Breanna - Moral Injury

The hardest part of trauma is not always what happened. Sometimes it's what it taught you to believe about yourself.

In this episode, Valerie sits down with Breanna —a Navy veteran, suicide prevention specialist, and moral injury specialist with Volunteers of America—for a conversation about the wounds too many veterans carry in silence and the paths that can lead them home to themselves.

We explore Military Sexual Trauma (MST) as a betrayal-based trauma and the layers that often accompany it: distrust, isolation, hypervigilance, shame, and a reshaped sense of identity. Breanna breaks down moral injury in a way that is both accessible and profound, offering a distinction that lands deeply: PTSD often says, "I'm not safe." Moral injury often says, "I'm not worthy."

Together, we discuss the difference between treating symptoms and tending to the deeper wounds of meaning, values, and belonging. Breanna shares her own experience with suicidal ideation, the courage it took to call 988, and what she now looks for when someone begins to reconnect with themselves: choice, agency, hope, and a nervous system that finally exhales.

We also talk about boundaries, self-care for helpers, movement, community, and why presence—not fixing—is often the most powerful medicine we can offer another human being.

This is a conversation about healing, but also about witnessing. About telling the truth. About what becomes possible when we no longer carry our stories alone.

If this episode resonates with you, consider sharing it with someone who may need it. And if you're enjoying these conversations, subscribing and leaving a review helps these stories reach the people who need them most.

Transcript

Opening Breath And Season Theme

Valerie 0:02

Hey everybody! Welcome to season three of Defiance of Silence, a Sacred Witness Podcast. It's Valve, your host. This season I'm calling it a field of human stories. Stories of trauma and healing, grief and resilience, loss and meaning. Not because one story has all the answers, but because there's something powerful that happens when we witness one another honestly. Today's story belongs to Brianna. Brianna's a Navy veteran, suicide prevention specialist, and a moral injury specialist who works alongside veterans navigating some of life's most difficult experiences. More than that, though, she's someone who has spent years sitting with people in pain, helping them discover they don't have to carry it alone because she's been there. She gets it. In this conversation, we explore moral injury, military sexual trauma, healing, and hope, and the ways that community can help us find a way back to ourselves after difficult experiences. But most of all, this conversation is about what becomes possible when we tell the truth about what we've carried. I'm grateful you're here to witness it. I cannot wait for you to hear this conversation. Before we begin, though, I'd like to invite you to take one slow deep breath. Notice the chair beneath you. Feel your feet on the floor. Allow yourself to arrive exactly as you are. No judgment here. And as always, take what serves you and leave what doesn't. Here's my conversation with Brianna.

Meet Brianna And Her Mission

Valerie 1:38

Brianna, welcome. Hi, how's it going? Oh, I'm so excited that you're here. Um, I have been really looking forward to this conversation. You and I share a passion for supporting veterans and women, and we have already had a couple of good conversations surrounding all of this. So I can't wait for us to just talk about all the things that led up to what brought you to where you are today. Um, and specifically around supporting those with PTS and moral injury and the difference between those two things. I think it's fascinating um what you do for a living and how how you got there. So without further ado, let's talk about Volunteers of America and how did you find yourself there? What is Volunteers of America and what do you do there?

SPEAKER_00 2:23

Um, well, I found myself there almost by accident, by uh by the universe. Um, I got fired from a job um emotionally. I was not doing so hot, just got divorced. Uh, I was looking for jobs. It was right after Christmas, and then I went in for an interview at Volunteers of America. All I saw was healthcare and veterans, and I was like, cool, that's what I love to be. Um, I went in. I almost didn't get the job because I swear there is this drop dead beautiful woman that was interviewing for the same job before me, and I knew immediately. I was like, okay, she's smart, she's beautiful, like I'm just a veteran and I'm here like have my healthcare degree and my bachelor's in healthcare administration, and I'm shooting for the wind. Um, luckily, they took a chance on me, and I got hired on as a healthcare navigator. So I was helping veterans that were homeless or nearly homeless, um, part of the SSVF program that's there, um, navigating our crazy healthcare system. Um, we whether it be community care, VA, trying to get VA uh disability benefits, anything and everything under the sun, dental work. Uh, and that's really what started driving my passion to continue helping veterans. I left the military community for so long because of what happened to me and um what I was experiencing. And, you know, I met um my kids' father in the military. And so I really just was like, I'm done with it, don't want to be a part of it. And so when I came back to it, I started to love what I do. It wasn't just a job, it was a passion. Um, and then two years later, um, I had the opportunity uh to help be a moral injury specialist because VOA was just bringing them in um as coordinators. And we only had one coordinator for a very long time. Um, shout out to Corey. He's holding holding down, holding down the moral injury coordinators. Um, and so they trained the healthcare navigators on what moral injury is. And I immediately was drawn to it. Like it was one of those aha moments of like, that is what I've been experiencing. And so I worked with Corey. Um, and then moral injury specialist positions um once we got the Sergeant Fox grant opened up. Um, one of the other guys moved, and I had my boss call me and be like, Bree, you've been pushing and helping with moral injury. I want you on my team. And I was like, that's without a doubt a question. Like, yes, like that's not even a question to me. Like, I'm moving over. Um, and so I moved over uh and became a moral injury specialist. And it kind of just started going up from there. Um, working with veterans uh with suicidal ideation, with military sexual trauma, with PTS or PTSD substance use. I mean, it was a spectrum of veterans that I was working with that were not only like low AMI, but a spectrum, people that were making over 200k a year. You know what I mean? Um, so I was working with a wide range of veterans, but we were all experiencing kind of the same stuff, no matter where you were on that income spectrum. Yep. So um with that, I kind of grew into this position. And being uh the only female on my team, um, I really started to focus in on women with military sexual trauma, um, because that's a story that I can relate to, that I've shared experience with. And uh by the, you know, by the grace of God, I have an amazing supervisor that was like, let's do this, Brie. And so that's when we started to open up um specific groups, specific, Pacific. I always get those specific groups. Oh, I swear I have a doctoral degree. I went to college.

SPEAKER_04 6:31

I live to college.

SPEAKER_00 6:33

Um, my kids do it all the time. And like we talk about hippocampus, and they always go, it's a hippocampus. And I'm like, it's a now I now I can't even say now, which isn't hippocampus.

Valerie 6:42

I'm questioning myself.

SPEAKER_00 6:44

Uh so it's so cute.

Valerie 6:45

It just shows we're human, that's all.

SPEAKER_00 6:47

Yeah. And um, so yeah, so then we started virtual groups because we realized even though that there are female veterans that are out there, we are few and far in between, and especially in states of Montana, Wyoming, and South Dakota, that's already rural and so spread out.

MST Retreats And Why Stories Heal

SPEAKER_00 7:03

And so I got approval to do virtual groups. And so we started.

Valerie 7:07

Sorry to interrupt you. These are virtual groups for specifically for MST veterans. Yes. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:13

Uh, the the very first group that we did, there wasn't a specific book for that just had military sexual trauma in it. They had like little add-ins that we could do with it, but we just did the book that everyone else did. Um, but it kind of grew from there, uh, fortunately. Uh Kevin and I, I keep my boss Kevin and I um started talking about having like specific material for military sexual trauma um and specific stories and different things that we could do. Um, and it grew into our first retreat last year. So we did these virtual groups, um, and then we had our first retreat, and that's when I uh met Janine. Uh shout out Janine, love her. I know she's gonna listen to this. Uh uh I met Janine and she became my co-facilitator for the very first uh female-only military sexual trauma moral injury retreat.

