SPEAKER_03

The steeper path, I'm I choose, leaving comfort, nothing to lose Through shadow trails and rocky ground. My purpose clear, my meaning found. Each step I take brings strength anew, challenges faced, resilience grew, a journey tough, but richly sweet. Where sold in life surlight me. At peaks that had a vision clear.

SPEAKER_04

My greatest goal is becoming near. The steep spray for the steep.

SPEAKER_00

That doesn't fit my model of modern Korea when it comes to child raising. And because it was everybody I know who's Korean, their parents are like, you must be academically focused because the world is so crazy competitive. And really discourages, you know, almost to the point of like, no, you know, you you shouldn't be playing. You should be in here studying. And I love that your mom is more balanced and that she kind of intuitively had that approach. She seems like a really special person from that perspective. Like she she came at it with a very balanced um perspective. Is she from a big city or from the a smaller town or countryside?

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, um, she predominantly lived in Seoul in Korea, but she is one of six children. And so I think uh, you know, yes, uh my grandparents cared about their education and making sure that they went to universities, but I don't know if it was just as hardcore as what you would allude to, which is, you know, studying all day every day. Every grade, you know, matters to the very end. If anything, I I think my mom was so relaxed because I was so um disciplined myself. Uh, I think I somehow ended up wanting to be really good at whatever I do. And so she maybe felt, I don't know, I'm assuming here, but maybe she might have felt like, okay, she already has a lot of pressure on herself anyway. Why would I add to it? Um but you're right. Academically, she never chastised me for anything. Um, I never felt the pressure academically. I've always wanted to excel in it, but she never did. Um, but the only thing that she was very, very adamant about is being consistent in my violin practices. For some shape or reason, I even asked her, you know, a few years before. And I said, Mom, like, did you expect me to be a professional violinist? Because she she was so adamant about my practices, making sure that I'm disciplined, getting those reps in. And she was like, No, actually, I never expected you to be a violinist. And so I think what that tells me is she cared more about the reps that I put in and the consistency and bringing in that work ethic and making sure that that is just embedded into my system so that anything that I do in life, that I can do it with such rigor. Because I think she also realized that, you know, I have a lot of passion. As a person, I do need to work on follow-through at times. And so I think she really noticed that early on in my childhood and just like, well, Jana has a lot of energy. Jana has a lot of passion for things. She'll do it with full gusto. The improvement area that I see in my child is uh she needs to continue this. She needs to continue this passion and not burn out. So I think that was really smart of her.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's a really astute observation from a parent's perspective because yeah, that grit, that learning the muscle of putting in the reps and learning how to stick with something, how to see it through, and how to develop a sense of mastery and muscle memory, that is an incredible skill for success later in life. But um the fact that she was able to see it and to separate it from the aspiration of like you you have to do this because you're gonna become a pro versus you have to do this because it's good for you to learn how to see things through, right? That's really cool. So you started playing the violin at, you know, you said seven.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, I don't know exactly what age, probably six or seven. Uh, I still remember uh, you know, when we were leaving for the United States, uh, I have a photo of me performing in front of my classmates as a goodbye present. And I don't know how normal that is. But I remember doing that. And then, yeah, you know, financially had the means for me to, you know, get private lessons in Korea and making sure that I'm playing with other kids in orchestra formats. I think coming to the United States, uh, definitely the finances were tighter. And so, as, you know, you know, there's public school-free education and music lessons. Um, I don't know if you're aware, but so fourth grade through sixth grade, uh, I still remember um being in those classes in my public school. And, you know, people are like, wow, you're actually at a different level than we are. We're just starting at the age of, I don't know, 10, 11. Um, but yeah, I kind of craved more challenging classes at that time just because I got a head start, and to be fair. Um and we lived in a neighborhood. Um, so I grew up in Orange County, but not in the most affluent part of Orange County. I think a lot of people associate Orange County with, you know, everyone is rich, everyone is doing well. I lived in a smaller town inland called Garden Grove. And yeah, I would say the public school system is not the best. And when it was time to choose junior high, the local neighborhood one that we would be defaulted to, um, not the best rep. I think my mom was trying to understand, okay, how do I provide a really good education for my kids, even though I personally can't take them to private school? And so uh I remember there was like three to four months where she saved up money for me to take private violin lessons so that I can be prepared to go through the audition of, you know, joining Orange County High School of the Arts. Um, it's called OSHA. Uh, still runs to this day, I think, uh, based in Santa Ana. Um, but yeah, it was a very intense couple months in sixth grade. And uh yeah, did the audition. Thankfully, I was able to join the school. And it's been a really fun ride since then. So I attended OSHA from seventh grade until 12th grade.

SPEAKER_00

Was this something that you also enjoyed? Because to play for so long, I imagine you had to. You had you had to find some sort of passion in the violin.

SPEAKER_07

Mm-hmm. I would say it wasn't specifically the violin itself, but I did love being immersed in music. Um I think while I was very shy, I think I was also very sensitive as a child. Maybe I'm sensitive now as well. Just I kind of have that tendency of picking up emotions and others and myself, being more reflective. Um, but it was a way for me to find another world where I could express who I was. Um, I think if you think about the context of a child, you know, in some ways I'm a third culture kid. You know, I've moved around a bit in Korea, Indonesia, came to the US. My family dynamic looks different here. Things were kind of unstable in a lot of ways. Um, and music was a place where I can feel the grounding, you know, feel like there's a familiar sense of a threat that linked me from when I was very little to being an adolescent. That was a thing that really was a continuity in my life. And I think if it wasn't for music, I wouldn't be the person that I am today when it comes to expression, connecting with others, collaborating, teamwork. And so um, yeah, I definitely still have a soft spot for music. I'm surrounded by it all the time. Um, but the playing part I do miss a lot. And I still remember when I was little, I was 12 or 13, I would notice sometimes my family member being super tired, exhausted, maybe a little bit sad. And I would, you know, take the headphones off and would give it to them and say, hey, like let me play you some songs that might relax you, or let me play you some songs that will put you in a better mood. And so, in some ways, later on, I learned that, you know, that could be a form of music therapy. Like you can be a music therapist as a career. But of course, you know, when you're 13 and, you know, this is like early 2000s, that's not really a common thing. And so I kind of did that without even knowing, and knowing that music can be healing. And maybe it was a way for me to also heal the inner parts of myself that kind of lack that stability at times in my life.

SPEAKER_00

That's very cool. So you had a very empathetic, connected relationship with music and people through that as well. It it sharpened your empathy in some ways and allowed you to see things in patterns in people and music as well.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah. Um, even in college, I would uh burn CDs and make specialized Taylor playlists for all of my friends and would gift them. And so I think for me it was a sharing of self, um, but also allowing to allowing myself to see them for where they are and see what really helps them feel better or be inspired.

