Ayana - When Resilience Isn’t Enough: Choosing Transilience

Defiance of Silence is a place for real stories of trauma and healing—where lived experience matters more than advice.

Start with a breath. Then meet Ayana—a Navy veteran, therapist, author, caregiver, and peer support leader whose story moves from Brooklyn to the nuclear pipeline, through MST and grief, and into a life devoted to witnessing others with care.

In this conversation, we explore the difference between breaking silence that isolates and honoring silence that protects. This isn’t trauma porn and there’s no pressure to share more than your nervous system can hold—just real language, lived experience, and practical tools for safety and healing.

Ayana shares how one sentence from a therapist changed the course of her recovery, why anger often masks fear, and why regulation must come before processing trauma. We also unpack what peer support actually means—trained, ethical support grounded in lived experience—and why it can be a lifeline for veterans and families navigating complex systems of care.

We talk about choosing therapy wisely—asking about modalities, tracking what actually helps, and remembering you can request a provider who fits your identity and needs. EMDR, Brainspotting, IFS, ART—these aren’t badges of honor. They’re pathways. Readiness is the gate.

Along the way we explore the drama triangle, the cost of rescuing others, and the courage it takes to prune relationships that no longer support growth. Ayana introduces the idea of “transilience”—not just surviving what life hands you, but transforming it.

If you’re breathing, you qualify for care.

For workshops, speaking engagements   https://www.linkedin.com/in/ayanabrown/

I currently see clients at Hope Village Wellness Center.  https://www.hopevillagewellnesscenter.com/

Check out Ayana's book here: Buy Myka and the Mystery of the Treasure Trust

A special thanks: This episode is gifted to you by a sacred witness & friend, Tara Pitcock - Thank you for the support, Tara!!!

Transcript

Welcome & Grounding Invitation

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome to Defines of Silence. I'm Valerie, your host, a veteran, nurse, and a survivor. This is a space for sacred witnessing. For stories often carried quietly and for the people who hold them. For survivors, healers, and witnesses. Here we stand against the silence that isolates and honor the silence that allows us to truly be heard. Some episodes in this season will focus on sexual trauma and forensic realities. Others will explore moral injury, grief, and the cost of caring deeply in a world that can wound. You're invited to listen at your own pace, pause when you need to, and take what serves you and leave the rest. A gentle note before we begin. This podcast includes conversations about trauma and abuse. Please listen with care and honor your well-being. Thank you for being here and witnessing today's conversation. Hi, everybody. I have a guest for us today. Her name is Ayana. I cannot wait for you to witness this conversation. So thank you for being here to witness this. Ayana and I go back to, I think 2021-ish, something like that. Um and she is an amazing human being, first of all. But let me tell you about her. She's a Navy veteran. Uh she's got a family, she's been a caregiver, she's an author, she's a therapist, she's um just encompasses all things, resilient and survivor and beyond. I honestly don't have all the words, but uh she is she is founder of uh peer support services. Like she has done all the things and has all the wisdom. So I can't wait for her to drop some of that on us today. So welcome, Ayana.

SPEAKER_03 1:46

Thank you so much for having me, Val. Great to see you as always.

SPEAKER_01 1:51

It's a pleasure to see your beautiful face too. I wish that our witnesses could see you, but yeah, because I wouldn't put on makeup and everything, y'all. But that's just I I have to admit, I forgot to tell her that this is not a video podcast. And I'm sitting here in my pajamas. I'm not even lying. My this is my bedhead and pajamas.

SPEAKER_03 2:08

So I was like, I'll put on makeup, but I'm keeping on my storm shirt because this is okay, this is Monday. I am not in the office.

Introducing Ayana’s Many Roles

SPEAKER_01 2:16

100%. So um it's a nice and gloomy kind of Sunday afternoon here in Texas. It's been kind of gross over here in Houston, but I'm not letting that affect me today. But I am in my pajamas and I'm not mad about it. So here we are in our pajamas coming to you just to have a conversation. So before we do that, as usual, witnesses, let's just get together and get a little bit of grounding here before we get ready to listen. So close your eyes if you can, if you're safe to do so. Take a breath in, just a gentle breath. Nothing special. Just go with what your body's already doing. Soften those shoulders, unclinch the jaw and let it drop. Notice one point of contact, your feet, your hands, your seat. Let that remind you that you're safe here, you're welcome here, and you do not have to hold everything right now. Just be present and witness. Let's begin. Welcome. Okay. So tell us what you're doing now. Let's start with that.

What Peer Support Really Means

SPEAKER_03 3:22

Oh boy, I am doing too much. That's what I'm doing. I am um since you've met me, I have finished school. So I am now an LPC associate in Texas. So Texas, lovely Texas, does require us to do uh uh 3,000 hours. Wow, that's a lot or we are fully licensed. Yes, yes. 1,500 have to be um direct with clients. I am happy to report, I just passed 600. Woohoo! Like it was five years to do this. Wow, it's that much, and they say we have to do it in minimum 18 months. So even if I decided to do too much and I finished early, it wouldn't matter. So that has is taken up most of my time. So even when you mentioned reach peer support services, to be honest, that's kind of been on hold. I make sense. I'm busy, I'm tired. I mean, I still get phone calls, emails, or people reaching out, and then you know, I I refer them to whom I know would help or whatever information I have. And uh that's how I still help in that capacity because I am still a certified mental health peer specialist for the state of Texas. Awesome. So for those of us who do not even know what in the world that is, a certified mental health peer specialist is a person with lived experience that is actively in recovery because recovery is not linear, and we advocate, we help people. Basically, what I love to do was to for one educate people on what they could do, especially us military veterans and and their families, letting them know about all their benefits, how to get through certain things, how to deal with certain issues. Um mental health peace presses can be employed by hospitals and prisons and things like that to help. So it's like a liaison. And let's be real, we I don't think most people will prefer to speak to somebody who really understands what the experience is like. Right. You know, you can't you can't get that from a book. It's true, it's true.

SPEAKER_01 5:45

And you did some coaching too for peer specialists, right? You were helping other peer, other like mentors and peers become peer specialists. That's incredible. It's incredible. So your author, you've authored a book.

SPEAKER_03 6:01

I did.

SPEAKER_01 6:02

What is that book about? I love it.

