Why AI will never make true art

Every story you love has a human fingerprint on it. Someone felt something they needed to share, and they made it real. A machine can copy the shape of that, but no one is inside it.

In this episode of Catholic Futurist, Benjamin Crockett sits down with actor, producer, and Novo Inspire Studios co-founder Lorenzo Henrie, who plays the apostle Jude Thaddeus in Mel Gibson's The Resurrection of the Christ, and Dave Plisky, Director of Marketing & Digital and Director of Product & Innovation at DeSales Media. They talk about what makes a story human, what AI can and can't do in film, and why that difference matters for Catholic storytellers.

Timestamps:

• 0:00 Intro: AI lacks a soul
• 2:27 AI in film today
• 5:18 Corporate greed & AI
• 8:27 Replacing human artists
• 12:47 The social media trap
• 17:03 Return to simple living
• 22:23 A Christian tech manifesto

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

been like the there's a the creative act involves expression and expression comes from experience it comes from you know our soul desiring to to connect with others ai doesn't have any of that doesn't have a soul doesn't have a desire to connect it's it's and so um and so when you know with if we if we leave it up to if we if we start to replace humanity with with machine uh in this in this new way I I think that it can really open up a a series of problems so we so you know um Antiqua Ed Nova is really good about the about putting it in its place uh and and keeping it there I think that that's that's the framework I I think you have to approach it with Lorenzo Dave thank you so much for being with us today on this uh first day of the Builders AI forum um to talk about how um AI is changing Catholic storytelling.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

Um maybe Dave if I could start with you.

SPEAKER_02 0:59

Uh everyone has you know their own reasons for telling stories uh especially to Catholic audiences and all that kind of stuff. But uh we kind of arrived around three you know important um really the transcendentals which are truth, beauty and goodness. You know, we want to tell the truth about the evangelization of the gospel. We want to make sure it's accurate, it's it's the right thing, right? We want to make sure that it's beautiful, that it's aesthetically pleasing, it's actually you know meeting people's standards when it comes to what you know what we expect from whatever media it might be. And then you know uh that it's that it's that there's something that's happening that's that's positive and developmental for the person who's actually encountering this whatever the story is, right? That that we're that we're being good stewards of our audience actually in a way. You know the the classic example there is of social media, right? Where we're just you know it's like it's been proven now that this is a a fairly unhealthy thing for kids and even for adults. And I I struggle with this because I do social media professionally and I use it a little bit uh personally and you know and there's a quite there's a tension there between like you know is this something which is it is it better to participate in this thing that's not necessarily great so that there is a faith component available for people or is it better to just remove ourselves entirely and and hope people kind of follows follow suit it's it's a it's difficult. But anyway, these are some of the things that we were grappling with today.

SPEAKER_00 2:22

Just a reality check for for our audience um Lorenzo when when you look at AI today like what can it actually do practically in film today?

SPEAKER_01 2:31

Yeah I mean we're we're still in this time where AI is it it's advancing like crazy like there's a new update and there's been some new drops recently with with um Sora and whatnot. But um you know for us I think that the main thing that we're seeing in AI is its advantages in VFX. So like if there's a big you know like right now we're in front of a green screen um there's things you can do with AI that make it a lot more cost efficient. There's also I've had friends that have a full English movie that have dubbed the voices in different languages to make more accessible which is pretty crazy because you could literally take my voice and then change it to like Mandarin or Italian or French and the lips change too it's yeah yeah no it's nuts. It's absolutely nuts. So like things like that, you know, I think the uh old old school filmmaker and me it's it's like you know I still really appreciate like we do animation and I I really love handron uh 2D animation but we are seeing with AI a lot of efficiencies with you know development work where we could you know get some some comps that we hey we want to create a show like this and then we'll take it to a storeboard artist or an animation um artist and give him the look and fill with the tone that we've generated from from AI. So we you know our company is utilizing a bit of AI. We're not geniuses um but we're trying to learn and see what others are doing and um how to how to find the balance if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 4:02

No no absolutely and when you I mean there's there's people talking about like script generation um trans you know you mentioned translating editing animation and I've I've spoken to a few friends um in Los Angeles who you know they they say that it's hard for them you know at the time the the industry's definitely going through a a switch. Do you um do you see something like like a like a full-on AI film studio?

