Two Generations. One Standard of Excellence: Charles & Bongani Mwebeiha || Masterminds Podcast EP55

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What does it look like when excellence is passed from one generation to the next — not through pressure, but through example?

In this special episode of the Masterminds Podcast, Richie Mensah sits down with Charles and Bongani Mwebeiha — father and son, investor and creative, two generations of African ambition in one room. Charles is a global private equity leader whose purpose is to put African excellence on a world stage. Bongani is a young storyteller and entrepreneur determined to change the perception of what it means to be made in Africa. Together, they explore legacy, character, sacrifice, and what Africans must do differently to build things that last. This is one of the most honest and layered conversations the Masterminds Podcast has ever hosted.

In this episode, you'll learn:

• Why purpose is bigger than deals, titles, or money — and how it evolves over time
• What African excellence really demands and why Africans talk more than they build
• How Charles passed on a standard of excellence without wielding a stick
• Why character matters far more than grades — and how to raise children who understand that
• How social media is creating a generation that mistakes the highlight reel for reality
• Why manufacturing and boring businesses create more real wealth than fintech and content
• Why sacrifice is the prerequisite for success — and how comfort is quietly creating weak people
• What both generations agree is the one non-negotiable mindset for anyone trying to build

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

I think some people are intellectually curious from I like to think I was one of those. I've always been interested in knowledge. I've always been interested in learning as a young child. I read a lot.

SPEAKER_03 0:11

What do you feel you've learned from Charles that has set you on the start? On this special episode of Masterminds, we sit with Charles and Bongani Mwebeha, a father and son representing two generations of African ambition. From global investment and governance to youth culture, creativity and entrepreneurship. This conversation explores legacy, identity, and what it really means to build across time, across generations, and across Africa. What do you think your generation should be doing better?

SPEAKER_01 0:43

We need to be intentional about one of the things that are important for me is character.

SPEAKER_03 0:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 0:49

A man needs to have integrity. What you're responsible for are the choices that you make.

SPEAKER_03 0:54

100%. What do you think is the gap? What do you think is missing? What's that mindset that we need to develop as Africans so that more people can chase African excellence? Before we jump into the conversation, I wanted to take this opportunity to thank you for supporting and deciding to watch this episode. But now I have a favor subscribe to the channel. Subscribing to the channel helps me and the entire Mastermind team to continue bringing you wonderful conversations and episodes that bring you closer to being the mastermind you deserve to be. So join the community. So today is a very special episode because for everyone who's been watching, you know it's usually a one-on-one conversation. But for the first time, I get to talk to two guests at the same time. And what makes it even better is I'm talking to two generations of masterminds. So welcome, Charles and Bangani.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_03 2:03

How are you all doing?

SPEAKER_01 2:05

All good. We are we are good. We are, as I was saying to you before the the podcast started, it's an interesting experience for me, you know, being interviewed, particularly with Bangani. So all good, looking forward to the chat.

SPEAKER_03 2:17

Awesome, awesome.

SPEAKER_02 2:18

I'm a bit nervous. I have uh I've frequently spoken in front of tons of people, but not in a forum like this.

SPEAKER_03 2:24

Okay. Yeah. So this is new for all of us.

SPEAKER_02 2:27

That's true.

SPEAKER_03 2:28

So then we'll help each other to make it awesome. So, Charles, let me start with you. So, before the boardrooms, the capital markets, what do you think shaped your mind? Like, what made you curious and ambitious to set yourself on this path to success?

SPEAKER_01 2:44

Yeah, right. I think again, just thinking about it, success is I'll start with the success point, which is it's not always clear what success is. Um, do I consider myself to be successful? I'm not sure. I'm just I consider that I'm, you know, maybe in the first innings of what could be a really long and interesting journey, and therefore have I reached that destination? The answer for me, my own definition is no. Um, but the journey that I have been on has certainly been an interesting one. It's been a varied one, it's been a challenging one. And what are the things that set me on this path? I would say intellectual curiosity is something that I think comes inbuilt.

SPEAKER_03 3:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 3:27

I think some people are intellectually curious from birth. I I like to think I was one of those. I've always been interested in knowledge, I've always been interested in learning. Um as a young child, I read a lot, um, lots of different books, lots of different types of books. Um I read books that were fiction, I read lots of Reader's Digest. You know, if you if you have if I don't even know if they still circulate Reader's Digest, but I read lots of Reader's Digest and it just filled my mind with lots of different ideas. I mean, I was born in Uganda, grew up there in in a very difficult political time. Okay. But by the time I was 10, I knew about the Canadian prairies like I had actually lived there. You know, I knew the animals of the prairies, I had a sense of the temperatures in the prairies. When you grew up in a tropical sort of on the equator, having the idea of a winter is something that you know you just have to use your imagination. And that imagination was always um stimulated by reading. So reading for me has been very important. But yeah, I'm just naturally curious, I'm naturally prepared to try many different things. I've had lots of very different, varied experiences in life because I'm naturally you know interested in trying out different things.

SPEAKER_03 4:45

Interesting. Well, Bongani, let's come to you. So for you, so he he was born in Uganda, like you said, and had to find your way into this path. But you were born into a world of excellence and ambition and discipline. So, how did that also shape you to become the storyteller that you're becoming right now?

SPEAKER_02 5:05

Right, so I I feel um that the intellectual curiosity that you just spoke about um to an extent it's a relatory. I think the way that I've exercised it might be different. So my dad read a lot, I listened to a lot, so I consumed a lot of podcasts, um, every interview um on the subject matter that I was really interested in at the time. So when I was a kid, like a teenager, I listened to a lot of musicians and listened to them speak about you know their artwork and the stuff that they're putting out and the industry and the dynamics within the industry. Um and the older I've gotten and how my my interest has kind of shifted to business that that has not transcended, but that has kind of like it's become that. So I I listen to a lot of guys in business and hear what they have to say, I listen to news very frequently. Um in terms of excellence and in terms of being born into it, I feel like you're right, like a lot of the attitude that I currently have is through osmosis as a consequence of being around it. Um I think you know, this idea that sky's the limit is as a consequence of being around people who generally are extremely ambitious, and that's kind of fashioned how I see the world and how I my drive on that.

