The Apex Toastmasters Podcast
A podcast about Toastmasters, public speaking, and what makes a successful club hosted by George J. Caspar, DTM.
The Apex Toastmasters Podcast
E5: Janesh Devkota (Interviews George) "Finding Your True Path"
George Caspar shares his journey from corporate law to criminal defense, revealing how following his authentic interests transformed his career and life satisfaction. He discusses making the leap from a cubicle job that was "robbing him of his soul" to meaningful courtroom work where he can directly impact people's lives.
• Switched careers to find work that directly solves problems for real people instead of being several steps removed from actual impact
• Found that staying in work that didn't interest him prevented advancement despite good performance reviews
• Discovered that Toastmasters provided the confidence to face courtroom challenges by helping him overcome public speaking anxiety
• Values face-to-face interaction and believes the power of Toastmasters lies in in-person connections despite benefits of virtual options
• Emphasizes the importance of being willing to make mistakes to learn and grow professionally
• Credits his "loyalty" quality for maintaining discipline in practices like morning pages (250+ consecutive days)
• Recommends finding what truly interests you rather than following a career path that feels obligatory
• Believes mentorship is crucial but acknowledges that meaningful mentor relationships often develop organically
• Finds purpose in having impact and creating value, which keeps anxiety and depression at bay
Apex Toastmasters is a President's distinguished club founded in 1996 and located in Apex, North Carolina, USA.
We meet every Thursday night at 7:00 pm at the Apex Baptist Church and online. See club website for details.
Club Website: https://www.apextoastmasters.org/
Facebook Page: https://www.facebook.com/search/top?q=apex%20toastmasters
If you enjoyed what you heard, please take a moment to like, share, rate, or review this podcast. Thank you for listening, and we'll see you in the next podcast.
Welcome to the Apex Toastmasters podcast. I am normally your host, George Casper. This episode was recorded on Monday, September 22nd, 2025. In this episode, we flipped the script, and Janesh Dakota, Apex Toastmasters current vice president of education, interviewed me for a project in the effective coaching path level 4 elective create a podcast. Let's go to the conversation.
SPEAKER_00:Good afternoon, audience. I would like to briefly introduce our guest. I met George in Epic'S Toastmasters. He was an attorney in the corporate world, and a few years ago he changed his career to be a criminal lawyer now. George, welcome to the podcast. Thank you. It's great to be here. Do you want to add anything that I might have missed when I was introducing you?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Well, when you say I was an attorney in the corporate world, that makes it sound more interesting or important than it actually was. The truth is that I spent many years sitting in a cubicle doing work that I wasn't really all that excited to do. My switch to criminal law happened because I had never stepped foot in a courtroom. I wanted to see what it was like to have a trial, compete against another attorney to see whose argument wins. I also was attracted to the criminal space because there's more at stake. Somebody's freedom is at issue. It's not a question of, you know, will the company make more money if I introduce this sort of efficiency or it just felt more real to me.
SPEAKER_00:Now, a lot of people, I'm sure, thrive in that corporate environment and nothing against them, but it just so the reason you wanted to change was to have a real impact on people's lives?
SPEAKER_02:For some reason, I just and again, other people have a different experience, but for some reason, sitting and at a computer all day auditing legal bills or doing tasks of that nature always felt to me like I was several steps removed from solving actual problems for actual people. And even to the extent it helped the company I was working for, like my supervisors would always try to justify what I was doing, that it saved the company money. But the more I thought about it, the the less I sure I was that it even did that. We were always trying to figure out ways to show the company that we were saving the company money. And the way we did that was we implemented things that could actually demonstrate some sort of dollar amount. One of the ways we did that was through auditing legal bills. I worked for an insurance company and we audited the legal bills that the law firms who represented the the insurance company submitted to us. And so if I cut a certain amount out of their bill, I could I could go to the company and say, look, I saved you this amount of money. But in reality, what was happening was okay, the law firm would see that I cut that specific thing out of their bill. So they would just bill it in some other way. Whether I was actually saving the company money is up for debate. What I was doing was providing the company with numbers to say that they were saving themselves, you know. So it was just yeah, performing these tasks that didn't really, I mean, maybe it had some impact in reality, but I'm not a hundred percent sure. And and some people loved doing that kind of stuff, just for me. I it felt like it was robbing me of my soul, to be honest.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I know all of us have these desires, like, okay, I want to do this thing, but we just hold off on them until something happens, right? So you need to push. So just curious, like I also wanted to do this podcast, and I saw you doing episodes after episodes for Epic Stores Master. Then I thought, like, okay, I can maybe I can do this. So, how did you get that motivation to now, after a number of years in corporate world, and you like you said, right? You your soul was being sucked and you're not enjoying the work. How how did you get the motivation? And how do people relate from your experience to now achieve that thing they want to achieve?
