Curiosity to Learn, Courage to Unlearn: What Growth Really Demands of You With Cameron Schwab

Welcome to another Bonus Archive Gem of Origin to Ambition! In this bite-sized excerpt, host Sean Dunne sits down for a deeply candid conversation on what it truly means to be coachable, stay curious, and navigate the demands of leadership and entrepreneurship.

Using the metaphor of extreme endurance cycling (the "3-Peaks" ride), the discussion explores why so many people love the identity and purpose of success, but falter when confronted with the actual work required. They also tackle a fundamental question: Is entrepreneurship really for everyone?

Key Takeaways from This Episode:

• Curiosity vs. Unlearning: Learning requires curiosity, but letting go of old habits and beliefs takes genuine courage.
• The "What" of Success: Most people focus on the Who, Why, and How of a goal. However, true commitment comes down to answering one question: "Am I prepared to do WHAT it will ask of me?"
• Self-Directed Drive: The most telling job interview/coaching question: "What is the best thing you’ve ever taught yourself?"
• Redefining Entrepreneurship: Entrepreneurship doesn't have to look like building an empire—it can simply be finding an opportunity to do what you love with a viable commercial model.
• Staying Vibrant: How creative outlets (like art and storytelling) help leaders maintain perspective, energy, and joy as they age.

Featured Quotes:

"It takes curiosity to learn; it takes courage to unlearn."
"Everyone will talk about the 'who' and the 'why,' and they'll often ask about the 'how'... but it always comes down to the 'what.' Are you prepared to do what it will ask of you?"

Connect with Shaun Dunn & Dominium Capital:

Website: dominiumcapital.com.au

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Origin to Ambition, the show where we explore the small business entrepreneurs' journey in business. I'm your host, Sean Dunn. Let's get into it. So when a new prospective client comes to me, one of the questions I do ask these days, I never used to ask when I started, I probably didn't have the courage, can to be honest, but now I ask them if they're coachable. And I appreciate the coachability. Coachability can mean slightly different things to different people, of course. But I do ask if people are coachable. And and when I say coachable, I mean, you know, is you are you open-minded enough to push yourself into um into an area that might be a little bit uncomfortable and um to be a bit cliched, you know. Growth comes from challenges, you know, uh and adversity. So what I just found interesting in what you just said was that you had an art professor kind of challenge your thinking, but you know, your success from that is that you're you're you're looking to grow. So when we talk about growth mindset, and again, I was probably throwing a few cliches around here, but that growth mindset that you've got, you know, you know, changed your outlook there and and and you know, gave you your your mojo in a sense, in an indirect way. Is that fair to say?

SPEAKER_01 1:11

Yeah, I think so. So I'm 62 now, so I often think about if there was if there was one thing and one thing only, which is going to keep you know, I don't I don't stay young, I've got that interesting staying young, but you know, staying vibrant. Vibrant is still something around one of my favourite quotes, it takes curiosity to learn, it takes courage to unlearn. Takes curiosity to learn, it takes courage to unlearn. So the the the curiosity piece is is is almost the is almost the starting point where do I have a curiosity about art? The interesting thing about art is I I probably realised I couldn't do it full time, at least at that point in life. There were still other things which I wanted to do, but I but I have an art practice now. I try and produce something which is probably a little bit different. It's not so much a piece of art, it's more an illustrative take on something which happens in a game of footy. I I start my art actually started off with when I was a young fellow, I loved superheroes and and so I used to draw you know your Batmans and Supermans, and the footballers became my superheroes, so I'd I'd draw you know footballers taking impossible marks and and there was they because they were big and they were you know they were talented and they were athletic and they sort of looked a little bit like superheroes, you know, in that in that sense. And so my my art is really quite comic book oriented even to this day. And so I I draw, I I try to pick a moment of the match from every round of footy, which gives me an opportunity to to use the moment, illustrate the moment with with a with a drawing, and I just I just draw my interpretation of something and and then but with a piece of writing which actually comes with it.

SPEAKER_00 2:49

And it's it's interesting thing that we've done something. Sorry to break you mid stride there, but can I encourage any listeners to uh follow you on LinkedIn to see your uh your art? Because I uh I absolutely uh like just about every piece you you ever put up there. So I anyone who's going for again, who's your team? I'm I'm a bluebagger.

SPEAKER_01 3:08

Okay, well it's actually a blue bag, it's actually a bluebagger one coming out.

