Between Two Turbines
The world of energy and the technology shaping it.
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Between Two Turbines
Green Hydrogen: The Future of Energy Storage - Jim McConville
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Between Two Turbines — #09 | Jim McConville
In this episode of Between Two Turbines, Senior Operations Director Jim McConville joins host Josh Tate to reflect on the evolution of NAES and explore one of the industry's most innovative energy projects. Drawing from decades of experience in power generation, Jim shares how the company has adapted alongside a rapidly changing energy landscape while remaining focused on operational excellence.
The conversation centers on the Advanced Clean Energy Storage (ACES) project in Utah, where green hydrogen is produced using renewable energy and stored deep within naturally occurring salt caverns. Jim explains how the project works, why long-duration energy storage is becoming increasingly important, and how hydrogen could play a critical role in supporting a more reliable, lower-carbon electric grid.
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The geography of that particular area having all these vast salt caverns that could be debrined of the salt and making room for the hydrogen storage just made it a a a perfect location for building what is, I believe, the the largest um in the United States of this size, um hydrogen generation facility of this size. Yeah. So really exciting.
SPEAKER_01Pretty impressive.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02The world of energy and the technology shaping it. I'm Josh Tate, and this is Between Two Turbines. Powered by NACE. Jim, welcome to the show. Thanks. I was looking a bit at your history at NASA, and um, you started before I was born, actually.
SPEAKER_00Is that right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I was born in '93, and you came in in '91.
SPEAKER_00Mm-hmm. That's right.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'm curious to hear kind of your time at NACE coming in and um obviously the progression over the years, but what was it like back in 91 when you got on board here?
SPEAKER_00Wow, a lot different than it is today. For sure. A much smaller company.
SPEAKER_02More uh grunge rock going around Nirvana, all those kind of things.
SPEAKER_00A little bit that you know, the interesting thing though is we all wore a suit and tie. Everybody wore a suit and tie every day to the office. Yeah, that's been a lot more casual today.
SPEAKER_02A lot more Patagonia going around.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, for sure. So yeah, when I first started out and stuff, I'd I'd come from working as a civilian employee of the Navy over at Puget Sound Naval Shipyard. And because of that Navy experience, I was actually interviewed for this job here with NACE. If I didn't have that background and stuff, I never would have been.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. What's what's the connection like for you? I think there is a lot of military presence at NASE, but um, you know, working at the shipyard. I'm from Kittsap County, so definitely got a lot of friends and family in the shipyard as well. Uh what was that transition like?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I transitioned first um from that that role and stuff, and I went back to school and got a business degree at the University of Washington. So that made the transition a little bit easier and moved over to the Seattle side from Bremerton. Yeah. Jim Fitzpatrick was a previous employee here and stuff, and he actually turned me on to NACE. He'd gotten a job at NACE about six months previous to that. And uh so he he told me about a particular op opening. And at the time, um, all the senior management of NACE was military, and not just military, but but uh Navy and nuclear navy. So I understood that. Oh, very much so. Very much so. They were all about verbatim compliance, and that was part of Rickover's nuclear navy.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00Um, so yeah, very much so.
SPEAKER_02You'd want that in the power industry, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I think, yeah, that was kind of uh, you know, a mark of nace and stuff that we were gonna do what we said we were gonna do.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00And we were gonna follow procedures and we were gonna operate, you know, plants safely and reliably.
SPEAKER_02Right. It do you feel like that through the years has been a common thread?
SPEAKER_00It has been. Yeah. I think we've maintained that even as we've diversified away from just hiring Navy personnel. Um so yeah, my first bosses were all admirals, you know, basically Commodores and admirals and captains. Yeah. You know, nothing lower than that. Sure.
SPEAKER_02I can see why suit and tie might have been a little more uh you know what what was that?
SPEAKER_00Very, very formal, very formal.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And and now, I mean, I think for me growing up, uh Seattle's very West Coast in a lot of ways. It's uh it can be laid back. We have the you know, the the vests, the Patagonia vests that we're famous for. I think that's kind of leaked into NASA a little bit too. Um you enjoy the change a little more laid back?
SPEAKER_00I do. Yeah. I learned a lot and stuff working for into that kind of culture and then evolving into the culture that we have today. But it it is a little more relaxed than it was previously, for sure.
SPEAKER_02I wonder kind of when Microsoft was coming up, and and I'm sure some of those some of that talents filtered in over here as well, and and that the way that culture, uh the the tech, tech bros, and and all of those things have really infiltrated the culture of Seattle. Um what's that like for you? You've been in the area for a while. Um I've enjoyed the changes quite a lot. I mean, uh I I sure like getting one-day shipping from Amazon. Uh-huh. Um, so I mean, I think about some of those things, and it it's a cool place. And NASA's kind of uh along for that ride.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, I I I enjoy it as well.
SPEAKER_02Talking about some of the technologies that you oversee, um, it it ranges quite a bit. You know, there's the combined cycle, there's wind, and even this hydrogen project. But tell me a bit of that portfolio, and you know, there's a lot of complexity in there, but uh, what's what's that like for you as as uh the leader of of some of these these different plants?