SPEAKER_02:I guess you have to do something that interests you. And the truth is, what I was doing in the corporate world didn't really interest me. And I'm sure that my supervisors caught on to that, and which is why I never really I mean, I reached a certain level in the corporate world, but it didn't seem uh it always felt like I was never I never got to the levels that I wanted to get to, and it didn't seem like anyone was interested in allowing me to get to those levels. So I I think what you need to do is do something that you're actually interested in. For a long time I felt like you know, I had to pay my dues, doing stuff that actually didn't interest me, and eventually it would pay off. And my ratings were always good, I always got good ratings, I always got along with the people I worked with. My bosses always told me I was doing a good job and generating the numbers they wanted, but I still never got to the next level. Okay, and I think I attribute that to the fact that I I really wasn't interested in what I was doing, and and my bosses probably picked up on that. Now, in terms of the podcast, why I'm able to get started and produce episodes is because I'm actually interested in it, and the reason why I'm interested in it is I I love being creative, I like writing, I like creating projects out of nothing, which essentially that's what the podcast is, you know. And that that just excites me. I I also like getting feedback, and one of the unique things about a podcast is you get all this data back, like how many downloads you got and from what countries people are down. We have listeners to the Apex Toastmasters podcast from Singapore for some reason. I don't know why. And maybe these stats are just not reflective of reality, who who knows? But I don't know, it still motivates me to see them. That's great.
SPEAKER_00:Thanks, George. I'd like to transition a little bit to the Toastmaster because that's how you and I got connected, right? When I first joined Toastmaster, I have to admit, I thought it was only for people like me, was English, English is not a native language. I thought it was something like ESL where you would go and practice. And when I first came to this meeting, there was a lot of blend of um native speakers, non-native speakers like me, and and a diverse set of people. I was just curious, like, how did you initially get up to Toastmaster? What why did you join Toastmaster? And how how did it shape your leadership from Toastmasters?
SPEAKER_02:When I started Toastmasters, I was working from home. And I really just wanted an excuse to get out of my house and have a place to go where I would be interacting with other people.
SPEAKER_00:So this was when?
SPEAKER_02:This was 2015, something like that. And my job did not require me to speak, speak in front of groups of people, right? Uh, even though I very much would have enjoyed that, it just wasn't part of my job. And going to Toastmasters when I first started really excited me because the it touched on some primal fear that I had about being in front of a group of people and expressing myself. I liked doing it and I felt like I was I had a natural ability to do it. But when I was put in that position, I would definitely feel the adrenaline rush. I especially things like table topics, where I could sense that my turn to come might come at any moment as that moment approached me. After I got up and gave my speech or table topics response or whatever, there would be a release. I would experience that rush, and then I would have the release of like gotten through to the other side. I faced that fear, and there would be like a catharsis kind of thing. I I really enjoyed that experience of feeling that even though it was there was some fear there, the experience of facing the fear and getting to the other side was very maybe addictive. I don't know if addictive is the right word. It was cathartic at the very least. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:That's great. And you said you joined 2015, and I've seen a lot of people join, they have a really nice stint, they finish a few labels, and then people and then life comes, right? Life happens to all of us. So, over the years, how do you prioritize? Okay, Toastmastery is something I have to go because I've seen you almost every week, if not every other week, since I joined like two and a half years ago. And how would you suggest people joining first? How do they prioritize when life gets into their way?
