh, because that's because that's oh, I got that. Like, give me 10 more things to do. Yeah, and it's like, no, I don't have any of that, and I'm now neglecting that to go after 10 other things. Um, but yeah, you just keep keep it coming, just keep it coming. I'll take I'll take it all on. Um, that's manic. And you just you you want to be that way. It's you you're loving it, you feel so good. Yeah, uh, at times I've had to take steroids just for different things, um, you know, sinus stuff or whatever. Oh, love it, love it. Let's just let's go. I'm like invincible. Uh but I love that. And then body crashes or the weather changes. And it's like, I don't even want to get out of bed. What why are you bothering me?

SPEAKER_00

So it can be small things like that.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, oh yeah. When it when it changes, when it happens, it happens. It's just like, why are you bothering me? Why this is so stressful? Like, who cares? You just it's crazy. It's like, you know, the one of the bigger problems with that is okay, I've started several things that now it's like why why are why are you bothering me with this? I don't know, because you made us do all this stuff. Yeah, that I would have that. People made I made people do a whole bunch of stuff, and then it's like, why are you guys doing this? That's that's part of it, and um, I definitely would be more towards the manic than the depressed, but I sometimes think for myself, I just I go manic to fight off the depressive depression side of it, would be kind of how I feel more, but again, it's different for everybody. But bipolar originally would have been called manic depression, I think that was the term, something like that used when it was kind of first diagnosed in the 40s, 50s. So it is, it's two yeah, two extremes, right?

SPEAKER_00

So I mean this happened six years ago, so it's not like it it's that long ago. And you from from when you were saved in college, I mean you lived 20 plus years to where this wasn't a the one big deal. What like what kind of spurred that on?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so one, just like I'm assuming many other problems we have, they get worse the older you get. So something I could manage at 30 could make things go haywire at 40. Um and I probably until I start developing the autoimmune issues, um, yeah, I just I power through a lot of stuff.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Apparently I have a pretty high high tolerance for pain. Uh I don't think I do anymore, but I did. And I was a glutton for it. And um, so it is it's it's hard. That's a great question that I honestly don't entirely know. Um other than to say you get older, things become more complicated and more problems than they were when you were younger. But six years ago, those two things, the the autoimmune and the bipolar, the mental issues, just they just got together and started.

SPEAKER_00

It finally it finally like came to a head where something was happening.

SPEAKER_01

They just got together and decided to.

SPEAKER_00

What were those initial like signs where like, all right, I need to seek help for this, like professional help for this.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so um at first I was just viewing it solely as a physical problem because um it was manifesting itself as a physical problem. Um and when I say by that, I could one one minute, one day, one minute, I could be thinking, oh, I have diverticulitis. Another minute, oh wait, I think I have a hernia. Oh wait, I think I have kidney stones. Oh wait, just all these different things, um just kind of like intestines, bladder, that's kind of where the autoimmune issues were. So kind of just starts messing with your brain. Um so that's how that's kind of how it first was. So go to the doctor. Um eventually I start seeing uh kind of health and wellness doctor, Turnpaul, give him a shout out, neural mechanics work. Yeah, um you know, one of the problems with medicine right now is they only look at part of the body. And so going to a holistic medicine provider, um, you can get a better picture of what's going on. And yeah, I did some things there that were probably a complete waste of time as they're trying to cipher through all this, but um, they really they really got me, they got me stabilized. I wouldn't say I was anyway good, they got me stabilized. And then it became more of a question, okay, why can't I remain stable? And that's because of the mental problems. Yeah, that's that's because my brain is still doing everything it wants to do, and just the brain wanting to be manic, wanting to go that way, actually just created the physical problems to be worse. I mean, you're just ramping up my body that needs to calm down, and it's just getting ramped up. So yeah, that's and that, and then you know, it looks like um panic attacks. Uh I mean, there's times where I'm like hitting myself in the head, telling my brain to stop it. It's just saying things, can't get can't get it to stop.

SPEAKER_00

You told me you were like bedridden for a period of time.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, whether that was from a pain standpoint, uh Um or just what else am I gonna do? Yeah. Yeah, it it's I don't even go into I wouldn't talk about that much just because it it is it's there's a little PTSD, maybe. I don't want to take you know, yeah, yeah. People have that for all kinds of reasons, far worse than mine. But there's almost like, wow, if I start thinking about some of that stuff, it's just it brings it back. And could I called it catastrophizing? I don't that's probably just made up that word, where I turned all kinds of things into catastrophes, yeah, or potential catastrophes, or what's going on. This is end of the world stuff, of course, again, not hard to do during COVID.

