Myndi's Story

Before I begin I would like to share a content warning, this episode includes discussions about childhood sexual abuse which could be disturbing for some audiences.  

Myndi shares with us how she found out the “family secret” from her maternal cousin and then eventually how she became obsessed with finding out the answers to her DNA results, as so many of us do.

When Myndi breaks her no contact with her mother to try and get answers her mother’s immediate response is so telling!

Myndi’s Birth Certificate Father told her that her mother didn’t know, yet Myndi reminds him how she found out, denial runs deep for some affected by a DNA surprise, including Myndi’s BCF.

Myndi shares her first conversation with her Mother and how her story didn’t make sense or add up plus her biological Father’s version of the story. As children we only have the stories as they are told to us, and when we learn our truths we try to fit the pieces together, to try and understand our correct origin story. 

Myndi talks about how we deserve better, follow your heart, surround ourselves with people who support and love us, not judge us! Put yourself first!

Thank you Myndi for being vulnerable, open and honest with some very personal things!

Podcasts Myndi has shared her story on:

NPE Stories:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/myndis-story/id1464478802?i=1000506567252

The Secret in my DNA:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/episode-5-in-the-dark-myndis-story/id1545020186?i=1000535031685

Hiraeth Hope and Healing Retreats:

https://www.hiraethhopeandhealing.com/retreats

You can connect with Myndi in either of the following ways:

Facebook – Myndi Morrison Fitzgerald

Email – the7fitzs@yahoo.com

Phone – email me at mothersliesanddnasurprises@gmail.com and I will share it with you

Music is "Drown in your Lies" by NoxAwake via Pixabay  

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:19

Hello, I'm Stacy, the host of Mother's Lies in DNA Surprises podcast. Thank you for being here. Before I begin, I would like to share a content warning. This episode includes discussions about childhood sexual abuse, which could be disturbing for some audiences. Mindy shares with us how she found out the family secret from her maternal cousin, and then eventually how she became obsessed with finding out the answers to her DNA results, as so many of us do. When Mindy breaks her no contact with her mother to try and get answers, her mother's immediate response is so telling. Mindy's birth certificate father told her that her mother didn't know, yet Mindy reminds him how she found out. Denial runs deep for some affected by a DNA surprise, including Mindy's birth certificate father. Mindy shares her first conversation with her mother and how her story didn't make sense or add up, plus her biological father's version of the story. As children, we only have the stories as they are told to us, and when we learn our truths, we try to fit the pieces together to try and understand our correct origin story. Mindy talks about how we deserve better. Follow your heart, surround ourselves with people who support and love us, not judge us. Put yourself first. Thank you, Mindy, for being vulnerable, open, and honest with some very personal things. Well, I would like to welcome Mindy to share her story. I'm so excited to have you, Mindy. I've I guess I reached out to you to ask if you wanted to share the story. We've met at Retreat, and I love spending time with you and talking to you about our wonderful stories. I say that sarcastically. So welcome. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing with everybody.

SPEAKER_01 2:25

Well, thank you. I'm excited to have a chat with you and see you in our little Zoom call here and see where this goes. I'm excited for your new podcast that you're doing, even though it's not brand brand new anymore. But this is a nice little niche that you've carved out here.

SPEAKER_02 2:43

Yes, yeah. I think it was needed. There's a you add on top of the DNA trauma, mother trauma, andor father trauma that some people have also. But yes. Yeah. Well, tell us about your DNA surprise, how you found out, and what it's been like since learning your truth.

SPEAKER_01 3:05

Okay. So, like so many people I have met or learned about since my discovery, we a lot of us found out in 2020. And it might have been a COVID thing. I don't know, people had more time on their hands. Mine really wasn't a COVID thing necessarily, but I was talking with a cousin on the phone, a first cousin. And when we were hanging up, she said, say hi to your parents for me. And I said, Oh, gosh, I guess didn't I tell you that I don't talk to my parents anymore? And she said, No, what's going on? And so it kind of extended our conversation a little. And I just said, you know, I cut ties. She knew we had a tumultuous relationship, but I said I had cut ties like a year and a half prior. And then she just got quiet. She got really quiet and silent. And then she started kind of stumbling over her words that weren't really words. She was just like, and I'm like, what's are you okay? And she said, I have to tell you something. And I said, All right. And she said, I don't know how to tell you this. Do you want to know what I need to tell you? I'm like, yeah, whatever, whatever, yeah, you can tell me anything. I had no idea. I didn't know if it was about me, about her, right? My parents. Like, I I had no inkling whatsoever what she was going to tell me. And so after a little prodding from me, she finally said, There's a family secret that I just haven't known how to tell you, but I think you deserve to know, and now's a good time. I said, Okay, what is it? And she said, Well, the secret is that your dad isn't your dad. And in a way, you probably could have knocked me over with a feather because it came so out of love field. I had never even questioned it. Really, I mean, I guess in hindsight, there were a few things that I questioned, but I didn't know to question. So now I can look at it and go, oh yeah, that makes sense. So I kind of had a aha moment later once the truth came out. But anyway, at that moment, I was just like, what? And I said, well, wow, that would be crazy. And I said, okay, I'm gonna order an ancestry test right now. And I got my phone out and got on Amazon and ordered it that very second. And I said, I'm gonna take a test because I didn't really know anything about ancestry per se, but I knew that my uncle on my birth certificate father's side of the family, and my cousin, at least one cousin, had done Ancestry.com. So I knew they were in there. So if I took a test, I would either match with them or I wouldn't. I knew that much.

SPEAKER_03 6:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:20

So it was one way to get around having to ask anyone or do any tests because I could just take it and I'm either gonna match with them or I'm not. Even and I didn't even think about a different family showing up. I was just thinking I'm either gonna match with my uncle or I'm not gonna match with my you're gonna have an answer or you're not.

SPEAKER_02 6:38

Okay, so a side question. So this cousin called you for we were just chatting. Just chatting. So had you not said I'm estranged from my parents, would she have ever told you?

SPEAKER_01 6:55

I think eventually she would have. Maybe I don't know if I continued to have a relationship with my family. We're pretty close, so I feel like at some point she probably would have, but that definitely prodded her along to say something because she I mean, had she tell someone something like that?

SPEAKER_02 7:20

Well, exactly. And how long had she known? Has she always known? Has it just always been there?

SPEAKER_01 7:25

And she's known for quite some time, like she had known for at least probably 10-15 years. Not her whole life, but a long time. I think she said, I I don't remember if her dad told her, which is my mom's brother, or if her mom told her. I feel like her her dad, her mom told her after her dad died, and her dad died 20 years ago. So gosh, maybe it's been 20 years she's known.

SPEAKER_02 7:58

Wow. Yeah, all right. Because I was just curious when you said she called, and then it was like, Oh, so you're estranged. Here's some information. Yes, and had that not been.

SPEAKER_01 8:08

She felt then yeah, I just feel like she felt like then she's not gonna blow up my entire world because half my world is already blown up, right? Right, makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 8:18

Wow, okay, all right. So you order this test, yeah, it comes in, and you're anticipating either matching or not matching with your uncle and your cousin.

SPEAKER_01 8:29

Yeah, and I think in my head I was pretty sure that it was gonna happen because why else would my cousin say this to me? Yeah, but there's always the doubt, like, oh, maybe it's wrong. I don't know. It was kind of weird. I really was I was in limbo waiting, but I wasn't stressing about it or anything. And so it took, I don't remember how many weeks, six weeks, is it it takes forever, it seems like. And and I was getting ready to go to bed one night, it was like midnight because I stay up late, and I get a ding on my phone right as I'm crawling into bed. Of course. So I open up, I got a I open up my phone and it says, Your results are in. And I'm like, Oh, I said to my husband, here we go. And I open it up, and sure enough, no maiden name in there whatsoever. But there was two, my top two close family matches were the name Brown, which is not my name nor my maiden name. My mom's maiden, nobody that I know is named Brown. So I said, Oh my god, George, that's my husband. I said, It's true. I said it's it there, my uncle's not in here, but I have these other people, and so one of them I think said it was an uncle, or no, they at the time they said close family relative dash first cousin. So I thought that was a category. I thought that meant it could be, I thought that meant it was a first cousin, not that it could be a close family member up to a first cousin. Sure. So yeah, so because I didn't had never looked at this before, I assumed that this was a cousin. And the first one on my list that I matched closely with that it said that was my same age. He was like, I don't know, a year or two older than me. So it made sense. He would be a cousin.