SPEAKER_03 6:19

I mean, this is great because I I must say, first of all, I love the dynamics. You know, it's I always say it's one thing to build something for yourself, but to be able to extend that to the next generation or to the person next to you shows someone who understands. I say there's no success without secession, but also on your part to be able to absorb it, because I know every father, every person who's done well for themselves, wants to be able to pass it on to the next generation, but is the next generation willing to welcome it? So the dynamics, the fact that two generations of greatness are sitting right here and willing to share your thoughts too, is just beautiful. But let me come back to you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 7:00

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 7:00

Um, so you've been in and out of different amazing things from corporate governance, capital raising, deal making, investing, and all. So I know for most people, when you are in the journey, it feels like you're just like building a portfolio or a CV. When did it transition from that into real purpose building for you?

SPEAKER_01 7:21

Purpose is a big subject, it's a big topic. And I, you know, some people are lucky, I think they have a very clear sense of purpose early on in life. For some of us, I think it evolves and you stumble on it as you go along. So I think for the benefit of your listeners, I you know, I'm involved in the finance industry, private equity. I run a private equity firm together with my business partner, and we do deals, as you say. And unfortunately, deals is just that. It's deals, it's transactions, it's companies that you buy or invest in, or people that you back with capital. It's not the purpose. Um I view my purpose in life as you know, somewhat varied, but but all interconnected. I view my purpose in life as the opportunity to take an African story, put it on a platform, and give it excellence. Um, many people ask me what drives me. It's certainly not doing deals or making investments. What drives me is the idea that as Africans we can build things of value, we can build things that have global relevance, things that uh businesses, in particular in my case, businesses that have a level of excellence that is comparable with anywhere else in the world. Um and I feel that that platform then gives you an opportunity to send your message across. It gives you a credibility to send a message across. And the message that I'm looking to send across is one of African excellence, it's one of personal integrity, it's one of you know being able to take gifts and capabilities that we've been blessed with and make the most out of it. Those that's the purpose. It's to create a platform and from that platform be able to speak a message that speaks of presenting African excellence, presenting a good stewardship with gifts and blessings that have been have been given to me, and also demonstrating to an African continent that is very short of excellence. We can do interesting things and we can do them on a global scale. So that's something that has evolved over time. It's not necessarily directly related to the work that I do on a day-to-day basis, but the work that I do on a day-to-day basis is about building that stage. It's about building that platform.

SPEAKER_03 9:45

That's amazing to hear. I keep fighting this fight and telling everybody all the time that Africans are born into greatness. We are great because we're African, but we don't seem to exude it enough by showing African excellence. And I want people to be able to have that mindset and understand that you have to be excellent as an African. So to hear that your purpose is African excellence, that's just perfect because purpose normally works best when it's bigger than yourself. When you hold yourself to a standard that is so large, you need to wake up every morning and say, I need to do better because my goal is bigger than me. So for you to choose African excellence means you will keep driving, and it explains why you've been able to carry it on onto Bangani.

SPEAKER_01 10:32

No, absolutely. I think maybe just to give you a tangible example. We work in a world, fund management, if you if you sort of give it a broad definition, where there are, you know, thousands of fund managers out there. There are hundreds of African fund managers out there. And when we started our business, my partner and I purpose to be one of the best managers in our investors' portfolio. Our investors are global investors, mostly from the US, also from Asia, but they have a global outlook and a global portfolio. And we always say the only way we remain relevant to our investors is not to be a good African manager, but is to be one of their best managers across the whole portfolio. So when they think of you, they don't just think of you as, oh, we have this good African manager, but the field is average in Africa, so who cares? If you can present a proposition that says to your investors, these are my top five managers globally. Yeah. That's a very different proposition. So that's how to think about how to be excellent versus how to be average in an average field.

SPEAKER_03 11:36

Yeah, very true. How about you? Because you've been born into a world of finance and you know, law, capital raising, and everything, but you decided to show your excellence in a different way through creativity and storytelling. How are you bold enough to do that? To to say to yourself and to your father that I will still be excellent, but I'm carving my own path.

SPEAKER_02 12:00

Sure. So I think we share similar sentiments. I think as a consequence of the fact that growing up, again, you know, this idea that being African doesn't inherently mean that we're less than, that we just as capable, we just have to be extremely intentional about displaying that, right? And so creatively for me, you know, there's this concept or this misconception around this idea made in Africa, right? When people think of clothing or when people think of art and when people think of artistic disciplines that come out of the continent, there's this idea that it's not of the highest quality. And so I think for me, it's like there's this inherent desire to help change that, right? There is, you know, I was I was listening to I was listening to a talk given by the business of fashion guys, and they were basically speaking to this idea that when you think of of like fashion that comes out of Africa, for example, like it's couture, like that, it's inherently homemade, like the weaving, everything is done uh handmade by people. And and globally, when when people think of high quality stuff, you know, they think of the attention to detail that comes as a result of doing stuff handmade and being extremely scrupulous about you know the process of making the garments, etc. But despite the fact that that is inherently what makes uh you know the clothing and the fashion ours, people still have this misconception of African quality, not necessarily being up to par with like made in Italy or made in like France or whatever. So for me, it's it's how do we what kind of drives me is again how do you change the perception of what it means to be made in Africa, and uh yeah, I think that's probably one of the biggest driving factors.

SPEAKER_03 13:44

Okay, yeah, and it's true because I think one thing I've noticed is that the biggest economies, the biggest countries, or whatever you want to call it, is normally based on the best storytelling.

SPEAKER_04 13:56

Correct.

SPEAKER_03 13:56

You know, the reason why if I hear this shoe was made in Italy, I feel like ooh, that's good quality, that's luxury, is because I've been told that story. It wasn't just about the product, it was about being told how the product was made, being shown the process that went into it. So I feel if made in Africa is going to be known, it's going to be synonymous with quality, we need to tell our stories better.

SPEAKER_02 14:24

Correct. And to your point, that's my fascination with branding, is like this idea that the quality of a product isn't as a consequence of necessarily the leather used for the bag, or is as a result of the the craftsmanship, it's as a result of how well have these people done in telling it stories. So I completely agree with that, Cynthia. Beautiful, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:43

Okay, so let's let's jump into legacy here, right? Um, you have an amazing son, first of all, thank you who's doing amazing.