SPEAKER_02:I have this quality to me, and it it might be misplaced, but I feel a sense of loyalty to things that especially organizations that I've gotten something out of, which I feel like I got something out of Toastmaster. That experience of regularly getting up there and facing that fear and and getting to the other side of it. I I've reached a point where I don't really experience that fear anymore. And that's been transformative to me and very valuable to me. But so there were people there who created this environment for me to have that experience when I entered it. And I and now I'm one of those people who's creating that environment for other people to have that experience. And I guess I attribute that to this sense of loyalty that I have. That you know, if I if I got something out of the out of the organization, yeah, my loyalty dictates that I should be there to allow it to be there for somebody else. Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_00:So I assume that loyalty part of thing, it just keeps you going. And you also did a lot of roles in Toastmasters, like you became president, now you are VPPR, before that you were area director, you got your DTM. Is that how you attribute all those success? Part of loyalty?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, certainly the the leadership roles, because that's not really my main motivation to be in Toastmasters. I I think my motivation to serve in those leadership roles has been either to achieve my DTM or to just give back to the club.
SPEAKER_00:So, how do we, as Toastmasters, help new people when they join, right? It's not just a place where you practice communication, but you you can also develop your leadership skills. Is there a way that we can you can like pitch in like an elevator pitch?
SPEAKER_02:Like, this is how you can achieve how would I encourage someone to get involved? Is that what you're asking?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_02:I don't know that you can encourage someone to get involved by giving them an elevator pitch. I think they have to I think they have to come and experience it and observe transformation in other people and observe transformation in themselves. And I think uh witnessing that is what provides the the motivation for an individual to to be involved.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think that's exactly my experience. When I first came, I didn't even know, did what I was just excited to be there, and if I have a role, I would do it and still come there week after week. So now going on a leadership role, it just gives you a different perspective on how you can give back to the club. So glad to hear we are on the same page there. So, what is one thing you you think like, okay, we could improve or introduce a new role? Is there anything that you have in mind? I know we have a set of roles that we have in in Toastmasters, right? Surgeon at arms, word of the day, and everything else, but uh anything based on your experience you have lived for the last 11 years, anything you feel like it's missing or we could improve uh the Toastmaster as a whole?
SPEAKER_02:It's hard to say. I I mean I and certain people aren't gonna want to hear this, but I I think some of the changes they've made over the years have taken away from the power of Toastmasters. One of those changes is is pathways. I I liked the older version better. And basically anything that emphasizes the virtual component, I think there's some movement in Toastmasters to make Toastmasters more virtual, less face-to-face, less actual booklets you can hold on your hand, you know, everything electronic, everything virtual. I think the power of Toastmasters is in face-to-face interactions. And I originally joined Toastmasters because I was sitting at home working from home. And I wanted to get out and actually interact with real people. The same thing with my criminal law focus. You know, I wanted to actually be dealing with actual people and actual situations in courtrooms, having actual arguments with other attorneys before judges, you know, where there's actual stakes involved. So maybe that that's more a reflection of me than what is actually best for Toastmasters in general. I don't I don't know, but that's how I I tend to think about it.
SPEAKER_00:I I think being virtual is okay. I mean, we as the Toastmasters in Epex meet in person as much as possible and also give folks like Kiran, who is in Canada, and they can still be involved. So I I think from that perspective it's okay. But for those of us who can go to meetings in person, uh that's that's a great experience. And also you get to those. I I love the small talk that we do before the meetings, after the meetings, so you're not just tied within a meeting, you can have that conversation. That that's something I I really enjoy about our club and being able to be in person.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I mean, and don't get me wrong, obviously the virtual aspect expands the experience. I love Karan. I I I in fact I just recorded a podcast with him yesterday. Oh wow. And and if we didn't have the virtual if we didn't have the virtual component, I wouldn't be able to record any podcast, really. So yes, that it's good and it allows us to do things we wouldn't otherwise be able to do. But I do believe that the face-to-face interaction portion of Toastmasters should be preserved and emphasized as much as possible. I think. Yeah, because I don't get that rush that I get in front of a room full of people. I don't get that rush when it's virtual. So it's a different experience. And yes, it's a different experience, and yes, it has its own value, but the face-to-face has value, and that should be primary in in my mind.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no disagreeing on that one. I I have listened to a lot of your speeches, and two speeches just come to my mind as you were talking. So you had a speech where we talk about the R counter and giving the credit uh where the person says, What are the days? And also another fascinating speech I thought was the morning pages about a few weeks ago, and I had started writing on my own, and I'm like 39th day on my journey. I just want that side with the discipline, right? So, what does discipline mean to you and what daily weekly practices do you have when you are pursuing your goals?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's it's not easy. I I do do morning pages, um, which is uh every morning I get up first thing and write handwrite three pages of stream of consciousness writing. And I do feel like that's valuable because uh I'll get insights from that that I wouldn't otherwise have gotten. And sometimes it feels like a burden because the discipline question I think is tied up with that loyalty quality that I discussed. And sometimes that can be a burden because uh now I I'm on day 250 or so of morning pages, and I haven't missed I haven't missed a day. That's great. But now I've got this thing that I feel I need to be loyal to, and so that creates the discipline for that particular task. So it's kind of a double-edged sword. Sometimes I'm loyal to things that maybe I shouldn't be loyal to.