SPEAKER_00

I miss stuff like that. I miss uh mixtapes and CDs and giving music as gifts because it used to be so um music was scarce, you had to pay per song per album for it, and it was a lot of money, you know, it was like 20 bucks for a CD. And so if you wanted the one song on the CD, you paid 20 bucks to get the one song, and it was so fun to be able to make things for other people, like uh curated collections and mixtapes. And so yeah, I love that memory that you're sharing for that reason because I used to I used to do it too, and um, you know, I'm old enough that you know there was a time when we had, you know, the only way to get certain songs was from the radio, and so you would use a taped, like a cassette tape deck, like a double deck, and record one song off of the radio and try to make a new mixtape out of it. And but yeah, no, that's really cool. Music is, I mean, music's a big part of my life too. Uh, and so I totally feel that connection um to music and and how that plays into your development, into your life, and into who you become. And you you you mentioned you miss playing, so I take it you don't actively play violin, uh, and you know, even professionally, obviously not. But um is it still part of your life? Do you play at all?

SPEAKER_07

You know, I have it sitting in my closet. It's been there for a bit. Um I do get a craving to pick it up, but uh I don't know if this is a comparable analogy, but if you're used to being an athlete performing at a certain level, and for you to realize that if you were to pick it up, you'd be an amateur at the lowest of low levels all over again, and you have to kind of climb that hill. Uh it's pretty daunting. It's a little bit, you know, uh hurtful to your ego too. So I really enjoy going to LA Phil. And when I lived in San Francisco, I would see San Francisco Symphony all the time and their performances. But personally for me, no, but never say never. Maybe I'll go back to it someday.

SPEAKER_00

It yeah, I I get it. I mean, it's about warming the muscles up again and getting the body and the brain connection going. Um I I will say though that muscle memory with music is amazing. And it is you know, I will put my instruments down and not play them for a while and pick them back up and be like, wow, this all came back within a few reps. So I'd encourage you to take it out and play around a little bit and just see how far gone those muscles are because it may surprise you a little bit how how strongly burned in your hard drive they are. But anyway. That's great. So music took you through to high school and brought you into high school. And it sounds like there was never a plan to be a professional musician. So where did your where did your schooling take you? Where did you end up sort of going after the Orange County School of the Arts if you weren't going to be a professional musician? Um, where'd you land in college and what did you think you might want to do when you were there?

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, I still really wanted to be in a profession of helping others and healing others. And for me at that time, it was such a narrow path of understanding professions. Um, who helps other people? Who heals other people? I think for me, that was a doctor. Um, so uh I still remember my school days would look like, you know, starting around 8 a.m., 8:30 a.m. And then our academic classes would end at 2 p.m. And since we're in art school, we would have our academic or arts curriculum from 2 to 5 p.m. So that would be a combination of music theory, orchestra, you know, violin practices. Um, I took conducting lessons, producing classes, which were really cool. And then after 5 p.m. rolls around, I would go to um Children's Hospital of Orange County and be a nurse's assistant. So I volunteered, uh, I would say the last three years of my high school in preparation of wanting to become a pediatrician. So I think that's always been a thing for me all along. Um and yeah, when when it came time to attending universities, uh I predominantly wanted to stay in California. I don't want to leave too far away from my mom and my sister. And fortunately, I was able to get um good scholarship to attend USC. And that's how I ended up there. Funnily enough, a lot of public schools like Berkeley and ECLA, uh, they weren't as generous. And maybe it's because, you know, it's the nature of public school versus private school, but uh feel very lucky and fortunate to have attended USC for my undergraduate.

SPEAKER_00

That's really cool. So it feels like that that thread of um wanting to be a pediatrician for when you were a little girl that that popped back up and it stayed there and it kind of carried you through. Was the plan to go to USC and study medicine then?

SPEAKER_07

Yeah. So when I first attended USC, I came in with a biochem pre-med path. Um, I realized that every semester was already pre-planned for me. There wasn't a lot of wiggle room to take any other classes that I enjoyed, whether that be in the arts, whether that be in other classes. And uh, you know, I don't know if you consider this kind of the universe had a had a different path for me, but I remember some of my um dormates were part of this uh organization called Lacey, Los Angeles Um Community Impact. And they do pro bono consulting for nonprofits and small businesses that wouldn't have business consulting otherwise as something that they can lean into. And so every semester they would have three to four students paired up in a project where they would be doing business plans, marketing plans, uh, things that could be really helpful for a lot of businesses locally in Los Angeles that couldn't, you know, afford those types of services otherwise to boost their business. And so when I joined the group, I realized that there's a lot of different ways for you to impact the world and, you know, to make a mark that was really, you know, good beyond just medicine. And I think that kind of gave me an aha moment of like, oh, there's other options that I could explore that I've never really considered before. I think growing up, business felt a little scary to me. Business felt very um male dominant, business felt a little shady. Um, I was always associated with, well, if you want to do good in business, you have to be a salesperson. And like I like I mentioned, I was a bit shy growing up. And so I was like, there's no way that I could be a saleswoman. And so I think there was a lot of self-limiting beliefs in addition to, oh, the only way that I can help people is to heal and make them feel better in a in a medicinal field.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Yeah, I can see how that can how it can happen. And I I I can relate because I had a similar experience of of realizing when I was a young, fairly young in my life, that healing and helping was something that was important to me. It was something I wanted to do. And then thinking that the only path was, you know, medicine, doctor. That's that's the only way to help. And then to feel quite boxed in by the the options and how you become a doctor and whether you're gonna have the brain that sort of falls into line with the academic path to being a doctor. And so that the world doesn't necessarily help us see that helping comes in different forms. Maybe today more more so. I would kind of argue that there's more exposure, I think, to by young people to mental health, to being aware of things like coaching and development, personal development. Um, that it's it's not just about being sick and healing, but helping people perform and and do better and be better all across many aspects of their lives. But um, I I fully can understand how you could come to that point of view. Um, did that time working with nonprofits did that show you a little bit of a different way to help? That there was another path to that same impulse or that same instinct?

