We Created God in Our Image: Panji Anoff Part 1 || Masterminds Podcast EP78

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Most people spend their lives accepting ideas they never chose. Panji Anoff has spent his asking why.

In Part 1 of this special episode of the Masterminds Podcast, Richie Mensah sits down with Panji Anoff, the legendary Ghanaian music producer, pioneer of hiplife, and the architect of a sound that quietly became the foundation of global Afrobeats. This is one of the most philosophically rich conversations ever recorded on this show. Panji breaks down why African society is among the most advanced on earth, why religion has distorted the most powerful indigenous practices Africa had, why he chose to leave religion at kindergarten age, how Toto Mechanic was born from a challenge his father gave him, how he deliberately engineered the sound that became Afrobeats, and why he believes we created God in our image and not the other way around. This is Part 1 of a two-part conversation. Come ready to think.

In this episode, you'll learn:

• Why African society is more socially advanced than European society and what we have allowed religion to replace
• Why being an outsider from birth gave Panji a healthy disregard for societal norms that others never question
• Why money is the cheapest way of showing love and what Ghanaian culture understands about human companionship
• How the placebo effect proves the mind is the most powerful healing tool in existence
• Why we are our habits and how changing your habits is the only way to change your life
• Why Panji chose to reject religion at kindergarten age and what sheep and goats had to do with it
• The exact challenge his father gave him that produced Toto Mechanic
• How he deliberately combined pop and reggaeton to engineer the sound that became Afrobeats
• Why he believes we created God in our image and what that means for morality, faith, and how we treat each other

Chapters

00:00 – Intro
 07:11 – Growing Up Between Ghana and Germany
 14:59 – African Society Is One of the Most Advanced in the World
 20:52 – Money Is the Cheapest Way of Showing Love
 25:16 – The Mind Is More Powerful Than We Have Been Taught
 31:48 – We Are Our Habits
 37:04 – Why He Questioned Religion at Kindergarten Age
 49:55 – The Origin of Toto Mechanic
 54:10 – How Afrobeats Was Deliberately Created
 01:13:12 – We Created God in Our Image

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:00

You know, recently Bill Gates said Africa will never unite. What a stupid man. I think African society is one of the most advanced in the world. I feel that we have allowed religion to distort our indigenous culture. Money is the cheapest way of showing love. We are not what we do once in a while. We are our habits. So if you want to change anything in your life, just change your habits.

SPEAKER_01 0:23

100%.

SPEAKER_05 0:24

I questioned religion very early. How old were you when you started questioning? Kindergarten. I knew goats were smarter than sheep. Why do I want to be a sheep? Right? I believe heaven is in my mind. I am not religious. So I have to generate my own faith.

SPEAKER_03 0:37

Why aren't you religious? Because let me ask you two questions. Because I think these two questions I'm coming to ask are the reason most people choose to be religious. So I want to see your answer to the two questions. The first one is what do you believe happens when we die? Before we jump into the conversation, I wanted to take this opportunity to thank you for supporting and deciding to watch this episode. But now I have a favor subscribe to the channel. Subscribing to the channel helps me and the entire mastermind team to continue bringing you wonderful conversations and episodes that bring you closer to being the mastermind you deserve to be. So join the community. I am so excited for this conversation. Let me tell you the truth. This is one episode I wanted to do the first week I was shooting. But I said no. Because when this man and I sit down, we are going to talk for 10 hours. So now I don't know how I'm going to shorten this conversation because this man, you know him as a legend. Everybody knows him for the amazing things he's done in music, in actually in movies, so many different areas, events. But the reason why he's here is not his many accomplishments, it's his mind. Because I don't know many people in this world who are able to absorb so much knowledge. He knows a lot about everything, any topic you ask him about, he is well read on it. He understands it, he knows how to apply it to his life. I wish more people had a mind like the man sitting in front of me right now. Please help me welcome Panji Anu. My bossman.

SPEAKER_05 2:41

My brother, my bossman, my friend, my colleague, my uh my idol when it comes to running a record label. Oh, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Because uh we have all tried, but I think your system you set up, especially when you had your brother working with you, I thought was fantastic. Thank you. Thank you very much. Um it's I always looked at that model. Um, you know, even though I have worked with artists, I've always been fascinated by artist development, and less so by artist management. But working in Ghana, I was forced to adopt artist management. Yeah. It's like develop the artist for who? And and even who was interested in the kind of artist I was interested in developing. Yeah. So I was forced into management, which you know, for most of my life, I when I worked in America, for instance, I was doing development. I had a partner who did the management, you know. So that was a good situation for me. I was never, it's like management is it wasn't your call then? No, no, it's uh not because of the direction, but because of the day-to-day, yes, the day-to-day drudgery of management doesn't appeal to my personality. Yeah, so I struggle to do it. Whereas artist development is something that I'm fascinated by, so I'm able to put a lot of energy into it.

SPEAKER_03 4:08

So there are two different sciences, yes, they are different things, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 4:12

But somehow, Lynx, you manage to get them both. And I mean, of course, I I've been to Lynx many times. I I saw especially the development of Kiddie and Kwame Eugene, um, and also the extra work with Adina and so on. So, you know, I really think Tele, you guys did a great job. Thank you. So I admire you. That's that side of the business, dear. Oh, thank you. Where we were weak, you were strong.

SPEAKER_03 4:35

Now that I've retired, don't you admire me again.

SPEAKER_05 4:37

Oh well, I watched your last podcast and I thought it was fantastic. And I I remember I told you. So I think that's when you decided, okay, it's time. Yeah. Emranason.

SPEAKER_03 4:49

You know, I always said it to myself that 40 new part because I I feel God blessed me with a lot of different talents, and I had to hone in on one set of skills, and it's it's worked for me for a long time, but I always felt like I need to be able to use the other talents to do more and not let my only legacy be what I decided to start with, you know. So I set a goal for myself that 23 years because I said when I was 17.

SPEAKER_05 5:19

I remember I remember. Yeah, I remember your uh the guy who was trying to teach you guitar in Achimoto. Yes, Nana. Yeah, Nana. He told me, he said, Oh, Tali, I met this young guy and I showed him a few chords, and last week he came back and he had used those chords to compose some music. So so I mean, he he told me, as in Tali, he has met somebody who is exceptionally talented. Nana was very impressed because most people, you know, if you learn chords, the first thing you do is not try to create music with them, but that was what you did. As soon as you had a few chords, you started composing songs, and obviously the songs were good, so he was impressed. Oh, thank you, thank you. So that's what 23 years ago. So I I heard about you more than 23 years ago.

SPEAKER_03 6:05

Yeah, yeah, true. That was 25 or 26 years ago. Hey, time flying.

SPEAKER_05 6:10

Oh, yeah, yeah. You know, word goes around. It's people notice if you are exceptional at doing something and they tell people. And I think that, you know, before social media and so on, word of mouth, social media is like an extension of word of mouth. Of word of mouth, yeah, true. But you know, be apply yourself to something and people will notice that you are trying to be exceptional, yeah. And trying to me, if you try to do anything and you try hard enough, I believe you will succeed.

SPEAKER_03 6:42

See, you've already jumped into the mindset. I like it, I like it. Okay, let's now it's like you are interviewing me. Let me let me turn it back around on you. Let's start with. I always like to try and understand the make of a person, how you started. So you have a Ghanaian father, German mother.

SPEAKER_05 6:58

Yes, but I was born in London, so my parents communicated in English, that was their common language. Okay, so English was also my first language. Most people, if your mother is German, you speak German first, or you know, you well, my father would always always have spoken English or P, but because English was the common language in my house, it was an alien language for both of my parents.