SPEAKER_01 4:28

Yeah we were talking about this a little bit at the at the forum in my experience on what we're doing I I see that more on the in the in the meantime I see that living more on short form platforms like YouTube, Instagram, Facebook. Um as far as um you know bigger budget projects for like studios and streamers um I don't see it moving that direction anytime soon um but I I think that'll be an asset for there's a lot of uh there's in it's in the trades like if you look in deadline today microdramas are sort of popping up um and I think there will be some investment made into the microdramas and that AI can AI studios can develop things for that particular uh distribution platform.

SPEAKER_00 5:15

And um how do you guys see you know kind of I guess more the traditional secular media using AI in in you know in its aggressive modes and also just experimenting it. And how do you see that different differing with the Catholic or Christian audiences in Christian entertainment and film?

SPEAKER_02 5:30

I mean AI AI usage is getting more and more prolific with everything, right? I think I heard a stat today that uh 60% of commercials are are or of of the biggest companies are now being uh using in Canada in Canada are are now using AI to create the commercials and that when studying it that uh I think that there has been zero percent less intent to buy based on uh what based on the ones based on you know those those uh commercials using AI to be generated. And so and so it's it's actually like not even the who if if the company is just motivated by you know the bottom line, right? If it's just a greed-based revenue model, at least calling it what it is, right? Then then what then how could you not right? You'd be you'd be yeah if if you're if you answer to your shareholders and that's all they care about, then you would be you'd be irresponsible not to do that. Right. So that and so how does that differ from you know the Catholic world? It really depends on the on the creator, right? There's no, you know, thankfully I think it's a good thing actually that that we have agency right like this. It's not like the Pope says something and now everyone you know falls in line exactly with however we approach you know this is we're talking about art right or at least we're talking about create creativity and uh and so it really depends on the on the person. I think I think responsible AI creators uh or responsible AI users, let's say are are thinking deeply about what it what what is lost both at both from the not just from the product standpoint of what's created but from the process standpoint of of what the what the artist is maybe not going through as they as they type in a a query or or or a prompt rather than actually kind of grapple with you know the the crucible of a making art.

SPEAKER_00 7:13

Where where do you feel that that the AI could be you know actually enhance the creative aspect of this versus being kind of you you you you offload that responsibility.

SPEAKER_02 7:24

It's almost a crutch you kind of I the my my mind first goes to um variety of experience. So you know let's say in the ideation stage of a project you are just talking through you know you're brainstorming what what are we what do we want to do for this particular scene or this particular project or whatever it might be. And you're getting you're getting the input from the people that you directly work with and that's a beautiful thing that's that's person to person and you know it's as it's as unmediated as as work can get you know between people. But you only have available to you on your on your little team whoever happens to be there. Right. And it's unlikely that you have a Finnish person and it's unlikely that you also have a you know a sister you know like what you you just may want a lot more perspectives. And so I so I think that's one virtuous thing about AI is to be able to in the brainstorming process to be able to pull perspectives that you're just not going to have access to otherwise.

SPEAKER_01 8:17

Yeah research data like you could research things a lot better um depending on which AI system you're using. But um I think there's also the the moral aspect of um you know looking at the encyclicals like rarebarum and and figuring out the Catholic approach to treat AI, you know, like with an artist and enhancing it. Cause you know I I mentioned this at the at the forum today you could use AI to storyboard out stuff or you know get some concept art. But at the same time you could I like I have friends that are Catholic storyboard artists or Christians, whatever denomination it is, um, and they have children and they have a a wife and you know I feel called to you know lean towards that direction of of you know if I if I need a quick fix I could easily you know go on AI. But if it's something you know where I I can spend more time with the development or the storyboards, you know, I I I would love to invest in other people.

