After 15, You Only Look Like Your Choices : Dr. Mzamo Masito || Masterminds Podcast EP52

Download Achieve By Petra – https://app.theachieveproject.com/PSL0001000

Most people spend their lives blaming circumstances, systems, and other people for where they are. But at some point, the circumstances stop being the reason. Your choices take over.

In this episode of the Masterminds Podcast, Richie Mensah sits down with Dr. Mzamo Masito — global marketing leader, African thinker, and former senior executive at Canva, Google Africa, Vodacom, and Unilever — for one of the most expansive conversations the show has ever hosted. Dr. Mzamo breaks down the three tools that redirected his entire life: financial discipline, a personal life plan, and a personal brand key. He challenges the myth that passion is enough, unpacks why boys and men are falling behind across Africa, and makes a compelling case for why African unity must start at home before it can scale across the continent. This is a conversation about identity, courage, choices, and what it truly means to build a life of excellence as an African in the world today.

In this episode, you'll learn:

• Why after a certain age, your life reflects your choices — not your background
• The three tools a Unilever CEO gave Dr. Mzamo that changed his career trajectory
• Why being weak with money means being weak with decisions
• How to build a personal brand key that guides every major life decision
• Why "follow your passion" is the wrong advice for people who grew up poor
• The crisis of boys and men across Africa — and why it matters for everyone
• Why Pan-Africanism must start with fixing your own home first
• How African history holds the key to African self-belief and excellence

Chapters

00:00 – Intro 

01:29 – The Meaning Behind the Name: Life Is to Try 

09:02 – Your Choices Determine Your Life After 15 

13:25 – The Three Tools: Budget, Life Plan and Brand Key 

18:22 – Weak With Money, Weak With Decisions 

25:45 – Comfort Zone vs. Terror Zone 

33:17 – The Crisis of Boys and Men in Africa 

44:08 – The Gender Divide Is Divide and Conquer 

54:46 – African Identity and Mental Decolonisation 

01:04:08 – Fix Your Home First: Pan-Africanism Starts Local

Transcript

SPEAKER_07 0:00

When you are young, you look like your parents. After 14, 15, you only look like your choices and decisions. Not everything about your life you can fix, by the way. Most things in your life you can manage. If you are weak with money, you are also weak with decisions.

SPEAKER_01 0:18

We said we'll be some mosquito. A global market leader.

SPEAKER_07 0:32

Like when you work in corporate, one of the things you learn quickly is that you get measured on what you do, which is competency, and how you do it, which is great.

SPEAKER_02 0:41

To be competent, you need to believe that you are excellent.

SPEAKER_07 0:45

Men are less plain, focused, and women. And boys are more likely to think that school education is useless.

SPEAKER_02 0:56

Before we jump into the conversation, I wanted to take this opportunity to thank you for supporting and deciding to watch this episode. But now I have a favor. Subscribe to the channel. Subscribing to the channel helps me and the Nintendo Mastermind team to continue bringing you wonderful conversations and episodes that bring you closer to being the mastermind you deserve to be. So join the community. Did I say it to the right South African accent?

SPEAKER_07 1:36

Exactly right. Awesome. My name means my mom's, you know, when you get named by African mothers, it in my case it's a prayer and a wish. Okay. From my mother. And it also described the day. So the day was effortful for my mother. So I was a bridge baby. So I turned halfway. And so I nearly died, and she nearly died. So it had to be chased to hospital. So it was the day itself was effortful.

SPEAKER_03 2:06

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_07 2:07

And then she figured that she should name me Mzamo because what she wants me to do on this earth is to Mzamo direct translation means to try.

SPEAKER_03 2:17

To try.

SPEAKER_07 2:18

Or effort. Make an effort. So her whole idea was may you at least try. And then also in my language, we say um uboomi ngumzam, which means literal translation means life is to try. Okay. So I like that. So life is not to win or lose. It's to try. Life is to try. You you must have the courage to try things out. And not obsessed with winning or losing.

SPEAKER_02 2:49

Yeah, don't care about the results.

SPEAKER_07 2:50

You can care. So the word care is important in almost everything we do, but it can be your obsession. Okay. So the results are not should not be your obsession. What should be your obsession are the things that are under your control, which is only you know whether you gave it your all. Yeah. Only you know whether you gave it your effort, only you know if you tried harder. Only you know that. If you're gonna write an exam or do anything, only you know you studied harder. No one else knows if you were lazy or shortcuts, only you know. The only person you are gonna lie to, you can't lie to is yourself. And so the idea then for my mom is you make an effort, you try. If you don't win, shit happens. If you lose, shit happens. If you win, also remember, be humble enough to remember that you were not 99% in charge and in control of the win.

SPEAKER_02 3:55

You were only responsible for that.

SPEAKER_07 3:57

You were responsible for what you had in what was in your control. And then there's other things like luck, timing, God's invisible hand, your ancestors' invisible hands, yeah, other people's luck and prayers and all of that, which you have zero control over that. So to now when you win and you claim the entire victory as if you were like you sing a song, I made it on my own. That's a lie. No one is self-made. No one is self-made on this earth. You are part of your which is you and your talent and the things you have control over, which is effort and trying, yeah, and your talent. Then the rest, a lot of it is luck, timing, other people, God. It's just so many other variables that lead you. Even when you watch football, Messi has probably been to many finals, but it didn't win all of them.

SPEAKER_04 4:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 4:58

No one remembers them, but it didn't win. Same Michael Jordan, he's basketball, but he probably went to 13 or 12 finals, and he only has five or six rings.

SPEAKER_02 5:08

Yeah. He couldn't control everything.

SPEAKER_07 5:10

There's nothing much he can do. He can't win all 13. Yeah. Because not everything is under his control. So he also has to rely on luck that the other side's great team player gets injured. Yeah. Or uh someone misses a three-pointer or a point, someone does a foul, someone he has to rely on many things that are not in his control to win a ring.

SPEAKER_02 5:33

So I'm very like in football, they always say that you can never score a team if the defense doesn't make a mistake. Yeah. It doesn't matter how good you are at attacking, the defense needs to make a mistake.

SPEAKER_07 5:46

Yeah, and and most, it's like what you when you do when you say that, you remind me, I was reading a data, uh showing my team actually that life is more like it's a team sport. Yeah. Even business is more a team sport than um anything else. But team sports that are like rugby, football, where you have 12 plus players, the reliance to win is the team. Because it takes an individual player to win a game. So you can be man of the match. Yeah. But it takes a team to win a tournament. True. So you're not gonna win the tournament on your own. There is no way even Bappe would have taken France on his own single-handedly and win the World Cup. Or even PSG, which shows even with PSG that heavy reliance on Bappe, not the team, is not good for the team. Yeah. Whereas when Bappe leaves, PSG wins the Champions League. So what does that say about team versus individual brilliance? True. Individual brilliance is necessary, but it only wins you games, but it doesn't win you the tournament. And the study they did once they showed that in sports like rugby, football, you need the entire team. There are sports, netball, basketball, where you have five or play, you need one or two. Or even tennis, table tennis, that's the thing. You just need one great player. And when they're not there, you can see, you can feel it. But in other team sports, which I think life is is mostly sometimes a combination of a tennis or basketball, and sometimes it's a football, rugby. Yeah. But you are mostly a team player. And then you can't.

SPEAKER_02 7:34

Because even if it's not business, there's family, there's friends, there's community, there's your entire nation.

SPEAKER_07 7:40

You always a team, you need to be a team player. But you also need to be good at your position. So if your job is defense or goalkeeper or striker or wing, you must play your position well. Then you must also play for the team. It's the same when you're in your family, like I tell people, in my family, I exist to look at my family and figure out what are the family historical cases that I need to contribute to break.

SPEAKER_02 8:10

I love that.

SPEAKER_07 8:11

And then what are the family's new blessings I need to contribute to start? So if my family, in my family, for example, the biggest kind of cases will be addiction, absent father. Those tends to be the thing, an absent father or addiction or obesity. So these are, and then which triggers diabetes, and then it triggers everything else, type 2 diabetes.

SPEAKER_02 8:37

So if it looks like that part you've already got covered.