SPEAKER_02 7:19

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_05 7:20

You know, so yes, I think you know, being mixed or half-caste, whatever you want to call it, mulattu. Half cool uh is a blessing and a curse. Okay. It's a curse because you never feel you belong anywhere. In my father's country, they will say, hey, O'Bruni, you know, go back to your country. Yeah. In my mother's country, they will say, hey, Neger, go back to your country. So where is my country? Right. So but because you are always an outsider, it gives you freedom. So now I don't have to do what everybody else around me is doing, because I'm an outsider. So so I think that that is the freedom of belonging to multiple cultures. The other freedom is that you realize that, okay, to my mother, this is cast in stone. To my father, this is cast in stone. And they might be two conflicting opinions. So what you also learn very early is that culture is or social practices are meaningless. In Germany, nobody cares if you greet with your left hand, nobody cares if you give them something with your left hand. In Ghana, they do. Right? So uh why is it that in Ghana your using your right hand is so important? Of course, there are reasons to to it, etc. etc. But as I got older, I realized that most people that I know don't even wipe their bottos with their left. So the whole principle of you greet with your right hand is because you use your left hand to wipe your bottos. And I realized that the only people who use their left hand to wipe their bottos is lefties.

SPEAKER_02 9:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 9:12

You understand what I mean? It's my generation, we were not, we weren't adhering to use your left as much as maybe my father's generation or my grandmother's generation. So the principle on which that rule is built may no longer exist. So I think. But the rule still exists. The rule still exists, but the rule is meaningless. Yeah. If most people are using their right hand, right? So it's I think being an outsider makes you look at culture as not being as important as other people assume it is.

SPEAKER_00 9:45

True.

SPEAKER_05 9:46

Or societal norms or societal rules and regulations. Oh, don't do this, don't do this. Why not? You understand what I mean? Maybe in Ghana it's not normal to do this, but maybe in China it is, or in Japan, or in Brazil, or in Germany, somewhere else it is normal to do it.

SPEAKER_02 10:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 10:01

So if it's abnormal here, I I don't belong 100%. So why should I follow the rules 100%?

SPEAKER_02 10:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 10:11

So right from an early age, I think I was blessed to be able to one have a healthy disregard for all societal norms because I knew that they were not universal laws. And that's why they say travel and see. It's good to travel and go somewhere else where you realize these norms are not universal laws. They are they are cultural laws or they are they are geolocational regulations. So from an early age, I was able to you know disregard many of those things, and I think it enabled me to question a lot and also choose my own path.

SPEAKER_04 10:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 10:51

Because I'm not bound by my father's culture, I'm not bound by my mother's culture. In fact, it's my job to forge my own or choose what I think is good for my mother's culture, choose what I think is good from my father's culture. Of course, I think there are many things about culture which is good. You know, Ghana has a culture of hospitality, Ghana has a culture of sharing. You know, it's uh it's if I went to my mother's country and you know, we had food, we did the same thing that we do in Ghana. You invite everybody to come and eat with you. And Germans considered it weird. You know, it's like it's yenjidier. You understand what I mean? It's in Ghana, the at the very least, oh, means Sadim. Yeah. But otherwise, if you're hungry and somebody says yendidier, you come and eat. You don't think that, oh, the food is not enough for us.

SPEAKER_02 11:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 11:41

In our culture, if there are 10 of us eating and if this is all the food we have, we will all share that food, and however far it takes us, it's okay for now. True. Right? It's not that, oh, I can't eat because if I eat, you won't be full. Yeah, if we share, neither of us will be full. It doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_03 11:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 11:59

You know, we are not eating because we are, we are eating because we are sharing.

SPEAKER_03 12:03

There's there's more of a community certain when it comes to Africa and Ghana in particular. You know, I even mentioned this. Anytime that people ask me about things like slavery and all, I always mention that, you know, Africans never thought to colonize all those kinds of things because the part of the world that we come from is blessed. Yes. It's blessed with nature, blessed with food, blessed with abundance. So we are so used to sharing, we don't really think of dominating. Whereas in the West, the nature that they were given was hostile, it was very hostile. So they had to develop a mindset of this is mine, I have to protect this, because if they don't, they won't survive. So it really goes to show that yeah, a lot of the culture actually comes from, like you're saying, it's it's where you are born, it's environmental. Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 12:57

In Ghana, if you share all the food you have today, and in our traditional setting, just walk into the bush, you'll find water yam, or you find snails, you find mushrooms, you find D board, you know, you will find food, you'll find a mango. Yeah, you know, and it's all year round there is some food that is in season.

SPEAKER_02 13:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 13:19

So I I agree that because we don't come from uh an environment of lack, but from an environment of abundance, we are also willing to share because we know tomorrow there will be more from somewhere. Exactly. Right? It's there's never been water shortages, you know, there's there's never been uh droughts in this part of the world, you know, that I know of. Okay, they can say the rains have failed. It doesn't mean people will go hungry, they might eat less. Yeah, but they will survive until next year. So I think that is part of it. But also I think that in Europe they will say, oh, you know, we have lost what they have in Africa. Because you're it's difficult for Europeans to imagine somebody is more developed than them. But I think when it comes to community and society, Africa and other uh there are there are many societies that are far more developed than European society. Japanese society is a very important thing. I'll come to the nations, yeah, is far more advanced than European society. African society is far more advanced than European society. Yeah. Not necessarily in terms of manufacturing and agriculture, but in terms of how we interact with each other and how we treat each other, yeah, right, is more advanced. So Europeans assume it's something they had in the past and they've lost, but they never developed it because they were busy developing other things. Yeah. Right? So a society will excel at whatever they spend a lot of their time and energy trying to develop. I think African society is one of the most advanced in the world. I feel that we have allowed religion to distort our indigenous culture, and we are replacing many practices with religious practices. For instance, if I marry someone in a church and all my church members are there, will my church members be there when my wife and I have problems?

SPEAKER_00 15:22

No, they won't. Not necessarily.

SPEAKER_05 15:25

But if we go and do a knocking, my family is there, your family is there, we've exchanged the bottle of alcohol. Yeah, the day your family brings the bottle of alcohol back to my house, for instance, as a sign of even we will talk. We can say we won't accept the we won't accept it. Yeah. Yenji, let's sit down and talk. So a marriage is between two families, it's not just two individuals. And two individuals, anybody who has been married knows that marriage takes a lot of work. Yeah. Right? It it's it's like uh a 1922 canoe. Every week, Biawbe patch a one corner, right? And yet it will take you to see every day. Yeah, but you know you constantly have to patch, patch, repair here, repair here, repair here, repair here. Once in a while you have to buy a new society, outboard motor or whatever. But the fundamental boat will keep functioning so long as you keep repairing it. And I think all, not even marriage, all relationships.

SPEAKER_02 16:24

All relationships, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 16:25

Yes, they require constant maintenance and patching. So we've thrown away our traditional marriage, which is a fusion of two families, and replaced it with a white wedding. What is white if I marry somebody? What is white about the wedding? Okay, somebody can say I'm a white man, but you know that it's marrying in a white wedding. Two Africans are getting married, yes. So what is the obsession with the white wedding? You know, so I think we we have allowed religion and especially the business of religion, yeah, right, to substitute many practices that were cheaper, more efficient, longer lasting, right? We've replaced it with something more expensive, very fickle, because the church members are just coming there to eat the cake and drink the fanta ego, right? It's not they are not invested in this relationship because they are not your family members.

SPEAKER_03 17:27

People need to start paying to come to weddings, though. Because why am I the one getting married and I have to spend so much to make you happy? People need to start paying to attend the wedding.

SPEAKER_05 17:36

But this this is here again is a difference that I have seen between let's say my life in Ghana and let's say my life in Germany. In Ghana, if it's my birthday, I will spread everybody.

SPEAKER_02 17:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 17:50

In Europe, if it's your birthday, everybody has to spread you. Right? So it's we look at things differently. And also in Ghana, if I tell somebody, Tali, make we go sit down for some spot, then go drink small. Once I invite you, the bill is on me. The bill is on me, yes. It's um I want your company. I don't want your I don't need your money. Um I because I want you to come, I'm telling you that, okay, instead of me going to drink 10 beers, let me and you go, we'll drink five each.

