Ep. 136: The Courage to Live - Trust Your First Instinct

In this episode, Josh and Jenna explore a common human tendency: talking yourself out of what you know is happening in front of you. Using real examples from training and field experience, they break down how hesitation and overthinking can delay critical decisions. The conversation focuses on trusting your intuition, being willing to be wrong, and building the confidence to act when it matters most, whether in high-stakes situations or everyday life. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:09

Welcome to the Courage to Live Podcast. My name is Josh Bitsko and I'm a retired police captain with 24 years of experience out of Las Vegas. Currently I travel the country and I teach people about courage, resilience, and leadership. Joined by my co-host and wife, Jenna.

unknown 0:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 0:23

Um so we record these a little in advance. So right now, today is uh March Madness. Yeah, is it Sweet 16 that's starting? Yes. And I am in last place in our family. Well, there are no Jack's one behind me.

SPEAKER_00 0:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:40

But you, Kate, and Max are all beating me. Right. And I don't like it because this is the first year that I didn't beat you or your brother, Jordan.

SPEAKER_00 0:51

Um and We are in a pool of 75 people and Max is in 11th place, and I'm down in 20th, I think.

unknown 1:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02

You were in like second there for the last year.

SPEAKER_00 1:04

I was. I was I was riding high.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

There's still a lot of points to be made.

SPEAKER_00 1:10

That's true.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

Uh because uh I need Iowa State to go all the way. But they lost their best player. But you uh took Michigan State, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:18

I did.

SPEAKER_01 1:18

But you still need Iowa State to go first.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

Yes. We need Duke to lose. Everyone that is a Duke fan that's listening to this podcast, you can go ahead and just unsubscribe.

SPEAKER_01 1:28

Don't say that. We want to love all fans, Duke or otherwise.

SPEAKER_00 1:32

Um We need Arizona to lose. We just we basically need all the big teams to go down. And it's possible this year, I feel.

SPEAKER_01 1:42

Are we gonna bet again on any games?

SPEAKER_00 1:44

I don't want to talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

You get real stressed when we bet on games.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

I hate it.

SPEAKER_01 1:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:49

I'm I'm I don't like it.

SPEAKER_01 1:52

We're from Las Vegas.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

I know. We are absolutely not betting on a Michigan State game.

SPEAKER_01 1:57

No.

SPEAKER_00 1:58

Because I need I'm gonna be stressed enough. Yeah. I have them winning the whole thing. This is the year they're gonna do it.

SPEAKER_01 2:03

This is our year.

SPEAKER_00 2:04

This is their year.

SPEAKER_01 2:05

Coaches have got this is his 28th year in the tournament or something crazy like that.

SPEAKER_00 2:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:11

I like it though.

SPEAKER_00 2:12

I do too. All right. What are we talking about today?

SPEAKER_01 2:16

Uh well, it kind of goes along with sports betting. Trusting your intuition. Or and really not talking yourself out of something that's happening in front of you. I think is a good way to put it. Yes. So yeah, we were recently doing a um active threat live active shooter exercise uh in another state, and but it was at a very large area, a very large building. And you know, we had there was role players, officers, fire department, like everybody was involved in this uh training. And you know, it starts with just like gunshots, right? In real reality, you're at work, you're at a special event, and now there's gunshots. And the officers have to respond to that. And because of the size of the building, uh, there was a little bit of hesitation there. Am I hearing gunshots? And the initial when this happened, those officers did respond and go engage who they're supposed to engage and you know, do exactly what they were supposed to do in the training. But then you have another part where you have two officers that are same similar situation that are hearing gunshots and they're like talking to each other about it, and it felt like almost they were talking themselves out of what they were hearing. And I in reality, when that when that kind of stuff happens, I I've had that happen to me. Like in I've been on barricades where you know someone starts shooting, and it's like, did I just hear that? Was that a gunshot? And you there's always that second of hesitation. If you watch the body camera from one October, those first couple initial shots, you can even see the crowd thinking, was that firecrackers? Was that gunshots? I mean, you there's always going to be that like delay, that lag time, and what is it? What is happening in front of me?

