Lauren - When Presence is the Medicine

Start with a breath, stay for the truth. Valerie sits down with Lauren, a licensed professional counselor and former child life specialist, to unpack what it really means to be a sacred witness—how to show up for survivors without losing yourself to vicarious trauma. From emergency rooms and SANE exams to therapy rooms and courtrooms, we trace how the body stores stress, why memories fragment under threat, and how fight, flight, freeze, and fawn actually protect us in the moment.

Lauren shares the signs helpers often miss—intrusive thoughts, numbness, headaches, sleep swings, quiet rage—and offers clear ways to notice when the weight you’re carrying isn’t yours. We explore prevention that goes beyond posters: peer debriefing, boundaries that stick, flexible self-care rituals, and leadership that treats mental health as readiness. You’ll hear simple scripts for hard moments: what to say (and not say) to someone in pain, how to set kind limits when you can’t hold more, and how to widen the net so no one becomes the only lifeline.

For first responders, clinicians, and caregivers navigating stigma and policy, we talk candidly about confidentiality, reassignment, and finding safe spaces to release the day—prayer in the car, a walk in the sun, music that lets you cry, a quiet night with a book, even throwing ice in the backyard. The heart of it is presence: immediate debriefing when shock is fresh, deeper processing when the body is ready, and everyday rituals to let go of what doesn’t belong to you.

If you’ve ever taken someone’s story home in your shoulders, this conversation offers language, tools, and hope. Subscribe, share with a teammate who needs it, and leave a review with your favorite grounding practice so others can try it too.

Lauren Hollis is a Licensed Professional Counselor Supervisor who owns her own private practice in The Woodlands, Texas. She works with children, adolescents, couples and adult individuals. When she is not working, she is passionate about her faith in God, children and spending time with family. 

Lauren Hollis, MA, CCLS, RPT, LPC-S

Licensed Professional Counselor- Supervisor

Registered Play Therapist

Sacred Connections

www.laurenhollis.com

832-299-4830

Transcript

Grounding And Intentions

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome to Defiance of Silence, a sacred witness. This is a space for survivors, healers, and witnesses to share their truth. Here we stand against the silence that isolates us and embrace the silence that allows us to be truly heard. I'm Valerie, your host, a U.S. Army veteran, nurse, and a survivor. Together we will discover the power of being witnessed and the healing that follows. A gentle note though, this podcast includes conversations about sexual trauma and abuse. Please listen with care and honor your own well-being. Thank you for being here to witness today's conversation. Hi, everybody. Welcome. I'm really excited for you to meet my guest today. Her name is Lauren. She is a licensed professional counselor and supervisor of her own practice here in the Woodlands, Texas. She works with children, adolescents, couples, and adult individuals. When she's not working, she's passionate about her faith in God, children, and spending time with family. Welcome, Lauren.

SPEAKER_01 1:03

Hello, I'm so glad to be here.

SPEAKER_00 1:05

I'm so glad that you said yes to my invitation. Um, I think this is gonna be a really important conversation today for many reasons. Um, I'm just ready to get into it. So, as I like to do in the beginning of the episodes, I would love for us to take a moment just to ground ourselves and have our listeners dial in and tune in and be ready to listen. So, hand to heart, close our eyes, breathe in, and slowly breathe out. Engage your senses, think of think of something um beautiful, smell something, feel something, hear something. Thank you showing up for this conversation. Here we go. So, Lauren, it's great to see you again. Um so just to give a little bit of background for our listeners, wouldn't you tell us um about yourself, how you came to be a therapist, and what were you doing in your previous life before that?

SPEAKER_01 2:06

My many lives. Um, so I became a therapist approximately nine years ago. And before that, I was a child life specialist working at a children's hospital hospital for about 11 years. Um, for those that don't know what a child life specialist is, we work in hospitals with families and children with coping, getting through the hard things that happen at the hospitals, whether it's grief or diagnosis, just kind of how to get through those hard times in a developmentally appropriate way for the kids. Um, through that work, I loved counseling before, but I noticed there was a big lack of counseling needs for the medical community. And I worked with a lot of trauma and I was struggling to find good resources for those families outside of the hospital. And so I went back to school to become a counselor to try to bridge some of that gap in care for people that have experienced traumatic things.

Inside SANE Exams And Debriefing

SPEAKER_00 3:03

That's beautiful. And I can say that that's how I met you was working, you were working in the emergency department alongside of us emergency room nurses as a child life specialist, and you were extremely good at that job. So just so you know, I want to acknowledge that. Um, and and it's no no doubt that you became a counselor. It's really exciting that you did that. Um so I know that you mentioned to me before that you had worked alongside the sane nurses. And I've talked a little bit about what sane nursing is and forensic nursing um on previous episodes, but that is when adult or children, unfortunately, um, have to have a sexual assault nurse examiner do a sexual assault evidence collection. And that's a really tough thing for an adult, much less a child. And in your background, you have assisted children through those exams as well. So that not only supports the child and the family, but also the nurses that have to do those exams too. So um, can you talk a little bit about what that looked like as far as um because you know, the whole thing is that we witnessed this trauma and you mentioned you witnessed a lot of trauma. Um, how did you process that trauma for yourself when you had to do those hard things with the kids, especially?

