Fuel The Flow

The #1 Reason Clients Quit ft. Dr. Kasey Orvidas

• Valerie Feghali • Season 1 • Episode 17

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 41:46

Are you a health coach frustrated by clients who ghost you or self-sabotage?

In this episode of Fuel The Flow, Valerie Feghali sits down with Dr. Kasey Orvidas to reveal the psychology of weight loss for coaches. 

We dive deep into why meal plans fail without behavior change, how to shift clients from extrinsic to intrinsic motivation, and the science of reframing "laziness" as a met need. If you are ready to stop feeling like an imposter and start mastering client retention through evidence-based mindset coaching, this conversation is your blueprint.

Dr. Kasey Orvidas holds a Ph.D. in Psychology and is a certified health and fitness coach who bridges the gap between academic research and practical application. She shares her proven strategies for handling non-compliant clients, building autonomy, and creating lasting results that go beyond willpower.

In This Episode, We Discuss:

  • 00:00 Intro: Valerie introduces Dr. Kasey Orvidas and the critical importance of coaching psychology.
  • 01:11 Why Clients Don't Do the Work: Validating the frustration coaches feel when their perfect plans are ignored by clients.
  • 03:56 Empathy vs. Rigidity: How to find the delicate balance between being a supportive listener and holding firm, professional boundaries.
  • 07:29 Identity Shift: Strategies for moving clients from a "Fixed Mindset" (I can't change) to a "Growth Mindset" (I can learn).
  • 14:28 The Motivation Spectrum: Understanding the difference between guilt-driven (extrinsic) motivation and value-driven (intrinsic) motivation.
  • 17:45 Tapping Into Intrinsic Drives: Practical techniques to help clients discover the internal reasons that actually drive long-term adherence.
  • 20:19 Visualizing Progress: How to help clients recognize and celebrate "wins" that have nothing to do with the number on the scale.
  • 24:29 The Psychology of Self-Sabotage: Reframing "bad" behaviors as maladaptive solutions to valid needs rather than just moral failures.
  • 27:52 Breaking Bad Habits: Dr. Kasey shares the "Cheez-Its Strategy"—using friction to disrupt mindless eating patterns.
  • 31:08 Imposter Syndrome: How to maintain your confidence and authority as a coach, even when your clients are struggling or ghosting you.
  • 34:34 The First Session Protocol: The exact conversation you need to have to set expectations early and prevent client disappointment later.
  • 38:33 Dr. Kasey's Routine: Personal habits and self-talk strategies for maintaining a healthy mindset as a high-performing entrepreneur.

Resources Mentioned:

Connect with Dr. Kasey Orvidas:

Connect with Valerie Feghali:

Review the Podcast:

If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a 5-star review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify! Your support helps us reach more coaches and continue fueling the flow of the wellness industry.



SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's like the golden question, right? Like, how do we shift our clients' mindset so they can start to believe in themselves? Mindset in general is the lens that we're taking to see the world through. It's how we're assigning meaning to things, it's how we're making sense of things. So, really, one of your big goals as a coach is to point out bright spots and areas of progress.

SPEAKER_01

And the most rewarding coaching experiences are the ones with the clients who today our guest, Casey Orvidez, holds a PhD in psychology and is a certified health and fitness coach. Her expertise is in mindset and health behavior change. She has transformed hundreds of lives and minds in her coaching career while also being published in multiple peer-reviewed scientific journals for her research, exploring the relationship between our mindset and our health and fitness behaviors. After finding so much success within her own online coaching community, she created an accredited certification program called the Health Mindset Coaching Certification, teaching other coaches how to effectively use the science of mindset and psychology to develop lasting change with their clients. So let's go ahead and get into it. So often I hear from my coaches that they are frustrated with their clients just not following through with the plan, not adhering with the advice that they're giving to the their clients. And it's frustrating when as a coach, you feel like you almost care more about that client hitting their goals than they do, which I know and you know is not necessarily the case, but it can feel like that a lot of the times for the coach. So wanted to have you on to try to help us figure out how we can shift the mindset of our clients and also help the coach kind of get over that, you know, fear of like self-doubt and wondering whether or not they're the best coach or if they're leading in the right way. And so thank you so much for coming on today.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. I'm super excited to be here. And, you know, it it is probably this is me being very biased because this is the the coaches that I'm working with all of the time who are super frustrated, but I have to imagine like the most frustrating thing, especially when you have all of this knowledge and a lot of times really advanced knowledge and fitness and nutrition and metabolism and all these like niche specific things. And then you feel like I can't even use that knowledge because I can't even get my clients to submit a freaking chuck in form, you know? So it's it gets really, really tough too, because then it feels like am I just not a good coach? Do I just not know what I'm doing? Am I only capable of working with easy clients, which is which is really, really tough as a coach. And like again, having all of his knowledge and just feeling like you don't ever actually get to use it. So there are a lot of strategies and a lot of things you can do. And like that's like the first thing I want everybody to hear is that this isn't like a lost cause, your hands aren't completely tied. There is something that you can do about this and to improve things. Of course, that means you're always going to have some clients that are a little bit stickier, a little bit like harder to get through. But what I tell my students inside the health mindset coaching certification all the time is what if it went from 40 to 50% of your clients being really tricky, non-adherent, difficult, like lacking motivation, to only 10%. So you just have a very small handful, like how much different that would feel in your day-to-day, how much more enjoyable coaching would be. I mean, we have students all the time who are saying, like, this actually made me fall in love with coaching again because I know what to say to these people. And I don't just feel like, okay, it'll just try again next week. And that is kind of becomes like the repeat phrase over and over again for so many coaches. It's like, okay, well, that didn't work. Let's just try again. Like, don't beat yourself out. Kind of almost like being just like the cheerleader coach and like, let's brush things under the rug. But that is actually usually making things worse.