Valerie 8:12

She's a pioneer for sure. Oh my gosh, that woman. Shout out to Janine. If you've been following Defiance of Silence, she was in season one and she is amazing. I'm not gonna tell you anything else. You have to go back and listen to her episode. Hi, Janine.

SPEAKER_00 8:26

Hi, we love you. Um but yeah, so once we did that, we realized that there's so many more women suffering, and they're suffering in silence. Um, and you know, the the statistics of one in three veterans and one in 50 men report military sexual trauma by the VA. And so this year, when we did that same retreat, because there was a lot of success with that, um, when we opened up the retreat in January, within a couple of months it was already filled.

Valerie 9:02

Wow. How many are you doing a year?

SPEAKER_00 9:06

Uh right the beginning it was just one. So last year we only did one, and this year, because it filled up so fast, I got a phone call from Kevin and he was like, Hey Brie. And I was like, let's do it. Like if it filled up within a couple of months, like there's a need, there's a want, um, and there's a desire to heal. Like, we're at a point now where women are taking control and starting their own healing journeys um without needing permission. They're just doing it. And and so for that, um, we want to meet the demand. And we opened up another retreat. Um, the one that we have at the end of the year in September is in Cody, Wyoming. This one is in Boulder, Montana. And this is already starting to fill up as well. So I'm more than, I think, I believe halfway filled. And we just opened it up like two or three weeks ago.

Valerie 10:05

Wow. And these retreats, how long are they? And and who qualifies for them? Is it just any female veteran with military sexual trauma, or how does that work?

SPEAKER_00 10:15

So these retreats they last from Friday to Sunday. We start usually about two o'clock on Friday. Um, it's a structured program. We have a workbook that we work through. Um, we have different things that we have structured. And, you know, Saturday morning is our really tough day because you earlier you were talking about your story and the reason why you do this. And one of the big things about telling your story um is that it helps move pain from silence into meaning, which is so important. Um, sharing a story can help reduce isolation, um, release intense emotions, help survivors really reclaim their identity. And so we work through all of this. What's the difference between loss and grief? What's healthy grief? What's unhealthy grief? Forgiveness, self-forgiveness, which is the was the hardest thing for me. Yeah, um that is hard. I can forgive others, I give people benefit of the doubt all the time, but I can mess up one one little pencil mark. For sure. I'm sure destroyed.

Valerie 11:21

Sometimes I'm like, why do I do that? Because I know better. And like I can tell you, you need to give yourself some self-compassion there, Brianna. And I'm over here, like, oh my God, I'm the worst. Like, why? Why do I and I I can catch myself catching myself now at least and like recognize, like, no, no, no, this is this is not not okay. Like, let's take those little internal family members and like pat them on the back that it's okay. But it's such hard work. So I can see why these retreats are so important. And I know like going to a weekend retreat is not gonna cure someone of all the things, but there's something about being seen and being seen and witnessed, and that's that's the premise of this podcast is being a sacred witness. There's something so beautiful about what you're describing is being able to tell those things that happened to you without getting involved in all of the dramatic details about it, but just being seen and saying, like, this is what happened to me, and I know for myself, and that is how I met Janine actually was this was the very first veteran event that I ever went to as a woman veteran, because I also did not identify as a woman veteran. I didn't want to have anything to do with it. And I've shared before that if I were to, this was my distorted thinking that if I shared with you that I was a veteran, then that meant that I was gonna have to tell you what happened to me, which is so not true. But instead of me being able to be proud of my service and say, this is what I did in the military, there's here's where I deployed, here's the things that I did, and I did some really cool stuff, and it gave me a foundation for the career that I have now. Like I did so many cool things, but it was so overshadowed by what happened to me. And it wasn't until I got around these other women veterans that were like, you don't gotta explain this to us. We know, and I could see in their eyes like they got it. And I just could not, and I'm not like a big crier, and I was really, really numb then too. It was like the very beginning of just barely realizing that I think I have a problem. So to be embarrassed to admit that I was suicidal, to be embarrassed to um even admit that I needed help, to go from that to I feel seen by 39 other women that I've never even met before for the first time in my life. And I'm coming out of like church stuff and all, you know, all the things like I had great friends. It this is not a knock at them. This is me like taking all of that in and saying, This is too much. I'm I I literally felt like MST only happened to me. And it sounds crazy to me to say that now because like, hello, duh. Girl, that is not the case. And every veteran that I talked to is like, yeah, I didn't realize, I didn't even know the term MST. And I remember the first time I heard it was um, you know, Vanessa Gehan's story came out, and I was like, oh my gosh. And then I started seeing the Me Too movement and all these things, and I was like, it it triggered me all over the place, and I had no idea what to do with myself. So I'm looking up on the internet, like, what is MST? What do I and it took me into the bowels of the internet, and I was reading these things that people were saying happened to them, and I slammed my laptop shut and I was like, nope, I am not going there. I cannot do that. So I was trying to do it.

SPEAKER_04 14:43

Somebody in a box. Yeah.

Valerie 14:44

Nobody. Yeah. And I'm like at that time thinking, like, well, maybe I'm gonna write a book about my story. And so I thought naively, like that would help me to heal, would just be if I just wrote everything. And that took me on a journey that now I can say I'm really thankful for. Um, but at the time I was like, what have I done? And I don't think I'm gonna survive this. So thank you for providing that space for these veterans. Um, and it's it is so important because even though you've done some work and I've done some work and we've worked through what we call MST, all of those things, it's still hard to talk about. And I just want to say thank you for your your compassion towards those veterans and and for yourself that you're willing to sit here and have this conversation. And I would like for us to dig into a little bit more of that um this season on this podcast. I think is gonna go a little deeper than we've gone in the past. And if you're comfortable um sharing some of your journey, what that was like for you experiencing MST and then suicidal ideation. And we've talked a little bit about your story before, and you shared with me that those are some of the things you've walked through. So you are the perfect sacred witness for somebody. And maybe somebody needs to hear a part of your story today that is saying, like, I thought I was alone in this, and this may break something open for them. And I want to say and preface this I don't like to give a trigger warning because maybe it's what you actually need to hear, and maybe it's not a trigger, maybe it's actually just an invitation. Maybe it's an invitation to just look at what is possible if you stick with it.

SPEAKER_00 16:22

I also want to go back. So when we're talking about military sexual trauma or MST, um, especially within moral injury that I work, it's a lot of the time a betrayal-based trauma, but it can also come from like gender-based harassment, hostile work environments, uh hazing or harassing or bullying, um, extreme disrespect or humiliation or humiliation, um, or sanctity trauma, like you were talking about, like profound betrayal by a chaplain or religious leader. Like it doesn't necessarily have to be assaults as well. There's a different, there's a lot of different um uh things that fall under military sexual

Moral Injury Defined Versus PTSD

SPEAKER_00 17:07

trauma.

Valerie 17:07

And before before we go further on that, I think we did kind of fast-forward a little bit. Sorry about that, guys. Um, because we've already talked. So I'm like, wait, they didn't hear that part. Can you just talk just a little bit about what actually moral injury is? Um, I mean, I know you just gave some examples, but I too did not realize that was a thing. So I'm like finding out I had MST, and then I'm like, okay, but the army betrayed me. So how how do I, you know, the military police that picked me up and found me in my underwear running down the street and didn't do anything? Like, I didn't even realize that those were things that I felt betrayed by because it was just so much. So when when that all breaks loose, you're like, oh great, more things for me to to go through. And so a lot of the PTSD that we see in this community a lot of times isn't necessarily traumatic in the physical sense, like you're talking about. It can be moral injury um surrounding MST and or combat injuries, like all of it.

