We Need To Talk About The Good We Do.

What do the Royal Navy, the Falklands War, a mysterious black briefcase and a suspiciously productive potato have in common? In this episode, they all lead back to Freemasonry.

Dan and Reuben sit down with Worshipful Brother Clive Fletcher, a Royal Navy veteran, marine engineer and three-time Master of Avon Shirley Lodge No. 185. Clive reflects on growing up in a deeply Masonic family, despite nobody being willing to explain where his father kept disappearing to in a dark suit, and on joining his father’s lodge in 1985.

The conversation explores the camaraderie Clive found in both naval service and Freemasonry, his move from England to Christchurch, and the remarkable chain of coincidences that led him to Avon Lodge. He also shares candid advice on leadership, preparing for the Master’s chair and knowing when to focus your energy rather than collecting Masonic titles like particularly elaborate Pokémon.

Along the way, Clive discusses cancer support, men’s health awareness, community volunteering and the legendary lodge potato-growing challenge.

It is a thoughtful, funny and refreshingly honest conversation about brotherhood, service, leadership and finding somewhere you truly belong.

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Transcript

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Selling Ourselves Without Hype

SPEAKER_01 0:06

We are our own worst enemies. We do not go out and broadcast enough what we do. We still tend to be conservative, perhaps with a small C. But we need to go out. We need to sell ourselves better. I'm not opposed in marketing or anything like that. There'll be people out there more qualified. We need to sit down and get out there, put out our message, and welcome people. We're not focused.

Meet Clive from Avon Shirley

SPEAKER_02 0:59

Greetings, Raymond. How are you? I'm very good, thank you. And I am very pleased to be sitting here today. We have a very, very special guest, worshipful brother Clive Flecks from the Avon Shirley Lodge, number 185. You're familiar with the Avon? I'm very familiar. That's why I said he's a very good friend of mine. So I I've known Clive for some some time now, and he has blessed us with his presence today. Yes. So hello, Clive. How are you?

SPEAKER_01 1:25

Clive. Good day, Ruben. Good day, Dan. Pleased to be here. Thank you for the invite.

SPEAKER_02 1:29

Thank you for coming.

SPEAKER_01 1:30

Thank you.

Growing Up Around Masonic Silence

SPEAKER_01 1:31

So you're a Freemason? Or an awareness of Freemason. We started as a young boy. Dad, Dad going out perhaps once, twice a month, dressed in a dark suit and tie with a big black briefcase, and his Inquisitive brothers are want to do now. Mum, where's Dad going tonight? What's he gonna do? Who's he gonna see? When's he gonna come home? Nothing was said. Freemasonry was not even mentioned in the house. I didn't know anything about Freemasonry probably until ten years later, when Dad was the master of his own lodge, which is my mother lodge. Oh. Tinsfield in in Bristol. And as two sons both in the teens, you were expected to go with your father and mother to the social gatherings. Yep. So we've been to cricket matches, we've been to bowls tournaments, we've been and watched the things that the Mac is getting to through the years, and of course, we ended up going to the Ladies' Night, which was a big part of the Masters Year. Okay. So two two neat boys at a Masters Ladies' Night. We couldn't dance. We could eat. And that's when I realized that what Dad was doing was actually going out with like-minded people because they all were all approximately the same age. There was it wasn't really a young person's thing, I can't remember. But it was in that time that I realized not only Dad was a Mason, but his two brothers-in-law were, which was Mum's two brothers, and so was Mum's father. So his granddad became the Mason first. He was a small business own owner in Compton Martin. Dad joined in 64 and was master in 75. And the two brothers-in-law both became masters subsequent to that.

SPEAKER_02 3:17

So he became in 64 and then in 75. 75 he was made master of his own lodge, which is my mother lodge. So that's nine years. That's what I said 11 years, my math. If my math is right. So it took him that long. Hang on. Is that normally how long it takes to become a master of that?

SPEAKER_01 3:39

That would have been normal in those days because there were a lot more people joining and coming through. So you you had to go through the steward's positions. You had to probably wait two or three years to even become a steward. Oh wow. Then you did a couple of years stewarding, senior steward. Then you started on the way through from ADC

Navy Life And Choosing To Join

SPEAKER_01 3:56

upwards. I think what proved the tipping point was joining the armed forces. Well, I found the sense of camaraderie, commitment by others, and a common cause. And I think that's what piqued my interest into Masonry was going to find out so many people who are joining on you you read about the famous Masons in history, Winston Churchill's Kipling, and others. It's good enough for them. Why can't I? The only way you could find out was literally to go and and join. Because there was nothing, no internet.

SPEAKER_03 4:24

So tell us about the moment when you did decide to join.