SPEAKER_01 14:50

I agree. That's why I agreed to the podcast.

SPEAKER_03 14:53

Yeah, one of the most difficult things to do in financial planning is saving and investing towards a big goal. Now, let me tell you my secret that I used to overcome this challenge. I started to do small top-ups consistently on Achieve by Petra to save and invest towards my bigger financial goal. For instance, when I decided to come and shoot masterminds in South Africa, I decided to top up daily, weekly, anything that I could until I raised enough to afford my tickets, my hotel, everything to bring this podcast to you from South Africa. So if you're like me and you want to overcome this challenge of saving and investing towards a big goal, use Achieve by Petra. The link is in the description. So I I have to know what are the what are the the disciplines and uh what are the kind of mindsets that you are hoping to transfer into him or that you've already started transferring into him to create this next generation of greatness?

SPEAKER_01 15:55

I think you should ask him the question. He should tell us if there's anything that's been passed on.

SPEAKER_03 15:59

Yeah, Vangani, what do you feel you've learned from Charles that has set you on this path?

SPEAKER_02 16:05

Um so my dad is he is, I think first and foremost, a lot of, and I don't know if it's intentional or not, but we learnt as a result of watching. Okay, so his actions were backed by what he did, right? And so it wasn't you should strive to be excellent because there are a whole bunch of things that will come as a result of this, and that being it, like you know, this idea that the lesson was in what he had said as opposed to the lesson being in what he said and it being backed by what he did. So I feel like a lot of what we learned, not just me, like I tell people often it's not like my systems are much more like impressive than I am. So as a family, like watching our parents, you know, work hard and and strive for excellence in the small things like showing up to stuff on time, um, being good communicators, making sure that you prepared all those small things, not just listening to those lessons, but watching them, our parents both act them out, uh, was incredibly important. I think our parents have been very open-minded, which has been very helpful. Like they've allowed us to kind of pursue our interests, regardless of whether it was the traditional African go, you know, study and get your law degree or go study, become a doctor. Um, so that's been extremely helpful in in helping us, you know, find what genuinely we consider to be passionate because I feel like passion and and interest drives like obsessiveness, and and in that you're able to work in ways and to degrees and your threshold for for taking on things is extremely high as a consequence of the fact that what's driving you is you know what you're genuinely interested in. So our parents giving us kind of the room and the space to to find out what we're genuinely interested in, I think has been really helpful. And yeah, like like as you've as you will kind of find out through the part through the podcast, my dad is he's done a lot of really exceptional stuff. Um, he's surrounded himself with really exceptional people, and again, so through that like osmosis, we've observed people who are humble but who strive for excellence, and we've kind of you know taken that on.

SPEAKER_03 18:13

But was there any point that it felt like you were pressured? Because one thing I've seen happen to a lot of people whose like let's say um legacy babies, you know, one thing is it feels like there's a lot of pressure to achieve because your parents achieved. Did that happen to you?

SPEAKER_02 18:31

So within the family, no. Okay, um, no, like our parents are our child, they like they don't they they have expectations of us as people, um, you know, the character of the people we become as opposed to the the flashy, you know, kind of job titles. Um I think externally a little bit, but I think if if there's any pressure, it's been you know internal. Um again, you've spoken about legacy. Like I think I have a real intention to kind of build on the legacy that my that my parents have started. And so if there's any real pressure, it's really internal. It's internal as a person.

SPEAKER_03 19:09

And that's that's a good pressure. Yeah, you know, holding yourself to a high standard is better than caving to the outside world, making you feel less than. So that's a good motivation. Yeah, yeah. I like that. He's smart. Yeah, he is.

SPEAKER_01 19:23

As as he said, I think we we we we're very fortunate. We we've got three children, we've got Bongani and and two girls. His sister is studying finance in Cape Town, and the young one is in high school. And I think our children have more than yield and cave to artificial pressure. I think they've allowed their own expectations to determine what drives them. Okay. And we've been super impressed by what they've been, all three of them, what they've been able to accomplish, not because we are wielding a stick and trying to drive them towards any particular objectives, but because they have chosen for themselves where they want to find themselves and how they want to position themselves. And I think that's you know, that's amazing for a parent to be able to stand back and watch that is really good.

SPEAKER_03 20:11

What has surprised you the most on his journey?

SPEAKER_01 20:19

Look, I think it comes back to part of the previous question, which is what are the things that we've we've tried to pass on. Um, you know, we we what are the things that are important for me is character.

SPEAKER_04 20:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 20:35

There is absolutely no compromise uh on character. We've not, you know, we we like to say, and and to the shock, I think, of our friends, they went to, you know, very good high schools and you know, very demanding from an academic standpoint. And without being careless or or unconcerned, we just didn't pay that much attention to the grades. That was never what was important for me or Alan, my wife. We we are always obsessed with character. What are the teachers' comments about the character of the person is much, much more important than the percentage grade. Um, so we've we've endeavored to make the issue of character important. I'm always saying to Bungani, integrity. A man, you know, needs to have integrity. And I define integrity as the gap between what you say and what you do, both in public and in private. If you are consistent uh around what you do, around who you are, there is no gap between what people see and hear about you in public and what people who know you in private see and observe and hear, then you are closing that gap on integrity and getting, you know, to that point of integrity. We we are people of faith, you know, we love God and we we walk in his ways and we try and and live in in those ways, and that's something. That we've endeavored to pass on to our children, you know, to be to be successful without regard to where that success comes from, I think is foolishness. And so we've we've endeavored to, you know, some people call it luck. You know, people also you'll hear lots of business people say, Well, I got lucky and so on. We don't believe in luck, we believe in God's providence. And when God makes a way for you, you know, it is you ought to live in a way that acknowledges that we are all subject to what he chooses. And so if he chooses a certain path for you, you might as well live in a way that acknowledges. And that's a point that I was making before, which is when we get when we get that platform or that stage, that is the message that we that we want to tell the world that, you know, there's only so much I can accomplish as a human being without the circumstances lining up. And so that is God's providence for us, and that's that's that's a message. But I think to maybe the last point that I'll reflect on is ultimately you don't know how long you live or what kind of life you will live. What you're responsible for are the choices that you make. 100%. And to be to make good choices, you have to be accountable for those choices. And so we've always endeavored to make our children understand that the decisions that you make, you will account for. If you can give a good account for your choices day to day, in the end it will accrue to you in terms of success.