SPEAKER_02 18:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 18:20

And that will be much more enjoyable for me than for me to go and sit down alone and drink 10 beers. So if I invite you somewhere, the assumption is that Charlie, I've calculated for me and you both.

SPEAKER_02 18:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 18:31

In England, if somebody says, Oh, let's go out for a meal, or in Germany, or even the American system, oh, let's go out for a meal, when the bill comes, they say, Okay, I had spaghetti and a glass of wine, that means 23. You had this and this, so you have to pay 36. So it's like there are a few times in my life when I was caught embarrassed because somebody says, Oh, let's go here. And I say, Okay, let's go. But you are not inviting me. You want me to come and come and pay for myself, right? So tell you, one year faster, tell you go any money.

SPEAKER_03 19:04

And that's the thing you're saying with the culture in the beginning. Because somebody who's used to this in Ghana, they know that oh, Richie said, Oh, let's go and drink. So Richie is buying. Yes. So maybe they get to London or they get to New York and their friends say, Oh, let's go and drink. Yeah, then they just get up and go. Yeah, when you get there, you will see. Everyone's biggest aim is to build wealth. Now, anyone who knows what they are about will tell you the one true way to build wealth is to have a system that gains that wealth over time. Now, most people are suffering to what system or what tool can they use? How do they get to invest easily? How do they get to invest over time? Small amounts, compound interest, and build their wealth. Well, that tool is achieved by Petra. Download Achieve by Petra now and let's build wealth together.

SPEAKER_05 19:56

So it's, I mean, culture varies, but I think that our culture is very generous and acknowledges the cost of human companionship. Because if I say let's go somewhere, it means I want to spend time with you. Yeah. And I'm willing to pay to spend your time. Even if it comes to relationships, you understand what I mean? It's if uh a woman calls you to come to my house, come and service me. At least obey your transport. And vice versa, right? Because I require your time and your energy. You know, so it's we we are sure, money is a currency, right? The me, one of my favorite expressions is one of my uncles, may he rest in peace. He said, Money is the cheapest way of showing love. True. Right? So it doesn't matter. If I want to show you that, tally, I appreciate I love you. Tally, I just give you something, right? Because you know I suffered to make this. I don't have to give it to you, but I'm giving it to you because I want to show you that there's something about you that I appreciate.

SPEAKER_02 21:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 21:05

So I don't think whatever currency it is, I'm not if it, whether it's money or it's gold, or it's, you know, I'll buy you a sheep or I'll bring you a bunch of plantain or bananas. Yeah. I think we are very quick to appreciate each other and sacrifice to show our appreciation. In European culture, they will say, oh, it's it's it's wrong. You know, it's it's wrong for me to dash you something to show appreciation, right? It's a different way of looking at things. So, but I I like the culture of appreciation. If I appreciate something you've done, I need to show you. It's not just my mouth I'll use to say. Yeah, I want to show you with my sweat and my toil.

SPEAKER_03 21:47

And not say let's split the bill.

SPEAKER_05 21:49

No, no, ah, split the bill. Well, I mean, of course, it is uh it's a different culture. I also understand why it exists that way.

SPEAKER_03 22:00

All the way from the individualistic mindset, you know.

SPEAKER_05 22:03

I believe so, yes.

SPEAKER_03 22:04

Because the way the West had always been set up, you need to survive. The least mistake you make, you won't survive. Like when you look at the Vikings and the fact that at a period they need to leave their country and go and pillage in other countries before they can survive. They need to go and fight other people to find food to come and feed their family.

SPEAKER_05 22:26

Now, how did they survive before they started pillaging? Why don't we ask that question? Good question. I've never thought about that. Right? So I think sometimes it's not about survival, it's about trying to increase the quality of your life at the expense of someone else. Because you don't consider them your brother or your sister, you are willing to sacrifice them for your own benefit.

SPEAKER_02 22:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 22:49

I don't think that and it's primarily because uh there is no concept of to go into. Yes. Yeah. So if we are all one, futunfu no f like the crocodiles, it's like if I eat the food, it's going into your stomach, you too. If you eat, it's going into my stomach. So that is our philosophy of life. So the desire, you know, or the willingness to sacrifice something because they are not connected to you. I think in Africa we believe, or at least historically, we believe much more that we were connected to everything. We are connected to the river, we are connected to the tree. Yeah, we are in the city. We are connected to the rain. Yes. Because there's somebody who can command the rain to come because we are connected to the rain. So, but others will say, Oh, no, of course you can't call the rain. But, you know, I have seen in my own experience, it might be a coincidence, but it's like now, it's been raining continuously for days. We had a shoot, we needed sunshine. Somebody said, Oh, he can guarantee us from the moment we not a huge amount of money. Let's say in terms of today's money, maybe 2,500 CDs or something. If we once we pay him that money, he'll come and perform some rituals. How many days? Three days. Okay, 2,500. It will not rain for three days. If it rains, come back and collect your money. So that's what convinced me. Ah, this guy guy is giving me money back guarantee.

SPEAKER_02 24:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 24:23

I'm willing. Charlie, you you and I know sometimes when you're shooting a commercial, you're spending $50,000 a day.

SPEAKER_02 24:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 24:30

So what is $250 as an insurance policy for $25,000 or $50,000? Well, and plus he's giving me money back guarantee. So I said, Charlie, I can't afford if this shoot stretches from three to five or six days.

SPEAKER_03 24:44

As an extra $50,000 every day.

SPEAKER_05 24:46

Every day, right? I'm losing, we are losing that much money. So let me pay this man and let me see if he will deliver. I swear the man delivered. The moment we said it's a wrap, the heavens opened. He was on set.

SPEAKER_03 24:59

Interesting.

SPEAKER_05 25:00

So it's like he's let go and it started raining immediately. And that was three days, but zero rain.

SPEAKER_03 25:07

You see, as I'm here and I'm hearing this, my mind is telling me, but that's not possible. But the question is, why is it that I've been trained to think that's not possible? Because you hear that a pastor healed somebody in church, and somehow that in my mind, I also believe that is not possible.

SPEAKER_05 25:26

Exactly. Because I have been to crusades, right? And you know, the people who were healed, you see the human response to a placebo, right, is remarkable. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:43

You know, my father was a doctor, he always used to say please explain placebo for those who don't know what a placebo is.

SPEAKER_05 25:48

Okay, placebo is something that doesn't work, but it makes it has an impact. So if you give somebody a tablet of chalk and they think it's malaria medicine, yeah, it can cure their malaria. Yeah. Because they believe they are going to be healed. Right? So uh what my father said to me about medicine is that a person starts healing from the way you speak to them. If you as a doctor speak to them anyhow, that means, oh, you you have no value. Or you panic. If there's a patient in front of you and they can see you are panicking, yeah, their illness gets worse immediately. If the doctor is relaxed and keeps, oh, you are going to be okay, don't worry. You know what I mean? This is this is a small little problem, you know, and by next week you'll be going home. Once you tell that to the patient, they start healing, and their mind has already programmed themselves that Tally, in a week's time I'll be better. But if you say, hey, Tally, this is your sickness, you can easily kill the person. Because now you self-actualized. Fear weakens your immune system more than anything else in this world. You know, so fear, anxiety. So as a doctor, and I'll I I I'll always say there are two kinds of doctors. There are uh doctors, and then there are healers. There are healers who are not doctors, and there are doctors who are not healers. Yes. But I've been very fortunate in my life to meet many people who are doctors and healers, starting with my own father, because my the way my father will talk to you, you start getting better.

SPEAKER_02 27:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 27:37

And my father was a pediatrician, so often he was dealing with little children. And he always used to explain to us that the first person I have to treat is the mother. True. Because if the mother is panicking, the child is picking up the mother's vibrations and the child also panics.

SPEAKER_02 27:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 27:54

Right? So the child is not going to heal until the mother is calm. So if a mother brings a child to me, usually when children are sick, it's their mothers who take them to the doctors. Okay, so or if sometimes it's the father, but mostly it's the mother. So if someone brings a child to me, the first thing I have to do is reassure them that their child is not going to die.