SPEAKER_00To me, it makes the job or keeps the job interesting. Yeah. So I love the the the diversity and stuff in the technologies and diversity and the type of clients that we have.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00So it's it's been great. And over the years and stuff, I started out mostly in well, you know, you're talking about back in 1991 when I joined and stuff, we only had six projects under contract at the time. And they were all either um biomass wood plants. Those are our first two facilities that we had, Bernie and Westwood down in California, and then uh gas turbine combined cycle plants.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, that's all we had for technology. Just just those two different technologies.
SPEAKER_02I mean, we've just exploded since then.
SPEAKER_00We've exploded since then, yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02You've been a part of uh the ride that whole time. And I I think there's um a little bit of a lack of knowledge about just how diverse the energy mix is in the U.S. And I'm curious to hear more about the uh hydrogen project, what we're calling green hydrogen. Isn't that correct?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, it's green hydrogen because we're using excess renewable energy that um th there isn't a demand for at certain times in the evenings and it would be wasted otherwise. It'd be wasted otherwise, exactly. It wouldn't be utilized. And and uh we're utilizing that to generate um hydrogen and then storing that hydrogen as a fuel to be used for, in this particular case, um for two um very modern uh high-tech uh gas turbines in a combined cycle mode um across the street uh with Intermountain Power Company, which is an old uh coal mine that is scheduled to be shut down. And so now they've pivoted and put in these Mitsubishi 501J gas turbines in combined cycle that can run on hydrogen, not completely on hydrogen.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00They're gonna start out with, I think, 5% or 10% of a mixture of natural gas and hydrogen.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But with the goal and with the understanding that they will transition to 100% hydrogen by year 2045.
SPEAKER_02I mean, that that's pretty cool to me hearing um taking a coal plant and essentially retrofitting it for this new technology. Um it's not something that I think gets talked about as the innovation. Um, obviously we're we've moved away a lot from coal to natural gas, and we're trying to, you know, reduce carbon emissions, all those things. But there are new technologies and and even more uh uh you know in the future. But this is a cool thing, turning a uh coal plant that would have been shut down and and being able to use green hydrogen. It's a big deal.
SPEAKER_00It is. Oh, it is very much so. And it you know, it's great for the community too, because they're gonna continue to staff this uh this new plant even as they shut down the coal plant.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So fewer fewer people, but some of them are actually coming over and working at at uh the hydrogen facility that we're operating. We haven't actually taken care custom control of the facility. We're hoping to do that as early as as the end of this month and may end up taking it over actually before all of the performance testing and all of the um EPC guarantees have been completed. Um so there's some discussion and negotiation going on there to see whether or not that can be uh that can happen. Um we're excited to do that. Uh we've been in this mobilization phase for about two years now. Yeah. We're just you know very excited to actually get into a production phase. Yeah. And and and be producing and having complete care custom control of the facility.
SPEAKER_02Do you foresee more of that in the future? More hydrogen plants? I mean, how many facilities are it?
SPEAKER_00We do. This one's very unique because um of its location. It's just super well suited for um where it's at. We had the need right, well, first of all, the infrastructure of Intermountain Powers, um, you know, substation, the infrastructure of having their gas turbines there that can use hydrogen as a fuel. So that was there. The demand was there for the use of hydrogen, and then just the geography of that particular area having all of these vast salt caverns that could be debrined of the salt and making room for the hydrogen storage just made it a a a perfect location for building what is, I believe, the the largest um in the United States of this size, um hydrogen generation facility of this size. Yeah. So really exciting. Pretty impressive. Yeah. I think this is the first of potentially others and stuff, but it does take, you know, a certain the locations are gonna have to be, you know, sp you know, really scrutinized very closely. Right. You know, do they have the infrastructure in place already there? Do they have a place where the hydrogen can be stored? Right, right. If you think about uh the siting of wind sites, it's gotta have a certain amount of wind and stuff in order to make it viable to actually, you know, place the site there. So there's a lot of uh, you know, a lot of research and stuff that goes into um and studies that need to be done uh in order to decide whether or not it makes sense and stuff to put a wind site in a particular area.
SPEAKER_02Aaron Powell And with a lot of these natural um energy sources, part of the problem is there's not always wind. There's not always sunlight. Right. And so hydrogen kind of comes into fill that gap to actually be able to store some of that unused power. Is that the idea?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, it is the idea. And it's it's similar really with regards to teaming up um bulk electric storage systems, um, batteries effectively, along with solar, so that you have a little bit more continuity, that you um have stored power with these with battery systems in order to you know to utilize it, have reliable power available when you need it during the demand, where you don't always know that that's the case with regards to either solar, as you'd mentioned, and with uh and with wind. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Since you've had such a you know wealth of knowledge and and seen kind of nace from uh near the beginning to now, um do you have foresight for the future? I mean, where we're headed. I it seems like coal's kind of coming offline and we're trying to get as much at it as possible. Uh what do you see some of these big changes and and big shifts coming in the future?