SPEAKER_03 6:05

Oh, I appreciate you mentioning it. Um, I wrote a book um coincidentally, um, this is today is December 7th. Well, I wrote a book in honor of my mom who is going, I'm going about to celebrate slash cry my eyes out on in a few days in her honor because that was the day that she took her last breath. Um, I wrote a book, and it's funny because it looks like a kid's book. It's called Mika and the Mystery of the Treasure Trust. Please do not go on Amazon to buy it, just FYI. I'll make sure to put a link up. That's a whole thing because there's been yeah. Anyway, so that's a whole nother I got got. I'll just I'll just let it go with that. Uh that's on the well, yeah, it's all good. Well, the purpose of the book was is to educate people and have a an easier way to have a conversation about a conversation that most families avoid, and that is of aging, of aging and um wills and trusts. So Mika and the Mystery of the Treasure Trust is really from her eyes seeing all of the family drama and how once we get things in place, we can actually spend most of our time enjoying our family member instead of fighting over possessions and people's feelings and all that crap. Let's just get it done with so we can focus on the time that we have together.

SPEAKER_01 7:41

Yeah, that's important. And you're giving people like a real hands-on way to understand it because let's be honest, I don't understand all of that stuff. But having done some hospice work in the past, I have seen firsthand what happens when you don't have those things in place. So I think it's beautiful. Like you, there's just so many parts of you that that you give to different parts of the world, and it's just beautiful. But I know that getting to this place now and going through school and and all the things you've had to persevere to get to this point um didn't didn't come easy for you. So um, you know, you get you get, I think people get into the mental health space um because we've struggled there, like right. I mean, I don't know anyone, I personally don't know anyone who has not had mental health struggles, but there are only certain people that can work through their struggles and then give back and not continuously be re-traumatized and triggered. Not that that doesn't happen at times, but to be able to hold space for others and work through your own stuff is powerful. And I don't think that a lot of people understand what that takes. And I know you you resemble that so well. And it I've always looked up to you for that.

SPEAKER_00 8:59

Um, first of all.

SPEAKER_01 9:00

So when I met you, it was not in a good place, and you you definitely um have helped me to overcome some of those things too. So if you're comfortable, maybe tell us a little bit about your childhood and your upbringing and kind of how you became you.

SPEAKER_03 9:15

Sure. Um, so I grew up in New York, I grew up in Brooklyn. I'm the firstborn of immigrants uh from the Caribbean, Jamaica, and the Bahamas. I'm the eldest of three. I grew up in if you look up Brownsville in Brooklyn, it was a murder capital at one point.

SPEAKER_00 9:35

Wow.

Writing About Wills, Trusts, And Grief

SPEAKER_03 9:36

So, of course, my parents just being happy that they could afford a house, they didn't know or understand that, and they were just always working. So uh lots of good times when it came to friends, lots of not so great memories with other stuff there. Uh, I knew that I wanted to leave ASAP. I knew that I was the kid, I'm a big old nerd to this day. I was the kid who would cut school and go to the library and a museum. Like that's where I'll be. Or later when I could work, I would cut school to go go and make some money because that's just what I wanted to do. I wanted to travel, etc., etc. So the story of me getting into the Navy was funniest because I grew up with I guess you could say body, body issues. I had very, very, very large breasts from very early on. And if you could just imagine what kind of things people would say to me, including women. You know, it was it was not fun to look like me. It was very hard. I used to try to wear the biggest clothes I could wear. I stopped playing sports. Um, you know, people would say things, do things, touch me, try to touch me, etc. etc. So it was just a very ugly time. It's funny because I don't have any pictures from my teenage life. I don't have any. The only people who seem to have them are like friends and their family members, but I hated the way I look so much.

SPEAKER_00 11:09

I have nothing to show that I even existed during that time.

SPEAKER_03 11:13

Nothing. Wow. Right? So yeah, yeah. So yeah, so I wanted to join the Marines because I wanted to be you know who I wanted to be. You remember uh that movie Aliens? Yeah, yeah, yeah. The sequel, you know that the yeah, man. Remember the badass Marine? She had a big old gun and she had a head back to I wanted to be so bad. Yeah, I love it. I was like, I want to be her so bad, and you know, um, plus I I wanted to join because I was thinking travel, be a badass, and they said that they would give me a brush reduction.

SPEAKER_01 11:50

Yeah.

Why Helpers Carry Scars

SPEAKER_03 11:51

Well, anyway, I went and took the ASVAB. I hope it's still called the ASVAB. I think it is. Yeah, I think it is. I don't even know. Everything is yeah, and the score I got was so high that everybody started treating me like a like a unicorn. And my recruiter apparently was talking smack about like, I just got this girl, she's just score like almost a perfect score in the AS Bath. And I was walking to the train station, and then one of the Navy recruiters came out and goes, Hey, I'm just saying if you come with us, there's a big bonus. You can get all that, but we're gonna give you a bonus. And um, I'm going to the Navy. Yeah, so I joined as a nuclear nuclear machinist mate, um, which was extremely, extremely hard. Wow. So yeah, what I learned in the military was a lot more than what I learned in the books. It was a whole experience that um has definitely changed my life. Um, I mean, let's be real, we're here because we're talking as survivors. So I will say that my first military assault was by that recruiter. And I didn't say anything because I just wanted to go. I was just like, you know what? Oh man, let me just let me just get up out of here. I was thinking, oh, just it's a New York thing. I just gotta get up out of Brooklyn and then I'll be safe. Um you know, years later, right before I finally decided to not um to not reenlist anymore, there was an another one. And this guy apparently he's still in the military, he's an officer and everything. And from what I understand, there's others. I am sorry. Yeah, I is I am and I am not, if that's makes sense. Yeah, yeah, it does. It does. Yeah, it's you know, I listen, I've done a lot of work. Okay, one of the things that I'm trained in now, I'm trained in EMDR, I'm certified in brain spotting, I'm working on um more somatic experiencing modalities and IFS, all those things. And it took me a long time to be able to even have a conversation like this without busting in tears. Yeah. So for me, this is a testament to just how much work I put into me.