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, I think the biggest difference that I've realized is um impact meant one to many. So when you help an organization, you're helping that organization help other people en masse. And I think, you know, being a doctor, yes, you definitely make an impact one-on-one. But I really saw another look to like, what does it look like to scale out help? Um, and that was kind of of that aha moment. And I would say, frankly, as well, I think the such restrictedness of medicine and the path to medicine um worried me too, frankly. Uh, when I was 18, I was like, wait, like, is it a guarantee that by the time I hit 30 and I'm in residency, would I still really want this the way that I want it? Also, it's really expensive to be in a pre-med track. You know, you'd be in debt for a long time. And and I think I was in a mindset of, well, you know, eventually I do want to help out my mom. Uh, I want to make sure that if anything happens, that I'd be able to provide that financial safety for my family. And uh being quarter million dollars in debt or plus, it didn't feel safe for me. So that was also a personal reason as to why I'm like, well, um, what if there are other ways to help?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Yeah, makes a lot of sense. So, where does that take you? Where did you end up coming out of what did you major in and where did you end up coming out of college then with that revelation?

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, so I majored um, so definitely different. Uh, majored in business. Uh, USC is known for their business school, so I was part of Marshall School of Business. And I was one class short from being a minor in neuroscience. So I still love psychology. I loved learning about the dynamics kind of in our society, what makes us, you know, behave the way that we do. Um, how does that play into business? How does that Play into politics. I think I've always been curious about that. And um yeah, I think another part of me was really curious about technology in general. You know, things were shifting, you know, so fast. Um, and I wanted to see if I wanted to go into the music industry from a business perspective. And this was at a time where artists weren't making a lot of money uh any longer with different business models at hand. Um, this was, I would say this was right after the financial crisis. So it was like 2008, 2009. I graduated in 2012. Um but yeah, I was like, well, what would music look like? What would connecting with other people look like in the next decade? Um, I was, you know, maybe accidentally, but I was really thinking about kind of consumer and how we consume services and software being different, harbor being different. Um, I loved uh, you know, the design around Apple and I was a fan of it myself. And luckily, I was able to get an internship with Apple my junior year of college. And they had a program called Um Finance Development Program. And it's a two-year program postgraduate that you get to rotate in different business units within Apple and learn about their business models, um, learn about, you know, financial forecasting and analysis and business strategy. And it was a really well-rounded program. Um, another perk is that you get to do a rotation internationally in one of their Apple offices around the world. And so I was like, well, this is amazing for you to spend, you know, age 22 to 24 really understanding the ins and out of one of the companies that I really admire and respect. Um, so yeah, luckily I went through the summer internship, ended up getting an offer. And I still remember I had a mentor, a USC mentor. And when I got the offer letter, um, that was around the time when Steve Jobs passed. And I remembered um my mentor looked at me and, you know, he was like, Are you sure you really want to go there? I don't know if they have longevity left in the business anymore since the founder passed. And I was like, Well, I I still feel like I can learn so much. And hopefully, if you build the right business, you know, you have some succession plans and there's ways for this to really embody the ethos of the founder. But maybe even when the founder is gone, you can still cultivate this, you know, this love and the culture and the ethics of someone that, you know, have established it earlier on. And so decided to take it. Um, I don't think my mentor agreed with me, but I have no regrets having that be my first job out of college.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's it's quite a lucky experience to land into a company like Apple right out of school and to do it in a way that allowed you to get exposure to a lot of different parts of the company and how it works as well. Because um there's a lot of ways to enter a big company out of school, and not all of them give you this type of a perspective. Um, what did what did you love about working at Apple, or what did you learn during your time there? I'm not asking for any trade secrets, of course, but it's such a unique business. It's such a unique, uh uniquely run, iconic business that's that does things its own way. But I'm just curious because I know a lot of people who have spent time there and um, you know, everybody takes something different away.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah. I um I think I really value artistry and the care and the attention that Apple puts into everything, even to the way that they design the retail storefronts, to the materials that they use in their supply chain, to um how organized and clean it is, even in the way that you open up your laptop and you get to see the beauty even within. And even when it's not external facing, you care about what's inside. And I think that's the biggest takeaway that I've really learned from Apple, which is um whatever you do, do it with care, do it with intentionality, do it with um focus on details. Um, I think the, you know, I think in Silicon Valley, there's also uh, you know, a celebration of break things, you know, move fast, break things ethos. I think for Apple, it was very much like we're never gonna be the first movers in any of the businesses. But when we come in, it's gonna be well done. And I really uh take that to this day in in whatever I do and the work ethic. I've I've learned so much from all the people that I've worked with at Apple. And I would say to this day, uh, you know, the hardest workers and the employees and the colleagues that I've worked with have been in from Apple. Um, and the attention to detail uh to the point where, you know, I remember helping prepare for earnings calls. And every period in the sentence matters, every grammar, every spelling mistake, every of course you're working with numbers as well, so you want to be accurate in everything. But I think that was pretty pervasive in whatever department you were in. Doesn't matter if you were in finance, doesn't matter if you were in engineering, design. Um yeah, it was it was a very respectful type of culture. And and um I kind of like look for that in in others that I collaborate with, that I work with.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. It's a high bar to get exposed to right away out of school, because I think uh a lot of people end up in the tech world going into an early stage startup where things are a lot more like college, where it's a little bit more fast and loose, and it's young people collaborating, figuring things out on their own for the first time their own way. And Apple is a very intentional, very mature organization, not run by young people. It's run by people over 50 predominantly. And um it's really interesting to s to sort of walk into an example like that where, you know, I I would imagine most finance departments, if you were doing FPNA and then coming into that world and a mature publicly traded company, you're gonna have a lot more rigor than a startup. But Apple does it even at another level of attention to detail. So you you kind of got the the bar set high. Did how long did you stay there?

