Episode 42 - Batman and Robin Year One by Mark Waid: Why Does Two-Face Hate Orphans?

Hi everyone, in this episode you finally get to meet our channel artist.  We chat about our favorite books and focus on Batman and Robin Year one, by Mark Waid!

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Comic Books Beyond would like to thank:  The Crew of the Talking Comics Podcast, Brandon McNulty, Lisa and Brad from Comic Book Couples Counseling, Alex Jaffe, Jeremy Whitley and Jimmy Gaspero. 

Friend of and Inspiration of the Podcast, Mr. Bob Reyer of the Talking Comics Podcast, could use a little help. He currently has a Go Fund Me going, which I wanted to share.  If you are at all interested in helping out the Pod, please consider Donating to his Go Fund Me. He's a gem of a person, and a genuine human. 

https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-bob-reyer-a-hero-in-need/cl/d?utm_campaign=pd_ss_icons&utm_content=amp20_control&utm_medium=customer&utm_source=copy_link&attribution_id=sl%3A9ed7a0a3-5830-446c-9076-e45817964dd5&ts=1772029214

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Hey everybody, welcome to the Comic Books Beyond Podcast. We have a very special episode today, an episode that I've been wanting to do kind of since we've uh started this little show. I'm your host, and we uh have a guest host, co-host, guest, friend of the pod, person who works on the pod. We have one of my bestest friends in the whole wide world, my little brother, for lack of better words, my friend Mike. Say hi to everybody. Hey everyone. It's nice to meet you.

SPEAKER_01 0:30

For the record, little brother by like two weeks.

SPEAKER_00 0:33

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Little little brother. Like we our moms aren't the same, our dads aren't the same, but you know, we've known each other for what did we mean we were nine?

SPEAKER_01 0:42

Um I fourth grade is probably nine, ten, right?

SPEAKER_00 0:48

Yeah, so we we were like n we were both younger because like we were um not at the month where you like get forced to wait back a year. Like we were started the school at the normal time where we were the young kids of the class. But when I was nine, uh I met another kid that was super nice, and you were like super well liked in fourth grade, which was like the opposite of me. And you were also about as quiet as I was. And I think in fifth grade we uh we we were in the same class in fifth grade. Uh we knew each other from like baseball the year before, I think. And in fifth grade, we uh shared the co-award for the most well-behaved students of that class. And uh yeah, we're definitely the most well-behaved people we know these days, right? It was all downhill from there, folks. Uh but anyway, you know, we we shared a love for, you know, like most nerd culture, the Simpsons, and the same kind of music. And honestly, about 16 months ago, I think it was. You're the one who, and I've told this story on the show a few times. I got a text from a send uh from a friend that said, Hey man, we should read a graphic novel together every month. And I'm like, that sounds awesome. And uh you didn't know it at the time, but that was the uh the impregnation of comic books beyond.

SPEAKER_01 2:00

I feel I feel privileged because you know, un unknowingly, I'm a labeler to comics, so it was just after I started, and then I was like, I know a way to keep me on track and for us to do something together since you moved.

SPEAKER_00 2:12

So Yeah, my fault. I I moved away from our hometown four years ago, and now most of the time we get to hang out digitally or when when we get to see each other like once a month. Now, I don't know if you remember this story, but I get to tell this one, and I've been like saving this one for almost 40 episodes now. So uh, do you remember when we were like 13 or 14 and we were playing Magic The Gathering in Your Bedroom? There was an episode of Justice League on though the cartoon from the or the 2000s. Uh and great run. Oh my god, it was so good. Um I miss I miss that style of animation on like those shows. Yes, a hundred percent. Um, so I don't know if you remember that time, but uh I look up the up at the the TV and I go, hey, who's that character? And you go, Oh, that's Martian Manhunter. He's kind of like Superman, but he's also a psychic and shapeshifter. And honestly, that was like a watershed moment for me where I'm like, oh my god, there's more characters besides like Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, and Green Lantern. And like that's one of those moments that was just like stuck in my head for almost 30 or almost 20 or more than 20 years now. Do you remember that by any chance? I'll be straight.