SPEAKER_00 18:07

Yeah. Right? Yep. Yeah. So first I also want to hit the point of what qualifies you for uh the retreats. Um one, we would talk about suicidal ideation. I do work for the Sergeant Fox Suicide Prevention Grant, and VOA is using that grant to address moral injury in veterans because there's a huge link between moral injury and suicidal ideation. Um because when you lose your sense of purpose, um, your hope, and are feeling shameful, like that just increases on top of um unfortunately um suicide. Uh so when we talk about moral injury, um, moral injury is that wound that happens when something either violates your deeply held beliefs of what's right and what's wrong, that moral compass of who you are. And when we talk about your moral compass, it's what growing up directed your right and wrong, um, or violates your sense of safety, your honor, or just who you are as a person. Um, it can come from uh something that you did that you could not stop, uh, something that you witnessed, uh, or a betrayal by somebody, by an institution as well, or a leader that you trusted. And there's a couple of different definitions. And I do want to give Jonathan Shea, because he was the pioneer for moral injury. Um so his first definition was that moral injury um as a betrayal-based trauma of what's right by someone who holds a legitimate um authority in higher stake situation. And he came out from this by working with um Vietnam veterans. And then Brett Lintz kind of expanded that a little bit. Um, that moral injury is a result from perpetrating, fail to prevent, or bearing witness, or learning about acts that transgress deeply held values and moral beliefs. And then our working model at VOA is that moral injury is a complex soul wound resulting from perpetrating failure to act, witnessing, or experiencing betrayal that conflicts with one's deeply held values and moral beliefs. And so that is our working definition that we use. Um, and we also um use what we call the two-mirror model, um, Dwayne Larson and Jeff Suss. Um, it's called Care for the Sorrowing Soul. It's a great book um that explains the two-mirror model, and we we use that um when we are helping veterans with moral injury. And so I it's just when I started moral injury work, there wasn't this specific conversation about military sexual trauma, um, about MST. And so when I realized um after going through my own healing, and I'm always still healing, that was one of the things I remember my very first group. Um, there was a woman that was in there, she's a good friend now, um, and a coworker. She looked at me and was like, Brie, you are so together all the time. And when you hit the group and you broke down and bared your soul, she was like, Okay, like she's human. And I I I kind of forgot that telling my story and being a part of it helps other people because if I don't, then I just look like, oh, look, I patched everything up and I put it all together. And that's not true because healing is not linear.

Valerie 21:52

Oh man, I'm so glad you said that.

SPEAKER_00 21:54

Always going.

Valerie 21:55

Yeah, that's like I think every episode since I've started this podcast, somewhere. Someone, either myself or the guest, says it's not linear. And also that put togetherness can sometimes be a trauma response. Yes. I found that out because I'm like, oh, I got my shit together. And yeah, I must be doing great because I don't have, you know, no, I'm just avoiding. So I get all of that. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:22

I just put the mask on. I'm perfect. I know what I'm supposed to do. Um, but I was still underneath all of that. You know, a lot of studies have shown with military sexual trauma that uh survivors have a significant rate of like major depressive disorder, anxiety disorders, panic disorders, sleep disruptions, emotional dysregulation, depression, anxiety, you know, substance use, eating disorders, suicidal thoughts and behaviors is, and that's where I got to at a point. And so many survivors are not just struggling with emotions, but they're struggling with the chronic anxiety and hypervigilance and, you know, depression and sleep problems. So when all of that gets put on and you're masking it, eventually that mask is gonna have to come

Brianna’s 988 Turning Point

SPEAKER_00 23:14

off. And mine came off to the point of where I almost tried to commit, or didn't almost try, I tried to commit suicide. I was on the top of that bell curve, and I was sitting in my car writing a note to my kids thinking that they were better off without me. And I did all the safety things. I called my dad, I called my friends. Of course, I was just leaving, drinking, and hanging out, and I was at at a high with a bunch of friends, and it was right after my divorce, and I my kids were with their dad. I remembered pulling in my driveway and sitting there, and all of a sudden the emotions dropped. That just knowing that I was about to go to a home with nobody there was painful. And of course, alcohol misuse, all the other stuff. And um, so I did what I was supposed to do when I called. And unfortunately, it was at 2 a.m., nobody answered the phone.

SPEAKER_02 24:13

Oh gosh.

SPEAKER_00 24:14

And so I got to the point of okay, this is it. So I I went in, I drove into my driveway and uh shut the garage door behind me, and I sat and wrote a note. And all the things that I wanted to say to my kids, all the things, um, because I have two beautiful girls, and I'm so happy I'm here and their mom and with them now. Um and I just said I I was done. I was done feeling hyper-vigilant, I was done having anxiety. And I remember I used to send a text to my ex, and I was sitting there like shaking, or I have to shut off my phone, or I would call my best friend afterwards and just ball. So I was having these reactions that during the day it took so much energy to be so put together, but at nighttime I just completely was falling apart. Um, and so by the grace of God, I got off of that um the top of the bell curve and I came back down and I called 988 and the wonderful 988 lady. Um, I wish I knew her name and I could thank her, but she she strongholded me and was like, if you do not open up your garage door, the sheriffs are coming to your house real quick. And I was like, Okay, that is something that I don't, because I still had the facade. I don't want my neighbors to know anything about. Um, and so opened up the garage door. I talked to her for a little bit. Um, I got a call from the sheriff's office, and that's when I started therapy right after that, which also led me into my journey of getting my doctoral degree in behavioral health because I wanted to understand why I got to the point that I did.

Valerie 25:58

Yeah, why am I like this? I I can relate 100% to to the asking the question and and I'm glad you're here.

SPEAKER_00 26:08

Yeah, I am too. I couldn't imagine all the amazing things, and now I'm engaged again.

Valerie 26:14

Oh, congratulations.

SPEAKER_00 26:15

Um, yeah, it just happened a couple of weeks ago while we were in Jamaica. Um and so my life wouldn't be turning around. I wouldn't be able to help people. And so I really, I really feel like it was the universe kind of stepping in and going, girl, you're not done yet. You are healer, you're a helper. You have a purpose here, and I need you to find it. Your hope, your why. This is your why. And so when I moved into this position, um, I still had the distrust and I isolated or the emotional numbing or the difficulty being closeness and vulnerable. And so this job actually really helped me because I had to be vulnerable in order for people to want to talk to me, especially about suicide. Yep. And especially now that I run the military sexual trauma uh retreats, I have to open up and telling that story and bringing it from my flight or flight response, because if I'm living in that all the time, I'm not gonna be able to heal. So being able to sit there and talk about it and bringing it to my prefrontal cortex to really understand um has helped me. Every time I do these, every time I do a retreat, every time I hear a veteran story, whether it be female or male, um, it it just helps me process even more when I share and connect with them. And so I'm really blessed and thankful to have the opportunity um to be able to connect in veterans in such a deep way.