SPEAKER_02 28:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 28:13

Right? So they calm down. And then they also allow the child to start healing. I've met many doctors who don't understand this very, very simple thing. Even the way they are talking to you.

SPEAKER_03 28:25

Ah, but you think they're sicker from here and there.

SPEAKER_05 28:30

Everybody can make mistakes. Maybe the parent has made a mistake, but now it's not the time to teach them that lesson. Let the child be better. When the child is better, then you can go back and deal with this issue.

SPEAKER_03 28:40

Do you know the time I learned that every sickness can either be created or healed by us? When I was in a chimota school, I wanted to run away and go home. You know, I wanted to go and eat some food, people. But I needed an excuse, I needed permission to go. So I decided, let me go to the hospital so I can get a chat to go home. But as I was going to the hospital, I didn't know what I was going to say to convince the doctor to give me a chat. Then I went to sit there, and Ghanaian doctors gave me my symptoms. So he asked me, Do you have a headache? I said, Yes. Yes. Are you nauseous? Yes. Are you feeling weak? Yes. That's a number of things. I said yes. Then he wrote down malaria for me, gave it to me, told me what to take, and said I should go home. So I was very excited. So I was going to go home the next day. So now that evening, when I was in the shower and like I was getting ready to sleep and everything, then my like my mate saw me. He was like, uh, Richie, are you okay? You don't look well. And I thought, hey, and now I figured it so that even as I'm there normal, it looks like I'm not well. Guess what?

SPEAKER_05 29:50

The following day, you were sick.

SPEAKER_03 29:52

I got so sick when I went home, I felt severely ill. And I thought, wait, did I give myself this sickness by actually thinking about it and making it happen? It taught me something even from that time before I actually started learning the science of placebos and everything. It taught me the fact that maybe most of these illnesses and stuff actually starts right here.

SPEAKER_05 30:16

I mean, I think that you know, our minds are far more powerful than we have been taught. Yeah. Number one. And I also think that, you know, there are certain parts of the mind that are controlled by the body. Take discipline. If you have physical discipline, you acquire mental discipline. At the same time, you can say it requires mental discipline to have physical discipline. Right? But you can teach yourself mental discipline by just saying, okay, I'm going to do 20 press-ups every morning. As soon as I wake up, 20 press-ups. So that routine tunes your mind that no matter what happens, I'm going to do these 20 press-ups. Unless I'm so sick that you know I'm physically incapable. So I think the connection between the mind and the body is very, very strong. And it must be, Tali, the mind is inside the body.

SPEAKER_02 31:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 31:17

Right? Everything that uh every input into the mind comes through the body. And every impulse that the brain creates also travels through the body. It's, I mean, when you do this to your hand, you don't have to think about it. Right? There are many, you walk, you walk without thinking. But every time you throw a step, your mind is instructing your body to take a step. So there are certain things, or not certain things, a huge amount of the communication between our mind and our body is subconscious. Because you don't have to think about walking. Babies do.

SPEAKER_02 31:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 31:53

Right? Then they have to think about how learning how to run. But once you've done it a few times, it becomes automatic. So I think habits, you know, we are our habits. We are not what we think. We are not what we do once in a while. We are what we do. Yeah, there is a whole lot of things. We are our habits. So if you want to change anything in your life, just change your habits.

SPEAKER_01 32:13

100%.

SPEAKER_05 32:14

Right? And that is where what how do you change your habits? By how you think about those things.

SPEAKER_02 32:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 32:20

Right. So I very much believe that your mind has a lot more, or your mind can do miracles, especially within your own body. Outside of your own body, your mind can also do miracles. But I have seen people who have been ill and who heal themselves with their thoughts. Yeah. Right? So, I mean, the mind is.

SPEAKER_03 32:44

I would actually say every healing we do is from the mind. But it takes you actually believing what you're doing. So because I believe my doctor knows what he's saying, and I believe the pharmacist gave me the right medicine, and I take that medicine religiously. That is why I heal. And that's the same way somebody else believes in herbile medicine. So somebody has typhoid and they believe it's the herbal typhoid medicine that will heal them, and they get healed. Somebody else has typhoid and they believe it's the antibiotics that's going to heal them and they get healed. If you swap these two, if you force both my thank you. And that that alone starts to go to show you how the mind actually works. That it's the faith that moves the mountain.

SPEAKER_05 33:31

You said something, and you do it religiously. Those were your words, right? So the thing that I envy the most in people who are religious is faith, right? I am not religious, so I have to generate my own faith.

SPEAKER_03 33:50

Why aren't you religious?

SPEAKER_05 33:52

Because uh I don't want anything to come between me and God. I know it is harder to do, right? And I made a conscious decision. I want to do it the hard way. You see, if uh if I'm a Muslim, faith is automatic. If I'm a Christian, faith is automatic. Right? And as human beings, we need faith to thrive. We cannot thrive without faith. We need to believe in believe in yourself, believe, I believe this business is going to work. So what you believe in is what manifests. So uh acquiring that belief or that faith by virtue of religion is much easier to do because that God, that Jesus, that Bible is external. And if you're a Christian, you believe it is unquestionable. Right? So here is this love that God has for me, which is unquestionable. So it is easy for me to have faith. It's easy for me to believe in it. If now I want to but the love that I have for myself, I will I will question all the time. Right? The faith that I have in somebody, whether it is my wife or my child or my business partner or an artist that I'm working with, the faith that I have in them is not constant. You know, it can be shaken by certain things. And the moment that faith is broken, boom, things fall apart.

SPEAKER_03 35:26

One of the biggest lessons I've learned in life and in business is that not everything deserves access to you. Your attention is valuable, your focus is valuable. And in this world full of noise and distraction, the ability to control your world is your true power. Lynx Reverb was designed for premium sound, complete silence, and amazing clarity. So head to any Compute Ghana shop or to our website, linkselectronics.com, down in the description, and grab yourself a headset now. Lynx Reverb, now that's clarity. I would actually argue that your route is better. And the reason I would say that is because you know, if you think about what the mind was made for, the mind was made to absorb knowledge, and you only absorb knowledge by questioning. So the mind that questions is the mind that grows. So a mind that has accepted things in blind faith is a mind that doesn't grow, but it's the easy way, but it's much easier. Easy isn't good. I mean, if we all chose the easy way, there won't be any um mature men.

SPEAKER_05 36:38

Well, I mean, I I agree with you. For me, it was a conscious decision. Yeah, it is when uh I questioned religion very early.

SPEAKER_03 36:48

How old were you when you start a question?

SPEAKER_05 36:49

Kindergarten.

SPEAKER_03 36:50

Wow, okay.

SPEAKER_05 36:52

Because of I I've said it before, because of sheep and goats. I knew goats were smarter than sheep. Why do I want to be a sheep? Okay. The other thing is that you know, by the time I was five, six at most, Operation Feed Yourself was going on. And even before Operation Feed Yourself, we had sheep, goats, rabbits, chicken in the house. So I knew how new life was created. So when they said, you know, Jesus was immaculate conception, virgin birth, then it's like I had I I knew that in order for life to come, right, there must be sex. It's God who made that law. Why would God break his or her own law? And second, the one which confused me the most is that when God wanted to create Adam, right, why didn't he create Eve and do Immaculate Conception? Right? So it's like one time when you want to create life, you create a man out of clay, and then you remove one of his ribs and then create a woman.

SPEAKER_02 37:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 37:57

The next time you want to create life, then you immaculate conception with I don't know if you've ever even considered this.

SPEAKER_03 38:05

You know, a female has the XX chromosome and a male has XY chromosome.

SPEAKER_05 38:12

Or the other way around. I don't know. I but I know yes, one is XX, one is X. I don't know which is which.

SPEAKER_03 38:17

So for a male to get the XY chromosome, only a male has Y chromosomes, and female has only X chromosomes. So for a guy to have XY chromosome, you took the Y from your father and the X from your mother to become a man, which is XY chromosome, right? So if Jesus was born by immaculate conception from Mary, he should be a woman because Mary only has X chromosomes. So if Jesus was born through immaculate conception, for him to be a man is not only a miracle that he was born from like only a woman, it's a miracle that he came out as a man as well. So that is another huge contradiction.