SPEAKER_01 3:22

I'm making a drink away a lot of a lot of memory, but um I do remember many a time of us playing Magic in in my bedroom, so we always had whatever whatever channel, whether it be usually it was Cartoon Network, because they would run you know the con the comic book shows.

SPEAKER_00 3:41

Yep. We always had like either Futurama or Family Guy or The Simpsons, or like we were both big animation guys growing up. Like when you think about it, like most of what we watched was animated stuff, but late 90s, early 2000s was the time for animation. It was such a good time to grow up. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:57

Honestly, it really hasn't changed for what I for what I consume me wise.

SPEAKER_00 4:02

Yeah. Like we last time we hung out, we uh drank uh several alcoholic beverages and watched The Simpsons the early days, because that was a good time.

SPEAKER_01 4:11

Oh, the first 10 seasons of The Simpsons.

SPEAKER_00 4:13

After Oakley and Weinstein leave, it's doesn't it's not as good. It's still watchable for a while. Like it's still watchable now, it's just those those like first eight, ten seasons were magic.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

I was uh watching early Futurama recently too. Uh one of the consulting producers were Oakley and Weinstein, which uh I think really attributes to how great the beginning of Futurama was.

SPEAKER_00 4:34

Yeah, that's it's I think that's I think they finished their run on the Simpsons at that point, because that would have been like right around that time, like eight or nine, they would have left, and they were probably going over to Futurama to do that instead. Do you ever watch um on YouTube the channel of the Real Gyms? I think it's called. No, I can't say I've I've seen that. Uh it's this channel. I don't know if it's 100% dedicated to Simpsons, but he does like Simpsons history of like the production and like different characters and stuff. It's really cool to watch his retrospectives. I definitely recommend like having a few drinks and checking that out if you want like just more Simpson stuff. Oh, I obviously. That sounds great. I'm definitely gonna look that up. Yeah, I'll I'll link it in our Discord. Uh oh, and by the way, users, uh quick quick news. I'm calling you guys Beyonders now. That's your new nickname for all listeners out here. So if you like the show, you're a beyonder. We don't have a public Discord yet. Uh we probably will at some point. That's one thing we're kind of working on. Uh, one thing I wanted to have Mike on the call for was just talking about future plans because Mike's done a lot of the planning with me, and I want to, you know, make sure he's as involved as possible. Like we had people, our last two guests who were just kind of joining the show and the production, their supporters and everything. And I think the plan is uh if if I could never podcast alone again, that'd be great. I don't know if that's ever gonna happen, but you know, I'd I want to have those those people on as much as possible. We have one we probably shouldn't announce it yet, should we? We shouldn't announce the next big one, right?

SPEAKER_01 6:02

I don't know. How long out is it still?

SPEAKER_00 6:04

Uh it'll it'll be in it'll have to be in April. We're booked, I'm booked up until then. Yeah, I I think I think we I think we wait a little bit. Yeah, so like maybe you know, maybe have things go through a different lunar cycle and you know uh and and we'll we'll talk about things and we'll have everybody on. So we'll we'll have Beef back on, and the guest you're gonna meet in this uh coming week who goes by Garnet. Uh you should have already met that guest. Um, but yeah, we we're we're trying to grow as much as we can. I like talking to people instead of just me. Uh the stuff that I've been doing, the book analysis, that's not going away or anything. We're just gonna have more people on. And there's like 15-minute style episodes I do. We're still gonna do those once in a while, but uh I'm also gonna be putting those up on YouTube. This may go up on YouTube, I haven't decided yet. Um and I believe my camera's not on.

SPEAKER_01 6:55

What's that? Thank god my camera's not on.

SPEAKER_00 6:59

Oh, I wouldn't put my video up either. No, I'm I'm not that confident myself, mostly because um you can see my video and it probably looks like potato quality off this like 15-year-old laptop that I'm using.

SPEAKER_01 7:10

Oh yeah. Yeah. Um built-in built-ins are always always rough, especially 15 years old.

SPEAKER_00 7:15

Yeah, it's not that old. I I just I don't know how old this one is. It was uh we we had this laptop. Oh god, I think I still live I know I still lived uh in Kingston. So but yeah. So uh I got a couple warm-up questions for you and a fun little game. Let's how do we do the fun little game first? So you can see my screen, huh? No, I can't. All right. I want you to take a guess at what I'm drinking.

