Episode 10: Back from D.C.- Railroad Day on the Hill, CRISI & Fuel Prices

In this episode of Off the Rails, Bethan is back from D.C.and both she and Rowdy are barely surviving the latest version of the plague.

Bethan recaps the massive undertaking that is Railroad Day on the Hill (huge shoutout to the ASLRRA for pulling it all together): long days navigating Capitol Hill, heightened security, and the importance of sticking to the ASLRRA playbook to deliver clear, consistent talking points.

Those talking points? They centered around four big priorities: (1.) modernizing the 45G short line tax credit to keep up with inflation and continue driving private infrastructure investment; (2.) ensuring strong, reliable funding for key safety grant programs like CRISI, RCE, and Section 130 while encouraging adoption of new safety technologies; (3.) streamlining federal permitting so critical rail projects don’t get stuck in endless delays; and (4.) pushing for a fair, user-based Highway Trust Fund while opposing heavier and longer trucks that shift costs onto taxpayers and infrastructure.

From there, the conversation shifts to CRISI prep. With the NOFO expected any day, and rumors of a tighter turnaround, Bethan is already deep in the trenches, doing everything possible to get ahead of the rush.

On the home front, reality hits hard. Rowdy experiences sticker shock with a diesel delivery coming in at around $7/gallon, making the cost of “doing business” feel especially steep. The episode wraps with Bethan slowly spiraling over budgets and fuel prices, while Rowdy floats some…creative ideas for expanding the tax base.

So grab your coffee, crank up the phonograph, and let’s go Off the Rails.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome to Off the Rails, the podcast with Steam Locomotives Modern Maps, Joe Executive Director of the Mount Radio Sonic Railroad At the Mar, and Route Pierre Super Attentive, Professional Catherine, and a Coach. Together they pull back the curtain on the wild, weird, and often hilarious world of tourists of the railroad. You'll get a front road at the ends and out of this early week. So grab your ticket, hold on to your sense of humor, and join us for a ride into the unpredictable world of Steve. This is Off the Rail.

SPEAKER_03 0:37

Welcome back from the land of the Steam. Right? Welcome to Off the Rails with Rowdy and Bethon. See, they got me on camera the last time saying I suck at this shit when you're not here. So it's so nice to have you back. It well, it is. Didn't you what? I'm not having to watch your dot on my phone and make sure you're not getting killed or something.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

Okay, so we're both sick, by the way. Production, post-production's gonna be hell on this, because I I'm going to request uh Calvin that you edit out the coughing, the heavy breathing, the snot. If you can make me look like Beyoncé, that'd be great. I I mean, like with it within some parameters. Do something for him. Anyway. Um, I didn't do my pen click before we started. Okay, so moving on with the podcast. I was in DC lobbying with the American Short Line Railroad Association for Railroad Day on the Hill, while you and Eric did a podcast all on your own. We did. That because of my travel arrangements, I did not listen to until it had already posted. And I started getting texts from people saying, Hey, you should let Eric and Rowdy do this all the time. And then I would get like a text from someone else that would be like, Oh my god, why did you let them do this?

SPEAKER_03 2:03

Um see, the bad part about it is that Eric and I together are the worst of both worlds.

SPEAKER_01 2:11

It used to be that like when we started pre-Eric, Mount Rainier Scenic Railroad. Everybody thought I was the problem, but really it was you. Yeah. And now I think everyone everyone has this perception that Eric is the most professional one of the bunch. Oh no. Oh no. Eric, so it's it's we're just full of sleeper agents. Super. Speaking of DC. So you um Rowdy and I share locations. Um she started it. It's because I kept losing you when we started traveling together.

SPEAKER_03 2:47

I just wander off and you wouldn't be able to find me. And you said I couldn't get a backpack leash for you. Uh-huh. And then my phone would start vibrating going, Bethany is looking for you. Bethana is looking for you.

SPEAKER_01 2:56

And then we the the guy behind you in line was like, Oh my gosh, what is that? And I answered that I had a tracking suppository. And he believed me. He did. So anyway, most of most of my staff has my location at any given point in time. Which I don't know what that says about our work environment. I don't know either. But while I was in DC, I kept getting texts saying, Oh, hey, do you know that you're right below the Library of Congress? Oh, hey, by the way, take a right turn, right turn, right turn. You're so near the the Go go talk to so and so.

SPEAKER_03 3:34

Uh-huh, yeah. Right. And then, you know, I think the last one, because I forgot you're hanging out with Natalie for a couple of days, was Waffle House is way too far north from where you're at.

SPEAKER_01 3:42

I know, right? Because that's I spent a few days with a friend while I was in DC. So um, yeah, anyway, we should let's production. We're done with our intro. We're gonna move on to the rest of the podcast.

SPEAKER_03 3:57

Bethan, what is Railroad Day on the Hill?

SPEAKER_01 4:00

So, okay, the American Shortline Association, the A S L R R A, is a fantastic organization, and I would argue that our dues, our membership dues, were probably the best money we spent in 2025.

SPEAKER_03 4:18

Yes. Um I mean, we made up for that and the amount of alcohol we drank off the free bar at the convention.

SPEAKER_02 4:26

We.

SPEAKER_03 4:27

I.

SPEAKER_01 4:28

Okay. So um they offer really, really cool like template programs for compliance. Um, you went to the DSLE training. Yep, it was their first one. Their first one. They're doing some leadership trainings, they're doing part 219 drug and alcohol trainings. They do a lot of advocacy work too. So um, we all know that maybe government doesn't always work as intended, right? So they're they've got really good liaisons with the FRA that you know can help you have a dialogue maybe at a higher level about some of what's going on.

SPEAKER_02 5:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 5:09

So Railroad Day on the Hill is I don't know that it's been going on for 25 years, according to the notes that Jared gave. It's awful. And um it's a lobby day for the railroad industry, class ones, short lines, contractors, suppliers.