SPEAKER_07 8:40

Because I then study my family health history. I go to the doctor and I do a genetic test to see if I have insulin resistance. Okay. And then it comes out that I'm insulin resistant. Okay. Now I know it's genetic because most of our illnesses are genetic. They passed on from family. Yeah. Family. So once you know that, then you must put a plan, choices and decisions. Because I always even say to my kids, when you are young, you look like your parents. After 14-15, you only look like your choices and decisions. So you can't blame anyone after 14-15. Because your choices and decisions determine the consequences and outcomes that happen in your life. Yeah. So you can't, you can't anymore. Like so it's the same thing. If I know my family health history is mostly morbid obesity, obesity, and which triggers type 2 diabetes, then everything else follows. Heart failure, hypertension, you name it. I have a responsibility to make better choices and decisions.

SPEAKER_03 9:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 9:45

I might not, not everything about your life you can fix, by the way. Most things in your life you can manage. But you can try. You can manage. That's the trying. So I can manage, for example, if someone has diabetes, you can manage diabetes, even if there's no cure. If someone is HIV positive, you can manage HIV until it's not traceable. Yeah. But that's management. That's not fixing and improving. Because if you stop that management program, you regress. Diabetes comes back, or your C D4 count lowers, all of those things. So that's the thing is in a lot of our lives, some things you are in management, some things you can fix and improve. But the things that are chronically you, like in my case, if diabetes is in my family, that means it requires strong management. So I must try and make sure I manage it. Yeah. And manage it well. And then the same, if my father abandoned me like he did with me, my biological father abandoned me. So now my part in this life is to figure out how do I not repeat this case? What choices and decisions do I need to make that allows me to break this case? Yeah. So that the next generation has new problems. And by the way, when you break cases for your family, you're not protecting them from new problems. There'll be new cases. There'll be new cases, a new problem. But at least this one, it should end with me. And the same, when I find out that my father, my father's father, which is my grandfather, abandoned him.

SPEAKER_03 11:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 11:26

So he instead of ending, he continued to his children and he raised none. And then now, now that I know that, my job is to make better choices and decisions. Okay. And that's it for me, even with my kids. Just make better choices and decisions. And remember, when you are young, you look like your parents. After a certain age, you look like your choices and decisions.

SPEAKER_02 11:52

That's a powerful statement. One of the most difficult things to do in financial planning is saving and investing towards a big goal. Now, let me tell you my secret that I used to overcome this challenge. I started to do small top-ups consistently on Achieve by Petra to save and invest towards my bigger financial goal. For instance, when I decided to come and study masterminds in South Africa, I decided to top up daily, weekly, anything that I could until I raised enough to afford my tickets, my hotel, everything to bring this podcast to you from South Africa. So if you're like me and you want to overcome this challenge of saving and investing towards a big goal, use Achieve by Petra. The link is in the description. I was going to ask you certain questions which you have even answered before I could ask. Because I was reading your profile and checking how from Nike, Viacom, um, wait, before Nike. Then CMO for Google, and then uh African Head for Canva, you know, and one thing struck me as I was reading all this, you know, aside seeing the big titles, I was also seeing a man who must be so disciplined to be able to stay in these positions and keep growing in life. So I wanted to understand how you were able to make the right choices to keep going up.

SPEAKER_07 13:25

Ah, I'm not sure the the word right I would use. Uh, but I can tell you that when I was um what helped me when I was 23 or 22, I was working at Unileva. And I got an opportunity to either get a promotion at those days, like you were work level one, and then you get a promotion to work level two, which is brand manager or management level, or I had to I could go to India.

SPEAKER_03 13:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 13:59

But India was not a promotion, it was a lateral. Okay, lateral move, yeah. But I would have still been junior and but in a lateral move, but in a project that was a global project for low-income consumers. Okay. And my job would be to go in India and represent Africa and bring insights from West Africa, East Africa, Southern Africa on how low-income consumers live in Nigeria, Ghana, Kenya, you name it, because I had the data for that. And then go and spend time with someone from China, from India, from Vietnam, Southeast Asian countries, Latin America, Brazil. And our job was to create a low-income playbook. Interesting. Consumer playbook. So I thought the project was interesting. And I really I'm curious and I'm very nerdy. And I like things about insights and behavioral science and people, data analytics. So I was really loving it, but at the same time, I was obsessed with needing to get promoted. Okay. Because my friends were getting promoted. And I didn't want to be left behind. And also, I was broke. So I was financially. So I needed more money. So I thought I the promotion would get me a higher salary, more esteem and status. Okay. All of that. Yeah. This thing, I just go to India, but it's the same work level, the project. So I was confused. So I go to the CEO of then Unilever Doug Bailey, and I asked him what advice could he give me and what should I do? I have these two decisions, and I wrote down the pros and cons of the two of the two. And then he said to me, Um, I'm gonna help you with things that he wishes he had done when he was my age.

SPEAKER_03 15:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 15:59

So that and then he said, I'm not gonna tell you what to do because the choice is yours. You have free will and agency. So I'm not gonna tell you go to India or take the promotion, but I'm gonna make ask you to do three exercises which will help you make an informed decision. So I said, okay, fine, what are they? The first one was money. He asked me, Do you have a budget? Do how is your money situation? Then I said, no, I've never had a budget. I'm actually very broke. I have debt, credit card, this. I I am because of my poverty upbringing, I am living far beyond my means because I'm trying to keep up with anything, and I'm I'm actually basically living a champagne life in a Coca-Cola salar. That's what I'm doing, basically. So then you said, okay, I'm gonna teach you about money. Because money projects and reflects what's going on inside you. So if you're insecure, if you lack discipline, if you don't do delayed gratification, it shows up on the things you buy that you don't need. Yeah, it shows up on buying a car that you don't need. When you could have just bought a low-cost car and it will take you from A to B. And now you go buy a fancy car because deep down you are insecure. You have low self-esteem. So you think this car will boost your esteem and status. But it's all an inferiority complex that comes from having been brought up in scarcity. So the psychology of poverty is dangerous in a sense, it makes you feel small. So when you're in places where others have materially succeeded on you, you always feel small. So you overcompensate with material things, but they don't change the what is going on inside you. If there's a lot of tornado and typhoon inside you about insecurity, no amount of fancy car or fancy watches or fancy clothes will cover that up. Yeah, you need to go inward to do the work, to make peace with your upbringing and also love your upbringing and not have shame because you grew up in an informal settlement or a shack. So he taught me money first, how to have discipline with money. Because he also then said if you are weak with money, you are also weak with decisions. True. Then you're also gonna make bad career decisions because you are not gonna make career decisions that chase growth. You're gonna make career decisions that are about short-term gains. But if you notice, most people when you get a salary increase, you adapt and adjust your lifestyle to that new size. Yeah, lifestyle inflation. So you are always at negative. It's rare that you are at plus. So then he said to me, manifest. Then we did a budget, and I saw how broke I was, how red I was, and then he gave me, he helped me figure out how I can improve and turn this red to green. Okay. And how I pay the debt, how I so that I did with him. The second thing he said, Do you have a life plan? Do you have a life goal and plan for your life? Nice. And I said, No, I don't. And then he says, now in business, we write five-year plans, three year plans, which we convert to annual plans, which we take an annual plan and we make it a quarterly plan, or even and we track it monthly. Why are we not doing that with our lives? Then he said to me, Why are you not doing that with your life? You hear, you can write a five-year plan, ten-year vision, five-year, one year, convert it into quarters, make it monthly. So I want you to do the same for your life. I want to know in ten years' time where you're going. What's your North Star? What you're gonna be, and then you're gonna break it career, uh, yourself, give to others, give to self, give to country, give to God. So you're just gonna break it in those themes, and then in each you're gonna write a plan. So we wrote a plan. Took me two days to write this plan. And uh first time I had to write and think and have a vision of where I'm going. Yeah. And this is the biggest thing I've learned, by the way. Men, particular gender-wise, men are less plan focused than women. Women tend to be a lot more future oriented and plan. Women will have a plan even about a marriage at age five that's gonna be happening at 30.