SPEAKER_01

So let's let's talk about that a little bit. So that's one question I had for you is where do coaches find the balance between being empathetic for their clients and not, and then also being a little bit more um rigid, right? So, like wanting their clients say, this is kind of what we're trying to do. This is our plan essentially, but at the same time allowing for some of that flexibility to happen on their end. So balance between empathy and also structure.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's sort of I think about like different coaching avatars. Are you like the cheerleader or like the mom type of coach? Like, no, everything's fine, it's gonna be okay. Like, don't worry, let's just try again. Like last week was last week, now we have a fresh week. Or are you more of like the drill sergeant coach where it's like, you hired me for a reason? Like, remember what those reasons are. Like, do this for yourself, like all these things. And like, yes, those are kind of extreme examples, but people who are listening right now are like, yeah, I could see where I kind of fall into one of those buckets or kind of move back and forth depending on the client or whatever. And I do think it's important to take what your clients are saying to you seriously. Don't take it personally, because that's where we can kind of like get into the whole, like, I'm just not a good coach. This is my own fault. And I don't, and I don't want you to feel that way, but I do want you to still realize that you can take responsibility and like take your power back in a way, right? So, how do we balance this, like like showing empathy and validating our clients' concerns and what their struggles are while also actually helping them continue to move the needle, right? Because we don't want to just again brush things under the rug all of the time. So I think there really is a healthy balance with that. And it's almost a difficult question to answer because it so much depends on the context with that specific client, your relationship with that client. Everyone who's listening right now can know where if they had a client, someone that they've become pretty close with, they've been working with them for a year and a half, you might be able to push the tough love a little bit more versus someone who you just started working with and has a lot of self-limiting beliefs. Like if we go that direction, they're just gonna feel worse about themselves and then they're gonna stop checking in with you because they don't want to like burden you with their inability to stick to the plan. So it's really a lot about reading the client situation, the relationship, building that relationship so that you can have maybe some of those tougher conversations. But it's also always needs to come from the lens of like, what is actually gonna be most productive in this conversation? Is this actually potentially gonna push this client away? I talk a lot about growth versus fixed mindset. So if we have a client who is struggling with a fixed mindset, and at the end of the day, it really just means that they don't believe that they can actually do this, they can't lose weight, they can't keep it off, they can't stick to the plan, that they're not the type of person to track macros or the type of person to go to the gym consistently. If they're really in that place and you're just going to them and like dropping the hammer, all it's going to do is push them further down into that place because they're going to see your words as evidence that they're not capable. Like, see, even my coach knows that I can't do this. And I I knew it all along. Why did I even sign up to work with this coach? Like, this is just, I've never been the type of person to stick with anything. You know, all of that. Versus if you have a client who has a growth mindset and they're showing signs of like, no, I know I can do this. I just need the right strategies, and I'm really excited and I'm excited to grow and learn more and better understand what's going to work for me and what's not, then maybe there's a time and a place for a conversation like that. So there's a lot of sort of like reading the room in a way when it comes to understanding how to communicate with your clients too.

