Lori's Story

Hello, I’m Stacy, the host of Mothers, Lies and DNA Surprises Podcast. Thank you for being here.  

I would like to share a possible trigger warning, Lori will talk about childhood abuse and briefly mentions suicidal thoughts. If you or anyone you know is struggling please reach out to 988 via text or phone for help!

Today I am honored to share Lori’s story, as a Late Discovery Donor Conceived Person, she will share how, from a very early age she was looking for that genetic mirroring, recognizing that she didn’t look like anyone in her family, even asking if she was adopted.  Children don’t realize what is missing necessarily, however we do notice and pick up on differences very early on. 

When Lori suggested to her parents that maybe her Dad was adopted, they both went along with that….versus using that opportunity to be honest, share the truth before finding out from strangers. They had so many opportunities to tell the truth yet they refused to. 

As a child Lori learned to be invisible, her mother wasn’t loving or affectionate.  Lori felt that her mother wanted to have children but didn’t want to be a “mom”. She never received what she needed.

Lori is very open about her tough childhood and the relationships she has with her parents as well as her brother.  She also share the positives she has found in this discovery!

Thank you for being vulnerable and sharing your story Lori!

Hiraeth Hope & Healing retreats:

https://www.hiraethhopeandhealing.com/retreats

Here are the links to hear Lori’s other podcast interviews:

The Inconceivably Connect Podcast:  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/episode-6-the-power-of-denial-and-dna/id1813869123?i=1000713065302

NPE Stories with Lily Wood:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/loris-story/id1464478802?i=1000726533855

 Everything’s Relative with Eve Sturgis:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/lori-biology-101-brown-eyes-and-big-feet/id1459167540?i=1000439769354

If you would like to connect with Lori’s personally you can find her on Instagram at @ journe2me or on Facebook @Lori Tirado. Her professional pages are :  Instagram @longislandtastees or Facebook @longislandtastees.

Lori’s “Hugs” that she shares at retreats for everyone to keep with them!

Music is "Drown in your Lies" by NoxAwake via Pixabay  

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:01

Don't be quiet, Mother. You just don't want to accept the truth. The truth. You've been lying to me alone. Why is the love you gave me just a lie?

SPEAKER_00 0:19

Hello, I'm Stacy, the host of Mother's Lies and DNA Surprises podcast. Thank you for being here. Before I start, I would like to share a possible trigger warning. Lori will talk about childhood abuse and briefly mention suicidal thoughts. If you or anyone you know is struggling, please reach out to 988 via text or phone for help. Today I am honored to share Lori's story. She is a late discovery, donor-conceived person, and she will share how from a very early age she was looking for that genetic mirroring, recognizing that she didn't look like anyone in her family, even asking if she was adopted. Children don't realize what is missing necessarily. However, we do notice and pick up on differences very early on. When Lori suggested to her parents that maybe her dad was adopted, they both went along with it, versus using that opportunity to be honest, share the truth before finding out from strangers. They had so many opportunities to tell the truth, yet they refused. As a child, Lori learned to be invisible. Her mother wasn't loving or affectionate. Lori felt that her mother wanted to have children, but didn't want to be a mom. She never received what she needed. Lori is very open about her tough childhood and the relationship she has with her parents as well as her brother. She also shares the positives she has found in this discovery. Thank you for being vulnerable and sharing your story, Lori. Well, I want to welcome Lori to the show. I'm excited to talk to Lori. Lori and I have spent a lot of time together at the last two Jersey retreats. And I'm honored to have her here today and share her story. It's a little different than what we've had. And I'm excited to share the donor-conceived journey and your relationship with your mother. So welcome, Lori.

SPEAKER_02 2:26

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 2:27

I'm happy to be here. So tell me a quick summary about your DNA surprise, how you found out and what it's been like since you've learned your truth. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:40

So I'm just gonna go through my childhood briefly. I was raised with a mom, a dad, and an older brother who is about four years older than me. Always, always felt like an outcast within my family. I had super duper like blonde, blonde, blonde hair, almost white, light skin, light eyes. And my family members all did not look like me. They had dark hair and darker features. And so I always kind of knew something was off. I used to question if I was adopted. And my mom told me no. But of course, at you know, and I was young, I was like four, five, six years old, and I didn't know what donor conception was. I didn't even know how babies were made yet. So I I yeah, so I would question it and I was always told no. But one of my biggest things was always like my nose because I felt like my nose was such a prominent feature on my face, and I couldn't find anyone that it belonged to. And it used to really drive me crazy. And I would ask my mom, like, oh, where's my nose from? And she would always say, It's the great Nordic nose from your father's side of the family. So whatever.

SPEAKER_00 3:49

Yeah. Well, I find it interesting as you were saying that when you asked your mom if you were adopted, she wasn't lying. So she wasn't, she wasn't lying, and I'm sure that gave her comfort. Like she was telling the truth to that question.

SPEAKER_02 4:05

To that question, yeah. I mean, you would have think it, you would have thought it would prompt her maybe to think, hey, maybe I should like let her know though, but it never did.

SPEAKER_00 4:15

No, okay, sorry to interrupt.

SPEAKER_02 4:17

No, that's okay. So, yeah, so I was told it was the great Nordic nose from my father's side of the family. I didn't believe it. I looked at pictures, I would look at my father, and I was like, there's no way it's the same nose, but okay, whatever. You know, my mom says I'm not adopted, so I guess I just have to believe it. I was raised very strongly in the Scandinavian culture, though. My dad was is Norwegian, and then there's always been like a little question if there was any Swedish, and my mom is Irish and Scottish, and every I don't know anything about really the Irish-Scottish side, but the Norwegian influence was heavy within our home and everything. So as I grew up, it was 2018, and so I was in like my, I think I was like 36 at that point, and I was kind of going through some stuff personally, so I decided I needed a distraction. A friend had posted her 23andMe results on her Facebook page, and I was like, that is really cool. You know what? This is a great way to find out if we are any Swedish or if it's truly just Norwegian on that side. So didn't really put any thought into it, you know, ordered the test, sent it off, and then I got my results on October 22nd of 2018. And when I opened it up, like I got that email, you know, and you open it up and that colored wheel shows up. And I was like, well, it should only be three, maybe four colors, right? But there was like a rainbow of colors, so I was like, well, that's interesting. Most excited to learn I was Jewish, and I used that opportunity to tell every Jewish person I know that I am part of their tribe officially now. But I also called my parents and on the phone, you know, I was really excited, and I didn't really think much about like what that means, you know. My thought was that my dad really didn't know his background.

SPEAKER_00 6:32

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 6:32

And my other thought was, oh my God, did I just uncover that he was the NPE or like an adopted person? Like I had no idea.

SPEAKER_00 6:41

So I call them. Did you even before you called them, did you even realize there were matches or had you looked at matches and there was nothing that stuck out? Okay.

SPEAKER_02 6:51

I had no idea that you matched with relatives on 23andB, which like looking back on that, I'm like, how didn't you know that? Because it's like it's all over.

SPEAKER_00 7:01

Yeah. And you hear I hear it. I was just listening to a podcast yesterday, and you we everybody's it's so many people think say that. They're like, I had didn't even think that I'd match within or that there were were DNA matches that you could look into, that they just looked at, like you said, the nationality and and the and the interest in learning more about our heritage. So yeah, okay. Continue on.

SPEAKER_02 7:31

I'm glad I'm not alone with that then, because I thought I thought that was like a me thing.

SPEAKER_00 7:36

No, uh not at all.

SPEAKER_02 7:38

Yeah, so I I called my parents and I was all excited on the phone, and I'm like, guess what? We're Jewish and we're Cuban and we're this, and dad, you know, you're not just Norwegian, you're not just Scandinavian, and I'm going on and on. And their reaction was very bizarre. I even at one point said, Dad, maybe you were adopted. His he had a sister that was like 11, 12 years older than him, and she always used to say he was adopted, but we always thought it was, you know, like big sister picking on little brother. Right. And so we just like brushed it off. But now with these results, I thought, oh my God, she was telling the truth the whole time. And she had passed by that point, so it's not like we could have asked her, right? But so I shared that theory with my parents, and my dad said, Yeah, maybe you're right. I know, and my mom got mad. My mom, her reaction was so strange, it was like she was angry, and they're like, We don't believe in this stuff, this isn't true, there's no way this could be possible, whatever. And their reaction really threw me because again, I was super excited, and they were like, not at all. So I sent a picture to my paternal cousins of my results, and I was like, Look, guys, we're not just Scandinavian, check this out. And then this is when this is the moment when I learned that you're supposed to connect with family. And my cousin, I didn't even know that she had done 23andMe, but she was like, wait, we're not connecting, like, let me, you know, let me try to connect with you. And like, we weren't at all related. But again, I still had in my head that my dad was probably adopted, so that would make sense that we wouldn't be connected, right? So that was like the initial discovery, but I still had no clue like what the whole story was gonna play out. I thought my dad was adopted, and that was that, and always felt kind of weird that my mom responded the way that she did. But I kind of just brushed it off because that's sort of my mom anyway. She can be a challenging person. So yeah, so I just brushed it off as whatever, you know. And then it wasn't until December of 2018 when I got a message on 23andMe, and I looked at it, and it was someone that said, 23andMe says we're sisters. And I just was like, Well, first I was excited because I've always wanted a sister, but then I was trying to figure out how that was at all possible because so she also was born near me. So we initially thought her dad and my mom had an affair, right? And the idea of that is so crazy because my mom loves to portray this like picture perfect, everything is perfection, beautiful, the best, you know. And so I couldn't even believe it. So I was like, you know what, though? I don't want to approach her. Well, now, and then I thought I understand why she was angry now because like she had an affair and got pregnant with me, and that's why she didn't want me to find out. And my poor father, you know, I go through this whole thing. So I was like, all right, I'm gonna approach her separately, but I'm gonna do an ancestry test also, just for like further confirmation. So there was even more proof. So I do ancestry. My newfound sister decided to do it also, and lo and behold, there were more siblings and more relatives on Ancestry. And so that was when the ball started rolling. My newest sister, so my next new sister, she knew she was donor-conceived from childhood. And so she just took the ball based on connections that we all had from the two different tests and was able to figure it out. So that's how I learned I was donor-conceived from these strangers that were my siblings.

