Ep. 133: The Courage to Live - Lessons From The Michigan Synagogue Shooting

Josh and Jenna break down the recent synagogue attack in Michigan and use it to highlight real-world lessons for businesses, schools, and places of worship. From armed security and physical safeguards to communication and planning, this episode focuses on what actually prevents incidents from getting worse. It’s a practical conversation about preparing before a crisis, not reacting during one, and why small decisions ahead of time can save lives. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:10

Welcome to the Courage to Live podcast. My name is Josh Pitsko and I'm a retired police captain with 24 years of experience out of Las Vegas. Currently I travel the country and I teach people about courage, resilience, and leadership. Joined by my wife and co-host Jenna.

SPEAKER_00 0:24

Hi.

SPEAKER_01 0:25

And before you get into the podcast, uh actually yesterday was opening day of baseball. But I think it was just like the Giants and the Yankees, so nobody really cares. Um both teams that the Dodgers have beaten recently. So that's why I'm wearing my Dodgers shirt. And you just sent me a it was like an ad for the Dodgers. Like they did a, you know, the world winning the World Series, and the whole thing is like it's fun to cheer for the bad guy. Yeah. Because you know, they're the evil empire of baseball right now.

SPEAKER_00 0:53

Which I thought was really clever, actually. And I think it's gonna really make people upset.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

Which I I love.

SPEAKER_00 1:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02

And I mean, I think people forget the Dodgers had ever since 2020. Before that, it was 1988 the last time they won a World Series. So I mean they've been every year it has been a rebuilding year. So I'm gonna enjoy it while we're here.

SPEAKER_02 1:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:13

Because you remember when we first got together, how when it when it came to the Dodgers, I was just like, uh, I just was a terrible fan.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

Yeah. And when we got together, the Warriors were winning, and now we're in some rebuilding years.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

Literally everyone is hurt. Is it a rebuilding year when you don't have any young players? It just seems like it's a dictator.

SPEAKER_00 1:31

It excuses me that we we do. And his name, we have a lot of young players, but one just got injured a couple nights ago, Moses Moody, who's 23. I'll give you that he doesn't look 23. He looks a little bit older than that, but he tore his patella tendons, right? That was really disgusting.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

It was pretty gnarly looking. I felt bad because he was having a great game.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

He's having a great year.

SPEAKER_01 1:54

Um, I think we should start a sports podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:57

Nobody wants to hear what we have to say about sports.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

Good point.

SPEAKER_00 2:01

You're a Dodgers fan, nobody wants to hear it.

SPEAKER_01 2:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:04

Except other Dodgers fans. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

And so, you know, maybe we do that's just our audience. Um, but anyway, and back on the rebuilding year for the Warriors, I think you need like a young star. You have some young talent, but you don't have like a young star.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

Like a I know, because our flag or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 2:22

Because our star Steph, who I love and will always love, you know, he's getting he's getting up there in years and injured a lot.

SPEAKER_01 2:30

So what I would say is probably next year, the year after will be the rebuilding year. This is just the decaying years.

SPEAKER_00 2:38

Anyways, we love them, we love them.

SPEAKER_01 2:39

Yeah, yeah. They're all right. Okay. Um, so in today's podcast, um, we're gonna talk about the recent um active shooter incident at the synagogue. Um Jenna's gonna kind of go through the details and then we're gonna talk about, you know, just based on what is initially out there, uh, some of the lessons learned and really what you know takeaways, if you're a business or a church, what you can do to prepare for something like that. And then also, you know, touch on what we always do, law enforcement officers, how to prepare yourself mentally for responding to something like that.

SPEAKER_00 3:18

So this happened on March 12th of this year, so just a couple weeks ago in Bloomfield Township, Michigan, at Temple Israel. And which oddly enough, the second that I heard about this, I thought, oh, this is a copycat of what happened with the church shooting in Michigan.

SPEAKER_01 3:38

The LDS church, right?

SPEAKER_00 3:39

The LDS church. That was was that last year?

SPEAKER_01 3:42

I think it was earlier this year. No.