SPEAKER_01 4:31

Yeah, I think you know, there's there's a lot that goes into those exams that you're hearing those stories and the nurses are hearing those stories. Sometimes there's a lot of waiting around with the patient as you're waiting for police officers and things like that, which just creates more anxiety in the families, the nurses, the staff, as you're all just waiting for this thing to happen. And sometimes it's the kids don't understand and they can be very distractible. And in those situations, I think for everybody it's much easier to move through that because they are playing and they're having a good time. And other situations where the kids are very scared and the family members are very scared and they don't understand, it can be hard. And I think a lot of times I would get together with the nurses and debrief and talk about it and talk about okay, how was that for you? That was awful, or you know, that's my worst nightmare as a mom. And so we would have those conversations and just share in that moment what we could have held on to and kept going on in our day that could potentially have led to me bringing it home. But releasing that there with people that experienced the same situation really helps. Um I think it was helpful for them as well. I think also I was able to move through some of those situations better because I've never had a same nurse that wasn't compassionate and loving and patient with the kids. You all are trained so well in how to be there that it made it easier knowing that everybody's best interest was on a kid. Yeah. And that they weren't trying to rush it and move through, but yeah, really be there. And so we're trying to provide the best care in that given moment. And so that got me through some of it as well in a really tough situation.

Defining Vicarious Trauma And Its Costs

SPEAKER_00 6:27

Yeah, there's a knowing between um caregivers and co-workers and socially health care providers when we all like have that look like that was that was a lot. That was a hard one, you know. Um, because in the moment you can't really break down, you can't go there because you've got to do your job. So then we have choices to make. We either carry it home with us or we have to find some way to process it through. And I've I was not always good at doing that. So this journey for me has been about learning how to do that, um, not only in my personal life, but in my professional life as well, just letting go of those things that you know we we do things um to our patients sometimes in the in the name of doing what's best for them. And it doesn't really feel that way to the patient. And I think sometimes that piece is missing. So I really love what child life specialists bring to the table for that and and for the nurses too. So thank you for that. As a therapist now in your own private practice, what do you see most commonly as the cost of this vicarious trauma? And can you actually can you explain a little bit what vicarious trauma is and and what you've seen in your practice is the cost of that vicarious trauma? Whether it be a healthcare worker, a mother, a father, another therapist, yourself.

SPEAKER_01 7:48

Yeah, vicarious trauma is really when somebody experiences similar symptoms or big emotional distress from hearing somebody that's been through something traumatic and they necessarily didn't experience that with them. They might have experienced something similar or nothing at all, but they end up having the same type of symptoms and distress as if they had experienced that traumatic event. And I think it's very common for that to happen with healthcare workers, law enforcement responders, mental health professionals, people that that is their job to be around those environments and hear those stories pretty frequently. Um and I think it's not talked about enough on how to prevent that. We just expect everybody to just know how to cope with it and do this job and move on and it not affect you. But it does. It, you know, these are human lives and situations and emotions that run high. And it's hard sometimes to not let that impact you. Um, you know, it impacts everybody a little bit differently, but some of the ways that it impacts is you know, start that person that didn't experience it gets intrusive thoughts about what they heard, or feeling numb and detached from emotions, or the opposite, an increase in emotions and not knowing how to regulate those emotions in their body and the anxiety that it brings up. Um, a lot of times there's physical symptoms of headaches and stomach aches and tired. Yeah. The body holds on to stress, the body holds on to trauma and feelings, and it comes out that way sometimes without us even realizing that's what's happening. Yeah. Um, sleep patterns can get disturbed, eating patterns, all right. You're nailing all of them.

Body Signals, Burnout, And Awareness

SPEAKER_00 9:45

You are definitely nailing all of them. For me, it was a a lot of shoulder and like neck, like my shoulders. And when I realized, like, oh, it's from carrying other people's burdens. Like those are things that that that was really like the most prominent, like, hey, my body's keeping the score for so many things. But specifically when it came to being a provider, a healthcare provider, um, and what I would call people in these professions are healers. And you you said something interesting to me that we don't really prevent the vicarious trauma, we just kind of deal with it. If we are even aware of it or acknowledge it, I know I don't think I even heard that term for until a few years ago. And I was like, wait a minute. I'm numb from all, you know, when you see so many things, um, especially our first responders, it it is heartbreaking to me that they are just expected to just keep trucking on, you know, after seeing something so horrific and having spent some time with first responders too, and seeing like their PTS um symptoms and their struggles, it does make me wonder is there a bigger piece of this conversation that we're missing regarding prevention? But I I do know that I'm seeing it more now in healthcare, at least especially in the forensic realm. Like one of the big parts of the training was be aware of this vicarious trauma, be aware that it's okay to take breaks and it's okay to say you're not okay, and it's okay to step away. And I've never had any training um in nursing school or any otherwise that say anything like that until I started doing forensic training. And it was like, you can take a break, you don't, and then they actually went into a big module on this vicarious trauma, and it is an ongoing, growing conversation that I think is important. But I I'm just wondering, is it only in forensics where we're learning this or other is EMS picking this up or the police picking this up? And what work could we do better um to help prevent rather than just treat? And I just think it's because we're not designed to care, we're not designed to do this all the time. And I include therapists in that because you guys are seeing, so you're getting it like there's original trauma. So say I witness something, then I get vicarious trauma, and then I'm like, Lauren, help me. So you're getting it like one, two, three down the line or more. Um, yeah, and then you know, the therapists need therapists, like what the pattern in all this and the theme that I hear is that like we need each other, we need each other. Like that's that's what sticks out to me the most. But yet we it's not talked about, and we carry it in silence, um, and then suffer with it. And it's it's so painful to feel like you're the only one. I must something must be wrong with me because I'm experiencing these weird feelings about you know, this child dying at work or or whatever. Um, because everyone else seems to be just moving along and doing their day, and really that are so dysfunctional, but you don't know that you so you're like, okay, well, I guess I'm gonna just not think about this either. So um, thank you for explaining that. And can I ask you as a therapist, have you ever had any situations that you've had to like, hey, I need to talk to somebody about this?