SPEAKER_00 11:51

I can I I can't imagine. So from the time you first reached out to your parents and were excited about this rainbow of colors and nationality and thinking it was your dad who was adopted to you figuring it out, like figuring it out that it wasn't your mom who had an affair, that you were actually donor-conceived. How much time was between that conversation and you learning the truth?

SPEAKER_02 12:24

So, yeah, I got my results from 23 in October, and then I want to say it was probably early spring, because I unfortunately by the time I did Ancestry, it was right after the Christmas rush. So I had to wait so long to get those results. But I want to say it was probably about March of 2019.

SPEAKER_00 12:42

And there were no conversations in the meantime to get any floors me because the first thing I thought of when you reached out to your parents and your your dad played along and your mom was upset, they had so many opportunities to tell the truth.

SPEAKER_02 13:04

I mean, looking back through my life, and I play this over in my head so many times, there have been so many opportunities where they could have told me the truth or even admitted it. You know, like even after I figured out the truth, yeah, they you'll hear in my story, but there was still lying going on. So it was like just come clean, you know?

SPEAKER_00 13:25

Yeah. What wow? Wow. Yep. Okay. So you get the results, or you you piece this together with the help of some half sisters. Yeah. And then in the early spring of 2019, and how long before you have that conversation with your mother? Or by that point, did you realize you needed to have the conversation with both, or were you still gonna approach your separately, like you had mentioned?

SPEAKER_02 13:57

Yeah, so I still wanted to approach my mom separately because my thought was also like, what if you know, she couldn't get pregnant with my dad? And so she went and used a donor behind his back. Like I was like, she just really wanted a baby, and so she did this. So I was still planning on approaching just her. The other side of it is like, as much as I felt like an outcast in my family growing up, if there was one person I connected with, it was my dad. And so knowing that he wasn't my biological dad was very, very traumatic for me. Like it broke my heart. And don't get me wrong, like he was not a perfect parent by any stretch of the imagination. But any type of, you know, comfort that I got was from him. I didn't get that from my my mother. So he was the one that like brushed my hair at night before bed and you know, things like that. That and I remember him like scratching my back and things like that. My mother never did stuff like that. So I approached just her. I showed up at her doorstep one day in April of 2019 and I rang the doorbell. And they only live maybe like 15 minutes from me. So, even to this day, like we live very close to each other. And so I just showed up. I knew my dad wouldn't be home, and she opened the door and was surprised. And I was a mess because I didn't understand so much of my entire existence at this point. And I was like, Why, like, what happened here? Like, I had so many questions, I was so anxious, I was a nervous wreck. I showed up at her doorstep already crying. She lets me in the house. I'm sitting like across from her in her living room. And the first thing I said to her was, Mom, I need to understand why my DNA doesn't make sense. And her response was, I don't know. I don't know. And I'm like, okay. So I told her I did the second test and it came back with the same results. However, I have a whole bunch of half siblings, and some of those half siblings, you know, knew they were donor-conceived from like a young age. And so they did some research, and it turns out that I also was. So did you go to, and I had the doctor's name of where the my siblings' parents had gone. So I was like, so I asked her, Did you go to this doctor? And she was like, I, you know, we did have trouble, but I was told that they were just using your father's sperm. So now I know my dad knows too, because he was apparently present for this. So I was like, Well, mom, like, you never consented to like a donor. And she's like, No, I had no idea. I can't believe I carried another man's baby. Do you think your dad did this to me behind my back somehow? Oh my God. It was and I'm just sitting there and I'm like, I don't believe her, you know, but she was so like strong in her conviction of like, I had nothing to do with this. So I said to her, I was like, Well, mom, if you didn't, and listen, like the fertility industry, there is a lot of fraud that goes on. So it's not so far-fetched, you know, like it would have it could have been a possibility. So I said to her, Well, mom, if you didn't agree to this or know about this, consent to this, whatever, then we got a bigger issue here. This is like a lawsuit, you know? And she was just like, I, you know, no, I I knew nothing about this. And you know, the idea that she was gonna throw my dad under the bus, like maybe he did this behind my back, like she just was reaching, like grasping at any straws she could to try to, you know, get the attention off of her, but still couldn't believe it, knew nothing about it, and just was in total shock about the whole thing.

SPEAKER_00 17:58

Which that had to send your mind just reeling even more, because you're upset already questioning her, and then she sends it on a whole different direction that I'm sure you weren't even imagining going into it. No, I wasn't.

SPEAKER_02 18:14

And like I couldn't imagine that like your mother would lie to you about something so huge, you know? Like, it's not like where you went to dinner last night. I mean, like, I just I couldn't it it just didn't fit into my head that my mother would lie about this because why would you lie about this? Like at that point, I'm like probably 37 years old, and like I I know how babies are made, I I understand all of this. Like what I have a child of my own at that point. Like, what is going? Like, why is this such a secret? I didn't understand it. It but I knew I knew her response and everything seemed off. So even though she was telling me she didn't believe, you know, that she didn't do this and she knew nothing about it and whatever, I still like didn't fully believe her. And so after that, I actually got the phone number for the doctor's office for where this was done. And you know, listen, I was born in the early 80s, so like that doctor's very, very old at this point. He wasn't still practicing, but I figured if I could call the office, maybe I could get somebody on the phone. And I called the office and I asked to speak to like the person who had worked there the longest. And you know, I first I wanted to get my medical records or my mom's medical records, but they were destroyed many, many years ago. Um in a fire, maybe? Uh yeah, who knows?

SPEAKER_00 19:44

We hear about that.

SPEAKER_02 19:45

Yep. They they probably just shredded them. I mean, yes, yeah, who knows? But anyway, so I um yeah, I I asked, like, what was the consenting process like? And you know, I mean, obviously, they're never gonna say, like, oh, we were very unethical, we did not get consent. But every uh all my siblings' parents were saying that they had known about this. So, like, it felt like this was one of the ethical fertility doctors. It wasn't one of the guys that you know wasn't doing things the right way. So I had to imagine that uh most likely uh they had signed consent for this, although my mother swore no, absolutely not. Right. And uh it was just like, I mean, the years now at this point, everything blurs, and I don't know what came first, second, and third. But over the course of those next few years, I approached her alone quite a few times because I just wanted her to come clean. And I think I was still scared to go to my dad because I wasn't a hundred percent sure if he knew or if she was lying about that. And I still was not ready to tell him, like, you're not my biological father. So around in late 2019, my husband and I were having some difficulty getting pregnant, and I started going to a fertility doctor. And this is like another one of those examples where, like, wow, what a great time to connect with your daughter and share stories, you know. And that did not happen. I didn't have to use a donor, but you know, I was going through the struggles of trying to get pregnant and and not being successful. We could have related on that, but nope. So, anyway, so eventually I got pregnant right before the pandemic. So early 2020. I mean, I think I found out in like February, but I, you know, it was very early. And then I obviously didn't tell anybody for a little while. And so once I found out. Out, I was pregnant, the world was shutting down, there was so much stress going on. I was really anxious about the pregnancy because I had done gone through so much to have it, and I just wanted to make sure that I didn't do anything to jeopardize the health of the baby or myself. So I made the decision that I was not, I was gonna put this DNA stuff on the back burner because I needed to focus on my pregnancy, getting through a pandemic and like all this stuff. So I called my mom because I can say this now, knowing what it is, but like secrets like harm you, right? And I didn't know this at the time, but I just felt like because this was a secret from my dad, it made me so uncomfortable. So I called my mom and I said, Listen, I I just need you to talk to dad. I need you to tell him everything so he's in the loop because I don't want any secrets. And then all of a sudden she was like, and this is she never used to ask, like, oh, how's it going with the fertility doctor or anything? And she asked at that point. And so I said, Well, actually, I just found out that I'm pregnant, and that's why I don't want to I don't want secrets and I don't want to deal with any of this. And so she said, Okay, I'll talk to him. So, not even five minutes later, I get a phone call back from my dad, and he says, Oh, congratulations on the pregnancy. And your mom told me the other news. And can we just keep this between the three of us? And my re I mean, and now, mind you, they don't know this, but behind the scenes, like I've already talked about this with a ton of people. I've shared my my rainbow wheel on Facebook about like all the cool nationalities I am and whatnot. So people know. I mean, it's not like super duper public, but I haven't been keeping it between the three of us, I'll tell you that much. I mean, if they really wanted it to be that way, why wouldn't you have said that anyway from the beginning? Not that I was gonna follow that, but still. And my answer to him was, well, right now, dad, I don't want to focus on anything like this because I need to focus on keeping this pregnancy healthy. I don't want the added stress or anything. And he was like, Okay. And then he said to me, you know, the first phone call that you made to us. So that was the call I made to be excited that I was Jewish. Right. He goes, from that first phone call, like I knew I knew that you weren't biologically mine. And I just was like, Oh, okay, but we're not gonna talk about it, you know, like, okay, I'm glad you said that, but right now I don't want to talk about it. So I go through my whole pregnancy and I, you know, I have my baby that October, never discuss any of this. Now, actually, rewind for a quick second because January of that year of 2020, I actually met my two sisters in person, as well as my grandmother. So that's the donor's mother. We found out that the donor had passed away in his 40s, and so we never got to meet him, unfortunately. But his mom was still alive and doing well and lives a few hours away from me. And so we just decided let's all get together. So we did get to meet. I got to learn a lot about my family. But what was really cool was like sitting there meeting my grandmother. I I don't think I've ever been speechless in my life. I was speechless because I'm looking at her and I know what I look like, and I'm like, oh my God, that's my face in like 50 years. And there's my nose that I've been questioning and looking for since childhood. And my grandmother, I'm so close with her now, but she'll always say, like, I'm sorry about the nose, you know. And I'm like, there's nothing wrong with the nose, it's just, it's just like a symbol of something I was searching for my whole life. And it took me until you know 38 years old before I finally found it. So anyway, that was like a little side note, but so yeah, oh god.