SPEAKER_01 4:28

I know through the Navy, a couple of guys who were Masons, one certainly in my class, and one of our tutors had let it slip. It's about time, Dad, you started talking to your eldest son about what it means. Can't talk to yourself, but you can join. You can apply to join.

unknown 4:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:44

Yeah. So we went through the process, we did the paperwork, we did the interview, and the early thing, well, the time they did it would have been was the December. So I drove from Gossport to Bristol, did the meeting, had the meal, and drove back for the next day's work. I got back about four o'clock in the morning.

SPEAKER_02 5:03

Gosh. So you your dad didn't fill you in on anything that was going to happen? Nothing at all.

SPEAKER_01 5:12

Um granddad had passed on by then. And both my uncles on mum's side, there were we're all basically four five houses, four of which are owned by the same family. But neither of them would talk to me about it.

SPEAKER_02 5:25

So you went in blind, literally and figuratively. You went in blind.

SPEAKER_01 5:30

In square rigged navy outfit. So I was the only guy in the room without a tie. Oh no. Well, at the start, obviously nothing, but I was the only guy in the in the festive board afterwards without a tie. Because I had the naval, proper navel cropped white shirt with the blue banding.

SPEAKER_02 5:45

Nice. And do you think if he had it would have made any difference?

SPEAKER_01 5:50

No, I don't think so. I made my mind up, I think then, as I say, through the camera out, I've been in the Navy six years by then. I've been through the Falklands War, which taught me a lot about me and how to be responsible to others, responsible for others, and the fact that we each relied on your comrade in arms about you. And I think looking back at it, the Navy and the Masons have a lot in common in that brotherhood. When we call ourselves a brotherhood, certainly through the Navy on a warship, you are totally dependent on others around you. And I think that's what actually cemented it and said, hey, you need to go and look at something. I think probably the underground feeling was when I leave the navy, I'm gonna lose that camaraderie. Yeah, I've got someone else to go to.

SPEAKER_03 6:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:39

And I believe that is quite prevalent in a lot of people, men in the forces, they join to keep that camaraderie going. What about the officers? After I joined and done but even done my trade test, and I'd passed out and I was now an active member as an artificer. I looked back at 82, the Falklands War. The captain of that ship, he's no longer with us, unfortunately, was a Freemason. But nothing was let on on that ship because you didn't meet the captain very often. You did for one of two reasons. One, you're going to get promotion, or second, you're in trouble. And I stayed out of the second one and only got promoted once, and they don't shake hand there. But he was a Grand Lodge officer in Britain. He was he actually ended up running one of the charity boards for the few years he'd survived after he left the Navy. He was a really nice guy, a guy called Paul Botherstone. And you're welcome to put that into one because I think he needs. I know he's no longer with us, but I believe his widow is still with us.

SPEAKER_03 7:45

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 7:45

Paul Botherstone, HMS Arrow. He was an absolute superb captain.

SPEAKER_02 7:50

Was there any specific time that you may have got an extra spud in your in your in your in your in your dinner or anything like that? Or any comments or any any stories that you've got that you sort of remember?

SPEAKER_01 8:05

There was no favors given, let's put it that way, because when I was training and that I didn't let people know what I was when my interest was basically. But when I asked, when I knew my initiation was coming, I thought, I've got to drive to Bristol, I can have to leave at four o'clock, straight on the dock, get there, because they met half past six. It's like two hours. Oh wow. Yeah. So I went to my boss, my division officer, and asked him very nicely if he could grant me an afternoon's leave so I could travel to go and join later in my father's lodge. And he said, I'll put it on the proper bits of paper. We did all that. And it came back with a flat rejection.

SPEAKER_03 8:40

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 8:41

So that made me wonder a little bit. It didn't deter me because I just I jumped in the car and drove at the speed of it basically to get there.

SPEAKER_02 8:49

Yeah.

unknown 8:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:50

And I did it two more times for my second and my third degree as well in subsequence. I did the initiation was December 85. Yeah. Fellowcraft was November 86. And Master Mason was October 87.

SPEAKER_02 9:06

So that's a year in between. 11 months between each one. Between each one. And is that standard nowadays? Is that what they normally do or has that changed a bit?

SPEAKER_01 9:15

I did my third degree. The next time I set foot in that lodge building was November, sorry, October 2016, when I took my dad back there. And that's the first time I've been back in that lodge building since I did my third degree. And I went back then as the worshipful master of Avon Shirley. And it was last but one time I saw my dad in the lodge building. And I was sat in their building with dad, who they do a bit different to what we do here. All the visitors go in non-master to start with. And dad was on one side, me, and there was a gentleman on the other side who knew dad. I looked like I'd know that face, but I said nothing. And dad leant across and he said, uh, Norman, he said, uh, meet meet your nephew. Or brother Clive Fletcher. Really? And that was Dad's brother-in-law. So that was the last time I went to my own lodge building. Dad's brother there, Dad, two of Dad's cousins, and two of my friends from Street in Somerset where I was living at the top, oh where we'd lived before.