SPEAKER_00

Right. It kind of felt if everything was exacerbated, like as far as mental issues, physical issues. Yeah, nobody knew what was going on. We were being lied to, all this stuff, you know.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, but I but I just couldn't I couldn't rebound. That was and so that led me with Turnpaul to um seeing their psychologist working through some of that stuff. Now we're getting more into environmental and and and mental. Um and I was doing relatively well grading on a scale, better in the summer, worse in the winter. And then um I decided to let me think what I was I was last this past not this winter, so winter of 2024 into 2025. Uh coaching multiple basketball teams. I was on the school board, which I was a treasurer, running a business with uh just a lot of problems that winter to sort out. Uh my my parents had some different health concerns. Um yeah, I'm just I I I the list would go on if I kept thinking about it. Yeah. So again, manic just top of the world. I got this all figured out, and then it just the body just shut down. Just this, it was, it would have been a right about this time of year. Because again, something like the time changing by an hour, daylight savings, that throws me for a loop. Even that I don't know when it's 80 degrees one day and 25 the next day. Yeah, good old central PA throws me for a loop. And so all those things on top of everything I was doing. And yeah, I just I just did it again. Total, total nervous breakdown. Probably three to four weeks, yeah. Of just um in bed, shaking, um, yeah, panic attacks, like on the hour. Again, just like hit myself in the head trying to get my brain to stop doing what it's doing. So that kind of stuff. Um, and then I at that point I went to uh just my general practitioner's office, but uh a different um doctor who had a little more experience with that, and she started putting me on some of the drugs, not actually diagnosing me bipolar, um, but just gotta get you stable. I know that what's gonna make you stable, and we'll take it from there. And and then at that point, really, my psychologist was, yeah, I think it's safe to say you're bipolar. That's we were kind of there. Yeah. And so um that's that's where I just that's kind of the the regimen I was having at that point. I'm seeing a holistic doctor to kind of make sure I'm not so not so often, but to make sure all those normal stuff in the body is working the way it's supposed to be. Uh, I'm being prescribed drugs and I'm seeing a psychologist. And eventually I didn't see much need in the the psychologist. Um, and I switched to a uh therapist at a at a Christian, it's at uh Him, in Him Ministries. Yeah. Over in Camp. They have a Carlisle office, but also Camp Hill. Um, I thought that was more helpful because ultimately I got to this point, and I think this is really helpful for anybody dealing with mental health issues. You've got to realize um there are physical issues, biological issues going on, there are environmental issues going on, and then there are spiritual issues going on. And so by going to see a Christian therapist, you know, I'm like, I'm not getting I'm not getting answers to that. Am I general practitioner or the psychologist? And then just some of the changes I need to make included you know, just counsel about church life, uh family life. Yeah, I'm I'm pretty involved in in different ministries and sure. Oh, oh yeah, I was doing, I decided to do youth group again that that one year whenever things uh just more on fell apart. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. Well, that's definitely what I'm interested in talking about is the the spiritual aspect of this because you were dealing with the environmental, the physical, biological stuff there. You know, you were starting to get prescribed medication, but then you had someone that was also in your life as this kind of Christian therapist. You know, so I'm curious how your faith was wrapping up into all this and trying to, you know, even basic questions like God, why is this happening? You know, because there's all sorts of you know, scripture about you know suffering and perseverance through suffering and all these things, but you're you're like physically in bed shaking. You know, that's like an extreme level of suffering, um, as far as like mental health goes. So, how does your faith wrap up in this?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's no, that's um any the blessing of any kind of physical problem is you'll pray more, even a non-Christian will start praying. So you'll pray more. And um I remember in a conversation among a couple people, but my my boss when I was a kid was talking with somebody else, and they were talking about oh it just you know what I was going through problems, and you know what I miss now that I'm better. I miss my prayer life because you just you see once once you're better, you seem a little less needy. Um and my boss was saying, yeah, you it because he had so many health problems, but it just yeah, you just there's something special about prayer life whenever you're going through it. So um that was you know, that was that was a big help. Um, I think understanding that you're not in control of much of anything is really helpful. Um because what I just said to a non-Christian would be like, oh, that's terrifying. Say that to you, you're like, yeah, that's great because God's in control. I'm so glad I'm not in control, you know. That's um that coming coming to that to grips with that. Um how did you come to grips with that? Like, what was the point that you were like, you know what, God, I gotta throw my hands here. Well, God just breaks you. Like, even if I were to backtrack to when I first had problems, I turned it was right when I turned 40. I had said all along, you know, I'm I got a plan for life. I'm gonna slow down to this pace at 40. I'm gonna I need to prioritize this and this, and uh, you know, I just blew right through all those barriers. And yeah, God just breaks you. He just tells you this is how it's gonna be. And and that's really what happened. He just it just broke me to the point where no, I just okay, all right, I'm not in control. I'll I'll I'll I'm willing to admit it. And I definitely have the Martha personality versus the Mary personality. I I would rather be the person in the kitchen just serving, servant than sit and listen. Um and you know, just like Jesus had to say at the Martha, Martha, Martha, you're worried about many things. Yeah, I kind of had to be whacked alongside the head about that. And guess what? I still gotta get whacked upside the head like daily about this stuff.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Or let or my wife waxed me upside the head, anyways, and that makes it makes it easy. It's a good wife. Yeah, you know, because that's that's always gonna be there where I just I want to go, go, go.

SPEAKER_00

Um yeah, well, it's a difference, like you said, as a Christian, you have an understanding that God is in control, that you're going through this hardship for a reason, and that's to draw you closer to him, rely more on him. Yeah, and if but if you don't have that, then what do you stand on? Well, you stand on the medication, you stand on the doctors telling you what you can and can't do, and you stand on those stuff. So that's a blessing to have that, yeah. But not a lot of people have that mindset because they're not thinking about it uh from that Christian lens. Yeah, and that makes a difference.

SPEAKER_01

Definitely um, and I think just even just knowing you have a soul just you know it, you know there's something spirit in your you are a body and a soul. You have a spirit, you know these things is very helpful through all this because you just can't for the non-Christian, they just they don't have all the pieces of the puzzle. So they're trying hey, you can't make you can't finish this puzzle if you only got half the pieces. And um so the not understanding that and even just knowing there's something there's eternal, it's not just here and now, it's it's it's eternal. We all are um there's a spiritual world, it would go on into eternity. It just put I think it put it puts some some restraints around where where you where your mind could go in the here and now. I mean, I wouldn't say I was ever suicide, I was never suicidal. Yeah, um could I've had suicidal thoughts? Probably. Um or what would you know what would that look like? But uh every just like in any part of Christian life, you know you're gonna be accountable for this stuff to the God of all, and it's going to matter into eternity. I think even just as you're dealing with these mental problems, it's not just it's not just in this moment, it's in the the view of uh eternity.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and I mean going back to like why there's suffering, why you're experiencing this stuff, it's because of sin. Yeah, it's because we are fallen creatures that that need a savior. And in your life, it's you were broken to the point through this mental health struggle that you needed to throw your hands up in complete surrender. Yeah, and that looks different for for anybody or for everybody. But the the prayer and the hope is that you finally get to that point where you're like, I need something bigger than myself. I need I need Jesus, who is the ultimate. Kind of he he mends us, he heals us, he he pushes us, he twists us and turns us into what what he wants us to be so that we can best serve him. Yeah, you know, and that that's uh if you can't walk backward to that kind of origin, then like you're saying, the floor kind of falls out from under you.