SPEAKER_00 26:19

I'm sorry, did she know that her son had donated? No, until all of you guys showed up, or yeah, I mean, okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:29

So what happened was like once my so I think me and the first sister I connected with were in shell shock about everything, but once we connected with the other sister, she like had known since she was a kid. So she wasn't really dealing with the trauma the same way that we were. Like it wasn't like a new discovery for her. And she's like an internet sleuth, and like it helped because there's we have people in our family that are like well known throughout history. So like you can Google, and it's not just their Facebook page that comes up, you know, it's like actual, like real things that are like showing up about things they've done in history, and it's super fascinating. And so she was able to figure this out. She sent the girl my grandmother a handwritten note, and we hoped for the best because we didn't really have anybody else. We had tried to reach out to other family members, but they didn't want anything to do with us. So this was kind of our last hope. And as soon as my grandmother got the letter, she called my sister because she had put the phone number in the in the letter, and she was just like, I mean, she's just so happy. I think in her mind, it was like her son is living on, you know.

SPEAKER_00 27:39

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 27:40

She thought this the she thought that the bloodline ended now, and now here we are showing up, you know. And at the time there was four of us, it was three girls and a brother also. He hasn't really been involved even to this day. He's just not interested. But since then, we've also gained one more brother so far.

SPEAKER_00 27:58

So five of us that we know of so far.

SPEAKER_02 28:01

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:02

Well, and what a gift because he didn't marry and have any children that he raised.

SPEAKER_02 28:07

He did get married, but he did not have any children. So her first question, my grandmother's first question when she spoke to my sister was do any of the kids have MS? And she was like, I don't think so, but I don't really know them that well yet, you know. Yeah. But her concern was because that's how my biological father died. He was so he was in the air force and he came home on like leave and he was complaining about some symptoms, some pains and problems he was having. When he got back on base, he went to go see the doctor there. They sent him to a neurologist and he got diagnosed with MS. So he was medically discharged from the military. He came home, they lived in New York City at the time, and he started going to med school at NYU. And that is how he became a sperm donor because they love to target med students. Med students. Yeah. Yep. So she had no idea he was donating. She said, I don't think he ever told my husband either. But if he did, I don't know. You know, he had passed away too. So she said that she would, if he had ever told her, she would have told him not to do it because knowing you have, I mean, he knew he had MS, you know. And so knowing you have MS, like, don't why would you donate?

SPEAKER_00 29:27

You know, but I'll never know the answers to those questions, unfortunately. Well, and that's what I was thinking too, as you were saying that is he was diagnosed, started med school, and donated. So he donated knowing of this diagnosis. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:44

And you know, I've gone through periods of time since this discovery of like, you know, the the fertility industry is so screwed up that I don't even know if they ever asked if there were any medical issues. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 29:57

Like so, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:58

And if they asked and he lied, who was checking that? You know, there was no check or or whatever. So I have no clue, you know, and I'll never know. So it is what it is.

SPEAKER_00 30:11

Yeah, but what a gift that she was surprised with is like you said. Oh my gosh, it was moving on.

SPEAKER_02 30:19

Yeah, it's like so her son, my bio-dad's name is Pablo, and so it's you know, Pablo's legacy. Like we live on. And interestingly enough, she was in the middle of or almost done with writing a book, actually, about the history of the family and everything. It's like I hit the jackpot when it comes to learning my ancestry because she is she's like 94 years old, but she remembers everything, and it's all in a book, too. So, like, I have her book that she wrote, and so it's all my family's history. And she actually, in like the very last chapter, because she was just finishing the book, and in the last chapter, she wrote about us and how we appeared. So now she's always telling us, like, oh, you guys have to write the next series, you have to write the next book, right? Right, stories gotta go on.

SPEAKER_00 31:07

All right, oh, I love that. I love that for all of you that you have that strong connection with her. Oh, she's that history.

SPEAKER_02 31:15

Yeah, she's just like I said, it's like the jackpot. That the silver lining for all of this has been the new my sisters, I would say, and my brother and my grandmother, you know, that's the best part about the whole thing.

SPEAKER_00 31:31

Yes, you're right. You did you did hit the jackpot. And I I think there's there's so many things that can go wrong, as we know, and the shock of it is is one thing, but to be able to connect with siblings as much as they want to be involved too, I think is is really key to healing. But it also you you kind of touched on it, the difference when a child knows their truth from a very young age, if that's donor conception, adoption, or you know, an NPE, having that information is part of your story from the beginning. It's not life-altering when you find out as an adult. Yeah, the deception and all of that. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:23

Absolutely. I think, you know, and I asked my sister too, because two of us learned in our late 30s, and she learned when she was, you know, I want to say like 12 or 13. So technically they say that's still too late, but it was uh she had a lot longer than we did to kind of let it settle. But, you know, I asked her straight out, like, do you think that that helped you? And she said, Absolutely, absolutely. And even the brother who doesn't communicate with us, he's also known since a young age. And so I can't help but think, you know, and we've had conversations like once or twice, but I can't help but think it's because he doesn't feel like he needs to connect with us because he feels very settled in his life and he doesn't need this. And for people who grew up feeling like an outsider, and then you learn this and everything, it's you know, who was I supposed to get answers from? Right, you know, if my parents weren't gonna tell me anything, they kind of pushed me to start having relationships with these other family members who could fill in the blanks, you know. And even my sister's mother was, you know, helpful with that because she would share what her experience was that she went through. And the mother of my the brother we don't really speak to, she also was in communication with us and shared information about the process too. So, you know, it really helped us, new people finding out at such a late point in life, to understand a little more about the process and whatnot. But for sure, it's it's totally different experience for you know, the people who know since a young childhood versus those of us finding out halfway through your life and it's like upending everything.

SPEAKER_00 34:11

Yep. Yeah, definitely. So what was your relationship like with your mother before the discovery?

SPEAKER_02 34:25

Well, so it's funny. I mean, I I've been in therapy now for so after the pandemic, I thought my anxiety was related to like postpartum and stuff. And so I started seeing a therapist, and then quickly, you know, like therapy does all these traumas that I had buried down deep, deep down and pretended never happened and forgot about really as like a defense, you know, to protect myself really started coming to the surface. And so I think going back to like my teen years, I, you know, and I think this is common with daughters and mothers. My teen years, like I was not close with her at all. But even like looking back, I said earlier how my dad was the nurturer, you know, like usually that's the mother's role, yeah, right. She wasn't that person, you know. I learned from an early age that the best way to get through life was to become invisible because that made my mom happy. If I wasn't a bother, that was a good thing. So, like I would be commended about how great it was that I played with my Barbies all by myself in my bedroom and I didn't, you know, need someone to play with me or entertain me and whatever. And to this day, my mom will still talk about that and make it sound like it's this like, oh, what an amazing thing. In my head, I'm right. And in my head, I'm thinking, like, no, I was like five or six, and you made it clear you wanted nothing to do with me, and I was supposed to just hide away. And you know, there was abuse in the home, there was a lot of emotional neglect. So obviously, when you go through abuse, there are side effects to that. There's mental health problems that come along with that. And so when I was struggling with various issues throughout, you know, teen years and college years, she was very hands-off, very, very hands-off. It was, you know, I couldn't talk to her about it. It was just a bother. And it goes back to like my childhood. It's like I was supposed to just always remain invisible, basically. Like, unless I was somehow bringing this idea of perfection back home, right? So, like if she could showcase me somehow, then I was important to focus on. So if I was doing really well in sports or music or school grades or whatever, that was all stuff we could talk about, focus on, and broadcast. But if I was struggling the abuse that took place at home, nobody knew, nobody knew about that stuff. And that was that was their plan. They wanted it to look perfect on the outside. And so I got in line with that. And so yeah, like childhood, I just learned that lesson to just skate under the radar and you know, be invisible. I think as I got older into adulthood, her and I got closer. And we had a decent relationship. I mean, but once this happened, it's everything came flooding back, you know, and it's not great anymore.

SPEAKER_00 37:50

Well, and question for you. So you have you were raised with an older brother. Actually, kind of two questions. Did do you know if he's donor-conceived also?

SPEAKER_02 38:01

So yes, I found that out a few years into my discovery when I finally sat my parents both down together and I asked straight out, and they said, Yeah, we followed the same process. And I just remember saying, Well, have you told him? Right. And the answer was no. And I was like, So you learned absolutely nothing about what we've gone through. And they said they were gonna tell him, and I had a feeling they weren't, but they said they wanted to do it in person, and he lives in North Carolina, so they were going down there like the next month or something, and I was like, Okay, that's fine. So, like a few days before they were leaving, I asked them again, like, Oh, do you have a plan? How are you gonna tell them? And my mom was like, Well, I guess if your dad doesn't bring it up, I will. And I was like, Okay, she's not saying a word, right? And so I let them go, and then when they came back, I just had this feeling that they didn't say anything. And I reached out to my sister-in-law. My brother and I, we're getting better now, but we had a very tumultuous relationship, and so the heavy stuff I've always felt more comfortable talking to his wife about than him, and so she's known this my donor conception drama and story, bits and pieces of it. I've tried not to overwhelm her because you know, those are her in-laws, and I didn't want to like, you know, make her feel any kind of way about them. So I I reached out to her and I was just like, So, question when my parents were down there, did they talk to you about like any of the donor-conceived stuff? And she was like, You mean like about you or is there more? And I was just like, Oh my god, they didn't say a word. And I was like, No, there's more. And so I ended up telling her. And you know, my thought was like, I gave them the chance, yeah. But he deserves to know. They have three daughters, and so I was like, for health reasons, if nothing else, you know. I mean, they all deserve to know. And so what they do with that information is is on it's their decision to make, you know, that's their lives. But I just felt like my part was like they they deserve to know the truth, and then they can do with that information whatever they want.

SPEAKER_00 40:18

Which is the first thing I thought of yeah, when you said that they knew or what you had, she was a your your sister-in-law at least was aware of your discovery. Personally, as the wife or as the sibling, the first thing I would say is, wait a minute, am I also? And to just kind of blow over it either because of denial or yeah, lack of interest, or yeah, it's hard to know. But god, I like it would be my first question to my parents would be like, Okay, mom and dad. Yeah, no, my ideas, but not me.