SPEAKER_05 23:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:26

Everyday decisions build up to overall a good outcome. You can't hope that you're making bad decisions, bad small decisions every day, and one day you'll get a lucky break. I don't believe that.

SPEAKER_03 23:37

Yeah, very true. Wow. I'm really enjoying this conversation. I have to be honest. It's like I see the wisdom pass from here to here, and it's just amazing. Okay, Bogani, let's do something, right? So every generation talks about the next generation that, oh, they could do this better, they're not doing enough of this. It happened to my generation was told, you know, the the boomers got it right, we the millennials are not getting it right. Millennials have complained about the Gen Z. But let me ask you what do you think your generation should be doing better?

SPEAKER_02 24:11

I think there's a lot of obsession in my generation with this idea of like work-life balance. Like we are very idealistic, um, and we are very lifestyle driven, and a lot of that has come as a consequence of social media, which to be quite honest, I think is insidious. Like this idea that you would consistently have access to the opportunity to compare your life to someone else, yeah. Um, and and a life which is not necessarily the whole story, you know what I mean? Like it's just if you look at someone out on a night out, it's just that person's life, it's like that's just a snapshot of the entire life, right? So people's motivations being driven by this thing that isn't necessarily true, I feel is like what we've gotten wrong. I think there is an underappreciation for like just putting your head down and really putting in the hard yards. I think there's an underappreciation for for the importance of being extremely intentional about what you want to do. I'm not suggesting you have to have your whole life figured out, I'm just suggesting that you need to be intentional about uh making something of yourself. I think people kind of assume that they will stumble across it as opposed to actually working towards it. And so I think those those are probably the two things in my generation.

SPEAKER_03 25:33

True. I talk about this all the time. I tell people that I love social media, yeah, but my biggest problem with social media is that it only celebrates the highlights.

SPEAKER_04 25:44

Correct.

SPEAKER_03 25:45

Because everybody's only posting the highlights. Like as they are watching this episode, everybody's going to see this episode and say, Oh wow, this is so great. Nobody's hearing the thunderstorm behind us that you guys came through to get here. Nobody saw the struggles of me getting to essay to come do this. Nobody sees that part. They see the highlights and they think, This is great. I want to do exactly that.

SPEAKER_01 26:06

Correct. I want to be like Richie.

SPEAKER_03 26:07

Yes. They don't see the years of struggle that it takes to get there. So when people start on the journey and they start to struggle, then they think maybe this isn't meant for me.

SPEAKER_04 26:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:19

Or no, they had it easier than I did. Why am I suffering? You know, they don't understand that like humanity is about overcoming challenges. So you can't get to the success without the challenge. Correct. You know, I think it's a disservice we're doing. I actually always say I want to make an appeal to people to show the suffering.

SPEAKER_04 26:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:42

You know, like in fact, as you guys are editing this right now, maybe don't take out a thunderstorm.

SPEAKER_04 26:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:48

Let them hear. I know we have the noises and we can make it look like it was perfect, but life isn't very good point.

SPEAKER_01 26:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:55

Life isn't meant to be perfect.

SPEAKER_01 26:57

Yeah, absolutely. Look, I don't know that the normal environments in which we find ourselves lend themselves to that kind of genuine and open sharing. So the workplace, you know, people want to show up in their best suit, you know, their best face put forward their best foot. And so that's not a great environment in the school setting. It's all about competing and so on, which is part of the value, I think, of having a safe space, whether it's a it's a faith community or a family context where you can remain in touch with the not so great. Because remaining in touch with the not so great, I think, is what propels you to learn, is what propels you to accept failure and defeat and pick yourself up and keep going. And the more the especially the young generation, but unfortunately it's true even of older people, the the less in touch with reality you are, I think the less grounded you are. True. And the less I think reality there is about your life and therefore satisfaction. So it is a problem that's true of, I think, in particular the young sort of generation Z, uh, but also true for older people like myself.

SPEAKER_03 28:05

Yeah. So you spoke about your purpose being African excellence. What do you think is the gap? What do you think is missing? What's that mindset that we need to develop as Africans so that more people can chase African excellence?

SPEAKER_01 28:20

Yeah, I mean, that's uh Bongani and I often talk about this and and and we do joke about it. Um firstly, I think Africans are we are in this unique position where if I think about other ethnic groups and and races, you know, we are in this unique position where we like to think of ourselves as Africans and describe ourselves as Africans. And you know, you'll probably find, you know, as I walk around in different places, you know, in Europe or the US or whatever, you know, black people we tend to acknowledge each other and so on, and so because we have this whole idea we're Africans and we are all the same, right? You know, I don't see Chinese people or European people sort of giving each other a n or whatever. There's good and bad in that. The good is we have this very strong common sense of bond and identity, which is great. The bad is we somehow average out to the worst of us.

SPEAKER_00 29:20

True. Right?

SPEAKER_01 29:21

So by definition, identifying as an African, even to a stranger in an airport, means, yeah, we see each other, we are African, or even if the person is a diaspora African, we still have that connection. But implicit in that is all our weaknesses, all our backwardness, all our issues, all our whatever. So that's a problem. So that's the first thing is generalization. I think we tend to, you know, as as a Ugandan sort of born person, I've gone, you know, I've spent almost half my life here in South Africa, and I feel a high degree of affinity to a Zimbabwean or a Ghanaian. In my case, because I do a lot of business in North Africa, also to an Egyptian or to a Tunisian or whatever. But unfortunately, with that comes a certain, a certain, well, if I'm an African and other Africans are average to poor quality, therefore I'm probably also poor quality. That's one problem for us as Africans that we need to overcome. Yeah. The second problem that we need to overcome is we like to talk more than we do.

SPEAKER_03 30:27

More talk, less accent.

SPEAKER_01 30:28

Africans are the most well-informed people on everything: American politics, Japanese politics, you know, English football, you name it. And so we spend a lot of our time talking and analyzing and you know, theorizing and whatnot, and much less time doing. Earlier on in my career, I remember a young engineer. I started my career as, as you mentioned, Richie, as a lawyer, as a corporate, you know, lawyer. And I remember a young guy coming to our country. I was in Uganda at the time, and he was just about our age. Well, I was maybe three, four years older than me. I was 22 at the time, and he was maybe 26, and he had been sent by a company to build a 300 megawatt hydropower dam.