Why New Zealand Feels More Open

SPEAKER_02 10:20

It sounds like the the English, is it just the English that keep it very quiet? To my understanding, yeah, I'd say I'm not looked outside that jurisdiction. Would you say that New Zealand is that is what I mean, though. No?

SPEAKER_01 10:32

Much more open.

SPEAKER_03 10:33

Where do you think that is?

SPEAKER_01 10:35

I don't think you've got the baggage that the rest of it they can carry with 200 years before in Britain.

SPEAKER_02 10:40

Very good point. Perfect once we there is more history in England, I guess, and and over over there.

SPEAKER_01 10:48

1717, wasn't it? So it's 309 years now.

SPEAKER_02 10:53

Yep. We've got a I'd like to think that New Zealand is a progressive. I would have to agree with you. When I I visited England, there was a I went into the the Grand Lodge in Great Queen Street, and I was wearing a t-shirt. The t-shirt was quite it was quite vague but open. It was actually a square and compass that I had put on there anyway. And I was in the shop there and I was looking around and the guy behind the counter, after I'd finished looking through the lodge, he goes, Oh, you're American? I went, No, why? American? He goes, Yeah. I go, well, no, um, why do you say that? And he goes, Well, you're wearing a square and compass t-shirt and my sonic t-shirt. And I said, No, no, I'm from New Zealand. I said, Why did you think that? And he goes, Well, in New Zealand, or he goes, in America, they're very open.

SPEAKER_01 11:46

Fair statement. And I've done things in this country with Freemasonry I couldn't only dream of doing in Britain. To my understanding, they've done to the depth of things that Avon Shirley's got involved with, and the actual brethren got involved in in Britain. It was kind of dealt with at this level. You support it as a lodge member, but it's done at this level, above, and then above again. Right. We can go out into the community as Master Masons, palace masters, whatever rank you may hold, like the work we did with the car parking when we provided people for the car park with the girls' netball a few years ago. Yep. We would go out on the day and meet the public. That's right. I couldn't I can't think of anything in Britain that would ever have been done like that, that would have been allowed to go on and be so open about it. Wow. We were, yeah, we're ordinary human beings, we weren't dressed in regalia or anything, but we had the banners up and we were out promoting Freemasonry. Yeah, it it gave fun. It let us get out and meet different people, people we'd never meet before, we'll never meet in any other walk of life. And we did some good. We raised lots of money to hope it went to the right causes. Well, no, it went to the right causes and helped help people.

SPEAKER_02 12:57

Absolutely. And that's the thing. We need to, I think the public needs to know of the good that it that Freemasonry does do.

SPEAKER_01 13:04

But we we just genuinely want to be out there and help. If we didn't, we wouldn't join Masonry.

SPEAKER_02 13:08

Exactly. And so let's

Raising $15k For Cancer

SPEAKER_02 13:10

talk about your charity. So you're not a you're not a marketer, but you certainly have done a fair bit with regards to charity.

SPEAKER_01 13:17

I suggested to the lodge at one of our normal meetings that it might like to consider putting a sum of money up. Yeah. Which we did. And we went through the promote the channels both in our own uh Canterbury area through the Southern Division, right to Grand Lodge to the funding that was available to us up there. Yeah. And our sum total was just over $15,000 to the new cancer house that's been built up at Papua Nui, that's now operating. And they equipped uh beds, bedding, and some of the equipment in and around the kitchens and the recreational areas for the patients who are up there receiving treatment. We gave 15 or we were instrumental in raising 15 grand towards that.

SPEAKER_02 14:04

Oh, that's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 14:05

I was pleased with that.

SPEAKER_02 14:07

Yep, that is that is worthy. I know myself being in hospitals, they just don't get enough funding. They really don't. And that's amazing that we can we can put a hand up and say that we did that. Well, you did that. You single-handedly had I had the idea.

SPEAKER_01 14:23

We gave 500, and it's the easiest biggest return I've ever seen on investment to make 15,000 out of it. That's a less a year.

SPEAKER_02 14:30

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 14:30

Our financial investors can't get that for us.

SPEAKER_02 14:33

That is amazing. And so that's so you've done the net board, you've done the hospital. There's something else there. There's another one that you've also been promoting as well. Was there a prostate one as well? Because that's a that's another issue that men don't really like to talk about, but it's a massive thing.