SPEAKER_04 10:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:40

And the other one, I can't remember if it said the same thing or if it said he was an uncle, and he was like my parents' age, so that would make sense. So I'm like, oh my god, now what do I do? So I can't remember if I I'm sure I didn't message him that night. I think I waited till morning, or either that or I sent them a message like, hey, I'm looking for my birth father. Like I didn't, I didn't take any time to even think it through. Right. And in the morning, and I couldn't really do anything else at that point because it was midnight. And in the morning, now I'm obsessed. I need to find out my answers right now. And my cousins who were in the database that I did not match with on my dad, my birth certificate, father's side of the family, they live in Colorado and California. So they're two and three hours behind me. So I'm having to wait to reach out to them until it's a reasonable time. And I think I might have reached out to my brother first, because he's the time, same time zone. And he was just like, What are you talking about? Like he was, I think he was more surprised than I was. He's like, I don't even understand what like he thought I was speaking a foreign language. I think I don't even understand what you're saying to me. And so I sent him a screenshot of my test results. He goes, Who are those people? And I'm like, I don't know. We've never heard of them before, have we? And he's like, What this isn't happening. I'm like, Well, DNA doesn't lie, I have no idea. I'm gonna have and so now I'm texting him, I'm texting my cousins. We have all these text threads going. I text my cousins, they're like, Oh my god. And so they pull up the one that was in the ancestry. She pulled up her records or her results, and she's like, I don't see you. I'm like, Yep, I don't see you either. And they were just like, Oh my god, what are we gonna do? I'm like, I don't know, I don't know who these people are. So, anyhow, we were back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. And at some point, I guess I had messaged those two people that I matched with, and one of them, the one that was my age, got right back to me. Wow. And he was like, Well, hi. He's like, I and I had said, would you talk to me? And I gave my phone number. And he said, Of course, I'm happy to talk to any family, anybody whose family, I'm happy to talk to. I'm like, okay. And so he must have given me his number. So I call him and he says, Oh, he goes, While I was waiting for you to call, I looked at your family tree. I know your grandparents. I said, You do. Like it was shocking to me that he would know my grandparents, but it makes sense. Of course, he would know my grandparents because he knows my, I guess maybe not, but he knew my family. And I said, You do? And so, an interesting fact about my grandparents, he knew what town they grew up in or they lived in. And I said, Yeah, it's a teeny tiny town in Illinois that nobody would know who even lives near it unless they lived right there. And I said, Yeah, and he goes, and your grandfather raised chinchillas in the basement, which nobody does that. So I'm like, he did. So he goes, Yeah, I spent a lot of time there. Are my mother and your grandma? He thought they were cousins, and I'm like, Oh dear, what does this mean? I'm like, did he have so then I'm thinking it's from a different side of the family? So I'm like, could it be your your uncle? Could it be, you know, I'm like asking all these people, he goes, I don't think so. My mom was an only child, she didn't have any brothers, my dad didn't live anywhere near there. It would just make sense it's on my mom's side, and I'm like, Yeah, just because they knew my grandparents, and so anyway, we couldn't figure it out. He goes, I'm gonna ask my siblings and I'll call you back. And I said, Okay. So meanwhile, I'm back and forth with my brother and my cousins still, and I forget at one point we figured it out. I think I figured it out at the same time. My uncle, he turned out he was my uncle, he was not my cousin, the same age as you might have handled things differently if I knew it was an uncle. I kind of feel like a cousin, you're like one step removed and nobody's feelings are getting hurt, you know. But an uncle is pretty close since it's his brother. So it turns out my grandmothers were not cousins, thank goodness. They were best friends. Okay, so they were really close friends who had kids all the same ages, and then they had a late life baby who was this one that's my age. So they had three kids each, boy, boy, girl, and they grew up together. Okay, and this uncle's brother was my father, the oldest child on my paternal side was my father. And I think before we before I while he was figuring that out because he reached out to his brothers, I figured it out because I texted my mother.

SPEAKER_03 16:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 16:45

Because I wasn't getting answers fast enough. And I again, I hadn't spoken to my mom in gosh, at least a year, probably a year and a half at that point. And I just texted her and I just said, I've done a DNA test. I've learned that dad is not my who I thought he was, my father is not who I thought he was. Do you know who my dad is? And does dad know? Or do you know my father, birth father is, and does dad know? And she replied back to me, and this is so telling because it had been, like I said, a year and a half. Her, she hadn't spoken to me in all that time. Her reply to me is, Mindy, what the hell is wrong with you? I don't understand you at all. Not, what are you talking about? Or you know, nothing. What the hell is wrong with you? I don't understand you at all. And I said, Well, I did a DNA test and I sent her the screenshot of my results, and she goes, Why are they on why why are they on your DNA results? I said, I have no idea. You tell me. And so she there was a second DNA surprise on there that I didn't know at the time, is a cousin that I didn't know I had. Her brother had a child out of woodlock, and he popped up, and they knew she knew all about him, but she didn't admit it at the time. She goes, Well, that that name is her brother's friends. So she goes, I don't know why he's on there. She did know. And then in the Browns, they were friends of grandma and grandpa. And I said, Okay. She goes, I barely knew them. Like, oh, okay, well, then I guess if you don't know who they are and I don't know who they are, I'll just have to ask dad for a DNA test. And then she went radio silent. Like, there was chirp, chirp, chirping from the crickets, no more. So apparently she went running to my dad when I said that, so she could get the story out before I reached out. Only she told him that she had no idea. This came as a complete shock to her. And I had done this DNA test, and and now she's freaking out because she had no idea and she's, you know, so sorry or whatever. So my dad didn't know. He found out the same day I did. They're still married. And I was 51 when I found out, so 50 years of his life. This is what he thought. In fact, they got married when they were 19. Well, my dad was still 18 when they got married. My mom was 19, just by they were in the same class in high school, but he had a later birthday than her. And he was a very young kid in her class, so his birthday was in September. So when he went off to college, he was still 18 or 17, turned 18 his freshman year. And they broke up when he went to college. They were high school sweethearts, broke up. And when she got pregnant the summer he came back from his first year of college, they obviously had a rendezvous because he thought that I could be his child. But she also had a rendezvous with my birth father, and she wanted to be with my dad, so she to chose to tell him that he was the father and never told him there was a possibility of someone else, as far as I know. But her whole family knew, apparently. So they must have discussed it and decided that they were just gonna say it was my dad, and that was the end of the story. And of course, 50 years ago, you couldn't go to the Walgreens or the Amazon and order a DNA test.

SPEAKER_03 20:58

Right.

SPEAKER_01 20:59

So they probably and I'm sure they never even considered that could ever be a possibility. Correct.

SPEAKER_03 21:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:04

So they just chose my dad, and my dad was 18 years old, and he had to even have, I don't know why at 18, they must have had to be 19 to get married without apparent consent. So my my birth certificate father's parents, my grandparents, had to sign paperwork saying that he was allowed to get married.

unknown 21:26

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 21:27

She found out she was pregnant, had to be like July, and they got married in August. So he came home for the summer after his freshman year, single, no girlfriend, and back to college for sophomore year with a wife and a baby on the way. Yeah. So it was the fact that my dad didn't know that whole time. If I were him, I'd be quite upset. Because I mean, his whole life went on a different trajectory. Right. But he is choosing to believe that my mom didn't know. Even though I've told him the only reason I know is because her family knew. Correct.

SPEAKER_02 22:12

And so he is choosing to believe his wife. And some of it might be just for you know sanity's sake. If you're gonna stay married, you need to have some sort of narrative you can live with. But he knows that her family knew, and I assume at some point he learned how you found out before the DNA test that a cousin told you like it was known information. To me, that is a lot of proof, a lot of information, and what a fool you've been made to look like, because all of these people knew, but not you, and yet he still continues to believe his wife.