SPEAKER_07

Not too long. So uh, you know, the program is two years long, and the hope is that you find a department that you love and uh you join it for a longer period of time after the fact. Um, the last project that I worked on was pre-Apple Pay. So uh, you know, it was a rotation for the first time that I got to work on a pre-launch product that didn't exist outside. And um, my department was responsible for thinking about the adoption rate. So, how do you forecast a three-year to a five-year adoption rate of the POS, the retail storefronts that would adopt the right machines to make sure that Apple Pay works? But also on the consumer side, how long would it take for us to make sure that that consumer habit becomes a regular thing that you do at a grocery store, at another retail store, et cetera, et cetera? And so I really enjoyed that. It was um a startup experience that I didn't get to experience in other departments that I've been in. You know, I've been in iTunes department, I've been in iPhone sales, you know, I've been in the education sector within Apple and how to sell through districts and different schools. But this was the first time where we're studying the market. It's a new technology. Um, Apple hasn't really gone into the fintech side of things until then. And this was, you know, 20, 2014. So it was really exciting. People didn't know what was going to happen, but you do you try to predict to the best of your abilities and also think about it from an international perspective. Well, what the adoption look like in AMIA versus in America versus an APAC, and how do you roll this out? And so I think that's when I kind of caught the startup bug. And I was like, well, I could stay at Apple, um, perfecting this skill. But also, I'm kind of in my earlier part of my 20s. Um, I could, you know, it's kind of like golden handcuffs. You can be there forever if you really wanted. Absolutely. Um, so I actually quit without a job. Um, I quit and I was like, well, I think I need to be uncomfortable for a little bit because I do want to improve. I do want to be challenged. And maybe it's a little too early for me to do that when I'm 24.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. That's that's in many ways, doesn't surprise me at all. I think a lot of people might be surprised by why would you walk away from a company with so much uh growth and prestige and possibility? Um, but that zero-to-one bug, again, kind of connecting the red thread back to creativity, that is a creative act of building something new, of uh of solving these puzzles and riddles of how do we make something better for people? And how do we take something that does not exist and make it exist and figure out how it grows? Um, that bug, I get it fully. And uh I think you know, when you're young, especially and you have the time and the priorities, the bandwidth to focus on exploration and and creation versus you know maintaining and optimizing. Um it makes sense that you would want more of that in your life as a creative individual. So what startup did you end up finding your way to, or what what industry?

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, and so I didn't know what industry to specialize in quite yet. And within a few weeks, um I was able to join a small VC fund called Funders Club. And something interesting about this VC firm is that they're a startup in itself, in that they went through a Y Combinator. Um, I think they graduated in 2012. And so it was thinking about how do you build a software platform where you can have a credit investor invest in startups, but kind of at a smaller check size. So, how do you spin up a single-purpose vehicle fund and have, you know, multiple investors come into it and that you're still able to get access to private investments. And so it is a way as an, you know, it was an interesting and smoother transition from FPNA to that world. I think eventually I did want to get to a more creative department and I ended up being in product marketing for a long, much longer time after the fact. But, you know, before then, I was like, well, I don't know what to provide to startups from an FPNA perspective. You know, if you are a startup that is a seed stage, a series A, series B, they don't need a finance person. They need doers. You know, they need to, even before you track, what are you building? And so I think it was a good transition for me to see it as like, okay, there's some skill set that I can transfer over to when I'm thinking about doing due diligence of series seed and series A startups. Like, what does it look like to draft an investment memo? Um so yeah, did that. Um, and that was around the time where I learned more about the ARVR industry. Um, Crypto Web3 was kind of having its first wave of boom. And yeah, got really exposed to kind of nascent technologies at the time. And I still remember going to an art studio, and there is an artist that created an experience on the Oculus TK one. So it was a developer kit, it wasn't a commercialized, you know, um, product that you put on your face, and it was really heavy. So I put it on, the frame rate is super low, and I got a headache after that. But when I put it on and I had that experience, I was like, wow, like this could be in another way in which we can live our lives and experience things in a different way. And for us to feel like we can really be in another, you know, shoes of another. Uh, I think her experience was recreating some of her memories and how she lived in her childhood. And for me to put that on and feel as though I'm in that room as her, it really gave me empathy towards what technology can do to foster this type of connectedness between all of us. And and I think, you know, having been in Silicon Valley for a long time, some people see technologies as a, you know, it's a fun thing to do. Like, what can we create with this type of energy? I think for me, I've always seen technology as a as a purpose vehicle towards how do we rethink and reflect about humanity, how do we think about connection, how do we think about um finding that sense of community or connectedness? And I think for me, it was an enabler more than it's a fun little gimmick that we can use to try new things. And I think that's always been a part of me in the way that I perceive technology to this day.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. You got exposed to the power of technology as a human augmenting force to make humanity uh better in interesting ways to augment our capabilities or our realities, whatever it is. I think that's quite a unique experience to get to be exposed to a lot of ground floor um very early stage bleeding-edged uh technologies. And and I imagine VC is probably one of the more interesting or or more um diverse ways to get exposed to a lot of this very quickly. Did did you like working in VC? Was that a lot of fun? Or was it w tell me about the things that were good and bad about that culture for you?

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, I think the good thing is um it's drinking out of a fire hose. You know, I I've worked in a public company and now we're looking at very early stage founders and what they're hoping to accomplish. And so it went from being very numbers-driven to vision driven. And I found that really interesting. Um, this was also a time where I found that storytelling in any aspect of your work is so pivotal. Um and I really liked working with people who were scrappy, and I would constantly get inspired by entrepreneurs. And I think in some ways, I wanted to be one myself, but you know, being on the other side in the investing side is safer. And so in that way, I was a bit of a coward, but I also was kind of living through that ecosystem. Um, the bad part, I would say, you know, I think it's gotten a lot better now when it comes to gender ratio within the VC industry. Um, but I still remember there were moments where I didn't feel like uh, yeah, there were moments where it gave me pause. So an example could be, you know, we had a founder coming in to pitch for, you know, a seat investment. And I would open the door, and you know, when I would say, hey, like, how's it going? I think they might have perceived me as an executive assistant or whatnot. And so I got them water, I brought them upstairs and they got seated, they were getting comfortable, they were putting on their computer, you know, turning on their laptop to, you know, showcase their pitch deck. And I think they expected me to leave after the fact, after getting them comfortable. And then I actually sat across the table and I said, okay, like what would we like to talk about today? And so I can like see the shock in their faces to realize that they're actually pitching to me that day. Um, so things like that. I think, you know, I don't think it's like that as much anymore, but that was 10 years ago. So there's definitely moments where I'm like, okay, um, I don't look like the normal people in that ecosystem, at least back then. I think there's more of who I look like kind of in that, in that um ecosystem. But at the time, I think it was still, you know, up and coming, I would say.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I get it. Things have started to change and diversify, and I think for the better. Uh, there's a lot more um female founders who have gone on to become investors and have changed the real dynamic around um representation of gender, of race, uh everything in VC, which is great. I think it's good for the world. Um, but I can only imagine I've heard plenty of stories from from friends and colleagues who've been in that situation, and it was it can be tough. It can be tough to be underestimated to feel on the outside. And um yeah, I get it. Did you stay in VC for a long time? Was this a place that you really felt comfortable that you had like this might be the thing for me, or were you still on your journey of winding through the steeper path to figure out where you're gonna go next?