SPEAKER_05 39:02

The other thing which me I didn't like about Christianity, let's say, is that I felt Christianity was setting a bad example. Why? Because you take Jesus, right? The kindest, most loving human being who has ever walked the earth, what was his reward?

SPEAKER_02 39:25

Death.

SPEAKER_05 39:26

Yes. So basically, if if I believe in Jesus, then I believe if I am like Jesus, I am going to die. But that's what I actually believe that.

SPEAKER_03 39:34

That actually is the lesson because um what most Abrahamic religions teach us is the fact that your reward is in heaven. So for being good, you suffer on earth for your reward to be in heaven. That's why it's it's said, you know, for a rich man to go into heaven is like for a lamb to pass through the eye of a needle. Like anybody who is benefiting in this life is not going to benefit in the next life. So it's not a good lesson to teach. Not at all. Yeah, especially considering the fact that we don't know of any other life than this.

unknown 40:13

No.

SPEAKER_05 40:14

Me, heaven is a place on earth, right? I believe heaven is in my mind. Okay, right? So if uh I didn't fight with anybody today, if I didn't insult anybody today, if today I experience love with my children, with my friends, with my spouse, with my whatever, for me, I'm in heaven. Yes. So that is my idea of heaven. Yes. I for me, 100%. So yes, I do believe that there is heaven, and also I do believe that there is hell. Okay. Right? So hell is where you are a selfish, greedy person, and everybody is praying that you die. Because when you die, that negative energy is going to be out of my life. So if I die, and everybody whose life I touched thinks that, oh, tally, I wish Panji was here. Like Tali, today, at least somebody go buy me one beer. Or tali, like this problem where I get, you understand what I mean, tally. If I take Panji in there, they go solve, give me, right? Or at least he go do him best. Yeah. Right? So I'm in heaven. Because whenever people think of me, they think of me fondly. They wish I was here. There are also some people, whenever, oh, Charlie, thank God that asshole is dead, right? So you are in hell.

SPEAKER_02 41:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 41:37

So I believe hell and heaven exist while we are here, and they also exist while we are gone.

SPEAKER_03 41:45

Let me ask you two questions. Because I think these two questions I'm coming to ask are the reason most people choose to be religious. So I want to see your answer to the two questions. The first one is what do you believe happens when we die?

SPEAKER_05 42:02

I believe that when we die, our memory remains alive in the minds of the people who love us or who loved us when we were alive. So when we die, we become a memory. Right? No memory lasts forever. And if you look at Mexican culture, they have the same thing. The moment nobody remembers you anymore, then I believe when I die, I'm not going to heaven, I'm not going to hell, I'm not going anywhere. When I die, I'm dead and I'm gone.

SPEAKER_03 42:41

So you cease to exist and become a memory.

SPEAKER_05 42:44

Yes. So as long as you see a memory is not a physical place, but a memory is a real thing. Right? So as long as I am a memory, I am alive in someone's mind, they might miss me, but I am alive in the or you know, the the my existence remains. So I I honestly believe that, you know, I have this life to try and do everything that I want to try and do. And the older you get, the more you realize you will never do everything that you want to do. But life is a journey, it's not a destination. So if at some point in my lifetime I had managed to do everything that I wanted to do, I would have no reason to exist. Right? So I think that life is a journey. We must always have goals, we must always have desires, we must always be aspiring or seeking to do something.

SPEAKER_02 43:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 43:49

Right? So that is my existence. I know that I will not achieve everything that I set out to do, but uh if I try hard. Enough, I will get close enough to satisfy my own soul. So when I die, I will die peacefully. So for instance, uh, if I die tomorrow, I will be happy, except I will not have given my children as much time as I would like to. So, as for my friends, you know what I mean? All my friends who I've spent time with, I think they themselves know that Jali. I've given them the love that I have. Yes. But my children need more than just my love, they also need my time. Yeah, and they need my support and they need my encouragement. Because encouragement from your parents is a very, very profound driving force. You know, you can use Kanye West as an example, and Kanye West might be an extreme example, but it shows you what happens to children whose parents believe in them. Or it doesn't even have to be your parents.

SPEAKER_03 45:01

If somebody believes in you, I mean I'm I'm a typical example. My mom's belief in me is what made me so special. She told me from when I was young that she knows I'm going to be special. She like she kept hammering it in my mind. So as I was growing up, I always felt wherever I end up in life, I'm going to be special in that area. There was no time I questioned my position in life. So she made me special by telling me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 45:29

For me, there was uh a teacher I had in class, six. She was the one who made me understand myself. But so, but prior to that, my father, one day Ambulé was on TV. This around 75, 76.

SPEAKER_02 45:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 45:50

And you know, my father, it he Ambole came on after the news. My father used to watch the news. I think it was 7:30 to 8 every day. And then after 8, there was this program they were showing Ambole. He had tied that cloth around his neck. And my father didn't call any of his other children. He called me. Say, Hey Panji, I should come, I should come. And I came. He said, You see that on TV. Right? He said, if you are afraid of madness, you will never achieve your genius. Because the difference between madness and genius is so small. Yeah. Right? Most people will see genius and think it is madness. Even though in 10 or 15 years' time, they will all realize that it was genius. But initially, when people see genius, they dismiss it as madness. So that's what my father said to me at the age of seven or eight, at most nine, also made me less afraid that if I do something, somebody will say, Oh, you know, I'm not correct. Or yeah, if it makes me happy or and I'm enjoying it, or then I will continue doing it because I'm not afraid. In in whatever I'm trying to pursue, I'm not afraid that somebody will say I'm mad. And at the beginning of the hip life journey, there are many people who said, I'm mad, I'm mad, I'm mad, I'm mad, right? But what my father had told me 20 years previously gave me the I'll say determination or the ability to ignore. And at that time also Mac Tonto was the one who said to me, uh Charlie, he said, what you guys are doing is great. You know. So, and I knew that Mac Tonto knew more about music than all the people who were telling me I was wasting my time. Yeah. Rap, rap, rap, dear, empfarr. You understand what I mean? Boom chak boom chadia. You, you, you, and you're gonna for you know, and I I saw that McTonto saw what we were doing, and I remember 90, it was either 93 or 94, when Public Enemy came and performed with uh Jermaine Jackson at the Independent Square. Okay, Mactonto invited Talking Drums to perform on stage with him. He said, No, man, these guys got to know that we too we have our own yeah, and I mean Mactonto's band, they were playing, you know, they they played uh like an Osode type of rhythm for them to rap on. It's like we are not going to play hip hop, but yeah, we are going to play. So that's our version. Yes, and it's it's like when uh kind of Azonto or Afro beats first started gathering momentum, the first thing that you notice is that Americans didn't know how to rap on that beat.

SPEAKER_03 48:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 48:43

Now everybody has learned, right?

SPEAKER_03 48:46

But first we understood it because we understand the rhythm.

SPEAKER_05 48:48

Yes, we knew how to but actually, in to be very, very honest, 93, 94, 95, even 96, 97, 98, Ghanaians who had learned to rap by listening to American hip-hop, they didn't know how to rap on King King K King K Ira. Right? So the reason why I made Toto Mechanic without any rapper is because nobody knew how to rap on the song. So I just used vocal samples. You know, it's so because I I wanted somebody to rap on that kind of beat, but they didn't understand it. They didn't understand it, yes. But I knew that uh in fact, the story of Toto Mechanic is my father's bedroom was like his window, where his window was and where my studio and the house was at the time, he would be able to hear if we made it loud. So one day my father walked to my room and he said, You know, Panji, I like your music, but it doesn't move me. And he said, the function, the purpose of music is to move somebody. It must move you physically, it must move you spiritually, it must move you mentally, or any combination of the above, but music's music has to move you.