SPEAKER_01 13:20

Yes, absolutely. And I think, you know, to kind of go back on your point with healthcare, I never heard this term when I worked in the hospital. And those I I can say did not do a good job of learning how to not bring it home after those days where we've lost a child or had a really traumatic. And so when I got into mental health, like, oh, that's what I was experiencing all those times. Um, and so I think that shift for me was one being educated about what it was to be able to start implementing um that are healthy kind of boundaries between work and life. And so I've done a much better job as a therapist than I did in the past, but there's definitely some where the ones that specifically stick out where they have a lot of detail in their trauma, where I have some clients that are very mindful in the moment during the traumatic event, and so they take in a lot and absorb a lot of details, and that needs to be processed. And sometimes those details are really hard to hear because their emotion comes out in it as well.

SPEAKER_00 14:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:32

And with trauma therapy, it's really important that we don't just discuss the situation once, but we repeatedly go over it multiple times until it's not really big in their body anymore. And so sometimes with those, I hear those details over and over again.

SPEAKER_00 14:49

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 14:50

And those are the ones that are hard for me to really separate. Um, and I'll take a little bit of extra time before I go home to try to separate that work and life, or I'll pray before I go home, turn on some music, something to get my mind off of it so that image doesn't linger when I leave the job.

SPEAKER_00 15:10

Yeah, that's important and powerful. Um so a couple of other things I was gonna ask you about as a therapist is what are some of the signs that somebody, like if somebody's listening right now, like like me several years ago, I didn't realize this is what was happening. What are some of the things that, I mean, you mentioned a few of them before, like changes in sleep, intrusive thoughts, but what are some of the things, even as like caregivers or someone that lives with a family member that's a healthcare worker, what are things we should be on the lookout for that might indicate that you need to talk to somebody?

SPEAKER_01 15:44

Great question. I think, you know, especially if it's somebody that you're close to where you see on a pretty regular basis, if you're starting to see changes in them, if they used to be able to communicate really well and you're seeing them disconnected or withdrawn, numbing out a little bit more, maybe they're drinking a little bit too much or staying out late, if you're noticing the changes in their sleep patterns or they're having a really hard time with their normal activities of daily living with hygiene and and eating. They used to work out and now they don't. Yeah. Um, so kind of some of those changes in their normal behavior, or all of a sudden, like we kind of talked about headaches, body aches, tension, you know, stomach aches. Maybe they've expressed some type of survivor's guilt or shame around, oh, I haven't experienced these things, it's so bad that I have it, you know. Um I think disconnecting is a big one.

unknown 16:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:45

Or maybe it's really explosive, you know, maybe they have really big, you know, kind of fight, flight, freeze, gone, all those, you know, trauma responses. Maybe some of that gets activated when now listen they're really angry or they're raging, they're worried all the time, and that's just not the normal personality.

Trauma Responses: Fight, Flight, Freeze, Fawn

SPEAKER_00 17:05

Yeah, those are those are big things. And if when you live with somebody, it can seem subtle. I know like it's easy to, you know, it's like the frog in the boiling water, it's just warming up and warming up, and you don't realize it's boiling. So when you live with somebody that's having subtle changes and you think they just had a bad day at work today, or it's just this or just that. And then like when you can step back and get like a bigger view, it's like, oh, this is probably what's going on. And you can't make somebody talk about it, you can't make somebody go see somebody. But I think if you can witness them and just say, I know this is hard for you, at least in my experience, when you're ready to talk, but I just want to acknowledge that it's there and perhaps maybe be open for you to be open to the possibility that it is there and you are storing it in your body somewhere. But I know when those things first began um being conversations for me, I was not open to it. I thought it was weird. And I'm like, you can't convince me that my headache is related to this. Like it sounds silly now for me even to say out loud because I'm 100% convinced that all of those things had a reason. Um, and it's difficult when you see a coworker suffering that way too. Because once you start to get free from that and you realize, like, okay, I process this workday different than somebody else. Um, and you see it in your coworkers. And I'm noticing now too in the hospitals, there's a little bit more implementation going on as far as mental health. So they're offering like free meditation apps. And here's some um, you know, we have a code lilac team, is what they call it at our at our hospital, where you can literally call this phone number and they have a whole team of trained people that can help you get resources or just listen to you debrief if that's you know, they can be a sacred witness. And I don't know if they know that that's what they're doing, but that's I think that's beautiful and important. And so in in crisis care, like a couple of things you said that were interesting. First, you mentioned um the trauma responses. If it's not too much, could you just do like a brief overview of what a trauma response is?

SPEAKER_01 19:19

So a trauma response is exactly that, a response that our bodies have because of something traumatic that we've witnessed or experienced. And there's four typical trauma responses white, white, freeze, and now fawn. Fawn didn't it used to be an existing thing, but now it is. And so it's it feels involuntary, something that is an automatic response that we have because of a highly distressing situation.

SPEAKER_00 19:48

And if I'm understanding the way that trauma responses work, is we we don't get to choose, right? Like our nervous system is choosing for us, our brain is going, guess what? I'm gonna freeze. So then comes with that. Why did I freeze? I can't believe I froze. I'm so mad. And and then you have the very typical response. Well, if that was happening to me, I would have done this or done that. But you don't actually get to choose. So you can fight, which means you're gonna flee, you're gonna fight, excuse me. You're gonna fight until whatever the threat is gone, right? And then freeze. Everybody I think knows those. Um, but when you talk about um fawn, that is new to the community. I think I you would know more than I, but I know it's just been in recent years. So when you can look back now that I've done a little bit of work, I can look back on parts of my life and go, I didn't know at that time that that was a trauma response, and now it totally makes sense. So can you explain what fawning is?

SPEAKER_01 20:53

Fawning is the best way I can describe it is kind of a being submissive to the situation. So not good boundaries around the situation, maybe people pleasing or becoming codependent in that situation to whatever's happening. You give into it. Um and you're right, like there you don't get to choose. Yeah, it's your natural response.

SPEAKER_00 21:19

That's an effort to stay safe, correct? Like so that fawning is cooperating or whatever is is going on to keep yourself safe, whether it's emotionally, physically, or whatever, right? Yes.

