Rachael - Loving a Survivor - A Sacred Witness at Home

What does it take to love someone through trauma without losing yourself? We sit down with Rachel—forensic nurse, educator, and secondary survivor—to unpack the messy, courageous work of building safety, voice, and trust when PTSD lives in the home. From a brave early disclosure on a blind date to a life-saving inpatient stay and a parking-lot pregnancy reveal, her story is equal parts raw and deeply hopeful.

Rachel explains why their earliest agreements mattered: medication choices stayed with him and his doctor, he owned appointments, and she stepped out of the fixer role. We walk through the strain of loud PTSD episodes, the quiet damage of walking on eggshells, and the moment a therapist finally said, “It’s time.” Later, a shared trauma retreat reframed everything: secondary trauma is still trauma, and healing belongs to witnesses, too. Rachel describes laying down resentment, learning somatic regulation, and rebuilding a marriage around honest needs and compassionate boundaries. She also shares what didn’t work—unsafe communities that wanted curated stories—and how safe witnesses, consistent therapy, and body work changed their family’s rhythm.

As a forensic nurse, Rachel brings a trauma-informed lens: consent, pacing, and the sacred weight of someone’s story. She offers practical takeaways for caregivers and survivors alike—safety plans with clear steps, removing lethal means, centering the patient’s voice, and modeling resilience for kids. We end with a simple grounding exercise you can use today to release what isn’t yours to carry.

If this conversation resonates, follow the show, share it with someone who needs a witness, and leave a review so others can find it. Your voice helps build a braver, safer community.

Rachael Reynolds is a Forensic Nurse and educator with over 15 years of experience in Labor & Delivery, Pediatrics, Hospice, and Sexual Assault Forensic Examination. As both a nurse, secondary survivor of sexual assault and the spouse of a survivor, Rachael brings a deeply personal perspective to her work and advocacy. She and her husband Ashton have been married for 15 and a half years, growing side by side as they navigate the realities of PTSD, trauma recovery, the healing power of empathy, and the everyday work of healing — while raising four incredible children. Together, they strive to break the silence and stigma surrounding trauma by embracing transparency, faith, and open communication in their home and community. Rachael believes storytelling has the power to connect, validate, and transform both in the exam room and around the dinner table.

Transcript

Welcome, Grounding, And Content Warning

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome to Defiance of Silence, a Sacred Witness. This is a space for survivors, healers, and witnesses to share their truth. Here we stand against the silence that isolates us and embrace the silence that allows us to be fully heard. I'm power, your host, a U.S. Army veteran, nurse, and a survivor. Together we will discover the power of being witnessed and healing that follows. Gentle note though, this podcast includes conversations about sexual trauma and abuse. Please listen with care and honor your own well-being. Thank you for being here to witness today's conversation. Hi everybody, welcome. I'm excited to have this guest on today. I know you're going to love her story, and I've already been blessed by just a little bit I've gotten to hear. So before we dig into it, let's just take a moment to get present and just recognize that we're here, ready to witness and listen, that we're in our bodies. So hand to heart, take a deep breath in. Just notice where you are. Lots of gratitude for today.

Meet Rachel: Nurse And Secondary Survivor

SPEAKER_01 1:12

So I want to introduce you to Rachel. Rachel, um, I'm just so excited. So Rachel is a forensic nurse. She's an educator with over 15 years of experience in labor and delivery, pediatrics, hospice, and sexual assault forensic examination. So as both a nurse and a secondary survivor of sexual assault and the spouse of a survivor, Rachel brings a deeply personal perspective to her work and her advocacy. Her husband, Ashley, and her have been married for 15 and a half years, growing side by side as they navigate the power of empathy, the realities of PTSD, trauma recovery, and everyday work of healing while raising four incredible children. Together they strive to break the silence and the stigma surrounding trauma by embracing transparency, faith, and open communication in their home and community. Rachel believes in storytelling and it has the power to connect, validate, and transform both in the exam room and around the dinner table. Welcome, Rachel.

SPEAKER_00 2:11

Hi, thank you so much. I'm really excited to be here with you, Valerie.

SPEAKER_01 2:14

Oh, I'm so excited that you're here.

Defining Secondary Survivors

SPEAKER_01 2:17

So you are a secondary survivor. Not a lot of space made for secondary survivors. Can you just explain what a secondary survivor is?

SPEAKER_00 2:28

Sure. So a secondary survivor is someone who has someone important to them in their life who has experienced sexual assault or similar abuse. So that can be a spouse, it can be a child, it can be a sibling, it could even be a roommate or a dear friend. But there's someone in that secondary survivor's life who has been directly affected by this trauma. And there's vicarious trauma that they experience because they love and care for this person.

SPEAKER_01 3:01

Yeah, it's important. And as a survivor myself, you know, my husband would be a secondary survivor. And it's something that as we go through our healing journeys, um, you know, as a survivor, you feel a little guilty that your spouse is maybe paying for the price for something that they really didn't deserve and didn't do. Not that we deserve it either. Um and I'm sure we were going to talk about this too, but there's there's some stuff that can grow there. Um, maybe not the healthiest if it's not talked about. And so that's part of the silence too. Um, just breaking that stigma. I love what you said about that. So just um tell me how you guys met and and how you got together.

SPEAKER_00 3:44

Sure. So we met when um we were both in college. Ashton's about six years older than me. Um, and just to preface that anything I share, I am sharing with his permission.

SPEAKER_01 3:55

Absolutely. Thank you for saying that.

SPEAKER_00 3:58

Yeah, sure. Um, because this is my story, but it's also his story. Um, and so um he has you know approved all the things I'm willing to share here. Um, but we met when we were in school. I was 24 and he was 29. Um, he's six years older than me and um had taken a break from college before he got back into it. Um, and that's an interesting story he may share as well sometime. He actually were set up on a blind date by a mutual friend and uh hit it off. I

Early Relationship, Disclosure, And Boundaries

SPEAKER_00 4:34

knew pretty soon that I was interested, and um I think he was the same way. Um so we went on this blind date um to like a music festival in this small time where we were going to school. Um, and over the next two weeks just spent time getting to know each other. Um, and it was pretty early on within those two weeks that he sat me down, and I think his exact words are like, Listen, I'm really screwed up. Um I remember being like, okay, um, tell me more about that.

SPEAKER_02 5:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:06

Uh, because that on the surface doesn't didn't scare me. Um, and maybe that is some a bit of being a little bit naive at the time, but also just I had already really established within myself um trying to see the value in every person and not letting the cover of anyone's book um prevent me from asking more questions. And I'd already seen so much in him that was a wonderful quality and that I wanted to get to know. And so I was gonna hear him out, but um was not willing to just slam the door just on that admission. So it was in that conversation that he let me know um that he had experienced sexual abuse as a teenager and that the years since had been incredibly difficult. Um, and there had been other complications with other relationships in his life that had um caused more trauma and that he really felt like he was still figuring this out. And there were still a lot of times where he felt irrevocably broken. Um and so I just remember in that moment feeling a lot of compassion for him that he couldn't really see the same value in himself that I could see, the potential there. Um and I remember just telling him, like, this isn't a deal breaker for me. Um, I think let's continue to have this conversation, but this alone does not outweigh the good things and the things that intrigue me about you um enough to make me walk away.

SPEAKER_02 6:49

Oh, that's beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 6:50

I think he was really surprised. Um I since then we've had a couple conversations about that. And I think he was prepared for me to be like, so this has been nice, but um, and I don't pass judgment on anybody who would have made that decision. Um, I believe there is some divine providence there that allowed us to continue on that path getting to know each other. Um, and that maybe being naive played a hand in that and and that it all worked out for the best. Um, but I I definitely was not willing to give up on him. And so we continued that conversation, and I remember pretty early on establishing some things um which have really paid off in the long run. So earlier it may have even been in that same conversation, I think he was saying stuff like, I'm just really grumpy most of the time. Um, and it was already pretty clear that like I was the optimist, and he was definitely a pessimist, or what he'd probably want to say is a realist. Um and I remember telling him, like, listen, you can be super grumpy, you can be all the grumpy you want to be, but just know that my trade-off is I'm going to make fun of you for it. I'm going to call you out on it and make light of it when I can. And, you know, like you're just gonna have to maybe deal with that. But I will play into this little grumpy man thing, and that's gonna be our role. And um, he was like, well, okay, we'll just see how that goes. Um, and that next few weeks where we were still getting to know each other, there were definitely times where I could tell he was trying to run me off. Um, I remember one date we were on, we were driving to a next town, like maybe 30 minutes away, um, I think to go see a movie. And he was like throwing so much at me that he was essentially like insulting my faith and telling me that like it wasn't well founded and all the stuff that I was

Marriage, PTSD Episodes, And Triage Therapy

SPEAKER_00 8:46

like, okay, wait, hang on. So, what is happening here is you are trying to run me off, I feel like. And I'm not gonna take offense to this, although what you just said is offensive, but I'm not gonna take that to heart because I can see the game that you're playing, and let's just get down to the real conversation.

SPEAKER_01 9:03

Yeah, what's really going on here?

SPEAKER_00 9:05

Yeah. Are you just scared because this is going well? And what you've done per yourself in the past is run people off because the only way you know how to deal with all this inside of you is to isolate and be alone. Um, and I think he was pretty much like nailed it.