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, um, I love that you speak about alignment in your book, um, Len. And I think eventually I knew in my heart of hearts that I wanted to have my own business. I didn't know what that would look like down the line, but I've always been curious about what that other side could look like. And so um it didn't feel like a place where I could be there long term, but I did learn a lot and I'm grateful for the experience. Um and yeah, I, you know, speaking about being in places where you don't feel like the norm, I caught another bug and I ended up going into ARVR. And that was also a very different experience because I realized at that time it was predominantly a use case of gaming. I think even now it's a predominant use case of gaming. And the gaming industry is very different, you know, when it comes to culture, what's acceptable, what the norms are. And so that was also another place where it opened up my eyes to like, wow, you know, this is an interesting culture in and of its own. Let's try to find out what it's like.

SPEAKER_00

So it was sort of the the out of all the exposure you got inside of uh VC to the various cutting edge technologies, this is one that caught your eye is like this this could be something interesting. I want to go double-click on it and get involved. And that kind of led you into that world to figure it out. Did you do product development? Did you what what aspect of ARVR sort of got you interested?

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, I was really curious about what makes someone pick up their headset and put it on. I think they were still trying to get to product market fit. I mean, even now, to be frank, I think there's a product Yeah, there's a product market fit issue. Um, but at the time I found the power of the technology, I just realized that the use case was so niche. The use case was, hey, you just play games on this thing. And for me, the reason why I was so interested in VR and AR is because I realized that you can connect with other people wherever you are, but in a more intimate and immersive setting. And having an international background of, you know, I've, you know, at that time, by that time, I've studied abroad in France. Um, I've worked in Indonesia for a few months. I've also worked in Japan for a few months. So I've really had this kind of global outlook of looking at friendships and communities that I was in. And um, you know, when you feel like you belong everywhere, but not in a specific place, you see technology and its use case differently. And, you know, I used to constantly use Skype to connect with other people around the world. And this was another use case in which maybe there's a world where we can traverse different digital worlds together, have common experiences like concert going experiences, but in the comforts of our home and not necessarily having to fly across the world just to meet them in person. And so I think that use case was really fascinating to me, which is how do you have social experiences with the people you care about, but also if you want to meet other strangers from around the world? Um, I think diversity is a beautiful thing. I think, you know, the more we're exposed to how other people live in the world, the more we would have appreciation and respect for it and love for it. Um so I think from that point, I was looking at it from uh, okay, what will this do when it comes to social experiences? What will this do when it comes to consumer experiences, um, education as well? You know, if you are differently. Able, um, and maybe you might not be able to climb, you know, I don't know, different places. Maybe you can't, you know, traverse within Machu Picchu area. What does it look like to put on your headset? And for you to still feel as though you're there, you're able to explore and have that type of field trip experiences with your colleagues. If you, you know, if it's financially limiting or if you're physically limited to have that experience as, you know, someone else. And so I think that types of use cases made me really excited, more than just can we have a fighting game? Which was very common then.

SPEAKER_00

I get it. Yeah. I I there's a a definite human application of ARVR that we're still trying to figure out the UI for or the experience or the need for. But I'm with you 100% that there's we live in a globally distributed world in which people now leave where they grew up. And they, you know, they leave where they are from, they leave the country they were born in, their community, their family, their friends for all kinds of reasons. And technology has this incredible power to reconnect us, and VR could definitely bring us closer together from those, you know, large distances that are in our lives these days. So solving that problem is exciting. I would want to work on it too, um, if I were you. Yeah. I want to go back and double-click on the you sort of casually dropped, you know, about alignment and feeling that you wanted to do something of your own. That there was something um there within you that was unfulfilled or a desire that was unmet, even though you've gotten to do all this incredible stuff, had a fantastic career building, but there was something else there. And I want to talk a little bit because I imagine you raised it because it kind of comes after ARVR, or was there another chapter? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd love to hear more about that urge.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah. Um, even when I was little, I would make, you know, pretend pretend play all the time. And so I remember I would just lead a group of like my friends, you know, after school. And I would say, okay, today we're gonna put on a talent show and we're gonna be presenting in front of the talent agency. And so we have to come up with a stance choreography. Or there would be another time where um I would say, okay, well, we are in a bakery business, and like we should figure out like what kind of things that make us like stand out, and we would be making it with sand, you know. So it was just a really like I think I've always had that creative and inventiveness in me. I just didn't know what it was. I didn't, I didn't know how to label it. Um, and even at Apple, I remember, you know, commuting from San Francisco to Cupertino in those, you know, company shuttles. And it would take three hours round trip. And sometimes instead of working, I would get my Excel sheet out and just start listing out all the different things that I would have created if I were to have my own business. So it would range from having a professional services marketplace and what would that look like? It's like the Airbnb of if you were to hire like musicians, what would that look like? To I remember um, I was like, you know what? It's super inefficient in airplanes to have those cups that wouldn't stack well. And so what would you do? Um, how can we redesign collapsible cups? And so I've always just been really curious about okay, well, the world is the way that it is today, but how can we make it better? How can we look at it from a different lens? And that's always been within me. Um, but I also had a lot of self-doubt and self-lining beliefs, you know. Hey, you're still just starting your career. Like, what do you know? Um, maybe it's better to learn from the best of the best. Um, also, you're not financially secure at this time. Maybe you should have that ready to go to feel more safe. There's always excuses as to why I would prolong it. Um, but I've always had the itch, I think.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I I get I I get that combination of desire to build something of your own and the sandwich of those limiting beliefs being something that are in in constant tension with each other. Uh, I've experienced it. A lot of people I've worked with have experienced it. And it's a it's a thing. I'm not gonna deny it. It's a real thing. There are certain sort of baseline needs we have to meet to be able to be ready to go build something on our own. Um, and so it's it's a process of working through that. Um how how did you work through it or how have you been working through it? Maybe you're still on the journey.

SPEAKER_07

I think I am. Um I do think in Maslow's hierarchy of needs, you do need a sense of foundation. And so, in some ways, I found a little bit of that in myself, which I'm grateful for. Um but also I think if you look at my background, I've gone I've gone through so many pivots and tried different things, tried different hats that you kind of after after doing those runs, you're like, okay, I've exhausted excuses as to why I wouldn't do the thing that I should be doing. You know, after a while, you exhaust yourself and you look at yourself in the mirror and you're like, well, like, how many more rounds of reinvention do you have to do to really understand that, you know, there's something that you've been prolonging for a long time that you might want to get started on? Um so I think that to me was kind of a catapulting reason. And also I think I got to a place where I feel like I've seen different workplaces, different colleagues, different leadership to know that at the end of the day, the hardest problems to solve are human problems, people problems, more than anything else, um, even in tech companies. And I think when I saw that, and I had a passion for it and a curiosity for it, and like a deep hunger for understanding what makes us more fulfilled and successful in our own way. I think that's when that's when I was like, well, like there's nothing else that I want to do with my life at this point. I should probably do this full-time.