How Trauma Gets Stuck And Distorts Memory

SPEAKER_01 21:32

Did I just say that all of the responses? Yes, all of the responses are your body and brain's way of trying to protect you in that situation. So if you're freezing, your body is thinking, oh, I need to dissociate or I need to stay still and numb out to protect me. It's not something we consciously think about doing, it's just what happens in our nervous system that it's trying to protect you. Even in that moment, it might not be the right response, but yeah, we can't do anything about it.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

Yeah. And so I think, I mean, and I'm still trying to understand how trauma works. I mean, it's so fascinating to me. And I feel like the more I talk about this, the more my own stuff comes up, and I'm able to just let it go because I'm like, now I understand why it happened. So um, in understanding how trauma works, and you say like the nervous system is making these decisions and it's trying to keep you safe, what happens when that trauma gets stuck in the nervous system and it doesn't move through the body?

SPEAKER_01 22:32

I mean, I think a number of things can happen. Um, and we can talk about the type of therapy that helps with that. That's amazing. But our connections in those situations can sometimes get crossed. So if we're frozen or we're fighting, our brain is focusing on certain things in that moment. And whether it's dissociating and you don't actually experience it the way that it's happening, that memory can get distorted. The sensations, the senses in your body can get heightened. And so maybe in that moment as well, you get stuck on a certain sense that now these can be triggers for you later on.

unknown 23:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:11

Because your body's trying to protect and it focuses on different things in order to protect you. And so chemical makeup can change, our memories can get crossed, the way we retain that information can get distorted. Um, I'm sure you've heard of the terminology cognitive distortions, which are mixed-up thinking patterns. Yeah. And so sometimes we can get cognitive distortions about the event that took place because of the response that our nervous system had.

Sacred Witnessing: Immediate Vs Ongoing Care

SPEAKER_00 23:39

And that's really interesting to me because to me, I think, and especially working as a forensic nurse, sometimes, you know, I see my patients going, Wait, hold on. I how come I don't know, like I don't remember this part, or no, it was this. And and then they get flustered and they're mad at themselves for not being able to recount. And there's a disconnect for trying to help them understand, like, that your body hasn't like categorized those memories the right way. Like, this is totally normal. And I got the privilege of um observing some courtroom time a couple of weeks ago, and the sane nurse had to testify um regarding the patient's statement. And as a forensic nurse, we're giving the description to the jury of what this sane nurse does. What is the exam? What is the forensic nurse assessment? What is the all of these different things? And the defense, I just I was sitting in the back just going like, wow, and the defense was really picking apart that this story to them, the story I say in quotes, to them was um just so straightforward and flat and simple. And and the the forensic nurse did such a good job of explaining, well, there's trauma responses, and it doesn't mean that they because she didn't document that the patient was hysterically crying, you know, she was very calm and telling this, you know, story, but it was fragmented, and that's totally a normal response. Um, so we not only have to convince our patient that that's a normal response, like they'll say, I should, I feel like I should be more upset. Like, what's wrong with me? Like, you know, or you have to bring them back to their bodies because they are just gone. Um, yeah, but the defense, I was just shocked at how they tried to pick that apart. And she just laid it down, like, this is a trauma response, this is completely normal. And like I felt like the mic dropped, and I was like, wow, I was blown away at how she explained it. And it was just so fascinating to me. Um, and I think a lot of people just don't know that. Like, I didn't realize how the that cognitive um you said cognitive distortion, right? Is that what you said? Yeah, yes, okay. So I just want to say it right. Um, that that cognitive distortion can last for a long time. It's not just in the immediate trauma, right? So then as a trauma survivor, you start questioning, well, is that really what happens? So then there's like a whole nother element to that, which is why we need therapy. People, if you need therapy, get therapy. It's so good. Um, so it actually is, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:17

I'm sorry, it is so normal when we're doing trauma work that so many cognitive distortions around either themselves or the perpetrator, the person, or the situation itself and the meaning behind it all at that point. Like usually in the very beginning, there's a lot of mixed-up thinking patterns about it.

SPEAKER_02 26:39

Right.

SPEAKER_01 26:40

And our job as a therapist is not to judge those because they've gotten stuck in there because of a trauma response, but to let them process through that and work through that to find what is the actual situation? What do you actually believe about yourself? Not this mixed-up thinking pattern because of the situation. And so it takes time, it does not happen easily, and it's not like anybody asks to have those in their mind. They're just there.

SPEAKER_00 27:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:09

And as you as you grow and heal for your trauma, they get sorted out.

SPEAKER_00 27:13

So let me ask you this question. Um, regarding like crisis care therapy and whether it's like what is the benefit? I mean, it sounds silly to say it that simply, but having a sacred witness in crisis care, like it have you seen or do you have an example of a difference that it makes when somebody has a sacred witness in the immediate, like the trauma has just happened, like this has just happened, say it's fresh. I mean, it hasn't sat in our body for 15 years. You know, when somebody experiences something and they're able to find their voice and say, this just happened to me, or or it's a collective trauma, like when we witness, you know, unfortunately, a school shooting or something like that, when people have a sacred witness and have a witness in that crisis care moment. Is there a difference in how that's processed versus somebody who just goes home and goes, you know what, I'm I I'm not gonna think about this?