SPEAKER_01 9:23

How'd you do that?

SPEAKER_00 9:24

Yeah. Um, and I'm like, well, so let's if you need space, like that's a valid thing. Like if you're saying, like, I'm dealing with a lot and I need some space, that's fine. But also, if you're willing to let me sit beside you in that space, like I'm willing to do that. Um, and not long after that, I ended up taking a trip overseas for two weeks. And I remember leading up to that, um, like I was pretty sure that things were moving towards long term. I was prepared for that, wanting that, if he was willing to get on board, but I could tell there was a lot of hesitancy on his side, not necessarily how he felt about me, but I think he was he seemed pretty terrified. And although he was not really admitting the depths of how he felt about me, I could see it. And so um I kept saying things like, Well, are you gonna miss me? And he'd be like, it'll be a short time and then you'll be back and I'll get to hear about your adventures. Um, but not really saying all the things I was baiting him to tell me, right? Um so I I went um to Houston, I was flying out of Houston, um, and I stayed with my grandparents overnight. And I remember sitting down with my very wise, very kind and compassionate grandparents and telling them they already knew about Ashton, but telling them like kind of where I was at. Like, I think I could have a future with this man, even though there are these issues in our past, and who doesn't have family dynamic issues or instances of trauma or areas they need to grow in. Um although these seem pretty significant, especially for him, I'm that's not a deal breaker for me. What my problem was at the time is that I he was really struggling to get on board, really, and

First Inpatient Stay And A Surprise Pregnancy

SPEAKER_00 11:14

and um open himself up to this possible commitment of even just seeing where things went. And so I remember he had plans to move states, he would be graduating in a few months, I would be graduating a semester after that. And um I had always figured I would not move out of state away from my family unless I was married or engaged. And so I said that to my grandfather, and he goes, Well, it sounds like this young man has potential and he has amazing qualities that you really appreciate. Yes, sir. All right, and when you graduate, you have to work somewhere, yes, sir. Yeah, I'm gonna be working as a nurse. And he says, Well, I don't see why you can't work in Georgia versus Texas. So maybe take the pressure off yourself. Yeah, it's absolutely not what I was expecting. And I was like, you're right. Like maybe I'm putting more pressure on this because there seems to be a shorter timeline before these other life events happen. And I need to be very clear about the way I'm feeling and open up that dialogue, but also be willing to take a step back and say, listen, if we're willing to see where this goes together, I'm willing to walk forward in that and potentially even move to Georgia while we were still dating to see if there's a long-term future for us. So I went on this trip, really thought about that advice, knowing that my grandparents were praying for me in this decision. They were really the only people I had talked to about that in depth. Came back from that trip, and that person that I got back, um, Ashton was just different. And he said, So it took you going away for me to realize that I'm in love with you. And I knew it before I could let myself feel it. And I think that that was me trying to be protective, but that's where I'm at. And I was like, oh, good. So this will be real good for the conversation guys. So from that point on, it was just like, all right, we are in the same page. And now it's just about being honest with each other about navigating some of these complexities.

SPEAKER_02 13:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:34

Um, and from that point on, we were pretty much planning our future together. So he did graduate in August. We were engaged in October. I graduated in December, and then we were married the following May.

SPEAKER_01 13:47

So, how long okay, 13 months? That's what I was about to ask. 13 months. And I have to commend him for telling you before, I mean, right out the gate that something was going on. That's pretty incredible, actually.

SPEAKER_00 13:59

Yes, I feel like that was such a gift, and honestly, is what made a lot of that those conversations and us being able to move forward and explore an option of being together possible. Um, I understand when people feel like they cannot share their trauma. It's incredibly difficult.

SPEAKER_02 14:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:22

And it can be so complex. Um, and yet it was so important to the foundation of our relationship that that honesty was there from the beginning.

Outpatient Work, Triggers, And Communication

SPEAKER_00 14:32

And it allowed us to establish some things as we were planning our life together. And so it allowed us to establish some boundaries and just some basic rules that we've definitely had to add to and grow in. But some of those basic ones were in the beginning. And a lot of these came into play, not just because of Ashton Shrows, but also my own. I call myself like a recovering enabler because I am a helper. It's in my spirit, it's in my soul to help other people. And until you learn how to do that with appropriate boundaries in a way that's healthy for you, it can lead to a lot of enabling and coming in as a savior and in a way that is not healthy for either person.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

Yeah, that needs to be louder for the people in the back, like myself.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 15:21

Yes, those are powerful words.

SPEAKER_00 15:24

Yes, like it's you can know it and it can still be an ongoing thing you practice and you relearn and repractice as you go. Um, because to have a heart to care for people in tough spaces is a wonderful thing. Um, I don't necessarily think it's like this noble thing that, you know, it's not to put anyone on a pedestal, but it is just a thing that some of us, some of humanity have, while other people have other um contributions to their community in other ways. But for people who are healers and who are willing to listen, we have to check ourselves and make sure that we're one taking care of ourselves and two doing things in a healthy way that don't cause further harm. And so I was in a place in my young life where I had found myself in positions where I was not doing things that were healthy while trying to help others. And it it led to problems and and the breakdown of those relationships and potentially causing more harm to people. And so I was in this place when I met him where I was learning to choose a healthier path. And so in those discussions, we established some things that we wanted to hang on to going forward in our relationship. And one was if Ashton and his doctor decided that medications were what was important for his healing at that time, that was going to be a non-negotiable. So um, he may ask for my input of like, what do you see? Because it can be hard when you're experiencing things yourself. Sometimes those close to you can say, Well, actually, I know you said you started feeling depressed in February, but I started noticing some things in December that made me concerned for you, like those type of comments.

SPEAKER_02 17:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:15

But I did not ever want to be in the driver's seat for that or the one dictating what needed to happen. At the same time, if we had employed these experts and these physicians or therapists in our life and asking them for their recommendations, I did not want us to push that aside if Ashton and those people had decided he needed meds at that time. And he agreed. Yes, um, I feel like we can do that. Um, the other thing we talked about was I did not want to be the one making his appointments, make sure he got to those appointments, telling him, hey, you need to make a follow-up, that was his responsibility.

SPEAKER_01 18:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:00

And was my way to not try to take control of the situation.

SPEAKER_01 18:07

That's wise.

SPEAKER_00 18:09

Yes. I and like, thank God. I don't know, but for the grace of God, go I really in a lot of that, because I was very young. Um, but just establishing those basic things really helped. And so ever since then, if the doctor prescribes meds or says, hey, I think we need to adjust this, he's the one at that appointment talking with them about that. If he comes back and says, Hey, I would like your opinion on some things you've

Hitting A Wall And The Grief To Grace Retreat

SPEAKER_00 18:36

seen or whatever, I'm happy to share that. But that's a decision between him and him and him and his physician, and then making those appointments, attending those appointments, any follow-up, that is his responsibility. And a lot of that comes back to the bul that we believe it is not your fault what happens to you.

SPEAKER_02 18:54

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 18:54

It is not your fault when someone chooses to cause you harm.

unknown 18:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:01

But it is your responsibility to work on healing yourself and to seek that healing so that other people aren't harmed around you.

SPEAKER_01 19:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:13

And that can be a great thing and it's also a burden at the same time. And it's not fair. But it is the cards that have been dealt. And no one else can choose healing for you as much as I would love to. I mean, and I think I hope I hope that every survivor has someone in their life who would say, Man, if I could just take this from you, I would. Yeah. But we can't. Yeah. We can't. And to try is we are not equipped. We we cannot be everything for that person. And that also begins to sacrifice our emotional health as well. And that's that will not lead to a healthy, thriving relationship. Um, so establishing those things early on was really helpful. Um, but definitely as we moved closer to our wedding, um, and those first few months um of marriage were really difficult. I think while I knew I knew, I didn't know. Yeah, I didn't know what I was getting into, and neither did Ashton. He never had a spouse. He'd never lived with someone like this and tried to navigate the complexities of PTSD and trauma with someone by his side that now he needed to consider their input and how they were feeling and their response to things, and vice versa. So um, and if he gets to share his story, I hope he will. Um a lot of his early coping was just isolating himself. Yeah. Well, when you have a spouse who's there all the time, that becomes impossible. Or at the very least, if that is something a coping mechanism that's being employed, it becomes very problematic for the relationship.

SPEAKER_02 21:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:12

So we chose to start in um premarital counseling primarily to be like, we are having some trouble communicating and navigating these things, and we need some help. Like we are recognizing that this is um difficult, and we really don't have the skills we need right now to this. Right. So um we started with a wonderful therapist um who pretty quickly caught on to exactly what was going on and really at the time did exactly what he needed to do, which was triage this, triage the situation. Um, and that continued through our first few months of marriage. I remember before we were married, him saying, like, okay, so I have some concerns, and I think it's possible that it might be best to address those concerns with Ashton going inpatient. And we were both like, I don't know, like we have to work,

Letting Go Of Anger And Rebuilding

SPEAKER_00 22:10

we don't have the nest egg to just not have him working and or to pay for those hospital bills. And Ashton was like, I really don't want to do that. He'd never been inpatient before. Um, we're about to get married. Talk about stress, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:28

I mean, that's a lot.