SPEAKER_02 40:59

Yeah, I know. My brother actually wanted like nothing to do with any of this. So his wife had spoken to him a little bit about my discovery and whatnot, and he just really didn't want to be aware of it, involved in it. He thought, you know, she's just opening Pandora's box by doing all this, and like so he really didn't want to know about it or be involved with it. I think at that point, you know, his theory was like to just like bury his head in the sand and pretend it's not actually there. And and it's pretty on par for like how my parents are. So I kind of like I am definitely the odd person in my family because I'm the one who wants all the answers and you know won't stop until I get them. But everybody else is like, oh, let's just pretend it's not happening or you know, it's not there.

SPEAKER_00 41:51

So we don't talk about it, it didn't, it's not true.

SPEAKER_02 41:54

Oh, oh my god, and that really hurt me so much because it's living inside of me on a daily basis, it is affecting me all day, every day. At that point, it was all day, every day. Um, and it was affecting my mental health, and you know, in addition to that, while I'm going to therapy, all these memories are coming back now, and we're opening up things I had tucked away. And, you know, I it was so hard to just get through that time because I just felt like there's this big elephant in the room. They've made it very clear that they do not want to discuss this. And I mean, my mom is still denying even knowing about it. So what am I supposed to do? Like, I I don't I guess I'll just keep quiet about it. And that just did more harm for me than anything.

SPEAKER_00 42:49

Well, and I think, you know, if I'm putting myself in your shoes as an as an NPE, so it affects us so personally because, like you said, it's living in you, it is half of who you are, and so if I by them squashing any conversation openness about it, it's like squashing you half of who you are and and your well-being, and and it's discrediting you, like I guess it's it's so apparent to me and to so many of us, yet they thought it was okay because they had done it for 30 some odd years. And and and and and as a mother, as we both are mothers, when you talk about that young Lori who was praised for not existing in the house, like you know, quietly hiding out in your room and self entertaining. I have to wonder as a mother like, did she have these children for your dad? She didn't want the burden of raising children or just for the looks because it's what we're supposed to do is we're supposed to have two children and a white picket fence, and I did what I had to do, but I don't want to do it kind of a thing, you know?

SPEAKER_02 44:25

I I think where I'm at now with the whole idea is that you know, and I and one of the biggest things we hear as being donor-conceived, that's I hate it, but one of the things is you were so wanted. And when people say that, I can't help but reflect back on my upbringing. And like I was so wanted for what though, right? Like, so to everything you just said, Stacy, like I was so wanted so that they could like hide me away unless I was able to be a trophy for them. Right. I I suffered abuse in that house, neglect in that house. Like, what was I so wanted for? Personally, I think, you know, they were they're almost 80 years old. So like at that point, they were at the age where it was just the expectation was you get married, you have kids. That's just what you're supposed to do in life. And so all their friends were, you know, able to have kids. Like, and it's evident that they've struggled because my my parents' friends' kids are all older, you know, than us because it took them a long time to get pregnant. And I think it was, I don't think she, I don't want to say like she didn't want kids because she went through a lot to have us, but I don't think she was, I don't think she wanted to be a mom.

SPEAKER_00 45:49

Right.

SPEAKER_02 45:50

If that makes sense. Like she wanted to have the children so that you know she fulfilled that expectation to check that box, right? Right. But I don't think she wanted to take on the role of being a mom. And so, you know, the other interesting thing is that she was a, she's retired now, but she was an elementary school teacher. Oh. And so as an adult, like looking back on this stuff now and knowing all the suffering that I did as a kid and how as a teacher, you are aware when kids are struggling, like you pick up on these things. But with your own daughter, you just chose to like, you know, ignore it. I think she got tired of kids at work and didn't want to be a parent when she came home. And it was just an annoyance. And so, like I said, I just learned early on if I stay quiet and I play quietly by myself, I'm not a bother, I don't get in trouble. This is just how I have to do things. And I was always that person, even now, like I don't like to have confrontation, I don't like to ruffle feathers, you know, that's just not me. But yeah, I think that's why they I think that's what I was so wanted for, for them to be able to say that they're parents.

SPEAKER_00 47:04

Yeah. Well, and we know within the community, we hear it all the time that you know it was a very different time back then. And although you being conceived in the 80s is a lot later than you know, some of the stories where there was such a stigma to you know, in the 50s, 60s, 70s, where if if you didn't have children, there's something wrong with you. And yeah, I don't know. And you know, I think about I I I always flip when I talk to people like you know, we've had and and we've sat in sessions and cried and we've done all those things, but you know, between being a mother and that that little girl and trying to I always put myself in in other people's shoes and and try and imagine what that's like is you've got this mother who is I I assume she was a great teacher and she doted over these students because she was on a show. Like she was had to be this, you know, putting on this performance and and then you going home and knowing what it's like at home, and it was tough.

SPEAKER_02 48:28

And I've had conversations like with my therapist, and I do a lot of like meditation and and mindful meditation, and I think back about me as a little girl, and it makes me I'm getting emotional right now because I feel so bad for that little girl. And I have a little girl, and she's five years old now, and she's a lot, she's high energy, and but I can't imagine ever, ever, I'm so sorry, ever.

SPEAKER_00 49:04

No, do not apologize.

SPEAKER_02 49:06

Do not I can't imagine ever seeing her struggling and walking away, you know, and like I just remember it's funny, like it's become kind of a joke at retreat, but the hugs because I always I always wanted hugs and I didn't get them, you know. And like I've made it such a point now with my daughter that anytime and she knows it, you need a hug, you just ask and I'll be there. And yeah, so the hugs are like, you know, for those of you listening that don't know, I whenever we go on retreat, I make these little drawings, it's just like little hugs, like a pocket hug. So everyone, if they want one, they can take it. And a lot of people keep them in their phone cases or in their cars, and it's just like it reappears for them every now and then. Oh, there's yours.

SPEAKER_00 49:55

I just I have mine on a board that I can see from my desk, and I've got one uh in my journal. Yes, she does these beautiful, and I'll try and attach a picture to the show notes or a little pop and see.

SPEAKER_02 50:08

Yeah. Because honestly, and I know a lot of people aren't huggers, but I I just I just feel like a hug can solve so many problems. And I just wish that I had gotten more hugs as a kid, and I didn't, you know. That was that's the thing, is like if you looked from the outside, and this was the plan, right? All along, they just everything had to look perfect, but inside it was dark and ugly, and there was so much emotional neglect, and it's just like I I remember doing like a mindful meditation a couple months back now, and just sitting there, and little Lori came and sat in my lap in this meditation, and I just put my arms around her, and I mean, tears were pouring down my face because I just wish I had had that as a child. And you know, it's like my mission to make sure my kids never ever feel the way that my mother made me feel because I just don't ever want anyone to hurt like that. Yeah, you know, I I just don't think I I can't even in my wildest dreams as a mother, I cannot understand the behaviors that my mother had and the things she did and said to me. And like I I just can't never, I can't even understand that, you know. And if I was to ever even try again to like bring this stuff up to her, she would not, you know, it gets turned around. This is you know, true narcissism because if I brought this back to her, oh, I was just such a terrible mother, right? I never did anything right, you know, and you can't have the conversations, like nothing, it doesn't go anywhere. So it's like not even worth it. And I had to learn that because for the longest time, I really, really, really wanted them both, but I think more so my mom, because my dad did come clean fairly early. And I mean, we didn't even get to it yet, but like my mom continued to lie for a few more years after that. So I hold more resentment towards my mom because I thought approaching her separately, really trying to have that compassion and to protect her, thinking maybe she did something behind my dad's back or whatever. And to learn that all along it was, you know, she wasn't protecting me, she didn't give a shit about me. It was about her, it was about her, it was about her, and like you can and and I agree with you that it was a different generation, and I can totally empathize with that. I really can. I understand that talking about fertility problems back then was so different than it is now, you know. Yeah, but I can understand why they couldn't at least talk to me about it, you know. Nobody's asking you to broadcast it if you're not comfortable with that, but I have a right to know who I am. And and if you didn't talk about it my whole life and you didn't tell me for whatever reason, why is it when I have this information and I approach you with it over and over and over again, you still don't want to just come clean. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 53:23

That that's what I was thinking the whole time. That I also empathize and try and understand the different times because we we we have no idea what it was like in our parents' youth and the decisions they made. But every time it's come up for me, it was throughout my childhood. I I asked about my dad kind of a thing, and she had every opportunity to tell me the truth. And for you, you had the scientific, well, okay, so let's we don't even have to talk about when you're a child and asking about if I'm adopted or not. I mean, those were obvious opportunities, but when you had that scientific proof and she still was denying it, is I you know, I also am in in therapy and have been for a number of years now since my discovery, is I've learned and through the community that so many of the mothers they've they've told the story that they're telling everybody so many times that I think they start to believe their own lies. And so until like I was ready.

SPEAKER_02 54:45

I just I needed to talk about this. I needed to know that she I needed her to stop lying, you know, and I remember just like losing it on her. She was at my house watching my daughter, and I just lost it. I mean, I was screaming and and yelling and like, stop lying to me. Like, I know, I know, stop lying to me. Stop telling me you don't remember this because I know you do. Yeah, and like she, you know, and the crazy thing is my my ring camera caught the entire argument, which I love now. Yeah, because now I can it was very painful to watch it years ago, but now I can watch it and I'm so proud of myself, not necessarily at the screaming and cursing, um but right just that I still felt for myself and for once I didn't feel like I needed to be invisible for her sake, you know, and like I let loose and I just said it all and like crying and screaming, and she at the end of the conversation literally because at one point she even says, I think I just convinced myself that it didn't happen, which is what we were just saying, and like okay, I can see that, but when someone keeps coming to you and bringing it to you, like you obviously remember this did happen, you know.

SPEAKER_00 56:09

And not just someone, not just someone coming to you, your daughter begging you to tell the truth.