SPEAKER_01 23:01

Yeah, so my brother, my brother said he was going to my dad was on his way over to my brother's house just to work on something. And so my brother's panicking, like, how is he gonna handle this? Knowing this information and not knowing if my dad knew at that point, and so later I text my brother. I'm like, so did dad come over? And he just writes back, yeah. And I'm like, so does he know or did he know? Have he said anything? He goes, Well, he knows now. And I'm like, Oh my gosh. So I don't it's some I don't know if my mom called him when he was over there. I don't remember. But anyway, he found out that my dad knew and he said he wants to call you and talk to you. Will you answer the phone? So I said, Yeah, even though we don't talk, I'm yeah, I'll answer the phone because this is a big thing, and I'm expecting drama. Right, I'm expecting my dad to be upset. I would think he would shed a tear. Yeah, I mean, some emotion, yeah, but that wasn't the case. I answered the phone. He said, I said hello. He goes, Hi Mindy, I'm still your dad. And he just said it like, ha ha, I'm still your dad. Mom didn't know, and I said, but dad, she did know. No, she didn't. Things like this happen. It's okay. And I said, she did know. That's how I know, and so I told him, I said, Lisa told me, my cousin. And he said I said, Lisa told me because Uncle Larry told her. And he said, Well, Uncle Larry is a liar, and I said, Maybe he was. It doesn't matter if he was a liar about anything else, he obviously wasn't lying, right? You know, and he said, Well, just because his lie became the truth doesn't mean that he wasn't lying. So that was his rationalization was even though my uncle said this because he believed him to be a liar, he just got lucky on his lie that was the truth, correct. But I can't make this shit up. No, I cannot. And so that was our phone call. Oh, and I said, Okay, if that's what you want to believe. And then he said, All right, well, have a good night. And he hung up. That was our big phone call. And I just hung up like I wasn't even sad about it. I'm just like, this is once again why I'm no contact with them. Like, there's zero emotion, he could care less. I'm still your dad. Yeah, a crappy dad who doesn't talk to his daughter, and now you can't even talk to her when something this earth-shattering happens.

SPEAKER_02 26:11

Both learned this earth-shattering information, and you could bond over it, like you could come together over it, but yeah, no, yeah, that did not happen. Wow. Yeah. The fact that I I don't know how what I would call it, like the fact that he like logic and common sense went out the window, and he just accepted whatever his wife told him.

SPEAKER_01 26:49

Yep. And then later I found out because at some point during that day, my unc, my new uncle, got back to me, and I'm like, I already know Jim is my dad. You know, I've talked to my mom and my dad, and he's like, Yeah, he needs some time to process. He has to talk to his wife. You know, you have a brother, he has a couple stepkids, and he's gonna call you, but he needs a little time. So maybe in the next, you know, few days, couple weeks, he'll call you. I said, Okay. And so then it gets a little confusing in here, but my mom, I forget if my dad asked if my mom could call me also, or if my brother, I don't know, but I think the next day my mom finally calls, and it was horrendous, horrendous. We were on the phone for probably a couple hours basically screaming at whatever point at each other, and I had it on speakerphone the whole time because I always feel like now I need a validation, I need a witness because she would just like me so much. And so my husband was sitting in the room just quietly listening to it all. And at first, she's like, I didn't know. I was I went to visit, so they lived like I think it was like two hours from where my mom grew up, the birth family, my birth father's family, and my grandma was going to go visit her friend. So she said, Do you want to come with me? Because my mom was friends with their daughter. So my mom went and they stayed the night because it was a couple hours away. And my birth father was home from the Navy. He lived in California, so he had come home for the weekend or a week, I don't know how much time, but anyway, he was there when she was there. They went out to a party, and she ended up with my birth father. Only she told me all this and told me that she tried to spin a tale that he he's I think six years older than my mom. He tried to say that he took advantage of an underage girl, that he basically date rape, child molest, whatever she implied that she was underage and he was an adult and took advantage of her, and she ended up pregnant. And I said, Mom, you weren't underage. Yes, I was. I said, Mom, you were 19. No, I wasn't. Oh my god, and like we've known my whole life that you gave birth to me at 19 years old, and she was almost 20 when I was born. She got pregnant at 19 and had me at 19. No, I wasn't. I said, Mom, I was born in 1969. You were 19 years old. Was I? And she said it just like that. And I'm like, Yes, you were. So stop spinning this narrative to make me think that my dad, my birth father, raped you or whatever. And so then she skimmed over that, you know, because I didn't fall for that. Like, sometimes she would just tell stories that couldn't even be true if she wanted them to be true. Like, that couldn't be true. You can't just say you were underage when you weren't underage. So, anyway, that then she went to once I corrected her, she said, Well, we were drinking, and I never drank. And so I just had too much to drink, and then I woke up the next day and we went home, and I never thought of him again. I never spoke to him, I never saw him, and I never thought him again until now when you've brought this out. And so I, you know, I was like, whatever. I had to believe that. I didn't know not to believe it. Right. And then I'll come back to that when I tell you what I talked to my birth father, but the rest of that conversation went so horribly that by the end of it, I was screaming at her. She's yelling at me. She was so condescending, so hateful. I mean, just the words coming out of her mouth. And I just finally told her to, I said, F you and hung up the phone on her, which I never curse in front of my parents ever.

SPEAKER_04 31:52

Right.

SPEAKER_01 31:53

So for me to say that to her, it was like a huge statement. And my husband just looked at me and he goes, Well, that conversation went about as well as I thought it would go. I'm like, Yeah, it was just great, wasn't it? So anyway, I came come to find out later when I when my birth father did call me, he had no idea how I came to know this story. So he just told me what he knew. His story, yeah. And he told me basically the same thing. I went home for you know a visit, and your mom was there, and we got together, and he goes, You probably think I'm surprised to hear from you, but I'm really not because I knew you existed because your mom called me and told me she was pregnant. And I'm like, Really? Well, that's interesting. He said, Yeah, she called me and told me she was pregnant, and I offered to marry her, and she said she needed to think about it and she'd get back to me, and then she never called me back. So I and I heard she was marrying your dad, so I just assumed she realized he was the dad, and I went on with my life. So I was like, Oh, isn't that interesting? So my uncle, who's a liar, right? You know, made up this lie that became true, and you know, my mom never heard from him again, never spoke to him again, yet, oh, wait a minute, you called him, so you did know. I mean, it's just lies, more lies, frustrating, but really not surprised.

SPEAKER_02 33:44

Yeah, and I think so in hearing her story, you say her her response is you have to believe that so many of our mothers have like created this story in their minds, and you will believe me because this is what I'm saying, and obviously it works with your your birth certificate father, he believes what she says, and so she's used to telling her story and expecting everyone to believe it and not question her.

SPEAKER_01 34:20

And and when you do question her, yeah, oh boy, then there's a lot of hate and raised voices and anger because how dare you!

SPEAKER_02 34:32

Yeah, what is wrong with you? Yeah, yeah, what is wrong with you? Yeah, what is wrong with you? Wow, okay. So now I am really curious. So my next question is the question itself is what is your what was your relationship like with your mother before your DNA discovery? So you've shared that you've were not no contact with her for a year or more. So I'm curious to hear what led up to you going no contact before this discovery.