SPEAKER_00 22:29

Yes. And I had to sit for my inclects. I had some family situations going on that um we felt like we needed to be supportive of. And so it was just a wild time. And I looking back, I can see our our therapist going, okay, um, well, let's just keep that in mind. And really going, oh, y'all just don't realize like how badly this is needed. Yeah. Um at the same time, those therapy sessions were difficult for me because as the therapist was doing what he should and triaging the situation, which was the man who in crisis in front of him, who he was very concerned about his safety and wellness going forward, I felt like my voice was shut down some. And I can look back now and see why that was. It's actually what needed to happen because the focus did need to be on Ashton and getting him the help he needed. But it made me feel like my concerns weren't valid, my voice really didn't have space there. Um, and that was really hard. And it kind of set some things in motion that were not the healthiest for me going forward. Um, well, looking back now, I probably should have gotten my own individual therapist right then to have a space where I could vent and have feedback and learn more about myself.

SPEAKER_01 24:02

Yeah, I think that's important too to mention, is that, and I can attest to that too, is I think couples having therapists together. This is just my personal opinion and lived experience, and you're shaking your head too. That's fine and well. But if you don't have your own to work on yourself, like I feel like once we got a hold of that where we could work on ourselves, the couples therefore wasn't really necessary because we had the ability to work with when we were working on ourselves. So like it works that way. Like you don't have to do couple stuff. I mean, I guess, but you're

Parenting, Resilience, And Safe Communities

SPEAKER_01 24:40

really, really, truly working on yourself and you're breaking down all the things that are keeping you held up and not allowing space for your spouse, then those things fall away and it just comes together beautifully. So I'm really glad that you said that. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 24:56

Yes, yes. Um, so it that really that realization really changed how we did therapy going forward in our marriage. But back at that time, we got married and we were married in May, at the very end of May. And by August, I remember walking, maybe it was actually late July. We walked into our therapist's office, and I remember just feeling so exhausted and so defeated. We were having what we have coined PTSD episodes. Um, and PTSD is going to be so specific to that person and what they experience, and the reaction and response towards people around them, and then varies from even those people and their reaction and response to those events. So um that's gonna be really personal, but um, those events were hard for me to witness. I never felt physically unsafe ever. Nothing was ever done towards me in that way. Um, but there was a lot of raised voices, um, and that can be hurtful, and there were words that were said that can be that were hurtful. Um, and it was scary. It was scary, and it was scary for Ashton too. Um, and so we were at a place where that was happening multiple times a week, and this was early in your marriage, very early, and then the first six to eight weeks that we married. Wow. Um and of course it had reached a new level than it had before because now we were together all the time, right? Um, and we just really didn't know how to handle it. He didn't know how to handle the things that were going on inside of him or to how to communicate what he was feeling to someone else and struggled to identify his own triggers. And I really had no idea how to support him or to support myself in that. And so we walked into our therapist's office in late July, and I remember he he actually looked at me this time and said, It's time he has to go inpatient. It's time you need to go. Like y'all are reaching a place where I'm very concerned for your well-being. And I'm telling you now, it is my recommendation that you drop everything, put it on pause, and you go inpatient. And at the time there was a hospital in Dallas called Timberlawn. It is now closed, um, but they had a trauma unit that was known to be um very good for um people of with various diagnoses. Um and I think at that point, I don't know that Ashton actually had a diagnosis on the book. He had worked with therapists, um, I think he had realized with those therapists, okay, this is probably PTSD, but as far as having a medical diagnosis, I don't think that had happened

Finding Resources And Entering Forensic Nursing

SPEAKER_00 28:06

until he went inpatient. So I remember driving him up to Dallas and I was terrified. And I can only imagine how terrified he was. Um, but the fixer in me like helped him prepare our bag. We found out what he was allowed to take and what he wasn't. I wrote out all these phone numbers on a piece of paper for him, knowing he could not keep a phone. Um, we packed a couple books. He's a very much an intellectual, so something to take his mind off what he was doing, but also keep it engaged. We were packing those things, putting them in the car and driving and just feeling absolutely petrified about what was going to happen. And it felt felt a lot like abandoning him to leave him there.

SPEAKER_02 28:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:53

And yet at the same time, I felt this desperation and this hope that it would be something that was really helpful for him and helpful for us because there was no denying that we needed help, that we needed a lot of help to figure out how to navigate this trauma. And so he did about 10 days in Timberlawn, and it was very good for him. I would say it saved his life at the time. And he would say that as well. Um, and he did come out with a diagnosis and I think a feeling of, okay, now we have a roadmap and some coping skills. And there were, I think I probably went up maybe three or four times. Like I would come back and work my few days and then go back up there and see him for visiting hours for dinner. Um, and so maybe I was able to do that three times during his stay. Um and I could see throughout the time, like, okay, this is not like a fun, like this isn't Disneyland. This isn't super fun, but it is super needed. And I could see just a little bit more weight lifted off of him every Time. Um, and so we I actually the day I picked him up, and this might be a side story, but she plays a big part of it. The day I picked him up from Timberlawn that morning, I'd been staying with my best friend and I found out I was pregnant. And I remember being like, God, what in the world are you doing? Yeah, because we can barely get it together. And now we have this baby on the way. And just being kind of scared, like, wow. Um, I've always wanted to be a mom. We've talked about that, but the timing seems not ideal, Lord. So I'm gonna glue me in what you're doing. Wow. I picked Ashton up and told him in the parking lot, and his first response was sheer joy of just like, this is a gift. This is a gift to change our life, and this is a gift.

SPEAKER_01 31:07

Did that change your perspective almost immediately?

SPEAKER_00 31:10

Yes, because that's what I wanted

Voice, Consent, And Trauma-Informed Care

SPEAKER_00 31:12

to say, and that's what, but at the same time, you're like, This yeah, like, wait till I tell people I found out I was pregnant and told you I was pregnant in the parking lot of a mental hospital.

SPEAKER_01 31:23

Like that's what's a story for your grandkids, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:26

Yeah, right. Like it sounds crazy. And there were varied reactions. Sure. Sure, I imagine so. Understandably so, yeah. Um, but ultimately he was absolutely right. Like she was a gift, and she was a gift that God gave us at that time to bond us in a way that nothing else could have, and to remind us of the things we were fighting for. Um, and so she that was in August, and she was born the next April, and we continued, he continued with that therapist. We no longer did couples counseling because it was pretty clear to me that that relationship that was established was mainly between Astrid and therapist, and he needed continue that. Um, and I for some time got my own therapist. It was, I feel like it was short-lived though. I can't quite remember. Um, and so I fell into this place of prepared trying to be a mom and trying to support my husband and trying to learn how to do that. To try to learn more about what his triggers were and how I could support him, and a little bit of walking on eggshells, of not knowing how or what to avoid. And I think we still had a lot to learn about open communication. But even then, I've gotten a lot better at now. I was still the one that was really like gritting my teeth and trying to pull as much as I could into the light. Um, I think these things just grow and get bigger and more destructive in the darkness. And I was breaking for light with everything in me. And so if I could bring someone in that had been through this or that could support us through prayer or encouragement, or like I was running towards that, and sometimes dragging Ashton with me while trying to be really patient and sensitive to the fact that this was a process for him that was incredibly painful and difficult in ways that I would never fully understand. So trying to be compassionate and patient with him while also saying, like, we can't just keep this hidden. The healing that we need as a family, as individuals, is going to be found in the light. So, where can we find resources? Where can we find someone to come alongside us that will be a sacred witness to our story? Yeah. Who will hold us accountable, who will encourage us when things get tough, um,

2022 Crisis, Safety Plans, And Reset

SPEAKER_00 34:16

and trying to find those places and spaces in our life. And in that first year or so, when our oldest daughter was really little, that was hard. We were in some places in some community that was not open to transparency.

SPEAKER_01 34:32

Yep. And unfortunately, unfortunately, that's a lot of these stories that I hear. It's tell us everything. Oh, except for that. We're gonna help you with everything. That's uh that doesn't matter. Except for that, yeah. Oh, that's too heavy. We're not gonna talk about that in this group. Yeah, oh, I feel that.

SPEAKER_00 34:53

Yes, and those aren't safe people. And so trying to navigate, okay, these aren't safe people, which means this is not the community in which we're gonna get what we need.

SPEAKER_01 35:02

Yeah, and that hurts too when you're when you're like, yeah, I need help here. And this hurts, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:10

And and finding that you need to break away from relationships that are potentially doing harm or at the very least are not going to help you find healing, that's painful because that's not necessarily what you want.

SPEAKER_01 35:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:23

A lot of times you want those relationships to be the ones that are safe, and you want those relationships to be the ones that help you find healing. And when they're not, and you have to choose yourself and your partner and your health over that, it's painful. It's really painful. And so we were experiencing some of that, um, particularly in our church community. And for both of us, faith is really important. And so that was painful on so many levels.

SPEAKER_02 35:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:52

Um, and we spent about two years after that not consistently in church um because of that experience. Um and during that time, we were both working full time. I was working just at the hospital. Um, and there were times when things would be better, and then times when we felt like we were right back at square one. And I remember being like, okay, so we've learned a little bit more how to talk about this, but it feels like a whole lot of eggshells for me.