SPEAKER_02 20:34

They have their wedding plan, they have their things and everything.

SPEAKER_07 20:38

Actually, that helps you because when you when you set an idea or a goal, you also activate God in a way. Because now God says, I have not given you a spirit of fear, I've given you a spirit of power and sound mind. Yeah. So now you are exercising the sound mind that God has given you. And it excites God because you now like you are now thinking 10 years, 20 years, but the second thing you're activating is faith. Because say faith is the substance of the things we hope for, but evidence not sin. So you haven't seen what you will become in 10 or 10. But now you are also activating the second thing, which is faith. And then the only thing now God is waiting for is action. Because even in the scripture it says, what is faith without action? Yeah, it says it's dead.

SPEAKER_02 21:31

So plan, faith, action, action.

SPEAKER_07 21:34

Because you need action now, because what you know, my elders in my village used to say to me, God does not listen to the words that come out of your mouth because God put them there. It is the blanket of action that you wrap those words with that God truly feels and understands. In the village, when you sit with the elders, they say to you, your ancestors, when you are brought. Broke or unemployed, and you are under a tree, and you say I'm broke, unemployed. They are there sitting under a tree with you, agreeing that you are broke and unemployed. But they are not gonna move until you move. The day you move and you type the CV and you do it activates the universe to conspire to move with you. Because now you are showing faith in action. And by the way, in all this stuff that I'm doing, it doesn't mean fear and doubt is gone. Fear and doubt is is presence, is present in faith. Yeah. Is present in courage. Just because you have courage doesn't mean you don't have fear. Just because you have faith, it doesn't mean you don't have doubt. Even Jesus, when he was in a cross, he still said, Father, why have you forsaken him? I mean, that guy walked on what? I mean, how can he have doubt when he you could walk on what? And he had one-on-one conversations with God. Yeah. But he still doubted. So you just because you have faith doesn't mean you're not gonna have doubt. So he taught me these tools. And then he said to me, Now that you've done this tools, the third thing he taught me was brain key. Then he said to you have a personal brain key.

SPEAKER_06 23:14

Brand key. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 23:16

Because he said, here at Unineva, we have brain key for Omo, for Flora, for Rama, for GNO. You name we we in a page, we can tell you what this brand is. Yeah, what it stands for, what its strengths are, what are reasons to believe, claims you can make, what its purpose is, what who's competition, who's not competition. Yeah. He says, in a page, we can do that. So why can't you do that with your life? Because you are also a walking brand. You are a walking brand. Everywhere you go, you are advertising yourself. And then he taught me in that brand key that you need to know who you are. You need to know your roots. You need to know your family history, your ugly, the ugly parts and the good parts. You need to embrace them and figure out your curses and your blessings in your family. And figure out how you contribute positively or negatively towards that. The second part, you need to know your competition. And in this case, you are the competition, no one else's. When if I ran marathons, so you quickly know when you run ultra marathons that you run your own race. You're not competing with anyone. Even if we started together, your destiny is different from mine. Yeah. You might get there faster than me. I might be get there slower than you, but that doesn't make me lesser than you. It just means your pace is faster. But it just doesn't mean I'm not a runner. We'll still get there. We'll still get there. I might just get there one hour later than you. Yeah. But what matters is I'll get there. So that was the thing. And then he taught me what are your values? You must know your values and live by them and make decisions based on values. And once you make decisions based on values, and you make decisions based on sound budget and money, and you make decisions on a life plan, you have a far better chance of making better choices. They might not be right. But it's better. They might be better choices. So you also drop the word right or wrong. Because it's all objective. It's all objective. It's subjective, actually. I mean subjective, yeah. So how do you know? So only time tells anyway whether you made a best decision or not. Yeah. So rather use the tools you have and the data you have. So that's what he taught me. So since then, I didn't take the promotion, I went to India.

SPEAKER_02 25:38

And it's worked out amazingly.

SPEAKER_07 25:40

That was the best decision because when I went to India, what it helped me with, I realized that I didn't have still enough self-esteem.

SPEAKER_03 25:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 25:48

And working with clever like people from India, from China, from Vietnam, Brazil. Now I was in a group of highly smart people, motivated, driven. And when I started sharing, contributing, and they started saying, hey, we like that, I thought, then I was like, oh, actually, I'm not average, actually, I'm good. But I needed to know whether you're Champions League material, you must play with Champions League players. You can't play with players. So I was now playing at Champions League level. And I was starting to see that, oh, I can play here. And I can actually stay here and be a good player here. And that helps. So by the time I come back after that, my esteem, my confidence is now high, and my self-belief and self-awareness is high. And now I can take on even bigger. And from then on, my career accelerated.

SPEAKER_02 26:48

So that means to overcome your low self-esteem, you just have to challenge yourself with things that felt too big for you to be able to do.

SPEAKER_07 26:56

Yes, and it it has to be outside your comfort zone before your terror. So you need to be careful that all human beings remember, we either faint, freeze, flee, or fight.

SPEAKER_03 27:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 27:10

So you you want to be in a space where you you're outside your comfort zone, but before your terror, before you freeze. Okay. Faint. Yeah. You don't want to faint and freeze. So you still want to be at a space where you can fight. Yeah. Your adrenaline is there, is kicking, but you are out of your comfort zone. Like when I went to India, the country itself, I was out of my comfort zone. Then I was dealing with different nations, different ways of thinking, different IQs, very high IQs, and that puts you in a different discomfort. And now you have to work with that discomfort. And then the more you work harder on it, the more you start seeing parts of you you didn't even know existed. Yeah. And this team is bringing them out. So you are right. Like you have to be out of your comfort zone. But I think it also be before your terror.

SPEAKER_02 28:07

That means like um working out or being in the gym. Yeah. You need to push your body past your usual limits, but not to a level that will also tear you down too much.

SPEAKER_07 28:19

Because you're right, like when you're at the gym, even when I run marathons, your training, you can only train up to certain mileage. Yeah. And you then have to do core strength training, flexibility. But if you overdo it, your body will punish you with injury. Yeah. So that you sit down. And also, even in training, you must have periods of rest and recover. Yeah. Because some of the muscles are not built while you're training, they're built in rest and recovery. And while you're sleeping. And you must sleep well, eat well, eat well. All those things makes you a better player. Yeah. So it's the same here. Like you shouldn't forget that when people always say men tend to say this, we grind. While they're sleeping, we grind. For me, that's biologically not a smart thing to say. Biologically.

SPEAKER_02 29:10

Yeah, because while you're sleeping, you need to recuperate.

SPEAKER_07 29:13

Exactly. Your brain is recovering. Your muscles are recovering. Sleep is actually the greatest medicine, even for men. And by the way, in most cases, men sleep less than women.

SPEAKER_02 29:25

How come?

SPEAKER_07 29:26

Because on average, we're thinking men, men, men should grind. True. A man should make money. Yeah. A man should. We see it as a form of laziness if you sleep seven to nine hours. Whereas we now know biologically that shorter sleep, shorter life.

SPEAKER_03 29:44

True.

SPEAKER_07 29:45

And we also know that if you sleep less, you your executive function, your brain is compromised. So you will make stupid decisions anyway. And then the third thing we know is you have more chronic chronic illnesses. Okay. With with less sleep because your immune system is weakening over time. Yeah. So you're gonna get sick more often. And then the last piece, you end up making less money anyway. Yeah. Because you are not as productive. You're not as sharp, you're not as strong. Yeah. So you will make less money. So this idea that men don't shouldn't sleep is actually biologically flawed. Actually, your greatest medicine is quality sleep, quantity of sleep done repeatedly, and then you switch off the lights. Okay. And you just sleep. And you will see that even athletes prioritize sleep. I was watching LeBron James. LeBron James sleeps, takes lots of naps because that's what the body needs. He won't be playing basketball till age 40 if he was not prioritizing rest and recover and sleep. I don't know why it's black men all of a sudden we think it's cool to not sleep. It's the grind. I only sleep two hours a day. It's like a flex. It's actually not a flex, it's stupidity. Yeah. Because you are gonna die young. That's all that's gonna happen, and you're gonna be dumb longer. Because the brain's not gonna handle your absence of oxygen and absence of sleep. Yeah. And then it's gonna punish you, and how it punishes you, it will make you less effective. And your cognitive function, your executive function, it will be compromised.