SPEAKER_01 7:38

Based on our previous conversations, I'm gonna have to say it's buffalo trace.

SPEAKER_00 7:41

Oh, it is buffalo trace, 100%. This is an old fashioned. I don't know if you can see it, but can you take a little guess at what the secret ingredient in the buffalo trace is, and it's not love.

SPEAKER_01 7:51

Oh, I see something, I see something extra in there.

SPEAKER_00 7:53

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 7:54

Is it I want to say it's like a couple cherries, but that's like pretty significant of an old fashioned.

SPEAKER_00 8:01

Yep, this one this one's an odd one, but it works really well, and I think you specifically would like it. Your common law wife may not, though. Unclear. So onions. No, are you in your fucking mind? No. No, no one would like that. Why would I specify? There's not children in this in it, is there? I said there's no love, so no. Uh um give you one more guss. Um, let me see if I can give you a hint. This is something you've had, but you've only had, to my knowledge, when you visited me. And it's did you put a splash of the Mr. Coffee in it? No, but that's actually a really good idea another time. So I put Sejuan pepper oil in this. Ooh, okay. Does it give you the the tingly mouthfeel? No, it's not a ton of it. A little bit, just a little bit of that. So up near me, we have this restaurant called Red Chili where uh they have uh traditional Sejuan style Chinese food. And this is like legitimate real Chinese food where uh they have Sejuan peppers. These peppers do not fuck around. Now, Mike and I both have high levels of spice tolerance, but if you eat a little bit of this stuff, like what they serve, it makes your mouth go numb and tingly. And if you drink water, it makes you feel like you're uh drinking a seven up. So I put a little like like a quarter teaspoon in in in my drink, and then I did a smoked old fashioned with uh cherry wood, cherries, and just a little bit of uh just a little splash of uh that stuff that makes simple syrup.

SPEAKER_01 9:32

So when I get when I get the bottle that you picked up for me, um I think that's gonna I'm gonna parse off some of it and you do uh a fat wash and then let some of those uh whole uh session one peppercorns that I have steep in it and see how that goes. Because that sounds real good. Okay, so now we talk about my drink.

SPEAKER_00 9:53

What are you drinking today?

SPEAKER_01 9:54

Well, today I got a combo. Um I have I was able to pick up a bottle of Bibb and Tucker, the classic six, which is a six-year age. And I also have a Dogfish Head released their um Spring Mixer pack, and it has their Chexpresso, which is a dark lager with espresso. And I'm not much for coffee stouts or you know, any really coffee beers, because they they're usually very astringent. But Dogfish Head always delivers and it's very smooth and has a lot of the coffee flavor to it. This is not a sponsored ad, by the way. I just really like the product.

SPEAKER_00 10:31

Nope, nope, we're not sponsored by Dogfish Head, but if you know they want to sponsor our silly little comic book podcasts, uh, I would absolutely take them because I do like them too. Yeah, we definitely gotta like try to get down there together. Like we've talked about going for years, but I've been I've been there before and I know you guys would love it.

SPEAKER_01 10:50

Yeah, I've I've not had the privilege of going yet, but maybe maybe this summer we can make a trip.

SPEAKER_00 10:54

Yeah, maybe maybe the fall, like late summer, fall, because I would want to go when it's not super crowded. That's the one thing, because Rehoboth gets crazy.

SPEAKER_01 11:05

That's a good point.

SPEAKER_00 11:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:07

I wonder how crowded they get around Oktoberfest time.

SPEAKER_00 11:10

Oh, that's a good point. Like that could be crazy. We can look that up. All right. So um, do you want to give me your uh no one no one gets away from the show without asking this question, so and I think I I I can almost guess it for you. Let's say you got 50 bucks, someone hands you 50 bucks. Where where are you going for lunch? What are you getting? Ooh. This is just like 50 free bucks. Like even you found it on the side of the road, or maybe someone actually pays you for your art. Mike's our channel artist, by the way. I know I've talked him up a little bit. He's the one who did our uh logo that I had to bastardize recently.