SPEAKER_03 31:14

Nice.

SPEAKER_01 31:15

An American engineer at 27, 28. And I remember we used to, I we were their lawyers on the transaction, and I used to sit back and think most of the guys that I know are talking about stuff. This guy has come to build a dam at this age. So at the end of the day, we should be doing more and talking less. I'd say the last point, and this is a point that's usually made by, you know, someone who's a mentor in my life, a senior guy. He's built an amazing, you know, South African company, probably the biggest in South Africa in the FMG space. I won't name him on the podcast, but you know, Bongani has a close relation, he's like Bungani's grandfather. But he always says to me, the trouble with you is he's a white gentleman. And he says the trouble with you Africans is that you don't like to offend. You know, everything is consensus and everything is nice and gentle, and someone is not performing, but hey, you know what, we are nice Africans and we will let them be. And he says, without that conflict, it's very difficult to make good progress. You know, we everything is again averages to the consensus, averages to the average. And that's not good enough. Um, I think we need to learn how to have tough conversations. We need to learn how to have high expectations of people and hold them accountable when they don't deliver. Some of my thoughts.

SPEAKER_03 32:36

That's actually very true. And I haven't thought about it from that direction. You know, one thing that's very culturally different in South Africa versus Ghana. In South Africa, if someone says they'll be somewhere at 2 o'clock, they are there at 1.55. In Ghana, if someone says they'll be somewhere at 2 o'clock, that means 2, 2.33, maybe even 3.30.

SPEAKER_01 32:58

You know, not good enough.

SPEAKER_03 33:00

Not good enough. And I came to realize that it becomes a part of the culture. Yes, because you expect people to be late. I remember this thing happened to me when I was in school. I had a class at 11 o'clock, and at home, my mom does not joke with her time. If she gives you a time and you're 10 minutes late, she's gone. And this is the time there was no mobile phone. So if she's gone, you can't call her on the phone. So when I was going to that class, I have to be there at 11, and I would make sure I'm there at 10:50 every day, and the class would start like 10:30, 10:40. So I would wait for so long. So one day I said, What the hell? Let me go late. And I got there at 11:40. And guess what? That day the class started at 11. I was like, oh no, and now everybody was waiting for me. Right. And I became, I realized I have become the problem I was complaining about. So if I wasn't conscious of this, I would also now go into that habit of doing this all the time because it's accepted. So I think you're 100% right on the fact that in Africa, because we bond with each other so much on being African, we accept our flaws and it's like, oh, it's fine. That's how we are. That's how we are. We don't strive to be better. But generational excellence comes from each generation saying, I will be better. I may have been born into a community that does not think it's that does not prioritize time, but my generation will end that. I may have been born into a community that thinks my business only needs to thrive in my town, but I will take my father's business into the next town. Then maybe my son will take it into the next country, then his son will take it into the next continent and it keeps growing from there. So I think you're right. African excellence starts when we accept that yes, it's great to be African and side with us as Africans, but we can also hold ourselves to a higher standard.

SPEAKER_01 35:06

And it also, I think, it also depends on the things that we do. So as you rightly say, if if the only the full extent of your experiences is getting to work, you can get to work at whatever time you want and so on, you will never learn the value of time. But I think when you do certain things, when you when you travel as frequently as I do, you cannot get to the plane late. And so if you do that every third week, time management becomes ingrained in your mind. If you do, I've had, you know, I've done some interesting sports, extreme sports experiences. You know, if you're climbing a mountain and you you have a window to summit, you cannot be late. Yeah. You know, you could be in serious trouble. Your life could be in serious trouble. So it's things like that, which if you expose yourself to different experiences, they start to hone who you become and what is important for you.

SPEAKER_03 36:01

Sure. So I guess we have to choose experiences that shape us to do things right.

SPEAKER_01 36:07

Or people. Yeah. Or people who will hold you to account for being late. Yeah. And every time they hold you to account and becomes more and more uncomfortable, you say, Well, okay, well, maybe I might as well keep time.

SPEAKER_03 36:17

You know that theory where they say you are an average of the five people you hang out with the most. So I think if you reach the point and you realize that you're starting to dip in excellence, maybe change the five people you're hanging around with.

SPEAKER_01 36:29

Agreed.

SPEAKER_03 36:30

Let's talk about African leadership. Yeah, there's something, especially with your generation, where there seems to be a disconnect between African leadership and the regular African. What do you think contributes to that the most?

SPEAKER_02 36:46

So I live with a with a friend of mine who's my roommate, and we are on social media, and what's begun to happen has there've basically been a whole bunch of really influential people that have garnered a whole bunch of attention as a consequence of forums like this. They go into platforms, uh like podcasts, and they do a whole bunch of speeches and speaks, and they basically speak a bunch of speak about a whole bunch of you know different really interesting things about leadership, about business, about making money, etc. And the deeper you dig into their stories, the it becomes more apparent that these guys are phonies, right? And and so there's this uh what's begun to happen is that the authenticity of the people who have been given platforms people don't necessarily respect them as a consequence of the fact that they don't feel like there is much credibility to them as people, right? I mean, they might be incredible orators, but they they have nothing to my dad's point to speak for uh like physically what they've done. It's just a whole bunch of talk. And so the the gap that you're speaking about is because I don't uh people at least I let me not speak for my entire generation, but the people that I hang around with, there's this idea that leadership, at least publicly displayed, it has turned into an occupation. Like people all of a sudden are business leaders, like that that's their occupation, like they're the business gurus, and and the extent of their success has been on the public platform and the speeches like that, like that's what they speak to, that's their business, you know what I mean, as opposed to you know, actually you know selling chickens or actually building a business, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 38:28

So it's like the one who's selling you a course on how to make money, but the only way they are making money is from the course.

SPEAKER_02 38:35

Exactly, exactly. So so the gap in leadership I feel comes from the the lack of ambition to become leaders as a consequence of the fact that our ideas of leaders are people who are trying to sell courses. So I think that's what the gap comes as a result of.