SPEAKER_01

So talk to us a little bit. So with this kind of growth versus fixed mindset, I think the way I see it is like identity, right? Like who we are as a person. Like, are we identifying as somebody who can't do XYZ or does vice versa, does XYZ? And so how do we break away from that? These people who do have a more of a fixed mindset, how can we kind of shift and mold that to help them understand that they are not necessarily tied to that identity and that can change?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's like the golden question, right? Like, how do we shift our clients' mindset so they can start to believe in themselves, they can start doing things, that even when things get challenging, they see it as like a welcome challenge and they're wanting to figure it out with you. Like that's like the dream scenario, right? It's not that clients are just like absolutely 100%, 100% of the time, but it's even when they're at 50%, they're willing to talk to you about it and they want to learn and they want to grow and they want to develop and they want to do better. Like that, those are the best client relationships. So, with that said, when we're talking about, yeah, like identity and mindset, I do think we're talking about different concepts when we're saying identity versus mindset. They can very much be wrapped up. For instance, like when I was saying I'm just not the type of person, we if we hear a client saying that, you might be like ding ding-ding, that sounds very fixed mindset that you're seeing yourself as this type of person feels very unchangeable. It just is the way that you are, and there's nothing that you can do about it. But that doesn't necessarily mean that they identify as a non-exerciser, you know, that like I could never do those things. So again, there's just like so much nuance to all these conversations. But when we talk about growth versus fixed mindset, what we're really looking at is mindset in general is the lens that we're taking to see the world through. It's how we're assigning meaning to things, it's how we're making sense of things. So you can see very quickly how a client with a fixed mindset versus a growth mindset, that's almost anything that they're getting from you, any kind of feedback they're getting from themselves, from other people, it's all filtering through that lens. So when it comes to the question of, well, if I have this client who is showing signs of a fixed mindset, how do I get them to more of a growth mindset? And again, like the golden question, such a big question. And it can go a handful of different ways. Like we could talk about motivation. Like, are they are they mentioning motivation and how they have low motivation or lack of motivation or they can't seem to stay motivated? In that example, it might be, okay, I'm noticing a fixed mindset in this client. They're mentioning motivation a lot. I should probably better understand first and foremost what they actually think motivation is. And I think that's where a lot of coaches don't go to ever, is like trying to understand what their clients even mean and what they're saying with things. And instead, it's especially for coaches who have been doing this for a long time, it's it's very easy to make assumptions that you know what that client means, but everyone's going to assign different meaning to things. So even just asking them, like, can you tell me a little bit more about the lack of motivation that you're experiencing and how much of an impact you actually think that's making it for you when it comes to your health and fitness behaviors? And one client could answer those questions so much different than another client. So, better understanding like where they're coming from, why they're saying those things. And we really want to just kind of build awareness around why they have those beliefs in the first place and where that's coming from and unpack that with them. And honestly, sometimes that awareness can be powerful enough to already start to shift their mindset and believe things differently. Like if you're having these conversations with them and they come back and they're like, Yeah, I guess I believe that just because I've tried so many things in the past and nothing has worked for me before. So I'm definitely pretty just like down on myself and my abilities. But you know, come to think of it, we're doing things so different than I've ever done before. So I guess I can't really compare it. I mean, that would be like a beautiful way for a client to respond. But the goal is to kind of like guide them towards those realizations instead of you just like saying, oh, this is how it is, this is how you feel, this is this is what we need to do, and instead kind of put the client in the driver's seat. It's a big part of just behavior change coaching in general, is building that autonomy and helping our clients come up with solutions on their own, come to realizations on their own, rather than us just like pegging them with those things. So, yeah, really long story short, I think the first step is helping clients recognize and guiding them towards this realization that it is their mindset, it is their beliefs. There is some of this stuff that's holding them back or like things that they've been holding on for a really long time that would need to change in the first place before we say, here, here's how we're going to change your mindset. And really, the reality is as coaches, we should not be doing the shifting. We should not be changing our clients' mindset. Instead, we should be asking questions and communicating and guiding our clients to start to do some of that shifting on their own. Like I hear examples all of the time from my students in the certification who are like, wow, look at this message. This client just came to me and said that they think that their mindset's holding them back. I didn't even have to go there. So the goal is really that they are coming up with all of that. You're building that awareness, and that's where the shifting really starts to happen.