SPEAKER_01 35:09

Okay, so this is deep, but I've been getting used to talking about it because I've been kind of forced to, and it's fine because I'm glad that all the truths are out there. So I have always had a tumultuous relationship with my parents. I was always in trouble, I was always pushing the envelope, um, you know, back and forth. I'm just every time my mom would call, I was just stomachache, like dreaded feeling, you know, just I just never felt comfortable walking on eggshells, all the things. But I wanted to keep our family together because family is important to me. And by the time I had kids, I wanted them to have grandparents. So I was always swallowing the hurt, swallowing the hurt. And as I always said, I just had a pile. I was just shoving all the hurts on this huge mound, and the pile just kept growing and growing, but I didn't want it to affect my children, so I just took it all until I became an adult and my children grew up. Then I knew I could tell my truth to them, and I started pulling away from my parents. And I'll tell you what the truth is. I'm trying to figure out how I want to say this. So I'll tell you what the truth is as I tell the story of what was my last straw. So my last straw was my parents are very, very, very, very political. And you either believe what they believe, or they will fight you tooth and nail if you try to even just have a discussion with them about politics that doesn't align with their beliefs. Therefore, I am very non-political because they've tainted me to not want to ever have that kind of relationship with people. I mean, they would fight with friends, family, it didn't matter to them. They just would fight you. So my mom was also on Facebook a lot, and she had put a post out one day, and it was at the time that if you remember, Judge Kavanaugh was running for office, and this woman had accused him of molesting her or something, and I was abused as a child, not by my parents, but by their friend. They knew this. It went on for years. Obviously, that's painful. Obviously it was something I had to work through, but they never turned him in, and he never got prosecuted for it, and so he's out there walking a free man. So when Judge Kavanaugh got accused by a woman who never prosecuted him and he never got found guilty of doing this to her, I can relate because if my abuser ever went to run for office, I could have come out and said, hey, he abused me as a child, and people would have called me a liar. So my mom, being so political, she's Republican, Judge Kavanaugh's Republican, this woman was a Democrat, therefore she's a liar. So my mom went on this rant about how dare this woman accuse this wonderful man who she'd never met. He's just a Republican, right? But he's a wonderful man because he's a Republican. And this woman, this evil woman, you know, just on and on and on. And I'm like, oh my God, I took it so personally. Yeah, of course. But I didn't say anything. But then my friends and family who knew my story that knew my mom started reaching out and were like, oh my God, what is wrong with your mother? I'm like, okay, it's not just me. That was pretty awful, right? Like, and they're like, Yes, and including my daughter. So my daughter was 19 at the time, my youngest was 18. So I had just recently told them, all my kids, that I had been abused as a child, and that I just felt like they were old enough to accept it, you know, not accept it, but just hear it and, you know, just know what happened to me, kind of explains why I'm a little neurotic about some things and and all of that stuff. And I told them that because of the way my parents handled it, I had a lot of resentment and hurt feelings about it and other things that have happened over the years with them. I was pulling away. And I said, But you guys are old enough now, you have your own relationship with your grandparents. I'm just stepping back. I'm not, I didn't go no contact at that point. I was just kind of putting up boundaries with them. So I wasn't just running over to their house for every barbecue, and I was kind of distancing myself, and I just wanted them to know why I was doing it. So my daughter even reached out and she's like, What is wrong with grandma? Did you see what she posted? Like, she even could relate. Yeah, and she was 19. And I'm like, Yeah, I know this is crazy to me. So I reached out to my mother and I said, Mom, you understand, like that woman is me. We don't know who's lying. One of them is lying, right? But we can't just assume it's her because there's no evidence. Nobody has evidence when these things happen, or rarely, rarely, yeah. Like this is very hurtful to me. And she just doubled down.

SPEAKER_03 41:20

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 41:21

And she tried to justify herself, and she tried and just take the stupid post down. Like, yeah, why do you have to double down? Just realize I've said to you that hurt me. Yes, and then and she goes, Well, you misinterpreted my you misinterpreted my point. Yeah, and I'm like, I can misinterpret it whatever, it's still very hurtful. Like, just because she's a democrat doesn't mean that she's that she's a liar. Yeah, yeah, like one of them is lying. And I if it's her, shame on her. Yes, but if it's him, you can't just assume it's not him because he's a Republican. Like, that's so crazy. And I could be that person, so she refused to back down. And I just said, I can't do this anymore. And at this point, we were texting, and I'm so thankful I have those texts because every time I start to question myself, I just go back and read them. And I'm like, nope, that's exactly how I remember it. And I just said, Can you just please say you're sorry to me? Just tell me you're sorry for saying that. And then we need to go to counseling. If we're gonna fix our relationship, we need some help because I had been trying for 50 years and it wasn't working the way we were doing it. And she told me no to both things. She kept re she would reply, I'm sorry for everything I've ever done to hurt you. I said, No, that's not what I need to hear. I need to hear, I'm sorry for that Facebook post. That's all I'm asking. I'm not, I'm not sorry. You don't need to say you're sorry for my whole life. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:05

Just say you're sorry for that Facebook post. She still to this day has not said she's sorry for that Facebook post. And they said they refused to go to counseling. So I said, then I'm done. I'm not doing this anymore. I can't take it anymore. It's too hurtful. And I'm walking away. But just so you know, it's gonna have consequences.

SPEAKER_03 43:27

Right.

SPEAKER_01 43:28

It's not just gonna affect me and you, it's going to reach further to my kids and who knows who else. And they said, I'm not, you can't make me do that. You can't make me do anything, and I'm not doing it. I said, Okay, then I'm gone. Bye.

unknown 43:44

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 43:45

And that was in, I think it was in November of that year. And then in December, my kids who lived out of state came home for Christmas, were coming home for Christmas, and she knew they were coming home somehow, maybe from my Brother, I don't remember. Or maybe the kids told her, I don't know. And she starts a group chat with all my kids and me and my husband. So when are we all getting together for Christmas?

SPEAKER_02 44:13

Oh my God.

SPEAKER_01 44:15

And I just kept ignoring her and she kept asking. And I think my husband maybe felt bad and like said it wasn't happening. I don't remember. But I and my kids start coming to me, Mom, why is grandma asking us this? I'm like, I don't know, guys. I'm sorry. You know, like, so I finally I did a sidebar to my mom text on our own, and I said, please stop group texting with my kids. It's upsetting them, it's upsetting me. You know, we're not getting together with Christmas. When I said I was done, that's done. I'm not gonna there's that means no Christmas, no Easter, no birthday. Like, we're not gonna just pretend on the holidays. No, done is done. If you're not willing to say you're sorry to me and won't go to therapy to work on our relationship, then I'm done. And so that really got her angry. Don't you dare tell me I can't talk to my grandchildren. I didn't say you can't talk to your grandchildren. I asked you to stop group texting with me and your grandchildren, asking when we're coming to Christmas. Yeah. So she's always playing, twisting it like we're into something it's not. That's not what I said. I'm not, and she gets so angry, like anyone ever just questions her. So, anyhow, my kids at that point had thought they walked on water with my parents. So each one of them, not the oldest one, he's never spoken to them to this day. They've tried really hard to get a hold of him. He won't contact, he won't talk to them. The other ones individually, and I didn't know until afterwards, reached out thinking, well, certainly if they asked, right, grandma and grandpa would do it. And each one of them was told the same thing I was told, no, not interested. And they were very offended, and so they've chosen to walk away, and somehow that's become my fault. So now my parents not only won't say sorry and work on our relationship, but now I've also turned their grandchildren against them. Of course, I promise you, I did not turn your grandchildren away against you. They chose to not be part of that toxic lifestyle anymore. They they did that, and they chose their mother. Yeah, how narcissistic of them to think that my children, if they were asked to choose a side, yeah, adult children would choose their grandparents over their mother. Yeah, now nobody asked them to choose anything, right? Right, but if they were, they're gonna choose their mother unless I've done something crazy, right? And all I did was say, please say I'm sorry. Yeah, so it's gotten uglier.

SPEAKER_02 47:23

I've probably have said this on every episode, but it never ceases to shock me as a mother myself that a mother call it pride, their in my case, my mom's reputation, which is hilarious because there was no reputation per se. But like these things are so much more important to them than their children and children and grandchildren. Like, I can't imagine how messed up in the head, narcissistic, whatever we want to call it. There still has to be this. I'm not a psychiatrist, therapist, any of it, but there has to be a tiny little spot in their brain where they're like, God, I really don't want to lose my children. I really don't want to like I I it always flabbergasted me. Like, I don't understand this choice, and I can relate to some of that because I also asked my mother, in order to fix this, we need you need to come to therapy with me. And she had every excuse in the book and and hasn't and would never, and I knew it before I mentioned it, but like you, it was like, all right, I'm willing to consider it, yeah, but you have to put in the work, and then yeah, yeah, and then to have you who was abused as a child, who completely related with that victim. Again, we have to assume it's the truth, but we know that it potentially wasn't, and so you being very open and vulnerable with your mom saying, Hey mom, this this was me, this could have been me. Yeah, it was me, and yet still have no compassion or empathy, or wow, I didn't think of it that way. Like there was nothing from yeah, zero.