SPEAKER_03 38:54

So do you think, I mean, I'm not one to like throw blame, sure, but let me throw blame. Do you think the blame is on us who own the platforms for choosing the wrong people to give a mouthpiece to, or do you think it's on us, the public, who are consuming from the wrong people?

SPEAKER_02 39:13

I think it's the latter. So I think that look, I mean, you you you guys, you you choose you choose guests based on who you feel will probably bring in the most amount of views and who has the most amount of of of um of momentum and and who has the most amount of availability. So I can't say it's you. I think a lot of it is uh before the podcast started, there was you guys were speaking about you know the guys who come with this um this get rich, you know, kind of quick scheme. Exactly. So I mean there's a lot of that that drives um that enables those guys to kind of got a lot about like a whole bunch of attention and and and popularity. But I think inevitably at the end of the day, if you guys are kind of the gatekeepers of of what people want to kind of consume, and if you generally feel that it's your responsibility to help instill um and and pass on skills that you generally feel will be important to helping develop people so that they can develop the continent. Yeah, I think it's important to be mindful of who you kind of put onto your platforms. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:18

Because you know, I I have an entertainment background, you know. I'm a recording artist, right? Yes, I was a recording artist when I was young and energetic. But I own a record label, management company, distribution company. Then I went into video production, movies, which is why I have equipment to enable me to do this. So when I started this podcast, everybody was surprised because I have access to the biggest artists, the biggest actors, the biggest entertainment people, influencers and stuff. And I could get massive views if I filled my podcast with them. But then I asked myself that but with what I'm talking about, are they the right people to speak to it? You know, I think we've gone to a world where we are looking for instant gratification, where let's say I'm starting a podcast and I'm thinking, ooh, I want to get 1 million views in the first week, as opposed to in the discussion. Do you get what I mean? And I think it's something that is worrying a lot of people. It goes back to the social media problem where let's say I'm honored that you guys decided to be on the podcast. Because if you check my numbers, my numbers may not be as much as somebody who's interviewing the top artist and the top, you know, but I believe that we have a responsibility, it goes back to African excellence, that in whatever you are doing, be excellent about it. So if you say you are doing a podcast on mindsets and excellence and success, then bring people who can speak to that and not just people who will draw attention to what you're doing, which I think most people are feeling at that because, like it's like you rightfully said, if I want to do clickbait and I want to get people to come and watch this as quick as possible, I can name this episode, you know, 10 ways to get rich in three months. Everybody wants to get rich in three months, but there's no podcast that can tell you how to get rich in three months. It's like when you watch those fitness things or the fitness apps, you know, you download the fitness app, they'll ask you a few questions, this, that. I I downloaded one for workouts and it asked me one, two, three questions, blah blah blah. And then it promised me I was going to lose 30 kg in two months.

SPEAKER_01 42:38

I was like, come out with minimal exercise, eat what you like.

SPEAKER_03 42:42

Yeah, it's not it's not possible. Anybody who promises you that is just trying to get your attention to monetize you in a different way, right? But we also need to have a way of protecting the public, yes, because the end consumer may not know, they've not been through it, you know. That 17-year-old boy has not opened a business before. So when somebody does a podcast or does a live and tells you that if you follow these steps, you can open a business and make a million dollars within the first 24 months. He doesn't know it's not true. Right. So when he's asked to pay just$50 for a course that will teach you how to make a million dollars in 24 months, who wouldn't do that?

SPEAKER_01 43:28

Right. I I think you have a tough job. You know, you really do. I think, and it's interesting, like I said, I think for me, one of the biggest draws to come here today was just the questions. I thought your questions were very thoughtful and really spoke of a desire to draw out the important things in the conversation. Unfortunately, I don't think those important things are what people want to hear. You know, I don't think telling people, you know, there is no quick way to do it, there is no easy way to. Do it, you may never get there. You know, the statistics are clear. I think one in ten sort of startup businesses succeeds, the rest fail. People don't want to hear that kind of stuff. And so for you to build a platform that is authentic, that is genuine, and that is trying to draw out the types of things, yeah, you you in some sense you need to be supported because I think it will be very challenging. It'll be very difficult. People want to be told other things and they would they want to be told, you know, there's a simple way or there's a surefire way to get it done. Yeah. And the truth is there isn't. There really isn't. And even those who get there, the path to success is difficult and it is fraught with uncertainty and a lot of hard work and pain. And that doesn't sell, I don't think.

SPEAKER_03 44:46

Because me always saying to be successful at anything is very simple, but it's not easy. Because let's say I want to be fit, I want to have six pack, I want to be muscular. We all know work out every day over a long period of time and you will get there.

SPEAKER_01 45:04

And eat well.

SPEAKER_03 45:05

And eat well and sleep on time.

SPEAKER_01 45:06

Sleep on time.

SPEAKER_03 45:07

It's like very basic principles. But going on that journey is not easy. The same way to build wealth, like anybody who understands compound interest, understands that doing the most basic investment over a 20-year period, you will become wealthy. But staying on that course for 20 years when you know you want to spoil yourself today, you feel like splurging on this car or doing this or doing this grand scheme that you thought was going to work and it backfires, that is the difficult part. And I feel we don't tell people that enough. We make it look like, oh, it's easy. It's not easy, it's difficult, but it's simple. So if you know, I was talking to Vucy, one of my favorite things that Vucy said was, he said, whenever anybody asks him strategies, he never talks about strategies because he believes in principles.

SPEAKER_04 46:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:03

Because the strategies will always change. You know, that person who opened this type of business 20 years ago and made success from it, if you open that same type of business today, it will probably fail. But if you maintain the same principles, which is work hard enough for long enough, consume enough pain, have a proper purpose where you are serving people, you know, once you have those types of principles, you will succeed. But it's boring to tell people that.

SPEAKER_02 46:31

It doesn't sound.

SPEAKER_03 46:31

Yeah, it's more fun to say, oh, do drop shipping, you know, do affiliate marketing, and within six months, uh, it doesn't work like that.