SPEAKER_02 50:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 50:09

So he said, uh I really like the music, but what is missing is movement. So if you can he said, just think about it, right? Make sure that and if you can make music that moves me mentally, physically, and spiritually, you are gone.

SPEAKER_02 50:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 50:30

So it took me about one month. I was cracking my brain, and I was thinking, what moves everybody? And the answer is sex, right?

SPEAKER_00 50:42

Physically, mentally, and spiritually. Yes. Sex.

SPEAKER_05 50:46

So I thought, okay, if I want to make a song that moves my father, I've got to translate sex into music.

SPEAKER_02 50:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 50:54

And that's what Totomechanic is. And it's Azunto, fundamentally. Azunto is the rhythm of sex, right? It's not uh jamma is the rhythm of jamma, Azunto is the rhythm of sex. And so what I thought is this is that even if if I try to keep still and somebody is having sex with me, at some point I'll start moving. I can try to keep still, uh, but at some point I'll move. Yeah. So I thought, okay, I want to make a song that sounds like somebody is making love to me. So I'll be forced to move. And that is where Totomekanic came from. Interesting. Right? Okay, it uh it's so I it's um and I thought at that time, this is 98, 99, right? No, 99. I thought, ah, king kink is too obvious. And yet, what we've come to realize is that King Kinke Kinke is not too obvious. Yeah. But if you listen to Toto Mechanic, you'll see that that is the rhythm. It's just that I put it differently. That is also what I really like about Kakalika. Yeah. Kakalika to me, the first time I had Kakalika, I was like, uh-huh, at last. Right? When I made Toto Mechanic 26 years ago, this is kind of what I was trying to do. Okay. Right? It's it's like I've seen somebody complete my vision. Right? It's this is what I was trying to do. And I got some way out of it because people have sent me messages about for the last 25 years, consistently. Somebody in Papua New Guinea is now hearing Totomechanic for the first time. Wow. Right? Somebody in Azerbaijan, somebody in you know, Vanuatu, you know. So as for Totomechanic, dear, it did a hell of a lot of what I tried to do. But when I heard Kakalika, sorry, when I had Kakalika, then I realized, okay, this is almost like this is the top of the mountain. Yeah, I'm not saying we can't go beyond.

SPEAKER_03 53:00

Taken the journey.

SPEAKER_05 53:01

Yes, but we've got there, we've we've risen to the top, and the entire world now understands. And of course, thanks to internet and social media, yeah, you know, things catch fire immediately, right? So it's when I heard Kakalika, it's like, ah, uh, you guys, dear Tali, I'm I'm grateful, right? That you have come. It's like I started a sentence and you've completed the sentence for me with exactly the words I was looking for, but I couldn't find. But it's like what I imagined in my mind, not in terms of the beat or the rhythm, but in terms of what Ghanaian music can do if you make people dance. So, me, there was never any doubt in my mind that eventually African music would replace African American music on the dance floor. So, this is something I have felt for 30 years. Remember, hip-hop wasn't really danceable music. No, when the early hip-hop came, it was dancehall that would make us dance. It was that so called the house music that we were dancing with.

SPEAKER_03 54:06

You know, I actually intentionally switched when I started my style, like when I started and we're doing the gimme blowsaw and stuff, I intentionally switched to Afrobeat. So, what I would do is those days they'll try and get me into the club to go and dance and stuff. And me, I'm I'm a studio rat. I wasn't interested in going to the club, but then when I started going to the club with them, now I started paying attention to people. So let's say a song like Gimme Blow will drop, and no no no no no the people get excited, boom, boom, and I'll see so much energy. Then in 30 seconds, one minute, they don't know what to do with their bodies now. Then the next song will come, then they'll get very excited. So the song had like the songs had a burst of energy in the beginning, and then they don't know what to do with their bodies next. And then I started noticing other songs that had a chat, chat, chat, chat, and I realized that okay, so with those songs, they may not have that same burst of energy as the hip hop gave them, but they were consistently dancing, they were consistently moving. Thank you. So I said, No, I I I still want to be able to create music that can cross over, but I wanted to have our rhythm so that people can move throughout. So that's when I started doing songs like Simple, I think Ali Camp, then started speeding it up. The reason I actually even started speeding it up was I was trying to get pop music to work in Ghana and Ghanaian music to match pop music. So I intentionally combined pop with reggaeton. So most people don't know this, but I actually intentionally started that trend because pop music had the constant forkick, so it's boom, boom, phon, boom, phon, boom. It's a constant thing, you know. Um you're so beautiful, it's going like that. And then reggaeton was so what I did, I started chik chikk chip so that now you could transition from pop into African music without noticing it. So I remember when we did things like what the 2010, when we were on that World Cup album, yeah, we were asked to do a song from Africa. I intentionally did that style, so it started with pop, which then switched to so it started that Afro beach trend. So most people don't know that the Afro beach trend came from combining pop with reggaeton so that both parts of the world could understand it easily. But that was just that was by the way, I digress.

SPEAKER_05 56:44

No, I mean I I I think that you know it's Ghanaian producers deserve much, much more credit, right, for steering African music in this direction. Yeah, right? Because what we did in the early 90s is that we try to give our music, you know, by the late 80s, early 90s, hip-hop and dance hall was everywhere. Yeah. And if you went to a club, you wouldn't hear Ghanaian music anymore. Right? And I wanted to hear Ghanaian music in the club, right? So how do we do that? And uh it's got to sound like Ghanaian music, the same way like Dadilumba or Nana Champong sounds Ghanaian or Kojuinki, right? So how do we how do we make music that belongs on the dance floor? Because the pride of every young person is tied up into music and culture. Right? So if we don't have an indigenous culture of our own, then by the time we have been through our peer pressure years, we won't have much of an identity left because we'll have adopted other identities. You know, I sp I spent quite a few years working as a journalist. So I understood the dynamic of how and why human beings go in certain directions. So in the late 80s in England, every rapper was rapping with an American accent. It's like today, drill artists in Australia are trying to rap with a London accent.

SPEAKER_02 58:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 58:36

Right? So it's but that that happened in America, though that happened in England in the 80s. But the moment rap British rappers started rapping with the British accent, everybody suddenly, everybody was interested in hip-hop.

SPEAKER_02 58:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 58:54

So all the people who were not interested in hip-hop because they didn't relate to it, it was American, suddenly related to hip-hop as soon as the accent became English. Now you see yourself in the music. So for me, music is something you have to see yourself inside.

SPEAKER_03 59:09

It needs to fit the culture.

SPEAKER_05 59:11

Yes. That is Jamaicans are proud wherever they go because they they have one of the most dominant forms of music in the world. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 59:22

With music.

SPEAKER_05 59:23

Nigerians, too, they are proud wherever they go. We don't know the reason. Maybe there's no good reason. But we love them for it, right? Nigeria knows they carry last, right?

SPEAKER_03 59:33

But except there's a World Cup.