SPEAKER_00 3:12

So about the young fellow who missed the goal tailor on the weekend. So yeah, so the Yeah, okay, that's an interesting story. Um another time. But I'll be I'll keep my eyes open for that one. So I encourage anyone to follow you on LinkedIn to get a dose of art. Yeah, well, this is sorry, can't that's okay.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

So it's more sort of an illustrative to but but really it's the story that I'm looking at. And yeah, absolutely. In regard to so that's the other thing which came out of art. And I was always a storyteller, and there was a natural element to that, and I grew up very, very, very much, yeah, very, very much with stories. But to just to be able to have that curiosity, I think that's the thing which which keeps you energized. So, yeah, let's like in job interviews, first question I always used to ask is, you know, what's the best thing you've ever taught yourself? What's the best thing you've ever taught yourself? And and and what you're trying to do is find out whether people can they can drive their own grow growth, they can drive their own learning. And and the other thing is when they you know, one, it sets them back a little bit. So there's a there's a there's a little bit of having to deal with a bit of the tension of the question as well, you know, because it's not your obvious question that you ask. And and but when they actually find the thing, you'll know if the person's eyes light up, you know, when they tell the story of something, you know, that's it that generally there was curiosity and courage embedded in the process of learning because the chances are that they went down a track, they had to learn something, they had to find something out, they would have made a mistake, they would have had to have bounced back, all the sorts of things which which growth, as you mentioned, the discomfort of growth will actually ask of you. And and you'll know, you know, Alan Jeans, who was a great mentor of mine, the great Hawthorne coach, he he said you can't put in what God took out, you know, that there is a certain mindset that individuals actually that that they actually have when it comes to that. But you actually get to see the best part of them as well. It's it's so much you know, because the job that you're actually asking him to do, the chances are it's going to change and evolve and grow. Well, it's almost certain that it's gonna change and evolve and grow if they're gonna be anything for you over some uh any extended period of time. So therefore, you're wanting them to be able to be self-directed learners. You're not wanting them to be having to knock on your door or walk into your office every time there's something, you know, that that's part of it. And then the next question is what's the next thing that you you really can to learn about? And and again, your eyes will light up. It's it's something which means enough to them that they're prepared to allocate whatever that thing's then going to ask of them. And and it's a and mate, it can be anything. It really can be anything, it doesn't it doesn't matter. And so the curiosity piece, and I'm with you. So the the first question before I coach someone, I'm I'm happy to go through a little framing of this if you like, because I think it's uh it's it relates to even organizations.

SPEAKER_00 5:54

Sean Dunn here, and thank you for watching this episode of Origin to Ambition, The Entrepreneur's Journey. I'm a financial advisor who specializes in working with small business entrepreneurs and high-income earning executives. We analyse cash flow, build assets, and protect those assets to help our clients do what they want when they want with the people that they want to do it with. So if that's of interest to you, head over to our website and book an initial discovery call, and I'd look forward to speaking with you. What's the piece of advice you would give, the one piece of advice that you would give somebody looking to start up a business?

SPEAKER_01 6:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:32

I'm wondering whether you just sort of touched on it. Yeah, can you get good at it?

SPEAKER_01 6:36

Yeah. And so it's not a it's not an advice, because I don't give advice, but uh, it's the idea I'd share, you know. But it even mate, the funny thing is, and you don't know what good necessarily looks like, but you you do it there's a little danger in getting good, is that you do get caught up in comparisons and expectations, and that can produce a little bit of envy, but and I think there's a natural element of that, because you're comparing your very much work in progress with someone else's very much finished piece of thinking in in concepts of it. But then when you even envy, which I think is one of the it's one of the deadly sins, isn't it? I think it's I think it's it is, yes. I'm just thinking the Brad Pitt movie seven.

SPEAKER_00 7:15

So envy gets around. I think it is one of them. I think it is, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:20

Yeah. So so where does the envy come from? Is actually so if I'm envious about something, I go, is it is it about the identity or the purpose or the you know, what is it? But it's mostly I sort of comes down to not the who, the why, the the identity purpose or the how, because we can get a system, but it's are you prepared to do what it will ask of you? What it will ask of you. And and so often people go like I'm a cyclist and every year there's this great ride called Three Peaks, you know, everyone goes out there, they were crazy hard. People take between nine and fifteen hours to do it. And and I'm I'm sort of fit enough to get on the bike most days can do enough, you know, in that in that sense as a one of those I think I'm past the enamel phase. I'm actually probably per past it. But I do get in the locker and do all that sort of stuff.