SPEAKER_02 36:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:29

Um, how do I avoid these triggers? How do I like bring things up that might be a stressful conversation that could then open us up to triggers like maybe I just won't bring it up? That's not great either. Um, but then when our daughter was about nine months old, he we decided to do an outpatient um program for Ashton in Dallas and had some wonderful friends give him a place to stay. Um, and he did that program for three weeks in December. It was like right up until Christmas. And they would let me stay with them when I came up to see him with the baby, and that was really good too. Um, and of course, it was really good for Ashton. I'm just kind of on the outside looking in, going, This is I'm so glad, this is great, and like happy to hear what he's learning, taking what little I can from the maybe one or two family sessions we had, um, and really just his response of telling me like things he was discovering. But it wasn't a whole lot for me as a secondary survivor. It was still a lot of, okay, how do I support him in this? How do I avoid the things that are going to be super problematic? Uh, but not a whole lot of still not really learning how to attend to myself.

SPEAKER_01 37:53

Yeah. I mean, and that's not really healing. That's like, like you said, like a lot of eggshell walking and avoiding the trigger for

Systems Of Support, Therapy, And Boundaries

SPEAKER_01 38:02

the other person when really they that's their responsibility is to manage the things that trigger. And that's a hard thing to learn as a caregiver, as a family member. It's like, no, I'm not purposely trying to trigger you, but if something happens that triggers you, you have to realize that it's your responsibility to make that. Like no one's doing this to you on purpose. And I can imagine navigating that with a new baby and feeling lost yourself. Like, wow, wow, right now.

SPEAKER_00 38:32

And also, like, if you could tell me, like if you figure out what these triggers are, could you please tell me?

SPEAKER_01 38:38

I'd love to tell you that if we knew them ourselves. Right. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 38:43

And then realizing that like it's not as easy as it's yes, that's my point. Is it's not that simple. Yeah, it's not that simple. Because oh, that would be so cool if it was. Um, but you know, if there are things I can easily go, oh, that's not a big deal. Like, I don't have to do that. Like I remember there was one where like I am a lifelong like crime junkie, driven for justice, want to know those stories, not just for like the voyeurism of them, but because I really do care about people and I want to. So I mean, like a lot of people, I am drawn to those type of shows and things like that. So I remember watching maybe Law and Order SVU one time at our house. And I think he just heard the music and he came and he said, Hey, can you do me a favor? Can we not watch that? Because that's really hard for me.

SPEAKER_02 39:36

It's really hard.

SPEAKER_00 39:37

I go, Of course it is. Like, duh. Yeah, yes, that's an easy one. That is an absolute easy one. That is no burden off me to say, yeah, we're not gonna have that on in our home. That's fine. And I've never watched it since. And I've actually had him come back and be like, you could watch it like when I'm not around. And I'm like, well, I didn't want it popping up on the Netflix. Yeah. And you've been like, yeah, it was just an easy one to say, Yeah, that is not, yes, we can give that up.

SPEAKER_01 40:07

That's not a big and I think it's important to mention too that it's it's so beautiful that you gave him that space to do that because as a survivor, sometimes it is hard to ask for what we need. So we and I can do for myself, I would anticipate and expect my husband to pick up on cues that I was dropping or hints that I was dropping. And when he didn't, it was like World War III. Like, what do you mean you're not gonna, you know, how did you not get what I was saying for the last three weeks stopping around here? It's silly to say that now, but but it's once the communication is there and it's honoring for you to do that and say, okay, we to go to the first place to be able to score the thing that's bothering me, like for me to say the same thing like I have I have a really big problem with being trapped somewhere because of my story. I don't it's not as bad as it used to be, but you know, just playing around sometimes to put his hand across like a doorway just to kill me and like maybe give me a kiss, but I'm like, you just

Healing Is Nonlinear: Hope And Honesty

SPEAKER_01 41:12

trapped me in this bathroom and you better get the F out of the way right now because this is not funny to me. And I could never articulate it and just so you just terrified me, and I know you didn't mean to. So then I'm like, well, I don't want to tell him terrified me because I really didn't do it on purpose, but I'm over here like mulling about it and going, you know, and it's terrible attacking. So but as soon as I said you can't do that because it freaks me out, it's like, oh well, I'm sorry. And then I'm like, why did I do that to myself for a month? Like, why didn't I just say this is a problem for me?

SPEAKER_00 41:48

Yeah, so just say the thing.

SPEAKER_01 41:51

Yeah, so that's honoring that you gave him that space to do that.

SPEAKER_00 41:55

I feel like there can be so much fear.

SPEAKER_02 41:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 41:59

I think I think a lot of that kind of like you're just so afraid. Like the survivor is afraid to even identify what they need. And I feel like there's a lot of times so much shame and lack of worth that comes into like, yeah, I don't even deserve to say what I yeah, there's part of that too. And then as a secondary survivor, like, yeah, absolutely. And then as a secondary survivor, you're like, I just I can't read their mind. Like, I I wish it could be more cut and dry because there are things that would be so easy for me to go, like, yeah, that's not a big deal. We don't have to do that. Or then I could understand more where where they're coming from. And so learning how to communicate is super important and learning that each other are safe and hopefully, or or if necessary, becoming the safe person for learning how to be a safe person, yeah. Yeah. So what we're taking practice. Yes, it does.

SPEAKER_01 42:53

And we always have do at one point. Did you feel like you guys kind of turned a corner and you got into a rhythm? Or like, you know, did you did you really struggle? Like, did you take on anxiety and depression? And did you have these things pop up for you, like that vicarious trauma? Like, how did that look for you? Like, so Ashton's getting better, but then what about you?

SPEAKER_00 43:14

Yeah, definitely. So I think the longer it goes on, the more vicarious trauma I have of anticipating those BTSD episodes that could be loud or things, items in our home could be broken. Um, like what's gonna bring that on? Um, okay, I can't have this conversation about something stressful because it could bring that on. So then there are important conversations that really have nothing to do with the PTSD, but that we can't have because we're both afraid of what the stress will do. And so over those that's crazy making right, yeah, absolutely. And then just like I can't read his mind, he can't read mine. And so then there's this fear of like, maybe we just won't say it right. Um, so while we were learning some things, we did get into this

Breathwork, Hugs, And Hot Cocoa Practice

SPEAKER_00 44:05

pattern of like not saying a whole lot of things. Um, so while he's in therapy, I'm sometimes in therapy, but not consistently. I think we even tried couples counseling another time, and it was more of like clearly there's needs to be more work done individually before we come together because we're just in here talking past each other and feeling defensive and feeling hurt by what the other one's saying, and this isn't working, it's making things worse. Um, but I remember we'd had a second baby two and a half years after that. And during that pregnancy, things were kind of ramping up. Um, there was more stress, there was more just feeling really broken down and resentment and anger on my part. And sometimes it was towards Ashton. A lot of times it was towards the people in his life that I held responsible for his abuse.

SPEAKER_02 45:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:01

And to be honest, that was not always the direct abuser. Um, I had a lot of anger towards other people who I felt had left him susceptible. Yeah, shouldn't it should have protected them.

SPEAKER_01 45:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:16

Yeah. And and their lack of response after. That things could be very different for my husband and my family, my children now.

SPEAKER_01 45:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:24

If he had gotten the support he needed after that and didn't have to wait 20 years to start dealing with it in a meaningful way.

unknown 45:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:33

And so a lot of anger and resentment. Um, and so we reached a point when our younger, our second child was about to, or I was like, I don't know. Like, I don't know if I can keep doing this. I don't know if I can keep raising children like this. Like, I know I love my husband, but right now that seems like not even close enough to continue in the difficulties of this. Yeah. And I don't feel like I have what I need. I don't feel like I have the space to say what I need or

Closing Reflections And Support Resources

SPEAKER_00 46:05

even identify what I need. And right now there seems little hope of ever getting what I need. And it seems like I can't give him what he needs. Yeah. I can't affect or support in a way that really makes meaningful, lasting change. And so what the heck's it for?

SPEAKER_02 46:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:23

And that was me as an optimist reaching that point, which was pretty dark and hard. Um, and at the same time, we had people in our life who we had been open and honest with really praying for us. Um, one was my grandmother, and um, she's just recently passed, but she was very, very important to us. And I know that she was praying for us every day and asking God to bring supernatural healing into our lives in whatever form he would use. Um, and she'd actually been trying to get Ashton to attend a trauma retreat for several years, and we always had a reason why because we didn't have the money or which we didn't, we did not, we absolutely did not, but you know, we didn't have the money or the time, and a lot of it was just excuses. And so she called me up maybe in the fall of 2016 and said, Hey, if Ashton will go, I will pay his way. And that was not a small chunk of change. Um, and I said, Okay, well, let me talk to him. And so I said, Hey, um, you know, Mamma feels really strongly about this opportunity. She feels like God is asking her to pay your way. Um, but she also recognizes that you have to be willing to go do the work. Yeah. Um, and so he he thought about for a while and he said, Okay, I'll go. And so then he had a conversation with the director of New Heart of Texas Ministries, um, who was running this trauma retreat called Grief to Grace. And it is for um sexual abuse survivors who've experienced that abuse at any point in their life. Um, and so she spoke, he spoke with her on the phone, and um, you know, she interviews every person who applies before to kind of see where they're at and kind of program and decide together if it's a good fit. And after that conversation, he came to me and he said, So she wants to talk to you and she's wants to set up a phone and call with you. And I was like, why?