SPEAKER_03 5:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:24

And to meet with our elected officials who are in charge of whether you like them or not. Yes, whether you like them or not.

SPEAKER_03 5:33

So Bethon wasn't arrested this year. We had a we actually had a poll going on to see if uh there was a bet in her company bet that Bethon was either gonna what were we up to? Like 60% chance she was gonna get arrested?

SPEAKER_02 5:48

Yeah, why?

SPEAKER_03 5:49

60% chance because it's just what you do. Anyway.

SPEAKER_01 5:52

I mean it is, but not not in the US. Never in the US.

SPEAKER_03 5:57

It's never too late. Anyway.

SPEAKER_01 5:59

I will say so. Walking from DC was wild. Security was tighter than I've ever seen it before.

SPEAKER_03 6:10

So though I went to Washington, DC about four months after 9-11. Like we were we were in the shit when I went to Washington, DC last. And the way that you were describing it was like you would have thought it would have been more like that right after 9-11 than it would have been right now.

SPEAKER_01 6:32

I spent a lot of summers in DC because I had I had family there. I actually had um my grandma's cousin worked at the White House. Um, Ellen was a Ellen was a badass back in the day. But um, so I spent a lot of summers in DC and you know, like did all the things, and I've been back since I was there for Obama's inauguration, and I was invited, but whoop, okay. You silence that. Um I it's they've written apologies to the listeners, it's gonna be a day. Um so but security was wild. I mean, the the lines to get into the Senate building were like an hour to get through security, and then it's sort of like going through airport security, you know, like you do the X-ray, you you know, put your bags and stuff in, and once you're in, usually you're free to move about. But I've never seen, you know, like guards with ARs in the halls of the Capitol. That was wild to me. And um, you know, like all of the barricades sort of preventing vehicular traffic were up. I mean, and we had just um uh began our more antagonistic relations with Iran when we were there. So um we'll probably get to that later in the podcast because we're a power on the phone with a fuel supplier today. Anyway, um the Shoreline Association does an incredible job organizing this day because I think there were like 380 attendees that met with like 320 representatives.

SPEAKER_03 8:11

No, that's that's just back up there because I I screwed up and I thought that you were back there for three or four days for Railroad Day on the Hill. It's a day. You are there for an eight-hour period.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

Yeah, no, it starts at like seven in the morning and you're there all day.

SPEAKER_03 8:27

Yeah, it's it's a day. So railroad day on the hill is actually a day. A day. It's not like some of these things where they call it Railroad Day on the Hill or Railroad or Day this, day that, and it's a few days spread out. It is you are trying to one day. All at how many different meetings were you? I think I had six. So you're in six different meetings spread all over the Capitol complex. Yeah. Yeah, and with a hundred, you're there with 380 other people all trying to vie for time with the same people that you're trying to vie for.

SPEAKER_01 8:56

I mean, yeah, it's so they or the way they organize it is incredible. I mean, so they do two trainings ahead of time. Um, and you would have self-selected out, you would have voted yourself off the island with the trainings because they're very specific that there are four points that they want to target, right? These are the four points we're making. We're not talking about everyone's individual operations, we're not talking about this, we're not talking about that. We're not talking about immigration and the border, we're not talking about budgets, we're not talking about the environment, right?

SPEAKER_03 9:28

We're not talking about the meat and potatoes, the important stuff that we need to get through.

SPEAKER_01 9:32

The reason is, you know, the I think the Shortline Association is fairly well respected in DC. You know, they set up all of these meetings on our behalf with AIDS or with, you know, your Congress, um, Congressperson or your senator. And, you know, it's it's a respect thing, right? They they have a lot going on. Yeah. And, you know, it's like busy. Yeah, this is what we're talking about, right? And they need to know who they're meeting with and what what the point of the meeting is. So there were, I mean, so there were trainings ahead of time that you attended virtually, and then they send out your talking points, then they send out this giant spreadsheet with all of the meetings of this is who you're meeting with when. Um, you know, they select a team lead so that they have, you know, if there's five or six people in a meeting, you're talking about this, you're talking about that, you have a team lead that's coordinating.

SPEAKER_03 10:29

And weren't you one of those?

SPEAKER_01 10:31

At the last minute? Yeah. Uh-huh. Uh well, no, it's not even at the last minute because this is in um this is in such flux up until like even that day. One of my meetings was canceled. So they send you Outlook invites the day before. Right. So all of these notifications just pop up in your phone and they have, you know, all of the data of this is who you're meeting with, this is your point of contact, and then they change. Like, you know, I had a meeting that was canceled, I had one that was pushed back. So they they even change throughout the day. So you're like going around like this on your phone. Um so you're wondering why Rowdy was not at Railroad Day on the Hill. It would have been very hard for you to stick to the talking points efficiently. Uh-huh. And it you would have sucked very distracted.

SPEAKER_03 11:19

I would have because I would have been off at the Library of Congress or wandering around the Capitol looking at statues and shit.

SPEAKER_01 11:24

Yeah, you would have had a really hard time.

SPEAKER_03 11:26

Um, and you know, when I go to DC, I go there to explore.

SPEAKER_01 12:06

And that's why I I did stop and see a if I do this again, I will probably get there a day early so I can have some museum time.

SPEAKER_03 12:13

I did stop and see a dear friend after, but um So Railroad Day on the Hill was quite literally a day of you just.

SPEAKER_01 12:22

Yeah, I think I did. I didn't go for a run or workout that day, and I think I still did like 17,000 steps or something because you know, healed Apple Watch. Um so I mean the VFW was there lobbying, there were a group of pharmacists lobbying, and it's you know, like you're going through the basement tunnels between buildings to try and run between your meetings. And then um, some of the things that really like impressed me um about a third of the folks there were from Class One Railroads or GW. I didn't expect that they were gonna have as big of a presence. So they're all their policy people, you know, like all of the multi-billion dollar company, you're gonna have your people there. Well, I I know, but I mean, and they're all I mean, they're good at their job.