SPEAKER_02 56:18

At the end of this huge explosion, she looks me dead in the eye and she's like, because Lori, the God's honest truth is I just don't remember it. And I just like my heart sunk, and I just remember thinking, like, Lori, you are making yourself crazy by trying to get her to come, you know, acknowledge it, own it, talk about it. It's just not gonna happen. And I was like torturing myself because at that point, for some reason, I just felt like I needed that. I needed her to say, yes, I did this, and I'm sorry I never talked to you about it, and I'm sorry that I've lied to you these past few years, but I never got that conversation ever to this day. The closest I got was this like lackluster finally, where she said, Yes, I'm sorry I lied to you, and that was it. Wow, and like I was like, after everything, and and you know, they knew I was suffering. I mean, I was like a recluse, you know, I was so depressed and I was so down, and they knew it. And I'm like, you know, I remember even after the fact, my mom said to me, like, oh, I knew something was wrong because you just seemed so distant. And I'm like, but you never came to ask how I'm doing. Not once, not one time was did any did either of my parents come to me and say, you know, how are you doing with all this? And and that was like a big part of my explosion too, is I'm like, how do you know I'm suffering and not even even that's not enough? And I'm a mom, I've got kids too. Like, I just oh, it was so it was so hard. Like, even looking back on it now, I don't have there is no rational explanation I can come up with for why it's okay for them to just have wanted to keep this a secret for the rest, you know, till they die and take it to the grave. One point, again, the years blur together, but at some point, I just decided, like, all right, I'm gonna come clean. And I went to their house and I sat with both of them together, and I just said, Okay, so here's the situation. My my brother was abused, so then he abused me, and my dad says to me, Nope, I was physically abusive to both of you. And I just was like, What? I didn't remember him doing that. Wow, and he told me, you know, it was when I was very, very young. And the interesting thing was that I had been talking about these flashbacks I had had in therapy, but I couldn't see who the person was because I was so young. And so now he says this, and all and I assumed it was my brother because that's what happened. And now that he said this, I'm like, oh my God, that's that was him. It was him. I remember hiding under my dining room table. Like I had all these flashbacks of memories, and I just and he said it. And if you knew him now, he is an entire you would never believe that he was abusive because he's like a mush now, you know. Otherwise, I wouldn't let him around my kids, you know, but he's like an entirely different human. I think that, you know, he was drafted for Vietnam, and I think he never got like so many of them, never got that, you know, help when they came home, and it trickled down. And so I said this to them, and I I mean, I laid everything out. I was like, you know, you guys really, this is where the trigger warning comes in. Like, I mean, I was so low, like I was suicidal, and I had kids, and like, you know, I hate that they put and I don't like listen, I'm responsible for a huge portion of my own mental health. But if these things hadn't happened to me, like this is the side effect of abuse, of neglect, of being lied to and manipulated. And so, you know, I I just told them straight out, like I almost killed myself. And you know, that conversation got us a little further, where my said, you know, I never should have lied to you. And then my dad is sitting right next to her and he's saying, Well, you didn't really lie. And I'm like, Yes, she did. Yeah, yes, she did, over and over and over and over again. So I don't even know that they still understand the magnitude that that withholding of information and then lying, you know, what it really did to me and to my life and my well-being. I forgot this part. There was one point where before that conversation, that I did sit both of them down and I said, I need to know, I need to understand what happened. I need you to tell me and my dad, and they were sitting right next to each other on the couch, and my dad just starts going, This was the doctor, this was the street. We went into Manhattan, it was this street with this cross street, and it was this is the procedure, and this is I mean, he told me every single detail, sung like a bird. And then my mom, who's sitting right next to him, looks me dead in the eye and says, I don't remember any of this. And I'm just like, How like, come on, you know, I I just I'm just not buying that. I think she remembered. I I know she remembered, and she just didn't want to admit to it. That's sad. That's really sad. It has sad, it has ruined our relationship. I the only reason they are even in my life at all is for my children. My kids love them, and they are actually really good grandparents. They weren't great parents, but they were good, they're good grandparents, and uh it's so minimal. Like I don't I don't have the desire to talk to them at all, you know. I'm just they burn me so badly. I don't know how you come back from that. It took four years before my mother finally said, okay, I do remember, and I'm sorry I lied to you. Four years, and that's on top of the 36 years before that when she didn't tell me anything, you know. So I don't know how you forgive that. So I instead of focusing on forgiveness, I just focused on acceptance and I worked really, really hard with my therapist to kind of get to this point of, you know, I can't control them. I can't control things they say or do, but I can control how I respond to it. And I don't like how I how I am, how I feel like this. And so I really have done a lot of work to focus on helping myself and just accepting that in there, like they just they can't give me what I need. They never could. They never could. They were never equipped to be the parents to this girl, you know. Maybe I was too sensitive, maybe I was too needy, you know. I don't know. Whatever it was, they were never equipped to parent, that's for sure. And they're both retired teachers, so they were good at taking care of other people's kids, just not their own.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:42

Well, and I don't like that you said you were too needy to I think you were a child who had things that weren't being fulfilled by the people who should be fulfilling them, which is love and affection and comfort and kindness and and safety and and all of those things. And you know, you you were talking about how they're in your life because of your your children, that's their better grandparents. And for me, and it and it reminded me of that, is when you think about the lies and the deceptions for from the one person or two people that you should trust more than anybody in the entire world, which is your parents, they do this lying and deception and this continued, like you said, four year more years of lying and denying and all of those things. For me, when I've initially realized how toxic my mother was, I stopped and asked myself, if this was a friend, another family member, would I want that relationship or those traits in a relationship that I continue going back for? And the answer was no, I wouldn't allow to be talked to by anybody, but yet I'm allowing my mother, who again should have been the safe person to do it. And that was, and as you were describing those things, I'm like, you would have cut a friend off, I would hope for three years and 10 months ago, right? Right or you know, in that, and so I think that as a as a child, we give our parents so much grace because they're our survive.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:40

Yeah, survival. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:43

Once you learn and know better, you can do better and make better choices on who you allow in. And obviously, they're they're a step removed from your children, so you have that level of comfort. And trust that they cannot do to your children what they did to you.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:05

Otherwise, you would forbid that from Yeah, they wouldn't be in their lives if they did behave that way with my kids. But, you know, there are even, you know, there's certain things that I would say our relationship is limited. We're not no contact. We're more like low contact. My mom will try to like text me daily, like funny pictures of dogs or memes or whatever. And I'm just like, yeah, no. Like that's that's not how our relationship is gonna move forward. Like, that's not gonna be it, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:43

Just pretend.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:44

Yeah. No. And I mean, they would wish more than anything that that's what I would do. But no, like that's not what we're gonna do. You know, there's this whole other side of my life, and I do think that because of my upbringing, I tolerate behavior. I've tolerated behavior past tense now, but that I shouldn't have. And there were friendships that I did allow in my life that were one-sided and that were not balanced. And it's and and throughout this whole process, I lost those friendships too because I said enough. I don't, I don't, I can't, I can't only be, I can't be the only one putting in the effort here. And I also I just felt like I was being mistreated. And so I did walk away from some friendships because of that. With my parents, I don't know, like I'm not at the point. I've gone, I've gone back and forth. I've definitely had my moments where I've thought of cutting them out completely. I think my mom is a narcissist completely. I think my dad is sort of under her spell. My dad is a totally different person when she's not around, you know, and it's sad because he, I think, has to mask himself around her because she just attacks and nitpicks and you know, rolls her eyes and does her like, you know, exasperated like sighs, and she's just not nice, you know. We've caught we went away begrudgingly last summer, a big family vacation. It was supposed to be like a whole bunch of us, my cousins and everything, and then a bunch of people backed out, and it ended up being just my parents, me with my family, and my brother and his family. And so it wasn't quite as like diluted, which is what we had hoped for. Right. So we went and even in that week that we were away, the the stuff that we encountered, and it's just they're just she's just mean, she's just nasty and miserable. Like, I feel like she's just a totally miserable human being. And like you're here, you've got a week with your whole family together, which doesn't happen often, by the way, because they live in North Carolina and we're up in New York, so we're not all together very often. And you're still like you still can't even just be happy and soak it up and like live in the moment, you know? And so I think like it's much bigger than me. I it's not just me, it's just it's her. It's her. And I'm sure that she has trauma from her childhood. I don't know what it was, but I mean, she made comments to me growing up, like her mom, her mom, my nanny, and I would get we got very close. And I remember being like on a phone call with her and my with my grandmother, and like at the end of the call, you know, you say, I love you, you know, talk to you soon. Bye. And my mom would get mad because she'd be like, she never told me she loved me. And so, you know, I'm sure there was some trauma there. I never saw it because again, she was always great with me. But my mom always exhibited these signs of jealousy with me in general, and I think that's classic with narcissism. Even if, like, so like in that situation, I'm sure her mom did something, you know, did many things terrible, I guess, to her. I don't know, but break the cycle. That's what I'm doing. You know what I mean? Like, you didn't have to follow in her footsteps then. You could have made the decision to be different, but you didn't. And so here we are. And you know, I just she would get jealous of like when I moved out, and like if I needed help at my house with something, my dad would like come and help me and she would get like mad about that. And it's like, but I'm his daughter, like he's helping me, you know, whatever, like fix like the gutter. I don't know, like whatever it was. It wasn't a big deal. But she would make comments oh, he doesn't do the work. I have a to-do list a mile long, and he doesn't do work for us around the house, but for his daughter, he'll do whatever, you know. And like, I was like, Well, yeah, I mean, maybe it's because he doesn't want to be home with you because you're a miserable person. He's just such a different person when she's not around. And at that vacation, my dad even said to me, He's like, What do you think of this trip? Would you guys want to do this again? And I said to him straight out, I said, Dad, nobody wants to go on vacation with mom. If it's just you, we'll all go. Nobody wants to go away with mom, including the grandkids. They don't want to go on vacation with her. They can tolerate her for a few hours here and there, which is really all they have with her. Right. But they don't want to be on a vacation with her. That's not enjoyable. Like, that's not how they want to spend their time. But so I tell him straight out. I set boundaries, and like I've said to her before, too, like, you're always so I used to call her like Debbie Downer, negative Nancy. Like, I'm like, mom, you gotta like chill, like you always are pointing out negative negativity. It's like it just exudes off of her, you know. It's like you get one life, try and enjoy it instead of like beating down on people you supposedly love. Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:00