SPEAKER_01 48:32

Why?

SPEAKER_00 48:33

Can't you just go? Yeah, like just go and come back and tell me how it went.

SPEAKER_01 48:37

Yeah, everything will be great.

SPEAKER_00 48:38

It'll be fine.

SPEAKER_01 48:39

Is this just for men or or do they do men and women? Men and women. Okay. And assuming in separate cohorts, like they don't work them together or do they? Actually, interesting.

SPEAKER_00 48:49

Okay. Um so what I soon found out on that phone call was hey Rachel, so the reason I want to talk to you is because a lot of times we recommend spouses come together. And I was like, oh no, I'm not doing that.

SPEAKER_02 49:04

Right?

SPEAKER_00 49:05

Like, no, no, he can go, but um uh no thanks. Um, and I was like, Well, I don't like I I have not been abused, and she was oh no, I know, but trauma begets trauma, sweetheart, and you are walking in the aftermath of that act that was per perpetrated against your husband, and you are living out in the fallout of that, yeah, and that is trauma, yeah, and you deserve to have a space to find healing from that, and together you deserve to have a space to witness that healing in each other. Oh, that's really beautiful. Yeah, it really was. And we believe strongly that this can be a powerful thing in your lives, and um so now was this the first time anyone had acknowledged that this is trauma for you?

SPEAKER_01 49:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 50:00

I mean, I think I mean in that way, yeah. Openly and like, yeah, no girl, you need some help too. Yeah, right. Yeah, and she said, so what I want you to do is I she said, I know money's tight, and I know your grandmother is paying for Ashon to come. And what I want you to do is call your church and explain to them what's going on and tell them I need help to get there. And if if they can help you, we can also meet you halfway. Wow. Yes, like such an incredible gift because I know therapy and these events, they are costly. Yep. And they can be cost prohibitive to a lot of people. And so this really was a huge gift that people were coming to say, like, we believe there's healing for you as individuals and as a family, and um, we're gonna make a way for you to be there. And it really felt like divine provision. And so I decided to go with him, and there was a lot of fear and anxiety heading into that for both of us, right? Um, because we were gonna have to be vulnerable as individuals, and we'd never been in a position outside of a couple couple's therapy sessions where we are gonna be vulnerable in that way together, right? And I will say, hands down, those five days were incredibly transformative and incredibly healing, and one of the best gifts we've ever given ourselves or each other, and it absolutely saved our marriage. So, in that trauma retreat, really um, they do a lot of like guided meditation work. You end up doing what we I would call body work now, yeah. Um like somatic things, absolutely yes, and firm believer in that.

SPEAKER_01 52:02

It's transformative for sure.

SPEAKER_00 52:04

And it is um it is faith-based, and so a lot of that is um scripture-based. And I remember one of the first guided sessions we did. You were to place yourself there on the steps outside the pool of Bethesda with the crippled man. He's begging for healing. He wants to be the first one in those waters, but someone always gets there first. And Jesus comes up to him, and of course, he doesn't realize he's Jesus, uh, but we as the reader get to know that it is. Right. And he says, My son, do you want to be healed? And he's like, What do you like? Of course I want to be healed. Why else do you think I'm sitting here? And Jesus asked him again, do you want to be healed? And I remember sitting there, and Jesus is asking me that you're here, but do you want to be healed? Are you willing to receive the healing I have for you here in this space in this moment? And going, well, I don't, I've been begging for healing, but I don't know if I've ever really said, like, I'm willing to receive this for myself. And that started off this retreat and really put me in a place where it's like, yes, I have not experienced the same thing some of my counterparts here have experienced. But I can acknowledge that the fallout of that has been unfair and traumatizing to me and the other people, other loved ones and secondary survivors that are here and at home. And that while we want healing for our survivor, there's also healing to be found, and we need to want it for ourselves. And so that was really powerful for me. Um, to have that space and that realization that like I could seek out healing for myself. And in doing that, I was being supportive to my healing survivor. I was being supportive for my family. Um in that it wasn't selfish to say how can I find the space and the words to express my needs and to find a way to meet them. So it was also in that trauma retreat where you're asked to bury some of your burdens in the tomb with Christ. And um, the burdens that were identified for me in my my prayers were that anger and resentment that were really keeping my heart and my spirit just locked away from even compassion towards my husband, towards being open towards healing for either one of us, um, and towards the people who, yeah, did did hold some responsibility in leaving him vulnerable and without the care he needed. But hanging on to that was not gonna help me move forward. It wasn't gonna help us move forward. And so I was really able to lay down those boulders that were weighing me down and leave them there. And I can honestly say that since then, I by the grace of God have never picked them back up in the same way. I'm not saying there's never been times where I've been angry or not, you know, can't say there's never been times where I've been resentful, but it it does not drown me. It does not threaten threaten me in the same way it did because that is it's buried there. And it taught me to release that back to really you know, bless and release those things back to the Lord and and move on with the healing that is ahead for me and for my family. So moving forward from that in that next year, honestly, we saw provision and miracle after miracle that could go on forever. I mean, like from tangible financial provision of one afternoon through a series of circumstances of breakdowns and a car accident, we had no vehicle to and no means to get one to the next morning. I had a van in my driveway to needing us to, we need we needed to find a home and could not find a home. And the very next week, after weeks of me, you know, really striving on my own to find one, we had the perfect place for us to at that retreat. God had told me, like, your big biggest fear is that your family is going to fail, that it's gonna crumble and fall apart. And what I'm telling you is it's not, it's gonna grow and it's even gonna grow in number, and there will be more of you, and it'll be a testament to the healing that y'all have found here by my grace. And the next year we had a baby. So that's baby number three. Yeah, baby number three. I never thought it was gonna be possible. Yeah, I was one foot out the door, sure. Sure. Um, and so really that opened up, and that season with that little baby that was promised to me was incredibly joyful, was so wonderful, was unlike any of our other experiences because we had we were in this place of healing and open communication with one another and had learned how to be a safe place for each other and speak up about our needs in a way we hadn't before. And so, really, I look back on that time as incredibly joyful and wonderful for all five of us. Um, in the years that lay ahead, um there were tough times. There were times when we were still having, you know, still experiencing PTSD episodes, times when he didn't feel like he had what he needed, like I didn't feel like I had what I needed, navigating those periods of where things are great. And then times when they were not, and um really choosing every day, or sometimes having to come back and say, hey, I have not been choosing compassion for you or myself for a while. And I'm reminded that I need to. And grounding ourselves and coming back to a place of like, okay, this is why we do this. This family is our why. We have chosen to fight for health and healing because we want that for ourselves, we want that for each other, and we want that for these children.

SPEAKER_01 58:39

Um, and really keeping those main goals as the grounding principles of why we got up every day and choose to fight for healing and breaking those generational curses and those things that if we it and I'm a firm believer in whatever we don't transform is gonna transfer. So getting a hold of it and stopping it here. Um man, that's there's nothing more powerful. Like I'm still just hearing you say that.

SPEAKER_00 59:08

Like that's yeah, I feel like a parent that can be so scary, whether you're the survivor or the secondary survivor, this fear of like I'm going to mess them up. Like, and I think every parent has that fear. I I feel like if there's a parent that says they've never worried about that, they're lying. They're lying, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:26

Or they're just blissfully, amazingly unaware. I don't know that that exists actually.

SPEAKER_00 59:32

Right. But I feel like when you are well acquainted with trauma and its effects, um that there's another level of fear that you just don't understand unless you're in the same boat. And I mean, we've talked about this count, I can't even tell you countless of times. Sebastian's saying, I'm I've got to mess them up. Like they they don't deserve to see this, they deserve to have a dad that's healthy all the time and doesn't have to work at it and doesn't have times when he's not well. And it's in those times where I just remind him and as like, listen, that is what we want, but that's also what we want for you.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:10

And what we can give them is showing them when hard times come because they will. And there will be things in this life that happen to us that are not fair and that are not our fault. But then we find ourselves with the responsibility of healing from it and dealing with the fallout. That will happen. We are teaching them how to deal with it. We are teaching them not to hide. We are teaching them that there is no shame in it. We are teaching them to find safe people. We are teaching them to go to professionals who can help them, whether that is a doctor who's assisting with therapies and medications, or a talk therapist, or some, you know, a therapist who's helping them with body work. Or um, you know, maybe it is through dance or taekwondo or another way where they are learning to appreciate and feel in their body and move their body in a way to work out these stresses. Or maybe that's on the stage. Like I have a child who loves theater. Like maybe that is saying it's okay to take a break from these things that are scary and stressful and play somebody else for a while.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:18

It's okay to bring that energy and go there and say, I'm gonna, my safe place is gonna be over here where I can play and have fun and be somebody else for a minute before I come back and deal with these things. Like finding coping skills in the things that bring us joy and passion and and how to cultivate that and how to do it in a healthy way. Like if we can, if I can give that to these kids, then I'm gonna see that as a success. Because the truth of the matter is whether they are traumatized by the awful things their dad has had to experience or the unfortunate second vicarious trauma that we carry as a family. And I do have so much compassion and do wish they didn't have that. Any parent would.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:03