SPEAKER_00 9:14

Absolutely yeah you know how do how do we go about you know kind of seizing this moment of transformation um which feels unique and go about making that that ecosystem of of Catholic you know Catholic studios, Catholic distributors like I mean one of the things that we have to keep in mind is just relegating tools as tools and keeping them as tools, right?

SPEAKER_02 9:34

And and you know even the term tool is a little bit crude. AI is so sophisticated right and we're we're way beyond um you know Guardini's definition of what a tool is where this is this is certainly a machine or beyond maybe um but um but I think that's important because it it shouldn't be it shouldn't it it can augment but it shouldn't replace what what a human should be doing, right? And and that's going back to what you said earlier Ben like the there's a the creative act involves expression. And expression comes from experience. It comes from you know our soul desiring to to connect with others. AI doesn't have any of that. Doesn't have a soul doesn't have a desire to connect it's it's and so um and so when you know with if we if we leave it up to if we if we start to replace humanity with with machine uh in this in this new way I I think that it can really open up a a series of problems. So we so you know um Antiqua Ed Nova is really good about the about putting it in its place uh and and keeping it there I think that's that's the framework I I think you have to approach it with yeah no I I I I love that and if I if I may ask and and point to the builders ai forum what what what are you guys most excited about?

SPEAKER_01 10:54

Yeah no I think it's just encouraging to see other people um wanting to come together to throw out ideas and I think disagreement is good. So I think it's I think it's good to uh that all of us are are are you know having healthy debates um so it's a it's very encouraging for me to um see other people you know on on there's people here that are entrepreneurs investing in AI there's filmmakers there's journalists so it's it's really encouraging to see all sorts of people come here to talk about how the church can be at the forefront and guide I I really think um there's a great encyclical um with the uh by Pope Ias the 11th I believe um Vigilante Curia which talks about cinema and media and journalists and it sort of gave them the guidelines and um I think there would be a nice uh if there could be a nice encyclical like that where it gave them the guidelines um to how to implement AI and use it for the good.

SPEAKER_02 11:56

So yeah it's cra it's crazy times we're living it um but you know people are coming from all different places and you're right there's a lot of healthy discussion and and debate um you know one voice was was like hey the only thing we have to fear I mean not to quote FDR but to basically the the the fear of using it. You know this is someone who is really um uh you know bullish on AI but when it comes down to it you can get them into place you that person you know you can get him into places where he'll say actually this is this is really uh worrisome in in areas because of because of the potential for for you know heresy at the extreme but just just just wrong you know just just like any tool. But like what is real? Yeah what is real yeah like we're we're yeah we're heading into an area where you know Blade Runner doesn't seem that sci-fi anymore right deep fakes oh my gosh deep fakes are bad one thing that I've I I I kind of signposted this earlier like one of the things I've been struggling with is just this idea of like like what is the value of of people scrolling on social media you know like you're really hitting hard on that tonight you know I guess you got some backlash I you know and rightly so because like I I can see both ways. I mean look I currently do this professionally like I I am part of what might be a problem and that's probably that's trying that's what I'm trying to grapple with is like is it better you know to to play the game so because here's here here it's not it's not as innocuous as it seems right like you yes people can post and people can look on let's say Facebook right let's say you're just going to your Facebook your Instagram or whatever your flavor is yeah uh you it seems innocuous enough and okay maybe you're using a little more data uh in these offs offset uh on the in these um offshore data centers that you aren't even thinking about so there's an environmental toll that you're not thinking about and there's whatever there's there's that but when you really play the game uh yeah as a brand and you're trying to reach your audience what when we post I'm not looking for people to just keep scrolling like like my my goal is not is not Facebook's goal right I I don't I I'm not here monetizing your eyeballs as you know as when we post as a diocese of Brooklyn or whoever whoever we're working with as into sales media I'm posting because I'm trying to get people to take a take a step in their in their journey somehow, right? Their spiritual journey. And so if if if that's the larger point, then I'm all almost always trying to link off it's not just it's not just watch this and move on. When you when you when you post an exterior link these walled garden companies make it almost impossible for your own audience who's signed up to watch your stuff to even see it. Right the the algorithm takes it from like 4% chance to like 1% chance just by including a link. Okay. And why do they do that? Because they know they're gonna lose the eyeballs if they actually if if you succeed at the this call to action. And so what can I do? I can take out an ad and pay them up front so that I'm basically like paying them to allow me to to remove this person from your walled garden. It's like so you lose either way. And and and why am I trying to help you know Meta get bigger like that doesn't that doesn't advance the church's cause and I and I don't even know if if what I you know it's it's just so it's fraught.