SPEAKER_01

There's a yeah hopelessness, it's gonna crumble, it's all gonna come down at some point in time. Um that's where you see real despair in people, not depression, but despair. You think of the difference between Peter and Judas, you know, and the different types of remorse. One led to repentance, restoration, one led to despair and suicide.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's a great example. Um, and they were both followers of Jesus for years, literally by his side. Yeah, that's amazing.

SPEAKER_01

I I would always um, you know, I'll just actually I'll stop for just one second and just make it just make a disclaimer here for anybody listening. You know, when you call when you call the doctor's office and they say, you know, this is an emergency, please hang up and dial 911, right? I mean, we are talking about a lot of things and will, but if you're at that point where you're starting to have suicidal thoughts and so forth, I mean you need you need to reach out right away to professionals. Yeah, yeah, and you need to deal with that because I can only imagine how dark that can be. Yeah. Um and I'll also say this as somebody that's bipolar. Um one thing I did after once I was diagnosed was I got rid of all my firearms. And I'll just say that just as something I you know, you can have firearms and be bipolar, I suppose, but I don't think you I mean like I'll give you ten thousand dollars if you can find a uh uh uh book out there that says, hey, having guns and being bipolar is a good idea. You know, so there are I just as you know, we're because we were thinking about suicidal thoughts and views and so forth. There's something practical even there, you're just thinking about um what do you want to have around you, what do you want to have access to if you're somebody in your family that's got these problems, how you want to protect them from themselves and you from them. I mean, yeah, we read stuff about this all the time, right? And so um, yeah, there's there's all there's a spectrum, there's levels, and I just wouldn't want us to be talking at this level where where I'm at versus where somebody's got significantly major pro major problems and needs that help and needs it immediately, and think that, oh yeah, what I'm saying today is going to help with those problems.

SPEAKER_00

So yeah, I just wanted to say that there's a practical nature to this struggle as well, like you're saying. Um curious your thoughts on mental health and a and like a a lack of faith. You know, people might say yeah that oh you're you're you don't have enough faith, therefore you're struggling in this way. And I don't believe that's that's not biblical, but it's I mean when you look back in the Bible, so many of the Elijah, David, um that these these men that we hold up in such high regard, they struggled. They struggled not just with physical things or certain temptations, but they struggled with depression or some sort of just like you know, um emotional anguish, you know, and and that's you can feel that when you're reading the Psalms in David, uh, when he's writing to God, like God, why have you forsaken me? Where are you, God? You know, and so I could imagine that feeling it'd be easy to point to a Christian and say, Hey, your your faith should get you out of this, shouldn't it? You know, so like how do you grapple with that?

SPEAKER_01

Well, a couple things. One, it just to go on continue with your point. Um, you know, Jesus says, My God, my guy, why are you forsaking me? Obviously, that's not a lack of faith issue. I mean, there are times when you're just in the fire by the providence of God. He he wants you there, he wants you to cry out to him. And that crying out is faith, it's not lack of faith, it is faith. Right. So, so just kind of to continue your thought. But I would say, um, you know, it's interesting. I I just was looking at this recently, that question, and uh, you get some of these polls that some some of the Christian groups that do different polls, and yeah, still it was something like 35-40 percent of the polls, people they polled still believe you know, some level mental health issues are lack of faith issues. Wow. Um and and here's the thing, it could be a lack of faith issue. Okay, like anxiety could be a lack of faith issue, depression could be a sin issue. Um going back to that what I said, you know, where I was trying to differentiate chemical problem, biological problems, environmental problems, and sin problems, right? There it could be any of those. Yes, sure. You could have mental health problems because of sin.

SPEAKER_00

Um you mean like specifically specific sin. Yeah, absolutely. You're not repentant.

SPEAKER_01

I'm depressed because I'm ashamed. Well, why are you ashamed? Well, because I'm doing some kind of sin that makes me ashamed. Yeah, so it certainly can be the case. Um, and it's it's yeah, it's worth examining for yourself. Um you know, you get into some physical things like uh drug and alcohol addiction, pornography, like they have there are biological effects to your body because of those sin issues.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_01

Um, it could be anything, it could be gambling, whatever it is. They can create the they're getting those dopamine imbalances or the need for more dopamine. You know, that can so you could be having physical reactions to sin issues. So I don't want to discount any any of that because I think you'll you'll have a lot of the other extreme of, yep, just medicate, medicate, medicate so people don't feel right. So they're dumb. So they don't have to deal with sin, deal with this fallen world. So you have that, but I mean, honestly, I what what some of the stuff I've heard, I I'm offended by it whenever people talk about lack, lack of faith, this mental issues, or lack of faith. I'm offended by it. And if you know what goes on in the brain, my brain, and I'm not even that bad compared to some people, this is not about faith. There's something things aren't firing on all cylinders, and you start looking at it, it is you know, bipolar disorder is a disorder of the neurotransmitters in the brain. That's about the biggest scientific term I'm gonna use. Okay, I I had to like recite that in my head a couple times. I think I said it correctly. Yeah, okay, because I I do not do science. Yeah. Um, if you had uh uh if you knew somebody with Parkinson's, and maybe you do, would you would you tell them that their Parkinson's is a lack of faith issue? Right. You wouldn't would you be okay with them taking medicine? Oh Alzheimer's. Would you have a problem? Well, you think, oh boy, it's just my grandpa's just lack of faith. He can't remember anything. He's having those are this those are problems with neurotransmitters. Um seizures. Yeah, like the drugs I take are the same drugs to treat seizures. You're telling people with seizures, oh you it's a lack of faith issue. Like there, these are biological and somewhat hereditary problems. Um so to it's honestly, yeah, I said it's insulting to say it's a lack of faith issue at that level because this is this is no different than uh than many other diseases that need to be treated, and thankful we can treat them.

SPEAKER_00

So yeah, like and it's about how we handle them, I think, also like thinking about Paul and the thorn that he had in his flesh. Yeah. And this is I mean it bothered him to the point where he was writing about it and telling others about it, and it it was but he all he followed up that verse, it was um second Corinthians. Yeah, yeah. Um let me just pull it up because it's it's really good because um it just reminds us that like there's a way to deal with this stuff. Like the recipe for dealing with all this stuff is in scripture. And um was it 2 Corinthians? Um I think I had it. Yeah, 12.