It's and and the same message for your dad. Like I can't imagine like he's in survival mode, like he's doing what he has to do to survive living with her, right? Exactly. But he's he also has choices, and so he's gonna lose a relationship with his well daughter. I was gonna say kids, but his daughter and grandkids have limited because of his wife, and he also deserves better. And it is 2026, it's not unheard of for I think the term is gray-haired divorces, like you know, people of a certain age are finally feeling strong enough to to walk away. Walk away and be happy, and it's the the final chapter of your life, and how sad. But I think it also shows you know, you're in therapy. I'm in therapy. So many within our community and and that we've met along the retreats are in therapy because we do want to do better than our parents or mothers, and we want better for our children. And I've talked about it before, I believe, on a previous episode, that my mother also was very jealous. I didn't recognize it at the time. I just thought I was doing something wrong. But there's three of us girls, and anytime any one of us did anything great, including into adulthood, having a happy marriage, having successful careers, she hated that. She was so jealous of it. Whereas both of my children, I mean, my son is 31 years old and he has a great job. He does well for himself, and I'm so proud and happy for him. Why would I want anything less than that? Yes, yeah. I and I I don't take credit for it. It's not like I'm showing, I'm telling everybody, oh, you should see what my son. That's not what it's about. I want him to be happy, I want him to do what he wants to do. He takes great care of him himself financially, and you know, all of those things. And so I think, as you said, why not do better? Why would your mom not want to? She's retired, she's at the beach with her family on a vacation. What could possibly? But those are also the people who need therapy the most. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:38

She and will not, she will never go to therapy. Although she has said in the past, like some of the times when I have like talked to her about this and she's like, Well, maybe I need therapy. And I'm like, You do? Yeah, yes, you do, but she never takes the next step to actually start. So it's like, well, we're not gonna get anywhere then. But yeah, I feel bad for my dad too, but only to a certain extent. Because to like to what you said, like he has options too, you know, and I think he just feels stuck. They've been married forever. I mean, 50-something years at this point, they've known each other since they were like three years old or something crazy. So it's like, this is what he knows. This is, you know, he's under that spell, is what I call it. Because when he comes over here, like if he has to like drop something off, or I mean, when he's by himself, he is just a totally different person. And my brother and his wife say the same thing. And the thing that has actually helped mend the relationship with my brother over these past couple years is that we're connecting now because we realize so much of the problems that we had between each other was the triangulation. My mother would pit us against each other. And so he was the bad kid, quote unquote. And I was the angel. That would be, you know, I never misbehaved and I was so successful with music or whatever it was, right? But that was not about me. That was so that she could broadcast it. So she, oh, look what I did. I made this little girl and look at what she's doing. You know, it was for her. But anyway, my brother and I have really bonded over the past like two years, I would say, coming together and understanding that we were raised in a household where there was a lot of trauma done to us both. And the reason we didn't get along and didn't like each other or trust each other or have any kind of a happy relationship was not because of how we felt about each other. It was because of our parents and mostly my mom. I don't think my dad was so much guilty of that. But my mom, it was always, always like a comparison. My brother, you know, he did normal kid things, but he was, you know, labeled the bad kid. He misbehaved, he didn't get great grades all the time, and you know, and so therefore it was a comparison, you know, oh, your sister's doing so much better with school and with music or whatever it was, you know. And it's like, of course he's gonna hate me because he's a kid and he's being told that I'm better than him. Why wouldn't he hate me? Like, that's not fair, you know. So I think like as we've gotten older and the two of us have realized the trauma that we went through, we've sort of bonded over it. And I'll never forget we had a conversation once that you know, we we don't talk much on the phone, but he had called me for something and we were talking, and like I just remember laughing because we were sharing stories about like our mom together and like how ridiculous it was, and like it's just like an opportunity for us to grow closer. I mean, I hate that it has to be, you know, when we're in our 40s, but yeah, better late than never, I guess. And you know, I really think my mom did a lot of damage with putting us against one another.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:54

So and I think I think there's a lot of intention, like it's not just an accident, like I don't think so either. They they do it because I'm one of three girls and this same stuff, like we hated each other growing up. My youngest sister is 10 years younger than me, and so it's a it was a very different relationship. I would say I didn't we didn't hate each other. I took care of her, I raised her for the most part. My middle sister, we hated each other, and in fact, there was a 30-year separation between us of no talking because of my mother, and I think as to why, uh, but yeah, it's it's definitely, and I I love that he is opened up and allowed you to talk. And and I would think it's really interesting to hear memories and how each of you remember it. And maybe even don't remember it, one may not remember because of how it impacted them versus the other. But yeah, I I love that for you. I love that you're getting too. I would think it's almost validation, like, okay, it wasn't just me.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:08

Yes, even yes, definitely about validation because like I had blocked away so much of what had happened in our childhood. And then like I had a friend, I still have a friend who lives, he she grew up across the street from me though, and she had a brother that was the same age as my brother, and so the four of us would play together all the time. And I and when I told her about all of this stuff, and I was like, you know, my dad said that he was abusive to me, and I was like, I don't remember it, but I do remember like vague memories or whatever. And she was like, I remember that. Wow, and I was like, Oh, and it is validating, not that I wanted her to know I was abused, and it's like yay, great, but like, yeah, oh my god, someone else recognized it, you know, and like she would tell me how you know, she lived right across the street, and there were like her and her brother weren't allowed to sleep at our house because of you would hear screaming just across the street. So, like, there was one time where she did her mom did allow them to come over and sleep over, and then I guess there was some type of an argument that it exploded in the house, and she heard my dad yelling and screaming from across the street and came over to get the kids, and then she would never allow them to sleep over again. And like I would escape to her house, you know. Her mom was more she was who I would go to if I had like boy troubles and I needed to speak to a mom for some advice or you know, whatever it was. Like that was where I would go. And and it's funny because like the comforting memories I have from my childhood, a lot of them took place in that house, not in my house.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:45

Yeah. Well, and it's interesting because we talked about how your mom we we we conclude, right? We don't know for sure, but it was all about show and we had to look proper and and all of that, but yet the yelling and fighting and screaming was so loud that the neighbor across the street could hear it. Yeah, that it's it's surprising actually, because I know many people who would fight quote unquote quietly because they didn't want the neighbors to know that they were fighting.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:19

But wow. And she shared that with me. Like, I don't recall those specific things, but she does, and she shared that with me. So I was like, I believe it, you know, because I know what was going on in the house, but I think you know, I don't know if they realize didn't realize that the neighbors could hear, I don't know, but I mean she came across the street to get the kids, apparently. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:45

Well, I'm glad you at least had a mother figure, yeah, the mother of your friend across the street who knew the family really well and who could give that to you. So you had that.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:57

Yeah, she was the one I remember. Like, if I had boy troubles, you know, like I wouldn't talk to my mom about that stuff because she it was always like, What's the big deal? You're 16, who cares? You know, and it's like, no, but as a 16-year-old, like this is my life right now. Like, my my boyfriend kissed another girl, like I'm devastated. This is the world is ending, you know. Like that's how it feels when you're that age. So but she wouldn't ever, she couldn't like put herself in those shoes. It was just get over it, move on. Who cares? You know, and that's I mean, that's everything. Like, she still wants that. I think even with this whole DNA discovery and everything, it's like, why are we still dealing with this? Can't we just move on? Like, I really think that's what she would expect at this point. And it's like, yeah, I'm moving on, but you destroyed our relationship. So I'm moving on without you.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:49

Yeah. Well, and I've said this before, and I'm gonna say it every time it comes up is when that comment is made and it just like fingernails on a chalkboard. Like, are we still talking about this? You know, my mom, I can't tell you how many times has said it, but my comeback to anyone who ever says that is so in your case, your your mother had what 38 years to think about it, come to terms with it, get over it, whatever it is. And you're a few years in and you're still talking about it. So my comeback is always well, my mom, I was 47, you had 47 years to figure it out. I'm gonna take 47 years to figure it out.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:38

I'll still be figuring it out by the time you die.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:40

So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:41

It's true though, it's true. I I I mean, it really just really ruined so much. And and I say ruined, but you know, with therapy, I've learned it was really never good. But I think I I fell under that same spell of like, oh, it looks good on the outside, so it's good, you know. But I just don't there's so many times, even now in life, where they're so neglectful that I I just like I was just a side little story. I was in 2022, I got COVID and I ended up with like a massive blood clot. And we were supposed to be going on a big family vacation like a few days later. And I didn't want to go to the hospital. I didn't know what was wrong with me, first of all, but everybody's like, you need to go to the hospital. So I'm like, all right, fine. So I go to the hospital and I find out I have this massive blood clot, it's obstructing blood flow to my intestines. It was like a really serious thing. Yeah. My parents left, went to their all-inclusive resort in paradise, and and they're sending like pictures to me, and I'm in the hospital. I almost died. And like honestly, I don't really need them and want them here, but it would have been nice if they were like, We're gonna reschedule the trip. You know, it's covet, it's like my husband's trying to balance the kids coming to see me in the hospital. He thinks I'm dying and he's got no help. And it was just like, and that was in 2022, and like there's still so many examples, like they just are so yeah, yeah. Like, I I just I I don't understand it. I'm not gonna understand it. So I have just learned to accept this is who they are, otherwise, I will make myself crazy.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:31

Right. This is about them, not you. Yeah, and I have to have this mantra. I like constantly have to remind myself this is about my mom, not me. As we did as children, I think I speak for you as well, is that we we internalize it that it's we did something, there's something wrong with us. We're bad, we're um not worthy, we're not lovable, whatever it might be, because that's what kids do. And now as an adult through uh years of therapy, I realize it's it is not about us, it's about them. And still having to remind ourselves, but as mothers, we don't understand it. And so it's uh it's my husband always jokes with me. I don't know why this continues to surprise you that she's acting this way. Like, but it does, and then I get mad that I'm surprised by it, but yeah, it's this whole cycle.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:25

It's that cycle, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I said earlier that, like, oh, maybe I was too needy. Like, I don't think personally I was too needy. I think I was just the right amount of needy for being a child, but child, yeah, I think for them I was too sensitive, too needy, like too, you know, and so from their point of view, I was like a burden for them, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:51

And that but yes, you were just a child. I was the essential things of of a of a child needs.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:01

I think they felt like okay, we feed her, we clothe her, she has shelter. What else does she really need?