SPEAKER_03 13:13

I would have got in trouble because I would have been with the G and W people going, hey, we're we have a class, we have a class three that butts up with you guys, and hey, can I take my steam engine out on your railroad? And they're gonna be like, what are you talking about, dude? Yeah. So is there uh any tangible results from this? I mean, yes and no.

SPEAKER_01 13:29

So I wanted us, probably not. Well, no. So there were four main talking points. Um the first was just you know, like continuing to fund programs like Chrissy, which we'll talk about. Um, the second is the 45G tax credits. So that's um what is the most common uh cause of derailments on shorelines? Wide gauge. Wide gauge. Okay. Wide gauge. So since the 45G or a whole entire railroad then.

unknown 14:03

Stop it.

SPEAKER_01 14:04

So since 45G, it's a tax credit for maintenance of way. Right. So for track, track maintenance. And you can do things like barter your tra tax credits if you're not using them all. It's it's something that's really helped shortline railroads invest more in their infrastructure.

SPEAKER_02 14:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:21

Right? It incentivizes shortlines to do so. I think the current tax credit is like$3,100, it might be$3,200 per mile. Um there's an effort to increase it to$6,100 per mile because it hasn't been adjusted for inflation in like 20 years.

SPEAKER_03 14:38

And then most things in the government aren't.

SPEAKER_01 14:40

Yeah, and then index it so that on an ongoing basis it is adjusted for inflation.

SPEAKER_03 14:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:45

So that was that was one of them. Um regulatory um consistency in the permitting process. Oh, yeah. Like the I think it's through the the tip, the um highways get certain um exemptions from like permitting JARPA like SHIPO regulations. Um railroads get that too if they're doing it themselves. Well, initially, railroads were supposed to get the same exemptions as like the highways. But whatever bureaucracy happened, we don't. So, you know, there's inclusion for that streamlining. So in states like California or Washington, the state may have more restrictive permitting requirements than the federal government. Yep. So rather than doing both, you're just complying with a more restrictive one. So when we do things like get Chrissy funding, sometimes that period between the award when they notify that you that you've been selected to receive money and obligation when you can start spending money can be really, really, really, really, really long because you have to go through this massive permitting and regulatory approval process. So streamlining that. And then the last talking point was truck size and the roads. So the trucking industry, and I think we've talked about this on the podcast before, there are user-based fees, right? So you pay tolls to use the highway system. Those tolls, in theory, you're supposed to pay for the maintenance of the highway system. And it doesn't really work out that way.

SPEAKER_03 16:15

It doesn't work out that way. Because the way the trucking industry works is that you get a you get nailed when you do your a tonnage for the year. So you're basically paying a fixed price on whatever you're registering your truck to be able to haul. And then whenever you do a permit for like if you're doing oversized stuff for the state of Washington, that's supposed to do it. And then there's also the gas tax that's supposed to pay for it.

SPEAKER_01 16:36

So those things are not equating to highway maintenance anymore. They never are you know, railroads don't have the sort of same use rate we own our infrastructure. We own our infrastructure.

SPEAKER_03 16:47

The big thing, the big point is, because I see this all the damn time on the internet where people are arguing about how the railroads in Europe being different than the railroads in the United States, or why doesn't the railroads in the United States do this, this, and the other for one, you can fit Europe in the United States. Sure. But the funding is that each one of those countries which live in their great utopias have a different way of funding the railroads. But they are funded. They are funded. Yeah. The railroads are private companies in the United States. They have to figure out out of their profit how to if do their infrastructure thing.

SPEAKER_01 17:19

And you know, we talk about government. What does government take care of? In theory, it's you know, infrastructure education meeting basic needs. This is an area I would say, I think it's fairly safe to say in bipartisan that the US just sort of falls short. They do.

SPEAKER_03 17:32

Because there's the there's uh in my opinion, it is because they haven't figured out how to bridge between a private company and the healthcare industry.

SPEAKER_01 17:41

Anyway, the things I'm not supposed to talk about when talking about the four main points. Yep, yep, yep. Um, yep, yep, yep. But you know, it's longer trucks and on the highways, right? It's ends up being a greater taxpayer.

SPEAKER_03 17:53

We've we're running into with the boxcar situation where they want to put more freight on the same footprint. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 17:58

Yep, yep, yep. So those were the main points. Um, tangible results, I think that we'll talk about that in the next segment, which is Chrissy.

SPEAKER_03 18:08

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 18:09

So the um they had like a paneer wrap, like a it was really good. It was like Indian Mexican fusion at the cafeteria. And the cafeteria was so busy, I couldn't find anywhere to sit unless I was gonna sit on the five foot tall VFW lap, and he probably would have been okay with it. He was nice. Anyway, so we're talking about Chrissy. It was pretty good. Okay, so Chrissy, what is Chrissy? Do you know what it stands for? I know what it stands for, but I've had too much tea, so I can't get it off the top of my head. Consolidated rail infrastructure and safety improvements. So it's a federal grant program run by the railroad folks, the FRA. Um, and the goal is to fund projects that improve safety, reliability, and efficiency of railroads in the U.S. Projects can include things like track repairs or upgrades, safety improvements at crossings, yard improvements, technology equipment. I think the Shortline Safety Institute, I think, had Chrissy funding to do like ongoing trainings, or Iowa Interstate did maybe.

SPEAKER_03 19:15

Some people have bought locomotives. Or you could like some people build a bridge. Build a bridge. Some people have you know done uh facility upgrades.