SPEAKER_01 49:39

So they it was funny because that same visit that Christmas that my mom was group texting about when my kids said they weren't coming to Christmas because she wouldn't do therapy or they wouldn't do a therapy session, a week went by where she was had her heels dug in, and then their trip was coming up like let's say the following week, and all of a sudden I get a text from her. Dad and I will go to therapy today, we can do it tomorrow. And I'm like, Well, great. I don't think that there'll be a therapist that's free tomorrow, but you know, I'll check. Yeah, and so I I checked and we could go the following week. I don't remember. So they were quickly trying to get an appointment in so we would have Christmas. Oh that was the only reason. Yeah, yeah. So we did not do Christmas, but I think I think we got the therapy session in before the kids came home still, because they thought there would be a hope that they we would have Christmas. We would do just one.

SPEAKER_03 50:45

So we had one session, okay. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 50:47

Once they thought if we went one time, yeah, but then they were done, they've tried. I know that was gonna be their excuse. They would get us into the then they could have Christmas. So my husband and I, and my mom and dad met with a therapist, and I went in thinking my mom was gonna cry the whole time because she's over the top emotional. So I thought she was gonna play victim and be crying the whole time and just be like, oh my gosh. And then my dad is the jokester. So I thought my dad's gonna laugh his whole way through this session. I had no idea how it was gonna go, but that's their personalities.

SPEAKER_03 51:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:25

So the therapist brought my parents in first, and then brought George and I in. When we walked in that door, you could feel the anger and the hatred in that room. They were not crying and laughing, they were furious, furious, and they just could not, and they're furious at me because they're about the grandchildren, because they think I've turned the grandchildren. They never once said they were mad that I'm out of their lives, care less that I'm out of their lives, but they were angry about the grandchildren. And my mom at one point, they started talking. The therapist was talking about my abuse, because I guess we must have been talking about the Facebook page or something, my mom's post. And my mom was so annoyed with her that she threw her aunt hands down to her side, slunk down in her seat, and threw her head back and goes, When is she gonna get over that? Oh my god. Yes, and I'm sitting there. I thought, I am in La La Land. Like this woman, how dare she? Like, she's supposed to be my mother. Isn't she over this yet? Really? No, I'm not over it yet. I probably will never be over it. Not enough that you can make statements like you did like that. Like, no, am I over it living my life? Yes, I'm not dwelling on the abuse I had as a child, but when you say something like you did, that's gonna hit a nerve. And when am I gonna get over it? Like, gosh, it was such a horrible one therapy session.

SPEAKER_02 53:21

I can't even imagine. And the fact that any human, let alone your mother, that that is the response to that says everything you need to know about them.

SPEAKER_01 53:36

I yeah, I uh and that's why I feel like now I just feel like they are they I'm an orphan. Yeah, so I feel like I have four living parents because I have my birth father, his wife, my dad, and not one of them want anything to do with me. So I'm like an orphan with four living parents, right? It's so bizarre, but because of that, I feel like I've mourned them, so I don't even really like I'm not even upset talking about it, I'm not crying because I have I don't have any emotions about them anymore at all. But yeah, I just am numb to them.

SPEAKER_02 54:17

I would like to think that's because you've done a lot of work. Oh yeah, I still go to therapy, yeah, yeah. I do too, and I think that's important to say because personally, I have siblings who despise my mother, have zero relationship with my mother for their own reasons, and they're both very angry and very bitter, and to this day we disagree on a lot of things, and I'm to a point where I am the same thing that I know that I did the best I could, and when they pass, I'm okay, I'm at peace with it. Whereas my sisters are very angry, and I told them just this weekend when we were together, I said, when when mom passes, that will not go away, it's not just magically gonna disappear your anger and bitterness. I said, I have done a lot of work, and it wasn't easy, and but I'm I'm in a good place, and so same. I think, like you said, having lessened that emotion doesn't just happen, and we can anybody can say it, but yeah, until you've done the work, you're fooling yourself and you're fooling nobody else because we all know that it it boils up some some other way. Well, I first I want to say I am sorry that your mom dismissed that that alone, just the childhood sexual abuse. And I think for so many of us who can relate to that, it never goes away.

SPEAKER_01 55:59

Like you said, it doesn't rule our lives, but it's always there, and to have your mother dismiss it like that is absolutely disgusting, like it's mind-boggling, absolutely mind-boggling, and that I will say I have made a lot of mistakes with my children growing up, of course, but I can pretty confidently say that they all know that they could do anything, and I've got their back, like they know that there is nothing they could do that would make me not love them and work to be in their lives ever. Yeah, I don't care what it is. I might not like everything, yeah, but I love them unconditionally, yeah, and I feel like I was loved if I was even loved conditionally, yeah. As long as I was playing their game and by their rules and not making too much noise, then they showed me love.

SPEAKER_03 57:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:01

And I even hesitate to even say that, but they would I would even say they would tolerate me, but I hope they were doing more than tolerating me, but I don't even know at this point.

SPEAKER_04 57:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:14

But it had conditions, I couldn't question them, I couldn't have my own feelings. At 50 years old, I still felt like I was a child. Anytime I tried to have a conversation with them, like I wasn't allowed to have my own opinions. So yeah. Hence the reason I just didn't want to hear the phone ringing, right? You know, yeah, and I'm the oldest child, obviously. They got married because of me. I have a younger brother, and because I'm the oldest, anytime there was a difficult conversation that needed to be had, I was the elected one, and then it would go so horribly because they treated me like a child. So, you know, you can't ever try to give advice or have an opinion on something that wasn't theirs. Ever.

SPEAKER_02 58:08

Does your brother still have a relationship with your parents?

SPEAKER_01 58:14

A very close relationship with them. And he he's like, if you want to say exact opposite of me, like he's so dependent on them, he has his own family, but he's so enmeshed in their lives that he can't even fathom something like this happening because he would if he if he found out he was an NPE, he would be devastated. So therefore, if that were to ever be the case for him, he would just rather not know because he doesn't want to have any thoughts in his head or any any reason to not be so tight with my parents. He doesn't want to think of any negativity. Yeah, it's interesting. How is your relationship with your brother? It's fine. I I feel like I feel like sometimes it's strained, and I don't even know strained is the right word. It makes me sad that he doesn't have my back a little more. Like I don't want him to choose sides. I know how close he is to my parents, that's fine. But he doesn't want to hear my side of things, he just would rather not talk about it at all. And so I just sometimes I just want to talk to my brother about it. He's the only one who is growing up in that house with me. Right. I would I just want to talk to him about it and have him be like, I'm sorry, Mindy, or yeah, I remember that happening, or this really sucks, or you know, I mean he says that, but he listens, I know he listens to my parents because he'll say stuff that I know came from them that isn't accurate. But he doesn't, I think he's afraid to hear my side because it would be negative about our parents, and so he doesn't want to believe anything negative. So it puts that kind of puts a strain on it because I just wish I could talk to him about it, but he doesn't want to talk about it.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:38

So I would because that I believe would make you feel guarded, like you can't be completely open and honest with him. Yep, because one, I wouldn't want my conversations and feelings to get back to my parents if he's going back and talking to them about it, and you can't or don't get from him, like you said, that open, honest relatability or whatever it might be because he is so enmeshed with his parents.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:13

Yeah. And he has two boys, and they've both graduated high school since I they're younger than my kids. So they both graduated since my no contact, and I didn't go to either of their graduations, which I live in North Carolina and they live in Indiana, so it would have been a long, it's not like I just didn't go down the street. I mean, it would have been a big trip. But when the first one graduated, I really struggled because I didn't want to go and make the graduation be about me. Right.