SPEAKER_05 59:36

Don't worry, Nigeria will play for you. And if we go out, Morocco will play for Obama. No, you see, this is one thing about Africa that you know, politicians and you know, recently Bill Gates said Africa will never unite. What a stupid man. The reality is this Africa has been united for most of my life. When you say I'm watching an African movie, what are you watching? You're watching a Nigerian film.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:04

Right? It doesn't matter if Morocco is in the World Cup, every African, not only in Africa, in the diaspora, will support Morocco. When it is Ghana, everybody will support Ghana. When it is Nigeria, every African will support Nigeria, right? When it is South Africa, every African except South Africa, we will support the right. So South Africa has, but you know, every time you go to South Africa, people will tell you, I'm going to Africa, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:00:30

You know, the funny thing is, South Africa is actually one of my favorite places in the world.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:33

Same here. I love South Africa, but I have always been confused by South Africans telling me they are going to Africa. So South Africans have never thought they were in Africa. True. Right? This is all part of their apartheid, all that bullshit. But black South Africans have told me I've never been to Africa before.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:51

Yeah. They've been made to feel they are separate.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:53

They are separate, yes. And that is the cause of all this, yeah. Right? Even though, you know, it's look, when the war happened in Liberia, at that time the population of Ghana was around 12, 13, 15 million at most. How many Liberians came to Ghana? Over a million. That's like 10% of the population. And we absorbed them. We welcomed them, yeah. Yes. No pressure, nothing. It didn't disturb our country, it didn't disturb anything. There is no European country that can accept even 1% of their population, or 2% of their population without causing problems.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:34

I mean, London has accepted like 10% of Nigerians, but that's a different thing. So, you know, Africa. You know, Nigerians are the Chinese of Africa. You know the way every country, when you go, there's a Chinatown. Right now, every country when you go, there's a Niger town.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:50

And every village in Ghana you go to, there is an Igbo business. Yeah. You know, they study the Igbo business model in business schools. Because the Igbo business model is one of the most successful in the world. Right? Even me, some of my relatives disagree with me, but our family name, Amadi, Amadi doesn't mean anything in she, so it's not a tree name. It's Amadi from and it's an Igbo name.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:19

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:20

So that means five, six, seven generations ago, some Igbo businessmen came to Ghana. Typical in Africa, if you go somewhere, Charlie, you stay, you marry before you say a waka. Yeah. You know, so it's like this pollination has been happening for centuries. Yeah. But what I love about the Igbo business model is they pool their money together and then they go and buy Abu Boyah. So one person will go to the factory in India or in China and order one million Abu Boyas. What price do you think they are going to give them?

SPEAKER_03 1:02:57

I mean, a very good price.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:58

A very good price. And then he will bring those. So only one person has to go and visit the factory. Ghanaians, we always work apart.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:06

So one Ghanaian will go and buy 500 from Dubai, another Ghanaian will go and buy 500 from India. Yeah. Another Ghanaian will go and buy 500 from China. How can you compete with the Igbo businessmen who've pulled all their money to go and buy 1 million prep? And then your shipping is cheaper. Your movement is easier because you say, oh, Charlie, let's send them all to Togo Abene Republic, Freeport. And then from there, whether it's smuggling or legitimate, we don't know. But right? So they will get to the market at two-thirds of your price. They will sell below your wholesale price, and they are making money.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:43

Because working together is working. Working together is working.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:47

It's like competition. I think Ghana, our biggest problem is we are always in competition with each other. Is there are times when if we come together, one plus one is seven, one plus one is eleven, one plus one is thirteen. You know, when I was a child, this is also one of the things that made me uh dubious about religion, right? Because I I every time I spoke to a Trotro driver, one plus one is equal to three. They were critical not only of our educational system, they were critical of religion, they were critical of everything. And it's like I always wondered why is it so important because whatever whatever a Trotro driver writes on his Trotro is the most important statement in the world to him. Right? This is your one chance to make a statement to the world.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:36

And that is what you chose. And that is what you chose, yes.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:39

And you've chosen one plus one is equal to three, one plus one is equal to eight. Yeah. One plus one is equal to thirteen. These are the three in particular that I remember. I never remember seeing one plus one is equal to five, but three, eight, thirteen, and one plus one is equal to eleven.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:53

That one, two. So it's like, what is the philosophy in this person's mind? What is he trying to teach me? Because when somebody writes something on their Trotro, they are trying to share a lesson that they consider to be very important. So I it's like for a lot of my life, I was I I wanted to understand because I know Trotro drivers are more exposed than the average human being. Just like taxi drivers or Uber drivers, they have more conversations with more people. And and barbers. And barbers, yes. Because when you're in a barber's church.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:23

You spill it all. Yes. Today I said something in front of my barber. I realized I shouldn't have said this.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:31

It's me in my teens and in my twenties, I used to cut hair a lot. Okay. I think what it is is when somebody is cutting your hair, you know that they can mess you up. So you feel very vulnerable. Yeah. So in that moment of vulnerability, you are it's easy to say anything because you feel in a vulnerable state. So when you are in a barber's chair, is men are their most vulnerable, I think. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:56

You know, you know those days that the mafia bosses, the person they trust. Most in the world is their barber.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:01

Yeah, because you can slit your throat at any time.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:03

Anytime. So it's that's the best assassin to hire.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:08

So I mean, I think human beings, we are, you know, we have an innate and intense desire to communicate. It's just human nature. You we want to communicate. And it's one of the things that I think Ghana does exceptionally well. Look, I can walk out of here, and before I get to the junction, I can spend one hour getting from here to the junction. Everybody I stop, I'll just start talking to them about something. And in Ghana, you can start talking to somebody, and you can talk about really, really deep, deep and painful or you know, sincere subjects. And almost everybody is willing to have that conversation with you. In many countries I've been to in the world, you can't even start to have those conversations with your good friends because you haven't reached that level yet. In Ghana, I can have that conversation with a mate in a trotro. I can have that conversation with somebody selling grounds by the side of the game. You can go into some deep conversation. And you see that the two of you stood there and you talk for one hour. Yeah. And because you are talking, this person will actually ignore the work that they are doing.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:15

Because in Komoniyomode, right? So I think Ghana is one country where, and also there are many other African countries like that. I also think parts of the Far East are like that, right? But Japan is not necessarily like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:31

Japan, there are, even though their culture is very uh respectful of other individuals, right? They don't have that instinctively. You can't just start. In Ghana, I can start talking to somebody, and we can have any, it's like the conversation can go anywhere.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:53

Anywhere.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:54

And every conversation is welcome. It's not that there are some taboo subjects or I don't know you well enough to have this conversation. In Ghana, we don't respect that rule. Yeah. And I find it to be a very, very, very beautiful thing. So that if you have a problem and you can't even discuss that problem with somebody who, because you you can discuss that problem with anybody.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:16

Yeah, you can discuss with a stranger. You see two strangers and they're talking about their marijuana. You think they are friends.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:21

Oh, Tia Nyeshayo, so that is a truly beautiful thing about Ghana. Is if you are somewhere and there are people around you, you enter a conversation with them just to pass the time, and the conversation can be about anything. So, uh how did we get there? It's it is the evolution of society that got us there. You know, it's not that it's primitive, no, it is concerted, it's very advanced. It's it's look at it.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:55

It's funny that they make it seem like community and society is rather primitive.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:00

No, it's the most advanced thing that human beings can develop is community and society.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:06

And now we've built technology which replaces that, which is social media.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:11

Well, you see, uh, why is social media so powerful? And it's because it uh gives you a sense of community. Right? So social media is uh even more of a crutch, I would say, in societies where there is very little human interaction.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:35

So in the absence of human interaction, social media is a great thing. I mean, I think social media is a great thing anyway. It's just that what happens to me, for instance, is that if I engage with someone on social media regularly, my desire to see them in real life, in real life, yes. It's like I have satisfied some of that hunger.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:00

And in my case, even if I I can think about someone, and I can think about them so intensely, it's like I've seen them.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:07

True.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:08

Right? So it's the older I get, the more I'm learning that if I think about someone that intensely, I have to contact them.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:17

I mean, I know people who told me that since I started masterminds, now they feel like they see me every day. So it doesn't, you know, like whereas at first they would miss me a lot. Now every day they see me talking about something and they feel they are communicating with me. So it's satisfied that urge, like you're saying. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:34

So I think that that is the danger. But I do think that human beings have an urge, like you said. We have an urge to connect.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:45

And if we don't nurture that urge, we become unhealthy, right? And uh in Ghana, we are blessed that the environment around us nurtures that urge. If I stop to buy Amada, it's if it's somewhere where I've bought Amada before. If the last time I bought Amada there, me and that woman had some conversation. When I go there, oh mehumwache.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:15

Right? Because she'll remember that I've come before. If we don't have any conversation, she might not remember me. But you know, human beings, when you hear a voice, it helps familiarity. Yeah. Me, for instance, I can see somebody that I know. I know exactly who they are. I will not remember their name until they say something. As soon as they say one word, then their name just comes into my head. I don't know why that happens. It's like a trigger. Yeah. As soon as I hear your voice, and in the days before a mobile phone, if somebody called me and I pick up the phone, the person will say hello, and I'll say, Oh, Richie, how be? Yeah, how do you know it's me? Because for me, I I don't know what it is, but I recognize, I could recognize every single person who called me just by one word on the phone. Hello.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:02