SPEAKER_01 14:48

There was a meeting over in Brebleton, and Michael Wooding was district grandmaster, and he was presenting some funds to them. And I got talking with the cancer girls there. Yep. Then we went to the over 60s day that they hold as well, and I met the same people there who got chatting and said, look, if there's anything as a Freemason, I said, anything we can do to help you, you folks, let me know. I said, I can't promise, but I'll take the idea. And we ended and up again working with them to raise funds, and we put on that show at the Shirley Masonic Center.

SPEAKER_02 15:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:24

When the cancer people came in and gave us an evening's presentation. I don't know what we had, 60 people there. So it was folks there. We could have had more, we didn't. Doesn't matter if the people that were there took away something that was new to them, and hopefully they spread it around the community to that these people are here to help you. Go and you've got to don't be afraid of it. Get out there. Someone is going to get cancer of the prostate. Yep.

unknown 15:48

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 15:49

They need to know where to find things. It wasn't that wasn't a question of raising funds. I think that was raising awareness. Awareness, yep. But we had some great speakers, and if you read the press, you'll still see those speakers being mentioned today. Another one in mind as well now. They just came through the post, and you both should have seen it. The United Forces Lodge, one Saturday a month, they do the cooking at the City Mission. But the more people we can make aware of that, we can put a roster together and help out in the city mission.

SPEAKER_02 16:19

Well, I think that's a a really good cause, and I'll go on record and say that I would love to come along and help do that as well. Mike, what's your brother Patrick's your contact? Good. I'll send you the email. Brilliant. And so we, you know, we're even if we're doing it in the quiet, in the dark, and we're helping people, I think that is a brilliant thing to do.

SPEAKER_01 16:40

What more fundamental than they're putting a roof over their heads and they're feeding them as well?

SPEAKER_02 16:44

Amazing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:45

If you haven't got enough help, you volunteered any.

City Mission Cooking And Spud Challenge

SPEAKER_01 16:47

One that possibly could be resurrected, so to speak, would one I ran for most of Brother Marty Gherkin when he was district grandmaster with an interest in gardening, and so's he. Yeah. He came up with the proposal that the lodges should grow potatoes, spuds that we could then grow as a lodge. So 10 guys, one potato each. We supplied the lodge, the Mason supplied the spuds, so everyone got the same potato, same breed of potato. Ten people in a lodge or nine or eight, however, many people wanted to take part. But basically the idea was to grow as many spuds as possible to give over to the charities at Christmas. And there were prizes for biggest potato, smallest potato, greatest number. No, we didn't cook them. I had people in Dunedin growing spuds, mostly in cantory, however. But and what we did was get in touch with them. And I did all the running around, got the bags, got the spuds, did the paperwork, set the computer program up. And we basically sold potatoes, I think it was about a dollar each. And when they brought them back in from the weighing, we weighed them by say individual, and the gross amount from each lodge, ordered a few good prizes. And but we put the spuds together and handed them out to the needy at times of Christmas.

SPEAKER_02 18:06

What a great idea. Because it was good fun. You don't need a big garden for growing one potato. So I don't have a massive area. I could just grow it in a bag. 10 litre bucket and a bag. We actually gave them a bag to grow it in. Oh, you did? Yeah. Easy. So you could do is just put it in there and look at it every once in a while on yeah, huh? Yeah, and feed it, make it come out. Brilliant. What a great idea.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

It was great. We raised money and we raised a produce that we could give away. And we had a barbecue on the Saturday lunch, something Saturday afternoon, all everyone got together, families came in, kids were running around. And you know, masons were there, and we did the weighing. Sam was very instrumental in helping me with that. I can't remember. It was some guy from Oxford. Oxford. And the the lodge is now disbanded. He grew a colossal amount of spuds from one. Oh, so he did more than one. I thought no, yeah, one spud. One, but he got a huge amount off of that one potato. He had kilograms off of one seed potato. Oh gosh. I got about 800 grams, I think, something like that. And that was about the normal. Right. But he came in with a bag full. Wow. Take his word for it. He brought the bag in there. That's what he wouldn't tell us. He knew a bit more about gardening than he was letting on. Yeah, he was a old school. And he was good at what he did. Feeding him is important, but it also teaches kids about gardening.

SPEAKER_02 19:30

That is the yeah, that is a great thing. So that potatoes. Potatoes are not just those things that come in those McDonald's little packets. Yeah, yeah, yeah. French fries.

SPEAKER_01 19:43

Well, if they want some garden experience, bring them around home and give them 100 square meters to dig. That's right.