SPEAKER_01 14:12

Yeah, and thank you for saying that. That's why this space exists, because I think people that are part of this club, which I'm sorry if you are part of this club, it's not one you want to be part of, but we're not alone in it. And to be able to say there is hope and and having people like you come on and share your story and say, I am resilient, I've found ways to heal. It's not hopeless, it's not over. Um, gives others a chance, like gives others a chance to see that they can do it too. And sometimes I wonder, and maybe I'd love your thoughts on this. You know, obviously when we're in the darkest of the darks, and there's, you know, like you said earlier, it's not linear, healing is not linear. There are hills and valleys, and you can do really good for a long time, but then other things open up and you have to learn how to process and deal with those things. And um it's not like we were videoing ourselves and having these conversations for everyone to witness and see. So I feel like for myself, when I would hear stories like this, which were few and far between, to be honest, because I wasn't I wasn't privy to them, I wasn't hearing these stories. So it was like, I'm alone, I'm in this by myself. But to hear and see someone going, watching them go through the thick of it and like really going through it, you don't get to see that view. So it was hard for me to hear someone tell from this side of it and picture myself and go, yeah, but yeah, but you don't know my story. Yeah, but you don't know what this is like for me. And that's not actually true. They we do know what it's like, and that's why we can sit here and say, so we're not um to our witnesses that are listening, we're not saying all these things because we're so great. We're saying these things because we've just been there and done it. And we love you enough to be vulnerable to put our crap out there and say, like, look, this is what happened, and this is where we are, and this is what was going on, and this is how I got there. And sometimes it just sneaks up and bites you, like you think you're good, and then some stuff happens, and then you get re-re-triggered, or you have things that you just realize are new that you've got to work through. And I've I've watched you do that, and you've watched me do that, and it's been it's just it's amazing, and and it is a testament to the healing that we were capable of. Like our bodies are resilient, our minds are resilient, we just don't always know it. So, yeah, talk about that. Like, how how did you go from experiencing you know military sexual trauma and then start a healing journey? Like, what was that like the in-between? And that's the part that interests me because my in-between, I hardly remember it, to be honest. So, what was that like for you?

Brooklyn To Navy: The Escape Plan

Naming MST And The Work To Heal

SPEAKER_03 17:06

Oh, it was chaos, it was absolute chaos. I one of the things I also do, I'm an LCDC intern, so I help people with chemical dependencies because I'm learning more and more that the reason why people do certain things is to give them a pseudo-sense of being grounded, right? When we talk about our our river or our window of tolerance, you know, being hyper-aroused all the time or hypo aroused or you know, going both is exhausting. And when you do not have that mind and body connection that recognizes calm, it's like pretty much you got the smoke alarm on all day, every day. And with that being said, one of the things that I tell like my groups of my clients is that trauma changes your prescription. Everything I saw, everything I heard, it was distorted. So even when I was safe, I didn't know it. So I was doing things to ruin relationships, including the ones even with my kids, my husband, you know, my uh people who wanted to be friends with me. I just never felt safe, and I I I wasn't in a place where I could recognize that. So it was very, very tumultuous. Um, you know, I never told anybody while I was in the military. I straight up didn't think anybody would care. Look, look, I mean, come on, yeah. Being real, right? I think they told me at the time I'm the eighth black female in like that program ever, that to finish that program, which is exhausting. Straight up, it's it's it's exhausting. So it's like then you have your family so proud of you, and then I don't want to tell them that, yeah, this is the cost of it. And you know, I come back home, and my uh oh my god, she was um her uh principal Helen Lear. She's she's passed away, but I she's I mean, the thickest Jewish accent. Oh my god, my daughter is back. She would get on the um in a call. My daughter is back for the military, everybody come meet her. I love it. It was hilarious, but it was so cool. So I just had all this kind of pressure on me, like, man, I don't want to tell them the truth because then who am I again and where am I going back to? You know, um, like my normal was was not very cool. I didn't know that until I left. So then when your your options get open, you know, your eyes get open to other possibilities. I'm like, well, let me go. I don't do I want to go back to the chaos I know, or do I want to have the possibility of less? So it was a whole lot of me having a hard time with anger. Everything I did came out as anger, no matter how long I tried. And uh I ended up getting in trouble because of that. Somebody overheard me yelling at my at my youngest. Of course, nobody ever asked the story behind it. Sure. Usually they just, you know, I'm in Coronado, California by this time, like, you know, be called the land of odds, because that's where some of the books were written in this super fancy place. And all they know is, oh, this person who doesn't look like most of the people in the neighborhood is yelling at her kids, therefore, oh my god, danger, danger, danger. Well, the good thing about that is it ended up making you have to go to therapy. And I had I was blessed enough to get into the best therapist that I I could ever have. I mean, I tried before, but the chick she looked at me and she just, you know, I came in head down, ready to hear about how much I'm a piece of crap and all this stuff, because yeah, tell me some more, right? And she said, Um, you know, she's asking me some clarifying questions about what went down. She said, Oh, you're not a bad mama, you're a tired mama. Yeah, and I was just like, I just remember crying because I just never heard that before. Like, no, I've never been validated. Yeah, and she earned my trust enough for me to tell her about a lot of stuff. And first off, she put us in contact with resources. So my my youngest is on spectrum. Um, he's he's in his 20s now. Uh, he has what was diagnosed, you know, they changed the diagnosis of the high-functioning Asperger's. And it's still hard, y'all. And it's frustrating when you do not have support nor any kind of knowledge or resources. So that was part of it. Then it was working on myself and working within my marriage. Because by this time, my husband, he he kind of had it with me too. So I had to tell myself, all right, well, I'm fitting to be alone, and what I need to do is. Do whatever it takes to make sure that my kids don't want to not be around me too. So I had to do some drastic stuff. So that meant going to the VA, even though I absolutely hated it. It was so demeaning. So many times I've been either laughed at by staff members or you just not listen to it. At least at the time where I was going, let me just say that it was not a great experience. However, I did learn about peers, peer supports. And so I started going to a peer-led group, and it went very well. And by the end of that, when I was actually getting ready to move here, the leaders there was were asking me if I was interested in becoming a peer because they said that the women were drawn to me. Didn't really take that seriously. Moved to Texas, you know, he my husband got out the military. Excuse me. So by this time, I'm now he and I are a lot better because I'm working on myself. However, I'm going to keep this momentum up. I'm looking for self. So everywhere I go, because of matter of fact, because of the Travis Manning Foundation, me joining them in San Diego. Every time I move, I look for the nearest Travis Manning Foundation. I look for nearest team red, white, and blue. Um just to make sure that I have social supports because I didn't want to put everything on my husband, and I need to, I need the help to get physically active for the times that I'm you know in a down spiral. Uh that just led to a whole bunch of networking because you know San Antonio ends up being military city USA. So, you know, I learned about the pink parades. That's how I met you, Val. Yep, yep. Um woven. Um there were so many, so many. And my thing is I you remember that song? You don't know if you watched The Friends Utopia of Yeah with the animals. Okay, so Shakira, I love Shakira, she had this song, try everything, and that's that's my motto when it comes to my my health. Try everything. I don't care about it. I would say that's true about you.