SPEAKER_00 3:46

Probably should have looked that up. Yeah. I think it was last year. Um anyways, and this this one was very similar to that. A man drove a vehicle into the synagogue building and entered while people were inside, including children. He fired a weapon inside the building, and armed security engaged the attacker and ended up killing him. A fire broke out linked to materials in the vehicle causing smoke inside the building. So that's really the gist of it and all the information that we have at this time. We know that um a security guard was injured and struck by the vehicle. Multiple individuals were treated for smoke inhalation, no congregants or children were killed, and FBI is investigating, and they are describing it as an attack of violence against the Jewish community. Oh, and the suspect had ties to Lebanon, but he was a U.S. citizen. And the motive is possible grievances and broader geopolitical tensions, but that's still under investigation.

SPEAKER_01 4:57

Well, and there was just recently an active shooter on 6th Street in Austin. And I think that was not targeted necessarily towards the Jewish community, but the initial reports was inspired by what's going on in Iran. So just something always to be aware of is the geop geopolitical um, you know, scene really can impact not just the you know locations of these, you know, active assailants, but you know, the intent, why they're doing it, uh, and which can also change tactics, right? I mean, this one was very similar to the LDS shooting in Michigan because they both involved a vehicle used as used as a weapon at the and the initial and a church. And a church. Um, and uh they were both grievances towards that church or a religion. So, I mean, there are some commonalities there, but just something to be aware of is that it's good to have an understanding of what's going on, especially if you're in law enforcement or you know, security, and you have to have your your responsibility is to protect innocent people, uh, like a church or a school. It's good to have an idea of what's going on around the country and around the world, uh, because that can really just change maybe even minute details of what you're looking for. And so a couple unconfirmed, and this was me talking to people in that community. Um, initial reports that he was shot by security. Then was one of the reports is when he was engaged by security, he shot himself. Um, which, you know, we know, and I say it all the time when I'm teaching about this this stuff is, you know, generally it's one of three things. The suspect gives up, um, suspect is killed by police or armed security or armed citizen, uh, or the suspect takes their own life. And most of those, if not all the time, are precipitated by some sort of armed response, be it security or police engaging the suspect, which is why, you know, we talk about the response and making quick decisions and making as corrective decisions as you can given the information you have and the chaos going on around you, um, is so important. And you know, there's a couple of things that went really well on this.

SPEAKER_00 7:03

Um, another unit's again, this was unconfirmed, but what I was told that this was speaking to people who are involved in the security of these Jewish synagogues specifically.

SPEAKER_01 7:13

Correct. And it was actually showing me some pictures of the scene. And that a uh the suspect actually drove the vehicle in the church and was driving basically down a hallway um when he was engaged while in his vehicle by the armed security officers. And had he not been engaged, had he been able to continue driving uh down that hallway and got into like crashed into the like the back of the building, there was 120 kids in a classroom in the back where he could, you know, he was on that path. And you know, we we've seen a couple of these recent ones where they do like we talked about, I just talked about in this is that using a vehicle as a weapon.

unknown 7:52

Right.

SPEAKER_01 7:52

And that's that's nothing new. There's you know, that that's happened in New Orleans, right?

SPEAKER_00 7:57

New Year's.

SPEAKER_01 7:58

Yep. And you know, you look at like when I was when I was over the Las Vegas Strip, that was always a concern of mine because yes, we have bollards, and we'll talk about uh ballards and what they they do for especially for businesses like this or churches or schools um to stop vehicles as a weapon. But I mean, drive down the strip and see how many people are in a crosswalk at any given time. And you can't put ballards on a crosswalk, right? They have some of some, they have the elevated walkways uh where you know you're not down on the street, but you know, you get other places on the strip there are crosswalks. And so vehicle being used as a weapon is a very big concern anytime you have pedestrian traffic or large outdoor areas. Um but there are some things that you know you can do as a business or a church or a school, uh to at least environmentally to prepare for something like this. And then there's you know, from data collection, reporting, and other things. And I figure we can break some of those things down right now for you know those that are listening. And, you know, if you are responsible for you know large groups of people, the security of large groups of people, um, if you're not all ready doing, then maybe you can start doing. And the first one, which they did, is having armed security. And I can tell you, I can't tell you how many times I've talked to you know, businesses or schools or churches, like, you know, we just don't like the optics of having an armed security guard in front. Well, the reality is, is as society changes and the threat landscape changes, we have to change how we um secure people, how we keep people safe. I mean, look at you know air travel before 9-11, right? Going through security, how drastically different it is because of 9-11. And then a couple other ancillary incidents, like you had the you know, guy with the bomb in his shoe, which is now why we take off our shoes and you know, different we don't have to do that anymore. Well, we don't actually you do, I do because I literally for some reason, I don't know if I have too much iron in my blood or what, I set off the scanner every time and I have to get patted down and take my shoes off. Literally, I I warn them too. I'm like, just let you know I set off the scanner.