Valerie 27:47

Yeah. And it sounds like they got a superst when they hired you because you you clearly are so passionate about what you do. And, you know, it's it's important for us to understand that our story matters in in such a way, in such a deep, meaningful way. More so I think I'm just finding this for myself. I've I feel like the more I grow and the more growth opportunities I have, which means the more challenges I have, like it's a growth opportunity. And that's how I have to choose to look at it because it's not a spiral. It's not, I'm going backwards. It's again just not a linear journey. And so every time I have an opportunity to grow and learn something new, I am giving someone else another like step up. Like someone else is is benefiting from some of my suffering and it wasn't for nothing. And that's something like as a healer, like, and I love that you called yourself that because it's okay for us to say, like, yeah, I'm a healer, but we are wounded healers, so we can only pour from the wounds that we have. So if you're um walking me through something that you've experienced, you're pouring out of that wound in into me or into another person and really seeing them. And it takes an incredible amount of bravery to be vulnerable enough to be seen like that and to be seen and know that you're still fully loved, even if the internet doesn't say so, even if, you know, I get thumbs down on this episode and you suck. I don't really care because somebody else needed to hear what was said, and it takes that ego has to get out of the way for me to be able to be vulnerable enough to be real and make a mistake and tell you I don't have it all together. I really don't. And I just put it in right, and I just keep putting one foot in front of the other. Has there ever been a veteran or an experience uh through the retreats that you have run or just the groups that um changed you unexpectedly in a way?

SPEAKER_00 30:02

Oh I think everyone has changed me, and I think that's the hardest thing about answering this question is because every story, even with my male veterans that sit down and have conversations with me, and I've had some amazing conversations with my male counterparts and my brothers at arms. Each story is so unique that I could pull a little bit of myself, and it doesn't matter what era of war that they're in, um that I can connect with, but girl, I'll have to say my first retreat that I did, um I didn't realize the impact. And of course, I'm very professional. I have to do the emotional numbing, I have to do all of that while I'm there in order to provide a retreat because I'm the facilitator going through it. Uh, but afterwards, I was destroyed. I had the biggest emotional breakdown that I've had in a while.

Valerie 31:11

Yeah. And you segued into my exact next question. There's a cost, right? To to holding this kind of space and to doing this kind of work. And I'll ask you the same thing. Like, what do you do to take care of yourself in in that?

Self Care And Boundaries For Helpers

SPEAKER_00 31:27

That is that's difficult because when you have two young kids as well, right? Um, when you create life, uh, they always come first. Um, but a lot of the times, so my spouse now, he's a huge camper, and I have now grown to love camping and being outdoors. Um, but I'm a huge dancer. I absolutely love to dance. So I would put on music, I would just dance around my kitchen. My girls, whenever we do transitions back and forth and they're having hard transitions, we'll dance it out in the kitchen. Love that. And um, I did yoga for a little while. Uh, I should get back into yoga. Um, I always think of like the body keeps the score and what's a he always talks about like yoga and meditation, and yeah, I have a hard time sitting in silence. Um, I think that's why I'm always doing something, always helping, always going, or I either have to numb it out, like get stuck to my phone on TikTok and scroll. Um, just because every conversation that has happened in my head for the last 15 years, if I said one thing wrong, we're talking about that perfection, all of a sudden I will walk through that whole conversation of why didn't I say this, or what did I go with that way, or anything else like that. And so I've noticed silence is not the best thing for me in my journey. Um, I've tried, not very good at it. I will say that I'm not a silent person. And anyone that knows you, I'm a very loud person a lot of the time.

Valerie 33:04

I'm really I can relate.

SPEAKER_00 33:06

I'm very, I say what I want. I'm very opinionated. I'm so I'm a I'm a dancer. Dancing is my way of releasing and moving my body or screaming songs at the top of my lungs, even when I'm feeling big emotions, because they say emotions last for 90 seconds. Yep. Playing a song and I scream it out helps me get that.

Valerie 33:30

Me too. I I have found, and I've talked about this before, screaming is so therapeutic for me. Um, and I used to kind of make fun of myself about it. It was like these like, I'm sort of screaming, or I'm screaming out this song, but now I don't even need music, girl. I will just get in my car and I crack the window enough so whatever comes out goes out the window. I'm like, ah, like it just like it has to go, and it feels so liberating to me. Janine and I actually screamed off the top of a mountain. You have to ask her about that story. I'll have to tell you. Um, but it it's movement is huge for getting those things off of our nervous system so that they can move through and process them through. And that's been a huge part of my healing and what I can really appreciate. And there, you know, there's all kinds of suicide prevention programs, and there's so many different things. Some of them are programs that promote change and tools and give you all the things you need to walk you ABC through here's how you deal with this. And then there's some transformational programs that are like, no, let's get down deep into all the things, like the source of your relationships. Let's dig into your childhood, let's look at your ACES score, let's, you know, all of these things. And you're like, I think I'm gonna break into 27 pieces. I can't take all of this. So I'm saying all that to say that it is very much an individual journey. And I appreciate you sharing with us that dancing is huge for you. I love that too. And um, just moving your body in general, I found for me is is an incredible way to take care of myself. And it's interesting when people ask me, Well, you do this podcast and you do forensic nursing, and you how do you how do you do all these things? And I'm like, I do a lot of meditating, which is not easy for me because I also have a squirrel brain and do all the things, but but giving myself the space and learning how to take care of my nervous system so I can assure whoever I'm with, like, you don't need to worry about me. I am taking care of myself. Because there was a time, I don't know if you can relate to this at all, but there was a time where I thought I was helping by holding space and absorbing and being there for people, but I wasn't releasing it. I didn't know how to release it. And I thought I was releasing it by just like, okay, I prayed about it on my way home, or just like maybe shake my hands a little bit, like, okay, I'm done with this. Um, but I didn't realize I was really internalizing that. And I knew I was doing that because I was waking up thinking about that person, or would find that like sort of like rescuer part of me coming up, like, oh, I bet if I told them this, and I was the first to fire off 27 books and oh, try this website, try this program, do this, do that, and then find myself going, well, if they would have just done what I told them to do, they wouldn't be suffering so much, which is so arrogant and so rude. And I apologize to anyone listening if I ever did that to you without you asking me to, because now I'm realizing we have to take ownership of our own healing, myself included. So if you want something that I have, then I'm happy to share it with you if you ask. But to push it on somebody was only just causing me to feel even more like, what am I doing in this space? Should I even be in this space? And re-traumatizing people in a way that I didn't realize when I really was just trying to help. And so sometimes the helpers need help learning how to help properly, and that's called boundaries. So I don't know how we got the trail. I don't know. That's a whole nother episode. Real boundaries.

SPEAKER_00 37:00

What is that? Yeah, I had to cross those boundaries to realize that they were there. And that's a learning experience because you know, and so it just uh it was just it was just hard learning that it is okay to say no, and I tell my girls this all the time. No is a sentence. Sure is.

Valerie 37:25

I tell I have to tell myself that a lot because hear me the right way, I will say yes to things, and it's not because I feel obligated. I really want to do them. And somehow I end up overloading myself, and then I'm like, why do I feel bad? And why am I tired? And why, you know, so I have to have those people in my life that hey, go, hey, you said because I love you, that I can tell you these things, and I'm like, dang it. Yeah, I am doing that, aren't I? And so it's important to find your people and have those boundary conversations that, you know, if um somebody else tries to put those boundaries on me, I'm like, you don't know me. Don't tell me I'm doing too much. You're not in my inner circle. You can only tell me that if you're if you really know. Because I think as a healer for me, I do have more capacity than the average person. And it's not always been that way. Some, but I have to learn to recognize my capacity. Um, and that is just by really listening to my body and like, am I taking on too much? And even this morning I was driving and I was like, man, I have this weird like flutter tightness behind my chest this morning. And there was nothing in particular going on in my mind that I could think of. And I I really had to like just slow down, like, where is this coming from? And then I realized there was about five things that I in the back of my mind was running ahead that I need to do already for tomorrow. And I'm like, I'm still in today. And but it took me slowing down enough and asking myself, like, what is it, where is this coming from? Oh, it's because I'm not present. I'm thinking about tomorrow when I actually have these things I need to do today. So um, it's just a really hard thing to learn to do when you're in the thick of it, and people are telling you, do this boundary, have this, do that. And you're like, I can't even take a shower.