SPEAKER_01

2 Corinthians is all the farther I'm gonna get to.

SPEAKER_00

So hang on, I'll find this because I want to read it's important. Um, here we go. 12 7. Paul writes, to keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me. Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me, but he said to me, My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness. Like that's the antidote, understanding that God's grace is sufficient. Now it's easy for me to say sitting here because I don't have Parkinson's or I don't have seizures every day, but I've had problems in my life where I've had to throw up my hands and say, God, like, why? Why are you doing this? Why is this happening to me? And what do I need to do? How do I need to position my heart so that I understand fully with all of my heart that your grace is sufficient and your power is made strong in my weakness?

SPEAKER_01

And there was purpose to all that. It was it was purposefully part of his plan to bring himself glory. Yeah. By making Paul say your grace is sufficient. That's a hard thing to reconcile.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's a hard one to reconcile. I hear that from non Christians a lot. Like, why does your God allow you to suffer? Why does he allow bad things to happen? That's a classic question from someone who doesn't believe. Um And as we suffer, so that we can give God the glory and understand that He is in complete control. Yeah. And His grace is sufficient. What Jesus did on that cross is what we need, is the antidote. Yeah. Um, did you have a moment where you've felt that change where you're like, okay, this is the moment where God, you this is your grace is sufficient?

SPEAKER_01

I would say no. I would say I've had I'm pretty stubborn and I'm pretty, yeah, I am pretty messed up. I am, you know, up and down a lot. So a moment, no. I think I just have to keep coming back to that moment.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Uh man, I'm yeah, for me, I need there's like a whole barn full of two by fours, and God's just been slowly whacking me on the head with one after another. I'm getting there. But um, but it but it always comes back to the same thing. I mean, that's there's that's not gonna, there's not gonna be another answer. It's not like it's get me back to focus back on this, and and focusing issues is a big problem too with with bipolar um and other mental health issues. So I just gotta get myself back in focus. I'll read a verse, some verses for us. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um you know, I think you just want to talk about mental health and um you know biblical approach to to dealing with just mental health for anybody. Yeah, this is uh Philippians 4. Um, I'll start in verse 6. Philippians 4, 6. Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplications with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your heart and your minds in Christ Jesus. And it says, Finally, brothers, whatever is true, what whatever, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. And so um it's not it's not just get the bad thoughts out of your head. Yeah, it's not um empty yourself. It's it's uh turn from one direction to it to another direction. Repent, turn from, turn towards. And uh mental health, yeah, it's focus on the what's noble, pure, excellent, and you're gonna find that in God's word, you're gonna find that in the person of Jesus Christ. And that is going to help a lot. And it's so easy, I think, um, especially well, either manic or depression. You're you're you're gonna try it's it's just like a drug addiction. You can need more to get that same high every time, right? And so you're going to tend towards just yeah, whatever that addiction is, or whatever's giving you making you feel good when you're manic or helping you bring out of depression, you're just gonna want more and more and more of that. Yeah, um, so so you know, as a bipolar person, I think addiction is probably um a little more of a danger. I I just assume because you're trying to keep getting whatever it is that to keep the manic going, keep the depression off, or whatever it is. Um, and here it says, you know, focus on it doesn't say get rid of those thoughts, it says focus on this. Yeah, right. It's not an empty only, it's a it's a fill with the right thing.

SPEAKER_00

I was just gonna say it's fill yourself with Christ. You're you're sitting here and you're not in the position you were six years ago. Yeah, but like your reliance on God is it he forced you to rely on him more. Do you think he is like healed you in a way that the other medicines and the other doctors couldn't have? I mean, obviously he can, but would you say you're healed?

SPEAKER_01

The worry aspect to to combat that, the catastrophizing I said, that goes that that I wouldn't say I've been healed of it, and actually that's something to say. I to encourage anybody who's dealing with mental health issues. Your goal, a good goal is to be above 80%, 80% of the time. Okay. Uh mental health is not a destination, it's a direction. Like you want to just be headed in the right direction because you're not gonna get there. Not in this lifetime. I always say we live in a that's why I say a lot, we live in a sin-cursed world waiting for the redemption of all things. Like it's not gonna, yeah, this stuff's not going away now. And it's certainly the mental health issues. You want to just be headed in the right direction and don't don't beat yourself up when you're having those bad times because they will come no matter what. But I would say that the worry here says, Do not be anxious, do not be anxious. Like that has been helped a lot. The more I pray, the more I focus on God's word, his promises. That I'm not in control. That in that area, and again, healed, there's no it's it's not yeah, right. Again, it could be miraculous. Um, I don't want to ever discount the miraculous, but that's what it would be. It has to be something miraculous, you have to change my my body. But um in that in that area of worry, um yes, this is it's helped, it has been helped a lot as I think about what the right things and know who's in control of these things.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. You referenced, we talked earlier, um, just referenced like the the chief end of man, the catechism that is the first catechism. What is man's chief end? What are we supposed to do here? And it's to glorify God and enjoy him forever. And and mental health issues seem to take away from that, or they remove that meaning, they can remove that meaning from your life through the suffering that you're going through. Um so as you've come out of that, have you had this renewed sense of meaning and purpose now in Christ? Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01

Um I think that kind of goes back to it goes back to what I said earlier about the eternal, just even just this knowing the eternal. Um that really helps with just purpose, generally speaking. To know um what you're doing now. I'm sorry, I'm about to like I'm about to make a gladiator quote.

SPEAKER_00

You are a movie buff, so quotes are allowed. That's a great movie.