SPEAKER_00 1:27:08

You know, and I mean you should be grateful.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:10

I should be grateful on the outside. You know, they took us on vacations, we had every toy, we were spoiled with toys, you know what I mean? So from the outside, it looked like we were these, you know, well-taken care of kids, but like behind closed doors, it was just a different story. And you know, when I had that conversation with my brother a couple months ago, there was like one flashback that I had had. But remember, like I was really little and he's four years older than me. So like I'll remember portions of things, but I can't put the whole picture together. So I brought this up to him and he was like, I remember that situation. And he goes, actually, it was the same situation because he was talking about one thing from this big fight that that took place in the house. And I was talking about another part of it that took place. And he goes, That was the same fight. It was happening in the same You know, time period, but I didn't remember the other part of it. Right. And he remembered the whole thing. So he actually has been able to fill in pieces for me, also. Huge. Um huge. And his wife is shocked because she'll say, like, okay, I went out to dinner last night with your brother, and he actually started, she's like, he had like a beer or two, but so he started speaking a little more freely. But he shared that, you know, like he grew up in a traumatic household. She's like, he's never used those words before, you know. And he's talked about how, you know, your dad beat the shit out of him. And like he's never told me that before. Like she only knew that because I told her that. Yeah. So I think both of us are breaking the cycle. It's taking him a little longer. But I also think, you know, and I think we can all agree that for men it is different.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:52

It shouldn't be. And I hate that it is, but it is. It's just the societal norms, you know. But he's getting there. And I feel like that little like those are big steps. Those aren't even just baby steps for him, you know. So we're getting closer because I think he has finally realized he's got stuff to work through too. And we can do this together. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:12

And I think that's that says a lot about you and your what work you've done, and you've been able to share that with him and bring him in where he is comfortable opening up. And it it has to help him to realize that he also wasn't making these things up, or it wasn't his fault. So I think that's that that's huge. And maybe there'll be a time where he will want more answers to his daughter conception story.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:54

And his oldest daughter now is 15. So she's getting older. So, you know, she'll if her mom wants to talk to her about doing a DNA test independently, like she'll be able to do that soon enough. But that's again, that's for them to decide. Like, you know, I can't worry about what they choose to do with the info. I know what I would do with that info, yeah, but they don't want to, or at least not right now.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:19

So that's a good and and like you said, within the community, but this MPE late discovery adoptee late discovery donor conception is not exclusively women, but if you look at the group participants, it's primarily women. And you're right, I think that that the societal bullshit, you know, that men can't don't cry and men aren't vulnerable and they all of those things. And and and who knows, maybe they're all reading it and just not participating, but it might be making a difference to them and and having your brother talk and and get that that confirmation from your sister-in-law that it's really making a difference and having those conversations.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:11

And I think like he so I have this, you know, Instagram page where I share all this stuff on it, and I'm not holding back at all. And he started following me a few months ago. So I think he yeah, so I think he's also, you know, I'm sure he's read my posts and I don't hold back on there. So it's like he's read my posts, and I think it has really opened his eyes to be like, she's talking about this. I'm not the only one who remembers this. So maybe it's okay if I start to open up a little bit. And he's doing it with his wife first, yeah, mostly because that's his wife. They've been married for like 17 years or something, so that's great. But last summer on that same trip, him and I had some listen, we touched the surface, but the fact that I could even say donor conceived to him was a big step. And I did say that. And one of the questions he had was he didn't understand why my one of the friendships that I did end up walking away from that I mentioned to you, she was a friend of mine since kindergarten. And so she was almost like a little sister to him too. And he was like, What happened with that? And there was no way to explain what happened without talking about this discovery, because that really was the final straw. And so I said, I know you don't like to talk about this donor-conceived stuff, but it really messed me up. And I just want to, and so I talked a little bit about that. I talked about some health issues that I have, which relates to my donor or my parents' donor, my biological father. And so it was like baby steps, but it took a lot for me to even open up like that because I was so afraid to for so long.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:50

Yeah. So we're getting it. Yeah. And I, you know, I would like to think that that curiosity will little by little grow because, like you said, he also has children. And just from a medical standpoint, it's so important to know. Because what if you could avoid unnecessary test or get early testing for something you need?

SPEAKER_02 1:33:19

Yeah, exactly. And yeah, and that's why I found it really important to share my medical problems too, because the medical problems that I'm dealing with are a direct result of being donor-conceived because the person had MS. And now here I am. I'm going through tests to determine if I have MS. And so it's like, you know, and I've told him that, and I've told his wife that because it's like these things get passed down. It's important for you to know who makes up 50% of you because guess what? Whatever health problems are in that family are yours to worry about too. So I do worry about my nieces for that respect, but again, I can only do what I can do. And so we'll see where the future goes. Hopefully, he will come around, or she'll my my sister-in-law will be able to like kind of talk him into coming around, maybe.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:11

But right, we'll see. Yeah, we'll see. Well, and I I quickly looked up because I've referred to this book, and when you described your your mom and your dad and their personalities, but this was the book after even in therapy, this book changed how I looked at my mother. And it's adult children of emotionally immature parents. I've heard of this book by Lindsay Gibson. And it's an easy read, you know, it's not overly technical and all of that, but it was the aha moment for me that I realized I will never get from my mom what I want, need, or deserve, as they say. And as you mentioned, my mom is a sad, pathetic, miserable woman. And I now I almost feel sorry for her because what an awful way to live. And it's all about her and not me. And so I I want to bring that up because so much of what you talked about, I think is important for people to hear. But if you read it in and realize it's not, it has nothing to do with us.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:28

Yeah, I did I I've heard of that book before. I definitely want to read that book. And I have often described my parents as exactly that emotionally immature. Yes. Even as like a teenager, I was more emotionally mature than they were. You know, they don't they don't know how to even to this day, they don't know how to handle emotions.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:48

So it's just what it is, they avoid them. Yeah. And that as we know, that doesn't, it doesn't, they don't go away, they come out in different ways, unfortunately. Of course.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:58

Yeah, of course. That's exactly what happens. But I I can't, you know, you have to focus on what we can do better, right? Yep. And so that's where that whole acceptance thing comes into play. Do I agree with behaviors that they've both had? No, of course not. But I have to accept it because I'm not gonna change it and I don't want to make myself crazy trying to anymore. So my family is myself, my husband, and my two children. And that's who I consider family. They're obviously related to me, or at least my mom is, but I I just I don't know. It's like it's it's just a it's a sad situation. Yeah, it's very sad. I feel like I did not realize how traumatic my childhood was until these past I've been with my therapist now for five years. So I I would say over these past five years it has become increasingly apparent. Yeah, and I I see it. And even my husband will be like, You grew up in a really screwed-up house. I kill your stories. And I'm like, I it was so normal to me. I didn't even know it wasn't normal.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:10

Yeah, yeah. Until you do, and yeah, and the phrase came to mind as you were saying that is you know better, you do better. Right. And I agree. I'm actually probably just over five years in therapy, and I love my therapist. I I cannot say enough amazing things about her, and we do a lot of EMDR, but I went into it wanting to not have any regrets of going at that time, no contact. I'm now limited contact, and not have any regrets when she dies. That's my full intention when I went into therapy. And it took about four years of therapy before we even touched on it because there was so much that I thought was normal that came up. So totally relate and and I've done the work and it's not easy. It is hard and self-reflection, and you know, what did I do? What what can I do to I was committed to putting in the work to do better, also. I'm not here to blame. I mean, I'm not gonna excuse any behavior, but I'm not gonna blame who I am based on that because I now know better and I can do better than I think. You can do better. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:30

But you have so much to unpack from like a traumatic childhood. So yeah, it's the same for me. It took years before we've really started digging deep into everything that's like she's looks at you and goes, That's not normal.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:44

What? That's not normal, you know, because you're right, as children, when we grow up in a household, that is our normal, like we don't know any different. Yeah, I mean, you can envy your friends' house, but we don't live there, and so you don't get to see any of their bad either. And so I think, yeah, but uh you you brought up your husband, and one of the questions I wanted to ask you was how has your husband been through this whole process?

SPEAKER_02 1:39:13

So my husband and I, so this is my second marriage. My husband and I got married in July of 2018, and I took this DNA test like two months later. And so our whole marriage has literally been this major, you know, this has been a major thing of it. He has been amazing. I mean, I wouldn't have been able to get through any of this without his support. I mean, like he knows, you know, even in something like, oh, mom's having a bad day, let me take the kids so she can kind of do what she's got to do. You know, he actually was the one who found my therapist because I was so overwhelmed, you know. And I like I called my insurance company and they sent me like a package of like 500 therapists that take my insurance. And I'm just like, I don't have, I can't do this. You know, he found the therapist for me and he he's everything. Like honestly, he has been so supportive. Just oh like I don't even know the words to say. I don't think I would have survived this long without having him, you know. And I I always felt like I had to be such a strong and independent woman. And that was kind of like I think the single mom in me before, you know, getting married to him. And I am so dependent on him now. Like in healthy ways, I think. But I just we have like a true partnership in life. And we're a team. And you know, if I'm having a rough day, he helps me, he picks me up, and you know, he's just he's been by my side through it all. And he's amazing, you know. Thank God I have him because it I don't know how I would have gotten through so much without him. But he's been like he'll he'll point it out too. He'll be like, Your family is so messed up. And I'm like, I know, right? You know, we can joke about it together too.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:09

And I think that's important to do, and I think that speaks volumes to that you picked right. Yeah, you're you're you're you know, I'm I'm also married and divorced and remarried. And as you said that, so I was I don't know, 12 years into my marriage, 12, 13 years into my marriage when this found out, so when I found this out, so I can't imagine in your situation. But what hit me as you were saying that is, and I'm sure you can relate, is from my discovery onward, I'm a very, very different person. So I think it's before discovery and after discovery, and I I hear it a lot in our community, is I'm very different for the better, I think. I mean, I wish I wouldn't have had to have gone through what I I went through. And not all marriages can survive a change and a trauma like that. But I think my my therapist told me early on, because I also was hyper-independent, I don't need him in my life, and I can do anything on my own to now. I also am very much more vulnerable, open, honest, like all of those things. And I think, yeah, and I I know of some marriages who didn't survive this because it is so much. And so I I love that he has been that support for you and that cheerleader for you in finding the therapist because that's threatening, like going outside of the house to have these very raw conversations and not knowing what's gonna come out on the other end. And I I I love that for you. I I love that.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:07