SPEAKER_02 31:25

So it's like the more we try to be very um grind-driven and more effective by not sleeping, we actually make ourselves less effective and less useful.

SPEAKER_07 31:36

In the short run, it might feel great, but in the long run, it's the worst decision that we can make for if we want sustainable long-term success. Yeah. Because if you want sustainable long-term success, you want a success that you will also enjoy. Like in running, we will say uh enjoy the ride, enjoy the run and love the ending. Okay. So as a runner, you don't want to be in pain for kilometer one and you still have 90 or 100K or 42Ks to run. Yeah, that's not a fun run to start and you're already in pain. It's the same. If you've worked hard and made money of success, you must also enjoy it. Yeah. Now you've worked hard, you've got the money, and now you're in hospital.

SPEAKER_02 32:23

Spending all your bills on all your money on hospital bills and doctors and medicine.

SPEAKER_07 32:29

Or other people inherit your success. Yeah. Because you die young.

SPEAKER_02 32:32

And they just say thank you.

SPEAKER_07 32:34

Yeah, anyway, and also people forget that on average, women live longer than men, three to seven years. Okay. Partly because women are wiser than men. Yeah. They sleep better, they sleep more, and they also have um group therapy, which is friends and family. We don't have group therapy. Not at all. We don't sleep well. We want to grind and over provide, and then we die young. So it's a sad part that as men, there's a lot we need to unlearn.

SPEAKER_02 33:10

So I'm glad you brought up men because aside all the amazing things that you've done with all these brands, you also set up African men's care, right? I want to understand the concept behind that.

SPEAKER_07 33:22

African men's care exists to democratize opportunity and increase transcendence for mostly boys and men. Okay. And the idea behind it really is I started observing in South Africa, oh, there's a in the global north and then in South Africa, there's a trend where boys were falling are falling behind. Okay. And Western South Africa, for example, in most homes in South Africa, which is not always prevalent in East and West Africa, seven out of ten black boys in South Africa are raised by single mothers. The father is absent. So that means that then means the home is dysfunctional. Yeah. Then the other one is black families have the lowest marriage rate below 20%. Wow. White families over 50% marriage rate. You see the highest divorce rate. Which also correlates with income. Black family in South Africa have the lowest income, highest inequality. Income inequality. So already that tells me then that poverty plus the home, which is the institution that is very important, which is the family, is broken. And then I go track boys and men, how they are performing in education. Okay. And in almost primary school and high school in South Africa now, when you look, it's actually similar to trends in the West as well. That boys are doing badly in numeracy, literacy, science and maths and literacy. Boys can't read for meaning. Boys are scoring worse on numerates. Now that already tells you that boys are falling behind. And in South Africa, the highest dropout rate is when you're in high school, grade 10, the last two years before the end of high school, boys drop out faster than girls. So what do you mean it's contributing to all this? Because they're starting to think I'm not doing well. Okay. I'm not performing. What's the point? What's the point? And boys are more likely than men to think that school education is useless. Okay. Because boys and men go on TikTok or YouTube and listen to all these YouTubers who talk about you don't need school to be wealthy. Look at Mark Zuckerberg, look at the Google founders, look at Jeffy, which is all lies. Okay. Because that's misinformation. Because there's no data that supports that. The data that shows us globally is people with a higher education, particularly at university, and more than people with only lower than high school qualification. And they have less unemployment. Anyone who's got a degree or post qualification tends to have less unemployment, tends to earn more than someone who has no. So the idea that you don't need school, people are taking the outliers, the 0.001%, often Elon Musk or someone, and then they say, no, what they also forget, all of those people, Mark Zuckerberg, the Google Founders, or Warren Buffett, all of them. They're employing people with the PhDs. But also, they had amazing foundation. Okay. So they had great foundation. Warren Buffett starts stocks and wealth planning at as a teenager or adolescent. So if you grew up in South Africa and you poor or you grew up in East Africa, West Africa, you didn't do that. So why are you comparing yourself? You are not comparing oranges with oranges. The Kugel founders started coding at a young age. They had a computer, an advanced computer at a young age. If you are from here, Southwest, East Africa, when did you start having a computer? Yeah. A software with great memory, resolution, battery life, all of that when? So why are you comparing apples with oranges?

SPEAKER_02 37:28

I think the message that they give is is contorted. It shouldn't be that education isn't important. It should be that formal education isn't the only form of education.

SPEAKER_07 37:41

And that's what they should be saying to everyone is you still, if especially if you grew up poor, then you need a lot of people. I'm an advocate for poor people that you need education the most. Yeah. Because it's a ticket out of poverty. It is not a ticket to wealth, but it is definitely a ticket out of poverty. But then from there, then it's on you whether you're going to become wealthy or rich. But to get out of poverty, there's a certain level of education that gets you out of poverty quicker than not being educated. So that part we know for sure. It's the same thing we know if you are more numerate and more literate, you tend to be more employable. You tend to earn more than someone who can't count. Yeah. And simple things like if you're more numerate.

SPEAKER_02 38:29

Even if you're running your own company, you need to know numbers. You know numbers.

SPEAKER_07 38:33

I mean, simple things people don't realize. Health. Health dosage and health instructions. When we say take 250 mil twice a day, if you lower numerics, you're going to overdose. Yeah. Or you're going to underdose and you're going to read the instructions wrongly. Yeah. So people forget that when we actually say there's a crisis of literacy and numeric, it goes beyond just school. It actually affects your life. Yeah. How you see life, how you solve problems. Because who are people who are more numerate have enough cognitive function when you present them with a problem, they will use deductive and inductive logic to solve a problem. Now, if you're not numerate, you you give up quickly. And then you start thinking, no, it's because they bewitched me. And now you're blaming witchcraft and you're blaming your neighbor. Yeah. And you're blaming your uncle or aunt who you think is a witch, but only because you just can't count and read properly.

SPEAKER_02 39:34

I mean, you get to an airport, you need to read the science. That's where you're going.

SPEAKER_07 39:37

That's the part for me. I'm like, we we need to get there. So that's where African mencid really is. It was there are issues. I could see them. Poverty, family breakdown, education systems poor. I go to prison. 80, 70 to 80% of prison inmates in South Africa are males. Even globally, they are males, not females. If you go to juvenile prisons, 90% are males. And in South Africa, it's predominantly colored and black, not white or Indian. So now, immediately for me, then I thought we have a problem. If we're not addressing this problem, while we are rightly making sure there's women empowerment initiatives, take a girl child to work. And in education in South Africa, for example, and I saw the data on US and Europe, in education, we've achieved gender equality. Women have actually doing way better than men in education. Primary, high school, and university, up to master's level, still doing now better than men in the last 10 years. So that then tells me that in the future.

SPEAKER_02 40:49

We're going to have a problem with the men now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 40:52

And now all these great initiatives we put in place for women, we made it a zero-sum game instead of an end-end. So what I the what African men can really exist for is how do we make sure that no one is left behind? And how do we make sure that girl and woman empowerment initiatives continue? But how do we make sure boys and men also catch up? Because at the end of the day, when a woman is empowered, rarely she marries down or dates down. Yeah. Age and income. It tends to be horizontal or up. Up. Yeah. So if we are men are falling behind and the women are making amazing strides and progress, we're going to have a dating gap.

SPEAKER_02 41:41

I think it's already been.

SPEAKER_07 41:42

We're going to have an even worse marriage gap. The marriage rate will tank. We won't make kids. Birth rates are going to decline. Yeah. And everything else, I don't think we realize that one thing leads to many things. Things are interconnected. And if we're not solving this issue, and then the other last challenge for men is when men feel emasculated and disempowered, they tend to be even more violent.

SPEAKER_03 42:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 42:09

And when the men are violent, for example, homicide steps in South Africa. If you count homicide in South Africa, 80% or 88% of people who die from homicide are men. 12 to 13% are women. But that majority of men who die from homicide or violent deaths are killed by other men. Not by women. They are killed by other men. The 90% of the women who die from violent deaths, 99% are killed by other men, which then means that the toxic parts of masculinity or manhood don't only just kill women, they kill men too.