SPEAKER_01

I know one thing that I have to ask both my clients and myself a lot is when somebody says, like, I don't have time for that, or you know, I can't do that because of XYZ, usually I ask oftentimes to myself, what are you prioritizing before this? Right. And sometimes I feel like that's a good way of helping people recognize, like, oh, I just said I don't have time for this, but I'm actually prioritizing, you know, scrolling on my phone for 20 minutes when I get when I get home or doing this. Like, where are the kind of those things that are taking precedent over the thing that you want to do to reach your goals, right? And I think sometimes when people can recognize that too from like a tangible standpoint, it can help with creating that mindset shift that, like, oh, wait, I do have the time or I do have the energy or what, you know, whatever it may be to do that, to do the thing that she was asking me to do. Right.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. I I like that perspective. And something I I talk about a lot, especially with the motivation conversation, when people are, oh, you just you don't need motivation, you need dedication or you need your determination or whatever whatever, whatever the conversation is, ultimately you're always motivated to do something, right? You just might not be motivated to do the thing that is actually goal supportive. You're motivated to scroll in your phone, you're motivated to watch Netflix, you're motivated to like get in your pajamas and like pour yourself a glass of wine. And like I think it's better understanding that, like, no, the motivation is there. It just might be in the wrong direction, right? So then it becomes like, what is it about that thing that makes you want to prioritize it versus the other thing and like really getting into that too?

SPEAKER_01

Talk to us a little bit about the differences between kind of external motivation and our internal motivation.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, motivation really is on a spectrum. And we're talking about like internal versus external, the research savvy terms are really more intrinsic and extrinsic motivation, which a lot of people have heard of. So when we're talking about extrinsic motivation, it's kind of like on that far side of the spectrum compared to intrinsic motivation. Extrinsic being yes, more external, like it's pressure from other people, other situations, other things. And then the intrinsic side, really the most pure and best form of motivation is intrinsic motivation from a sense of personal enjoyment and satisfaction. So you're motivated to do it because it makes you feel good, because you like it, because it's fun, right? Like they're the same thing with like pajamas, glass of wine. Like you're very intrinsically motivated to do that because it makes you feel really good, right? So it's like, how do we get that same sense with some of these other behaviors as well? And when I say spectrum too, it's not just those two types of motivation. Like we're really talking, there's a lot of different types of motivation between those two, from like external regulation to integrated regulation, introjected regulation, identified regulation, but we don't necessarily need to get into all of the terminology. It's more so just understanding that not all of these types are good or bad. And the reality is, yes, we should be working towards more of this intrinsic motivation, but there's other things too that we should consider, like again, talking about identity. People who identify as healthy, fit individuals are likely more motivated to meal prep, go to the gym, make sure they get their steps in because it's part of who they are. And if they weren't to do those things, that's gonna feel inconsistent with how they see themselves or thinking more about personal values and beliefs. Like I really value the health of my family. And so, because of that, I need to show up as a specific role model. I need to make sure that there's healthy options on the dinner table. So, because of that personal value of the health of your family, then you're noticing that these other behaviors become more motivating and it's something that you want to do. And I also need to make a point that all extrinsic motivation isn't necessarily just like inherently bad. Where it can become an issue is if that's pretty much the majority and mainly where you're striving your motivation from. Because it can be very short term, then someone who just like wants to lose 10 pounds because they're going on vacation over the summer, they're going to be motivated for that short-term period of time. But then what happens after that vacation? Like, what's going to keep you going? So it's one thing to have like intrinsic motivation in this like personal beliefs or values or an identity kind of based motivation. And then every once in a while toss in some extrinsic motivation, like, oh, I just like really want to look good in a swimsuit for this summer or whatever. But it's coming out of this like foundation of these other pieces of motivation too. So without getting any further in the weeds, it's just it's very important to understand that motivation is not just motivation. And I say all the time, it's not usually about really never about just having more motivation. It's really trying to just cultivate more of the right type.

SPEAKER_01

So can you give us like a tangible real-world example of somebody who you're trying to maybe find, I don't know, find the right type is the right terminology or like recognize that in themselves for their reasoning for wanting to do this? Like, how do we tap into more of that intrinsic motivation for our clients?

SPEAKER_00

So it can definitely start with even just a little bit of like education, like this, you know, like if you're talking to a client and they're just like, I'm just not motivated all the time, and I know you're not supposed to be motivated, and I know that all these things, and then like having this like open conversation with them about where they're getting their motivation from. Like, is it from external sources or internal sources? Like you could even turn this into like a fun little PDF worksheet or something, you know, um, and try to have them like lay out like what parts of these they what parts of going to the gym, meal prepping, you know, you can choose the specific behaviors are internally motivating for you versus like what is the external motivation to do that, whether it's like meeting a friend at the gym or something like that, and kind of helping them again just bring more awareness to where their motivation is coming from. And what's great about this is they may say, I have no motivation. Then you have them do something like this. And what do you mean? There's there's plenty of pieces of motivation on here. And then it can turn into a conversation of these more internal, we say, like self-determined or autonomous types of motivation, or what's going to keep you going, even when you're feeling like you don't have motivation, right? Like that's really where the like dedication, determination kind of conversation comes into play. It's not really that you have to be like determined all of the time. It's that you have to be more self-determined. It just has to be more about like it's coming from you and not from other people in external circumstances. Yeah, if you have a have a client who says they're struggling with motivation or you feel like you're noticing that, you can open up the conversation with talking about these different types of motivation, have them tell you where they're getting it from or where they're seeking it from. It could also then, if we're talking about like identity or values and priorities, having them talk more about, like, hey, let's talk about what is actually a value to you, what is actually a priority to you, what type of person do you think that you are compared to the type of person who can stick to the plan, you know, and like really try to like get more information out of all of those different pieces. And again, so much of this can just like lead into really, really productive conversations.