Listener Support And How To Message Us

SPEAKER_00 20:04

Listener support helps us cover the costs of producing each episode and allows us to give back to the community we all share. Every contribution, big or small, helps us keep the conversation alive and growing. If there is a topic you would like to see discussed, drop us an email at themasonicmic357 at gmail.com or simply send us a message via the send us a text link attached to every episode. Now, back to the conversation.

SPEAKER_02 20:36

You've

Staying Local Not Grand Lodge

SPEAKER_02 20:37

done a lot of charitable work. Have you looked at the progression in Grand Lodge?

SPEAKER_01 20:43

I've made the conscious decision not to go to Grand Lodge. Reasons are many and varied. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 20:50

And they're yours, I suppose. So that's and I'm not going to dictate, they're not going to indicate what they are. Yeah, no, that's fine.

SPEAKER_01 20:56

That's Masonry can be assured, as can April and Shirley Lodge, that I will be a member of that lodge as long as I can be. Excellent. And I want to take an active role in its ceremonies and it's whatever the charitable organ works it puts forward. I've got Alison's backing with that. I think she enjoys going to the ANZAC one meeting there. And there's a couple of other things we've been to as well. And it's I just like the camaraderie that Avon Shirley's got in particular. All lodges have got a camaraderie. It's a question of whether it fits with your scheme of things. And Avon Shirley Lodge, it was Avon Lodge when we first joined it. It's a bit of a long story, but we got an hour ago. We moved here in July 2004. We were in rented digs for a couple of weeks and got a car off from the company I was working for. One second Saturday would have been, wouldn't it? We took a drive round

Finding Avon Lodge And Quake Changes

SPEAKER_01 21:58

town. We didn't know where we're going. We're doing. We ended up going down Colombo and up the hill. And halfway up the hill on the left hand side is Masonic Lodge. We didn't know it was there. And I happened to be there out one day. There was a big sign on the front saying, Freemason's Lodge, all welcome to come down in. This is kind of prophetic, Ali. Let's go and have a look.

SPEAKER_04 22:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:19

Because I hadn't joined the lodge, so I'm going to be there two weeks. We wandered through the door and we met Worship Brother Wrigley as UN words, because he was the current master, who I'd been corresponding with before I left Britain, but I didn't know this was on. They didn't tell me about his own day. I walked into the then brother Wooding, who's now a past district grandmaster. Stan Brother, Worship Brother Stan Whitfield was there, who's no longer a Mason I know, but he's still a good friend of ours. And a couple of other guys. And we got talking about it. I was a Mason, yes. Did you join the road? No, not done. We looked around. Oh, this is about the first time because I was busy with work and trying to work, get me ahead around living in a new city and what's going on and what about it. And then I realized that this is the Avon watch. Now there I was born in Somerset. There's a River Avon that runs through Somerset.

SPEAKER_02 23:17

Really?

SPEAKER_01 23:18

And in the early to mid-70s, the actual county of Avon was born. Um whatever the politics was in local government, they had a county called Avon. I ended up living in Avon for a time. So you've got River Avon, Avon County, or Avon Province, as you would know that's in New Zealand. Right. And then I've got Avon Lodge. So I think Dictate said, we're gonna go. We're fated to go here. Yeah. That was the July. My papers were in in August, and I did my first meeting with them in the December 2004.

SPEAKER_02 23:55

Which was 19 years to the week that I joined May Street in Britain. Wow, so it was called the Avon Lodge, and it was and it met up on the Cashmere Hill. Okay, so I'm a relatively new member, and I know it as the Avon Shirley, and it meets in Shirley. So tell us a little bit about how that changed. Was it the earthquakes that happened and then it moved?

SPEAKER_01 24:23

Or yeah, the earthquakes were late 2010 and February 2011. Right. Um that rendered a lot of the buildings, the solid buildings and temples in Christchurch in capable of holding meetings. So the Cashbury one was affected, and we made it all moved out. The owners, the landlords, and the tenants had to find new places.

SPEAKER_02 24:45

Right.

SPEAKER_01 24:46

Um, Haven Lodge has always been a tenant lodge, it's never owned the same building. So we ended up New Brighton, and then we went to the old building in Shirley when New Brighton was declared unfit. You know, you'd have to go and check the correct way of doing this. But we ended up being in the old Shirley Lodge building, and the idea was to put them together. I can't remember what can't remember what happened. It was before the quake, so we moved out of the there was a merger.

SPEAKER_02 25:16

So there was a merger. Right. Because you're saying the Avon Lodge, and that was up on Cashmere Hills. Yeah. And I know it only as that Avon Shirley, so there must be some history there.