SPEAKER_02 42:46

I mean, the way let's say women say sometimes that women should be afraid of men, that's not true. Men should be more afraid of men. Men. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 42:54

Because you are more likely statistically on homicide to be killed by your acquaintance. Yeah. By your friend or family member, not a strange. The bulk of the people who die from homicide globally, actually, they are not killed by a strange. Yeah. They are killed by an acquaintance. And mostly either we were both drunk or high, and then we got to fight. And that violent aggression, not because I wanted to kill you, but my anger killed you.

SPEAKER_02 43:24

True.

SPEAKER_07 43:24

So that's the other part.

SPEAKER_02 43:25

In the excessive test room.

SPEAKER_07 43:27

In the excessive test room. You see, the so I I think so African men care really it's how do we sh advocate for boys and men while being an ally to women and girls.

SPEAKER_02 43:40

You know, it's like trying to make it an either or it's like trying to balance a scale. Yes. Where at first the men were too high, women were too low. So you started to tilt the scale in the favor of women, and then now it's going the other direction. So if we are not careful to balance things out in a few years' time, we now have to go on a whole tangent. Of advocating for men. Again.

SPEAKER_07 44:01

You see the yeah. So it's I think as a society we should be wise enough that we made mistakes where we left women behind. We oppressed women and we didn't give women rights they deserved, rightly so. Like Thomas Ankara says, women hold the other half of the sky. So we have to respect women. Access to education, to health, all of these. There should be equality around those things, including economics. We didn't do well there. So we're now correcting it. But in correcting it, we're oppressing men. We are now creating new problems. We should be wise enough as a society to say, let us not repeat what we had done in the past. Now, how do we make sure that no one is left behind?

SPEAKER_02 44:49

I think this happens a lot in life where we do one thing wrong for so long. So we wrong one party for so long that in trying to fix it, we start to wrong the other party instead of actually achieving the equality that we want. Because if you look at the world right now, certain things are very basic, like saying, oh, um, men are scum. Yeah. Or men are what give me some of the terms that they say. Men are trash. Men are trash. That's it. You get me? So we've gone from empowering women to bringing down men. Yes. Because it felt like if the woman is low, you need to reduce the man to be able to bring the woman up. Whereas the campaigns should have just been towards elevating women to reach the standard that we had put men on unfairly previously. So that when they are all on the same standard, then we can move forward. But by bringing down men, um, I had a past guest who is always talking about boys' lives matter, and he said something funny that we educate women against teenage pregnancy, but we don't educate the men who are going to get them pregnant.

SPEAKER_07 46:02

Exactly. So we we make it solely a woman's problem. Yeah. Whereas it takes two to tango and have a baby. So now we don't then focus on boys and teach them reproductive health, teach them about sexually transmitted diseases, teach them about use of condom, teach them about the importance of abstaining, and then also make it cool to abstain. And not make it like if a boy says I'm a virgin, everyone laughs. Yeah. But if a lady says I'm a virgin, then everyone's virtue. But if a man says I'm a virgin, that's not virtue.

SPEAKER_02 46:38

You see, the if a woman says she's a virgin, it's seen as by choice. Yes. If a man says he's a virgin, it doesn't have game. Yeah. He can't play the game. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 46:49

And Osham, we all feel sorry for him. And we now think he needs to be helped. And let's make sure he gets laid quickly.

SPEAKER_02 46:56

I mean, I've heard of fathers who take their sons to a brothel to get him laid. I've never heard of a mother taking their daughter or a father who takes their daughter to the brothel to get.

SPEAKER_07 47:09

You see the double standards that we are applying. Yeah. But we are slowly killing the soul of boys and men. And then we wonder then why society will be sick. Because you can't have one half sick well and another half not well. Then you don't create a whole society. You just create an imbalanced sick society. And unfortunately for men, when men feel this disempowerment, they tend to be more violent, more aggressive, and they bleed on people who did not cut them. And it tends to be women and children. True. And other men. And worse, the environment. Yeah. When we destroy the environment, it's sometimes out of anger. Yeah. So men most of the time, actually. Men, the environment is not safe when they are not feeling empowered. Children and women are not safe. Other men are also not safe.

SPEAKER_02 48:09

I mean, I definitely do feel that some of the decisions we've made and correcting the wrongs is starting to lead to more wrongs that, like you mentioned, I think a lot of people haven't seen the compound effects of some of the decisions being made. Like I think it reached a point talking down to men became cool.

unknown 48:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 48:30

And it became acceptable. It's like I guess we're in a culture where, you know, when you when you do therapy, you learn there's two things I learned when I used to go to a therapist with something called dialectical behavioral therapy and cognitive behavioral therapy. Yeah. In dialectical behavioral therapy, what I learned the most is having the ability to hold multiple truths at once and be comfortable that I can be right and you can also be right. But we now live in a society that I should be right, you must be wrong. Yeah. And that's why there's so many debates. Yes. Whereas it is highly likely that we can be both right. Yeah. Or all of us here, we can actually be both right. It's just the context and situation now will determine which of these right statements, which one do we use that fits best. Yeah. This context in this case.

SPEAKER_02 49:28

It's like there's this, um, there's this practice in corporate team building where you take a paper and then you write maybe five on this side and write four on the other side, and you take two teams on the other side and you raise the paper and ask them to each say what's on the paper. Yeah. And they have contrasting opinions. Then you turn it around and show them that sometimes in life it's just your point of view.

SPEAKER_07 49:51

It's because you can both be right. Yes. But here now we live in a society where if I say boys and men are falling behind, what the other person is hearing is I don't care about women. Yeah. Which I didn't say that.

SPEAKER_02 50:08

You have to be on one side.

SPEAKER_07 50:10

You have to be on one side. You can't, I as a father of three daughters, whom I love my daughters a lot, and raised by many, many. My mom has five sisters. Okay. And raised with lots of sisters. It's highly improbable for me not to care about the development and growth of women. But I am saying these are two balls, glass balls, I want to juggle. Yeah. And we shouldn't drop any. Yeah. I I shouldn't be like, no, no, no, the wind is now blowing on the side of women investment, advancement, empowerment. So I must be in that zeitgeist and wind and never be seen to be on the men side. 100%. Whereas I'm now saying, no, I think this is imbalance. It creates an imbalance anyway. So why can't I have both? Yeah. Why can't I juggle both class balls? Why can't I care about women and girls and care about boys and men?

SPEAKER_02 51:10

Stephen Covey talks about it perfectly when he says every negotiation should end in a win-win. Yes. But we are currently in a world where it feels like a win-lose. Like if this works for Umzamo, then it means Richie will lose. If Richie wins, Mzamo will.

SPEAKER_07 51:26

I mean, it's a I think it's also the thing that makes Africans not progress enough. We are in a sort of like crab mentality and pulling each other down. Down. Yeah. Because we have a zero-sum game. We're not seeing that we can actually all eat and all have the cake.

SPEAKER_02 51:45

It goes back to the scarcity mindset versus the you know abundance mindset.

SPEAKER_07 51:52

Yeah, we have to we don't have enough growth mindset at the moment. We're very scarcity-oriented, and it's me, me, me, scarcity, and therefore zero-sum game. If you eat, then I won't eat. Yeah. But we can both eat.

SPEAKER_02 52:06

Because if you go to the men and women situation and you're trying to educate, it's not like if you educate the men and the women, uh-huh, that there's not going to be enough education for the woman. It doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_07 52:18

It's a it's it's an infinite, it's a gift of the givers, this one. Exactly. It's a gift that keeps giving. It's not like it and also when women succeed, it doesn't mean they do it at the expense of men.

SPEAKER_02 52:31

Of men, no. Women succeed for themselves.