SPEAKER_01 11:42

That's right. We got we're gonna replace the main logo um in due time. Other my other my job has been trying lately.

SPEAKER_00 11:52

So we both work full-time, and this is just kind of our side thing.

SPEAKER_01 11:56

But you gave me 50 bucks, and honestly, my my answer's gonna change from time to time. And based off of today, I'm gonna have to save ranch wagon up in Dallas. Oh, what's ranch wagon? I don't think I've ever been there actually. Ranch wagon is yeah, that's the the they try to do like the old school ranch dogs, but you know, they're like 18 inches long. Oh damn. And um, you know, like any good like like mom and pop hot dog place, all the all the all the perfect toppings that you'd want.

SPEAKER_00 12:27

What are your hot dogs? What are your hot dog toppings? I gotta know.

SPEAKER_01 12:29

So my hot dog topping always has to go with the the classic um everything, which usually persists of uh raw uh raw white onion, their chili sauce, and uh yellow mustard. I respect it. Pickles? No, I don't typically do pickles on dogs. If I'm gonna do anything pickled, it'll be jalapeno slices.

SPEAKER_00 12:47

Okay, fair assessment. Fair, fair. Nope. I like it. Uh I think I'm the pickle nut between the two of us. Like if you pickle any of the normal things you pickle, like onions, peppers, livers. No. Don't drink hard, everyone. Just don't do that. I know I'm drinking a uh cocktail here, but please don't drink yourself to death for the love of God. You like pickle and you like onions, peppers, pickles. Uh, you can put those on a hot dog and I will love it, or almost anything, and I'll love it. What's up? So, what if we pickle celery? There is no world in this fucking exist that I would eat celery. So, all right, everybody, rant time. There are two foods on this planet I cannot ingest. And if you want to see a show, I will maybe do this if like we ever have like a Patreon tier tier where I have to like hurt myself to get money because we're hard up or something. I cannot eat celery or unpickled pickles, also known as cucumbers. Literally, I will almost throw up eating them. I it's like how some people have their reaction to cilantro. That's my cilantro. I can eat a whole bag of cilantro and love it. Celery, I can't like even if it's a piece of celery salt. I've like, it happened to me on my birthday a couple years ago. I think it was like two or three. Remember the birthday you came up like two, two, three years ago, and then um you were a little hungover, so you didn't want to go to dinner with us.

SPEAKER_01 14:09

That's on that that tracks. I don't I usually remember the arrivings in the league of the middle, the middle's not so much.

SPEAKER_00 14:17

The uh so then it was the day after where I said we went to um this fish place up in Clark Summit, and I got a really good piece of fish, but there was a piece of celery in there, and I bit into the celery salt, and the taste of it, like the smell alone, made my eyes water. I had to go to the bathroom to throw up. It was so bad. I was embarrassed.

SPEAKER_01 14:37

I do I do remember what time you're talking about now because I thought it was like I arrived. I thought you were saying I arrived and then didn't want to go get food with everyone, but that was the one where I passed on meeting meeting you guys halfway, right? And then I just proceeded to your house a little later.

SPEAKER_00 14:52

Yep, yep. I think though think so. So this is a comic book podcast and everything, not just a food and beer podcast. So uh let's uh you want to talk about some books? That could be fun, right?

SPEAKER_01 15:02

Yeah, we should definitely talk about some books, because right now, like clearly booze and food is great.

SPEAKER_00 15:07

But so why uh why are stories in general important to you?

SPEAKER_01 15:12

I love stories because um, you know, more most mostly for the escape, the the escape of it, you know, working a high stress job and just general life is taxing and being able to dive into a book and you know, lose yourself lose yourself, leave that that reality for a little bit is really it's it's really a form of therapy almost.

SPEAKER_00 15:36

Yeah. Um and and what do you find most unique about comic books in general? I love comic books.

SPEAKER_01 15:43

And I do love reading regular books as well, but with comics, being able to really just focus in on the story without having to piece together the entire world because because the art does a lot of that lift for you. As much as I love reading, you know, this the quote unquote standard book, it is nice to have that break and be able to like burn through more of the story, not that you're trying to get it done, but you know, absorb the story and appreciate it more because you're not also world-building inside your head off of all all of the all of the prose, you know.