SPEAKER_01 19:25

There's been a lot of rumors about Chrissy for a long time, and I'm gonna put a caveat on this and say that I am not an expert uh on Chrissy. This is this is my first Chrissy. Yeah, I do do a lot of grants though. Uh that's one of my things. So um we went through this whole process of becoming a common carrier railroad so that we could basically apply for Chrissy.

SPEAKER_03 19:54

So that we could apply for Chrissy and then come to find out we were a common carrier railroad the whole time.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

Well, there wasn't that's a subject for a different podcast when we figure out what the hell happened.

SPEAKER_03 20:06

Yeah. Um do you have reporting marks already? Oh well.

SPEAKER_01 20:11

Yeah. That's a that we're gonna move on. Um, so there's been a lot of rumors. It like it was anticipated Chrissy was gonna come out in the fall. It didn't. There's been rumors, rumors, rumors that it's gonna come out. Wasn't there a rumor that it wasn't gonna come out at all? I don't, it's been well, with the changes in the administration, it's been very uncertain.

SPEAKER_02 20:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:35

Um, productions laughing at me back there as I struggled to get that one out. Uh good job. I think. Yep. Um, I did, I can't say that on the podcast.

unknown 20:47

Never mind.

SPEAKER_03 20:48

It's okay. I've been pissing everybody off because I've been attacking both sides for the last 48 hours.

SPEAKER_01 20:53

I know I've I'm Facebook friends with you, whether I want to be or not. So there's been the no foe is the notice of funding opportunity. That's when they release the guidelines in the application. And there's been lots of rumors about the no fo for a while now. We think the no fo may appear this week, meaning the week that we are filming this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:15

Um you guys you guys run a week or two behind.

SPEAKER_01 21:18

Hopefully, it will be out by then. Um, but there's been a lot of rumors about the no fo that um the application period is usually like a 90-day period. They get all your shit together and apply. A lot of rumors have been that it's gonna be a 30 to 40-day application period. So when I start texting you that news, what's your reaction?

SPEAKER_03 21:43

Oh, I I just I know you're sitting at home in a fetal position for one, but then I also sit back and say, I'm probably we're probably not gonna see you for anywhere between 30 and 90 days, especially if it's the 30 day. I mean, a grant as big as the Chrissy to try to get that done in 30 days.

SPEAKER_01 22:52

Yeah. That's tough. I mean, and I'm doing so one of the things I'm doing in advance is requesting letters of support.

SPEAKER_02 23:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:01

So I've got this giant letter of support list. Do you want to show good support from the public and the private sectors? So I could probably add one more to that list after today, but okay, we'll talk. Um got it. Yeah. Okay. Um, but like I've asked um our senators, our congresspeople for letters of support, Hampton and Alta, the two mills. That we would be, you know.

SPEAKER_03 23:28

Ultimately, we are trying to rebuild the railroad for steam train purposes, pulling passenger cars, but that just so happens to be next to a couple of mills.

SPEAKER_01 23:37

Sure. But Hampton, like in their letter of interest, has said, yeah, we could easily haul 1,400 cars a year. And that's one of the two mills. That's legitimate business. And when it's all said and done, you know, if we're hauling 2,000 rail cars a year, that's 6,000 trucks off the road in a rural community that's infrastructure. I mean, it's the roads in Morton are.

SPEAKER_03 24:01

You know, the WADOT would want to be behind that because I mean, in my past So I have a meeting with Washdot tomorrow, um, Friday. Like in my past life, I repave the highways around here. Yeah. And I sit back and look at how long ago it was that we did Highway 7 and the condition that it is in now compared to when we repaved it, and it's like, oh my God, the thing is just getting beat to hell. And then you would look at the number of trucks going in and out of Morton because of the mills, it's it's ridiculous.

SPEAKER_01 24:30

Pretty much. Um, so like I have meetings with Washstadt um with economic development for both counties, you know. So there's all in all, I think my list is around 35 letters of support that I've requested. Um, you know, and for the elected officials, typically there's like a little application process that you fill out a lot of the folks schedule a meeting. So if you imagine 35 letters of support with a half hour meeting of each or an hour to do, you know, and you send a draft letter of this is what your letter of support could look like to them with your reasons. And I've probably I've spent a lot of time on that. Um one of the advantages to Railroad Day on the Hill is I was able to get all of the AIDS cards for all of our representatives, email them directly, say, hey, thanks so much for taking the time and welcoming me into your office in DC. By the way, you know, we are applying for this. So that that has been really helpful. I just got a um letter, a joint letter back today from um three of our representatives. So that was really, really great. Um, so like I'm checking them off the list. But the no-fo hasn't been released yet. Um, big, big shout out to David Anzer, who's helping us with this application. Um, but you know, we've put together a strategic infrastructure plan, which I bug you about a lot. Right? So it's like, what are the priorities? How are we gonna slice and dice it? Because and the slicing and dicing it doesn't make sense. No, not really, because there's a 20% match. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:15

So So you're trying to figure out how you're gonna rebuild 32 miles railroad, but you can't just start at one end and work your way to the other. You're identifying inside the work the priorities, and those priorities are what the heavy Chrissy funds are being used for. So, example, if Chrissy's paying for the bridge, well, now we have to support the construction of the bridge. How do you get most of those materials down to the bridge by way of the railroad? Well, that means now instead of opening up the railroad from Etonville this way, we're focusing on opening up the railroad from the staging area, which is likely going to be here, to the bridge. Yeah. So it's a little nonsensical. It's extremely nonsensical in the way of, oh, well, now we have to haul rock. Now we have to do that.

SPEAKER_01 27:00

And this is a time where I'm really glad that I do have some operations experience. Well, it is not yours. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:06

Thank God I do, because you know, if you didn't have operational experience and you're trying to figure it out, you would be making a massive mess for the guys that were on the ground that were going to be doing more.