SPEAKER_01 25:26

Oh nine and ten, I think, was about the time that the merger came about. Alan McGill was master. Right, I believe. His first time around. Then Michael Wooding, that's right, and it was that was the Quakes that wrote off the building on the site where we're now, the old building. The old Shirley Lodge was written off and uninhabitable. Oh, that's the same site. Yeah. Oh, the 19 mid-20s building was there originally. Oh, right. Oh. We were Avon Shirley combined, as you say, the Avon Shirley number 185. The Quakes wrote that off, and that's when I got kicked out of the car out of Price Just because I knew where to live. Ali didn't have a job. We went up to Nelson to live for nine months. Wow. And then say the February Quakes took the building out. And that's, I think that's what actually speeded up getting rid of the old building because it was unsafe. It was old, it was drafty. Yep. And from that, you know, Ashes, Phoenix Rising kind of thing. We got a new building with 20 2013, 2014, it was consecrated. I know of no connection between other than the river Avon was in Bristol and ran through Bristol and Bath. It was fate to join the Avon Lodge. So that was it. There were three coincidences there. One, I'd been writing a corresponding with uh Worship Brother Wrigley as he was, as the master. I knew it was called Avon Lodge.

SPEAKER_03 26:50

And he forgot to tell you about the open day. Amazing.

SPEAKER_01 26:53

We just went on the off chance. We could have quite easily gone down the main south road and never seen it.

SPEAKER_03 26:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:59

Amazing. That's that's coincidence, and that's that was fate. Yeah. Yeah. And I've been subscriber ever since. And I say I will continue to do so, I think, as long as I got breath in

Mastering The Chair And Leading Well

SPEAKER_01 27:10

my body.

SPEAKER_02 27:10

I don't see any reason why not to. And so you've been master of that lodge more than once? Three times. You have, haven't you?

SPEAKER_01 27:18

I did a two-year spell. Yes. Uh 15, 16, then 16 through to 17. And then it was 23, 24, I think. It must have been because I was in a boot because I just had my knee replaced. That's right, I recall that. So it'd have been September 23 when I was installed as the master again. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 27:37

Do you like the job? It's a blunt question.

SPEAKER_01 27:41

I loved it to start with, but for the third time around, it became a bit of a chore.

unknown 27:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:47

If I'm honest with you. Yep. You've got to have a fresh mind on it, I think. I take my out of these guys who've done four or five, Bob Wright, I think he's done nine times various lodges and that. If you're doing a different lodge, perhaps that's okay. I want to see you as a master at two years' time.

SPEAKER_03 28:05

And the reason I I do ask you about whether you liked the job and stuff, because it is looming on me. I'm a I'm junior warden at the moment, and we know our senior warden will be a first time for him. And so, yeah, I'm really trying to understand what do we need, a plan going ahead?

SPEAKER_01 28:24

You should start thinking now.

SPEAKER_03 28:26

Exactly, my point. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:27

You've got a lot of work as a junior warden, but when you get to the senior's chair, got a bit of a lighter workload, but while you're junior, start looking around and understand what the master does. Is your relationship as a master is very important with your secretary and to a lesser extent the treasurer, because you've got to keep the funds in order, obviously. Brush up on skills I wish I'd brushed up on, which is how to chair a meeting, how to take charge, how to control a meeting. We're lucky with Masonry, we do tend to defer to the chair. We don't tend to have lays and rows like parliamentarians. But you've you've got to get that confidence in you before. Because once you're sitting in that chair, you can't you haven't got time to learn it. So your first time when you're placed in the chair, you've been at an installation and seen the new master in, you're quaking in the boots. I can tell you.

SPEAKER_03 29:19

Oh, I will be regardless, I think. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:21

But you'll you'll get your skills, but work with your your secretary, particularly your two wardens as your senior officers.

SPEAKER_03 29:30

Great advice.

SPEAKER_01 29:31

And be accepting of advice, even if it doesn't sound right to you, be accepting of it because it's probably gonna come from a more senior individual. No matter if it doesn't seem uh very pleasant at the time, let's use those words, it's the right thing to do. Okay, no one's gonna give you a bad stare on what you should be doing as a master. And the the basic one is don't be afraid to ask questions. If you're unsure, ask a question. Always a senior man behind you who is there to willing, they are willing to help you.

SPEAKER_03 30:06

That's encouraging.

SPEAKER_01 30:08

You you won't have that, and don't be afraid of going outside your own lodge. If you've got a relationship with a a Mason from another lodge, hey, come and have a beer, come and have a coffee. I've got this question for you. Pick his brains up.

SPEAKER_02 30:21

Do you think that there's any other institution or any other experience assisting you to betty yourself? Would you get that in the military?