SPEAKER_00 39:13

How do you develop boundaries? Like, what are healthy boundaries? Yeah. What happens when someone gets mad that you set a boundary that you've never done? Like there's so much more to it.

Valerie 39:23

Just thinking about that still gives me a little lump in the throat. I don't like when people are mad at me.

SPEAKER_00 39:27

Yeah.

Valerie 39:27

Um, but I'm getting real quick at getting over that. Like, I'm much better at that now. Like, you can be you can be mad at me. You're allowed to think that. You can be mad. Um, I'll own my part if I need to, but to not take that codependent side of it anymore is such a huge relief. Um, you know, we're like getting off on all the rabbit trails right now, but but it's just so important because it's all it's all tied together. Like, I don't know how to articulate this perfectly, but like I thought for a long time, like I just had all this mishmosh thinking and all this stuff going on because I had, you know, been raped and had sexual trauma. Dude, no. Like, yes, that's part of the story, but all the things surrounding that before and after, the trauma wasn't what happened to me. Yeah, that was terrible. And I wish that on no one, and I'm sorry that it happened to me. I am. I'm sorry that it happened to me. I'm sorry that it happened to you, and I'm sorry that happened to anyone, and it's not okay. But what I did with that is where the trauma set in. So allowing that to just be buried is what caused me to have all of these things that you listed earlier: the hypervigilance, the insomnia, the body keeps the score. I say that all the time. And and there's I barely scratch the surface of that. Like I'm a I'm gonna be a lifelong student of figuring this out.

SPEAKER_00 40:50

Oh, 100%.

Valerie 40:51

And I hope so. I hope that I I never figure it out because I want to continue to grow. So it's well, there's always more.

SPEAKER_00 40:57

Psychology is always growing, we're always learning new things. And you know, when we're talking about like moral injury, especially with military sexual trauma and it being that betrayal-based trauma. PTS and PTSD is that fear-based. So you relive when you have a PTS episode, you relive how you felt during that life-threatening event. Moral injury. So PTSD often says that I'm not safe, and that's why your flight or flight response starts to go. Moral injury often says that I'm not worthy. Because with the fear base, you have all of those um like the depression and hypervigilance and um all of that that goes with having PTSD or PTS. Moral injury is often really centered around shame and guilt and self-blame and feeling dirty or unforgivable or loss of meaning or spirituality. Um moral injury usually doesn't just stay in the military. And I know we're talking about, you know, military sexual trauma and moral injury. You can get a moral injury anywhere. Yep. Anywhere. Um, so moral injury doesn't just stay in the military. It usually often follows veterans home into their marriages, into parenting, into friendships, into intimacy, and to the ability to feel or to not feel emotionally safe with others.

SPEAKER_02 42:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:34

Um, and that's really hard to live with every day of always feeling that you're not emotionally safe or saying that I am not worthy.

Valerie 42:45

And that's a that's a big distinction. Like the difference between fear-based reliving versus I'm a piece of crap, I'm defective, I'm helpless, and I'm alone, and I don't deserve anybody to help me. And when you put those two things together, which is the place I found myself in and like I'm sure the place you found yourself too. That's that's how you end up closing the garage door. Like that's that's what happens. And it is so important to break that stigma and working with um like yourself, you work with suicide prevention. You know, I wanted to ask you what gives you hope when you're facing some of these uh difficult conversations with with these people? What gives you hope in those moments?

SPEAKER_00 43:34

Watching their shoulders go down and they sit back and take a breath. So I also I teach assist trainings as well. And one of the biggest things is that you have to give them the agency and the choice. So we're talking we're everyone's talking about trauma-informed chick, uh trauma informed care and everything else like that. You have to give them the choice. You have to give them the agency. They have to be in control. They Um, and so one of the biggest things during those moments of even when someone is getting to the point of just saying, Would you like a glass of water? And then saying, Yes. Okay, I get them a cold glass of water to h help with their nervous system and help calm that down. We do the five things you see, you hear, you taste, you smell. Um, telling them to take off their shoes and what does the floor feel like? What does this chair that you're sitting in feeling like? And once you start seeing their nervous system kind of relax and they actually take a deep breath from their belly, not just in their chest, is a moment that gives me hope. Um because they have carried something for so long. And this might be the first time that they're talking about suicide. It might be the first time, you know, that they have even realized that this is what it's leading up to. Um, because we have so much stigma and shame when we talk about suicide. Um, and I really I try to break that barrier, one by telling my story, um, and two, just knowing that they're not alone and we're going back to the isolation again. And so many veterans are distrusting because of the system, because of different things, and they emotionally numb, you know, and start unhealthy coping skills, which many unhealthy coping skills um usually start as uh survival strategies.

SPEAKER_02 45:30

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 45:31

And that's how they survived. And so when someone is finally getting it and finally understanding just watching them breathe from their belly for the first time and having that moment just to relax and process, that's what gives me hope. It continues to be the reason why I do is because just even seeing that little bit in a veteran um lets me feel like they are starting to right when we do it in assist training, it's that but, that if, that why. It's lights, um lights uh it's life's side speaking out. It doesn't have to be, you don't have to understand it. You don't have to fully um know your purpose immediately. You think after I started therapy that I was like, I'm gonna go get my doctorate degree now. Like I'm gonna go figure it out. Like, no, but there is some part of me, my life side, that was speaking out that was saying, but why? Possibly, maybe there is an uncertainty there that I called 988.

SPEAKER_02 46:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:48

There was something there that was telling me, nope, you're not quite done yet. And it took me a little while to figure out. I went the complete opposite and got my MBA. So it's not like I went straight into my doctoral degree. I was like, nope, switching to finance. Um, and went and got my MBA for all of that. I just that moment, that that glimmer of life side kind of poking out, that keeps me going. Because if you can get that, even just one veteran and Janine talk, Janine again, talk about it all the time. If if it's just one, that's all it takes. That's all I need. Give me one at a time. Even I do these retreats and have these conversations, and I love doing them, but even that one person that comes and needs to sit into my office or I get a phone call going, hey Brie, I have this veteran that is, you know, having extreme suicidal ideation and is actively, you know, in that. Can you please come and talk? Can you please come and help? I I have seen multiple of them again, and just knowing that they're around for me to be here to help again, if need be, I pray that it's that's not the way that they find their way. But there's still times where I struggle with my suicidal ideation. There's some times, but I've I've gained the coping skills to be able to walk through it. Um because, like I said, my survival strategies in the beginning, they weren't very healthy and they became very unhealthy coping. Uh, and so being able to see that in somebody, and I know that there must have been a person that saw it in me that that I hope, and I want to be that person to somebody else. That's beautiful. Hey, there is an uncertainty there, so let's figure this out. Are you ready to figure it out? If not, let's just sit for a while. I'm okay. I remember sitting on a doorstep with a veteran for three hours just in silence. Not leaving, not talking, not you know, telling my story, not trying to pull their story out of them. Yeah, so important.