unknown 1:01:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:48

So I didn't want to go and have my parents trying to talk to me and me trying to get away from them and have any drama and take the day off of my nephew. Yeah. And so I talked about, I did talk about that with my brother, and he was like, oh, thank God. Because he would have been, I would have been fine just walking away from my parents all night long. But my brother would have been a nervous wreck and just beside himself the whole day. Wait so he was so relieved to know that I was okay with not coming for himself for his comfort. Yeah, yes. And so I said, if he wants me to come, I'll come because I am fine. But if he would rather, why don't I buy him a plane ticket to come visit me and our kids since we live somewhere fun, right? And you know, we can make a little vacation for him and have it be all about him and not worry about his day being about me. Right. And so that's what we did. Oh yeah. So then I I got out without having to see my my mom's side of the family, and and then I did the same thing for my next nephew, and he didn't have any time in his. He's a and he's a kid in drama, he's in the arts, and so he had plays and he has all kinds of things. He's very talented, and he didn't have time to come here, but I made a different trip to see him and just go to dinner with him outside of graduation, and I let him to choose that too. I'm like, you tell me what do you prefer? I'll come to your graduation, but I don't want to make it about me. So if you want me to come, I can come this day and we can go do our thing. And so he chose that too, and that was fine by me.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:42

Yeah, perfect. Because you're still keeping that those connections, which is important without putting anybody in a bad situation, which I think is respectful. Trying, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:55

I'm sure they'll come a day. Like my the only time I've had to see them in these eight years or whatever it's been, was my grandmother on my dad's side died, and I was very, very close to her. And I'm so very sad that she never got to know the truth, and it wouldn't have changed anything. I know she loved me very much, and she would have maybe been mad at my mom, but other than that, I know she wouldn't have changed anything because I got to be in her life because of my mom's lie. Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:34

But by the time I found out she was in her 90s, she had dementia, like there was no way we were telling her. Right. So when she passed away in I think it was November of 2020, I had known for you know six months at that point. But she didn't know, so she passed away, and it because it was COVID, you still couldn't have a funeral.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:00

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:00

You could do family, but you couldn't do ex you know, big gatherings. But we drove back to Illinois for her little family funeral, and my mom tried to make take advantage of me being there, and so we got there and I was it's it's upsetting to me because I was so sad about my grandma, and the day became stressful because I was trying, because my parents couldn't just let me be there and grieve my grandma.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:39

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:40

They were trying to talk to me, they're trying to, you know, use that time that I'm in front of them instead of just letting me grieve my grandma. So I feel like I missed out on that moment. But my mom came up and tapped me on the shoulder because I was in front of her, standing there talking to somebody. And I turned around and I just looked at her and she goes, Can I have a hug? Oh my God. And I just took a step back and I just shook my head at her and said, No. And then she got annoyed and was like, like, did a huff and puff and like turned and stormed off. And my nephew saw that. And I don't even remember, I don't even think my nephews knew at that point. No, they definitely didn't know at that point. And so I'm just like, grow, just grow up. Like, why are you trying? Why would I hug you? Right. Because you know you can't have a hug. For everyone else to see. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then my dad did the same thing. He he didn't, although he didn't tap me on the shoulder and ask me, he came up and sneak attacked me from behind and put his arm around me to give me a hug when I didn't know he was coming. And so I just leaned away from him, like, no, don't do that. So that's why I don't want to be around them because then they try to take advantage of the moment. Like I'm just going to be like, oh, okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:04

We're all good now. No, we're not good. You've said no, you're not willing to work on our relationship. So obsession does not count as not count as working on it.

unknown 1:07:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:19

No. And especially one counseling session that was so horrible. So horrible. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:28

So leads me to my next question. What have you done to make sure you are taking care of yourself through all of this? I know we talked about that you're you are in therapy and have been.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:43

Yeah. So I feel like I went back to therapy. I've obviously done a lot of therapy for the abuse and stuff through the years. And then I got sick in 2020, 12, and I have chronic neurological Lyme disease, and my kids had a lot of trauma with health issues growing when they're we're growing up. So I've had a lot of trauma in my life, like serious things that have given me PTSD. And so the Lyme disease was very traumatic. I was bedridden, thought I was, I mean, I was at death's door for a while and got better, crawled out of that, but still have lingering symptoms. And I just think Lyme is just with you forever. But I thought maybe if I can get all of this trauma dealt with, you know, the body keeps the score. Yeah. So if I go back to therapy and work on all of this, maybe I can find some relief finally with all of my symptoms. And they're still there. So it's not, but I still have work to do. So I don't know. I just I went with my list. I I made a list of all the traumas that I've had happen to me, the big ones.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:05

And I read it to my therapist. She was a new therapist. And I because sometimes I would go to therapy and wouldn't say all the things. Yeah. You know, because they're hard to talk about. Yeah. And if they if they don't know, they can't help you. Absolutely. So I was brave. Good for you. And I wrote them all down and I read them to her and I told her that that's why I was doing it. And so she's been great, like making me address all these things. So I'm hoping that eventually maybe some of the lingering effects of my Lyme disease will work itself out with this trauma therapy. That would be so I do that. And then I also highly, highly recommend some retreats. So, like we met at the Hierith Hope and Healing retreat. I've been to many of them. I don't even know now, probably seven or eight of them, maybe. But they are just truly invaluable, I think. The people we meet, the therapy we do while we're there, the way we stay in touch afterwards, everyone just gets it. You don't have to explain yourself. It's just I think that is very important.

unknown 1:10:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:26

And I would love to find some other ones or but I just keep going back to high riths because I've just met so many wonderful people that I now consider great friends. That it's just so comforting to go to these and meet more each time because there's always new people showing up. But they truly help you get through it when you can be with like people like you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:57

I try and describe it to people, and especially like people who've known me for years. The thought of me going to, and for me, I have to fly to go everywhere. So every retreat I've gone to, I've had to fly. So it's an intentional fly to a strange place. And I remember the first time I went, I knew nobody. I had communicated through Facebook with Carmen and a couple other people, but it's terrifying to go and imagine sleeping at a place where you know nobody. And in reality, you don't know anybody with roommates, with roommates, you're sick bedrooms, you're sharing bathrooms, you're you're know you're going to these sessions. And as a former non-crier, like I would never cry. And I described to people, I walked into that house, and my first one was in Arizona. And the feeling I had when I walked in was it's immediate, and I'm not exaggerating. For an introvert like myself, I've immediately felt understood. I mean, that's the only thing I can describe it as. Yeah, that you in this community you all get it. You don't have to explain why you cried when you saw new families post that made you think of something, like whatever it might be. Like it's it's everybody gets it, and you just don't have to explain anything. And I agree the bonds that you make with people. I've got some of my best friends are in the community, and I it's worth every penny. And I joke with my husband when I when I go, and I've tried to do just one a year because it is such a commitment with buying and stuffing. I try just one that it's worth every dollar the therapy, the sessions. I call them therapy sessions. Some of them are legitimate therapists and psychiatrist or psychologist and art therapy and all of these things, it is worth that alone. And yeah, yeah, I think until you've experienced it, it it's hard to explain, but trust us, trust us, it's worth it. If it's not high-rith, it's well, whatever it might be.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:36

Yeah, yeah, wherever you can find. But my first one, you said you had communicated with someone, one person, you know, like whatever on Facebook messages, Facebook or wherever. I knew nobody. Oh my god. I had not spoken. I mean, and by the time I got there, they were in the middle of having dinner. Oh so I had to walk in while all the people are sitting around chatting, having dinner, and there I am. I'm like, I was like a deer in the headlights. I didn't know what I was doing, I was so awkward. I'm like, hi, you know, but it was fine with within minutes. Yeah, you know, you just fit right in, and it was wonderful because obviously I've been back seven, eight times now.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:19

Well, and speaking of, I broke my own rule and I am going to Cape Cod, so I'll get to see you there, correct? Yeah, I did get to see you in April too. But yeah, I'm really looking forward to it. Because you're right. Every retreat I've gone to has some similar some people that have been to others that I've seen and I've gotten to know, and there's always new people. And even the people who are returning, like the in April, I sat down and talked to someone for four hours that I didn't get much time with the April before. And so this time you I got to know someone else deeper, and that connection is unlike anything else. So yeah, I think you're right.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:04

That yeah, you never know who you're going to uh relate to like that. But there's I mean, there's not been anyone or many that I haven't related to at all. I don't think. I mean, we all relate to each other in some way, and then some of us just if we just have a minute to get a little deeper, we just can talk for hours, like you said. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:28

And we do therapies, yeah, and we do fun things, and that also helps bond people, and it's not all deep stuff, it's we have a blast, yeah, playing games and swimming and the beach and whatever it might be. Yeah, definitely. Very helpful, very helpful. What advice would you give to others who are struggling with their mothers?