SPEAKER_00

I get it. What does that look like then in practical terms? How do you how do you navigate that with others?

SPEAKER_07

Sure. So, you know, I fast track. I've been in ARVR space for nine plus years. Um, the most recent kind of ARVR role that I was in was at Snapchat in the AR department. And so we were thinking about Snap AR, um, the software in which you can create those lenses with AR experiences. And Snap is a very interesting company where they do celebrate fostering that people culture. Um, one of the first things they do in the onboarding journey as a new employee is to have a team council. And all the newbies get to have this council experience where they get to know one another kind of in a deeper level. And they have full-time facilitators. They have full-time team council facilitators that are hired to do these things. But also, even after the after the fact, when you're doing like one-year work anniversaries, you have your cross-functional team members come in and do a council with you to celebrate you, things of that sort. And so I got really curious and wanted to go through training myself because I didn't realize that you can do this for a living. And so I ended up getting um certified in team council facilitation at um in like two different kinds of training that I've done. And then um realized that I loved enjoying solving those types of problems of like, what does it look like to solve conflict issues? What does it look like for us to think about collaboration? What does it look like for us to go beyond, you know, kind of the ego and how do we practice active listening with one another? And that kind of like made me dive into coaching in general. And now I um coach full-time.

SPEAKER_00

Super cool. That is, you know, when you first started describing it as a team council, I was trying to imagine what that looks like. Um is it can you share a little bit more about that concept? Because it it sounds like a peer support community and then it has a facilitator. Is that or am I oversimplifying?

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, honestly, I think team councils have been around since the dawn of time. You know, we would back in the day sit around the fireplace and tell tell each other stories and tell each other personal experiences, and that's the way that you practice active listening, but also empathy. You know, what does it look like for you to tell your side of the story and to really listen and to not just respond? And for us, that meant kind of creating this um non-hierarchical framework. And so everyone would kind of sit in a circular place so that it felt more democratic. No one was above or below. Um, everyone kind of had a seat at the table in a way, um, metaphorically and physically. And people would go around and we would have a prompt. So it was kind of an open-ended prompt where maybe it could be like, hey, you know, we're in the season of winter. Uh tell us a story about a time where you've had to think about a moment of reflection and how that changed the trajectory of your next chapter. We would all think and we would go around taking turns telling our stories and reflect on it and also tell it back and say, I heard someone say blank blink blank. And it's it's a great way for us to understand what it would feel like to listen without judgment and to also see and hear each other out. And I know it's a very, it feels very voo-voo and like a very ethereal concept, but when put into practice and when you're in it, you can definitely understand the magic of it better than for us to just talk about it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. No, I I'm sure. Yeah. Is this sponsored by the HR team or uh where what part of the company brought this forward? Because it's it's not the most common practice in most companies.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah. Um I I believe um Evan Spiegel, the founder of Snapchat, went through um, you know, during his schooling, this was part of the repertoire within the school that he attended when he was younger. And he wanted to bring that type of ethos into his company when he started. And so I think it's always been part of their HR department um throughout the stage of scaling the company.

SPEAKER_00

Very cool. So that coming back to alignment sparked something within you, having experienced that and then seeing what unfolded in these situations, and you know, it it drew you towards it. Um that helper instinct kind of came back to the table again.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, I I've always felt like we were tackling interesting problems in the tech industry, but I don't know if we really hear each other well in discussions and really see each other from where we're in our own vantage points. And I think that was an experience where I really felt heard and seen by others. And I was like, wow, this is a very powerful tool that isn't shared in a lot of startups and companies. What would it look like for us to practice that and have that be the norm? Um, and it takes a form of vulnerability, it takes a form of sharing, it takes a form of sensitivity and holding space for others. And I think our society in some ways has lost that magic in our day-to-day, you know, let alone doing that with your colleagues at work. I don't know if we do that normally, you know, day-to-day with our families or our friends in general. You know, if someone asks you, how are you? Your default is, I'm good. How are you? You know, it's a very much touch and go. And I think I wanted to explore the depths of what conversation can unearth and kind of bring to the table for a lot of people to talk through and discuss.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. How did you develop those skills? Did you just do it through practicing and learning? You did you mentioned some certifications, some courses you took?

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, I think it's trial by error. I, you know, I also do think there's some temperament that could play into what makes someone an effective listener. And I think I've told you earlier in our story, but I was quite shy. And I think when you're shy but so curious, you kind of take on a listener role in a lot of different relationships. And so I've always felt like this wallflower that get to observe, that get to listen, that get to understand, that get to really analyze what's going on. And I think that's been a lifetime kind of thing that I've really enjoyed when talking to others, helping others. And it kind of made me naturally just bring that up again, but at the forefront, you know, instead of crunching numbers, now I'm thinking about okay, what am I missing here? What are the things that are between the lines? And um what does it look like to surface that for other people and for us to have some revolutionary thoughts and and and exploring the aha moments together? And I think that was really exciting for me.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So you stayed at SNAP doing this for a while in this capacity, and then it sounds like you eventually went off on your own and built your own facilitation and coaching practice. Is that where you're at today?

SPEAKER_07

Yeah. So, you know, even when I started through team facilitation, now I predominantly do one-on-one. Um, but yes, I um I do executive coaching and career development coaching. Um, I would say my clients kind of span different industries, but I would say, you know, more likely than not in the tech industry, just because that's my background. And then some kind of in healthcare and consulting and uh financial services.

SPEAKER_00

Very cool. What did you bring from your career, uh all of your career collectively, um, that propelled you into coaching uh uh as sort of the next step for you? And and I guess maybe to more articulately put this, um I think coaching is one of these things that is very amorphous in how it's defined. Some people think about it more as mentoring, some people think about it more as uh work therapy, some people think about it more as having a mentor. There's a lot of ways that we approach it. What what was the part of coaching that you brought from your career toward the way you coach?

SPEAKER_07

That's a great question. Um I see coaching as seeing people's super strengths and superpower and doubling down on those more than really trying to find out all and nitpick kind of the areas of improvement and making them into a neutral state. Uh I think there's definitely room for improvement and constantly growing in the areas that are deficient. But for me, what's exciting is really getting to know an individual and their goals and support them and be a thought partner on their journey to really understand what they're known for, what their strengths are. And I think that's kind of the ethos within your philosophy too, Len, which is you know, how do you get to that alignment which calls for what are your strengths? What are you really good at? What are you uniquely suited to do? And I think I have that type of um thinking as well. Um in addition to, I find coaching so empowering in that you're not seeing the clients and you're you're not saying, oh, I have a solution for you. It is with the thought that there's an answer within you and you already possess it. You're fully capable of knowing what that is. There might be some things that get in the way. There's some obstacles, there's some things that make it muddy. Why don't we, you know, demystify, you know, unmuddy that place so that you can you can see things a little clearer? And what does that look like to hold space in that messy journey for you to get to that step? And I think I find that really empowering, not only for the individual, but also for me, because I'm constantly reminded that we all possess that capability within us. And it just takes a bit of practice and support to get us there. And that's a wonderful um concept to know that you're able to do that yourself. But it's through collaboration that we get to really expand to our fullest. And um, yeah, I find that beautiful.