SPEAKER_00:An example.
SPEAKER_02:I don't want this to be taken the wrong way, but I feel a loyalty to the United States or to the Catholic Church. And I I don't know that the loyalty is returned in kind uh in certain circumstances. And you know, so sometimes I feel like that loyalty can be not necessarily taken advantage of because I'm not sure that those organizations uh realize I exist. I do have this personality quality to me that I become loyal to things. I'm loyal to Toastmasters, I'm loyal to other things as well. And with Toastmasters, I feel like the loyalty is returned in spades. Although the return on investment isn't necessarily the reason for the loyalty. This is something I need to just, you know, maybe hash out with a psychologist.
SPEAKER_00:Or just writing the morning pages, I think it'll be more clear as you write.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's it's like I've done it for 250 pages, so now I can't stop. And now I have to keep going, whether I receive insights from it or not.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, go and hopefully I do continue to, but I think that's a discipline that now you can leverage to other areas of your life, right? Now you you can tell to yourself, I've done this for 250 days in a row. I can build any habit if I want. I I think that's also testament to your character.
SPEAKER_02:Um yeah, it doesn't translate to all areas of my life. I've been trying to write a sequel to the novel that I wrote and published, and I can go through spurts where I'm very focused on that and will do a certain amount of work per day on it, but I will eventually get back to it. But I bring that up as an example, like this loyalty and discipline works in certain areas of my life very well, but in other areas it doesn't. Other areas where like I would want to specifically apply it to, it doesn't as effectively. And I'm not sure why it works in some areas and not in others for me.
SPEAKER_00:That's something we can all relate to, right? We can do certain things very easily, and some things it it's so hard. So I appreciate your insights on that. So, George, as you're talking, going from virtual to in-person, and then and then you also had a transition on your own career. How how much do you think Toastmasters public speaking did help you take that leap of faith from going from your corporate words to the criminal lawyer? Do you see yourself like improving or becoming a better communicator as you go to the court and advocate on somebody's behalf?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, two things. First and foremost, the the willingness to be able to face the fear of getting in front of somebody or a group of people and expressing myself and doing it regardless of whether I've the adrenaline spikes, you know, just having the willingness to get up there and do it. That definitely helped me in my transition because when I first started criminal law, I didn't really know what I was doing. I would get in a courtroom and I would learn by making mistakes. But I had to be willing to make the mistakes, to get up there and be willing to face that fear and and uh learn from that mistake. Which is something when I was a kid, I was not willing to do. I was for whatever reason I was very shy and reserved and uh very unwilling to put myself out there to make a mistake because I would I would feel humiliated if if I got if I did something, if I tried to do something and didn't succeed, I I would I would feel humiliated. And at some point I decided I didn't want to feel humiliated anymore. And but that was a bad decision to make because if if I'm not willing to put myself out there and make mistakes, then I can't learn from my mistakes, and so I'll I never get better. Yeah, I never actually I never actually gain mastery over whatever I'm afraid to do. So Toastmasters, I I think was instrumental in priming me to be able to get to put myself in situations where I could potentially fail, but but also to learn from that failure. So to be willing to get out there and fail and to be willing to learn from that mistake in order to move past uh uh those situations and gain mastery. I never would have made the transition to criminal law, I don't think, if I hadn't gone through Toastmasters. That's one thing. The other thing is about communicating better. Uh it's basically the same thing. You only get to communicate more effectively if you are willing to take the leap to communicate. And if you're afraid to do it, then you will never have that experience and you will never get better. So you gotta be will you gotta be willing to face the fire and learn from mistakes.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_02:I I think is the the answer to that.