SPEAKER_01 24:07

You've always got something cool to share. I love it. Oh, yeah, honey.

SPEAKER_03 24:11

Listen, this this chick from Brooklyn was signing up for surfing, and it was so funny because everybody was like, Are you are you sure you want this kind of like hell yeah, get out my way.

SPEAKER_01 24:19

You've jumped out of an airplane. I've seen the footage of you jumping out of an airplane. When you say jump, it was pushed or pushed. Uh, I got offered that trip and I I did not go. I did not. I'm still working on that.

SPEAKER_03 24:37

It was, I was like, I told him, I said, I I had the whole conversation. Look at here, we we're gonna fight, just so you know. I'm gonna I wanna go, but I don't, so you're gonna feel a lot of restraint, and I'm just it's nothing personal, it's just you know, I'm gonna, yeah. But once we're there, I'm gonna be holding on to you very tightly because I'm scared. Okay, so just being honest. Uh yeah, everything, honey. Um, that was from Oscar Mike when Pick Berets linked up with Oscar Mike. So that experience was incredible. Go into that house, being amongst those people, and just the experience and the things that we we did. It was you know, that's what I do. I try to experience things. Oh, oh my gosh, outward bound, which for the record, y'all, we get two free trips in our lifetime. I've taken one, I'm kind of holding on to this this this last one. I went and spent a week in Joshua Tree. That's what Joshua Tree. And I came back different, you know. I started connecting with nature more, talking to my you know, my higher power and learning from people. And I feel like one of the things, one of the reasons why it's so easy for me to try different things is because I'm not worried about what you think.

SPEAKER_01 25:53

Yeah, it takes some it takes some time to arrive to that. My husband and I were talking about this. We were talking about I said, I don't know if it's because I'm getting older and I don't care, or if it's just growth or both. And my husband said, I do both all of it. I just like I think about how I used to care so much about what what people would think and being judged. And obviously, there's parts of me that still worry about that. There's parts of all of us, right? There is gonna be that protective part that's like, don't do that, you're gonna be judged, or they're gonna think think ill of you. But guess what? Every time I've allowed myself to be vulnerable, I have not encountered, I've never encountered anything that killed me. Okay, I'm still here, and this is it's just beautiful to hear you talk about trying everything and having these different different experiences. So it sounds like you really had an opportunity to be witnessed by others and kind of un unearth all the trauma that you had. So, what was that like for you when you started to really look at your own trauma? Because at some point you started going to school too. So you're going to school and you're dealing with your own stuff.

Chaos, Anger, And Finding Therapy

SPEAKER_03 27:06

Yeah. So how did that start? Okay, it was around COVID that I said, you know what? I talked to my husband, he was cool with it. I stopped working and I started reach peer support services, got certified as a peer specialist, of course, on my own because I just could never get a job that would help me. So I just always had to do these things on my own. Um, when I went to a retreat with Camp Shield, another great organization, I met other MST survivors. And during that first time I went, I also met they had um a doctor on staff, and she said the same thing. She goes, Have you thought about being a therapist? I was like, Are you kidding? I was like, I'm too jacked up. She goes, Baby, we all messed up, right? What are you talking about? But she again, because she said that the you know, I seem to know how to help people, like you know, just calm. I was never trying to say, hey, go do this. I just always sense when somebody just, hey, can I is it okay if I give you a hug or can I just sit with you? I just naturally did that. Um, and I have a picture of them literally putting me in a headlock because they wanted me to go to school.

SPEAKER_02 28:21

So when I graduated, I put before and after. Like people believe in you so much they got you to you want to go to school, you won't be our therapist, right? That's fantastic. That is fantastic.

SPEAKER_03 28:35

I I oh the other the other picture of that, I've ended up flipping it on the the doctor because she came to my graduation, so I put her in a headlock like haha. Oh, that is fantastic. So fun. That's so fun again. That's goes go back to not caring about what people think. Because here's the thing nobody who's doing better than you is gonna judge you in a negative way.

SPEAKER_01 28:55

Man, say that again. Yes, they're not, yes.

SPEAKER_03 28:58

I don't care, yes. Let me say something. The way I dance, like for real. Listen, I deal with a lot of heart-heavy work. I just buried my mom. The way I do not care, and I will take advantage of any dance that I see. And we, oh my gosh, we were on a trip to Cuba, and it was funny. The the we were on a boat ride, and they stopped to give us a chance to go in the water, and all these women are like, Oh, I'm not gonna get my hair wet, I'm not gonna do that. And all you heard was cannonball. I would like look, okay. I don't know how much life you got, I don't know how much life I got, but what I'm not gonna do is worry about what you're thinking about me while I go cannonball in the water in Cuba. Man, that's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 29:38

And let's let's be real, let's be real. Nobody's thinking about the fact that you cannonballed in the water because everyone's absorbed in their own selves, they're worrying about their selves. And if anybody thought anything, they probably thought, man, I wish I was that free and didn't care. You know, so like once you get a hold of that, that changes the perspective. Like everything. I love that, and I I could just see you doing that too. That's that's incredible. That's incredible. I yeah, girl. I one of my favorite things about you, and what I remember from from being around you with the pink brace, too, was you gave us a talk and you you spoke to the group, and it was just so moving and so motivating, and just just saying like, and you shared so vulnerably, and you told us about you know your experiences, and then you ended it with like, what's your mixtape? Like, what song do you want to dance to? And I've never forgot that. And you said create a mixtape for you, and I have I have a playlist that's my you know, mixtape that you know, you said you carry a lot of heavy things. Let's talk about that too. Like, you carry heavy things, um, I carry heavy things, and some of the work that I do as well, being a forensic nurse, and there's just different aspects of hearing people's stories and even doing this podcast and being a therapist, you carry things that aren't yours to carry, and you have to move those things through. So, talk about what that looks like for you.