SPEAKER_00 3:59

And then you're trying to process it.

SPEAKER_01 4:00

Yeah, you're processing what's happening, and then you have to make a decision. And in law enforcement, or for any first responder, you have to make that decision fast. And you know, we saw during this training, we saw examples of officers that heard gunshots and acted, and then you had what really felt like again talking yourself out of what you're actually experiencing in front of you.

unknown 4:20

Right.

SPEAKER_01 4:21

And it's like, was that gunshots? I don't know. And then wasn't reported, and then you have to um, you know, the the keep doing the tasks that they're doing at hand and not changing direction because of what's happening in front of them or what they're hearing. And you know, that is a common thing that happens in policing, in my experience. Um, I remember when I was a young cop, and it was a whole squad of us all from the same academy. And you know, I was I was a good cop. I was out there working and trying, you know, but I was 21, and there was a cop a little bit older, um, say same experience, had never been a cop before, but he seemed to always he was always getting guns off the street, always getting drugs. And I remember having to sit down and having a conversation with him. And I mean, I knew him my whole career, and we were friends, and but at this point I didn't know him very well, other than we went to the academy together. And I'm like, how how are you doing that? And he he put it very, I thought, eloquently. He's like, you know, it's when I see three people walking down the street, I don't talk myself out of stopping them, you know, if you have a reasonable suspicion that a crime's occurring or or whatever. And and I'm like, and I remember asking, like, what do you mean by that? It's like, I think we all have a tendency to, oh, they're probably just going to the store. Or, hey, you know what, they probably locked their keys in their car. They're not breaking into that car. And but you're not wrong for stopping and checking. And because he would did not talk himself out of what he thought was happening in front of him, and sometimes he was wrong. Sometimes, yeah, they did lock their keys in their car, but sometimes he'd go up there and they take off running because they were actually breaking into the car and it would turn into something else. And I just really thought that that was I mean, it stuck with me. This was in 2003 when this happened. So that conversation when I was a brand new patrol officer, and it really stuck with me because I wanted to be better at making decisions and a better patrol cop. And it kind of followed me throughout my career. But I guess, you know, why do we do that?

SPEAKER_00 6:28

I think that's human nature. I think it's human nature to try to explain away that you're not really seeing what you're seeing or hearing what you're hearing, because that gives you a little bit more time to process, a little bit more time to make a decision. And watching that happen in this training scenario where it's there, there's no lives at stake. There's no, right? We're doing this to help prepare. It was such a peak into not only human behavior, but the very little time that first responders have to make a decision. There is no time to talk yourself out of it. But like you said, it's pretty it is commonplace. And I I think it's to give yourself a little bit more time to try to make the right decision.

SPEAKER_01 7:23

Yeah, I don't think it comes from a place, I'm thinking you're spot on because it doesn't come from a place of, oh, this person's scared or doesn't want to work hard.

SPEAKER_00 7:32

You're trying to make the right decision. Yeah. And give yourself more time to do it. But sometimes there's not enough time, there's not that time. And in this scenario, there was not the luxury of that time, right? So especially in like an active shooter scenario or in real life, there is not that luxury. And we've had a lot of discussions about just listening to your intuition the first time. Right.

SPEAKER_01 8:04

Yeah, your intuition and I think sometimes I think brains are a funny thing, and I'm I'm not a not a doctor. But I just going on personal experience, I think sometimes almost subconsciously, you know what's happening in front of you before you know, like before you consciously make that decision.

SPEAKER_00 8:27

Well, that that is human psychology. And we've talked about our friend Dr. Tamra Harold, who is a researcher and a an expert in crowd dynamics. And that is one thing that she talks about is you know, if you if you're in a crowd and you have like, let's say, an arena or a big event, and you have an emergency happen, people are not gonna immediately get up and rush out. They're gonna take time to think about and try to process what's happening in front of them. Just human psychology is like, I I need a minute. It our brains are, yes, they're way ahead, but it takes a minute for us to actually, okay, I've I've got to move, I gotta do something.