SPEAKER_07 52:33

Women succeed for themselves, men will succeed for themselves. So it's a thing, it's a change, a dialectical maturity along which we need to now change as a society where we stop thinking that counseling people is the right thing to do. It's the same thing. If me and you or I make a mistake and I have said something stupid in in the past, I don't want to live in a society that doesn't have enough grace and mercy. To forgive me. That doesn't practice restorative justice. That doesn't allow me to grow. Because I could have said that thing and it could have genuinely been stupid or racist or homophobic or whatever, racist, whatever the term, like, or xenophobic, I could have said something stupid. But I'm human. And as a human, I am in continuous learning and development and growing. So if you are now gonna not give me grace and mercy and not allow restorative justice, not exercise punitive justice to happen, then we all stunted.

SPEAKER_02 53:41

Then there's no growth for anyone.

SPEAKER_07 53:42

There's no growth for anyone.

SPEAKER_02 53:44

Because the decisions people make, the things people say, the choices that they make are all based on the information they have.

SPEAKER_07 53:50

And their ignorance. Remember, my ignorance is infinite. So, and the higher the ignorance I have in that area, yeah, the higher your prejudice.

SPEAKER_02 53:59

You know, before I came to I've I've been to South Africa, this is my fourth time in SA. My second time in SA is when I came to understand, like I came to understand how people live in SA and all. And I realized that my opinions the first time, how I've always thought about South Africa was ignorant. I needed to be here for a longer time to meet locals for people to show me how things were for me to fully understand.

SPEAKER_07 54:24

Yes, like let me give you an example. Like the very first time I'm in Nigeria and Ghana, I'm there for two, three weeks. So I'm in Nigeria and I'm attending meetings. I attend my first board meeting, and everyone was black in the board meeting. Now I come from South Africa. At that age, when I was 25, 26, I've never seen that. South Africa predominantly the boards were white. Yeah. Now I come to Nigeria and the CEO is black, the CFO is black, and these people are confident. They are outspoken, they are well spoken, they are well educated. And that was a game changer for mental decolonization, even for me. Yeah. Because I started seeing, oh, these people look like me, they have the same skin tone as me.

SPEAKER_03 55:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 55:16

And you can be a CEO. You can start a company. You can do this. So, and they speak with confidence.

SPEAKER_04 55:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 55:25

And they're not scared of white people. And I remember in that meeting there was one white guy, and they they just was told, no, that's not how it works. You need to respect. And it was done family with confidence and facts. Yeah. And when I left there, that meeting and the three weeks being in Nigeria was the best time of my life because what it had done for me, it made me realize that, oh, that's a different type of confidence. Yeah. Whereas as a black South African, I could have easily mistaken a Nigerian as arrogant. Yeah. Because I don't know that confidence. Exactly. So I interpret it as excessive confidence. But because I lived now, I stayed there three weeks, I now really understand. Oh, this is confidence. The same as I look at African Americans and I'm like, this is confidence. So there are many ways to be African as well. Exactly. There's not one way. Africans are not a homogeneous group. There are many ways to be African. But going to Nigeria or Kenya or Ghana or Egypt, I start to learn that, oh, as a South African, I have been ignorant about East and West and North Africa. The reason I've also been ignorant, my schooling has no African history. So from primary and high school, I didn't learn about African history. Anything about African history. So no wonder I'm ignorant. And now if I didn't unlearn, I would have remained with that ignorance and prejudice.

SPEAKER_02 57:02

We need to be ready to unlearn.

SPEAKER_07 57:04

That's the thing. So I had to unlearn and then see my own African brothers and sisters in a way that had less prejudice. Yeah. That was less ignorant. And now I start seeing, oh, I can learn a lot here. Let me hang out with more Nigerians, with more Congolese, with more Kenyans, with more because Ghanaians. Because now I'm like, oh, I can learn a lot. And these people are worldly. Like I even love that I'm in a group in WhatsApp, which is all everyone from the diaspora.

SPEAKER_03 57:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 57:39

And I'm learning there's team people there from Ghana, from Congo, from uh Nigeria, from Kenya, from South Africa. So I'm constantly learning, debating their country. They are debating mine. Yeah. They are offering perspectives on a country as outsiders looking in. Also as Africans. So that also broadens your horizons. Yeah. And you just become a better human being. But what we all need to acknowledge though is all of us, our ignorance is infinite. There are areas, even in business, where you have a high level of ignorance.

SPEAKER_02 58:12

Because the more you learn, the more you realize you don't know. You know nothing. Or very little.

SPEAKER_07 58:16

So that's the things for me. And I must say, that's why I always say to people, even South Africans, if we change the education system and at a young age we introduce more African history. Yeah. And the South African knows more about Zimbabwe, Malawi, Uganda, and Nigeria and Congo. Very important you've you've started something. Yeah. Because then you're conscientizing at a young age that we are all Africans and no one's gonna Africa. And no one's gonna leave their country for fun and leave Zimbabwe they love and come and reside in South Africa just because they want to. There must be something not okay there that's making them to be here. Yeah. But if if their home was okay, no one just leaves home for no reason. So all of those things, then you would have known what's happening in the Zimbabwe economy, what's happening in Uganda, Malawi, what's happening with the Naira, or the shilling or the CD. You now you know, oh, okay, I I can understand now why this person talks this way, or behaves this way, or believes this way. But if we are not being allowed to reduce our ignorance through education and exposure, and the same thing as Africans, South Africans, we should promote more traveling within the continent. 100% because the more you see, the the more the less ignorance you have about people.

SPEAKER_02 59:46

We should really have a we should want to belong to Africa. Yes, not just a subset of Africa. But I I personally believe in one Africa. And the more I travel across Africa, the more I realize that we are one people just with differences, with differences. And we have to, I in fact, in life in general, we have to do two things. We have to seek to understand, and then seek to be understood. Once we're able to start doing that, people like when you take them the men-women thing, it shouldn't be men versus women, it should be men seeking to understand women, women seeking to understand men, and then men trying to be understood, and women trying to be understood.

SPEAKER_07 1:00:28

And you you know, I always say to people every time men, older men and women fight, the the thing that suffers, when two elephants fight, the grass suffers. Yeah, that means youth, suffer, kids suffer.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:45

And right now I feel there's such a big gender divide, and it's being propagated over and over again where it's either men or it's women, it's the boys or it's the girls, but it should be men and women.

SPEAKER_07 1:00:57

Yeah, but I also find it for me, it's another form of divide and conquer.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:01:04

Because if Africans remain not united, and even worse, if they are not united by feminine and masculine energy, it's another way of crippling African unity. Because if African feminine energy and masculine energy is in war with each other, the chances of us ever loving and trusting each other, which are the foundation for unity that we must trust, respect, love each other, are weak. So I also see it as sometimes I've always wished my some mind somewhere there, that's like a conspiracy mind, says to me, Why are we made to talk badly about each other so much? Because when I listen to other races, like I don't listen to white women talking so badly about white men. Yeah, I don't listen to Indian women talking so badly about Indian men. But when I listen to black versus black men and women, it's like a constant fight. We are in a tsunami of no trust, no love, no. It's so that on its own, it's something for me that worries me.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:20

I believe it started the divide and conquer started with nations and tribes where we're made to feel like one nation is against the other, or one nation feels like the other is getting something better. So they have this animosity, and then once that succeeded, now it's now moved to the gender fights.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:39

I mean, if if I travel when I travel the continent, the the most prominent thing in the continent are across the 50 countries that have been to the continent, without people being asked, they will tell me their tribe.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:56

Not asked, but they will volunteer what tribe they are. That then tells me that tribalism is deep in us, and we use it to divide each other, and we use it to create a superiority and inferiority complex. And I see it in West Africa, I see it in East Africa, and I see it in Southern Africa.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:17

And even how we elect politicians, it's the same with even nations. Like if an African goes to Europe or goes to America, and let's say I'm Ghanaian, and they say, Oh hi, are you Nigerian? No, I'm Ghanaian. Why the no? Immediately, like I don't want to be associated. Exactly. It couldn't be like that.

SPEAKER_07 1:03:36

We've been so like Steve Beacle used to say, the greatest weapon of the oppressed is the mind of the oppressed. 100%. So all you need to do is win the mind and make the mind feel inferior.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:51

Yeah. And that the truth is, that is what this is about. The reason I created this podcast was I realized that so many people were being defeated in the mind, and that is what's causing them to be defeated in life.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:03

So if we can have conversations that make people realize that they can win the battle up here. And once they do, they can win the battle in life.