SPEAKER_00I think we've known for the last 10 years or so and stuff, coal, solid fuel plants and stuff have been in the decline. Um that maybe, you know, there there may be a little blip where it comes back from just for the need. Um so but I don't see that as um rebounding in any sure any any strong sense just because the economics aren't there. Because because solar and and battery and and wind and and other renewables and hydrogen and stuff are are all becoming more and more you know economical and commercially viable and are even cheaper at times and stuff than uh well at most times than coal is. Yeah. Historically at NACE, again, we the the market the market changes, you know, with like with every company and stuff. Um combined cycleglass um plants, uh followed by you know solid fuel plants, lots of reciprocating engines, and then we started getting the the renewables started taking off and become became less and less um expensive and more more prevalent in the market.
SPEAKER_02With some of these generators, I mean parts are hard to come by right now. Very hard to come by, yeah. And things like solar continues to get cheaper, although it it's a it's not as easy as plug and play with with our the way that uh things are set up. We need that always on. And so um, you know, what do you foresee is the solution? Do we just kind of have to wait until that manufacturing pipeline picks back up and we can start putting more of these uh you know generators into the mix or or where are we at with that?
SPEAKER_00Well, yeah, there's a lot of back orders and stuff for all of the you know, the the heavy duty gas turbine plants, the large um gas turbine uh machines. Um probably in the order of five years and stuff before you're gonna get get any of those. So you've probably seen and stuff with all of the um build out for these large data centers and the power um plants that are put in in order to support them, they're they're turning to what's available in the market.
SPEAKER_02And that is some that may not be as efficient as the most modern.
SPEAKER_00For sure. Not as efficient, definitely not as efficient. Much smaller um turbines, ones that you would you know might have typically purchased to do, you know, maybe you know, little little power plant at a university or to support a large building. So some of these are three, five megawatt you know, machines, you know, very, very small. Ones that we don't actually, NASES doesn't have a lot of experience operating. Not that they're any more complicated or different than the larger ones. In fact, probably simpler. Sure. Um but but we haven't done that because it'd never been economical to have power plants um like that of this scale, right. Utilizing 10, 20, 30, 50, you know, little little microturbines, we'll call them.
SPEAKER_02But now you could say the economics because of AI, because there's so much money there that they just need the energy. Yeah. And that gives opportunity for us and and uh you know been around so long that is there a company that really knows uh even just the different array of technologies, but especially the combined cycle side, is they they need more people, they need more uh more parts and and as much energy produced as possible. So I guess we're filling a that void. Yeah, no, no, for sure we are. You know, with some of these plants it may not require as many people, but safety is still obviously really important. And I wonder how does that factor in at different sites from solar or wind or some of these others. How do we continue to prioritize safety in that way?
SPEAKER_00I think safety has become even more prevalent and more in the light as it should be and stuff, and it is different for each of these different plants. The the safety concerns, like at a solar plant, are are significant. People don't think about it, um, but there is a lot of potential and stuff. Um, yes, it's DC and people are used to, oh well, I can work on my car battery and I don't I'm never gonna get a shock type of thing. But there is a potential there and stuff to to kill people and stuff and working on these systems. Um and so we have to really, really be focused on that. And and it's particularly hard because the staffing is so low at some of these sites compared to the amount of equipment that is being looked after. Um it's fewer eyes on it. Yeah, there's few there's fewer eyes on it. It's it's more difficult to get the you know the the two or three men necessary to safely you know isolate something to and to to verify, you know, that there is no energy um or energy potential left and stuff when you only have you know one person on call. Well, how do you do that? Yeah. And stuff. So it it really it does it does bring a focus to it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. It's more than just cleaning off the solar panels, it's you know, there's the conversion of it and one thing goes wrong, you know, and it you have that in some of these cases I imagine you don't need more than one or two people, and that's uh you know, maybe one person has an off day. There, there's obviously risk there. Yeah, no, there is. So you've been at NACE all these years, and I wonder what has made you stay.
SPEAKER_00I love the company. Um, as I'd mentioned before, the diversity um with new clients, new technologies has made it interesting for me. I've never seen the need to move on. I've also always felt supported and stuff by by management and my peers. Um, so it's while while it's a lot larger now and I used to know everybody in the company and be able to uh you know and know their families and stuff, that's not quite the same now, but it does still have a family feel to me. Yeah, definitely. It feels like home. So I've never felt the need to look elsewhere and move on. And um so I'm quite happy here and I will retire from here.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think the sentiment sentiments like that, you know, with with a lot of people we talk to is just yeah. Um and that's been I've been here almost five years now, and uh that's my feeling is it's kind of hard to leave.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Well, Jim, thanks so much for your time and uh it was fun talking through this stuff, and uh hopefully we can do it again soon.
SPEAKER_00All right, sounds great. Thank you, Jeff.