SPEAKER_00 15:04

But it but it seems that we would hit kind of an existential cliff that if the church isn't there on this pastoral level and if we're not there as Catholic storytellers really pointing to that that we could be in really you know serious problems.

SPEAKER_02 15:15

You know the the the world kind of came to this to this inflection point at uh it's obviously Pope Pope Leo the 14th choosing that name uh was all about you know the the the industrial revolution and he what he sees as the next revolution right and um the the tr the world was at this inflection point at the end of that industrial revolution right like around I don't know let's say 1920s ish like maybe a little before and the world needed to decide like okay we have all this time back from what the machines are now doing that the mis that the people used to do. And we can either uh lean into that and say all right let's give people like a break. Let's let's use this time for recreation and like develop the person or let's let's lean into greed and just make people work just as much as they always have if not more so that we can raise those GDPs and all those you know those those sign those the signals that we use for for wealth, which is really greed, right? And of course the world chose that even though the church was trying to lead us uh the other way. And so yeah so like in in some ways I do think that um the the uh the idea of unearned time off sort of thing like there is dignity in work, right? Absolutely. Uh and so people do need that. At the same time, I don't even know if we're gonna be given that choice because I think the world is going to is going to continue to pivot toward greed. And I think that like yeah this is just going to be another way to be even more efficient and and spend you know and like make even more and and spend even more and and yeah it's just I think I think it will be I mean just look at who's running the largest models right it these are these are you know anthropic seems to be a little more trustworthy but it's not it it's still coming from a place where all right we raised 70 million and we're gonna have to pay it back.

SPEAKER_01 16:57

You know like that's I think that's where you need um to really start thinking about your your and my brother and I have been speaking about this a lot our family rule of life um and family legacy because you there's gonna come a point where like what you said is everything's gonna be automated. But if you're what you're building in your family and what you're building in your business can um sort of combat those temptations of leisure and just automate everything um it starts with the family and the family is the building blocks of society. So I think if you build branch out from that network of like other good entrepreneurs and other good families, um you can start creating your own ecosystems. You know and that starts at a local level right on you know principle subsidiarity and um I I think that's what is there I think there's going to be like a the pendulum is going to go the other way. I think it's gonna go this way with AI and technology and everything, but I think there's going to be like a renaissance of people wanting to get back to the land, people wanting to learn the ancient crafts and so as much as we could utilize AI and its advancements, which you know there is there's some good there, I think there's also going to be a balancing act of people wanting to have a simplistic way of life and also build family legacy and pass down these things to your children and talents to your children. At least that's what we're trying to build and in our in our family and our company and we're trying to like include our children at at the dinner table and talk about future and what we're trying to build as a family. And so those are the little things we're working on to combat the craziness of of of life and technology.

SPEAKER_00 18:41

And I wonder A, when you guys when uh Dave when you know when you're working in social media and then Lorenzo of course in film when you guys are crafting your stories, when you're crafting your messages are you guys changing it a little bit when you know that that person A might just spend 30 seconds on it and it will be doing it alone versus that thing of cool we have that you know summer blockbuster movie we're gonna we're gonna have that opening weekend everyone the grandparents to the the the six year old is everyone's coming versus now it's it seems very micro you know okay this is the audience the 30 seconds cool we got these many impressions it seems a different sport.