SPEAKER_00 10:09

Remember a few weeks ago when I was wearing sandals? Because I was like, oh, we don't have to take off our shoes anymore. So I'm wearing sandals and they told me the sandals were too thick, so I had to take them off, and I didn't have socks with me, and my blood was boiling at a 12 over 10. I cannot tell you something more gross than walking through freaking security in bare feet. Try not to swear because I know kids listen to this podcast. Why I don't know, but anyways, so walking through bare feet, then I'm on the tram spraying my feet with um bacteria antibacterial spray. So, anyways, all that to say I now keep socks in my bag, but keep going about um security and why that's important.

SPEAKER_01 11:03

But can you imagine how many people before you walked barefooted through that went through that security line is basically?

SPEAKER_00 11:08

Well, I that's why I was at a 12 out of 10.

SPEAKER_01 11:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:10

I could have got MRSA.

SPEAKER_01 11:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:13

Well, most of them had shoes on, so it was just whatever they walked in getting out there.

SPEAKER_00 11:16

So the shitty ass bath oh, sorry. The crappy bathrooms.

SPEAKER_01 11:22

Um yeah, the bathroom or you know, the people that didn't wear thick sandals. They're gonna have to take them off.

SPEAKER_00 11:27

Oh, never again.

SPEAKER_01 11:28

Yeah. So anyway, we digress. Um, the the air, you know, air travel has changed since 9-11, right? Um look at outdoor venues since the one October shooting, how that has changed, you know, the checking rooftops around and drones deployed and checking, you know, you can't hang a do not disturb sign on a room pretty much anywhere in the country anymore, and have people not come into your room. Like all of these things have changed. So, you know, it it is a balance between overprotecting and having, you know, you don't want an arm swap team in front of a church or something like that, but you know, having a visual deterrent, first off, and somebody that can respond. I was talking to a local church here about that. This was after the Michigan the or the LDS church shooting. Like, well, we have a lot of uh off-duty police officers that go to our church that, you know, and the expectation is that they're gonna be there, act and get involved. And, you know, it's a it's a mixed bag. Not just I'm not just saying that, oh, whether they're able to handle it or not. That's a whole nother discussion, but whether they have even take a gun with them. And then you have they have no armor, they have no radio, they have no anything else, but you know, maybe a gun. And what are they carrying? Is it a like a five-shot revolver? Like, and you so you have a suspect comes in with a rifle and explosives and crashing a car into it, and I have you know, my little peace shooter rifle or pea shooter revolver that I'm gonna engage him with, like so.

SPEAKER_00 13:02

But also for me, the the optics thing, it doesn't make sense to me because as a church goer, I I want those optics. I want people to see and think twice about attacking. I I don't know. I I've never understood that.

SPEAKER_01 13:20

No, I I agree. Um, I think that is a antiquated way of thinking. Like, oh, you know, we just want people to feel safe. Well, they're gonna feel safe, especially, you know, go home and turn on the news and see what's happening around the country. Um, but so that was usually why the that and then also cost, right? It comes down to a cost. And I know a lot of uh especially the synagogues, they just hire special events officers or overtime officers, which if you have because it's cheaper than hiring a full-time person, you know, uh having an employee and benefits and everything that comes with hiring a security officer to be there all the time, right? Um, if you just have somebody there when chur when church or mass is in session. So but I uh so I think a lot of them do that, but a lot of them don't have anything. There's no visual, you know, deterrent.