Valerie 49:14

Presence, presence is the medicine. I've said that over and over. Like, presence is the medicine. Like, you don't have to know what to say or what to do. And in fact, maybe just saying, I don't really know what to say here, but I'm right here. Like I'm physically right here, and like co-regulating with somebody. And I've learned some hard lessons that way, and you know, I firmly believe like you gotta tell your story, you gotta tell your story, and trying to pull things out of people. If you just say it, you know, the shame dies. And those things are true, but like there's a time and a place, and I'm not your therapist, and this is probably not the place for you to, you know, without taking some care. And I'm so appreciative of my own journey and realizing that because I think it makes me a better witness. And that's what we talk about is like that sacred witnessing. And that literally is what it is is just you know, defiance of silence. Yes, we need to break the stigma. We don't want to be silent any longer. Um and I love how you said in the beginning, like women are coming out more like telling their truths and saying, like, no, this happened to me and it's not okay, and being able to see each other, but breaking the silence on that aspect, but also on the other side, sitting with silence so that you can hold the space for somebody else. Those two things are um important that they exist at the same time. And you just described exactly what being a sacred witness is just sitting with somebody, and you don't have to fix them. And I can appreciate the times that somebody just sat with me, and I'm a big talker, so it didn't take much to get me to say stuff, but it took me a lot. I had to learn the hard way to stop talking. And and I had some people that love me along the way to say, like, listen, you talk too much, in the sense of like, I just need to be witness. And so it was that journey for me, and I'm like, okay, I talk too much. How can I use my voice though? Because I have one, but I'm not worthy to use this voice, like I'm just gonna say stupid things, and then you know, I wake up one morning and I'm like, Oh, I'm gonna do a podcast. So here we are. But I guess I'm saying all that just to say, like, you you embody and just represented so well exactly what this podcast is about, and exactly the types of people that are healers, and that I just thank you for being in that space because we need you. We need you, and I'm glad that you're here, and I'm glad that you have um this mission that you know clearly you're so passionate about because people need you. People need your story, people need your um just your spirit, and I can just see that on you that you're just a bright light in that place wherever you're at, wherever you're going in these retreats. I know that the women that are gonna go to those are gonna be really, really blessed.

Retreat Access And Culture Change

Valerie 52:00

Um, if they want to find these retreats, how do they find you? Do they have to live in a specific state? Is this nationwide? Tell us a little bit how we can get that word out even more.

SPEAKER_00 52:11

So these retreats are specifically um just because VOA is by region. And so our region is the Northern Rockies, so it's Montana, Wyoming, and a little bit of South Dakota. And they would just go on to VOA Moral Indry and click the retreats, and there is a link to sign up for the retreats.

Valerie 52:33

So if you're in the Northern Rockies and you're hearing this, yes, go sign up.

SPEAKER_00 52:38

I hope one day these will be nationwide across every single state. Like there are things Let me let's bring this to every VOA out there. Let's bring this to every, yeah.

Valerie 52:55

I want to talk about one more thing real quick that we talked about when we were um initially talking about having this conversation in this space. You mentioned something that struck me, and you talked about, and this is something like I don't want to step on anybody's toes, but I'm gonna go there. People don't want to hear about this. They don't want to hear about it, they don't want to talk about it, especially certain men, especially in certain spaces. And when you talk about uh veteran organizations and like myself, I went to one veteran organization and that was the bro club of the bro clubs, and nobody, you know, and so I'm not I'm not knocking them or making them wrong. It just, it just for me was like, oh, I can't trust any of this. And when you start to have the conversations with them about moral injury and sexual trauma, um, they don't want to hear it. They want to talk about something else or guide it another way. And you said something on our call about your directness and how you handle those situations. And I would love for you just to share a little bit what that's like for you stepping into those spaces and talking about this in a room full of people that maybe don't want to hear it. Like people listening to this podcast, they are, you know, tuning in, they want to hear this conversation, or they can just close it and say, screw them, I don't want to hear this. And that's fine. That's their choice and totally honor and respect that. But when you're going into a space where there are veterans that maybe need to hear what you have to say, and this is the reception that you're getting, do you feel like that climate is changing, or is it still an uphill battle? Like how much more work do we have to do in that space?

SPEAKER_00 54:32

We're always gonna have to do work in that space, um, because it is a space, unfortunately. Um it's something like we talked about earlier, that it's so common and it happens to men and women. And so because that part is not changing, and veterans are still coming out with it, both male and female. And I, you know, I do feel like the numbers that I said earlier aren't the real numbers because of underreporting or people not connected to the VA or something like that.

Valerie 55:15

Yeah, I agree a hundred percent, and that's a whole nother topic. That's a whole nother topic.

SPEAKER_00 55:18

That's a whole nother topic, yeah. Yeah, same thing about suicide rates. I always think that they're higher just because of misreporting or overdrinking or overdoses or you know, car crashes that were an attempt but deemed as a car crash. Um, and so I don't give I try to be respectful a lot of the time. Um, but there are conversations that need to be have that are really uncomfortable. And when I approach uh organizations that have a hard time with hearing topics about military sexual trauma, I first start talking about conversations that they know. Um, talking about veterans and military sexual or militar. I'm so used to saying that back and forth, talking about veterans, um, and then going into how hard it is about transitions, um, especially coming from military life to civilian life, you know, going to black and white to a whole lot of gray. And a lot of veterans hate living in the gray area. Um and then I start kind of moving it on to moral injury and what moral injury is. And then I slowly build the conversation, um, only because there are parts and there are times where I will have to be direct. And the time that you're talking about, um I went through all of that already. And I got to a point of going, listen, we just sat and had a conversation about how you don't have enough female members. Um, the younger generation is not joining your organization. There's a systematic problem within that organization and all these different things, and like because you're not hitting the topics that are actually concerning us. It feels like you are stuck in an era uh where certain things are allowed to be talked about. And this is why you're going to have a really hard time with the younger generation of veterans that are coming through because change is inevitable. Everything has to change. You're not going to stay like just basic business model, too. Businesses that don't grow and change usually are the ones that get left behind. You guys are having a hard time. You're trying to figure out numbers, you're trying to figure out things, because you're being so stuck in where you are, you're not growing, you're not changing. And this is a topic that we need to have a conversation about.

SPEAKER_02 58:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:07

Um and it's just it it's tough. Uh, I mean, we could talk about talking about moral injury and you know, suicide. The highest rate of uh death by suicide is usually by a gun. And we live in a very um, very uh gun right state, especially up in the northern Rockies, Montana, Wyoming, and South Dakota. And I, my family's hunters, you know, everything else. I am not against guns at all whatsoever. But there's also the mental health aspect. And so it's the same thing. When you have a touchy conversation, I come at it of more of a logic, more of a business model. And that's where surprisingly my business degree has come into it very well because when we're talking about a lot of the times the conversations that I have, they're like, you're not gonna take my guns away, like you can't tell me when to have it. And you know, when I am suicidal or have those thoughts, like I could keep safe, like I'll give them to somebody. And I'm like, okay, when have you had those thoughts before? Your prefrontal cortex completely shuts off, and you are not thinking and having a conversation with me the way that we're doing it now. And I know that because I was there. I was not thinking, I was not logical. I was in my emotional side of my brain, my amygdala and my hippocampus were going berserk, letting one of the analogies that I like is there's a horse in barns, uh, there is a horse's in a barn and it got lit on fire, and now all of my horses are scattering and running. Yep. And so when that scattering and running is happening, we're not processing things through our prefrontal cortex, we're not using our thinking side of our brain. And so we do things that unfortunately have permanent consequences. The same thing applies when I talk about military sexual trauma. It's always going to be there until that, a different system has other things in place, it's always going to be there. Um when the military, you know, when people transition out of the military, it's always going to be an issue for men and women, no matter what. So how are we going to address this? Because if you work with an organization that addresses, you know, suicide, because for a long time that wasn't addressed in veterans. Um, a lot of people think it's just weak-mindedness when it comes when we talk about suicide. But now we're realizing that it's it's a crisis that's happening with veterans coming out. That's the same thing with military sexual trauma. It's a crisis that's happening. And the more we try to stigmatize it, the more we try to put it away, the higher the numbers are gonna start growing.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:16

And the higher the suicides will grow and everything will just keep going. So we need to stop this and we need to talk about it and actually have the conversations because now there's so many organizations, you know, that have suicide prevention as a part of their mainstream, which is fantastic. But you know how long it took for us to get to this point?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:41

Yeah. Let's be on the forefront with, you know, military sexual trauma because it's not going away.