SPEAKER_01 46:40

Not so easy. Not so easy. I'll say the other thing that's interesting for me, and which is as I was saying at the beginning, if you think about success, depends on how you define success. Um I think for us in Africa, building businesses, building manufacturing businesses is my current passion. You know, I've always been passionate about businesses and investing and whatnot, but more recently, I'd say in the last five or so years, I am even more passionate about creating value and creating value for everyday people, ordinary people. So lots of businesses in Africa, especially the ones that have gained a lot of public attention, are fintech businesses. They are, you know, entertainment type, content type businesses. Those businesses do not fundamentally create that much economic value. That's economic value shifting from here to there to there. Insurance, you know, banking. They are good and they're important and they play a role, but they do not intrinsically create value. I believe manufacturing, you take you take raw materials and you make a widget and you sell that widget is very important for creating value, for creating jobs, for especially jobs at different levels in the in the economy. But manufacturing is not sexy. It's not. You know, it is not. We I've just sort of in a professional context embarked on a journey where we are trying to build a packaging business, a pan-African packaging company. It is the toughest thing you can imagine. Trying to build a business in in countries where there's no electricity, no reliable water supply, its logistics is challenging, it's tough all around.

SPEAKER_04 48:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:31

And yet, if you think about how to create jobs, you think about how to convert things, because that's what that's what great economies are built on. You take something that the country naturally has and you convert it into something of value. You create intrinsic value. As opposed to taking money that already exists from a system from this guy and giving it to that guy, and you make a commission, which is what most of the industries that are sort of more, you know, technology and um and finance and fintech and all of that stuff. Make no mistake, there's a lot of returns as an investor to be made there. But my my sense is we're not paying as much attention to the things that are basic, to manufacturing, to logistics, to building rail lines, to building roads, or whatever else technology will enable us to build, to make that network effect across the economies. So that's a challenge that, you know, I feel personally drawn to now. At this stage, I mean, I at my age, I shouldn't be doing new things.

SPEAKER_03 49:34

But I feel never stopped doing anything.

SPEAKER_01 49:36

Well, that's true. That's true. That that's not again how we were taught growing up. We were taught, you know, keep your job, work hard, make some savings and retire. But I believe, you know, if I think about look around the continent and think about the the great industrialists, they're not that many. There's not that many people to look at and say this guy built an industry or a series or set of industries doing something that created value. That's a problem. I think it's a problem for us.

SPEAKER_03 50:03

You know, Cody Sanchez, she's someone I watch a lot and she terms it as boring businesses. And she says that real wealth comes from doing the boring businesses, but it's not sexy, so nobody wants to do that. No. So she she talks about something where she says, Who do you think is the richest woman in the world? And everybody would instantly think, oh, maybe it's opera wing free. Or like you go to someone with some flashy job, but the richest woman in the world, I can't remember her name. That's what shows how boring it is. She makes roofing sheets. That's not sexy. She makes roofing sheets. Like, who thinks about the person who makes roofing sheets, the person making the bricks? But the truth of the matter is the boring businesses end up solving the real problems in society. And if we take Africa, you know, the beauty about Africa for any businessman or entrepreneur or an investor is business comes from solving problems. And Africa is currently in a state where we are trying to solve our problems. So there's unlimited wealth to be made by solving our real problems, by manufacturing, by building things that, like I always tell people that look at your village or look at your community and take that problem that has been disturbing you, that product that you are not getting access to, that thing that is every time you go, it's out of stock, or every time there's this portal over here, and solve those problems. If you want to build wealth, don't be selfish about it. Rather look at what am I suffering with? What is this whole community suffering with? Let me sacrifice myself to solve that problem. And it's the easiest way to build wealth. But that brings me to something. Um there's a little bit of a problem when it comes to sacrificing, yeah, and especially with this generation, yeah, you know, from our ego to our wanting instant gratification, it's very difficult for people to sacrifice for other people. How do you overcome that and how can you advise other young people to overcome that so they can build great trust too?

SPEAKER_02 52:08

Right. So let me give you a bit of context. I recently started working um about 18 months ago for a private capital business, um, which is basically a startup. And I would like to think I've thrown myself completely at it. And I think oftentimes my boss is fascinated at the extent to which I've applied myself. But the reason that is, is because I watched my dad build a similar business. Okay, and I understood the the type of sacrifice that was required to get something onto his feet. So in my case, again, everything that I've learned for the most part has kind of been through osmosis. So I having watched people build their own businesses, um, you understand the the type of work that's required to get things going, to build, to to to make something of yourself. So I think that's the one thing. I think platforms like this are extremely important in helping re reframe um and and readjust people's mindset about what success looks like. Because if you don't go the get rich scheme kind of path, and you and you bring on people who have had to endure a whole bunch of hardship to get to where they are. Like, for example, I'm obsessed with Blackstone story um and Steve Schultzman, and you hear him speak about they went and knocked on every fund manager's door for cash and no one was interested in getting their money. So those stories are extremely important because in seasons where people are you know in the thick of it, the people that they look to they can recognize and understand and appreciate that they also went through it, so it's not abnormal for them. So, yeah, those are kind of my thoughts.

SPEAKER_03 53:49

True. Because there's a saying that says, if you don't sacrifice for what you want, then what you want becomes a sacrifice. Yeah, so I think it's very difficult when we are living in a current generation where sacrifice is being thrown out the window. You know, there's the there's this thing I watched where they said strong men, but they said hard times create strong men. Strong men create easy times, and easy times create weak men. You get me? Absolutely, and I've started to notice just by analyzing that what is happening is we are solving too many problems, that life is becoming too easy. So it's creating a generation which feels I should be comfortable.

SPEAKER_01 54:35

Entitled.

SPEAKER_03 54:36

Exactly. You know, when I watched somebody talk about the fact that the hot shower was invented 50 years ago, which means anybody who's lived in the past 50 years has been entitled to something that kings in the past never received. Like at first, for you to eat and have two pieces of chicken on your on your food, that was a feast. That's a king's feast. But now you can walk into any restaurant and order four pieces of chicken. Like if you go to a restaurant and you order wings and it's less than eight pieces, it's like, oh come on, are you guys even serious? So we are now in a world where we've solved so many problems that we are so comfortable and entitled, people don't understand why they need to sacrifice. As opposed to older generations where you got that if I don't sacrifice, my family is not getting food to eat, my village won't get water. You know, now it's so comfortable. And if we are not careful to let people understand the beauty and sacrifice, people won't be able to work hard enough to create the next comfort.