SPEAKER_00 14:09

Well, and it also feels like because we tried to talk to some churches after the Michigan, the LDS um attack, and it just it feels like there's not a lot of interest in it, in you know, securing and I I'm not sure what that is about either. Yeah, no, we offered our services for free.

SPEAKER_01 14:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:38

And no one has taken us up on that.

SPEAKER_01 14:40

Yeah. So but then we have other businesses and places around the country that are paying for our services. So it's just it is it comes down to culture of the business, culture of the church, and you know, that that is ultimately what it comes down to. And also, you know, a relationship with your local police department because they have, you know, experts or specialists that could also come out and look. Like and so you have the I'd say the first one in this one that they had armed security there.

SPEAKER_00 15:05

And that I I that's I that's what's to me in all the things that we read about this is what stopped it, was having that in place is what prevented it from going farther.

SPEAKER_01 15:18

What stops a bad guy with a gun? Good guy with a gun. So I think that you know, that is that would be the number one, right, for anywhere. Um, it's it's twofold is having somebody that has the ability to engage if something's happening and also a visual deterrent.

SPEAKER_00 15:34

Yes. And kudos to that security officer. If if security indeed well, they did engage the suspect, it's just a debate on if they killed him or he killed himself, right? So, but just having the courage to engage him, like that's fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 15:51

Well, yeah, and regardless of whether he he shot himself or the security officer shot him, it was the actions of the security officer or officers that engaged him that saved how many lives?

SPEAKER_02 16:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:01

And so that's not a testament to that hiring an armed security. And listen, you can I I believe I'm a believer of having him like in in uniform. We were just we were at our um Sun's flag football tournament and went and got coffee, and there was a you know armed security officer that was all tacked out in front in front of a coffee shop and we went to get coffee. And we're like, Oh, what's he doing standing out there? I'm like, it's a visual deterrent. He's a big guy. And I mean, I oftentimes I see him and they don't they have like the baton holder with no baton or an empty holster or whatever. He had it done. Yeah. Oh no, he did. It wasn't a great neighborhood. Um, but you know, having that, it's a visual deterrent. We we saw it pulling in there, like, well, you know, they have they actually have somebody there. Uh it was for the whole complex, not just the coffee shop, but um, just again, that's a testament to that works on different levels. Um, but you they don't have to, if you want somebody that can engage, but you don't want that, you know, visual, you can have somebody in a suit.

SPEAKER_02 16:56

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 16:56

And you know, I know casinos on the strip, they have security that is unarmed, and then they have security that's armed in a suit and they have a lapel pin, which doesn't it's not like a gun, it just isn't like the company, but that's usually an indicator or could be an indicator that a person's armed. And so just uh, you know, something to think about. Um, so that's you know, our number one. But then there's environmental or you know, structural changes that you can do. And you know, there's churches here in town that you know that we we've been to or seen, and there's like doors on literally all four sides of the church, and none of them are locked. So, you know, again, you don't have to lock it down like Fort Knox, but having a single point of entry, you know, can yes, can people get out at the end of the, you know, end of end of uh mass or you know, the services is easy. No. But again, there's there's these small give and takes that you have to do to make sure that people are safe. Um, so you know, and and it it's how much you want to spend, can spend, you spend, you can have electronic doors, um, things that, you know, again, the doors automatically lock, but you can also unlock them. They have there's companies that can you can do it all from an app now. It's a lot more easier integrated than needing an actual like command center or you know, security operations center or something like that. But having you know, access, having surveillance, like videos, and the surveillance can be a visual deterrent, but not generally. Um, but what it can do is especially if you have access to it, that if something is happening or going on, you can show in real time to the first responders, like you know, that's good intelligence to have. Um, you know, and it all comes down to hardening your target or being a harder target, uh, because they generally pick soft targets for this. That's why it happens at schools and malls and churches, because you know, it's you know, are people that generally do this honestly are just cowards, right? You know, they have a grievance with uh government, but I'm gonna take it out on a church or a school because you know they know there's generally not somebody armed there, and they can go and kill a lot of people and make headlines. And that's the political side, but even the you know, just the whether we call it mental illness or evil people that do active shooter incidents, it's they pick the places that they know they're gonna be able to kill as many innocent people and there's not somebody armed there.