SPEAKER_00

That is that's a really powerful way of looking at what people do as coaches. And uh the fact that you're able to hold that so uh forward in the way your philosophy and your approach works, I think can only benefit others in the world. Uh everybody needs more and more of this sort of perspective in their life, as far as I'm concerned. But I'm a little bit biased being a fellow coach. Um yeah. So now that you're here, you know, the journey that you've been on, if you were to look back and see how the dots connect in the rear view, because often they are a lot clearer in the rear view. What do you what conclusions would you have drawn about your own journey of figuring out your path? And I know where you're still on it, I'm still on it, we're all still on it. So there's no answer to when the path is over. Um, but when you look back and you you see the dots connecting or the major forks in the road, one of the things we end up doing as coaches is observing others and stepping back and seeing where patterns and uh and sort of things intersect and connect and helping others see that. Have you ever done that exercise for yourself? If you were to look back at your own path, where it's gone, how it connected in interesting and unique ways, and how it might continue to evolve going forward. What do you see?

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, I see, I see uh, you know, a younger version of me that has gone through a lot of changes, uh, maybe not of my own accord, right? You know, I've had to move different countries, I've had to be in different spaces that didn't make me feel like I was the norm or like kind of that mainstream. Um, and having that outsider's point of view allowed me to create deeper empathy and for me to double check what norm is to begin with and whether or not we can whether or not we can kind of mold into better versions of what we could be as humans, as you know, you know, organizations and and such kind of bodies of of you know companies. And yeah, I think looking back, it feels clearer to me, just based on what I've been sharing with you, Len, but I do think I had to go through the trials and tribulations to get here. Um to to fortify that. I think sometimes it takes more than just, okay, I'm gonna dust myself and try this out. Sometimes it takes, you know, blood, sweat, and tears to know that, like, wow, like that was not in alignment with who I was. Now I know what not to seek. Let me try this. Okay, that's not it either. And I think the biggest miss that I see with people who can't get to faster alignment is giving themselves the grace to be experimental and to not be afraid of the unknown. And thankfully for me, I had to be flexible by default, even when I was, you know, younger. And I think that really helped me understand that not nothing is permanent. There's a sense of impermanence that I constantly feel. Um, and I just embrace it in a lot of ways. And I think that allows me to just know that, you know, there are things that'll work out and there are things that I won't. And there's a better understanding of things that I can control and the things that I can't control. And the more the less I focused on the external validation, the external cues, the things that I couldn't control, and really thought about what I can do at this moment in time. And that's the only thing that I can control. The more liberated I felt, and the more I was able to express myself better. And I would hope to kind of, I don't know, I would hope that, you know, that becomes more of a norm in other people's lives too, to give themselves a chance to make mistakes, but also learn from them. And it'll get you closer to where you need to be.

SPEAKER_00

What a gift. What a gift. Yeah. I think that impermanence uh realization that you experience so young in your life as stressful and awful as that can be when we're young. It trained a muscle in you, the way your mom trained you to practice the violin, that we are not in control of everything, that we often choose the clearer path to lesser goals in trying to figure out how to control things, in trying to create a sense of stability through control and controlling outcomes and actions or through actions, and learning to just let go, to be okay with knowing that the only path is change. And it's uh the learning is in the experimenting, the learning is in the forward failure, the learning is in the risk taking. And there is no formula for where we end up on the other side of this path, uh, where we are happiest and healthiest and living our best lives. That is why I call it the steeper path to greater goals, because it's hard and it's it's unpredictable and awful. And it feels like you've walked it and continue to walk it.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah. When it starts getting too comfortable, that's when I actually question it.

SPEAKER_00

Yep. And that's when we all should.

SPEAKER_07

Like, hmm. Uh what's the next surprise that I'm looking for?

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, I ask myself that all the time. Are you um where do you think the next stage of the path goes for you, given where you're at right now? Is coaching something you think is is another step on the way? Is it something you think you'll lean into forever or probably not?

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, hard to say. Um I but I do think this is the medium in which I can really help others, and I am so grateful for it. And so I definitely see this as if I'm able to do this until I'm in my 80s, like I would be really grateful. Um, but I also know that I'm a multi-passionate being, and there's different ways that I can support others, but also express myself. And so I don't know what that really entails, but I'm excited to explore that side too.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. I'm a big believer that once we attain a reasonable sense of self-knowledge and we're able to see our true nature, our gifts, our strengths, our abilities, our temperament, and to accept it, to be able to look at ourselves and go, okay, this is who I am. I I've tried to repackage myself and shape it and influence it in different ways. And I always come back to this place that looks a lot more like this. And once we're able to see that, that is the beginning of this form of self-knowledge that it doesn't have to leave us. So we can change the title of our job. We can repackage ourselves as whatever. But that nature of being, in your case, creative, helpful, compassionate, empathetic, thoughtful, listening, uh, caring, all these things that have sort of made you great at what you're doing today, they're a vocation. They're a part of you. They're a way of being in the world. They're not a job title. And I think, you know, like you were saying, you could repackage it a million different ways, but you'll probably always be Janet Lee, which is the person you've become today, right? The the the job title is irrelevant, but the person comes with it no matter what the job title is.

SPEAKER_07

Sure. Yeah, I definitely see that. Um yeah. Does that resonate for you too, Len?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, yeah, 100%. Um it's you know, once you accept and learn to realize like this is the my way of being in the world, um, and this is what I come with as a package, it's just sort of like, okay, I can reapply this, I can do this to it no matter where I show up. And, you know, just like you, I don't know what the future may hold in terms of permutations of what my job title is or how my business looks or whatever. But I know the same core set of skills, attributes, and abilities um will power me forward. And I lean into those, right? I'm no longer afraid of them. Um and I think that's where our greatest, you know, success starts to kick in is when we're just able to lean into our strengths this way.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And be uh be excited about it.

SPEAKER_07

100%. I think that reminds me, I think some part of me have always had this feeling of, let me prove you wrong.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_07

I love challenges, right? So I did things to prove people wrong that I could do these things. And now I'm in the right, I'm in a different mindset of let me show you who I am.