First Responders, Stigma, And Access To Help

SPEAKER_01 28:11

Yeah, I think there's multiple pieces to that question. Um I think it's important to have what I consider like a debriefing of a sacred witness right after something traumatic has happened. Because you're still taking in all the events and processing everything that you just experienced. And it's good to get out that immediate reaction and that immediate, what did I just see? What did I just experience? But then as we sit with the trauma longer, we're gonna process it differently. It's gonna sit in our body a little bit differently, and so the immediate is a debriefing, not a full, let's talk through everything you're thinking and feeling. Because we don't even really know in that moment everything we're thinking and feeling. True. And then as you sit in it for a little while, that's when you start really understanding how you felt and what you thought in those moments. And so that sacred witness in that moment needs to be somebody that can really just let you sit in those feelings, not doing kind of the crisis management of getting it all out of your body, but let's sit with that feeling and how scary that must have been for you. Let's sit with those thoughts. What are you thinking, right? Then, now, how is that going to impact you in the future? And then the third part of that question of if somebody has sat with it for 15 years, well, that's been 15 years of your body holding on to all the distress, the trauma, the impact that it's had on you because it's if it's dressing enough, it's gonna have an impact on you, whether that's physically, emotionally, the way that you think about yourself, the world, and others. And that's gonna change the way that you respond in other situations or respond to yourself, how you respond with relationships. Um, it will take a toll in whichever direction based on that trauma that you experienced by not getting it out of the body for that long.

SPEAKER_00 30:09

Yeah. And it as you were talking, I was I was just thinking about how in particular with like first responders, I was thinking about police and first responders that see and EMS that see repeatedly back to back to back to back to back to back. I mean, untold stories, like just yeah, so many. And if they don't get the care that they need in the moment, so you've not only held something in for 15, 20 years, a whole career, you've held multiple things in for that long. And we all know that's a recipe for burnout, but it's beyond burnout to me. That I'm just really feeling the sense that there's less and less people going into law enforcement, there's less and less people going into these um public service roles because we're seeing higher rates of suicide and high like all of these things, despite prevention, you know, raising awareness. But I've just struggled with raising awareness doesn't really fix our problem. Raising awareness is great. We need to know that these things are happening, but can we talk about why they're happening in this space where um I'm not saying somebody just me being a witness to somebody and saying that must have been really hard because I'm not a therapist, and I think people get confused too that they don't know what to say, so they just don't go there. But yeah, how do you teach somebody to be that witness? And like as a therapist, because you have to be careful, there are tons of I want to give everybody advice. I just want to be like, This worked for me. I mean, I'll just say it. Like, that's part of it. I've that's some stuff I've worked through with codependency and other things I've worked through. Um, I can't fix everybody, but I'm overcoming the fear part of like, I don't want to say the wrong thing now. Before I would just say whatever I felt in the moment was like, I think this will help you. And it's it's silly now to think about that. It's kind of embarrassing. But now that I'm have more awareness around it, like as a therapist, what would you recommend? Two things. One, what should people definitely never ever say? And two, what do they say if they don't know what to say in a moment where you've witnessed you're witnessing someone else's pain? I didn't necessarily witness a traumatic event, but I know that you did, and I want to be here for you. What do I do?

SPEAKER_01 32:24

That's a really great question. Yeah, and I think sometimes you don't have to say anything, you can just be there with them. Yes, you can sit with them, you can let them share. If you feel I think people get uncomfortable in silence, but sometimes the silence is okay for them, and that's what they need. I think the one thing to remember about trauma, and you know, this goes with grief too, is there's nothing you can tell somebody that is going to take it away from them. Yeah, they've experienced it, their feelings are theirs, and you can't fix it. But what you can do is sit in it with them and listen, and now they don't feel alone, now they feel heard, now they're getting it out of their body and releasing it. The more we keep it in, the bigger and bigger and bigger it gets.

SPEAKER_02 33:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:14

And so you don't even need to say anything. If you feel like you do, you say, I'm here. I hear you.

unknown 33:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:22

Is there anything you need? Right? That's it.

SPEAKER_00 33:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:26

And I think what you don't want to say is you'll be fine, just keep going on in your day. Right? Like, you don't want to diminish them by, oh, it wasn't that bad. Other people found it worse, right? That that does not validate somebody's experience. And honestly, probably will deter them from wanting to get that help and that support. At least from you for sure.

unknown 33:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:49

So I think if you don't know what to say, you just don't say anything. But just let them know whatever they're feeling is absolutely okay.

unknown 33:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:58

And I think, you know, going back to what you were talking about with law enforcement, it's hard. I work with responders in law enforcement because, like you said, it's one thing after another. And same with military, they have to shut it off during those times. They cannot allow themselves to feel because they have a job to do. And so then it's them finding that space with that person that can hear it. And sometimes in those situations, they see some pretty graphic things, and the people that they would want to be their sacred witness can't always hear it. It's hard. It's not not everybody can hear those things that they're needing to release. And so then they just keep it in. And then the next thing comes up and they go, Well, it's in the path, I'm gonna shove that down because I've got to keep going forward. Yeah. And, you know, I think the the gap is slowly starting to close, but many first responders in law enforcement do not seek therapy because it goes into their notes and it gets written down and their fear of their job is on the line. And so they don't get to use the services that are available to them out of fear of that.

What To Say, What Not To Say

SPEAKER_00 35:10

And that's something I mean, you you segued right into my next question. I was gonna say, so when law enforcement does see a therapist, I know that is part of the stigma. It's so if we're wanting our first responders to take advantage of these options, and why do they have to feel threatened that for normal feelings that they are gonna be pulled from the job? And I have learned for myself, because it was important for me to get some clarity on some things for my my profession as well, because I was very burnt out as well. And once I realized, like, if I could talk about the things that were burning me out, like somehow the burnout lifted because I was talking about the things instead of stuffing them in and really trying to help my coworkers to understand that as well, um, and kind of spur each other on. And when you've got a good group of peer support that you can do that, and I know law enforcement has all these things in place, and I don't work in law enforcement, and I don't know why we keep talking about law enforcement, but it just keeps coming up. But yeah, but but it's important because I see it and I have friends that are in law enforcement, and I've I've heard their stories, and I'm just floored that they've been able to hold on this long to those stories because it's it's there's just no words to describe some of the things that they've seen and had to do um that they go home and cook dinner and they can't talk about, you know. So if they're able to take care of take care of themselves and get these services, like where's the disconnect between like having this fear? Is that actually a real thing? Can they lose their jobs over how they're feeling mentally? Obviously, if they're unsafe wanting to harm someone else, I get that part, but just for having those normal feelings and maybe the PTSD symptoms type stuff, can they be pulled from duty for that?