SPEAKER_07 1:04:12

Exactly. I mean, once because how you think determines a lot, like your actions and your belief system. So you write the mindset. Yeah. Mindsets matter. And I feel like as Africans, we still need a lot more African consciousness, pan-African consciousness. Yeah. But also just consciousness about the importance of competence. Like when you work in corporate, one of the things you learn quickly is that you get measured on what you do, which is competency, and how you do it, which is correct. Okay. And then the third thing you get looked at is do you do these two things consistently?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:51

True. Competence and character consistently.

SPEAKER_07 1:04:55

So you have these three C's that are constantly you're being measured on. What we have not done well as Africans in most African countries, except now maybe Rwanda and Mauritius and Seychelles, maybe, is in the political sphere or civil servant sphere, competence, character, consistency, that baby has been thrown out of with the word. We're either lacking in some or lacking in all. We're either lacking in some, and in most cases, we tend to be lacking in all. Particularly around competency and character. Yeah. Because I would rather have an average competent leader who's has high morals and high character.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:44

At least a very competent leader who has lowered. Because then you'd be very competent in cheating. In cheating. And also you'll kill us. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:05:53

So those are the things like, and I found like wherever I've worked, you didn't get promoted. If there was an imbalance in your what and your how. Yeah. And then consistently.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:07

But I believe that we lack competence, character, and consistency because of how we've been trained. Yes. Because we've been made to feel inferior. You know, to be competent, you need to believe that you are excellent. Yes. To have character, you need to hold yourself to a higher standard. And to be consistent, you need to have built a brand value where you believe I need to do this all the time because this is who I am. So by making us feel inferior, it makes us not be competent because we think what it's like you mentioned, what's the point? I'm going to fail anyway. Why try? We have low character because we don't think well of ourselves. And then we're not consistent because we think uh it doesn't really matter anyway, so I don't need to keep doing this.

SPEAKER_07 1:06:54

Yes, and I mean someone once said to me, they will add another C or two in these three C's. Okay. And they will add consequences and courage.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:06

Nice.

SPEAKER_07 1:07:07

And they said the reason they're adding courage is because Maya Angelo once said, like, courage is the virtue that sustains all other virtues. So if you don't have courage, you won't be able to stand up for your virtues. True. Because they are only virtues when they are tested. Yeah. While we're talking, you have to be tested to know when someone gives you a brown envelope with millions of dollars, then you can say courage.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:35

Yeah. You can't say you are you are not corrupt unless you've been tested. Unless you've been tested. It's like they said, a weak man can never say his virtues.

SPEAKER_07 1:07:44

You can't. Yeah. Because you haven't you have you haven't been granted an opportunity that is sizable enough for it to test your virtues. Yeah. So you need to know that you have virtues, but the courage you need is to be able to say no. Be able to be willing to die for those virtues. And then the consequence is that most cultures stop doing wrong when we are consistent on consequence management.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:16

True.

SPEAKER_07 1:08:17

If you know that someone is gonna go to jail, there will be asset forfeit, there will be imprisonment, there will be shame, and it will be done consistently, religiously, there will be consequences. Most people tend to behave.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:35

But then again, too, the self-belief is also important because somebody may think they deserve the consequence. If I feel inferior, then I think there's nothing wrong with me being in jail. Like, what is my purpose in life? You know, you mentioned African history, and I think I'm very big on us teaching and learning African history. Because I think one thing that is happening is when an African is born, they are taught that you are not great because you are an African. We forget that Africa means greatness. Every country I go to, every person I talk to, when I ask about African history, it always starts from slavery and colonization. We forget about Mansa Musa, about Timbuktu, about the Sahara, we forget about the Nubians, we forget the great things that we've done as Africans. And I always say it is easier, you know, there's one thing that happens, especially I've noticed in Ghana because that's where I live. When we hear a white person like uh Jeff Bezos, uh Mark Zuckerberg, and Elon Musk is a billionaire, multi-billionaire, it makes sense to us because we assume they are supposed to be great. But when we hear a black person is a billionaire, a black person is a millionaire, we think he must have done something wrong. He stole it because as an African, you are not supposed to be wealthy. But if we all knew that Mansa Musa was wealthy, if we all knew, if we all understood that Africans have been great for a long time, if we were taught this every day from the time you start going to school, instead of telling you about us being us living on trees and not being civilized and that kind of stuff, and then suddenly we were colonized and then now we are just surviving. If you were taught about the fact that there was a great city of Zimbabwe, which had a great wall of stone that up till now they can't understand how that was built hundreds of years ago. Exactly. If if we talk about the wealth of Mali, if we talk about the the great Dahoma tribe, if we talk about these things, then you realize wait, I am a descendant of greatness. I have to hold myself to a higher standard.

SPEAKER_07 1:10:56

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:56

I need to be great too, so I can maintain the African greatness.

SPEAKER_07 1:11:00

Which is why, like when they were teaching me to do the brain key, the first thing in the brain key is roots.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:08

Yeah. Where do you come from? Where you come from.

SPEAKER_07 1:11:12

Because I remember once listening to TD Jakes, and he says, like, you can only draw. When times are tough in your present, you have to have a place with a storage vault where you go back and draw from to say we've been here before. We can go again. We can go again. Yeah. My ancestors have been great before. We can go again. My ancestors are smart. We invented writing or we know maths. Thank you. Medicine we've known long before we knew how to use soap and wash. We did amazing plumbing long before plumbing was an issue.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:52

You see, like have you heard about the IFA algorithms? Most people do not know that before there was computer science, Africans built an algorithm.

SPEAKER_07 1:12:02

You see, yeah, but we it you have to have a vault you go to. Yeah. But also, though, as people, you must be also creating new vaults. Yeah. Because you can't, if I'm Zulu, I can't only have one hero and it's Shagazul. Yeah. And I must have also new ones. Yeah. Because it then means as a society, we are evolving. Yeah. And we are creating new heroes. But we can't, if we are heavily reliant on historical heroes, it's a shame. We should be ashamed that in the current time we are not doing enough to create new heroes.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:44

So we also have to take it upon ourselves to be that new heroes.

SPEAKER_07 1:12:48

To be new heroes, because you want to still have Shagazul in our vault. So that when times are tough, we can go to that vault and remind ourselves. Yeah. But we must also have recent heroes. Like if in South Africa it's Mandela. Now 30 years has passed. But 30 years has passed, so we need a new one. Now we need another. Yeah. Who's another hero? Because you can't now have 50 years passing and we're still talking about Nguamengruma. You see, like we're still talking about uh Thomas Ankara or Steve Beagle. Or who are the new heroes then? Then it means we've failed somewhere that we haven't been able to create new stories and new heroes.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:34

I think this generation will change things. I think now that we are starting to tell our African stories a bit more, we're starting to believe more in one Africa. I'm glad to see so many African companies trying to operate African-wide and not just in their country. I believe things are going to turn over, and 20 years from now, they will be shouting out these heroes and they will also build heroes every 10 years. That will keep it.

SPEAKER_07 1:14:02

I really, I hope so. I genuinely hope so. You know, my thing now, I say to people, at the moment, as much as I'm a pan-Africanist, I don't believe the majority of Africans are Africans. I believe majority of Africans are Ghanaians, Nigerians, South Africans, Zimbabweans. We are only Africans when there's Africa Cup of Nations and maybe there's five African teams that are playing there, and we are only supporting because our team, if I'm Nigerian, the team got knocked out. Now I'm just supporting because it's just other. But at the core, we perhaps what we should be doing as Africans is acknowledging that the Pan-Africa idea is too big.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:14:50

Maybe charity should just be at home. We should all be saying, for now, yes, we want a one African. But you can't, it's like the European Union. You can't have a union, European Union, if you come in weak. We say the European Union says to you, these are the terms you need to meet. Currency, GDP, this and this to join us. Yeah. Because if you're coming in sick, you're gonna make us all sick. So I think also as Africans, we should also have a view that says since we are nationalistic, tribalistic, religious, and regional. Yeah. Lots of regions, how about first we stop this Pan-Africa big idea? Okay. And we just go lower level and you fix where you are. We fix Zimbabwe. We fix Zimbabwe, we fix South Africa, we fix so that when we join each other, we're strong forces coming together. Strong, not sick. Because how do your patients, all of us, cholera, this side, HIV, this side, this one, we are all joining in sick. Yeah. How are we ever gonna make a united Africa sick? So I I feel like at some point we also need to be able to make it hard for people to want to leave their country.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:19

True.