SPEAKER_01

As far as, I mean, we've all had that client who you can tell like they are making progress. However, they don't recognize perhaps that progress that they're making, whether it be towards their weight loss goal or their, you know, fitness goal or or anything else, right? But how can we help our clients kind of recognize, hey, you've come, you've come this far and show them the difference between, you know, where they started, where they are now to help I don't know if motivation is the right word after this conversation, but to help move them further towards their ultimate goal.

SPEAKER_00

As humans, we're pretty crappy at recognizing our own strengths and our own wins. Like anyone listening to this podcast, like Valerie, you probably agree. Like we're very much quick as business owners to be like, okay, did that thing on to the next thing without really celebrating that stuff. And your clients are no different. So, really, one of your big goals as a coach is to point out bright spots and areas of progress and notice when your clients even maybe say something like, Oh, I didn't have a really great week, but I did still get my steps in and I got my water intake was up and like really grabbing onto that instead of just being like, Good job. Now let's work on the stuff you need to fix. Good job. Now let's see the stuff that you didn't do well and how we can get into that. We as humans have a negativity bias, and we're so quick to focus on the negative, the things that are going wrong, the things that we need to do better. We all get stuck in their spirals. So, as a coach with your clients, it's really, really imperative that you're looking for those bright spots and the things that are going well. And as far as like recognizing progress over time, there are like some ways you can systematize this as an example. So perhaps maybe like on your intake forums, you have them talk. About things that they're currently struggling with, things that they would like to do better with. And you can reflect back. Don't lose that intake form from your clients. If you notice that they're like not really recognizing their progress, even though it's clear to you that like things are definitely changing, going back to that original intake form or original maybe sales call that you had with them and pulling exact words and data from them that came from their mouths and saying, like, hey, remember when you first signed up to work with me and you were talking about just like how difficult it is for you to hit your protein intake? That is something that you have not struggled with in the last like three to four months. And helping them see, even if it's not like everyone wants to see, like weight loss progress or body composition progress or all of those things, even if it's not that, it still really helps to build momentum and also cultivate more of a growth mindset if they can see where they are making progress and they have changed and things are getting better. There's also like um another kind of like tangible thing that you can do as far as inserting um like scaling questions into check-in forms. So what's something that you're currently struggling with on a scale of like one to 10? And then over time, like maybe continuing to come back to that and show them, hey, you used to be a three, and now you are consistent like six to eight. That's a huge jump. So being able to really seek where you can make this more tangible and really show them because otherwise, if you're just like, what do you mean you haven't made progress? You're definitely making progress because of this and that and the other thing. But you're their coach, and it doesn't really matter, honestly, what you see in them, they need to see it in themselves. So just like consistently coming back to like, how can I sort of prove to them with the data that we have during this coaching experience that they have made progress?

SPEAKER_01

And the more you can do that, that scaling questions thing on the intake and on your follow-ups, because that I feel like people need to see numbers. And when they're relying on, let's say the scale or, you know, whatever it may be, that's only that's one piece of data, right? And so I love that scaling questions. It gives them something like to actually see forward progress, whether it be um, you know, even just in their ability to, like you say, it's say stay focused on their protein goal, even if it's not necessarily a body composition thing quite yet, right? It just showing them that yes, you're making changes, your habits are shifting. I think that can be huge. Yeah, like why is it, because I do this to myself all the time, that clients or ourselves are like making progress, seeing the progress that they're making, and then throwing it in the fire. Like, what what is that?