Valerie 1:01:49

Right. It's not going away. And and to be fair, like you come out, you transition from your military service and you have all these things, and it's rare for somebody to just come out the gate and be like, yep, these things happen. You know, usually we stuff it down for a while before we can't anymore. And then we're like, okay, I guess I have, you know, for me it was longer. And I'm like, ooh. But what I was gonna say is that going to an organization that's stuck just adds to the moral injury. It just adds to it. And that's the point I'm trying to make is I just want people to be awake to it and aware. Like, yeah, maybe me as an individual, I can't walk into an organization and be like, this needs to change, but I can affect those around me and and be willing to talk about it and have the hard conversations. And no, I don't need to walk into Starbucks and be like, hey, y'all, you need to hear all this. But when the opportunity arises, like that flutter in my chest, I'm gonna have to fly through that flutter and maybe just be a little more bold about like, no, this needs to change. And I'll be honest, I avoid the VA. I'm not I'm not having a racket against the VA right now. That's not why I'm saying it. But in general, for me, I have found other methods that feel safer to me. And I get that. So that alone, like I'm one of the numbers that didn't re you know, didn't report. So now officially it's report, you know, it's all reported. That's a whole nother thing. But I just the rate that we're losing veterans and the rate that um I would love to see some data. I'm sure there's some out there, I don't know how they would even collect all this data in that way. I'm not a researcher. I wish I was, but how like how does that correlate? You may know this. How does that correlate the suicide rate versus that with the MST? Like, do we have any data that puts that together so that you can say, yep, these particular veterans that committed suicide actually had MST? Um, like, is there solid data on that? If I if we can trust any data in all that matter?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:50

Well, so so research actually connects military sex or trauma with PTSD, increases um a person's PTSD and their symptoms. Umnected with depression, suicide, substance use. Um, a systematic review found that military sexual assault had a stronger relationship with adverse mental health outcomes than other military uh experiences. And um usually social support is what helped reduce those outcomes. Uh so there is research that is out there. Um military sexual trauma is uh is strongly associated with more severe PTSD symptoms and chronic symptoms over time. And when I mean chronic symptoms, it could be intimate partner relationships, it could be depression, anxiety, even physical health. So one of the things that I talk about with moral injury is the physical health that happens. And so just a couple of things like MST moral injury is strongly associated with chronic pain, um, gastroenter. Oh my gosh.

Valerie 1:05:09

Gastroenteritis.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:11

It is tummy issues, headaches, fatigue, autoimmune and flame problems, sleep disruptions, uh, nervous system dysregulations. And so eventually the mental and and will start to show in the physical. Yep. And it doesn't, trauma doesn't just show up in lived memories. It shows in the nervous system and it also shows up physically within the body. And so when we're talking about our nervous system, like your your palms start sweating, your heart starts fluttering, like I realize I start speaking more and having conversations, but there is help out there and healing really does happen in connections. Um shame, especially moral injury shame and guilt and self-blame usually grows in silence. And recovery grows in safe relationships and safe communities and being seen without judgment. And so when you're pulling all that in, we need to talk

Rebuilding Moral Resilience Through Connection

SPEAKER_00 1:06:21

about this. We need to have avenues where people can go to be able to heal and build their moral resiliency. Um, when we're talking about moral injury, I know one of the things we talked about on the phone is how do we heal from this? Because we are talking about the bad all the time and about the unfortunate things and the side effects that happen with someone that has experienced moral injury and then MST, and then on top of that, having PTS or PTSD, how do we start healing from it? How do we start growing into a place um to where even though you know PTSD and moral injury often overlap because, you know, the fear-based and the value-based wound? Um moral injury more sounds like what happened to me should have never happened to me. And so how to we how do we rebuild um survivors moral resilience so we can start working through these things? Because, you know, there's a lot of great things for PTSD, like EMDR, cognitive behavioral therapy. There's a lot of great stuff. But if we're also not treating the moral injury aspect of it, their purpose, their why, their hope. A lot of times people start falling into spirals again because we're not building up that moral aspect of it.

Valerie 1:07:50

Yeah, it that's that's like where the soul work comes in. And that was the piece for me was like, okay, I knew all the things. Like my brain knew I'm a smart person. I could figure out I'm I'm I'm doing my homework, I'm doing what I'm asked to do. But like, why am I still having all these things? And it was realizing that that soul piece was missing because what happened to you was horrible and it broke your soul, it broke you open. And that somatic piece is so important to be able to move those things through your body and um and your soul could be your inner conscious too.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:21

Like I always try to I get that question a lot that it's specifically um about religion. And moral injury is not about religion, it's about your morals and ethics. And so if someone had an issue with the soul part of it, they could do their inner self, their inner conscious, their Jiminy Cricket part of themselves, you know? Yeah, the spidey sense. That's what I mean. The spidey sense, yeah. You don't pit in your belly.

Valerie 1:08:46

Um I tell my kids, uh, you know that the Holy Spirit is talking to you when you have the spidey sense, and they're like, oh, the spidey. They know that it's it. It's yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:57

So but I do want to touch on, you know, moral resiliency just because hope and recovery does happen. And it's so important because all it takes is asking for help or clicking that link or applying, even if it's someone's first time ever deciding to do a retreat or even talk to me about it. Um, but recovery is possible. Um, I don't say recovery is that it's never gonna happen and you're never gonna get activated again, or something else is not gonna activate you. It's gonna happen and you're gonna have to process and work through it and making sure we're getting those healthy coping skills instead of those unhealthy survival strategies that turn into coping skills. Um, but you know, there are a lot of protective factors like peer support, social connection, trauma-informed care, um, safe relationships. That was a big one for me. Um, my spouse now has graciously, and thank you, I love you. Shout out to Leon, um, has allowed me space to not be okay. And has loved me through it.

Valerie 1:10:09

Yeah. And not everyone has that. And I want to just acknowledge, oh man, I I also am blessed to have that for myself. Yeah. Um, and but I am in relationship with those who do not have that. And I see and feel the anguish of that. So I just want to acknowledge those that are listening that that are saying, yeah, yeah, not for me though. And I I I see you and I acknowledge that. And that is really hard. It's really hard. So reaching out to somebody else or have, you know, just finding your people. But but I I would be, I would be wrong to not just say, like, not everyone has that, and that's that's something special if you do. Um, but if you do not, like you are still worthy of that, and you are still loved, and you still deserve to have somebody in your corner, even if that's a paid therapist. Like there, there is somebody that can be in your corner. It does not have to be an intimate partner that way. So so hear that the right way. I don't want anyone to be confused or shame themselves that you know they don't have that, or their spouse, you know, is a problem, or their significant other is maybe struggling too. Like, there's points in in my marriage I've talked about before. My husband and I both have had to work through some things. So it hasn't always been this way. It's taken a lot of work to be able, I had to be a safe person for him to be a safe person. Like it it took a lot of work on that. And that is also a whole nother podcast. And the whole other time. We're just like we are just squirreling everywhere. I'm so sorry, everyone. Um, but Brianna, I do want to ask you one last thing. If you could go back and give yourself, because we did talk about this earlier a little bit about transitioning out of the military, if you could go back to your younger self and give yourself um a piece of advice when you transitioned out of the Navy, what would you say to your former self or to somebody who's who's transitioning out now and not sure what to do with all this?