SPEAKER_01 37:12

They will get reassigned to other areas that doesn't require them holding a gun, right? That's the concern in that specific job field is if you're depressed or you have PTSD, are you fit to be able to hold a handgun and go out and keep everybody safe and yourself? And so, you know, I don't think they'll necessarily get fired, lose their job, but they will get reassigned to something that's um more death duty, something like that, until they can get cleared by the counselor.

SPEAKER_00 37:46

So there's just a more stigma to bust through because it's just more things that then everybody knows what's going on, even though everyone's experiencing it. And that's the part that kills me is everyone knows that this is what's happening and everyone's experiencing it, yet we're going to isolate if you admit these things. And it's just, I think there just needs to be so much more education, like you said, and prevention on the front end. And I just feel so um helpless sometimes regarding that. And that brings me to kind of my next point is when you get to the point where you're wanting to witness people and be there for them, or you need a witness, um, and things become overwhelming as a witness, and you start to feel helpless and like I can't do anything about this. Is that kind of dipping into that vicarious trauma as well? Like maybe that's something that someone needs to look at if you're if you are holding space. And I've I've ran into that a few times just doing this podcast. I'm like, whoo, okay, this this was a lot, and this story was a lot, and it was amazing and beautiful, and they're here and I'm proud of them. And I have found myself between work and podcasting and just um volunteer work that I do, sometimes holding all that space. I literally have to practice what I preach about getting rid of that. So as soon as I hear myself saying, Man, I just feel helpless about this person or this situation, I realize that I'm holding on to something.

Letting Go Of What You Can’t Control

SPEAKER_01 39:16

Yeah, yeah. It's really hard. It's really hard not to do that. And I think it's when you you have to be very self-aware of how much am I thinking about what I heard the next day and the next day.

SPEAKER_00 39:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:30

Am I able to say, okay, I've heard it, I held that space, I feel for them, but I'm not physically feeling, I'm not thinking about it consistently. That's when it can start turning into that vicarious trauma. And you know, something I talk to people a lot about that can go with this and lots of different situations is we have to remember what we are and aren't in control of. And me holding on to somebody else's emotional state and carrying that burden. Does not do anything for them because it is out of my control. Their trauma is out of my control, how they're processing, what they feel is out of my control, and hanging on to that won't change anything for them. It just impacts me. And so having to find ways to say, okay, I've got to let go because there's nothing I can do about it. It's their journey. They have to go through it. Um, and that can be said for lots of different situations, you know, in the hospital setting or wherever it may be, we feel awful that people are going through these situations, but that won't change it for them.

SPEAKER_00 40:36

Yeah. Yeah, it's a true statement for sure. It's hard. It's hard. It is hard. And I like how you said it just really just it kind of burdens you because then you're thinking about it. Is there a period that's normal? Say, like you do witness somebody, obviously, we're not going to be able to just switch it off. So, what amount of like still thinking about it as we're processing it through and releasing it for ourselves for that person? What amount of that would be considered appropriate or normal or typical, I should say?

SPEAKER_01 41:09

Yeah, I mean, I think that's a great question. I think it's hard to answer because everybody's so different. And I think it varies depending on the amount that you're thinking about it. You know, I would say there's situations I've heard years ago that as we're talking, it popped in my head, right? But I'm not going to carry the weight of it. I just still remember it. And so I think, you know, giving yourself that space for a couple days to know and and feel, and then you go, okay, now it's time to move through. It's still gonna, you're still gonna have reminders of it here and there that pop up, but is the weight of it still there? If the weight after a couple of days is still there, okay, you haven't you haven't released it, you're still holding on to that burden.

SPEAKER_00 41:52

Yeah, that's good to know. I've noticed for myself, it physically comes out in my body in exhaustion. Like I just feel complete collapse, like, oop, okay, I need a day to rest. And then I need to walk and get sunshine, and I need to have my electronics off and I need to rest. And then I'm like good as new the next day. But I've just realized a pattern with myself when I've done a lot of that. That for me, I've I think noticing that um it takes me a full day to recover from something big like that. And that kind of interrupts life sometimes, which leads you to want to ignore because I don't have time for this. And so it's been a real life lesson for me to slow down. I think people that know me would say, you don't slow down ever. And so this is just part of that, like forced to slow down and really just breathe and rest and let it move through my own body because it carried something. And I've always just wondered about that appropriate time. Like, is a day long enough? Two days? Like, when does it start to get too long? So that helps me. Thank you.

Practical Self‑Care And Boundaries

SPEAKER_01 42:59

Um, yeah, and I think you know, it's hard to slow down life, but I tell people even just five or ten minutes to slow down and allow yourself to process it. Yeah, it doesn't have to be hours. People think they have to have hours to sit and meditate and journal and do all the things. If you have five minutes, just take the five minutes to go breathe, to go do the grounding, to do anything to try to release it.