SPEAKER_00

Oh my gosh. It it can be so many things. And I I almost feel bad because I feel like with every single one of your questions, I'm like, well, it we could go 17 different directions. So I'm just gonna pick one. Um, but yeah, but the truth is, gosh, I I really do want to come back to mindset because where is it in yourself that you're thinking, like, even though I'm doing the things and I'm I'm making forward progress and whatever? Like I was even talking to you off air about how I'm like, I have just had a day where I just don't want to do anything. I can't stay focused. And so I am self-sabotaging by being like, you know what? Screw it. I'm gonna go like sit on the couch and read my book for a little bit when I have work I need to be doing, you know? And I think in that case too, it's like, are we talking about self-sabotage or are we just talking about like sort of like a blip? And are we then labeling it as self-sabotage and saying it's this really bad thing? And then once we start going down that spiral of like, I'm doing this to myself, I can't stay focused, I can't do these things, I keep getting in my own way, or is it just a okay, that hour of the day, not so great, but that's a drop in the ocean for my entire week, my month, my whatever, you know? So some of it is just like mindset as far as like reframing and seeing it differently than I am self-sabotaging, you know. Um, on that note, though, when it comes to self-sabotage, we're thinking about our clients and health and fitness behaviors and people, yeah, getting in their own way and saying, like, no, I'm only gonna have like two drinks when I go to dinner with my friends, and then they end up staying out until three o'clock in the morning and they feel terrible the next day, and then they're feeling guilty and shameful and all of this stuff. And yeah, that's self-sabotaging their efforts for sure. But I think kind of comes back to what we were talking about before, too, is better understanding like what is self-serving about the self-sabotage? Like, what are you getting out of doing that? So if we use that example of like two drinks at dinner turned into two o'clock in the morning and feeling like crap the whole day, skipping the workout, all of the things, then what was it about that evening that was good for you? And it's kind of like a counterintuitive question that you can use with your clients all any time, really, is like what good is coming from this maladaptive behavior, right? And you have to be kind of like careful of how you say that because you don't want it to come off as like condescending, like what what good is this doing you? You know, like that's not what we're trying to get at. But truly, like, hey, you wouldn't be doing this if it wasn't serving you in some way, if it wasn't benefiting you, you weren't getting something good out of it because otherwise you wouldn't do it, right? So, like really helping them become more aware and recognize why they're self-sabotaging, like what good is actually coming from the self-sabotage, because we're so quick to just be like, no, it's bad entirely. Well, it wouldn't it can't be. There has to be something that we're getting from it, otherwise we wouldn't do it. So I think so, yeah, so much of this just comes back down to awareness and trying to figure out what that is, because there is no one blanket answer as to why people self-sabotage, right? I think it comes down to a lot of different factors, but that can be a really big piece of it.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. So let's let's put it into practice. So if I said, like, I'm working from home, I want to have three balanced meals a day, I want to stop like snat like stress stacking, right? In between sessions or whatever it may be. And then I find myself doing it, right? And then I find myself all of a sudden like downing my kids, Jesus. If you're using that example, so what would be some examples with the with that for the good that comes from that? Like maybe that person is seeking what yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So then I I hear this example and I'm like, okay, we could we could talk about is there like a emotional eating thing kind of going on here? Like you're trying to fill a void, like having that time in between sessions is I need to like continue to busy myself with something, and so it becomes snacking. Or is it you're stressed between those sessions and you're feeling like I need to fill that time with something productive and that's stressing you out. And so, like, I need to just again go do something, fill that void, or um, in some ways sort of like mask it by eating instead of having to face doing things or being productive or that like lull period between sessions, anything like that. Um, so we could go that direction. We could also talk about habit formation. So if this is something that you've just like consistently done, like I get off an hour-long session and I have 30 minutes in between, I go to the pantry. And that's just like this automatic thing that you're not even thinking about, then how do we kind of disrupt that pattern? I'm not a big fan of the like, we'll just throw away the cheez-its. Don't keep Cheez-Its in your house if you can't like have self-control around them. But instead, how do we just like create some buffer between that? Even if it's the cheez-its now live out in the garage on a shelf, right? If your kids don't need them at any time, then like maybe that's an option for you. Or even just putting on the top shelf of the pantry where you have to like get out a stool in order to get them. Just make it a little bit more difficult, like increase the friction to doing it. And what can be really helpful there is now that we've created this pause in between, it gives you the time to make a different decision. Whereas before it's just like open up the pantry, they're right in front of your face, you're grabbing a handful, and then before you know it, you're like halfway through the box and you didn't even mean to do it. Whereas now you have to get out the stool, you have to do all this stuff. And in that time, you might be thinking, do I actually really even need this? Or another example could be you just set a rule for yourself. You can have the Cheez Its, but you have to take out the Cheez-Its, put them into a bowl, sit down, have no distractions, and then and then enjoy the Cheez-Its. And you know how many people are like, well, I don't want to do it that way. Well, it's like then you didn't you clearly don't actually really want it. It's doing something else for you than actually like fueling you, right? Um, so yeah, habit formation. We could talk about the emotional eating piece. I like that pattern disruption.