SPEAKER_02 19:15

You want to go first yeah sure I mean um you know the I I would say the answer is yes and no um you know there we are trying to play the algorithms game on social media specifically and and there's there's ways to do that that we know we not only is it got to you know has that has to be less than 30 seconds on this particular platform but also it's got to be square and you know whatever you know there's there's all these kinds of things. But we're trying not to always do that right we there's a we have a podcast we recently launched called Religion to Reality shameless plug uh that where we where we let ourselves go, right? We're not constrained by a I a time limit and some of the episodes are almost an hour. Right. And where where and and I think there's a place for that right as long as we recognize like who our audience is. And so yeah so I think it's yes and I think it's both.

SPEAKER_01 20:02

Yeah for us I mean we're for us it's either you know are we going straight to the streaming platforms um or is this something that is worthy of theatrical audience or theatrical uh film so it's yeah it's both and um obviously as a as a you know born in the 90s um the best experience is going to the films oh my gosh yeah the theaters and um so that's always the that's always big family popcorn yeah yeah it's like can we get the movie and there's such a beautiful experience you know in in the in the theaters so our preference is yes we want to go theatrical but it's you know it's risky these days and and you just have to have a very smart business approach to if we go theatrical what do we need to do to break even or you know make X, Y, and Z. And then you know there's that there's more opportunities on downstreaming rights where you have the first pay one windows where you you know you can start making more revenues and the second re-upping of the licensing etc so um it just it really depends on what your focus is and what um your goal with that individual asset is Lorenzo if I may I mean this might be impossible but like if you look at the film industry now and you look you know let's say I mean it it it's hard but like in 10 years I mean what what do you what do you hope it'll look like in 10 years yeah I mean oh that's a tough question. Uh you know in the in the next 10 years I I hope there is more platforms distribution platforms. Um you know there's there's obviously you have you know the big Warner Brothers, Lionsgate everyone in in and you have companies like Angel Studios um but I think there needs to be more Angel Studios. I think there needs to be more uh better access for content creators to have distribution. Um so I think in the next 10 years if there's uh more distribution platforms um but also um young people learning story learning filmmaking and that's one of our goals is to you know have interns and shepherd people where we can build not just filmmakers because there are great film schools um but also how to be an executive how to pitch something how to raise money um I think we need young executives to build them up into higher positions. So the next 10 years our goal is to you know train the next generation but to also have content for multiple different different distribution platforms.

SPEAKER_00 22:20

Beautiful what are your what are your final hopes I guess for this for this conference and what do you hope you know people then take out of it and go out into the into the wider world with with this energy.

SPEAKER_02 22:29

Yeah um I mean next tomorrow we're gonna be covering kind of what we think the guardrails need to be inside kind of the the the Christian storytelling and media community uh what what does that look like like what how can we avoid the risks basically basically with AI because we want to be able to use this tool responsibly but what does that look like without knowing really what the future of this is right you know if you haven't read I I've said this today earlier say it again if you haven't if you're a parent and you haven't read Jonathan Haidt's The Anxious Generation, you need to because it basically proves why we shouldn't have adopted social media before we understood really what what was what was going to happen because of it. And I'm worried about AI in that same way. So these guardrails are super important. And then and then after that, you know what are the next steps? Like what do we actually hope can come next and one of the ideas that's been thrown out there is some kind of manifesto that allows us to kind of put our put you know put our um point of view out there on on what we think cat good Christian storytelling consists of aims to do and how does it do that.

SPEAKER_01 23:30

Yeah I I completely agree some some guardrails and also um I would just say executing uh having prudence with everything that you're doing um so that way I mean are your your your eternal salvation comes first. So like you know looking at AI through the lens of is this good for my soul? Will it help me get to heaven? Will it you know and then sort of branching out that toward towards business, towards family life. So just really I hope everyone has you know caution because it's it's scary. Um so for me that's what I'm hoping comes out of this forum is like you know the the extreme prudence on how to apply this to your life and to your business.

SPEAKER_00 24:14

Lorenzo, Dave, this has been wonderful. Thank you so much for the work that you're doing. It's very inspiring.

SPEAKER_01 24:19

Thanks for having us for having us