unknown 19:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:15

And it the same thing goes for, you know, locking doors. Um, you know, the these last two that we've talked about where a vehicle was used as a weapon, and what you can do to prevent that is bollards. And what a bollard is, is like a metal or concrete, you know, pole that goes in the ground to keep a car from driving into the building. And I think people again, oh my gosh, that looks terrible. But you know, a perfect example is look at Target. You know, what do you think those big concrete spheres are in front of Target? They don't really look like anything, but they're there and heavy, so people can't drive right into the building.

SPEAKER_00 19:51

I did not know that until you just said that. My kids always, when they were little, wanted to climb on top of them and have me take their picture. Yeah, but I just thought they were decorative.

SPEAKER_01 20:02

Yeah. Well, that's but they're concrete and giant, and yeah, so people can't drive in. And you you now you'll start noticing in a lot of businesses and these big you know, national businesses have those in front. Something like that. It's all to prevent people from driving into the building, especially in those like glass doors. Doesn't mean you can't crash into like concrete and all that, but generally that's gonna stop a vehicle anyway, um, do damage, or like at the uh LDS church, pull people out. So, you know, something to think about. But yeah, stopping a vehicle from going in. Because imagine a vehicle getting through those glass doors at Target, driving through Target, how many people could get hurt or killed. Right. Um, you know, a lot of you know, tourist destinations, you drive down the street, there's ballards all down the street.

SPEAKER_00 20:38

They they don't have they do have those on the strip.

SPEAKER_01 20:41

Oh, yeah, and the entire the entire strip.

SPEAKER_00 20:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:43

Um, and so you know, that another thing for a business, and do you don't necessarily need them 360, just on doors where someone could get through or entry points where a vehicle could get through. And there's companies that do it that can come out and tell you, hey, there, this is where you need to put these. Um, but again, it's like we can hold out and say, Well, I, you know, we don't, it's a a a low chance it's gonna happen here, or um, I we just don't like the optics of it. We want people to feel safe.

SPEAKER_00 21:11

Yeah, but you or wait for, you know, there's people, well, then gun control, and we're not gonna get into that uh because it's not a political podcast. But the reality is that this is this is where we're at right now, and thing these are things that you can do right now. So you can wait for gun control, you can wait for oh, the the chance of this happening is low, or you can do something about it and take active measures to prevent you, your congregation, and the children inside.

SPEAKER_01 21:46

And I say this all the time. I've said this like as a leader, probably since I was a baby sergeant. It's like, uh, you gotta live in live in the world you live in, not the world you want it to be. Like it'd be great to not have to worry about these things, but unfortunately we do.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

And um and we're and we are always going to have to.

SPEAKER_01 22:04

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 22:05

Like there is no way around that. It doesn't matter what side of the political argument you're on, the reality is we will always have to worry about this. So we can there are things we can do to help mitigate.

SPEAKER_01 22:20

Absolutely. And keep people safe. And what I hear from businesses and all the time is like, especially from like the security apparatus of business businesses, yo, well, the company itself doesn't invest in security because they don't bring money in. Like it's like we don't invest in security because they're we would rather invest in marketing or these things that make generate revenue. Uh but you have to think about but what's the revenue lost if you didn't do what you had to do? And a bunch of people died on property and now you're getting sued and all of that, and the negative publicity and everything.