SPEAKER_00 16:17

Yeah, that that's almost exactly one of the reasons that the specific genre appeals to me. Like I always say, you have quality or quantity, and sometimes when comics are hitting right, you can get quality and quantity at the same time, or if you just want to get lost in one book, you can just sit there and read the same book for literal hours and get lost in the art. Or if you're just having a day where you want to read like all of Batman, you can read a lot of Batman on a lazy Sunday or something.

SPEAKER_01 16:45

No, I mean like it it's such a good aspect of comics, and also getting to see the the pairings, you know, the collaborations that you may never see in a different medium. It's in line of why I love video games too, like just the all the all the pieces of art, all the different facets of art that go into it, just make it something a little bit more special than each one on its own.

SPEAKER_00 17:09

I love hearing the different answers to this question because you can get so many different sides uh to this story, or you know, to the to this question. Um, when I had and you kind of like did a good job summing up almost all of them, or like the two extremes that I've gotten. So one extreme I got was uh from Lisa from Comic Book Couples Counseling. She said, Comics are really cool because you have this amazing product, and I apologize if I'm like slightly misquoting her, but you have like only a couple people working on this one thing, and you get like that small teams, as opposed to like when you think about a TV show or a video game or a movie, you have so many people working on that, but you only have like three people, three, four, five people working on a comic book, and you get like their small child. Then on the other extreme, I got Alex Jaffe from DC. He said uh he he says comic books are cool because it's the collaborative effort of literally thousands of people who are telling this weird, messed up, funky story. So, and both answers I think are 100% valid because you have a couple people working on one book, but you also in the bigger scope, you have thousands of people trying to tell this wild story that has to somehow make sense. And sometimes it doesn't, and sometimes it does. And I think kind of what you said sums all that up.

SPEAKER_01 18:27

Yeah, to what you were saying too, like I'm trying to piece together my thoughts. As well, like comics also let us explore more bold takes and attempts that you like, you know, would normally be costly from like from a development perspective for TV movies or even games.

SPEAKER_00 18:44

Yeah. And like when you think about it, um, so like we both say love Batman Court of Owls. If you were to just do a book, that would be literal years to like put together that story as a book. They put out 12 issues over the course of a year, probably took 18 months to plan it, and those are 12 different stories. So, like exactly right there. Like it's quality, it's quantity. It's quality when it's good. It's also quantity, and sometimes you just want the escapism. And uh I I know you're a big like you're you're big into like rich, deep stories with rich, deep lore. And I I imagine that's part of the appeal of uh like I know you're getting really into DC lately. Is has that been kind of true in your in like your uh comic book journey, like just the rich, deep lore that you can come across?

SPEAKER_01 19:31

Yeah, that's always been important for me because once I love like the the primary aspect of a story or game, I just I just want more and more. Because also also I play Warhammer and Warhammer is known for having just an abundance of lore to read. I think that's that's just something something that helps me dive further into the world and just experience it more and more because I want to know all facets of it once once I'm invested.

SPEAKER_00 19:58

And Warhammer, the lore side of it sounds really good. Like uh if we have any listeners out there who like know any podcasts or audiobooks that you can like send me to listen to lore hammer stuff, or if you know any of that stuff, send it over. Because I don't think I want to play Warhammer just because I don't have the room, like I don't even have the room to buy comics the way I would like to. And I also can't paint, I would leave that to you. But I'm the lore, like what you've explained to me. Like, I just want to sit there with like a glass of bourbon and a beer and just listen to you talk about Warhammer all day. All right, so um, let's get back on topic, I guess. So, can I get some of your favorite stories? Some of your favorite writers and some of your favorite artists. You can do as many as you want, like get up to four. I'll give you up to four each.

SPEAKER_01 20:42

Alright. So, favorite favorite ro uh favorite runs in general obviously gonna be Scott Snyder's new 52 Batman run.

SPEAKER_00 20:52

Yeah, and he follows us on the Blue Sky, so he's definitely gonna, you know, I know he listens, so he'll appreciate the compliment.