SPEAKER_00:One thing I'm curious is right, all of us have been hearing like go make mistakes, get up, learn from it, and fail fast, learn fast kind of culture. But in the criminal lawyer side, how what what does the mistake entail, right? Because there are some things at stake, and what is the extent of mistake?
SPEAKER_02:Is it like a documentation mistake, or there's just a million different details in as a practicing criminal defense attorney? When you're in the courtroom, there's a million things. Procedure, there's points of law, there's dealing with clients. Every day, every almost every day when I'm in the courtroom, I'll have an experience where I'll be like, oh, okay, next time I can do that a little bit differently.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:And it'll work better. So they're they're not always fatal mistakes where you know it means the difference between my client going to jail or going free. Although some sometimes it it early on there I have had experiences where that it might have made some difference in that and and things like that. But usually it's it's little details where like in a trial, I could ask, I could cross-examine the state trooper, I could present the question a little bit differently so he didn't have a way of weaseling out. There's a way I can ask questions to a person on the witness stand. And if if I ask it one way, it could leave it open for them to answer in a way that I don't want them to. I want to get evidence in that helps me, and I I don't want evidence to enter in that that hurts me.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_02:But but essentially it it's like, you know, I could ask a question in a certain way, and it would narrow it down where he would only be able to answer in a way that that I would want him to. Uh, you know, I could say, like in your report, you didn't make any mention of this, and he would have to say, Yes, that's correct. Whereas I could say, What did you say in your report about the specific thing? And they they could go off in a bunch of different directions, you know. So I don't know, it's just little details like that. And I can learn them academically prior to being in the position where I'm sitting in a chair in a courtroom. Uh, but that doesn't have the same effect of me actually sitting in the courtroom and having to face that specific example and realizing, oh, I could have done it differently. That imprints it in my mind in a deeper way than than learning about it in a textbook or or you know abstractly. Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. Those questions, when you think like, okay, I could have asked those differently, do you go and write them them, write them down so next time you use those formats, or it just goes in your brain directly. So next time you just use that format.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's burned into my brain. I think the important point is that you have to put yourself in situations, have to be willing to put yourself in situations where you're not 100% sure of what you're doing in order to learn how to do it. At least that's been my experience.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think that that's great. Uh, thanks for sharing all those information because me, somebody coming from a different background, I cannot visualize okay, what could be uh some of the mistakes that you could learn from. So that was uh that was very insightful chores. So I'd like to touch slightly on mentoring aspect of things. We as a club offer mentorship to folks who come to join Toastmasters, right? But mentoring is something that you can relate in a professional career as well. So if you were mentoring a young professional, right? Young professional who wants to go be a criminal lawyer someday and fishing their uh career crossroads, what what pieces of leadership advice would you give to them?
SPEAKER_02:Leadership advice?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, or any advice you would give to them.
SPEAKER_02:I would say find out what really interests you and do that. Don't follow a career path that you're not interested in, thinking that it will somehow pay off in the future. Uh, because in my experience, that's not what happened. Now, maybe other people will have a different experience. I would also say if you're gonna go into the criminal law area, I would say get experience enough to so you know what you're doing and then work for yourself. Because, and again, this is me, this is this is not everyone. Right, but I did not thrive in experiences where I had supervisors breathing down my neck, reviewing me, and and that sort of thing. The point at which I started to thrive was when I got out on my own and was able to make my own mistakes and learn from my own mistakes and be my own boss.
SPEAKER_00:How do you help people, uh young people who are just starting their career?
SPEAKER_02:Well, the advice I would give is you gotta know what you're doing in the courtroom. And the only way you can do that is by experience. Uh, so you gotta get that experience. And maybe that means working for a firm to start out with so that you have a way to enter into that. Because I I don't think I I would never have. Done it on my own without having someone at least show me the basics, and that's what I have. I have a a mentor who who was able to show me the basics. We have kind of a unique relationship in that. I mean, technically I'm working for a firm, but in reality, I'm out there by myself. I don't really check in with her all that much anymore. Okay. So anyway, you got to learn the ropes. And so that might mean working for somebody else in the beginning. But I I think eventually you got to work for yourself, at least if you have a temperament like mine. Because I never thrived in a corporate situation where I had someone supervising me and expecting certain things from me on a daily basis. I I only truly thrived when I was out on my own working for myself and was my own boss.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, one thing I always think is we as humans, we we don't have a natural tendency just to raise our hand and go ask questions. Uh, how would people find mentors? And how important is mentorship? You just said somebody showed you the way, but there is still majority of us who don't have a dedicated mentor, somebody who we can go and express.