SPEAKER_00 8:11

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:12

And everyone says, Oh, you're gonna do three peaks. And it's become my sort of metaphor for exactly this conversation because I go, I I like the identity piece, yeah, yeah, I'd love to say, Yeah, I've done three peaks. Yes. The purpose, yeah, endurance events and all of that. There's really deep sense of training for an outcome and deep sense of purpose. The the who and the the why and the the who and the why, yeah, I get that. And then the how, everyone goes into the how. I go, yeah, well, I reckon I could work out the system. Be there's a million people who've done it already, they'll teach me, coach me, and you know, and whether I do it well on the day, but you know, the the how, you know, they have to train a certain amount of money, have to get good at, you know, nutrition on the bri on the bike. There's a whole lot of things you have to learn. The big question is, am I prepared to do what it will take? Am I prepared to do the fact that I'm gonna have to train for seven hours each Saturday? Am I prepared to do people everyone will talk about the who, the why. So they'll often ask about the how. It always comes down to the what. Are you prepared to do what it will ask of you? And so what that then says to me is how how much how much do you want to do through Ps? How much and at this stage I have it. So um but but does that make sense in that in that way? Because Yeah. Yeah, because I like I love the fact I've built this little brand and there's identity, there's purpose and all that sort of stuff. But don't worry, there's times like oh, wouldn't it be just good to have a salary coming in every month? Wouldn't it be good just to have a, you know, have a you know not having to worry about doing my own tax and wouldn't it be worried about, you know, wouldn't it be good to worry about all this? You know, you know, I was used to having you know, 200 people in a footy club sort of doing most of the stuff that you had to do. Often I was the only person who could control my diary in the whole organization. It was actually a bit of a weird thing because I was making other people busy.

SPEAKER_00 10:05

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. That that feeds a little bit into a question that I do ask. And I I won't talk about having an entrepreneurial mindset because I think a lot of the things you've you've you've given this a treasure trove of uh thoughts around that, I think, just in this discussion. So I I don't think that's the question. But I do ask all of my guests, is entrepreneurship for everyone?

SPEAKER_01 10:29

I think your version of entrepreneurship can be for anyone. If it's you know, if it's the Elon Musk version of it, it's certainly not for me. Is is it is it the person who sees a little opening in the world of which that they can do the stuff that they're good at good at and they'll enjoy doing and there's a commercial model in it, well I can't see why it's not for everyone. You know, so so it is a for me, yeah, you do need to go tick the how the the the you know the who, the why, the how, but the big box you've got to tick is the what. And and for me, like I know I I had this conversation, this is this is a true story. I I won't tell the person's name, but it's a good con it's a good story. He he said he he was long-term CEO, big business, went through a really challenging phase, navigated it beautifully and all that sort of stuff. And he ran me up and said, Oh, well, I'm I'm I just want to let you know that I I've resigned and I'm gonna move into the whatever the next thing is. Oh, okay, cool, yeah, cool. We had a good chat. And what's the next thing? And he goes, Well, I'm really fucked. He said, I'm really tired. I'm really fucked. And and I said, Okay. I said, Well the way I read it is you've got two things. You you know you go back into your CEO world or you you know, you can look to Bill, you know, you've got this unbelievable experience. You could do the sort of work I'm doing, you'd be great at coaching leaders, and you've become you've learned so much. And he said, Oh, and I've had a couple of phone calls from you know, people looking for another CEO. I'll I'll go to those interviews and see what happens. I said, I thought you said you were fucked. Yeah, so what so what I'm saying from that is that it will either of them are gonna ask a lot of you. So going and actually thinking, I don't know if I could like for instance, I don't know. I I'm not sure, for example, I would have done what I've done if the phone had rung three months later and said, you know, come and be the CEO of Calm.

unknown 12:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:19

I I'm not sure I would have done it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I think you need to be you've got to be clear on what it's gonna ask of you, knowing that it's asking things of you that you probably don't fully understand and and most likely you would underestimate at the time, because we we tend to be underestimaters in that sense.

SPEAKER_00 12:40

And that's all for this episode of Origin to Ambition. Thanks for tuning in. To make sure we don't miss our next conversation, be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen in. For more information, you can visit us at dominiumcapital.com.au, and we'll see you next time.