SPEAKER_01 27:14

You need to be able to understand like equipment staging, material staging, mobilization, right? Like how long it takes you to get all of your equipment out to the site and therefore how long. Because the reality is, well, our application will have a contractor come in to do some of the tie work, and definitely the surfacing. The reality is, in order to meet that match, we're still gonna be doing a fair bit of the work ourselves.

SPEAKER_03 27:39

Um say a good 60% of the heavy lifting is still gonna be done by us.

SPEAKER_01 27:43

In our crew, in-house. Um, and you know, that's that's how we're gonna have to do it.

SPEAKER_03 27:49

Um fire up a steam donkey and start knocking pilings on the ground. That's a joke. It is a joke. That's a joke. That's a massive joke. That's a joke. That we don't have a steam donkey the board.

SPEAKER_01 28:00

Oh my gosh, that's a joke. Um shut up. So anyway, um, you know, like it's the strategic infrastructure plan. So I'm doing all of these pieces ahead of the Cripsie application. We've talked a lot about the strategic infrastructure plan, which has involved a fair bit of bushwhacking on the railroad to go look at bridges that are there, there and vegetated, um heavily vegetated. Taking weird measurements of holes in the ground and being like, so okay. I think we need about this much fill. Um, you know, looking at Thai condition and sort of laying it out mile by mile.

SPEAKER_03 28:42

Let me ask you this. Oh god. Why does it matter to a heritage tourist railroad which doesn't fall in the parameters of a railroad that can get Chrissy?

SPEAKER_01 28:54

Okay, so to be clear, our Chrissy application is to support freight service. Yes. And the freight service alone on the line would justify the funding ask, which would be about 20 million. The benefit cost analysis of that makes sense and it works. Having said that, Heritage Railroads, and I think I've said this probably almost every podcast, fall in this gray area for funding.

SPEAKER_03 29:19

Yes, they do.

SPEAKER_01 29:21

There are no other big funding pots allowed for us. So we, well, we have been making a profit, albeit 2025 was not the best profit year, but we also had fire flooding and locusts.

SPEAKER_03 29:36

So that's who you want to call the kids on the train, sure.

SPEAKER_01 29:40

Sometimes those were my children. Your karma's a bitch. Anyway, um shit.

SPEAKER_03 29:50

Side track B-railed. That is a perfect place to insider commercial break.

SPEAKER_01 29:55

Um, okay. So we, you know, folks have asked, well, can't you just build a bigger runaround in Elby? We could, but what's the point? Because there's crossings in a driveway and a highway. Oh, or wait, but is we have a limiting factor in our train size with where we're operating now.

SPEAKER_03 30:16

Yeah. Um, and what it what it boils down to the way I look at this, is that you're gonna answer your own question. I'm gonna answer my own question. You'll sit back and relax. Is that this shit costs money. Okay? It's not dreams. Really? It's not a if you build it, they will come. It's not a you restore a 484, you're gonna be doing 80 miles an hour down the main line. This shit costs money, right? Why that question and what does it matter to a heritage railroad? Is because heritage railroads fall in that gray area. If you could crack into Chrissy as a heritage railroad, that gives you the opportunity to pay for things like updating your railroad infrastructure.

SPEAKER_01 31:00

Or if there was infrastructure funding that heritage railroads were exactly right, because look, look at the 1309.

SPEAKER_03 31:07

Okay, many moons ago. 1309, they're getting done restoring the thing. What's the FRA do? They come in and say the railroad is not in the condition to be able to run that locomotive. So now they have to come up with another, I don't know how much money it was, to figure out how to install, I don't know how many ties it was.

SPEAKER_02 31:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:24

But they had to pay for that work out of pocket. So if there's no, if there's no funding opportunities out there for the tourist railroads to fall into, you'll never get it done.

SPEAKER_01 31:34

And I mean, I think there's this, there, there's this perception that tourist railroads or excursion railroads don't make money. A large perception of that. And some of them don't. But here's the thing: if the same funding pots that were available to shortline railroads were evolved available to excursion railroads, excursion railroads would be profitable. They would be profitable. I have no doubt in my mind. Now, not every business is well managed. Right. Sure.

SPEAKER_03 31:59

But Well, look at the situation that we are in. If we would have been able to get into some of them funding at apparathi, you know, or if Tacoma Rail, because they owned the railroad, would have opened up some of that for our part of the railroad, we wouldn't be in the situation that we are in currently where we're trying to figure out how to how to in a short amount of time undo 40 years of no maintenance to the railroad.

unknown 32:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:24

Yeah. So I mean, and it again, this started this whole us being a common carrier, looking at freight, all of this started by me looking at where the heck funding was available and saying, you know what? Going, oh God, in the state of Washington, it's not. It's not, right? There is none.

SPEAKER_03 32:44

Exactly. So to for us to grow, I mean, you what what was what was our clashing of the heads this year in the budget? Well it was maintenance away. Yeah. Because we're we're sitting here going, we need this amount of money to be able to do what we want to do. And we're sitting, you're sitting back being, you know, the person in the room saying, Well, this money doesn't exist. Yeah. And that's and and again. And Corey and I are sitting back going, how are we supposed to manage this railroad on this money?

SPEAKER_01 33:13

Is that my crew know their jobs better than I know their jobs? It is my responsibility to find them the resources to be able to do their jobs, right? I never, ever, ever want to say no when you say, I need this. Yeah. But I also can't make money up here out of thin air. No.

SPEAKER_03 33:30

Um what's the most expensive thing on this railroad?

SPEAKER_01 33:33

The damn track. It's the damn, it's not the steam engines. No, they're relatively cheap.

SPEAKER_03 33:38

Exactly. I mean, ooh, everybody out there freaking four. Oh my god, the steam engine costs so much money. Yeah, if you're rebuilding a 484 to nowhere, if you're rebuilding a logging Mikado that can go anywhere, steam locomotives are not that expensive.