SPEAKER_01 20:58

Oh Scott Snyder, thank you so much for that. That was that was a fantastic story. Just in case you listen to this. Um I I I have you know a really soft spot in my in my in my heart for ice creaming man. As far as as outlandish as a lot of those stories, a lot of those stories you know remind me of the valley. It feels like home in a sense.

SPEAKER_00 21:29

You know the one I'm talking about, right?

SPEAKER_01 21:31

I know exactly what one you're talking about. Um yeah, no, that's very early in in the run. And that uh that that just felt like the valley.

SPEAKER_00 21:43

Yeah, if you want to know what our hometown is like, it's that.

SPEAKER_01 21:45

Another uh another way to feel how the valley feels is also if if you read through Deadly Class. Deadly class has a large vibe of the valley to it.

SPEAKER_00 21:55

Yeah, and it's it's not like I'm not planning to do some like a back to school special. this uh like September or something. So you know maybe that's a great idea. Oh yeah. Yeah. That's that's something I I Deadly Class is amazing.

SPEAKER_01 22:09

Oh yeah. I just I just finished the run and um it's definitely in my top ten of what I read through 2025 easily. Oh 100% another another run that I liked very very much was um D Sender and Asender. I'm mixing the the topic questions all together about Jeff Lemir is one of my favorite writers period and objectively the correct answer. D Sender birthed one of the greatest characters I've ever read about is he's a robot named driller.

SPEAKER_00 22:50

Yep 100% and my final favorite story we'll go with has to be Watchmen because that was really my introduction to comics in general that so first of all you're lying um because you read like Long Halloween long before you read Watchmen.

SPEAKER_01 23:07

Oh that's fair that's fair big time doesn't exist for me so like after six months everything all happened at the same time a lot of times I feel like Doc Manhattan that I feel everything happening at once.

SPEAKER_00 23:18

But no um you're uh so one of the reasons I think I love comics as much as I do is honestly because of you even though like I'm the bigger comic book person between the two of us I guess but you like before I was reading comics as regularly as possible in our area. Like we didn't we didn't exactly grow up in a comic mecca. There were places you could buy comics but we didn't really have comic shops growing up especially not locally you had to go to like Sran to get to like a decent comic shop. Yeah and it that was like a 45 minute drive for us so we couldn't just do that um with uh but in college you were assigned a read watchmen is that how that worked I was yeah my freshman year of college you know doing doing core classes my creative writing class um our professor gave us the the full the first you know collected run to read and um I always liked comics but they were never in the forefront of you know the the nerd tree avenues that I you know mainly consumed.

SPEAKER_01 24:30

Yep but like it wasn't until recent that I've just grown like a really large appreciation for comics and more reading in general. I've always read but in in spurts and then I would go long periods without reading but it really drove it home for me.

SPEAKER_00 24:50

Once you like realize how much is out there and especially nowadays how easy it is to get into things like I think right now to get into comics you need one or two of the following things you need someone who uh maybe just knows a little bit more than you about comics. You need an internet connection and you need just a willingness to absorb story and really dive in and splash around like you need to be willing to jump headfirst into the pool. And luckily I think you know with you you you had me to like I got I feel so narcissistic saying this you had me to um say hey these are a couple things I think you personally would like and uh I I'm gonna I'm gonna put the ball back into your court. You seem to like most of my recommendations I think I rarely miss with you.

SPEAKER_01 25:45

Correct there was only um there was only one run that didn't jive with me and but that even came with your pre your with your recommendation that if it's not clicking just just just give it a rest and that was uh the divine the div the wicked did not not click with me and you know it's not not it's not really bad. It's just not something that I was really jiving with as I was reading it.

SPEAKER_00 26:10

Yeah that that was the one where I'm like oh I don't know if this is gonna hit the same way because I love Wicked and the divine wicked and the divine is one of those things where I think if you weren't there for at the time it might not click the same. It's like why I don't recommend Buffy to people anymore. Because Buffy is well problematic creator first of all uh it's also dated. Wicked and the divine is rooted aggressively in what it was like to be not only a person in 2015 but also a comic book fan in 2015. Well it has a lot of the deep lore I and there's like I I I for some I I'm actually surprised you said you didn't like some of the art uh but you also tend to like the more like stylized stuff in the arts than I do. And that has like hyper clean art in Wicked and the Divine.