SPEAKER_01

Yes. Well, that's okay.

SPEAKER_07

And I think that was such a fundamental difference of let me prove you wrong, to let me show you who I am. And and being okay being seen. And I think that was a fundamental shift that allowed me to be the person that I am today and to do the work that I love doing.

SPEAKER_00

I love that. Yeah. That's that's when I think that's when it all starts to open up before you. Um, is when you're able to be okay being seen and to move away from the things you could do to the things you should do. And this is a big distinction for me because I've like yourself had a career that has gone in a lot of different places using a lot of different skills. And most of the time I was just trying to prove it to myself or others that I could do it. And I could do it, and I did it for a while, but then the inertia started to build and it started to be like carrying a weight, and it wasn't something that I loved, but I sort of ticked the box and said, Okay, I now proved I could do this. Look at me. And then you're like, oh shit, now I have to keep doing it because I proved I could, but I kind of went off the treadmill now. You know, I'm I'm exhausted. Can we stop running so hard? You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_07

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So that distinction of should versus could is super, super powerful. Um yeah. Now that you're here and you know that there's the things you could do and there's the things you should do, you're gonna start leaning more and more into those shoulds. And I think that's when you step into your power.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, and also knowing that the timing is not within your control. I think that was also a big lesson for me. You know, if you think you'll get to your place in a year, well, the universe might have other plans. Maybe it takes three years, maybe it takes 10 years, but I think you have to just um trust the process how however may cliche that may sound. Um Yeah, I think we try to predict so many things in our lives and not forget that sometimes there's pleasant surprises. And that coming from me, that is pretty um a big deal because I love prediction. I love like knowing what's to come. I don't like surprises in my life, but I think that is something that I'm learning to celebrate as well.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. I I mean, human beings in general, we don't like feeling out of control. We don't like on we don't like change, right? Change is bad for survival, right? All living beings need to survive, and so the more predictable everything can be, the more it feels like we have safety. But then there's this constant duality of safety versus stagnation. And when we become safe, then we also become stagnant sometimes. And we become stagnant, we stop growing, and then everything starts to atrophy back the other way. And so it's this constant balance of of duality, of of you know, um taking action and letting go of holding something as an outcome that you want to see, but realizing you can't actually control when that outcome comes about. And being comfortable with that, you know, just like I'm doing this podcast with you right now. Is is is there a grand business plan for how this is gonna benefit me one day? No. It's just doing it because I love talking to people with interesting stories. Will it pay off? Don't know. Will it be interesting to somebody? I hope so. I hope it helps somebody. I hope somebody listens to this conversation and sees themselves in you and goes, yeah, okay, I learned something, I can keep going. Um but it's if we don't do these things, then nothing happens. There is no chance of a different outcome.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah. And I think I I really do believe, Len, that when you do things with intention and care for others, there's no way you lose. In the long run, there's no way that you can lose in any shape or form because you're doing with the love and the care of others. And it's a very while it may look like a self-fish thing, it's a very selfless thing at the end of the day. And yes, you're creating your own brand, you're creating your podcast, but it is to serve others and to inspire others. And I think there's there's no losing in that.

SPEAKER_00

No. Yeah. I mean, for me, this is purely an act of um wanting to give people examples to look to of other paths and other people, because we only celebrate in the in the mass media and in the in the culture in general the extreme example outliers, right? The millionaires, the billionaires, the people who won the game, the people who, you know, or the star everything, the star athlete, the star player, the star whatever, the star business person. It's always the extremes. And most of us are not able to live in that world. We don't have that possibility because it's it's just such a small number of people who are the winner. But that doesn't mean life isn't worth living, or careers aren't worth building, or passions aren't worth following. And so the more stories that we can present of lives well lived, done a different way, I think it gives people a chance to actually feel like that could be me. Like it's okay not to be the winner. It's okay to be great at who I am and what I what I care about personally. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07

And and tailoring what winning means to you, I mean, that is empowerment.

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_07

How do you go from a standard winning, whatever that is? I don't even know, actually, frankly, what that is.

SPEAKER_00

Uh yeah. It it's it's I'm more convinced than ever that it's very unique to ourselves. And that when we look to other people for that definition, because I can't tell you, maybe you have the same stories, but I know a lot of people who are worth a lot of money, who are very unhappy and have won. And they kind of come back to me at some point and go, okay, I got what I wanted. Why doesn't it feel good? And it's like, have you ever thought whether that thing mattered to you or not? Or did it just matter to everybody else? Right? Did it actually matter to you to win on these terms? Or did it matter to everybody else? And that's usually where the root of the sadness lies. Is that no, it didn't. It was an external definition that was given to them. Um, and they achieved, achieved, achieved, and then still didn't feel a sense of accomplishment. And it's it's just very personal. It wasn't to their definition.

SPEAKER_07

Sure.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Um sounds like a high-class problem, and it is, but it's also still a very real problem. Yeah. Thank you so much for taking the time to share your story with me and for helping others see that there is another path. Um that, you know, no matter where you start off, no matter where you come from, no matter what your background is, no matter what obstacles you've been through, um paying attention to the signs along the way of who you are and listening to those voices and looking for those cues of those intersections can lead you to some amazing places. And I'm more confident than ever that you're just beginning to unfold in that journey. So thank you for sharing that story with me.

SPEAKER_07

Of course. Thank you so much for having me, Len. And yeah, it was really fun to go down the memory lane with you.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. No, I think there's wisdom in memories. One last question for you. Sure. What have you changed your mind about when it comes to life and success from when you were younger, when you started on this journey in your 20s?

SPEAKER_07

Ooh. Great question. Um I think I've confused excitement with peace, and vice versa. I think I was very much um, I think my I wanted my life to be always exciting, which meant constant achievements, constant accolades. Um, the highs have to be high. It has to be fireworks. Um, but I think the older I get, the more I realize that alignment equals peace, and peace comes with profound knowledge that those are they come and go. I think excitement comes and goes in your life, but the stability and the peacefulness that you have, the inner peace that you get to hold is the greatest achievement of them all because that means you've gone through different iterations and you've come to peace to know who you are, your place in the world, and for you to know how to, I guess, give back in your unique way. And I think that's the most, you know, I think that's the most blessed feeling that you can get as a as a person.

SPEAKER_00

I love that. Thank you. Thanks again. Appreciate you telling your story today and sharing that little bit of wisdom with us.

SPEAKER_07

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03

Each step I take brings strength anew. Challenges faced, resilience grow a journey to which these wears all the time.