SPEAKER_01 33:51

Yeah. I mean, but it's so the funding paradigm for it.

SPEAKER_03 33:57

It is what it is.

SPEAKER_01 33:57

But I look at people like American Heritage. They are they're operating a solid, solid business making money based off excursion railroads. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:10

You know, because we know they listened to this or watch this, you should sit back. We should sit back and say, hey, American Heritage, if you could jump into the Chrissy, which I think they did jump into the Chrissy just a little bit with that bridge out by Silverton. But look at what that was able to get them. They were able to get a brand new bridge without having to pay for that out of pocket.

SPEAKER_01 34:27

Yeah. I mean, but on talking, you know, from information from them, the excursion railroad industry we think is carrying about a quarter of the passengers that Amtrak does. And, you know, there's there's a few what I think are logical fallacies. People argue that Amtrak receives funding because it's providing critical transportation. I would argue that outside the Northeast Corridor, Amtrak is just as recreational as most of what we're doing. It is.

SPEAKER_03 34:57

The only reason why I would take Amtrak is because I don't feel like driving and I want I don't care if I'm 24 hours late.

SPEAKER_01 35:03

But recreational trails receive transportation funding in many instances, including federal funding. So in my mind, there is no difference between what Amtrak does in a most of the country, um, a recreational trail, for example, and an excursion railroad. Those are all infrastructure needs that support rural economies, right? That create jobs, that that do all of this, and maybe your tourist railroad down the road is gonna end up hauling freight and serving the city.

SPEAKER_03 35:32

Okay, how Amtrak is advertising the cascades right now. They're not advertising it as a hey, you business people, and you need to get on to go between Seattle and Portland. They're it they're advertising it like a tourist thing of oh, well, sit back and enjoy the pretty scenery and blah blah blah blah blah. Yeah. That's not crazy.

SPEAKER_01 35:50

I mean, and it it is a much nicer experience than flying now. Oh, it um I would argue that. I would argue that different topic. Let's shoot a podcast from Amtrak. Oh god, that's not that'd be so fun. Uh we can travel together with microphones.

SPEAKER_03 36:09

I know the station.

SPEAKER_01 36:11

Um anyway, so the long and the short, uh, Bethon's life is is Chrissy now. Um Bethan is Chrissy, Chrissy is Bethon. Yeah, something like that. Um, it is what I'm doing. Um our ask is gonna be somewhere around 20 million. Um I'm working on slicing and dicing the match, the strategic infrastructure plan, the letters of support, and shout out to David and Toby who have done this before. But are helping and advising us and putting up with me. Which is probably the worst part of it all. Go ahead and silence that one too. Okay. So we are now on to the in the news segment. Uh hey Rowdy, have you seen gas prices?

SPEAKER_03 37:05

Uh that's our the picture picture this.

SPEAKER_01 37:07

Our our news is 2026.

SPEAKER_03 37:12

And Rowdy calls Beth and says, we just spent$3,300 to run the weekend. Yeah. I don't know what to say about it.

SPEAKER_01 37:24

The problem is when you say picture this, then my my head immediately goes to shaggy song lyrics. And I'm like, wait, wait, wait.

SPEAKER_03 37:34

I I don't know what it is for everybody else, but for right now, um we just got the diesel topped off for a grand total of seven bucks a gallon.

unknown 37:44

Fuck.

SPEAKER_03 37:45

Seven dollars a gallon, and because we have an excursion weekend, Easter weekend, and an excursion weekend, um, by the time we fill the diesel up again, there's chances. Now, mind you, this is delivered. Chances are it's gonna be a lot more. And today, Rowdy had an hour-long conversation with Nate Spencer over at EcoLube, who's a great guy, about steam locomotive fuel and what that looks like over the course of the next couple of years. And in the last three years, Bethan, would you care to take a guess how much steam locomotive fuel has fluctuated? Zero. It is the same today as it was when we paid for it in 2023 when we were opening up. As a matter of fact, he told us that if we could get to the point that we could store do 9,000 gallons in a whack, he could shave 30%.

SPEAKER_01 38:34

So, what you're saying is I need to come up with fuel storage in addition to our shop extension. Yes. Okay, add that to my checklist.

SPEAKER_03 38:42

So this is this is for all the freaking ding-dongs out there that seem to not be able to grasp when we talk about steam versus diesel. Because I I see all the comments all the time. And as a matter of fact, one of these questions on here, Eric and I answered in the last podcast. Is it it it's the price of fuel. The price of fuel is so outlandishly stupid. The T's getting to me, I'm sorry. But seven dollars a gallon for diesel, a buck seventy-five a gallon for steam locomotive fuel, bucks 75 a gallon, mind you, we could probably take 30 cents a gallon off that if we could order more. You don't want your tea? No, I'm just I'm sharing a little bit. Oh, that's okay. At the break, I can always go make more tea. Um this can't be agreeable.

SPEAKER_01 39:39

We've had we've had conversations like our managers meeting last week. You know, it came up of what we do.

SPEAKER_03 39:46

We basically have to stop maintenance away from working because not stop them from working.

SPEAKER_01 39:51

We're changing where they're working and the priorities, right?

SPEAKER_03 39:53

But the priorities are because they're burning through 200 gallons of diesel a week, and we can't, we never no one budgeted for a fucking war in Iran.

SPEAKER_01 40:02

Yeah, that that is exactly what I said when I was looking at our invoices, our profit and loss comparison. I didn't budget for us doing this shit in the Middle East again, and my favorite thing is all of the millennials keep accidentally saying Iraq because we've done this before.

SPEAKER_03 40:15

We've done this before.

SPEAKER_01 40:16

Anyway, it's just different.

SPEAKER_03 40:18

So when I ran a board member last night and I handed her all the receipts, and she's like, what are all these? I was like, well, most of those are just all fuel receipts, and she just started looking them over, and you can see her face get white.