SPEAKER_01 9:18

When in policing and being a young patrol cop or even to a canine handler, um when I when I thought like that cop that I that I worked with, when I thought like him, I would generally make the right decision, or I would generally make the right stops or stop the right, you know, intervene on a crime that's happening and not talk myself out of it. You know, there's a funny thing in in the canine world, uh, when you're working a dog, they call it change of behavior. So if you ever watch honestly, the my favorite cop show, and I I generally don't like watching cop shows, but there's live PD canine edition because my time in canine was my favorite time of my career, to be honest. And you know, so I can watch people out working dogs and you see the occasional bites, but what's happening? Most people think canines are used to bite people, but generally it's not, it's finding people. They're they have a nose way better than like humans. Like you walk by a trash can and you smell trash, and dog walks by a trash can and they smell the hamburger, the leftover hamburger, the tomatoes on the hamburger, the lettuce, the onions, the bun, you know, the seasoning, like that their noses just work so much better than us. And and so what you generally use them for is to find people that are hiding. Somebody runs, somebody hides. And I've seen it so many times with new handlers where you know you're you're going out searching and maybe it's really windy, odor comes off like in a cone. But if it's really windy, it's a really small, like line almost. And the dog will walk by and it'll just be like a quick little head check and they keep going. And a lot of times, like, oh, he probably just heard something or whatever. It's the same, same thing, it's just another example of it. Whereas when you get experienced, you're like, what was that? That was that was weird. We're gonna go back and check it out. So many times when I did that, and I'll find someone hiding under a car or in a shed or something like that. But it's just that same, that quick, like trusting yourself and not talking yourself and trusting that part of you, that whether it's intuition, your subconscious, all of that, if you're putting in the time to train and you have the experience, your first gut instinct is generally the right one.

SPEAKER_00 11:18

Yes, and I feel like okay, so in that scenario, had they had one of them been like, okay, I do you we both think that's gunshots. Let's go do what we need to do. That would have gone way differently, right? But it it was the not trusting their intuition and then also being afraid of making the wrong decision.

SPEAKER_01 11:48

Well, yeah, or looking dumb, or because uh so okay, we have we have a couple things, right? The you're not you're not listening, you're talking yourself out of it, but then there's the but I'm on that fence, I think it might be this. Then why not report it, talk about it, like you know, like I did get on the radio. I think we're getting shot at right now. It sounds a little different than I, you know, I had in the past. Um because also there's that, you know, you are you confident enough, say, hey, I may be wrong, but I think I hear gunshots over here, yeah. Or I think I may be wrong, but whatever, whatever the scenario is. Um, and then you know, it's kind of a risk reward at that point. Like, okay, if I'm wrong, what happens? Oh, I could look, you know, dumb, loss of status, whatever it is. But in reality, it's like if you're just commenting, hey, I thought I heard gunshots. Um, and but if you're right, what happens? Lives will get saved, you know, crimes will be stopped, or whatever it is in in law enforcement. And I I I do think that translates to you know any other job or position. Obviously, in law enforcement, we're talking about the extreme end, right? Like the life or death at times.