SPEAKER_01 30:30

I don't think so to the extent you get it in the masonry. You get the camaraderie in the military, but they're you you do your job and you're dependent on others around you, but they're also dependent on you, don't forget. But that's a career, that's a vocation. Masonry is a volunteer thing. No one forces us to be there. If we don't like it, we can walk away. Yeah, the military don't forget it's a disciplined service, as you well know from your background. It's a disciplined service, and it's the question say not jump, it's like how high do I jump, sir? Right. But in Masonry, it's more of a is the word platonic the right word to use there? Perhaps friendlier? Friendlier is friendliers, yeah. It's not a you've got things to do and you've got to do it right. But the bottom line is you do it to your best of your ability.

SPEAKER_02 31:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:17

I mean, if you don't get the words exactly right, hey, the meaning's still conveyed, and no one's gonna pillow you for time over, time immemorial until they you can not gonna say keep on reminding you of the mistake. But I can think of a few times in the military where I and others got it wrong. It wasn't particularly the senior rates who were teaching you it got it wrong. It was the officer who was the big boss picked up on it, and he didn't let you forget it. There's no point in that. There's no there's no none of that in masonry, but be assured, Dan. When you there, you'll make mistakes. Make no doubt about it.

SPEAKER_02 31:57

Yeah, no one's perfect like me. No one. Even my math. Brilliant at mathematics. I love numbers, they just don't love me. You can't add two things together, or I understood earlier on.

SPEAKER_01 32:11

No, and so I like math though. I good, I prefer math to English. Well, you do? Yeah. I'm an engineer. Oh, right. I'm a marine engineer.

SPEAKER_02 32:18

Yeah. And so you said you said a key word there that all of our listeners would have picked up on, and that would have been artificer. Artificer? That's correct.

SPEAKER_01 32:28

Artificer, not articifer. What is an artificer? Yes. Skilled technician in the armed forces. That's one of the I believe the day we use it in masonry. We do. We absolutely do.

SPEAKER_03 32:40

We do.

SPEAKER_01 32:41

Artificer in metals.

SPEAKER_03 32:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 32:43

Also marine engineer. Your biggest thing you work with is metal.

SPEAKER_02 32:47

Right.

SPEAKER_01 32:48

Think of that engines, transmission. Yes, of course. Right. Cables.

SPEAKER_02 32:52

Yeah. Oh, so you're really good with numbers then?

SPEAKER_01 32:55

I've got a degree in mechanical engineering, yes.

SPEAKER_03 32:58

Which involved quite a lot of numbers. By the sounds of things, he's really good with numbers underwater.

SPEAKER_01 33:03

One or two. One or two.

SPEAKER_02 33:05

I did 12 years of the forces, that was enough. The fun went out of it, and it was time to get out. And so, okay. And what would have been the highlight?

Artificer Life And Masonic Highlights

SPEAKER_02 33:13

If you could single out one Masonic highlight, would it have been perhaps the initiation? Second, third, in the chair, any other event? What would be the single most proudest moment of your free Masonic? I want to do two highlights. Yep, you can.

SPEAKER_01 33:35

One would be the first time I gave a charge off the floor. Right. Because the tools in the third degree in my second lodge I joined in England when I was living in Midsomerset in town called Glastonbury. The lodge I belonged to there. I started working through the chairs there. And the first charge I ever did was the tools in the third degree. What is a charge? Oh, it's uh speech. Uh it's a speech, it's ritual, it's a means is conveying a story to somebody. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:08

It's instruction in a way. A lesson? It's an allegory.

SPEAKER_01 34:10

It's an allegory, certainly. Right.

SPEAKER_02 34:12

Okay. So you that would have been one. So you'd a third degree, was it? A third degree? First charge, yeah, was the tools of the third degree. Tools of the third degree. And you did that, you learned it all, and then you just delivered it. Yeah. And that would have been the highlight.

SPEAKER_01 34:27

So do you that was the first highlight. I don't count my initiation because I can't remember much about it. Okay. It was a pat it was a a very salient point. Yep. But the first highlight is when you're on the floor for the first time.

SPEAKER_03 34:43

With purpose.

SPEAKER_01 34:44

But someone's actually, you were telling somebody something, you're instructing somebody face to face.

SPEAKER_02 34:49

Ah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:50

Yep. That was the highlight, and that remained the highlight until such time as I was installed in the master for the first time. That would be the highlight of my how did it feel for you?

SPEAKER_03 35:01

Do you do you remember if if such a highlight, how did you first time or second? First time.

SPEAKER_01 35:07

Euphoria. Wow. Because you've got people listening who've done it all in the past. They are judging you, even though we're told not to judge too harshly. But they are judging you. When they come to you after say, well done your first time, that wasn't a bad effort. You know you've achieved something that you feel good about.