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:04

But there's going to be other things in their life that they need to learn resiliency for. And I want to model that. I want them to maybe come away with less shame and an understanding of their worth and where to go when they need help. We're in their faith with safe people by employing resources that help them in the ways they need that.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:36

And so a lot of those years is doing those things, employing those resources. It was sometime in there that I think Ashen had decided to try and find a different trauma counselor because he had reached a place with that therapist where they they just reached the extent of what they could do together. And we really need someone who had had more extensive trauma work. Um and I'm pretty sure he would be able to tell you more that there was a therapist in there. Keep in mind at this time, I'm still not really consistent in therapy. It's very spotty here or there. Um and it dawned on me though, like, oh my gosh, I you can get therapy through SARC. SARC. So SARC is the sexual assault resource center here, or are like our crisis rape center. And a lot of them offer free counseling for survivors at any point that you know, this abuse has happened at any point in their life, whether it's childhood or it's 40, 50 years ago, and you've never spoken about it to another person, that you can go to these centers and say, I need to talk to you.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:49

I'm a survivor and I need to talk. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:51

And that that is free to you in most cases, or at a very small um, you know, monetary amount. And so it dawned on me like, why haven't I ever thought of that? Because I'm kind of the friend with the resources. Like I gather resources. I love to be like, I don't know a lot about it, but I've heard about this place. So you could probably call them and find out more. Like I love to help direct people to resources that can help them. Like whether it's a coupon for your oil change or you know, the best doctor in town for we all need friends like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:22

And I love my friends like that. It's I'm like, did you just Google search that for me? I could have done that. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:28

Uncle maybe I did, or I just remember it from the last time I did it. Yes, exactly. And so I was like, I don't why haven't I thought about this? I'm like, we have got that's where you need to go. Yeah. That's what they specialize in. All the time. And so it was around then that he started doing or at least looking into it. Again, remember, our rule is I'm not going to make the appointment. It would just be saying, I think you should call them. I think that would be a great opportunity. And it's free.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:58

That's always a motivator.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:01

Like, again, we're still in a place where I'm like, I can't pay $200 a session for them. So finding those resources that are low cost or free, like take advantage of. There is no shame in that. They are literally there to help you. I want to help you.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:16

If you're listening and this is something that you didn't know about, um, I highly encourage you. I know where to do, just look up your local um crisis center type of resources. We use advocates all the time for friends of work and they can offer you um counseling. And so we're not supposed to or not. Even if it's just like critical visits, you know, I was gonna remember that uh her trouble was early 50 years ago. And we have different tons of assistance through a local organization here in the host area, and I have been able to help her with 24 seconds of therapy 50 years later. That's pretty incredible.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:01

And you're not taking someone else's spot. I know a lot of people who are who don't want to take advantage of these programs because they feel like there's someone else who needs it more. And what I would say to that is but you do too.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:14

And you're just as you're worthy of healing, just like anyone else. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:18

And so at the very least, call them up, go talk to an intake person and see if it's the right fit for you. That and you know what? You come away with maybe more sessions, or you come away knowing, like, um, I'm gonna try another resource, but there's no harm in trying. Um, so I was encouraging him to look into that at our local center. And at the same time, I have a dear friend who is learning how to be an a SARC advocate. And um and I remember telling her, hey, like I really I want to do that. And she looked at me and she was like, You're so silly. You need to go be the nurse. You're you're a nurse. And I was like, Oh yeah. You're right. Like I've thought about that before. I'd learned about it in nursing school, thought it was interesting. But in my area at the time when I was a brand new nurse, there was no training available. And then, you know, not originally my plan, but I started having very little babies very quickly thereafter. And so that fell off my radar for a while. And and I loved the work she was doing as an advocate. It it really just did something to my heart and soul of like, oh, I want to be a part of that. And she was like, Yeah, silly, you need to go be the nurse because I can't go be the nurse. And there's other people who can be the advocate, but they can't be the nurse.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:42

And you're talking about forensic nurses, correct?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:44

I'm talking about being forensic nurses. Yep. And so I talked, there was now a program at my hospital, and so I talked with that director and she told me a little bit about it. And then I on my own started applied for a grant and started taking courses at um Texas AM Center of Excellence and Forensic Nursing and took the adult adolescent course, followed by the pediatric course. And at the time, Ashton was also in graduate school, earning his master's because we like to make things complicated. And um why not? Right, exactly. Just throw it on there, everything's complicated already. Um, and so he was driving back and forth to Dallas for school, and I had these three little babies and going to school myself while working full-time, and he was still working full-time. Um, but started doing these classes and realizing, oh my goodness, this is all of these other experiences I've had in my life and in nursing have been leading to this. Yes, have been giving me the skills I need for this calling in hospice. Learning how to sit with people in hard places and learning, I don't always have the words, but my presence can be enough. My willingness to hear people out and grieve with them can be enough. And how to, you know, navigate some of the complexities of women's health through postpartum or LND. Um, those basic, like actual clinical skills that I could bring into the forensic space was gonna be very helpful. Um, and and all the things in my life that I had learned about trauma and grief and bereavement and navigating those things. Okay, those are now personal skills that have hopefully made me a little bit wiser that I can bring into this practice. And so once he finished his coursework and was no longer driving back and forth to Dallas, I was able to start with our forensic team in November of 2021. And man, that started a great adventure of me just being like, oh man, this is why I'm a nurse. This is why I felt the pull to do this. It's because I'm made to be a forensic nurse. I'm made to sit with people in these incredibly difficult spaces and hopefully most of the time find a way to meet one of their needs. Um now, forensic nurses are human too, and we're gonna have off nights and we're gonna have times when maybe because of our own things that we bring in, um, or maybe our we lack something that the you know the patient could benefit from. Sometimes we don't always do the job we wish to do. Yeah, I hope that most of the time I can leave the patient better than when they came in. Yeah. Whether that is saying I believe you. I may maybe I'm the only one in their life or the first person who can say, I believe you. Um and there's something I tell every single one of my patients. And when we are taking a history, it's not we we want some medical questions answered, and we we need some information to make sure we are making medical recommendations that are good for them and in line with their history. Um, but then we're also giving them an opportunity to tell what happened to them, to tell their story. And I think it's also super important to keep in mind that that is taking something from them. I'm asking them to do something really hard. Yes, I'm there to hopefully help, but I'm asking them to be really vulnerable with me. I'm asking them to tell me details that are really uncomfortable and potentially embarrassing and terrible to have to think about much less say out loud.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:54