SPEAKER_02:And yeah, a mentor is definitely important. And if your question is, how do you find a mentor? I I mean it was kind of random how I found my mentor. We we were we knew each other because we were both a part of a different organization, not law-related at all. And but we found out that we were both attorneys and she was a criminal lawyer, and I always been interested in criminal law, so it just sort of happened by happenstance that she guided me into the practice of criminal law, and she was willing to take the time to take me under her wing and certainly in the beginning to get me started. And then once I reached a certain point where I knew enough to continue and learn from my own mistakes, then I was able to go off on my own. So she was very important, and very grateful to her for what she did for me, but I think it was just divine intervention that we came together. I don't know that I could tell someone else this is how you find a mentor. She just appeared in my life. It happened to be a time when I could use her.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's amazing. Even in Toastmaster, when I first came in and I met Bob and we used to meet every week, and somebody who has walked the path and giving you the vision like this is what you have to, yeah, what you can achieve, this is what you can do, these are the reps you need to do. I I think having that resource is amazing, and yeah, uh, it would be nice if there was an easier way in like real world, or even I don't remember any courses or anything in grad school or even PhD, like you need to have a mentor to be successful. I did not run across that concept until I started reading some self-help books on how you can be the better person of yourself. So I think uh having that uh perspective to the young folks when they first start out to reach out for the mentors and learn from people who already went that path, I think that'll be great.
SPEAKER_02:Again, it's I mean in Toastmasters we have a mentorship program, right? So you can be set up with a mentor. Although I don't know that I've had much luck with that personally, uh either being a mentor or getting mentors. I I did have one mentor in my early days, and nothing really came of that. And then I've had mentees where I say to them, come to me, do you have any questions? or you know, and have had limited success. So I I don't know. I think the mentor-mentee relationship in all areas, not just Soastmasters, there has to be a little bit of lightning in a bottle, it has to sort of be meant to be.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you you need to be sure. What do you want of this protise mentorship relationship? If you're not sure, then I I think slowly it fades down. But my experience with Bob also was not just a Toastmaster mentor. I I think we talked about books, we talked about things. It was more like life coach, or even he shared things, I shared my things, and it was not necessarily always Toastmasters, and which was something I enjoyed.
SPEAKER_02:Bob is great, I value knowing him absolutely.
SPEAKER_00:Cool. So, George, thanks so much for your time today. One question I would like to ask you is like, what impact do we want to have on this world and how?
SPEAKER_02:In terms of specific impact, I'm not sure. But in terms of impact in general, I I want to have an impact in general. I I find that when I do have an impact, I'm more engaged, I feel better about myself. When I feel like I'm not having an impact, it's when anxiety and depression set in. It's it's when I, you know, life is not worth living. Maybe that's a bit dramatic. But really, yeah, it's having an impact in general, being valued, being creative and receiving positive feedback, or help helping somebody or making somebody laugh, or being of value to an organization like Toastmasters, create helping to create something where somebody else can have a positive experience. It's stuff like that that makes me feel alive, makes me feel like I'm I don't know, makes me feel alive, makes me feel like I enjoy life. Any impact at all, I think is good.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I I think the impact for million years or even Gen G is like everybody has to do something that's like out of the world, and and I think like that race for creating an impact is just impacting other areas of life, how you live, and and things like that. So I think that's uh fascinating how we are ingrained that you need to have that impact worldwide and have to have a name for yourself. I I think it's too much of a kill uh from my perspective. All right, George, uh, thank you so much for your time today, and I'll talk to you later.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, thank you, Janesh. I enjoyed it.
unknown:Thanks.
SPEAKER_02:Apex Toastmasters is the president's distinguished club founded in 1996 and located in Apex, North Carolina. The views and opinions expressed in this episode are solely those of the host and guest, and do not reflect the views or opinions of Toastmasters in general, or Apex Toastmasters in specific. If you enjoyed what you heard, please take a moment to like, share, rate, or review this podcast. Thank you for listening, and we'll see you in the next podcast.