SPEAKER_00 43:22

Yeah. I think that's been a big learning curve for me. I thought I had to have this like specific practice, the same thing all the time. And I have found out that as I've grown, I've gotten more flexible with in this situation, you know what? I needed to go outside and like deep breathing, wave my arms around and get rid of, you know, that's what I need to do. Or I need to go sit contemplatively on my front porch for 30 minutes and release some tears. Like it's different, it's different for every situation. So um that's just new and interesting thing to explore. And I would encourage listeners to be curious about, maybe start to notice when you do hold space for somebody, where do you feel it in your own body and what does that mean? And how do you need to process that through? So um I I find it to be very interesting, the different things that I hear or witness, how they need different things for me to be free, like to let it go. And so I don't think there's like a cookie cutter way, but I was very curious about is this normal? Am I doing this right? Um, so a couple other questions here before we finish up. I appreciate your time so much. Um, what would self-care look like for somebody that is coming out of this um like witnessing? And we kind of just talked about a little bit, like in your opinion, what would a good self-care routine look like?

SPEAKER_01 44:49

Yeah, great question. I think it's making the time for yourself, you know, a couple minutes, whenever. But maybe it's meditating, journaling. If you are somebody that prays, praying about it. You know, I'm like you, I like to get outside. So taking a walk, even just digging your feet into the grass and feeling you know, nature and the sun. Um, mindfulness is you know, this hot topic that's been talked about the last, you know, 10 years or so. And really, that is just a state of being present in the moment. So being aware of all your senses, being aware of what you're thinking and giving yourself that time. So maybe you need to scream it out. Maybe you need to done that.

SPEAKER_00 45:30

Yep. Yep. And that feels really good. If you haven't done it, I highly recommend. Just don't scare anyone. You have to find somewhere where it's saying.

SPEAKER_01 45:39

Yeah, go to a closet, a garage, and scream a car. I've done that before. Yes. Um, I think it's also, you know, if you need to find a support group that for survivors of something or witness of something, or even just a support group for your profession, yeah. Um, that can be really helpful. Setting good boundaries for yourself is really helpful coming out of being a witness where you give yourself that space and then you move on.

SPEAKER_02 46:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:07

You you find that time and then let yourself know, okay, now it's time to go on to the next thing in my day, and I'm not going to keep going with it. So whether that's at work or that's at a school event, whatever it may be, you have that separation. Um, sometimes music can be that thing to provide that separation.

SPEAKER_00 46:26

Music is very powerful. Do you have any words of wisdom for someone? Let's say that you held some space for somebody, and and that particular person or situation is still kind of clinging on and like seeking you out in a way where you're having to set a boundary for yourself and you're like, I've already witnessed this. Um, I've gotten what much better at it. But for our listeners, I know this is a really hard thing, and I hear people say a lot, but but I feel bad for them. And I just want to, I want to hear them. You know, they keep reaching out to me about the same thing. And it's like, do you have any words of wisdom or maybe some verbiage that you could use to gently tell somebody that, you know, this is the boundary for you? Um, and first we have to get over ourselves because we do have to set that boundary. And if it offends you that I can't hold the space for you, but I'm a very direct person and I don't have a problem saying that, but I just hear so much and and I have friends that are like, I don't want to hurt their feelings. So as a therapist, what are some maybe some short sentences or ways that you would advise somebody approach a situation like that?

SPEAKER_01 47:36

Yeah, that's it's a hard, delicate situation, right? And the boundaries are good. I will pretty much tell them that put it on you, right? And it's not on them. And letting a simple statement as I'm not in a place right now to be able to help you or support you at the moment. I'm gonna reach out when I feel like I'm in a better place to be able to support you in what you're going through. Um, a statement of I'm having a difficult time processing and I just need a few days, right? Or I need a little bit of time as I'm learning how to cope with being a supporter, you know, just letting them know where you're at that you're not a burden, but I need this space for myself. Um, is there somebody else that can be a support to you that can also support you while I'm learning how to take care of myself in this situation?

SPEAKER_00 48:31

That's good, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:33

So I think people that have been through trauma, it's good to have multiple networks of support for sure so that they you don't become that lifeline for them.

Rituals To Release What Isn’t Yours

SPEAKER_00 48:43

Yeah, and as much as we want to, especially like the fixer in some of us that are, and that's also a trauma response that you know we have to be aware of, but it's hard to say to somebody like I don't have space for this right now, but I still love you. Like it's and sometimes they will walk away and that and maybe you aren't the right witness for them in the moment, or they need something beyond, like we talked about earlier. They need something beyond me, they need a therapist, they need somebody professional. Um, and I don't think it's ever wrong to ask if that's an option for them too, you know.

SPEAKER_01 49:15

Um and just say I don't feel like I can hold that space for you anymore. It's having, you know, I'm having a harder time than I thought I would. Do you have somebody else you can talk to about that? Right. And like you said, I still love you, I still want to be your friend. I'm just not that person for that topic or however you estimate it.

SPEAKER_00 49:35

Yeah. Um, so as well, just as you, Lauren, not just Lauren the therapist, but as you hold space for people and and you hear the things that you hear and you witness the things that you witness, um, what's your personal practice for releasing what's not yours? What what does that look like for you? I know you said you like to listen to music or you take an extra long drive, but but really, do you have a ritual or something else that that you could recommend for our listeners?

SPEAKER_01 50:03

Yeah, I do. On those really hard days, you know, I will text my husband and let him know I'm gonna be a little bit longer until I get home. And that's our code word of it was a hard day. And I will, I will take a drive and I'll pray. Um, sometimes I'll sit in my office and I'll cry and allow myself to feel those feelings that have been brought back up. Um, I will pray before I leave office, and then sometimes I'll listen to that music. And whether it's something totally separate or something that needs to elicit tears, I'll listen to whatever moment kind of helps that. And then I tell my brain it's time to switch on to you as a human being outside of the office, right? You're a mom, you're a person, you're a wife. And sometimes I will go to a dance party with my kids, to be quite honest. Maybe one of those days and I need to switch gears, it's like we're dancing in the living room today, or I'm going for a walk when I get home, or ride bikes, you know. And so I do enjoy getting outside. A lot of times I will go take a walk or drive with my windows down just to get that fresh air. I like to do that too. Um, and then kind of like what I told you, that reset. I tell myself, okay, I cannot control this, it's out of my control. Um, there's nothing I can do further, but what I can control is what the rest of my life is gonna look like.