SPEAKER_01

I think that that's a really good tangible tool. It's like, right? Just yeah, okay, maybe you have to read like five pages of a book before you're allowed to eat cheeses, right? Like just something, yeah, to make it not so subconscious and make it a little bit more um of a choice that you're doing that you're making. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Or it could even be, yeah, drink eight ounces of water before you do it. And so just like during that time, you're you're pausing, you're putting a break in the city. That makes a lot of sense. I love that.

SPEAKER_01

Love that. We talked a lot about, you know, how do we help the client? How do we get them on a better path in regards to their, you know, finding their intrinsic motivation and being able to stick with, you know, their their plan and finding the autonomy? But what about the coach? Because sometimes, like we talked about in the beginning, the coach can start to feel really frustrated. And that leads to some limiting beliefs, maybe or self-doubt for them. So, how can a coach, when they have a very quote unquote difficult client, how can they stay aligned with their goals and continue to kind of um be confident in coaching their other clients as well?

SPEAKER_00

Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. It can, it can definitely kick you down a little bit and knock you down a few notches in your coaching confidence when you just feel like you keep coming back to this same client with the same issues and it's been like six months now. Like, how are we still on this? And especially then if you have the client who's coming back and saying, like, why haven't I made progress yet? Or I really wish I was further along. I think again, what I said at the beginning of like take it seriously, don't take it personally. You have to remember that these clients are probably more down on themselves than they are blaming you for the lack of progress, right? It's rarely, honestly, that this client's like, I'm so pissed at you because I'm not making more progress. Like they know that they're holding themselves back. They want to make more progress, and they're not necessarily like saying this is entirely your fault if they are like that. That is not a very, that's a very rare thing, right? So remembering that as the coach is so important. So you can kind of like recenter yourself of this person is not mad at me. But and it's so hard for coaches because we're all like, we're helpers. That's why we're in this profession. So it's gonna be so hard to not just like see yourself as the one who needs to take full responsibility. And yes, it is this, it's the whole two-way straight thing, but I also want you to take responsibility as a coach and really see it as more of a okay, this is a tricky situation. This is not as easy as I've maybe had it with clients in the past who have just I've given them the plan and they just stick to it and like that's so nice. But the most rewarding coaching experiences are the ones with the clients who struggle the most. So getting them over those hurdles, over the humps, helping them recognize these things and even make a small amount of progress, it makes is such a big difference for them compared to those easy clients who are just like, you know, we have the clients who are coaches themselves and they're not even they're just looking for accountability and someone else to write their plan because they don't want to do it themselves. Like, that's not as rewarding, you know? Sure, it's easy, but is that really why you got into coaching is to just help the clients who could already do it themselves anyway. And I think remembering too that the clients who are struggling with consistency, lack of motivation, like those are the people that need your help the most. So it's really like it's a lot of reframing this stuff and seeing the challenge as like an opportunity for you to get better and you to try different things and get creative and ultimately see the most rewarding results. Both they get to see it and then think that's your result as well, right? So so much of it, I think, is just that reframe and leaning into challenge and honestly having a growth mindset yourself and not seeing it as like this makes it clear that I'm not a good coach. It's like, no, this is just a challenging situation and I gotta get a little bit creative and do things differently than maybe I've had to do before.

SPEAKER_01

As far as being kind of like prepping people for this, so I think a lot of times the coaches, when they first start, they especially when they're new coaches and they're bringing on clients, it's almost like they want to like show them everything they know on the first session and the second session, and they're like trying to over-educate, right? Is there something that you would recommend on the first session, in the second session, maybe, that a coach do to kind of set these, not necessarily boundaries, but these expectations of how it's gonna progress is going to look, what progress actually is, and how they can start kind of recognizing that in themselves?