SPEAKER_01

What you do now at Echoes in Eternity. Uh it's a good quote. It's a good quote. It's a good quote. Um yeah, just I've now I've totally forgotten the question.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, think about like the way the way I'm thinking about too is like, is we can rely to there's a verse I did pull out because I thought it was interesting. Is Ephesians 2, 10 says, we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God has prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Yeah. And what sticks out to me there is God has prepared like everything, but specifically in this kind of conversation, is he's prepared what we're gonna do. And he's prepared the suffering that we are going to endure. He's prepared the jobs that we're gonna perform, the spiritual gifts that we have that we can go out and use in his name. So, like that preparation. Um to me, that's a comfort, you know. And just my my life, my walk in the last few years has been more. Um, I've been able to just like sit with that and be less like, what do I have to do? I gotta do this, I gotta accomplish this goal, I gotta create a new goal and accomplish that. And it's like instead, that's what I want to do. But what does God want me to do? Because my identity as a Jesus follower is in him and what he has prepared for me, not what I have prepared for for myself. So I find a lot of comfort in that, and and I feel like um that's a big turning point. Yeah, that's the gospel turning point.

SPEAKER_01

Yep, and I turn that direction and I pull back and then I turn again. I mean, it's it is a real struggle to do that. Um what I was going to say now that I remember it, when you brought up the catechism question, um glorify God and enjoy Him forever. I was I was thinking about the forever. Um when you have that mindset, then something temporal, something now doesn't matter as much when you start thinking about eternity. Um then there's little things, well, yeah, I'm not able to enjoy God now the way I want to, which honestly just means because I'm not getting what I want. Because it's easy for somebody in my probably easy for people, period, to just you know, I'm more than halfway done with my life, most likely. I'm I'm not making a 90. Not the way I live, not what I did. Um that's not gonna happen. So it's it's that that alone there can start leading towards depression and what's this is all meaningless and yeah, what's the purpose? But and then you then you compound that with like, wow, this is all I got, and it's not even going well. But when you start going back to that perspective of forever, um well, it can change it can shift from depression to hope.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, you know, and like we have as Christ followers, we have a hope in eternity, it's a good thing, it's a thing we look forward to, you know, and it but it's I struggle with that, you know. I don't I want to be with Jesus, you know. I I I love Jesus and I wanna be with him forever, but and I feel like the only reason I want to be on this earth is for my family, you know, and for just whatever God wants me to do while I'm here. You know, and so if I'm letting all these other things get in the way of that simple thought, yeah, then I gotta I gotta draw back from those things that are that are clogging up my brain, you know. And I can only imagine in your case with bipolar, the the the cloudiness that comes with that, like put you in bed.

SPEAKER_01

Cloudiness is a great word, just uh yeah, it's just thoughts are all over the place. And what is there's so many of them.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, what what is uh what's your wife like how's how's she been through all this? And like what's that relationship been like, the dynamic?

SPEAKER_01

You know, I think the best blessing from her is um a little bit of the the tough love that's needed. Um and and I would say this for for anybody that's trying to help somebody out but has mental health issues. It is you have to have uh discernment with when to be understanding and when to be like, no, we're gonna get you up and you're gonna go walking. Um and and just push those things like no, you gotta it it is in your head. Yeah, you can't I can't snap out of it, but it is it is in my head, and there's other parts of my body, and we can get those parts moving, yeah. And she's done really well helping with that, and just also just I mean, she had to do so much when I was in my worst states. I mean it's it's amazing. Just the resilience and the ability to handle so many different things when I'm just out of it.

SPEAKER_00

It's a special kind of love, you know? Yeah, yeah, for sure. Another thing I'm interested in too is, and we kind of touched on this before the medical help that you sought, the medication, the therapy, um something that has come up on my radar recently that I've been really convicted of is fasting. And I don't know if you have an opinion on fasting or if you've ever fasted, but it's something that like I feel convicted of because I think the Bible is pretty clear. Like Jesus says, when you fast. And and in Matthew 6, he talks about like it's an assumption that you should be fasting. And modern Christianity has kind of maybe uh forgotten about fasting because it's not all that I mean, I don't it's not all that common to me. I don't see a lot of people fasting as making that part of their regular um kind of habit, um, like prayer, you know, or like reading scripture and and fast. I think it's a combination of all these things. And the reason I'm bringing that up is because the physical benefits of fasting, I think, are are substantial if done in a biblical and godly way, but it's not about the physical, also. Like it's about your heart posture when you are depriving your physical body um of what it needs, so that you can say to your flesh, I am coming before the Lord broken, like without sustenance, so that I can the real me is now on my knees in front of you, God. You know, and and there's something to that, and it's just been on my my mind a lot lately. Um, have you ever fasted? And do you think that mental health and fasting in the right way can can there can be a benefit from that?

SPEAKER_01

I'm just gonna talk about personal experience because I boy, this is I have no idea.

SPEAKER_00

Like a doctor's not gonna tell you to go fast. Like you have my ball, go fast. But what does the Bible say? That's what I'm trying to get at.

SPEAKER_01

Like, you know, I'm trying to figure that out. So here's my issue to not to not cop out. Um I wake up in the morning, I have three eggs, uh, a package of salmon, some beans, and two pieces of like hearty toast. All right, okay. That's like seven a. That's like seven a. No, no, no, no, that's like 7 a.m. I'm doing an apple and a protein bar by 10. Okay. Um I'm getting to a point. It sounds like me. Okay. So, and with all that said, if by two o'clock I haven't eaten lunch, I'm actually shaking. And I actually have to remind myself, oh, wait, this isn't anxiety, this is actually just something with my blood sugar or whatever. But I've had my blood sugar sugar tested. So yeah, so the answer is no, I don't. Um, sounds like a great idea for you. No, I no, the ben the everything you said is absolutely right. I've just never really done it, so I don't want to speak to it because ultimately, like I said, I'm I'm physically sliding down, actually mentally sliding down if I don't keep fuel in the body. Right. Um, it really does mess with me. When you got enough problems going on, don't don't add another one to the equation for me. Yeah. But but but it's also a valid point. Um, there's other things, there's other ways in which I could fast, but I'll put that in quotations because I think that's probably what people will do, you know, whatever they gave up for Lent, or they'll do other things, and those are good, but I think you're onto something that the fasting is a particular thing, it's depriving your body of food for a time to get yourself focused. Um and really lean upon, yeah, God is this provider. But for me, I deprived myself of food for a time, and I am yeah going downhill mentally. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So it's not, it's just not I'm not doing it. It's not like breaking through that barrier would be beneficial in your mind.