SPEAKER_00 51:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:24

And I want to go be present with my kids. And sometimes at the end of the night, I will check out and I will, if I'm not talking, my husband knows that's that there's a reason, and I just need to sit and watch a silly show or read my book. And so that's my reset. And I, you know, kind of like you said, sometimes it takes a day, but that's usually how I start separating the boundary of listening to the stories before I leave it.

SPEAKER_00 51:51

That's really beautiful that you can do that for yourself. I think it takes practice too. It's easy to say, this is what I do, and this is what you should do. Um I don't like to should on anybody, so I don't want to tell them what they should do, but these are things that are just options for you as a listener that may work for you, that may not work for you. To just find I I want you to find something that will work for you, um, just to help you separate that space, exactly like you said, especially as a healthcare worker, um, to be able to leave it at the doors. Um, it's really hard. It's really hard. So baby steps with that if it's not a common thing that you do. Um, for me, it's gotten a lot easier over the years just with practice, but it's still, it's still, especially when you start getting into other things and volunteering and doing podcasts and other things. So it's like there's not a lot of separation now. Sometimes I'm like, I have to go home and I'm gonna do this podcast story, which is beautiful. I'm so honored to do it. But then I'm like, how do I separate it when I hang up from here? I just gotta go right back downstairs and jump into dinner. So I'm trying to figure that out still, too. And I guess what I'm just saying is we're all human people, like we gotta figure this out what works for you.

SPEAKER_01 53:06

So um and one thing might work one time and not the next time. Yeah, that's a good point. But it's practice, you know. Yeah, if one thing is not working, I will switch to something else.

Closing Release Practice And Resources

SPEAKER_00 53:16

And I think that it's it's important to know too, depending on the story that you held or what you witnessed. Um, depends on the degree of what you might need to do. Like the screaming thing for me, um, that's usually when it's like, Whew, this is like heavy. I need to get this out. And usually I will admit that a lot of times it's probably something that I already had going on, and that was just the tip of the iceberg. So therefore, I feel like that's how it needs to come out. So it's me, not just that person's story, it's me too. Um and then other times I can't find the tears to save my life. So I need a playlist that's got the saddest songs on the planet so that I can get them flowing and then I'm good. So thank you for those suggestions. Um funny story before we we close. A friend of mine um and I, we were on a hike and we went really high up on this rock and we climbed up, and we both were just working through some things. And I was like, let's let's like do some somatic breathing and movement up here, way high. I mean, 14,000 feet up. I've never been that high before in my life. It was cold up there, it was just like the perfect crisp day. And I was like, let's let's do some somatic movements and like the stuff we'd been talking about all weekend and things like let's just release it up here, like let's scream. And we were with a group of ladies, and so she was like, I'll I'll do it with you. I trust you, let's do this together. So we told our friend on the side of the mountain, hey, warn everybody that we are gonna scream up here. So nobody thinks like something's wrong. So we did our thing, and it was so beautiful and therapeutic, and like it was just amazing. I'll never forget it. But our friend thought it was hilarious to not tell anybody that that's what we did. No, so when we come down, I mean, perfect strangers were like thinking someone fell off the mountain because we and we had no idea. So then when we come down, everybody's like frantic, and we're like, oh my god, no, no, we're okay with it was therapy. We were releasing it was so funny. But like those people were looking at us like we were crazy. But you know what? I've felt so good, and we it was like the best release I could have had. Like my whole body was just tingling, it was so incredible. So highly recommend just don't scare people.

SPEAKER_01 55:32

Yes, go out, scream. I love taking a bucket of ice and just chunking it out the ground, right? When you gotta get that energy out, just throwing it at the ground, it feels really good, but don't do it in the front. People look at you like you're weird too. So go in the back and throw your ice back there.

SPEAKER_00 55:48

I hadn't thought about ice. That's actually a good idea because you're not breaking glass, it's ice. Like, yes, as much as we want to smash things, that's something pretty cool. Yeah, those smash rooms are expensive. It's like they are for 10 minutes, it's like$50. That's crazy. I can smash up something for free. I don't need to do that. Yes. Oh, thank you, Lauren. This was really a really important conversation. I thank you for having it with me. Um, I really, really appreciate your time. And I will put in the show notes. Um, Lauren, if anybody is in our area and wants to come see you at your practice, are you currently taking new patients?

SPEAKER_01 56:27

I am. I'm I'm over here in the woodlands and always taking new patients. And it's such an honor to be on this with you. You're doing amazing work and the topic is so important. So you're such a blessing to this community.

SPEAKER_00 56:40

Thank you very much. And I will put Lauren's um practice information and stuff in the show notes. So if you want to get a hold of her, um, that way you guys can get connected if that's something you're interested in, or if you've never had therapy before, if I recommend you find study in your area, even if it's just a couple of visits, just to see if it's for you, because it's important and it it changes things. So when we tell the story, we're not bound up anymore. And that's the whole point of this podcast is just to break that silence that keeps us in shame. So I'm really proud of you guys for listening and thank you for holding this space with us. And before we go, we're gonna release what isn't ours to carry. Um, so today we're just gonna take a breath in and think about one thing that you just want to let go of. Palms up, breath out, push your palms to the sky, and let it go. You did it. Thank you. Thank you for being a sacred witness for today's episode. If this conversation has brought up difficult feelings, please remember to take care of yourself in whatever way you need. Healing is not a straight line, and you do not have to walk this alone, okay? So if you need additional support, please reach out to a trusted friend, a professional, or a resource in your community. There's resources listed in the show notes as well. Your well being matters the most, so thank you for being here and choosing to listen with care. Until next time, remember that you are loved and worthy of being witnessed.