Building Support: VA, Peers, And Community

SPEAKER_03 31:05

Okay, uh, I have a couple of things I do. First of all, like I said, um, whether it's I'm used, I'd be honest, even if I was at work right now, like seeing somebody burst, I'd probably have on a cartoon shirt anyway, because that's who I am, that's part of me. Um, I do believe in having things that are very close to nature. I believe in multicultural counseling. So music is a huge part of my culture. Like I said, Caribbean, you know, I'm about to find out what my African uh ancestry is. So there's a lot of drumming, and drumming is um a great way to get in contact with your vagus nerve. Um, dancing. Think about the fact that dancing is bilateral stimulation, you're getting to both sides of the brain um to to help ground all that singing that people would do in in in community, all that was healing energy. It's not so therapy, doesn't always have to be one-on-one sitting down with somebody and telling your deepest, darkest part of therapy and that renewal, and and it's funny. If my if any of my clients do hear this podcast, they're gonna wince because they're gonna they know how I feel about the word resilience because I'm kind of over it. I use transilience quite a bit. I prefer transilience, it's about you know moving that energy and turning into something else. Because in my experience, resilience has usually been the catalyst for you telling me how much I can take, so you're gonna give me some more, and what I what you're not gonna do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tell me how strong I am, so you're gonna keep giving me stuff or doing more than no, we're not gonna do that. So I I refuse. Um, yeah, taking you know, music. I mean, I literally it's in my ankle bells. I I I walk around, I try to be music as I'm walking around my house. I finally finally succumbed to TikTok and got me a vibration plate and I love it. Did you vibration pad? I do, I do. It reminds me a lot of this thing you can find on YouTube called tension release exercises, no trauma release exercises, which I got turned on to while I was caregiving for my mom. And without that, I couldn't even sleep. So there are times that you can do things and let your body tremor and vibrate and just release all those toxins and things like that.

SPEAKER_01 33:33

Um, I have thought about that and I haven't pulled the trigger. So uh when I was seeing a therapist uh not not too long ago, she taught me about shaking the bones and she was like, get some drumming, like that. And that's where I learned about that too. Like get this deep like vibration drumming, put on some noise-canceling headphones and like shake your body to move these things out. And when I tell you, I mean, I'm willing to try anything, like you know, I'm not whatever. I'm not it's not like I'm doing it in the street, and I probably would now, I don't care about it.

SPEAKER_03 34:03

I would let my neighbors know.

SPEAKER_01 34:06

I I remember like closing the door and going in my like little safe space that I have my little office at home, and like, okay, hopefully nobody comes in here and tries to figure out what I'm doing. It was the weirdest thing, the weirdest sensations at first, and then I started to feel like the first time I did it, I was like, okay, that was interesting, but I kept with it, you know. I I really, really tried to do it, and there's something about that that just unlocks something, and then I was able to access like really deep sorrow that needed to come out that I didn't know was there. So there's something to be said for all this stuff, and I used to think it was so woo-woo. And I know people, if it's not for you, it's not for you, but try, try something, try something different, try another thing that's different, try everything. There's some things I don't love, and I'm like, it works for you, but great, it just doesn't work for me, you know.

SPEAKER_03 34:59

Um exactly. And so I've been laughing. I love that. Have you done that? Have you done the EFT tapping? Yeah, I'm so I believe in movement, even when you're sitting still, right? So maybe I don't, I might be mentally drained from the day, you know. Even the tapping helps move the energy within me. So when you ask about what I am doing, those are some of the things. And I have a sanctuary room in my house where there's no electronics at all that I go to pray, meditate, and sometimes just be stretch. How however on the walls there are these like paper butterflies with initials on them. So those are initials of all my clients. So when I go in there, I you know I'm trying to release them. Yeah, yeah, let them always be touched by well, first of all, thanking them for being a part of their journey, but also so that I don't forget them. So even if I don't remember the initials, because now it's I mean, good Lord, I'm at 600 hours, right?

SPEAKER_00 36:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:02

But you know, just that's something that's been part of my ritual with that.

SPEAKER_01 36:06

Yeah, that's really beautiful. Because if we don't take care of ourselves, and you know, you've already experienced trauma, and then you've worked through your trauma, you're working through your trauma. We're always gonna be, you know, growing and growing. Um, but then now vicariously you're taking on other people's stories and holding space for them. And so sometimes they sit with you probably longer than than others, you know. I feel like for me, I'm able to release some things fairly quickly, like like I've witnessed it and and that's it. And other times it does take me really moving things through.

Try Everything: Nature, Risk, And Play

SPEAKER_03 36:44

Yeah. Um well, transference and counter-transference are real. Let's, you know, let's be real. Like you said, you know, I came into this field because I know what it's like to be um judged for being angry and nobody asking me why. So I'm certified of anger management. So you got you need your court papers, honey. You're gonna have the most fun and education. But what you will not get is judgment. That's just not gonna happen because I get it, right? Um, you know, having these these tools and skills is because I'm looking out for me, the other me, the the the next me. And I mean, say what you want about it, it's just real. I never how did I even get EMDR? Oh, remember when I told you that I was in the thick of it and I, you know, I was pretty much making plans to be single, and I just put my all into everything. I was just doing my own research. The VA told me nothing about this. I took my own money and I went and found oh gosh, I went to support groups, I even went to a um uh uh DBT group. I and I found EMDR and I paid cash, and it was the best thing I ever did for my life.

SPEAKER_01 37:57

Yeah, yeah, it's a it's an incredible tool. Um that again, just like everything, doesn't work for everyone, it worked for me as well. But I had to try, I've talked about this before, I think on a previous episode. I have had to try a couple of times, it wasn't the right fit the first time, or maybe I wasn't ready, but um all the above, yeah. EMDR and ART also, both of those things have helped me um significantly.

SPEAKER_03 38:23

And you had IFS stuff too, right?

SPEAKER_01 38:25

From the from the um from going to the um Save a Warrior uh does a lot of IFS that's internal family systems, and I'm working through that workbook now too, and I'm learning that those parts of me aren't bad. We all have those parts. And and there is a book, um No Bad Parts and No But No Bad Parts. And and the first when I first started listening to that book, you know, I was exposed to internal family systems a little bit. I was like, oh, okay, but now it just makes a lot more sense to me. And I'm really able to recognize which part's coming online and trying to protect me right now. Like that's this is actually not me being being a certain way. Um what's going on internally for me may not be what's actually presenting. And so it's just taken a long time to work through that. And part of um even having this podcast and hearing other people's stories, I'm learning so much from each person. You know, season one was just phenomenal. It's such a gift that people would even trust and be in this space with me. Like you said, you have this natural way of just being with people and bringing out, and you did that with me. Like you just naturally, hey, what's going on? And we were on a teeter totter. Remember that? We were on a teeter totter.