SPEAKER_01 55:44

I completely agree. I'll give you a funny illustration. So we've got two dogs, two German shepherds, and um I I always tell my my children and my wife that in the natural habitat or in the natural course of evolution, how these animals were created is not how they live. So for the longest time, we gave our dogs two meals a day. You know, put the food in a bowl, put it in front of them. These are working dogs, right? And they are bred and they are built to run, to chase, to figure things out, to hunt, to now they live in an enclosure and we give them a bowl of food in the morning, and we give them a bowl of food in the af in the evening, and they sit around and they do very little. Yeah. And to your point, their lives are so easy that I bet you if you took the original, the original genetics of that breed of dog and you compare them with our dogs, our dogs would fall way short because their lives are too easy. Yeah. So 100% agree with you, Richie. I think, and and Bogani spoke about it in terms of their generation has been brought up by parents who believe their job is to take every obstacle out of their children's lives, is to make sure everything that the children want is available on demand, is to make sure that, you know, every whim, every desire is catered for. That's challenging. I think you create very weak people, people that are not resilient, people that will struggle at the first sign of, you know, challenges, and you it's it's no wonder. You know, lots of lots of all types of health issues created for a generation that theoretically has most things that they want.

SPEAKER_03 57:32

You know, so and also like the depression is on the highest when we solve most of our problems.

SPEAKER_01 57:39

You know, you you ask why, and then you can you contrast that with um I mean I like to read all sorts of interesting things, and and particularly autobiographies, and and you know, one particular one that's of interest is this there's a book called House of Morgan, and it's a story of the JP Morgan, you know, and Morgan Stanley businesses and the family that founded them. What's less interesting, it is interesting, but not as interesting, uh the family themselves, but what was in their environment. I mean, these are people who built, you know, a massive financial institution at a time when the world was going through depression, through first world war, through second world war, all sorts of issues. But if you look at the things that they were trying to solve, big problems, how to fund industrialization in the US, you know, how to fund oil exploration, how to build railways for the United States. These are the problems that they went about solving with their finance house. And that is in the midst of extreme hardships, they saw that you talk about purpose. These guys were so influential that they felt it was their moral responsibility as the partnership at JP Morgan to intervene in the financing of Water Europe. Yeah. Right? As imagine a financial institution that says it is our moral responsibility, because of the influence and the connections that we have to play a part in the rebuilding of some African country, right? That's understanding that hardships can actually create great men, to your point, can create people that are problem solvers, can create people that genuinely add value in life. And we don't have that. You know, we we are so interested in making our lives easy, the lives of our children easy, and it's unlikely that we'll create greatness.

SPEAKER_03 59:35

You say every time you solve a problem for your child or for someone you're looking after, you take away an opportunity for them to grow.

SPEAKER_01 59:42

Agreed. Uh, and another illustration that I like is the illustration of making wine. Good winemakers sometimes will stress the grapes, as they call it. They'll they'll they'll make they'll make the conditions harsh for the grapes. Those grapes will produce the best wine. Sometimes they'll set them on fire. Interesting. You know, just to make it challenging for those grapes to grow, to mature, and to produce what would be the best quality wine. So I agree. That's that's um, I think part of what we need to think about in raising our children.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:14

Well, Gan, I want you to do something for me, right? So the entire concept of this podcast is to help people have a mindset to be able to succeed. Yeah I want you to imagine you could drop one mindset shift into the mind of the person watching right now to take them closer to success. What would it be?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:32

I think success you can define it, or it's underpinned by it's serendipitous to an extent, right? So we believe as a family, like my dad mentioned, that it comes as a consequence as a consequence of God's hand in your life. Um but to the average person, it comes off as a result of like an like an average, well not an average, but a a random event, a random event that enabled you to get to the point where success comes, right? But what is required is hard work. Okay, that's what's required, right? So understanding that to my dad's point, not everyone's gonna be successful. Um in the definition of the world, of the world, correct. The way the world understands success, not everyone's gonna be successful, but in order to give yourself the best chance to be successful, like the prerequisite um is hard work. So that's it. Like there's no there's no get rich scheme, there's no six-month thing. This is like a 20-year put your head down and really go at it. So that would probably be the thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:37

I like that.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:38

Charles, how about you?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:41

Very little to add to what Bongani says. I I I think the hard work every day consistently to improve the small things, to get better at the small things, to improve the margins, to learn from the mistakes and work harder to get better. There is there is absolutely no substitute in terms of if if you define success, let's say, for the purposes of your audience, I think there's I think there's financial wealth and and and monetary terms that miss the point on success. But if you strictly speaking, talk about trying to build something, and it doesn't have to be a business, it could be a school, it could be a church, it could be a family, even, right? There is a journey and a uh an understanding that consistently doing the right things over a long period of time is going to be your lot. If you're looking for the shortcut, the sort of get-rich quick schemes that Bongan is talking about, you may even have a degree of success for a time. It is very difficult to sustain. It's very difficult to build something that will sustain over a lifetime or even beyond, like you're talking about intergenerational success that is passed on and so on. It comes from just hard work, putting your head down and doing the right thing consistently over time, building that muscle to do the right thing, building that muscle to strive through the challenges and to strive through the difficulties is really fundamentally what I think mindset shift would be necessary for anyone out there that's trying to figure out what to make of their lives. Again, I think very important to, for me, very important to make it clear that we don't believe monetary achievement or monetary accomplishment is the definition of success. But this applies to good health. If you want to have a good marriage, which we think is very important in life, you know, for us as a family, certainly from a value standpoint, you have to work hard at it. You know, if you if you want to have good friendships, which are vital in terms of your general well-being and how you add value to society, you have to work at it. So there is no substitute for working hard.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:15

Thank you, thank you. Thank both of you so much, and thank you for making my first two-person interview so seamless. You guys made it successful. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:24

Thank you for having us. We appreciate it. And and like I said, hopefully, your audience out there, the few that will listen and find value in this, take something truly meaningful out of the conversation.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:35

Thank you, thank you, and thank you for watching. And I'm hoping that this conversation has taken you one step closer to becoming the mastermind that I know you deserve to be. Thank you for watching this episode. Now, the mastermind's dream is about building a community of people who have the right mindset and are ready to take their success into their own hands. So do me this wonderful favor, subscribe and share with anybody out there who you believe you want to see have the right mindset to succeed so that together we can all become the masterminds we deserve to be.