SPEAKER_01

Like I don't know, because I'm not gonna try, because like I said, I got enough problems, I'm not gonna try to make more. Yeah, um right, right. And and you know, part of it too is like I'll do I'll do whatever it takes just to keep myself at a level, not for even just for me, but I got a family, I got a business, like yeah, yeah. Um so I really try to try to keep trying to do that.

SPEAKER_00

That's where the buck stops with me every time I think about fasting. And this is I think why God has been putting on my heart, is because I am realizing that it's something that has been missing from my spiritual walk that I need to embrace. And it doesn't look the same for everybody. There isn't a specific particular prescription on how to fast. Um, I think it's just a it's a it's a fasting tells the flesh that I have authority over you, I have authority over my body, and it denies the flesh what it wants most, nutrition. Um, and it groans and it I listened to uh a Philip Anthony Mitchell podcast who's a great pastor, and he said this. He's he said, like your body groans, it literally like your stomach grumbles, like it, like it wants food. But once it's quieted, that real spiritual man comes out and is humbled before God because you are in need, you're not in need of your food, you're in need of spiritual sustenance in that moment, right? I think that's where the power comes from, you know, and there's tons of scripture and stories of entire groups of people fasting and pleading before God, you know, and it's just something that I've just completely neglected. And it's been I've been hearing it on so many different things, and scripture verses have been popping up, like verse of the day stuff. I'm just like, it's in my face. So I'm like, I want to figure this out, you know, and God's telling me, hey, you gotta trust me on this because it's in my word.

SPEAKER_01

You know, so it's it has to be a spiritual discipline. It's it's listed, it's kind of it's listed something as as prayer and fasting. Um and we certainly lack spiritual discipline in our modern Christian society, yeah, the broader evangelical world. Um, so God putting that on your heart. Absolutely. Yeah. Um, I'm sure it's a good practice. I just like I said, uh I'm just trying not to be shaky and wondering what's wrong with me and get jittery, because because I'll get jittery and then I it's the same thing when I'm sick. I'll eat so much food and I'm sick because I'll get jittery and then it becomes like, what's wrong with me? Oh wait, I just need to eat a little food. But but boy, if I get that what's wrong with me started, right? It can it's it can spiral. So no, I don't have much to say about that, but I you know, I definitely have lots to say about um just some of the ways to to help your body out go off, share it. Like, yeah, um, and these some of these are like no duh. But um we live in a society where we don't move our bodies, we eat poorly, we stare at screens and don't go to bed. Um, the family unit, the very basis of society is broke being broken and just decimated everywhere. And then you wonder why there's mental health issues, right? Yeah, yeah. So there's there's mental health issues because of there's neurotransmitters and biological problems, but there's also mental health issues just because of all the environmental stuff we do.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And don't do.

SPEAKER_01

And don't do. Yeah. And and uh don't just, you know, again, we talked a lot about spiritual. Don't discount the body too. We're when you try to separate the two, you're gonna you're gonna create problems. Like we are both. We were created with a body and a soul, right? They you can't break the two apart. Um, and so yes, just the obvious things like uh eat real food, uh, go to bed, and guess oh yeah, I don't sleep well. Well, guess what? Probably because of the not real food you're eating or the screens you're staring at. Yeah. Um and yes, obviously, we all have seasons where there are stresses that are just they're just stressful, and we might not sleep as well. But we everybody should be, but especially mental people with mental health problems, should be really monitoring that and thinking about um you know how can I stay in this? How there's the things that are unavoidable, but there are things that are avoidable. And let's get rid of, let's make sure all the things that are avoidable I'm dealing with. Yeah. You know, uh, my psychologist would talk about the rocks in your bucket. Don't don't put more rocks in your bucket. Um I try, I really try to have this mindset even with work now, especially, but Give yourself a cushion. I need I need a cushion. More of a cushion than maybe other people need. But I need that cushion of don't fill up the entire day. Give yourself a cushion. Because then whenever you have a problem, which are unavoidable, you're not you still have that reserve to help with that. So like I said, there's lots of these things that just get neglected.

SPEAKER_00

Um I feel like people know this. Like the here's the thing, it's it's kind of like saying the it's not even the quiet part out loud anymore. Everyone realizes there's too much screen time. Everyone realizes the food that we eat is crap. Yeah and and you know, big food is poisoning people slowly with microplastics. Like it's it's like a c it's more of a common thing, but we've been so like sedated by it, it's hard to break out of habits. Yeah, they're literally made to be addicted, you know? It's those kinds of things.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, yeah, it just you just mentioned screens. I mean, they're they're meant to be just watch a million documentaries on all that and how they're meant to be addicted. Food. They they put sugar in everything in America. Why does my applesauce need added sugar in it? Yeah why does like my you know just random things? Why does my oatmeal need to have added how'd they even get the sugar in there? Like everything has extra sugar in it, added sugar. It's like just just can we not have real food in this country? Right, and then the people uh who are poorer can the cheaper food is the worst, is the food that's worse for you, right? And so you're talking about people that are already having a hard enough time that now are adding health problems to the equation because of the food they eat. So those those there are those things. Um and number one, like if you're gonna change something in your life, exercise. Exercise number one. And I don't mean, I mean, I think it's good. I think actually, this is what's kind of silly is you know, people have this like 10,000 steps a day goal. Uh that used to just be called life, right? Like now, I I'm not I mean, hey man, dude, if you if you can do 10,000 steps when you were doing zero, that's awesome. Yeah, but you know, that's that's not even that's not even exercise. That's just living life.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, you do like 20 squats, okay. But I mean, I think people just had to pick stuff up and down normally.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's years ago. I've I've harped on the step counter thing, like some friends with some friends of mine, and I make fun of it. I'm most like, oh, 10,000. Like you said, it's good for someone who's like on the couch and needs 10,000 steps just to like get the ball rolling. Yes. But that's a it's it's like that's what just life used to to to force you to do is get up and move. Yeah. Kind of sad that that's kind of the reality of things now.