SPEAKER_01 1:15:55

So I hear you ask this question a lot, and I'm always like, oh my gosh, I always get that knot in my stomach every time I hear you ask someone. And no, it's a good question because it makes you reflect and think. I guess I will go from my experience of how I said I had that pile that I just kept throwing stuff on, and I was sacrificing my own feelings and my own healing and my own health to try to make try so hard to make this relationship with my parents work. You should not have to try that hard with your parents, with your mother, especially. So I guess I would my advice would be to follow your heart. Like, don't wait as long as I did, because there's so many years. I mean, don't throw the towel in immediately, you know, like try, but if you've tried everything you can, if someone is being that hurtful to you and that toxic in your life, whether they're your mother, your friend, a neighbor, whoever that might be, they don't deserve a place in your life. And so, as hard as it is to even comprehend walking away from your family, if they're that hurtful to you, they don't deserve to have you. So I had to learn that. It was okay to put myself first. And I don't regret, I guess, taking so long because I did give my kids that sense of security with that extended family there, you know, through their childhood. But I'm sad that they had to learn the reality that not all people are good people and well-intentioned. It was a hard lesson for them. So I don't know. I I go back and forth, like should I have done it sooner? Maybe it would have saved some of that heartache from them. But I can't control how they are. All I could do at this point was just do what was best for me. So I would just say follow your heart. I love that.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:18

Well, and I think as you were contemplating how to answer this question, I think, especially for me, it's easier for me to give advice to others than to myself. And my therapist says it all the time. If your daughter was in this situation, what would you want her to know? And I'm like, well, that's easy. I can tell her that she deserves better. But when it's ourselves, it's harder. And and I think you're right, like if you had done it quicker, would you have questioned maybe how you handled things? And this way, when you take longer, you're not throwing in the towel too soon, you're not giving up you you you proven to yourself that you were you tried, you worked hard, yeah, and you set up boundaries, and they still couldn't agree to them or want to participate in them. And yeah, I think that speaks volumes that you didn't.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:18

Well, and it was just so heinous, like yeah, it they made it easy, unfortunately. Yeah, they made that last straw was an easy straw to break the camel's back. Yeah, nobody I had a friend from high school come visit me a couple years ago, a couple summers ago. He was here and he grew up with me, so he or at least through high school, and so he knew my parents very well, and my my brother, and he's like, I need to know what happened, like, how can you not talk with your parents? So I said, All right, we we're gonna need drinks for this one because there's a lot I'm gonna have to fill you in on. So I told him the truth, I told him everything that happened, and he but before I started, he goes, Mindy, I'm just gonna tell you, I've I've started going to church. He goes, and I am a big believer in forgiveness, so I'm gonna respect you, but I just want you to know I'm going to promote forgiveness and families first. And I said, Okay, I can respect that. And then I told the story, and I didn't even get to the end. And there's so many details that we haven't had time to get into that are even more horrendous than what I've said, and we didn't even get to the end, and he just interrupted me. He goes, Can I just tell you, forget everything I said? I would never speak to them again. Like, what that's that was how yeah, he was just like, Oh my god, like what is wrong with them? I'm like, I I don't know, I don't know, I don't understand it. Don't know. So yeah, that it actually made me feel good. I'm like, thank you. Like he was all about forgiveness, and I am too, like to an extent, but when you try, and I truly don't feel like I was asking for too much. I asked for a I'm sorry for one specific thing, not my whole life, right? Right, one thing you did that hurt me. Yeah, just say you're sorry I hurt you and work on our relationship. That's it, yeah. And that was too much, that was too big of an ask.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:27

Yeah, apparently. As we know, and obviously my mother isn't either, but they're not diagnosed narcissists because a narcissist would never go to a therapy sessions beyond one, maybe that the classic sign for a narcissist is they would never apologize. So yeah, and and that's my mother also. Like I've begged her to say she's sorry, and you know, for her it was, I'm sorry, I was the worst mother in the whole world, you know, that type of thing. And yes, exactly. Give her helpful advice. I'm like, mom, just say I'm sorry, sorry, and then stop, like just end it there, just don't continue on.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:11

I do it. Same. Yep. I literally said that in my text messages back and forth. I'm like, all I need to hear is I'm sorry I hurt you, period. Period. And then she'd write back, I'm sorry for everything I've ever done to hurt you in your entire life. No, no, that's not what I'm asking for.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:29

Yeah, it's not an apology. That is not, and they so anyway, so yeah, I say that because obviously they're not it's not worth it for them, they don't see the value in it, and it's sad that a political post was not. I I hope it was worth it for them, right? That they that that was more important than their daughter's feelings. Again, not even related to the politics of it, it was the ethics of it, and she still couldn't understand it. I'm I'm so sorry. So, my next question, I'm gonna I'm gonna take a piece of it out because I don't want to ask about it as far as your mother goes, but you kind of alluded to it a little bit that you don't have a relationship with your biological father in his wife. So, what is next as far as your newfound family? Do you have a relationship with your cousin, the uh uncle? What what it was a cu an uncle? Anyone on the paternal side?

SPEAKER_01 1:23:46

A little bit, but that uncle who when I first reached out to me said, Oh, of course, I'm always willing to meet new family. He turned against me real quick. The minute he found out that I was his brother's daughter, he had one more phone conversation with me, and he was cold that time and just not nice, and said that they didn't have time for me and they weren't willing to make time for me. I don't know. He just he became a different person, and I I hung up, I was crying. I was like, I could not believe how cold he was to me and just mean. And and then after my first conversation, the only conversation with my father, he told me he would like to have more conversations. But then that's when I had that conversation with my uncle, and my uncle's words that he said to me were similar to words my father used. So then I realized that they were, and but my father had said that it came from his wife, like that was his hesitation. But then my uncle was using, so anyway, I I figured out real quick that they both decided they didn't have time for me and they didn't want a relationship. So I had been, I had been sending texts to my birth father. I have a son in the army, so I sent him a video of my son had sent me of some army training he was doing because my father was in the navy. I thought he'd kind of like to see his grandchild doing that. And my one of the kids graduated college. I sent a picture and there was never any like, not oh, thanks, not not a word. He didn't even reply to my messages, so that's why I reached out to my uncle and said, you know, what's going on? He said he wanted to talk to me, but he's not. And that's when he told me that they didn't have time for me. And so I sent one more message to my birth father. I'm like, uh, you know, all I wanted was to get to know you. I don't need anything from you. I'm not a child, I don't need child support, I don't need college tuition. I have a family of my own, but obviously that's not what you want. And, you know, whatever, have a good life. And he's never reached out to me. I've asked, I've I asked him if I could just send him letters just to make myself feel better, like tell him about my life. And I also realized that in that first conversation, the only conversation we had, he didn't ask me one question. All he did was tell me his life story, which was nice to know like where he grew up and went to college and all the things. But he never asked me anything about when I got married, what my kids were like, nothing, what was I like as a kid? Like, there was no inquiry about my life at all. So he is not interested. But his sister, I do speak to sometimes, his my aunt and one of her children, two of them. One one I've spoken to and met, and then another one of her kids friended me on Facebook, but we haven't had any communications, so I feel like we're just lurking each other's lives. That's fine. And then I have a brother that I didn't know about. My father had one kid with his now wife, and but he's 20 years younger than me. Sure. So he's just a couple years older than my older child. So he's like he could be my child, yeah. But he's open to meeting me, but he lives in Montana, so at some point, you know me, I am a traveler, so I will get to Montana. I will meet him, and he said maybe he'll get to North Carolina first. Yeah. So I'm looking forward to the day we make that happen. Yeah, but it's just kind of From afar at this point, and nothing, I don't I don't anticipate anything with my father, he's not interested. It's very sad. I was actually, I say it's very sad, and it is sad, but then at the same time, I'm like, if that's the type of person he is, I don't want him in my life because he's not a very nice person.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:21

Yeah, absolutely. If he's willing to it, and what I find interesting is I anticipated you saying it was slow to begin with, but it's you know, we're slowly working on it, because he wasn't surprised that you were his daughter, so it's not like he's denying it or said nope, not possible. He he knew it was a possibility, he said he would have married her, and yep, the families knew each other, like and he wasn't married to his wife, he wasn't married at the time, so it's not like there was betrayal or on his end, anyway.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:06

No, he I was like 20 years old when he got together with his wife, like yeah, no, there was no, I just don't get it. I don't know, I have no idea. He's not he told me his wife said that they're getting older and they don't know how many years they have left, so they don't want to waste any time on me. Oh hell, but then in the words that my right terrible, but then the words that my uncle used made me realize that was my father's wishes, and I think he was trying to shove it off on his wife, yeah, yeah, easy, but he really had those same feelings, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:48

Has your new aunt I alluded to what may be going on, like why is she surprised that he has acted this way? Is there anything from that?