And that that cost the patient something. And so when I'm asking a patient to do that for me, because it is really important so that I can understand how to help them medically going forward. But I want them to know that it's their voice is the most important part of any information that I will gather that day. And so I tell them that. You need to know that your voice and your story and how you tell it is the most important part of this. And so we're gonna take our time. And if you need a break or you need to pause, we're going to. If you say, I don't want any eruptions, I just want to tell you as fast as I can, we can do that. But I'm also gonna ask, um, I'm gonna, you know, write this down as close as word to word as I can. And I don't want to make any assumptions or fill in any blanks. So I may ask for clarification because your voice is the most important and it's what's going to help me care for you the best. Um, and that is something I feel not just as a healthcare provider, but as a person who, as a secondary survivor, as someone who loves a survivor. That voice in their experience, not just in retelling the story of what happened to them or how we have dealt with the trauma, vicarious trauma, but our voice in this healing journey is the most important part. And for every person, that's going to look different. Maybe that's something they only share with their therapist, and that's what's safest for them, and that is okay. Maybe that is something that they are able and wanting to share with other loved ones in their life, and that those loved ones and secondary survivors can share in that sacred witnessing with them. That's a wonderful thing. And then I also believe that secondary survivors need a space to talk about the vicarious trauma they've experienced and the grief that is watching someone you love struggle and heal from something so horrific. And so I guess that's what I would say to secondary survivors, both as someone who has found passion in doing this as a career, right? Caring for other people, and as a secondary survivor who lives this out daily with their family, like your voice is important too. And I know it is so it can be so disheartening and discouraging to feel like nobody else out there really understands because there is not, you know, globally not enough, but more than there has been in the past, focus on helping survivors and hearing them out, right? Like there's so much ground to make up there for sure better than it has been. Yet there it remains to be growth in the space for the loved ones of that survivor, of those secondary survivors. There's a need there for resources, for opportunities, for safe places for them to find healing and use their voice. And that's important. And in finding your own healing and seeking that out, you are supporting your survivor. And sometimes, at least for me, I'll I'll speak for myself. Sometimes that felt really selfish. And like that's not really where my focus should be because I am and who I am am a caretaker, and I'm a mom, and I am a nurse, and I am a spouse, um, all before I'm a secondary survivor. And so there is me giving and making sure people get where they need to be on time and going to work and helping people heal and helping them learn how to, you know, I also do L and D. So helping them how to feed their baby and encouraging a mom who's so stinking tired and think she can't do this, but she can, you know. And then coming home to a toddler who just wants his mom because he's a mama's boy, because that's our fourth child who we have now. And so there's just always this giving. Um, and so learning how to create space to one identify what my needs are and to meet those needs as well as communicate what they may be, that's been a hard thing to learn. It has felt really selfish or like it wasn't worthy of time because there were so many other important things that in the list of triages, like I'm triaging it above that, right? Yeah, but it was costing a lot, and I can't pour out from an empty cup, right? Haven't we always heard that? And I think we can hear that and be like, oh, that's so true. But how to actually make change in that, putting that into practice is hard. So for me, what that looked like is um going to consistent therapy. Finally. So in 2022, um, this is I'm working as a forensic nurse, and Ashton was in a time of struggle. And I came home one Saturday morning after working a night shift, and uh we got into an argument about something. I don't even remember what it was, to be honest. I was tired and probably kind of talking short about something maybe with a schedule or whatever that was going on, and it felt aggressive to him, and he was already not in a great place, so he didn't respond well, and I didn't respond well, and you know, then we're bickering. Well, it kind of set off this chain of right smack dab into some triggers that I you know, landmines I didn't expect to be there. And um, I mean, to be quite honest, like I'm not a wallflower, so I uh don't always back down, um, which that tenacity has definitely served as well because I don't give up easily, and that has really reinforced my ability to say no. Like, I'm I'm staying in this with you. I'm gonna stay in this with you and fight for healing um and not back down. So that's a good thing. But in this moment this morning, I should have maybe diffused the situation a little bit. I don't remember doing that. I remember kind of holding my ground and Ashton doing the same and it kind of leading to a place where it was like, oh man, I didn't know all of that was going on behind the scenes. And now we me and him have launched ourselves into a PTSE episode. Yeah, it's not great. And um he threatened to harm himself, and we had long before established kind of like a safety plan, and that included like okay, so during these episodes, afterwards, make contact with a therapist or a you know, a caregiver of his or a safe person to have some sort of grounding situation, especially if it involved me, like if I couldn't be that safe person at the time, if I was witnessing this episode or somehow involved in it, like that needed to be outsourced to somebody else who could help ground him. So we're gonna do that. And then, you know, we're gonna give your time, your brain and emotions time to reset by having you sleep. And then, you know, I'm gonna do what I can over the next 24 hours to really give you space to recover. And so that may mean changing my schedule, where maybe you were gonna watch the kids while I went to book club, but this this night I'm gonna not and give you the space to heal. So kind of like the safety plan, and there were contingencies for like, okay, so if XYZ happens and it's going down that road, that's when we go to the hospital or call 911 or whatever. And so um those things were triggered, those those um needs for those safety plans were set off. And I said, you know, I have to call 911 now. And I don't remember his response, but I remember being like, Oh shit, I really have to do this. Like I needed to, I knew it was important to, and yet we'd never had to. And this was gonna shake some things up. So I did. I got my kids were in the home at the time, and um, bless my sweet oldest child's heart, she had everybody in the back room, and I got them out. Had already called my dad, and my dad met me in the driveway and took my kiddos to where they didn't have to hear anything else. And um, I called 911 and I told him, like, I'm gonna call the police and I'm gonna go to the back porch to kind of create space. And the officer actually had told me, like, I actually want you to like go across the street. And so, long story short, um, that you know, if Ashton wishes to tell the rest of that, he can. But um, they came out and um established, took her to the hospital and decided, like, I think, you know, after talking with several um physicians and social workers, like, yeah, I think inpatient is a good idea. Let's do some med adjustment. And we were actually in agreement of like, yeah, actually, we've been feeling like med adjustment needs to happen. And if, you know, these episodes are leading to this point, like, yep, we need to call in the next level of help. So that was in 2022. And thank God for the support of family and friends who I made some phone calls and there were people there in a split second to help me with what I needed, some very specific things and to allow us to stay and help me watch the kids while I still continued to work. Um, and he was inpatient for maybe five or six days, and came out of that. We made, I think we both had some pretty significant realizations of like, wow, we have spent at that time, you know, I think like 13, 12 years of really working in this, and we've made some great strides, but holy moly, are there still some great strides to be made. Yeah. And made some decisions for our family as far as okay, we're gonna establish this uh some safety things going forward that are just gonna take some things off the table that will allow for further safety. Like, we're not ever going to have weapons in our home again. Um, it is just not worth it for us. That's a decision we came to that, you know, your when your brain is trying to lie to you about things, um, we decided to not have that risk in our home. And not every family will make that same decision, and I'm not here to judge that, but that was a choice we made for us then going forward. That that was not um, we were not going to do that. And so, and another thing we established um besides getting re-established with a psychiatrist that had been, we hadn't had that in a while. Um, and and so it's sucky to go inpatient. One of the benefits is that you pop right up to the top of the list to get that get in that wait list with the psychiatrist. Yeah, post-hospital stay. And so um, you know, if you have to look at the bright side of things, which is my nature, um, we popped right up to the top of that list instead of waiting another year. So Ashton was able to get ongoing med adjustment. Um, and then establishing protein quickly of like, all right, Rachel, self, we are going to do consistent therapy because there's a lot that you need to address for yourself. And um that is also gonna affect your family. Um, we also need to employ some other resources that we had dabbled in, like uh consistent body work, cranial sacral therapy, um, that we had seen be helpful, uh, but we were not utilizing probably like we should. So, right then established, all right. So Ash is with a psychiatrist, we're going to continue this um uh CBT therapy, talk therapy that will eventually be hopefully EMDR with a therapist every week. And we are gonna do body work for him every three weeks. Um, and I'm gonna have bodywork every month and gonna see a therapist every week. So after that, we established this little plan. We also put our two oldest children in therapy um to say, again, dragging things to the light. And I remember there were some um agencies that were came in to help us and uh assess what needs we and our children might have, what recommendations they could make. And when they sat down with me at first, they were like, okay, well, who else like knows about this? And I was like, oh, so my family, like my mom was there at the time. I'm like, so my family knows. Um, and they're like, Well, we'll need some like reference, we'll need some people who have like seen you parents. And I'm like, okay, great. So you can call this person and this person. They've known us for this amount of years and they know the full story. And this person, we've known them for this many years. Actually, she's known me since childhood, and she also knows the full story and has helped us with our kids. They've seen us parent and they've, you know, been with our kids alone. And and they were just like, What do you mean you have these people who know all of this? And I was like, Well, I know it's probably not the typical thing you hear, but for me, like, how can we expect to get better if I'm not we're not partnering with safe people? Yeah, and that's not a judgment on anyone else because I know how hard it is to find safe people. I know how hard it is to let those people in. I know how hard it is to say, this is what's going on, and it's kind of ugly. Yeah, but we need help in this place. But we could we we would not have found the healing that we've already found and the support we need to continue healing without that.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:48

And so you've had some sacred witnesses all this time, and that's beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:53

Thank you, God. Um, and I know that's hard to find. So I'm I'm that is such a gift that we have found that. Um, but I would also just encourage people like look for those people, pray for those people to be brought into your life. Yeah, um, be willing that when they are, I'm not saying don't vet them and test the waters, please do. Yes, a prudent person does that. Yes, yes, you know, and trust your gut. When your gut tells you this ain't the one, girl, it ain't the one. You'll know, you'll know. Um vet them, see how things go. But when those safe people present themselves in your life and they're willing to be there in a healthy way, like don't give in to the urge to run away because that can usher in so much incredible healing and support in your life that you didn't, I mean, we probably are desperate for that, but and you will also realize in ways you didn't even know you needed it. Um, and so we were able to again call on those people in our life, take these recommendations from the doctors and these um social workers who were evaluating things for us, employ some new plans, and that included maybe for the first time really making myself a priority and recognizing, like, yeah, man, I am an expert plate spinner, but it costs me a lot. And I am worthy of finding healthy ways to deal with that, and I'm worthy of identifying what my needs are, and I'm worthy of figuring out how to provide that for myself, doing some self-care and figuring out what that is. Like, I was like, I don't know what that means. Like, I get some pedicures every once in a while.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:43

That's that's what everyone thinks of. I'm not gonna lie. That's when you say self-care, they're like, here, get a manicure. Like, yeah, yeah, I'm talking about my nervous system, but like that's nice, that could be part of it, but girl, that could be right.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:59

So I actually my schedule was crazy as a night shift nurse, and um uh full disclosure, my dad is a child psychologist, and thank God he's incredibly supportive and wonderful when I have any questions about my kids, but it makes me a little bit, and he's he's excellent at what he does. So it makes um it's sometimes hard for me to find a top therapist that I'm like super comfortable with or like that I fully trust, right? Like I say this tongue in cheek, and not really to put anyone down, but I'm a little bit like of a therapy snob, right? I get it. I get it thought after, excellent dad who does what he does. And so um I'm just you know a little particular.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:51

Um, but I decided that the best thing with my schedule would be to give online therapy a try, right? Like so many advertisements over the years. You mean I can schedule this like whenever? Like that sounds amazing because I half the time I'm working opposite of the world. And so I pulled up the BetterHelp website, put in my information and what I was looking for in a therapist and kind of what was going on, and was like, all right, let's see if they can match me well. And um, I loved the fact that if I thought it wasn't a good match, I could try again, um, which is really hard to do when you've met with someone in person. I mean, like you can call them back.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:33

Yeah, you could just go on the app and be like, thumbs down, nope, I didn't like this one.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:37

You don't need to talk to them again. Yeah, absolutely. It sounds terrible.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:42