SPEAKER_03 39:40

Yeah, I think I had a video of us swinging, to be honest.

SPEAKER_01 39:43

We were on a teeter totter, and I was just like telling you all the things. I'm like, I even met this person before. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:49

Um, but I'm like, it's a gift and a curse, right?

SPEAKER_01 39:53

And I have I have found similar, like, you know, sometimes people are telling me things and some really interesting things have occurred just through having this space created, because this space is not created for um me and it's not created for necessarily even the witnesses or the listeners. I mean, it is, don't hear that the right way, but it's really for the person on the other end of this that maybe for the first time ever is telling their truth and they're not being judged, and they're able to be witnessed and listened to, and hearing themselves say something out loud, um, maybe just gives them just another layer of support for themselves to see that they already have everything inside them that they need, you know, to heal and to continue to heal. And and to have somebody who's done the work like you have to come on and say, look, it was ugly. There were things that were happening. Um, and the beautiful part of that is is there's a knowing, and we don't have to give details. This isn't trauma porn, or you know, we don't have to say specifically because we know, like there's just a knowing. Um and people that are looking, people that are looking for that sensationalism and for that that type of content, um, this isn't gonna be the platform for them because that's that's not what you're getting here. I hope that people are hearing how to be a better witness and how to take care of themselves in that witnessing. And how do you how do you know you need a witness? Like, can you talk about that for just a second? Like, how would you know if if this is new to you and you're not in the work or you don't even know what the work is and you just stumbled across this conversation, you're like, what the hell are these women talking about? All right, and I would I was one of those at one time. So how do you wrap your head around starting something like this, a journey like this? How do you know you need these things?

School, Camp Shield, And Becoming A Therapist

SPEAKER_03 41:49

Oh, well, well, if you're breathing, you need you need amen. For sure. I'm I'm gonna tell you right now. I listen, I know that part that I don't need anybody, I don't need friends. Okay, that was a liar. Yes, here's the thing we are not made to be completely alone. So, yes, you are going to have to put some work into finding your tribe. Your tribe may have to be electronic until y'all get together. It is what it is, but that alone stuff is to me one of the most dangerous things for mindsets to be in, because that that way you are definitely just gonna be within that hamster circle and just gonna be telling you a whole bunch of stuff that's not true, right? Our feelings aren't always factual. It doesn't mean that you don't feel them, it's just you know, again, I remember Charlie about the those prescriptions get changed. So being amongst others, storytelling, again, when I go back to just historical and cultural, that's how we used to help each other. Now, when I say storytelling, I'm not talking about for likes, I'm not talking about for book deals, I'm not talking about you know, for for camera time, I'm talking about for validation, for like you said, witnessing. And with that, I try my best to be mindful of asking people if I can share something before I do, because just to honor whatever they have been going through first. That's that's a big thing. Being that witness, I mean, because I I will tell you right now, one of the number one ways to get me to cut my eyes at you is for me to ask a question and you start implying that I didn't do anything.

SPEAKER_00 43:30

Right.

SPEAKER_03 43:30

Oh, okay. All right now. Yeah, she's still she's still here, just so you know, right? She's still in me, right? Don't get explicit. Please don't make her come to the front of the line. Okay. Please don't talk to me like like ask me first, right? Ask me, hey, do you are you familiar with this? You know, you know, before I even go there. Um being a witness means also, like I said, asking permission. It's listening more than you speak.

unknown 43:59

I

SPEAKER_03 44:00

Will also say this in the name of being witnessed. As you heal, you are going to prune. Right? Why do I say that? Because some people have chosen to stay where they are. That is their choice. So there's a big, big, big, big, big, big significant difference between being in a group versus being in a support group. There's a reason why I also emphasize the whole thing about certified peer specialists because you can anybody can call themselves a peer specialist. Oh, we we you've had that. I had that too. We peers. No, wait, wait, wait for it. Because there's some training involved and some kind of um you know references involved in earning that title, and it is sacred and it's important. Um, so yeah, I will definitely watch for that. Watch for do you want to be validated? And if so, for how long until that validation requirement changes to all right, let's let's go for some growth. What do I do with this? That's the transilience.

SPEAKER_01 45:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:09

Because here's the thing, I'm not gonna sit here all day, every day, and keep repeating and stuff and not doing something about it to each his own, but as you grow, you will find that some people are not gonna make it to your next chapter.

SPEAKER_01 45:24

Yeah, and that's that's really hard. Um, yeah, I feel that. I feel that.

SPEAKER_03 45:32

I mean, you you love them, you love them, and you look, that's why whenever I'm talking about um healing, I would go like kind of in a circle. I'll like look, you might be here and your friend is over here. It's it's okay. It's all right, you know, there are some times you link up, and then there's sometimes you're just rotating around each other. It you still love them, however, and they're gonna bring you back backwards.

Moving Heavy Stories Through The Body

SPEAKER_01 45:52

Yeah, yeah, and there's there's some some things that have to be um brought to the light when you are doing a healing journey, and you start to realize, like, oh, I've been enabling and I've been doing some things too. Like, you have to own your dysfunctional parts too that have said, like, I've been rescuing, I've been inserting myself where I shouldn't have. So now I've taken on, I'm I'm I can speak for myself, like I've taken on this person's problems in the name of I think I'm witnessing them, and really I'm I'm trying to fix them and trying to rescue, and and that that to me, now that I'm aware of that, I can look retrospectively and go, oh gosh, that's embarrassing. You are hitting it, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:42

But when going forward, I can just do better, right? Exactly. Yeah, when you said in the beginning of exactly, you can't change it. When you said in the beginning of the podcast, you mentioned about how people get into this field, and you know, a lot of them are dealing with with stuff too. Here's an issue though, this is what I'm learning just from observing. Not everybody is dealing with their own issues. Some people are in the field to fix others to distract from working on themselves, and there is a a big I see a big issue with that. Now, am I perfect? Absolutely not. However, I will tell you in a heartbeat, Ayanna Brown goes to therapy.

SPEAKER_00 47:21

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:23

I don't and will, you know, especially when my mom passed. Oh, guess what? Guess who do, do, do, do, do, do hey, you girl, I it hasn't hit me, hit me yet, but it's coming. I need to to do my preventative maintenance, I need to check in every so often. Yeah, you know, etc. etc. If I'm dealing with a victim that really kind of touches my soul, up, do, do, do, do, do, you girl. I want to make sure that I'm squeezing out this sponge so it doesn't turn to mold up and up in there.