SPEAKER_01

The the reason why I would say exercise, number one, is because when you exercise, you will you might make better choices with what you eat. Because you don't want to feel, you know, oh, I felt good because I exercised. I just ate a Twinkie. I feel like crap again. Maybe I won't eat the Twinkie. I actually like to feeling this way. Right. You will probably sleep better if you exercise. It's good for the brain. You get a little sunshine, maybe. Go out and walk.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Like these are exercise, I think, will just naturally cause you to make other good decisions.

SPEAKER_00

Has that been a played a big role in your your mental health journey?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. A hundred percent. Um, I started off swimming. I hate swimming. I sink like, you know, lead weight, like a bucket of rocks. Oh my goodness. So bad. But I started swimming. Now I've I've kind of gotten away from that. I'm gonna go back to it because I actually miss it again. I could use more cardio, but but I've always had some, I'm doing some type of exercise. But that was the first one. Mainly, honestly, that was just because it felt good. Geez on the joints, and I was having so much inflammatory problems. Now I do a lot of Plotties, yeah. Um, bar, that kind of stuff. Like a lot of it. Me and the 70, 80-year-old Louise at the watch. You're doing what you gotta do, dude. It's fantastic. Um, yeah, there are times when I'm the only guy in the class, and by times I mean 50% of the time. Although so far there's been guys in all my classes this week. So but you know, that stuff's so important. Um and with that, when you start when you start getting into Pilates and yoga, you can kind of get into this whole the whole meditation world, which um I am a big fan of, but you have to you have to understand what I'm talking about there because false religion takes a lot of truth and some works, and they mix it together into something that is um people like. And so you're not gonna find a successful false religion that doesn't have a lot like truth, actually actual truth in it that they've hijacked, they've taken from from creative order and God's word, and they've hijacked it into their own thing. Yeah. Um, and so when I talk about meditation or I talk about yoga Pilates, this is just the way we were made. Um, so you have a vagus nerve which goes down the center of your body and it regulates from the brain all the way down to like the groin area, I believe. And so when that gets out of whack, you might have a stomach problem. And you go to applies or yoga, and they're gonna focus on breathing as you're doing everything. Well, breathing's a good thing. Yeah. Um, now they you might have, if you went to certain yoga places, they probably connected that to something spiritual in the Eastern religion worlds. And um that's where you gotta be careful, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Uh, you're not really gonna find that the why. Probably one class at the I do take meditation at the why sometimes. And I I I honestly don't really pay attention to what she's saying, but yeah, if you were you have to be a little careful that stuff. And if you were uncomfortable with it, don't do it. Don't do that. But you know, she says, like, do you do you want does anybody okay? Everybody okay with sage today? I'm like, yeah, bring the sage on. I'll take extra sage. But because that's again, that's just I want to get my my um sense of smell involved. Like you're just you're trying to get the whole body involved, get it kind of centered, which is not just a eastern religion world. I mean, word, it's centered. Um, you're meaning like bring it all back to the vagus nerve. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Get that regulated, get that that breathing going. You should be breathing through your diaphragm, not your chest. You breathe through your chest, you're telling your body, let's go, let's go. We need to do something, you know. You breathe through your diaphragm, you're saying telling your body, relax, everything's okay. Like this is just simple stuff, and again, it's it's it's hijacked by those Eastern religions into all their mantras and yeah, such things. But these are just basic things about how the body's made, right? And um, so don't yeah, exercise, and for me, particularly Pilates, yoga kind of stuff has been very helpful. Right. That's my 15-minute warning right there. Okay, cool. Yeah, good. Um, and uh so that's that is, and then I would say I don't don't let the don't let the Buddhists hijack meditation either. That's that's a that's that is not as obviously a biblical term. I meditate upon your hall day and night.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Um let's talk about that because I know I I've listened to pastors say meditation. Well, anything that is anything that doesn't lead you back to the word of God is demonic. Like as far as the spiritual, um, kind of like you're saying the Easter religion stuff, even even don't even go as far as to to talk about the religiosity of it, but the mindfulness stuff that I that you see a lot out there, people uh that are spiritual, but you're not making that connection to the word of God. Like as a Christian, it'd be easy to get sucked up into that, you know, and not make the connection because you know you're in the class at the why and no one else is making the connection, and you're kind of just there in the secular setting. So so let me read you, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Well, let me say one thing first that even in the why setting, I probably again, I hardly pay attention to what's being said, but there's some basic truths that I will always hear. I always hear even in in uh a Pilates class, like you are created, and so everything we're doing here is part of your the design, you know, help improving the design of your body that your body is. And so so anytime you're in those classes, you'll probably hear you'll talk, you'll hear about a creator. You have a divine, there's there's a divine being that made you the way you are, and you're trying to be that. That's the truth. Um there will always talk about the spirit, you know, there's the fact that you are body and soul, that you are eternal. That's the truth. Um probably some other things too. Um but then they get get off the rails a little bit.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um but there are gonna be some basic truths because again, this is not these things are good for your body because you were created a certain way, and you figured that out. But but kind of going back to what you were saying, this whole mindfulness thing, I'll read you a little parable from Luke chapter 11. Luke chapter 11, verse 24. Jesus says, When the unclean spirit has gone out of a person, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, and finding none, it says, I will return to my house from which I came. When it comes, it finds the house swept and put in order. Then it goes and brings seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they end enter and dwell there, and the last state of that person is worse than the first. And the the um the meditation mindfulness that you're that you're referring to is is more about just the emptying. Clear the mind.

SPEAKER_00

Yes.

SPEAKER_01

The mind's just like totally clear. Uh, you know, it's like this house that's just swept and put in order.

SPEAKER_00

Well, you're not filling it with Christ.