SPEAKER_01 1:30:05

Yeah, she was surprised. She's like, I don't understand it, she feels bad, yeah. But you know, they live so far apart too, and he's lived he's lived far away for many, many years, but my brother warned me. He said, Don't expect a lot from him because he just doesn't have it in him. Oh, interesting, and apparently, yeah, he said that there's just no feelings there, so yeah, it is interesting.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:35

Well, and I guess there is some comfort in that, that it wasn't just you, like you he was raised by his father and he sees him for what he is, but that doesn't make it. I I don't think it makes it easier, it just gives some oh okay, it is him. But as your biological father, we want to know and learn as much as we can, and yeah, to be shut out like that is uh I never can I will never understand why people act the way they do.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:07

No, I mean it was it was heart-wrenching for sure, because I just never it all happens so fast, you know, and then I just I know how I am, and I sometimes get in a bad habit of just thinking everyone else is gonna act how I act. Yeah, yeah, you know how you just assume, yeah, yeah, and so I just thought he'd be like, Oh, great, I mean it'd be different if there was an affair or something that you you're trying to hide. That wasn't the case, right? So, what threat am I? Right, exactly. I am no threat, so I just assumed I'd pop in and they'd be like, Welcome, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:31:46

You know, come over. Well, and as you know, as adults, it is hard to build relationships because everybody is busy. In their case, they're getting older, and and it takes work, but it takes I am also very curious by nature, so I just assume everybody's curious and would want to learn about each other and to not is especially knowing that you're flesh and blood, like and there's no back child support that needs to be paid or college tuition. It's just no man, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:22

That just I mean, even when I sent a picture of his my daughter and said, Look at your beautiful granddaughter graduated college yesterday or whatever, and a picture of her in her cap and gown, no reply. Like, what makes no sense? Why not just write back, oh she's beautiful? Anything, anything, acknowledgement, congratulations, yeah. Yeah, no, not even worth a reply.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:48

Crazy. It is crazy. Is there anything else you would like to share or want others to know?

SPEAKER_01 1:32:59

No, I just think we all need to get through it the way that is comfortable for us and to not let people judge us or not let it bother us, you know. I had some of my mom's family judge me on how I was reacting to my news of being lied to for 50 years and not and judging me very badly, and so I just walked away from them too. I'm like, I I feel like I'm lost everyone, but I deserve better. Like, I don't need you guys to choose sides, but how about somebody just say, Wow, are you okay? That would have been nice, yeah, instead of judging me for how I was reacting. And I'm sorry I didn't act the way you thought I should react.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:49

And until you're in that position to know what it's like to be to find out you've been lied to your entire life, not about oh, you know, how much money we spent on summer vacations or you know, uh whatever it might be, but half of who we are, and so I often tell people that nobody can understand what we're going through because they aren't in it. Until you're in it, you don't know. And I'm happy for them. I'm happy that they don't know what it feels like because it is traumatic and painful and it it turns your world upside down. But it doesn't mean you can't exactly like you said, you can't say you even though you don't know what it feels like, can't say, I'm sorry that this happened to you. How are you feeling? How are you doing? We love you and I'm sorry, you know, whatever it might be, you can empathize even if you don't get it. But to tell somebody that they shouldn't feel that way is right ridiculous.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:56

Well, because you I forgot to talk about this part. Another big thing for me is the fact that I alluded to the fact that my kids had some very serious medical conditions when they were children. And after my couple of my kids were diagnosed with they had juvenile arthritis, we realized it had to be from the mother's side, it was hereditary on my side. It would have been very helpful to know my health history at that point, and the fact that my mom I could have lost at least one of my children, and her secret was more important at that time than to tell me even there was a possibility. Let's just say she didn't even admit that she lied. Let's just say she thought, like, oh gosh, there is a slight possibility that there's this other person. So you know, I'm pretty angry about that. Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah, she had opportunity that she should have taken and didn't. So sometimes we so if I'm if I'm not handling it the way you thought I should handle it, like I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:28

Yeah, no, you're not sorry.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:30

Now I'm trying to take care of me and my kids, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:36:32

Well, and and as you say that, I've I've heard it before, and I've even said it early on that you can mess with me, but don't mess with my children, yeah. That mama bear is gonna come out and she is not gonna be pretty. And and like you said, she had opportunity to swallow her pride, yeah, and admitted to something that sh most of us would not want to admit to. But at what point are your children and grandchildren not more important than your pride? And that's what angers me so much.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:09

Like yeah, maybe when they're in the hospital fighting for their lives, that would have been a good time. That's a great time to to bring it up. That would have been a great time to put something up ahead of your lie, but yeah, yeah, craziness.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:26

It is crazy. If there's anyone would like to connect with you based on your story or how they relate to your story, how can they best reach out to you?

SPEAKER_01 1:37:40

Any way they like. You can put all my information in the show notes. I'm happy with you sharing my email. You can connect me with phone numbers, Facebook. I'm pretty much an open book, you can tell. Yes, that's what I love about you. There's I if I can do one thing, it's like get rid of the secrets. So I I forgot to mention that earlier. I I saw that in my notes, my text messages with my mom when it very first started back and forth, and I asked her to go to therapy with me, and she said no. I'm like, I don't know what you're trying to hide or what secret you have, but it must be big. Yeah, I said that to her, and I had no idea about my paternity at that point. She was probably panicking her pants. But anyhow, my goal is yeah, my goal is to not have any more secrets. I'm tired of being the dirty little secret. I'm not doing it. So if someone asks, I'm gonna tell them.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:41

Good for you.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:42

My truth, it's my truth now. I know it was her lie, but now it's my truth.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:47

Yep, your truth, your story. So I think I just anyone you want. Yeah, good for you. Yeah, and I'm in the same way. I'm very obviously, you know, I'm doing the the podcast now, but I think when we've been lied to your whole life, I didn't you didn't do anything wrong, I didn't do anything wrong. And so I'm not gonna and at the same time, I don't want to call out my mother to the world. I'm not trying to bash her so the whole world hates her. No, anybody who might know my mom, who I've personally have told my story to, most of them would say, I guess it doesn't surprise me that your mom, you know, and so they they get it, but yeah. If they wanted better things to be said about them, they should have done better.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:39

That's right. Your actions have consequences, exactly, exactly. Yep. Well, I so yeah, if anyone reaches out, they're happy to, I'm happy to chat anytime.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:52

Perfect. I will I'll put some of your contact in there. And if anybody wants more personal contact information, they can reach out to me and I'll I'll get them in contact with you. Great. Well, Mindy, I want to thank you so much for coming on and sharing your story. And it was a pleasure to see you again, and I can't wait to see you in October. And I really appreciate it. It meant a lot.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:18

Same. Thank you for having me. It was great talking with you, and I look forward to seeing you in just a couple months. Yes, yes, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:26

If you would like to share your story, please email me at motherslies and dna surprises at gmail.com. You can share anonymously if you prefer. I would also love to hear from you with any reviews, questions, comments, or show ideas. Thank you for being here with us where we are not alone in our struggles with our lives.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:47

Don't be quiet, my love. You just don't want to accept you and lie to be alone.