SPEAKER_01 40:29

Yeah, so okay. Um, this is not a political podcast.

SPEAKER_03 40:35

No, we like to say we hate everybody equally at this point. Um Red, blue, independent, you all suck. So America, god damn it. I'm gonna start the American Party. Yeah, she's a matter of fact, no segue here, because we're just derailing, is that today I told They're about to talk to today. Eric and I had the Is this the Snickers thing? No, it's not the Snickers thing. Eric and I were talking greatly about taxes, and I was like, look, elect me governor, I'll I'll make prostitution legal, and we'll just tax the shit out of the sex industry, and that's how the hell we get through the freaking budget gap. So you're gonna exploit women? Men too, because he was like, hell, I'd pay for sex from a guy. Anyway, so gas prices.

SPEAKER_01 41:23

Oh my god, I was gonna send this episode to the Shortline Association people. They would love it. And say we talked about Railroad Day on the Hill and I can't that's not too late.

SPEAKER_03 41:34

Calvin can edit it out. Whew, I made your tea way better than I made my tea.

SPEAKER_01 41:38

Okay, so gas prices are really, really high. We didn't budget for stuff in the Middle East. So right now, because, like, for example, maintenance away, we had scheduled to be working towards Eatonville now, there's a really, you know, which involves a lot of on-the-road time to get all your equipment to Eatonville that significantly increases your costs. So we're doing work a little bit closer to home base now.

SPEAKER_03 42:04

Just put it this way, it's 125 gallons of gas difference.

SPEAKER_01 42:09

What has um the what has the boss told you about getting a steam engine running? Imperative. That's a much nicer way than I remember.

SPEAKER_03 42:20

Uh in it's imperative. I know you text me daily. What's the status of the UT? What's the status of the UT? It's like, wow, we can only go as fast as a little black box can take readings.

unknown 42:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 42:31

Which for anybody wondering, the UT on the 70 is almost done. Yeah. Half a day.

SPEAKER_01 42:38

I'm about to go do it myself.

SPEAKER_03 42:40

Um Nate would get really offended.

SPEAKER_01 42:43

So fuel, fuel prices are gonna kill us. But having a steam having a steam engine does not protect us from the fuel prices associated with most of our maintenance away activities. But the I don't know how many trains, 500 plus odd trains that we run a year, it it it helps.

SPEAKER_03 43:01

It helps. But the thing of it is, is is I think that I mean, what was happened the other day? You and I were like, what the the other discussion that we had when I had Chris go count some things. Oh then we both went home and I said, This is stupid. This is this is crazy stupid. Of we are looking at all this stuff and we keep coming back to steam engines make sense. It's stupid. We've tried to talk ourselves out of it. So I tried to talk myself out of it, and I mean, then the fuel truck shows up, and we I mean, the alcohol, for people wondering, the alcohol only holds 600 gallons. Yeah, 600 gallons. It was$2,300 to fill up 600 gallons, and we're gonna burn through that. We did 200 gallons just in the weekend.

SPEAKER_01 43:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:54

Oh god, she's starting to freaking foul dice. I don't know if it's the tea or thinking about money, but she's starting to go down. It's money.

SPEAKER_01 44:03

I was just no, I just came to the realization that my Excel sheet on the Chrissy stuff on my match is probably incorrect. Because of the fuel prices? Yeah. Oh, 100%. And I probably need to add another 10% to it.

SPEAKER_03 44:17

More than likely, because right now, what what I mean? Okay, so the mini's running at 10 gallons a day. The the spiker is running at about 15 gallons a day, and that's if they don't put in a full day. If the spiker has to hold a mini, then we're talking about more. I mean, Rowdy's going to the freaking fuel island once a week to fill up that hundred-gallon tank in the back of the truck. It's it's real. I mean, it's real. The fuel prices are killing not just us, but everybody. And when we circle back to talking about fuel prices, it just I cannot believe that right now it is cheaper to run a steam locomotive than it is to run a diesel. And the thing that makes that happen the maintenance, including the the maintenance.

SPEAKER_01 45:02

Including the maintenance.

SPEAKER_03 45:03

But the biggest thing that drives that argument is the fuel prices.

SPEAKER_01 45:09

Okay, we gotta wrap this up with questions.

SPEAKER_03 45:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 45:13

The T was too good. She's fading fast, guys. Since I am still clearly recovering about the fuel conversation, we're gonna circle back to your um revenue generation. Oh god,

SPEAKER_03 45:25

Education. Just stop and think about you could pay for the education on that. I mean, it it would be totally weird that you're paying for the educational system based off of the sex trade, but I mean sex ed would definitely have to be a big part of your conversation in school. I mean, there's so many positives. Browdy Pierce for governor, bring back the whores.

SPEAKER_01 45:45

So we are filming two episodes today because we're trying to get because we're trying to get ahead for one. But uh for the next episode, I I did a real accidental deep dive, the tiny freeman in his run for Congress. So it's out of the tavern and company.

SPEAKER_02 46:00

So I don't feel like you are the next tiny freeman.

SPEAKER_01 46:03

Hey, we could go all the way to the White House on this. All right. So your your solution in the professionalism of this industry, when I am trying to provide real data about the economic impact of tourist railroads across the country, how many riders they, you know, call compared to Adironda or fucking Amtrak. Oh my gosh. Your solution is to just legalize prostitution, tax the hell out of it, and fund the steam choo-choo industry.

SPEAKER_03 46:37

Yeah. And and education. You gotta have education in there. How are you gonna get that through the voter base? Oh, dude, there's enough horny people out there. I think it would work. We live in Washington, damn it. You know, it was the Christian church that actually got prostitution illegal.

SPEAKER_00 47:00

Questions from our viewers?