SPEAKER_01

You might get seven demons coming back, like it might be a lot worse. Yeah, um, yeah, so that's interesting. Just clearing the mind is that's a scary thing because he knows what's gonna come in. Yeah, you hear that a lot. But mindfulness, see, I would define it totally different. I would define it as one being in the present. And what I mean by that is um again, you can do that in a way the the Buddhists are gonna talk about, but for me, being in the present is is uh, you know, let tomorrow worry it's about itself. Don't don't just take stock what's going on right now in your life in this moment, and you do that while understanding that God has a purpose for you in this moment. Daily bread. Yeah, yeah. It's it's not just yeah, just get bad thoughts out or empty yourself. It is it is um you're focus even focusing in this moment. That's a that's a good thing. Don't worry about tomorrow, don't worry about the future. Right now, in this moment, God has something for you to do. Yeah, so focus on that. What can you do now? Yeah, or or mindfulness is often you know, you're you're in you'll have in meditation these chants and your ohms, and if you just focus on the ohm, you can get rid of everything else. No, don't focus on ohm. Man, just like take a day, take that time and go, wow, God is infinite. What does that mean? Just as I'm gonna sit here and breathe and and contemplate that.

SPEAKER_00

That's worship, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's a worship. Exactly, exactly. So you re redeem, redeem it. It's not it, it's a good thing when used in the right way. Because again, the Bible tells us meditate, and the Bible certainly says use your brains, think about these things. So it's it's it's just something that's been hijacked by the Eastern religions that um have taken it in the wrong direction, and be be careful of that, right? Um I think I think the plot like a meditation class at the Y is probably about as far as you want to go down that that road. Um I I wouldn't I wouldn't be comfortable. And if you're not comfortable with that, like again, it's kind of like that, the food sacrificed idols in First Corinthians. If something is a conscious issue or you're uncomfortable with, yeah, listen, listen to that. Right. But um, but don't don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. Don't mindfulness is a good thing, it's mindfulness. It's you get focused on something that um from God's word, from his nature, that gives you purpose and gives makes you want to worship. Yeah, that's that's that's how I view that stuff, and it's it does calm, it calms the brain down, calms the body down.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, you know what I like to think about what I like to think about when I'm in pain or suffering, and I know you have just a few minutes left, but I think about Jesus on the cross. I think about that level of suffering. Yeah, you know, I just it just it it it just reminds me of what he did, and that he did it for me, and he did it for you, he did it for everybody listening to this, and that personal when once you once you make that personal, that personal connection, um it hits so different. It really does. And it makes the problems that you have in your life so small that that Almighty God would become man and die for me. That's just like I could sit in that for for a long time, and then all of a sudden my problems don't seem so big after all. And it it prompts me to worship, you know, it prompts me to be thankful for the gospel message, for his sacrifice, for his atonement for my sin, all my future sin. And and that's just something that like I can say that to somebody, but it's like an experience that you have to have, yeah. To to really feel that deep love that he feels for us. You know, it's it gives me goosebumps, man. You know, and I just like to do that while crossing my legs and moving on my diaphragm.

SPEAKER_01

Like, you know, yeah, like as long as it's it's it leads to worship, absolutely. You know, it leads to worship. Yeah, that's that's where you have to go. What's your purpose in this? What's your goal in this? That's the key for sure.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Well, I want to finish with a verse from Philippians. Um, and you touched on this earlier when you're talking about the eternal. Um, it's Philippians 3, uh chapter, chapter 3, verse 21. It says, But our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a savior from there. There, the Lord Jesus Christ, who by the power that enables him to bring everybody under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body. So right now we've got these lowly bodies, and they're full of problems. You know, we've got mental health problems, we've got physical problems. But someday we're gonna be redeemed, yeah, and that's something that we can look forward to. I told you, man. I'm just living in a sin-cursed world waiting for the redemption of all things.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's a great line. But you're not gonna, you know, yeah, you're not going to it. It's oh, you're so right. You we have so many problems uh of all different kinds, our own making, outside, uh, things outside of our control in this world. And you're not gonna get any answers other than God's word. Like it's always gonna come back to something in God's word that's gonna give you that, be that like light for your feet. Yeah. That is going to get you in in the right direction with that, with guidance from above, with purpose, with understanding why you were created.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Yeah, I think it's amazing what God has done in your in your life, and it's such a um such a an important message for people out there that you know six, seven out of ten people probably are either on medication or struggle with mental health. Yeah. And there is a solution, and it's Christ. And then there are other things like you're you've talked about that are practical that you can do in your daily life to change and better your physical self, your environment, and also your soul. Like that has to be part of it. Yeah. And you've made that part of it, yeah, you know, and God has blessed that effort.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Praise the Lord for that.

SPEAKER_01

That's got a lot more long ways to go. But don't we y'all? I'm trying to head in in a direction, and that's that's the key. Yeah. And I would say that if uh I leave it up to your discretion. If there's somebody you think or you know hears this and wants to talk more, I'm happy to try to give some people some insight and some resources. Yeah, you can give my number to anybody, that's cool. Like I said, use your put your email in the description. Uh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Put my email in the description. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, uh, I don't know if your audience is mostly male or female, whatever, but you know, I don't know. I don't look at the metrics.

SPEAKER_00

I just put podcasts out there and say, Holy Spirit, take this to whoever you want it to go.

SPEAKER_01

Well, I would just say, like, you know, if a female were to reach out, that's cool. But my wife, my wife's gonna be copied on that. So just you know as a good Christian husband, we should do just to know they would be talking to two people, not one person. Yes. But um, but yeah, I'm happy to try to peep steer people in the right direction. I I don't pretend to have any uh expertise other than I can just give my experience and see if it's helpful to other people.

SPEAKER_00

So yeah, I appreciate that. Well, let me pray us out. I'm saying uh we can you can go pick up your daughter. I will. Heavenly Father, God, we just thank you for this time that Josh and I could spend together, that you could be present in this room, and uh, we just ask your blessing upon this conversation. Um, that it would reach whomever uh you mean for it to reach, that hearts would be softened to the gospel message, God, that we need a savior, and ultimately that is our solution to all of our problems, God, and we have a hope in you as Christ followers, and we love that. We're so blessed to be able um to follow you into eternity. Um so thank you again for uh this time. Thank you for Josh and his testimony, God, and uh ask your blessing upon it. Amen.

SPEAKER_03

Amen.