SPEAKER_00 12:59

Well, yeah, but then in any other career path, it's that could be, you know, uh ending your career if you follow your intuition, you speak up, you make a decision, could be an unpopular one. It could be, it could, you know, set you back from a promotion. I mean, yeah, it's not life or death, but it could be there could be repercussions, life-altering. Yeah, for sure. And I even as a parent, like the times that I have felt that something isn't right with our kids, there's times I've talked myself out of it, and then weeks later when I find out, oh, this was going on, because we have teenagers, so you know, some of them are doing doing teenage shenanigans. Searching for a different word. Um, but the times that I have not that I've had that intuition and I've not followed up on it and I've talked myself out of it, well, I could have prevented, you know, more shenanigans from happening. But the times that I do listen to that, and I I really have most of the time I do, I do listen to it. And the times that I listen to it are the times that we're able to get involved at the right moment, and my kids don't understand how they cannot lie. And I I well, first of all, most of them are really bad liars, one of them is not, which is truly scary, but it's because I'm listening to that intuition and not talking myself out of it. But it also like on the flip side of that, in in in career, in work, there was a time where I did not listen to my intuition. And you know, I told myself, well, my boss said that this was okay. So I'm gonna do this thing because I gotta advocate for my people and my section. And I had the intuition that I I should not make this move that I was gonna make, even though my boss said to do it, even though I was like, I'm doing the right thing for my people, I'm gonna go stand up, I'm gonna go fight for them. And I had an intuition that I should not do that, and I did it anyway, partly because I wanted my people to know that I was gonna go and I was gonna fight for them. But I have this feeling like, don't do it, and I did it, and the repercussions were like 20 fold what they would have been if I would have just kept my mouth shut. So it it works both ways. Like, you know, sometimes your intuition is telling you to take action, and sometimes not in policing, but sometimes in other careers it's knowing when to stay quiet and knowing when to listen to that intuition to like hold off for a bit because that time had I listened, I think the consequences for my section would not have been so bad.

SPEAKER_01 16:09

No, absolutely. So it isn't just cops on the street that have to be concerned about that, right? Yeah, I mean, I at the end of the day, and we've talked about this in other parts of you know, leadership and all that, is really just confidence. Confidence in yourself that I have been in a similar situation, I've trained, I've prepared myself mentally, I've taken the you know, Josh Bitcoin's police resiliency and critical incident mindset class, but I've done all these things. Okay, I have the confidence that take that risk. I'm gonna be wrong, or I could be wrong, I might not be wrong, but if you know, if I don't do this thing, then lives are gonna be lost.

SPEAKER_00 16:51

So my question is if you are a police officer or you're a person in business life that knows that you hesitate and you try to talk yourself out of decision making, what would be your advice? How do you move past that?

SPEAKER_01 17:12

Well, the first thing that I would do is is honestly, you have to learn to trust yourself, right? And I I I mentioned the book earlier. If this if that's you, I would suggest reading that Malcolm Gladwell's blink because it describes the processes and why why you get there first. So then that's part of learning to trust yourself. And then honestly, come down to a some um self-reflection as to, and we just did a podcast on perfection. So why do you not want to be wrong? Yeah. Because especially in for me saying in a tactical situation, you're gonna debrief it after. I'm like, if let's say, hey, I heard gunshots. Um and then they're debriefing, hey, there were no gunshots. I'm like, listen, I understand that, but I I heard something follow. I heard something, and it I wasn't gonna not say it. And knowing for for me, it's not wanting to be wrong, it's rooted in perfection. We have a whole podcast on it. So, you know, having that honest self-reflection. And you know, honestly, the last thing is is the more you train, the more expert in your field, whatever it is, um, the better you're gonna be. And the more you're gonna have that confidence and uh ability to make those right decisions quick.

SPEAKER_00 18:24

Well, and I think I think too, so for me, it's I don't want to look stupid, right? And I think too, especially in law enforcement, there's a culture of you know, if you get something wrong or you make a mistake, a lot of times the guys on your squad will make fun of you or, you know, call you an idiot or whatever. And so then there's that fear of looking stupid. You don't want to hear it from everybody else. So I think too, it's understanding that that might come along with it with making a quick decision with not second guessing yourself, but also you have the ability to then say, Well, yeah, at least I made a decision. Right? Might have been the wrong one, but I made one.

SPEAKER_01 19:11

The worst thing you can do is make no decision at all. Yeah, and I think that's not just a law enforcement thing, I think that's leadership and across the board. So yeah. Well, I thank you for listening. If you enjoyed the podcast, please share it with a friend. Um, subscribe, leave a review if it's a good one. And I appreciate you spending time with us today.