SPEAKER_03 1:12:10

Oh man, I would probably give it to myself before I got out.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:14

Umly because if I would have started working through this earlier, just imagine how far that I would be instead of pushing it away. So the first thing that I would do would be really to talk about moral resilience and that you can, um, only because my silence protected my moral injury. Um and so because I didn't have a safe place to tell my story, and so the first thing that I would do would be to one rebuild safety first, um because I surrounded myself um to what I feel like was an unsafe relationship, but I dug into that so deeply that no matter what happened, I stuck through it. Um I would tell my story but with control because I I I remember those nights of getting out of the military and you know, using alcohol and then just all of a sudden word vomiting because there's a part of me that wants to heal, that wants to be seen, that wants to be heard, but I'm numbing so badly that the only way that it's coming out is if I take off, you know, that part of my brain. And so I would tell myself to tell my story, but in control so I can start processing and working through it. Um I mean, I mean hindsight's always 2020, but I always I always would separate shame from responsibility because I took on um I I took both of them on as the same thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:31

And that was really hard. Um that all of this was me. And that's one of the things that we, you know, we do in the uh retreats is it's called a responsibility pie. And that hit me hard the first time that I saw the responsibility pie because I took it, I I was controlling what I couldn't control in the time. So because I can control my my grief and my shame, I took it on the responsibility 100%.

Valerie 1:15:04

Yeah, that's profound. That's a there's a profound difference, and it takes a lot of work to get to that point for you to even be able to articulate that. Like you could tell that you've done some work around that. And and that's that was a big me too as well. Just realizing that that piece, um, and even when I first was presented with that type of information, I was like, yeah, no, that doesn't land for me. This is totally nope, this I am responsible for myself. This, you know, and I had it so confused and so mixed up. So thank you for clarifying that. And and just truly like, I know that your younger versions of you are so proud of you. Like you're amazing, and that has been well.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:45

I had to grieve that part of me as well. Yes, that was a big one, is that I am rebuilding a new human being.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:54

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:56

I didn't know how to not be that person from before. I wanted to be that same person from before. I wanted to have the that light that was different. And I had to grieve that loss. Um, and that was a big thing for me because we're not survivors are not only grieving what happened, they're grieving who they were before.

Valerie 1:16:20

Yeah. And so many times I would say, I just want to be myself again. And I have realized now, no, I do not. I do not want to be that version of me. At the time, that's what I felt, but that that version of me was um, you know, locked away. There was there were so many things. So grief is a huge part of any journey, and grief is the part that hurts. So if you're trying to figure out Push it away.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:43

I wish I grieved way earlier. I'd told my younger self, I'd be like, grief.

Valerie 1:16:48

Grieve, grieve, lady, grief.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:50

Don't push it away.

Valerie 1:16:52

There, there's a kind of a friendly little joke that goes around my friend circle. Um, shout out to you guys, you know who you are. Uh, because in some of the 12-step work that I did, I was like coming to terms with this grief. And I had just gone through Save of War, and I'm like, okay, I'm ready to grieve after being numb for so long and having just like this little piece of this grief show up. And I was like, oh, that's grief. I didn't know that. So it was really like freeing. And so I'm like lighting the candles, and I'm like, okay, tonight's the night. I'm gonna grieve. And I go sit in my literally, this is a true story. I go sit in my recliner and I'm like in this like meditative position, like I'm waiting, like waiting for the grief to come. And I it I was like, this is bullshit, nothing's happening. Like I was like, what is going on? And I'm like, God, I don't know what's happening here, but I'm I'm giving you this time and I'm ready. And you know, I went back to my 12-step group the next week, and I'm legitimately telling this story. Like, I sat down, I agree, I try to grieve, and like I'm very like demonstrative when I'm telling a story. So I'm showing them like I'm sitting like this, and the leader starts laughing so hard. And at first I was like, why is she laughing? Like I was dead serious that I my question to her was, how does one grieve? Like I literally said, How does one grieve? I'm ready, like nothing's happening. And I can laugh now, but oh my gosh. I and that was a legit question. How does one grieve? And she was, she I think she wasn't sure what to do with me because I was like, I'm here for it, but I don't know how to do it. And boy, was that a journey. So grief's a whole nother we've got lots of episodes coming up on grief this season. So we'll we'll get to some of that. But thank you, Brianna, so much for just your presence and you being here and taking the time to have this very difficult conversations. And I just um God speed to you and blessings to you for doing the work that you do and taking the time um to share a little bit of your heart. And I hope that what people heard today was just a lot of hope. Because that's what I heard. And even though we have hard conversations to have, even though there's still bad things that are gonna happen to good people, even though we can't save everyone, um, we can save ourselves and we can be light to others. And that's exactly what you're doing. And I'm so thankful that you were here. And um, any parting words you'd like to say to our listeners?

Closing Reflection And Grounding

Valerie 1:19:23

Uh floor is yours.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:26

Yeah, um thank you again for having me on, Val. And it has been such an honor, one just to be able to talk and um kind of shine a light on moral injury, especially it's it's been coined since the 1994, but I still run into people every day. They're like, what is moral injury? So thank you so much for allowing me to talk about that and the specialty of what I do. And one parting thing that I would that I would like to say is that healing from MST moral injury or just moral injury in general is not about pretending that it didn't happen to you. Um, it's about rebuilding safety and reclaiming your voice, grieving what was lost, learning who is trustworthy, reconnecting with your values, remembering that the shame never belonged to the survivor, that moral resilience is not about bouncing back to who you were, but it's it's becoming a new whole you again with truth and support and purpose. And that's what I would like for them to take away from this is that healing is possible.

Valerie 1:20:41

I love that. Thank you so much. And like we do every episode, witnesses, we'll just take a moment, ground ourselves. We heard a lot of stuff today. If that activated anything in you, tough feelings, anything like that, please reach out to a trusted professional or friend or somebody, but don't sit with this alone. I know that that was a lot to hear. Um, and maybe it opened up some stuff for you, but know that um you're loved and worthy of being witnessed. And let's just take a moment and let go of the things that don't serve us and things that we're not meant to carry. So take a deep breath in, raise your palms to the sky. And as you blow out, push those palms up to the sky and push it away. Let it go. Thank you, Brianna.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:29

Yeah, thank you.

Valerie 1:21:41

Oh my goodness. Don't you just love Brianna? I could have talked to her so much longer. I hope you took something from what she had to say. You do not have to carry things alone. We talked about a lot of stuff throughout our discussion. She returned again and again to the importance of connection, community, and the courage it takes to tell the truth about what we're carried. So, those of you that are listening that may be carrying something heavy today, I hope this conversation reminded you that there's no shame in asking for support and no weakness in allowing yourself to be seen. Thank you for spending this time with us and witnessing Brianna's story. Until next time, take what serves you and leave what doesn't, and remember that you are worthy of being witnessed.