SPEAKER_03 47:04

Anyway, what did you circle for questions from the viewers? You actually noted yours. Um, I'll ask you a question. Could y'all find an emissions grant to switch to CNG LP generators? Cleaner burning, possibly cheaper and quieter.

SPEAKER_01 47:18

So I actually went on a you go ahead and answer that. I did a deep dive into funding, and it was just you take it.

SPEAKER_03 47:27

Okay, so from the operational side of that, for so for the folks at home, the people that supply our steam locomotive fuel, we just had, I just had an hour-long conversation with the the owner, the owner's brother on the phone today. And they talked about where some of these folks had gone that direction and with like trucks and that other kind of thing. And that they did not get the power or the reliability out of it that they thought they would, so they ended up switching right back. That's interesting. I did some So the infrastructure's just not there to support it.

SPEAKER_01 47:58

I think I went on a little bit of a deep dive about like the, you know, like some of the clean emissions programs, like rebuilding locomotives. Um, I think Kelly Lynch did an environmental impact study on locomotives, on steam locomotives. It'd be interesting to have a newer environmental impact study done on oil-burning steam engines to see if that would meet the environmental criteria to make a case for some of the grant funding for clean burning fuel.

SPEAKER_03 48:28

He told me that there's several native tribes in Oregon that are trying to be very self-sufficient. And one of their things that they are looking at for power generation, and all the reservations have their hub, right? That town, what they're looking at is fire-driven steam power generation. That's so a hundred years ago. 100%. But him and I got into this real like in-depth conversation. Remember when we had the people come up and look at scrubbing the stacks for the steam locomotives to see how big of a carbon footprint that they put off. And come to find out the steam locomotive, if fired right and in the proper working order, has a smaller carbon footprint than the tier three diesel. Um, we got into that conversation, and he that's what brought that up. Is that there are so many things that they're looking at actually kind of going backwards on to the hundred-year-old technology because it just it per it performs better.

SPEAKER_01 49:26

Yeah. In so many, so many ways the issue is maintenance, right? And do your systems support the maintenance of it? Yeah, ours do. Um, but that would be a really, really weird grant application to try and get through. Um, obviously, we would have to do the due diligence and the research to make sure that it made sense. Right. But Ryan O'Reilly. I mean, we have made Mount Rainier Scenic Railroad great again based on if it's only stupid if it doesn't work. Most of our ideas are stupid.

SPEAKER_03 49:57

Ryan O asks, do people care if it's a steam engine? Because there are weirdos like me that will seek out any oddball power. Yeah, the general power. Eric and I answered that question in the last episode. So go back and listen to that. Okay. Cool. Good talk. Good talk. Yes, people care if it's a steam engine. Okay. We we got into the nitty-gritty of that. I want I want to knock that one. I know we were given three, but I want to knock that one off the table. One more question. You you pick.

SPEAKER_01 50:27

Do we want Chrissy? Yes and no. Hold on. I'm let me I'm gonna be more specific about this.

SPEAKER_03 50:37

Take a swig of tea. Rowdy makes good tea.

SPEAKER_01 50:44

Um, does Bethan want to be awarded a Chrissy Grant or does she not? And how is she going to feel in both situations?

SPEAKER_03 50:54

She's gonna feel terrible in both situations. If you win it or you get it, you're not. You're gonna feel terrible. We're all gonna sit. What's gonna happen is if we don't get it, we're all gonna sit back and go, ah, shit, we didn't get it. But then there's gonna be this itty-beatty little part of us that go, we dodged a bullet there because we're still trying to get on our feet from opening this place back up.

SPEAKER_02 51:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:14

If we do get it, then we're gonna sit back and go, holy shit, all the crap that people couldn't get done before, as in going to Morton and all the other kind of stuff, is gonna happen. And we got five years to make that happen while trying to figure out locomotives and passenger cars and keep the rest of the business running. It's gonna be, it's gonna be if we get it, it's gonna be a massive challenge. If we don't get it, it is also going to be a massive challenge.

SPEAKER_01 51:40

Which one's gonna make me feel worse?

SPEAKER_03 51:42

Probably getting it. I think so. Getting it is gonna make both of us feel worse because I mean, what was that conversation we had the other day that we don't have very many locomotives that could go out over the part of the railroad that hasn't seen a train on it in you know 20 years?

SPEAKER_01 51:54

Yeah, kind of need one. Rowdy and I were meeting and we we stuck our head in the shop, and Chris was in the firebox at the five. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 52:03

And we said, hey Chris. Go count some tubes. Go count some. Anyway, that's as far as we're gonna go with that because you don't want wild rumors getting out on the internet. Anyway, what's the next question?

SPEAKER_01 52:14

Um, I think that was three. Oh, that was the three that we were given. Here's here's a question for you. How much caffeine do we drink?

SPEAKER_03 52:21

I don't drink as much as I used to. You drink a fload. Yeah. I mean, long and the short of it. Yeah. I drink my one cup of coffee in the morning, and I have a couple of protein shakes, and I usually fuel myself off of food anymore. That hate and tobacco. Yeah. You on the other hand, there's two Red Bulls sitting on the table.

SPEAKER_01 52:43

Yeah, my gallbladder is saying I should probably cut down on those.

SPEAKER_03 52:45

I should probably cut down on those.

SPEAKER_01 52:47

That's my solution to getting a vacation. Anyway, thank you for tuning in to this episode of Off the Rails with Rowdy and Beth, and we're gonna film back-to-back episodes with more tea. Be sure to tune in for next week's episode. Uh where we drink all the tea history.

SPEAKER_00 53:00

And that wraps up this episode of Off the Rails. A huge thank you to our totally real, definitely not made up production crew. Sound designed by Microphone, catering by Cornelius Cobb, track maintenance provided by Rusty Switches, and marketing brilliance, courtesy of souvenir. I'm your host, reminding you to keep your hands inside the train at all times, because around here, things always go off the rails.