SPEAKER_00

Expectation setting is something that I talk about constantly with my students. And it really is like one of those things that if you do it right, you are setting yourself up for so much more success and your clients so much more success, versus we've all been there with our clients three to six months down the line, and now they're suddenly like upset with themselves that they're not making more progress. You're like, well, how much progress did you think you were going to make? And they're like, they they've lost 10 pounds and they thought they were gonna lose 30. And you're like, in what world? But it's because you never had that conversation, right? I had a health and fitness coaching company for years and years and years. This is actually 2025, it is the first year that I am just solely focused on coaching coaches and the certification and not one-on-one coaching. So I've been in the trenches for a long time, been doing this for a long time. Something that we did at my fitness coaching company is inside the intake form, we actually had something called an expectation agreement. And it was one of those things where they would have to read line by line and like put their initials next to each line that they agree to it. And it were, it was statements like, I understand that even if I don't have a very good week or I don't stick to the plan, that these are the best times to still check in with my coach, you know. So like things like that. And then the coaches on my team would also then review that and talk to the client more about it. So that was more along the lines of, I want you to still communicate with me, even if you're having a rough week, even if times are hard, even if everything feels like it's not going to plan, that's when you need to communicate with me more, kind of like on along the lines of those expectations. But then also having a conversations about what do you expect from me as your coach? And what can I expect from you as the client? And also, yes, what are you really looking to achieve, maybe in the first three months and then the next six months, depending on how long their contract is with you, you could go, you know, up to 12 months or whatever that looks like, so that you can really hear from them because they may say, I don't really know. I just want to make the most amount of progress. It's like, okay, but then we need to have a conversation about what that realistically could look like and how that would make you feel. So maybe even a conversation of, okay, if this, you get a new client, they want to lose 30 pounds, and you say, okay, at the three-month mark, we will probably just be still getting into really establishing some strong behaviors and getting into things and really getting to know each other and all of that. If you're only a few pounds down by three months, how is that going to make you feel? Like really getting ahead of it. And I think coaches are afraid to have these conversations because they don't want to feel have their clients feel like they're they're not going to make any progress or they want it to go faster. But it's really important and it's also very good from like a trust building perspective, so that everybody is kind of on the same page. Because I think everyone would rather have those uncomfortable conversations up front rather than three months down the line have a client who's like unhappy with their results. So yeah, I can talk so much about expectation setting because it really is so important in any relationship in your life.

SPEAKER_01

I wholeheartedly agree with that. I think those expectations are just massive because if people are coming into it with a totally different idea of what they're going to get out of it than what's either possible or what you expect. And then you're only finding that out a month or two into the coaching relationship, like you've broken, you've already broken that relationship. And so I think that that is so, so spot on. Last question for you. What are some daily routines that you have that you do every single day that helps to keep you in the right mindset?

SPEAKER_00

Good one. I actually I just did a podcast episode on my own show that was things I say to myself in the mirror. So, like one of those, like, how am I coaching my own mindset, basically? And something that I recognize that I do, oh, there's like two directions I can go with this. First is if I notice any like negative feedback to myself coming up or negative self-talk or any moment of like, you can't do anything. Like today, right? I had just a very unfocused, not very productive work day. So I can get in my head and go, like, why did you waste so much time today? You didn't have a lot of calls on your calendar. This could have been so much better. And I will catch myself when I do say those things, and it takes time to be able to get to this. Catch myself and go, is that actually true? Is that actually true that I'm just like not a productive person, that I really needed to like spend more time here? Or like, what's what's the reality? Sure, I had a less productive day, but like yesterday freaking rocked, right? So maybe it's okay that today was a little bit less, and ultimately it's Tuesday. I still got Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. If I need to work on Saturday, I could work on Saturday. So, like, what's the what's the reality of the situation? Kind of like bringing myself back to that. So that's something that I'm constantly kind of like adjusting with myself and thoughts that are coming up. It's where did that come from? Why did I, why did I think that way? What does that actually mean? Is that actually true? Doing that a lot. In addition, I'm constantly thinking about what's going to make me feel best in this moment. So if I have a day like today that was a little bit less productive, it's okay, well, what's going to make me feel better now? And I actually said when we got on this podcast, was like, I'm gonna feel really good after this because it's a solid hour of where I really am feeling productive. And then I also know that I'm gonna get off this call and probably still be riding that momentum, right? So paying attention to those things, or took myself on a walk earlier this morning because it's like, if I can't focus on a task, at least I can go outside, get some fresh air, like feel it'll make me feel better and then I can come back. So constantly kind of like looking at will this thing, if I do it, make me feel better or make me feel worse? If I'm feeling this way right now, what do I need to do to make myself feel better? And if I choose this other option, will it make me feel better or worse? So just constantly assessing both decisions I'm making during the day and also my thoughts. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So just not letting those thoughts come and go, but really trying to figure out why those thoughts are coming in the first place and what to do about them, right? How to make it better.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you so much. This was so great. I think our audience is really going to eat this up because it directs, it ties right into how they're coaching and how they're showing up as a leader themselves. And so thank you so much, Casey, for coming on. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for having me. I hope you enjoyed our conversation from today. Any links we discussed will be in the show notes below. Also, we would be incredibly grateful if you would leave us a five star review. This helps us keep the podcast going so that we can continue to provide value for all of you. I hope we see you on the next one.