SPEAKER_01 47:50

Yeah, that's a great thing.

SPEAKER_03 47:51

And I'm bringing this big thing, I'm being on metaphors, right?

SPEAKER_01 47:55

I love it. I'm a very visual person. That's how I remember things. And I've exactly I'm not gonna forget that. Squeeze out the sponsor. I'm not gonna forget that. Because I'm a sponge.

SPEAKER_03 48:03

That's funny, right? And and I mean, that's part of the part of what I do. However, I had to I had to get that out. So I mean, I know I pay attention to stuff like that. And um I when I do talk to friends who ask me about what or what do I look for in the therapist, I would I would always ask them to say, ask, what do you do for your mental health? Because if they get offended.

SPEAKER_01 48:27

That's a loaded question. And if they do get offended, I think I would just save myself the rest of my time and leave.

SPEAKER_03 48:33

I'm just saying, I'm just saying, yeah, I'm not gonna tell you what to do. I'm just saying it's a food for thought. So that's all I'm gonna, I'm just gonna leave it there. Yeah. Because I've seen it, I've seen it in school, I've seen it in other places, and I'm like, oh my goodness, this is scary sometimes. So, yeah, understand that we're human and understand that you have choices and understand that you can ask for things. See, this is not my peer specialist part. See, that's a big part that it is uh I have a hard time with because as a counselor, I'm not supposed to say this. So my peer specialist decides that look at here, you can ask for for you know, another you can ask for a female if you want a female. If you want to ask for a black female, you can ask for a black female. It is what it is. You do what you have to do for you, period. Right? Keep learning about these different modalities. I would say um, one thing I did when my son was growing my youngest, I have a binder full of every doctor we went to, every medication we tried, and I wrote the side effects. Do that, ask your therapist what modality are we doing? So you know if this works for you or not. So you know, like, do last time I did CBT, it didn't really man. I are you a CBT therapist, or do you use ask you? Can ask those questions, y'all. You are real informed consumer for your health, it's worth it because that's why people say, I've been to therapy and it didn't work. Okay, what kind of therapy did you go through?

Tools: Drumming, Dancing, TRE, Tapping

SPEAKER_01 49:58

Yeah, and how many times did I go? I mean, I had to be honest with myself too. Like I would say, I've tried this and I've tried that. And if I'm being honest, I tried it once, you know, like I didn't really give it, and it wasn't until things got so I had to suffer enough. I wasn't done suffering. I wasn't done suffering, I didn't suffer enough that I was ready to say I'm done. And so once that decision was made, doesn't mean that the pain didn't go away and I still didn't have to deal with the things, but I chose to not be a victim to that suffering. And I could say I'm not a victim of my sexual assault. I'm not a victim, and I could say those things because I I wanted to believe them. So I'm like, I'm saying this, I'm saying I'm not a victim, but my behavior and my mentality still I'm still very much suffering with that. Um and so then hearing other people's story and realizing like, oh, they are they are growing and they like this didn't this hasn't killed them. Like now I can see when I witness someone, I don't have this compulsion to like rescue them anymore because I've done my own work and I can say that I've tried to help others in the past. I I think a lot of people could say this, like, I think um in the name of helping, but helping really isn't helping, but we don't know that it's not intentional. I am distracting from my own garbage that I don't want to deal with. So if I can tell you how this will help you and this will help you, and if you just did what I said, you wouldn't have these problems. Like that's just such a victim cycle and and the drama triangle that I have stepped off of and refuse to do any longer. But when those parts of me do come up, I have to acknowledge them. Because listen, what we don't what we don't transform will transfer, and I cannot afford for that to go any more generations past me. Like it's from behind me, and you know about that, like generational trauma that adds on to you know what our mothers experience, what our grandmothers experienced, the sexual trauma that has come down, yeah. Um, and even some of our fathers.

SPEAKER_03 52:10

Right, yes, Val, right? Epigenesis is real, like our brains are are linked to the traumas from before us.

SPEAKER_01 52:19

Gosh, we could have a whole nother episode about that.

SPEAKER_03 52:22

Yeah, because I do a lot of brain stuff, so I this this is my general right here learning about this. Yeah, absolutely. You know, we are especially as women in this country, women's suffrage and all this stuff, all this is still within us, y'all.

SPEAKER_01 52:36

Yeah, and that's why these things have to move through, and that's why I talk a lot about taking care of your nervous system. And and listen, I'm a consumer of these products, I'm a consumer of this uh getting knowledge from other people. Like, I am not a professional and I'm not an expert, I just know what I have learned and what I have experienced personally, and until my nervous system was witnessed and had was able to feel safe, I was never gonna access that stuff and never gonna be able to let it go.

SPEAKER_03 53:09

And I like you, I love that you said that.

SPEAKER_01 53:12

Being able to do that has been the gift that is gonna continue to give to myself and all the other versions of myself. I I can't remember, I think it's Emory Hall. She has a song called Um, I think it's 10,000 Women or something like that. But all of the 10,000 women that I've been before, wow has led me to hear and like I can see them as sacred now. Like that version of me five years ago, that version of me at eight years old, that version of me, all of those versions that I couldn't get in touch with, um, that I was constantly trying to bury are are allowed, they were allowed to exist, and now they can be seen, even though they're not here physically present with me. Those parts of me are still there and still needed attention and still needed to be witnessed. And so choosing not to suffer and unlocking all of that didn't happen overnight. And I guess I'm saying this just to say like it's a process. This is a process. You don't just suddenly stop suffering. Like you you have to really dig into these things and have these conversations, which to me are invigorating now. I could I couldn't have held a conversation like this five years ago. That right there.

SPEAKER_03 54:23

I didn't have the counseling. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's the thing. Like you said, it is it the modality, maybe how you link up with the counselor, but also are you ready? So when you talk about that nervous system, I'm so glad that you mentioned that because uh had people say, okay, I want EMDR. Well, guess what? We can't get into the processing if you are always on 10. Right? Or um if you are if you feel like you need a substance to be able to sleep every night, your nervous system is not going to allow any of this to happen in a safe way. So then you want to get mad at me when I'm trying to keep you safe. So did it really not work? Or were you?

SPEAKER_01 55:04

Did you visit my therapist and she tells you what I said? Because that was me. I was like, I want to do this, but I'm like taking all the clonazam in the world to go to sleep every night. She's like, You can't get to that that way. And I'm like, Well, I can't sleep, so too bad. It's just like, man, I'm I can't be able to do it. Yeah, yeah.