Yeah, and he it's funny because if you look at him, he is like this big, big guy, he played football, you know, and like he's like a total mush. And I say he's like a toasted marshmallow because like the outside shell, he's like all hard. But once you get through that, like he's just such a mush, and like he's just you know, we've gone through a lot in our marriage, and he's just been right by my side through it all. And it's just so nice to know like unconditional love for once. Yep, yeah, amen.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:41

I I agree, I agree. I always and I describe it this way, but it's the truth. Like, I never entirely gave my entire heart, like I always was guarded, and I it was pointed out to me. And yeah, luckily I had a good picker, and I've been able to open that up and it I'm still alive. I didn't get broken because of it. So, yeah, so I think it's huge. So good good for us for having those those good men.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:17

And allowing them, allowing them to take care of us because that was hard, you know. That was that was a big change for me. So that's that's a big deal.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:29

Yeah, my husband used to joke before all of this. He told me I I would never cry. I would never cry. Okay, that's not true. Those commercials on TV with those the dogs and the yes, I would cry over that anytime. But outside of that, unnaturally, I would never cry in front of him, to him. And he would say to me, he goes, That's that's not natural. Like, there's something wrong with you. I'm like, nope, I'm good. I'm I'm good. And so it came out very early in my therapy sessions that you know, you know, I don't cry. I I don't know how to cry, I don't know how to whatever. And so now I tell him, I said it's his fault because now I'll drink I'll cry at the drop of a hat. Like I'll cry anytime. We'll be having a random conversation in the front yard, and I I'll cry. And and so he's it's become our joke, but I think that just speaks to the ability to let our guards down and be safe.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:30

I agree, and I'm like that even with my children too, you know, like sometimes they'll do something and it just like it makes me tear up, you know, because the amount of love I have for them and they have for me, and we have for everybody in our family. I mean, it's just it I never knew unconditional love until I had my own children and husbands, you know. So it's a powerful feeling, it's wonderful.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:58

Yeah, it is it is once you finally get to it, like it's it's scary, but yeah, it is wonderful. All right. So, what advice would you give to others who are struggling with their mothers?

SPEAKER_02 1:46:14

I don't know if I'm an expert on dealing with that, but I think the acceptance is so is like a key piece to it all. Like you can't change their behaviors, you can't change the way they are, you just can't. And you can drive yourself crazy, really trying to, but you're never gonna get there. And so the biggest focus should be on what you can control, and that is how you deal with that. And so, whether that means cutting off contact, having limited contact, having a screaming blow-up like I did, yeah, whatever it is, take care of yourself because you can't you can't fix that, you can't fix them unless they want to fix themselves. So just focus on what you can control and how you respond to it. That would be my advice.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:08

I love that. And a side note, I love that you have the I assume you still have the ring camera video. I do. And and the reason I say I love that is because so the very first time I sat down with my mom, I I still have the the journal. I had gone into the conversation with the written out questions I wanted to make sure that I asked. And so I took notes during the conversation. But I when you're in those moments, there's so much that you can for like you forget. Yeah. And so I wish I had that. So then I could be like, no, I I I am remembering it correctly. I did get to, and like you said, and I'm proud of myself for getting those those words out or that comment out or whatever it might be. So I think we should all have a ring camera video that we can go back to.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:04

I know. At first, at first, when I saw that the ring caught it, I was like, oh my God, I can't even believe that. I can't believe I spoke to her like that. I can't believe it. I still was thinking like I was a kid, like I'm gonna be punished. I cursed at her, you know. Yeah, and then and then like I had that turn in my life where it was just like, no, no, like that needed to happen. Yeah, that was healing for me. And I'm glad I can look back on it now. And it comes up like every year around Christmas time. The memory, it's amazing. I have it saved. Yeah, it's good to reflect back on those on that moment.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:43

I think that was the most, probably the most honest you have ever been, and it was a long time coming. Yeah, yeah, it was. It was good, good for you. Thank you. So, what is next for you as far as your mother, the relationships with your your raised family, which you kind of touched on that with your brother, and your newfound family, your new sisters and brothers?

SPEAKER_02 1:49:12

So my sisters, my new sisters and brothers, that's like a very and my grandmother, it's a very, very bond. It's a big bond that we all share. We are, you know, especially with the girls. I just feel like sisters, I guess they just bond and like, I mean, uh from the first time we met, it was just instant connection. It wasn't weird, it wasn't awkward, it was like we've known each other forever, we just fit together. I hope that that continues. I, you know, we have we all three myself, my one sister, and my brother all have boys that are the same exact age. Wow. And so it's like, oh, it can continue, you know, these cousins can continue to develop a a relationship. And it's so hard to. Figure that out at this stage in life when you're not born with these, you know, like growing up with these people, but we're working on it. My grandmother, I talk to her probably about once a month, at least. I visit her, I try to visit her at least once a year, hopefully twice a year if I can pull it off. But, you know, she's very concerned for me about my health. She's another person who has shown unconditional love for me. Actually, our last conversation, which was probably about last week, was the first time we said I love you to each other. And like meant, you know, meant like really meant it. I mean, there's so much of me that I can see I get from her. She's an artist. I love to do art. There's just so many wonderful things. It's not just the nose, you know. But yeah, I, you know, listen, she's 94 years old, and I just want to soak up as much time as I can with her.

SPEAKER_00 1:50:56

Did uh another side note because I do this as you're talking, I think at the same time. Did she have any other children? She did.

SPEAKER_02 1:51:04

So she had two more children. She had another son who also died very young, not MS related. He actually was he had contracted AIDS, and so he he died very young. And then she has a daughter that was from her first marriage, so it was like a half-sister to my brother. So she's, I don't know, a half-ant or something. But they are actually estranged. So I don't know all the details of the mother-daughter relationship there. But from the stories I've heard from my grandmother's side, anyway, it sounds like the daughter is very troubled. And we did pick up on that when we reached out to her because she was one of the first people we reached out to. So we don't get we don't have any contact with her though.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:48

So and there were you guys are the I was just gonna say, so you are the only grandchildren.

SPEAKER_02 1:51:55

Well, I'm wrong about that. Her daughter had one child, but she has never met him. I mean, he's not she reached out to him to try, but he didn't, you know, who knows what his mom had told him. And so yeah, so us showing up as being, you know, grandchildren and now great grandchildren. I mean, this was like the shock of a lifetime for her in a in a really amazing way, too.

SPEAKER_00 1:52:18

Exactly. What an amazing gift. And the fact that she's so open to it and building these relationships, like what a gift.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:27

What a good it really is, and you know, she's she's an artist, like I said, so she'll have art shows. So we really try to attend her art shows. We were just up in upstate New York in February, and it was like negative a million degrees, it was so cold. But you know, we my three, my two sisters and I, we came together so we could go to her art show, and like so art lives on in this family because my kids are both artistic. I mean, and it's just like I don't know, it's just that's that's the silver lining of the whole entire discovery. As far as the relationship with my family that I was raised with, I mean, I have boundaries set. Okay, and if they're not respected, then that'll have to be addressed. And like I said, they're only in my life because of my children. I would open my arms to my dad being in my life, but I just don't want that close of a connection with my mother anymore. It's you know, we're at an arm's distance, it's the best it's probably gonna ever get again. And so that's where it just has to land right now.

SPEAKER_00 1:53:36

Fair enough. They're a package deal, so you can't have one without the other, it sounds like. Nope, you can't. Is there anything else you would like to share or want others to know?

SPEAKER_02 1:53:49

Not about my personal story necessarily, but just I really the reason I share so much of my story out there is so that other people don't feel alone and that hopefully someone who's just had their discovery can, you know, they find they stumble across me or one of these podcasts, you know, that you have or other people have, and they can, you know, connect with someone. And I just don't want people to feel alone. I've I felt so alone in the beginning and I didn't know how big this community was. And I I love where I'm at now and how the connections I've made, and that is another huge piece of the healing that I've been able to do because of the community and knowing I'm not alone.

SPEAKER_00 1:54:38

Yeah, definitely. Well, and leads right into my next question. If anyone would like to connect with you based on your story or how they relate, how can they best reach out to you?

SPEAKER_02 1:54:51

Sure. So I do have my Instagram page that's kind of dedicated to this entire journey, and it's called Journey to Me, J-O-U-R-N-E, the number two, and then M-E. So that's on Instagram. I love getting, you know, messages or even just people who, you know, who like things I post or comment because it it's validation for me just as much as it is for those people. That's probably the best way to get in touch with me. I am on Facebook also, Lori Torado, T-I-R-A-D-O, and Lori is L-O-R-I. You're welcome to reach out to me there too.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:29

So perfect. And I'll add those to the show notes. And I cannot end the episode without mentioning your one of your main talents, I should say, is Long Island tasties, which I'll also link in there. And everybody who takes a look at that, the the talent you have to make food look amazing. Oh, thank you. Edible art is what I call it. Oh, that's that it totally describes it. Edible art. Thank you. So anyway, so I'll share that on there as well. And I've seen it at Retreat a couple of times, so I've seen it personally. And the first one I saw was this massive.

SPEAKER_03 1:56:19

Oh, the grazing table. Oh, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:56:25

Yes. All right. Well, I want to thank you, Lori, so much for being on the podcast. We started talking at retreat, and you were one of the first to say, I would love to come on. And and as we've talked about before we started recording, is you've shared your story on a few other amazing podcasts. And I think diving into the the specialty of uh the mother issues that so many of us have had. And I think that's also so important for people to know that it's a trauma on top of a trauma on top of a trauma, you know, the the discovery and yeah, our mother, mother issues, mother struggles, as I like to call it.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:13

I'm so glad I got to be a part of this and chat with you and share all of this too.

SPEAKER_00 1:57:19

Yeah, well, thank you. I appreciate you. No problem. If you would like to share your story, please email me at motherslies and dna surprises at gmail.com. You can share anonymously if you prefer. I would also love to hear from you with any reviews, questions, comments, or show ideas. Thank you for being here with us where we are not alone in our struggles with our mothers.

SPEAKER_04 1:57:44

Don't be quiet, my love. You just don't want to accept the truth. The truth that you've been lying to me alone.