SPEAKER_03 35:29

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 35:30

So when you do your first obligation as a master, be it first, second, or a third degree, that is a big thing to get through because you've got a lot of work. Oh god, jeez. And the down the downside of that is from my perspective, is that I prefer to talk through talk to you as a person without you coming back to me. When you've got to do it as a master with an obligation, the candidate has to repeat. Repeat everything after you. And given that Abe and Shirley have got guys from five continents of the earth who don't have English as their first language, they're very thickly accented, and even from the North Island. So it's difficult sometimes to pick up where your speech, the next bit you've got to put.

SPEAKER_03 36:13

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 36:14

So that I can't remember, I think it was the second degree, I think was my first obligation I did, which could have been would have been the November of 15, wasn't it? My first one. So yeah, November 15 would have been my first obligation as a matter of fact. I don't know what I did through the two years, I did two or three of each degree. And more than that on some of them.

SPEAKER_02 36:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:36

But it got e it does get easier.

SPEAKER_02 36:41

We did have Bob on, and he was talking about other side orders. Is that anything that you are that you are in or have thought about or not interested in, interested in, or is there anything interesting little story on

Saying No To Side Orders

SPEAKER_02 36:59

that?

SPEAKER_01 36:59

My father and I didn't always see eye to eye. Most parents, I think, have that trouble with their firstborn. He taught me he told me three things that stick in my mind. Firstly, let's get your education. Secondly, kind of trade. So as part of that third one, this is where Masonry comes in. It yes, I joined, and I knew of a few side orders because when you look around you, you can just read different things in your loan in your own lodge room because there's other orders meet there. And I'd known that dad was not just doing one, two nights a month. Now we're now three or four nights a month. He was going out, and there are a lot more people come into the house to meet with him, to go into the spare room, and go and have a sip of channel when we're taking coffee and cakes and then leave him to uh yakin on for maybe two hours at a time. It's got to be more than one lodge dad. It's good to meet involved in so many different people coming in asking his advice. They weren't asking his advice because he was the master. He was master of two cyber degrees. And I I know one was Mark Master, and I don't know. Uh the other one was uh Rosa Crucians in Anglia. Yeah. Oh really? S R I A. Yeah. And I approached him one day about it. And he's his words were basic. He said, Don't do anything other than the blue degree. He said, give everything to the blue degree and then stop. And I said, why? He said, because the other side you would not fit with the other side degrees, he said. Okay. That is the one I took notice of, and I've never done it. And I've promised myself I will stay and give 100% of the Blue Lodge and Active, not the Grand Lodge side of it. And I've never approached I've been approached by people you both know. Yeah. Never in Britain, certainly, but here I've been approached. Oh, it'd be good for you. Yeah, you do. I said, no, I haven't got really I I struggle sometime to find the time to dedicate to Freemasonry if I've got other things to do.

SPEAKER_02 39:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:04

Still I'm retired, the hours seem to just pile up on you. So I made the choice I'm gonna stick with the Blue Lodge only. I'll do my ritual from our book for my lodge. I've given charges for other lodges when I was master, been asked to do charges. Yep. And I'm quite happy to do that to help them out. But I'm not gonna go to any side degree. I'm not gonna do Grand Lodge.

SPEAKER_02 39:29

Fair enough.

SPEAKER_01 39:29

If I'm comfy where I am in my own skin, I can justify to myself what I've done. Yep. And that's what I feel happy with it. I can just hope to be a better person, better Mason, and help others to get more out of their masonry. I don't want to dilute what I've got, basically. Um I'd rather be it's like gardening. I'd rather go five kilograms of good vegetables than ten kilograms of rubbish, crap. Yep, yeah, compost. And it's yeah, you put all your effort in to get a good result out, you feel better about it. You hopefully brought those around you up a bit and enhanced their understanding, their their life, whatever you want to call it, whatever way you want to take that enhancement, you take from it what you will. But if I've helped someone on that way, then that's that's okay by me.

Final Thanks And Stay Connected

SPEAKER_03 40:23

Well, Clive, I'm quite mindful of your time. We've had a really good chat with you so far. This will be a really good podcast going on.

SPEAKER_02 40:30

Pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 40:31

Thank you, Dan. Thank you, Ruben. Thank you very much for being on. Thanks for listening to the Masonic mic. The views expressed by our hosts and guests are their own and don't necessarily reflect those of Grand Lodge or any affiliated body. Before you go, be sure to download the Masonica app to stay connected and support the show for more Masonic resources, blogs, and podcasts. Remember to subscribe, like and share, and until next time, stay square.