SPEAKER_00 22:53

So when these are seemingly uh easy fixes. Yes, yes, they cost money, but these are seemingly I say easy, but easy to to do to ensure safety and to ensure the public knows that you're doing everything that you can to keep them safe. Oh, one other thing I wanted to talk about that when we were talking about this podcast earlier was you know churches, synagogues. I'm specifically referring to places in smaller towns. Um we were talking about, you know, if you have suspicious activity or there is somebody threatening your church, yes, absolutely call the police so that that's documented, but also keep a log of it yourself. Keep a log of the suspicious activity, what you saw, um identifiers, if it's somebody coming into your church. And yes, call the police so that there's something on record of it, but also keep that for yourself so that if something happens or you know it's the same person over and over again, you have record of it of it yourself. Um, we were just talking about how, you know, there is in bigger cities, there's the resources to have like, you know, counterterrorism units and all these things that can help keep track of that suspicious activity. But if you're in a smaller place and your police department doesn't have those resources, it's important for you as a church, as a school, whatever, to yes, always call the police, yes, always document it, but it in that way, but also keep that documentation for yourself so that you can also show, hey, this is what's been going on, we've kept record of it. It was just another idea that we thought of to help with a little bit more of the target hard target hardening, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 25:10

But well, just yeah, record keeping. And so you can the next time you have to call the police and you get a different patrol officer. Because like you mentioned, yeah, you know, New York, Miami, Vegas, LA, Vegas, they have the resources, counterterrorism, fusion centers, and all of that. But this problem isn't a big city problem, it's a nationwide problem. In fact, you know, yes, I'm sure if I really thought about it, I can name uh other than obviously the ones I've been involved in, some active shooters in big cities. But a lot of times you hear, you know, small towns, small cities, because it is across the board. It can happen anywhere. So you may may be a church and a city that or a town that doesn't have all of those resources on the police department. So you call it in and you make it just a different patrol officer that responds.

SPEAKER_00 26:02

And sometimes you don't have analysts or detectives, or they're overburdened to connect the dots that need to be connected. So if you're keeping a log yourself, you're able to then give that to the police or connect the dots yourself to then give to them and say, hey, this is what we've seen, this is what's going on, and that will help immensely.

SPEAKER_01 26:26

Yeah. Yeah, because when somebody shows up, they'll take it more seriously. On this day, this person did this. On this day, we got an email saying this or a phone call or threats, and you have a package. It just it it lends to what we do for the business as far as tabletops, is is you know, a tabletop getting all the people in the room and preparing for a tactical response, but it's preparing for this stuff before it happens. Yes. Right? Oh, what are we gonna do if somebody shows up and makes a threat or spray paints, you know, uh anti-Semitic phrase on the side of the church? And that, but now if you have it all together when an officer shows up, it's it helps them do what they need to do. And you know, I it's funny, I was just on the phone yesterday with somebody from South Dakota, and we were talking about the policing there. He's like, There's counties that have one sheriff, not meaning one sheriff, and he has uh deputies that work for him. No, it's one sheriff for the entire county, yeah. And he has to rely on like state police to back him up and other jurisdictions. Uh, but yeah, one sheriff. So you're helping them out by providing them with the details and all of that. Like, but it was a really good point. But it's preparing before it's preparing before these ever happen and getting everybody in the room so you know what's gonna happen when these things uh pop off. And then there's the tactical side, obviously, like preparing, you know, okay, this is happening at our church. We have armed security that's engaging, but who's gonna call 911? What are we gonna tell them? What's what information are we providing? Are we gonna shelter in place? Are we gonna evacuate? Figuring all of this out before you need it. Because in the chaos, it's so much harder. It's gonna be hard even if you're prepared, but it won't be impossible. It won't be this, you know, mountain that you can't climb because you're prepared for it.

SPEAKER_00 28:24

Well, and we do both of those things. So if you work at a church or a school and you feel like you need some help with uh tabletops, getting everybody in the room to plan or prepare for something like this, um, or even live exercises, which is a live scenario with public safety partners, people that work at the church or the school, city officials, all of that getting together and working through if an active shooter, if an active threat were to happen, here's what let's see what we would do in that chaos, and then let's learn from it. Exactly.

unknown 29:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 29:07

Well, thank you for listening today. Um, if you like the podcast, please share it with the friends, subscribe, leave a review. Uh, and some of the things that I've taught we've talked about today is in my book, The Courage to Live, which is available on Amazon. And I appreciate you spending time with us today.