It is true.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:42

Yeah, a click, it's done. Okay, we're switching. I also knew like going to a brick and mortar place is hard. It had been proven to be hard for me in the past, just scheduling wise. Giving yourself out there, like there was just a whole lot of barriers, and I knew that I needed to really prioritize my. Myself. And so I was trying to make that as easy as possible. So if I could schedule meet with someone in my own home on my baby nap, like we were going to fit that in where we where we could, right? Um, and they matched me with a great therapist right away. She's a former nurse, so she gets that.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:16

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:17

She has worked with a lot of couples and individuals, and she is a person of faith, but she also meets with people who aren't of faith and definitely talked to me about like, is that something you want to incorporate? Because we can or we cannot. And you know, so we're able to incorporate that um because it's a very important part of my life. And I have been meeting with her at least once a month, if not twice a month. Um, and early on, it was every week for three years now since Ashton got out of the hospital. And it is a very important part of taking care of me. Yeah, there have been time periods where there's been a lot going on, and I've not met with her and I have felt the difference. And I've gone, nope, remember, remember why we did this? You've got to get back to at least once a month sitting down and going, This is what's going on. And I have learned over the last three years how to identify what my needs are, to accept the fact that my needs are also worthy of being heard and met, of how to communicate my needs, of how to put up boundaries in my marriage relationship and other relationships, and say no to the um gut response of walking on eggshells, right? Because that's like that's what I want to do. It's just easier. It's that enabler part of me that comes back, like, oh, let's walk on eggshells. No, like that's not that's not healthy, it really doesn't serve anyone. Um, and how to say, like, I have feelings and I get to have feelings about a lot of things, and I also get to have feelings about PTSD, and I get to have feelings about how it affects me, and I get to find ways to communicate that, and not in a way that's like screw you, it's all your fault. Yeah, but we can also acknowledge that this has an effect on me too, and that it's crappy, and then it's my responsibility to find ways to find that healing, but we can also partner together and make sure that we're not causing more harm to each other in that, right? Yep. So that has been something that I have grown a lot in. I'm still growing a lot in, um, but have also found my voice in a way to say, like, hey, this thing, that thing's hurtful. And I know you don't mean it. I know it comes out of this place of fear or hurt for you, but when that happens, it hurts me. And that's not fair. We need to find a different way to do this, right? Or to come back and say, like, I was responding out of fear, and I'm recognizing that I wasn't giving you the compassion that you needed in that moment, or to find the space to say, that made me angry and not be afraid that it's gonna set something off. I mean, it could, right? It could but to say, if it sets something off, it sets something off. I get to express my needs and in a healthy and polite way. Let's hope. Not that I'm always perfect at that, but there can be space to say this thing wasn't great for me and I'm mad about it. And hopefully we find a way together to not let it spiral out of control, but to not not let those walking on eggshells be my go-to anymore. Yeah, and that has been huge in my healing, and I think it has required work for both of us to kind of go like, oh, okay, okay. We are creating space in a different way, and really letting it be two people in this relationship and not mainly PTSD in the relationship, right? Um, and definitely that's gonna look different for different people. Um, but for me, it was a whole lot of learning how to speak up and going, yeah, there might be a response, but I'm allowed to have a response to yeah, you were able to find your voice.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:19

I'm hearing so much in your story. I'm just I'm just sitting here like blown away. Like you have so many perfect examples of of exactly what is required to be one a sacred witness and to defy silence that keeps you um suffering. But also, like you're you're just saying, like, look, healing is not linear. And that's that's the point I like to drive home, even for myself. I have to remind myself like it's not linear, there's not a straight point A to point B to get there. And I think it's beautiful that you shared so openly and thank you for that about just the struggle, like how real that has been for you. And then in 2022, that you know, he had to go inpatient again. Like, it's just the perfect example that healing is not just one and done. And that's my story too. Like, I've had many times where I've done really, really great for years, and then you have this kind of like flow of like, okay, well, this is something new that it's another layer of feeling that I have to uncover. And as a family member, supporting someone who's going through that, like you have your own hills and valleys that you have to overcome. And I thought of something I'm gonna share with you while you were talking. I was thinking about the verse in Esther that talks about perhaps you were born for this. Like, I think about that all the time. It's one of my favorite verses, but I read something earlier this week that just popped in my head while you were talking. And it says that um essentially Esther 414 is a call to action and a statement of purpose, reminding people that their present circumstances may be part of a larger divine plan, especially during times of crisis. And the whole time that you were talking, it chokes me up. The whole time you were talking, I'm like, this is literally an example of that. Like everything that you've been through and everything that your family's gone through has led you right to this moment right here. And look what you're doing to help others, and you're you're giving voice to something that people don't get to hear often as a as a family member, as a you're still a survivor too. So I I implore you to continue to tell your story. I'm so thankful that you came on to tell your story. Um, and we have so much more we can talk about, and we'll have to do a part two because we didn't even get to talk about the forensic aspect of all this. So stay tuned, everyone, for that. Um, and then you know, also stay tuned because um her lovely husband is gonna come share with us his his story. So I'm just so blown away by by all of this, and I really just think that it was no accident that that you came on to share this. And I know so many people are gonna be blessed by it and just um man, just don't stop using your voice. Please don't stop using your voice. You have a really, really powerful story. Um, so last thing I like to ask our guests is what do you do as a personal practice if you have one? Um, when you're carrying something and you recognize, okay, I'm carrying something that's not mine and it wasn't mine to carry, um, especially, you know, with forensics, which again, we're gonna have to talk about that another time, but but especially Karen, in in regards to your family and forensics or whatever it is, um, when you're carrying something that's not yours, do you have a personal practice or something that you can impart to our listeners that they can maybe try to release that, something that doesn't belong to them? What is your what is your personal experience with that and how do you like to do that at the end of your day?

SPEAKER_00 1:37:47

Yes. Um, so this is something I've really had to think a lot about and learn because when that first was asked to me like by my therapist, like, so what are you doing to care of you? I was like, I don't know. I don't know. But um it's something that I tried to teach, and God bless my older kids, because I feel like I've learned so much in parenting them that maybe I'm doing some things better with the younger two.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:09

Yeah, I have the same, I have the same sometimes that mom guilt's a little bit like you were the practice kid. I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:17

But really early on, I started teaching um my second little girl, my our third child, like how to teach deep breaths and to ground herself. And it's something that's brought me back of like, oh yeah, like I'm teaching her to do this, and I need to also do this for myself. And so, and now it is so wonderful because she's six now, almost seven. And if I'm getting stressed, I'm someone who talks out loud all the time. So if I'm processing something and I'm like, oh my gosh, we have to do this, and then oh, I'm so stressed. She'll be like, mommy, remember it's really helpful if we can put our hands over our heart and take a deep breath and you can breathe in and breathe out, you know. And she's like, I'm like, oh, like what a gift. Okay. So a lot of it is just breath work of taking that deep breath and holding it for five seconds, then letting it out for longer. Um, and then also a lot of hugs. So whether that is giving yourself that pressure of hug, for me, a lot of times it's like getting a hug for my kiddo. Of course, I've also taught them like we ask permission. So, can I give you a hug? And my baby now, that's how he asks for comfort. So if he's upset or stressed or lost a toy or bumped ahead or whatever, or maybe he wanted a popsicle and we don't have any and he's disappointed. How he asked for comfort to process his hug. So same thing. Like, okay, let's do a hug. We're gonna have 30 seconds, we're just gonna be there together. Take those deep breaths in and let it out, and really allow that tension for that hug to be in your body, and then we're releasing it. Um, so those are practices that I've learned to do for myself and also in my motherhood that have really done wonders for myself and also my children.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:10

That's really awesome. Would you be open and do the honor of guiding our listeners through just a little exercise like that, just to let go of what everything that they've heard and absorbed today. And just remember, if you've heard something that brought up strong feelings for you today, um, you are not alone. There are resources. And some of the things that Rachel mentioned, I will put in the show notes as well, um, just so that you have a place to go to look for those things. But just remember that you are not meant to carry these things alone. And um I think Rachel's a perfect example of that. So if you don't mind, Rachel, would you lead us through that as we say goodnight?

SPEAKER_00 1:40:46

Yeah, and I actually want to um use a way that I have taught my little kids. And sometimes it's good to teach ourselves that way too, especially if we're just learning. So I want you to put your hands together like you're holding a hot cup of cocoa. And if you feel comfortable closing your eyes, you can. But I want you to put your head down and smell that cocoa. We're gonna breathe in, smelling that cocoa for five seconds. And then it's really warm, so we're gonna blow it off and we're gonna blow over the top of that hot cocoa. And we're gonna do that again because that hot cocoa smells so good. We're gonna breathe in. And we're gonna cool it down by blowing out. And then you can do that several more times if you need to.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:44

Thank you, Rachel. What a blessing you are. I can't wait to talk again.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:48

Thank you so much for having me. I was really wonderful.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:50

You're so welcome. Thank you for being a sacred witness for today's episode. If this conversation has brought up difficult feelings, please remember to take care of yourself in whatever way you need. And you do not have to walk this alone, okay? So if you need additional support, please reach out to friends, to professional or resource in your community. Those resources listed in the show notes as well. So you're 12 matters to notice the state.