Boundaries, Witnessing, And Ethical Support

SPEAKER_03 55:23

If I didn't care, sure, I'd do that, but I care. So how how about we not do that? And yeah, um and it's it's it's something. But it's like you said, it's you know what? Um, have you ever um seen the videos of nature films when they're showing like you know the caterpillar turning to the butterfly and they get you know the cocoon and all that stuff? This is um other video that I'd show in my groups, and it's like we kind of emphasize what's going on in that cocoon. And did you know that the caterpillar turns to go?

SPEAKER_01 55:55

Yes, that's so gross, but it's very, very, very, very fitting. Yeah, and like I think, right?

SPEAKER_03 56:03

See, we go in and thinking this is a change of clothes and a change of attitude. No, baby, you're gonna break down. There's a breakdown before the breakthrough. And it's ugly. And can you imagine being a caterpillar and your leg just fall off and start melting? Like, what is happening? Like, I didn't sign up for this, but guess what? It's part of the process, yeah, it's gonna need to happen, it's gonna be ugly and not but and it's necessary and it's gonna, it's just gonna be great. So, scars, and all I might be a butterfly with some scars, but I'm flying.

SPEAKER_01 56:33

Yeah, and and to piggyback on that, I've heard heard that metaphor too. When someone tries to pick away that cocoon to help you, that doesn't help you, and you can see why, because the goo is not ready to come out, and so now you've just injured even further. And I can admit that I have done that and I have been on the receiving end of that, and those are just things that come with knowledge and awareness and growing. So, man, this conversation has just invigorated my soul. I love talking about this stuff, and I love you, and I just am so grateful. Thank you, and I just really appreciate you coming on and dropping some wisdom. I told you guys that she would, and so here we are. Um, before, do you have any last closing remarks or anything you'd like people to know before you lead us out in a release exercise?

SPEAKER_03 57:24

Um, I would like people to know that they are worth all the trouble. Their future self is gonna thank them for all the trouble now and celebrate being wrong, especially about people. It's a fantastic re feeling like, oh, I was wrong. Guess what that means? I get to try something else because I don't know everything, and that is awesome.

SPEAKER_01 57:49

That is so awesome.

SPEAKER_03 57:50

I really like I really, really enjoy that. Um, also let me just say this too. Not all therapies, you mentioned it earlier, not all therapies require you to share all the details of your trauma.

SPEAKER_01 58:04

That's right.

SPEAKER_03 58:06

Um I've just learned the the EMDR flash technique. I love it, my clients love it. It is fantastic. We get to talk about really cool stuff while we're processing, and it is just the joy of the brain healing itself once you have somebody who who knows how to help you get there. Yeah, so y'all are gonna have it is amazing that neuroplasticity. Oh maybe get those new pathways. So I am actually going to be sharing uh one of the grounding exercises that I do use quite a bit when I am helping people prepare for EMDR. Have you ever heard of the four elements?

SPEAKER_01 58:53

I don't think so.

SPEAKER_03 58:54

Good. Okay, so if you you know, if you are you're around my age, you might remember Captain Planet, or if you're younger, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, right, or even Avatar, right? Think about the four elements of the Earth, right? Oh, gotcha.

SPEAKER_01 59:09

Okay, yeah, yeah.

Choosing Modalities And Self-Advocacy

SPEAKER_03 59:10

So what you could actually do before we start this is I'm gonna give them everybody who's listening about 30 seconds to just think about something that mildly disturbs you. Maybe on a scale from one to ten, with 10 being chaos and apocalypse, to zero being furry kitties and puppies, something like a three or below. Mild disturbance. Give me a thumbs up when you got one, Val. Alright, let's go. So, all we're gonna do is we're gonna go and of course sitting comfortably as comfortably as you can. What I want you to do is ground. So, we're gonna talk about the earth. So, when we think about the earth, we think about grounding and safety in the present moment. So, take a minute to land and be here now. Notice your breath, notice the rise and fall of your chest, maybe your stomach. If you're able to place both feet on the ground, press down on the ground, or wherever your feet are, and wiggle your toes, notice the earth supporting you. Now we're gonna go to air. If you are able to place one hand on your chest and the other all over your belly button, gonna inhale the rest of it for a count of three in our mind. Let it inflate your stomach, allowing your chest to remain still. And when you exhale, let's exhale through your mouth. You can do an audible sigh to a count of five in your mind. I'll go ahead and count it in. So inhale, two, three, exhale, two, three, four, five. One more time. Inhale, two, three, exhale, two, three, four, five. Notice that air available to you as you breathe in and out. Now for water. So swallowing switches on the relaxation response that as part of the nervous system. So you actually have a few options here. You can take a drink of water, you can massage the sides of your mouth with the saladary cleanse, and just notice how your body makes saliva and notice how that feels in your mouth, or you can even right now just think of what happens when you suck on a lemon and notice what happens in your mouth. This switches on that relaxation and digestion response and just slow you down to healthy ground because our bodies are mostly made of water. So if you are able, rub your hands together and create some heat. Place your warm hands on your arms or your face to feel the fire that your body can create at any time. Also put it on your neck if you want. Just notice those warmth. Notice all the amazing things that your body can do as we release with a nice deep big breath in and out, and we're done.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:18

Thank you for that. That was lovely.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:22

Welcome.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:23

That was lovely. You are a gift to the witnesses, you are a gift to me, you are a gift to humanity, you are a gift to your ancestors, you are a gift to your I'm just so thankful. I am so thankful. I could just go on and on, but I won't. Thank you. Thank you so much for being here. I am I'm just I'm just invigorated by this conversation, and I cannot wait for for our witnesses to hear it. Thank you. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:52

I appreciate you. Thank you. Thank you, everyone.

Suffering, Agency, And The Drama Triangle

SPEAKER_01 1:03:55

Thank you for being here. If this conversation brought up difficult feelings, please take care of yourself in whatever way you need. I welcome you to carry forward what feels steady and release what isn't yours to hold. If additional support would feel helpful, consider reaching out to a trusted friend, a professional, or a resource in your community. Healing is not a straight line, and you do not have to journey this alone. If this space has been meaningful for you, you're welcome to reach out. And if listening quietly is what you need right now, that's enough. You're right where you're supposed to be. Thank you for witnessing with me today. And until next time, remember that you are loved and worthy of being witnessed.