Yeah, I think the voice has some identity. It's very strong. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:06

So when you communicate with somebody, they remember you. So in Ghana, I go and buy a madana, maybe if I'm waiting three, five minutes until these ones are completely ready.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:17

In that time, you don't stand there in silence, you just talk about whatever is on your mind. She too she'll talk about whatever is on her mind, right? Mo Bonko. There's no, it's not that, oh, it's we are not talking about the weather, we are not talking, we are talking about something that is meaningful.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:32

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:33

So I really appreciate that about Ghana. And I think it is something that Ghanaians and many other Africans must have spent a lot of time, thought, energy to develop.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:47

Let me let me come back to the second question I had. Second question. The second question I had, another reason why most people turn to religion, is where does this all come from? As in, where does the universe come from? So let me let me the rationale that most people have is that for there to be a creation, there must be a creator, and that leads to the search for who is the creator, which brings in religion. So where do you think all this comes from?

SPEAKER_05 1:13:19

Okay, for me, that argument is so is exactly the opposite, is so nonsensical. Okay. You are saying in order for there to be creation, there must be a creator, right? So who created the creator? It's creation that you know what I believe, right? My personal belief is the fact that every culture's God resembles them.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:47

Except Africa.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:48

Well, it used to, it doesn't anymore. Yeah, right? But in every culture's God resembles the people. So I believe we created God. God did not create us.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:59

So we created God in our image.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:01

We created God in our image, yes. That's the only explanation for every religion having deities that resemble them. And you say God created us in his image. No, we created God in our image. And for me, also that is a problem. For me, the concept of God is so big and so powerful and so all-encompassing that you cannot represent that God in a weak human being. So if you say to me, Jesus was unable to encompass God, then I'll say you don't, you haven't got a clue of what God is. Because no human being can encompass the power and the glory and the love and the magic that is God. So I am the reason why I reject religion is because I do not believe God can be represented by a human being like me or a human being like you. I believe we are all, we must all aspire to be God like. Me, that is my question life.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:10

So then what is God?

SPEAKER_05 1:15:13

God is love.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:16

See, if I love you, medium, no. No. Will I kill you? No. Will I steal from you? No. So where there is love, the Ten Commandments are automatic. So God is love.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:30

I was actually going to ask you that. I was going to ask you one problem that most people have is without religion, where do you base your morality?

SPEAKER_05 1:15:40

No. Morality exists in all, not only in human beings. Morality exists in every creature on this in this universe that we know. Lions don't kill for fun, they only kill to eat. That is morality.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:58

Right? So a child knows what is right and wrong. See, now I'm 59 years old. If I decide I'm going to go and slap that guy, on my way to going to try to slap him, something in me will tell me, stop, what you are doing is wrong. What I will do is I will overcome my inner voice and slap him nonetheless. That is why religion says we have a choice, right? But if you have ever tried to kill somebody, you will feel that thing before you kill that person. Ask anybody who is a killer. They will tell you you can kill a million people, that feeling never goes away.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:44

That before you do something wrong, there is a voice, it's not even a voice, it's a feeling, right? There's a feeling inside you that this is not good, right? So I think that morality is ingrained into every living thing. So that because even dogs, cats, horses, lions, bears, there are aggressive animals, like there are lions who have taken a baby sheep or a baby goat, which who they find wandering around helplessly, and protected them and nurtured them. So there is compassion in all life forms. So we already know what is right and what is wrong.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:24

It's like it is inherent in every human being, in every living creature. Every time I try to do something bad, I get the same feeling. I can do that bad thing a million times. That feeling will still be there. I then I just then choose to override it. I choose to ignore it. So religion has nothing to do with morality. In fact, it is precisely the opposite. Religion destroys the morality inherent in man. Because I can kill you in the name of God.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:54

I mean, there have been holy wars.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:56

Yes. I can enslave you because you do not belong to my religion.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:01

Yeah. Just like how slavery was permitted because who sanctions slavery is the church.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:08

Right? That's why Ethiopia wasn't um colonized. Yes. Because they were already Christians. So the church didn't have the permission to colonize them.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:19

So it's me, if I look at religion, what has been the greatest force for evil for mankind? It's been religion. The longest wars are the religious wars. Right? The most horrific things ever done in human history were done in the name of God. Right?

SPEAKER_03 1:18:42

So let's Does God know these things are being done in his name? Well, somebody said God told them to, so even the Amalekites, God told them to. How much more as Africans?

SPEAKER_05 1:18:56

Me, it's I like this. Yes, it's your fault. Yes. I believe that 100%. If I do anything, I'm not going to use religion to justify it. I'm not going to use God to justify it. It's a choice and a decision that I made. It's something that I believe in. Which is why I said faith is so, so, so important, right? It's very difficult to master faith and belief from nothing. And if you if you choose to stay away from religion, then that becomes your greatest task. How do I generate the same level of faith that a blind, when they say blind faith, right? How do I develop the level of closed eyes that a blind man has? Because my eyes are open.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:49

Right? So for me, that is the hardest thing. So, and yet I honestly do believe that humanity is ready for that challenge. Right? It's, and I think we've always been ready, right? Because uh if we all believe that we communally constitute God, right? Then there are some things I cannot do to you because you are a part of God. I'm a part of God, He's a part of God, she's a part of God. So I think that making religion some third-party thing. Jesus Christ came and died for our sins. So whatever I do, I'm forgiven. So you ask me, you ask me about morality. Yes. Forgiveness does not encourage morality, especially if God has forgiven you in advance because we killed his son. What kind of logic is that? And also the thing that if you are good, you will die, right? It is it's it's a message that is repeated again and again and again and again in the Bible.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:00

So you are persecuted.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:02

Yes, you are persecuted because you are good, right? So what does it do? It encourages you not to be good because you don't want to be persecuted. And and and imagine the narrative that, okay, God sent his son to the earth, right? And then halfway through doing halfway through God doing his own work because Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and God are one. Yeah. So God decided, God sent himself, and then God got human beings to kill him so that he can forgive. Forgive himself. No, so he can forgive them, not himself.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:37

Yeah, truthfully. Can forgive them for killing him. Yes. But he can forgive them from a rule that he made on his own.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:46

And here's this I'm a father, right? If a lion comes into my house, will I go and lock the lion in my children's bedroom?

SPEAKER_03 1:21:56

I mean, if you want to get rid of your children.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:00

So, why did God banish Lucifer down to earth?

SPEAKER_01 1:22:04

Good point.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:05

Right? That means you you you are saying Lucifer is too much for you, you can't deal with Lucifer or Satan or whatever it is. But we human beings with our weaknesses and we should handle him. We should handle him, yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:19

And then if we are not able to handle him, then we will go and stay with him forever.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:23

Forever. Where? Where is that place in hell?

SPEAKER_03 1:22:26

But he Satan can go to heaven anytime that he wants, because he hangs out with God all the time. Like as you see in Job, he and God sit down and have a conversation. They are chatting, they are sharing the human beings. Yes, they're sharing the human beings. So he who did the biggest wrong still has full access to God. But if we for pray to him, then we don't.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:46

And since Christianity is about forgiveness, right? Why doesn't God forgive?

SPEAKER_03 1:22:54

Good question. So I mean, God didn't forgive Adam and Eve. He did or he didn't? He didn't forgive Adam and Eve for eating a fruit. So okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:05

Do you do you know what have you ever looked? Google on Google on your thing, Google a sperm, a human sperm. Right? An image of a human sperm.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:19

Doesn't it look like a snake with an apple in its mouth? It does. So the Bible was written by ignorant people who didn't know what a sperm was. Right? So, the story of creation, the snake with an apple in its mouth, is the sperm that created humanity.