SPEAKER_07 1:16:19

Because their country is thriving, it's growing, and when they go, it's just more like I want to explore.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:26

You're adding on.

SPEAKER_07 1:16:27

Yeah, yeah. I want to explore.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:28

It shouldn't be you're trying to fix something you're or trying to replace something you're missing.

SPEAKER_07 1:16:33

Yeah, it's it's not be running away. Yeah, most of everywhere I've worked and I had people reported to me, particularly East and West African people reported to me directly or north. When I ask them what's your career plan, where do you want to go? Immediately help me get to the US. Yeah, help me get to Europe, help me get to Canada. Yeah, it's not because they are running away. It's running away. Yeah, it's not running towards, it's running.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:03

I don't like where I am. I don't, yeah. So get me anywhere.

SPEAKER_07 1:17:06

And I have no faith that this thing is gonna change. Yeah, I've given up hope it's gonna change. So um this career I'm in now is a stepping stone for me to get to Canada, to the UK or France or US. That's the what we need is a change in that. I will know we're succeeding.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:25

If if you see your home as a stepping stone, that means you're always stepping on your home.

SPEAKER_07 1:17:30

That's it. That's it. Like, but we we're not there yet. I feel like sometimes because I I am well fed and I'm not poor anymore, it's easier for me to think pan-African. Yeah, but it's a utopian idea at the moment. It's a big idea, it's too big. It's an elephant. And the best way we eat this elephant is piece by piece. And the piece by piece for me is fix where you are. Fix Nigeria, fix Ghana, fix South Africa, fix where you are so that when we lift our heads up and we're joining, constantly joining forces, we join them healthy and not sick. Currently, I'm struggling. How are we ever gonna create an African Union, a unity that is healthy when we all sick?

SPEAKER_02 1:18:21

True. But there's also one school of thought which could add to that where we could actually fix each other's problems based on experience. What I mean by that is maybe Ghana has a problem that South Africa has fixed. And South Africa has a problem that Ghana has fixed. Just by that communication. So the solution is not to run away, it's not to run away from Ghana to South Africa for your problems to be solved, or run from South Africa to Nigeria. It's about communicating and realizing, oh yeah, we had a similar problem 10 years ago. Yeah, we also had bad roads and this and this, but we did that, that, that, and within five years it was solved. Just that open line of oneness. So not a union where it feels like we have to be together, but sort of like, oh, I understand you, and we can talk and work towards a great future in the next 50 years or so.

SPEAKER_07 1:19:18

But we must remember, though, is we've done this. There's pockets of case studies where we've done this. South Africa is free, partly because Ghana, Nigeria, Kenya, Malawi, you name it, Mozambique contributed in making sure we're free. So we we know how to do this thing. And same, when South Africa is as com power plants and how we produce electricity, we we have taken that technology to the rest of other African countries and set up power stations there, plants using the knowledge that was lent here. Yeah. So it's not that we haven't done it. It's just that I just feel like you said mindset. I just feel like I don't think we have sufficient political leadership mindset that is focused on let me fix my home, which ends me the right to criticize my neighbor. But at the same time, let me help my neighbor. So in my village, for example, when you I remember when I was young, like in my village in the Eastern Cape, the one of the neighbors lost their crawl, entire crawl, like there was a sort of foot and mouth disease, but it only affected them. Okay. And the cows died, everything, the land died. There was a village meeting, and every villager took out a cow or goat and put it in that family's crawl. Oh, but they had to have the cows and goats to do that to restore their dignity. Yeah. And then when it was a time for um now the th ploughing the soil and harvesting, they were helping that family, other lands, and then every harvest, a portion of it also went to that family. So which then told me that Africans actually have always been communal. We understand what it means to be to have Ubuntu or be communal. It's just that slowly this mindset is we are losing. It's fading away. It's fading away. So that's my probably my worry. Yeah. That how do you fix your home first? That earns you the right to criticize your neighbor.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:43

Okay. I want you to do something for me. Like I was saying, this entire podcast is about mindsets. I want you to imagine looking at the camera over there and imagine that you could drop one mindset shift into the person watching to take them closer to success. What would it be?

SPEAKER_07 1:21:58

The first thing I would say because I grew up poor, I'll talk to people who have grown up poor. I think the mindset that says follow your passion is wrong for poor people. I don't think you should follow your passion. If you didn't grow up with three garage doors, um both your parents are above median income household. If you didn't have any of those things and both your parents have degrees, are educated, if you didn't have those things, you should follow your passion. I think you should follow pragmatism. You should follow the things that get you out of poverty first. And then when you're out of poverty and you have sufficient means and resources, then you can chase whatever tickles your fancy. But I think we we can't afford to have poor people saying it's not my passion. But you don't have money. So why are you busy following passions when you don't have money? I think that's the first mindset for me. And the second mindset for me is every country I've looked at has an entrepreneurial economic activity of round about the best ones, 15 to 20 percent. What that then means is around about 80 to 90 percent of people are gonna be employed. So the mindset that everyone must be an entrepreneur is flawed. Yeah, it doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense. It's hard to be an entrepreneur. It takes a certain kind of persona and DNA and person. So I think you must know your lane. Like me, I know my lane that I am a corporate animal. I am more corporate animal than I am an entrepreneur. And if I'm a if I am uh working with entrepreneurs, I'm more a consultant than uh the entrepreneur. Yeah. Because I'm don't think I'm cut out for it. So we must all have a mindset that know your lane. And know and be okay. And by the way, the majority of millionaires in Africa, majority, are employed. Yeah. They are not yes, people would say Dangote, but those are outliers, that's the one percent zero one, that's the one percent. The 90% normal distribution care that are dollar millionaires, are either CEOs of listed companies or CMOs, or those are the people, and they they didn't start a business. Yeah. They so we also must have a mindset that says it's not just entrepreneurism, it's also just being employed. And it's end-end. I'm not saying no to pushing for entrepreneurship, but I'm also saying don't forget the fact that 90% of the people are gonna be employed anyway, yeah, and that most solopreneurs are responsible for 70% of employment. So this idea that everyone must be an entrepreneur mindset, I don't know how feasible how do you grow businesses if nobody's working for anyone.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:06

Nobody's working for anyone.

SPEAKER_07 1:25:08

So I think we should have a mindset that promotes both and not make one more superior and less than the other. We should have a mindset that carries both truths.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:18

Comes back to like the man versus woman.

SPEAKER_07 1:25:20

Yes, you should both can coexist. Yeah, you can be a great employee just as much as you can be a great entrepreneur. Yeah. But if you're a great entrepreneur without great employees, you're also not gonna survive. Yeah. So I just feel like we must have a mindset that promotes both, that encourages both. And then the first part was just if you grew up poor, I think the mindset of follow your passion is misleading. It's for people who are well off. Yeah that mindset. For poor people, just follow money and pragmatism. And when you've got the money, then you follow your passion. Follow whatever you want.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:57

Dr. Mzamo, thank you so much. I should say I love the way you think. I think you have beautiful insights into a lot of things, and I've really enjoyed this conversation. In fact, I want to come back to essay so we have another conversation another day. Thank you very much. Thank you so much. And I hope you watching this have gotten one step closer to becoming the mastermind that I know you deserve to be. Thank you for watching this episode. Now, the mastermind dream is about building a community of people who have the right mindset and are ready to take their success into their own hands. So do me this wonderful favor. Subscribe and share with anybody out there who you believe you want to see have the right mindset to succeed so that together we can all become the masterminds we deserve to be.