SPEAKER_01 26:57

Yeah I it wasn't something that was just jumping out to me. Yeah and I felt like there was a lot of lacking in a lot of the backgrounds. Yeah. Like even even if the even if the art is busy I'd rather the art be busy than it just be a plain color backdrop behind a person just because um I don't know the intent of why we why it was done that way. But like they were outside and then jump into some panels and it was just like sky blue just completely behind them and I was I it was just not not clicking in in in my brain which is fine. Everything's not for everybody.

SPEAKER_00 27:34

Exactly and you you also said like hey this is good this is not for me and that's a distinction that I wish more people could say like now that I am kind of reviewing some comics for some creators I have to be able to put my own personal bias aside of things I don't like versus what's good and good versus what in personal taste are two different things.

SPEAKER_01 27:59

Nope exactly I wasn't better myself just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's bad.

SPEAKER_00 28:05

Exactly like I don't like I'm trying to think of things I don't like that much that won't piss people off when I say them because I've already said a couple things in the past month that I'm a little afraid to just deal with a reaction. Ah fuck it. I think um Frank Miller is overrated as a comic book person in general and um no I mean I can get on board with that rating. I've read some I've read some good good stories but you know I've also read some floppers yeah like like he's a fine comic book creator. He's not like the second coming of Christ like how people put him up to be like that's my take. No no exactly like I've definitely read stories that were great that he wrote and like year one's a good story it's just not it's just not mind blowing.

SPEAKER_01 28:56

And I do have the I do have the tendency to lean more towards the absurd when it comes to storylines. So if you're writing like a more direct storyline it needs to really it needs to really shine to cut through all the other like more mundane stories.

SPEAKER_00 29:12

And I I really appreciate when you read uh year one Batman Year One uh like I that's my favorite Frank Miller story and I've read a lot of his work almost all of not I won't say almost all of it but I've read a lot of his work. You pointed out a couple things with the inconsistency in how Bruce was written that even I didn't pick up on like I analyzed stories you know every week on this show and you pointed out a couple things. I can't remember all of them. The one thing you said was I know this happened before Bruce adopted Dick, but some of the lessons he taught Dick were the complete opposite of what he was preaching here, which may have been the intent that you know to show the dichotomy between um before and after you know he had had Dick in his life but it just comes off as out of character here. And I I can't remember exactly what you were we were pointing to there and I apologize. Do you remember that one?

SPEAKER_01 30:11

Yeah um I can't remember the exact scenarios because that it's been a it's been a minute since we've read Batman Year One.

SPEAKER_00 30:18

Probably like four or six months right it's been something like that yeah because I think it was last year.

SPEAKER_01 30:24

Oh no it's closer to six months yeah because you were up in September when you uh found that up at the place by us yeah yeah the the collection I think it was tie the the the tie in books that were the inspiration for uh the Batman that's starring Pattenson Pattenson yeah it had uh long Halloween Batman year one and Batman Ego ego was the uh least good of the books I like the initial story but the there there was a run of um Catwoman putting together like a heist situation kind of like an Ocean's 11 type feel and the entire time as I was reading it I could just hear like the the generic kind of like not like a little bit bluesy jazzy like riff in the background every time it would just put up a put up a a panel that just said like another person's name and then we're you know we're going to meet this person and try to convince them to join our heist crew and oh I was just tired through it the whole time and it kept going.

SPEAKER_00 31:33

Yeah it it's an old story so like we just don't tell comic book stories the same way anymore. I read Ego a long long time ago and I just don't remember anything about it. I love Darwin Cook though. He he wrote uh New Frontier which is one of my favorite uh stories of all time which that one I would definitely recommend I think you would like that.

SPEAKER_01 31:55

Oh no like I'm not I'm not I'm not hammering on Darwin Cook. I think it was it's just the trope itself I find hired and it's probably it was probably more relevant at the time it was it was released.

SPEAKER_00 32:05

Definitely oh so uh what are some of your favorite artists? Oh now as you you're the artist at our channel so you you get to go go hard on art and we gotta start putting up some of your like Warhammer paintings because those are so freaking cool oh yeah no as I'm I'm totally fine with that.

SPEAKER_01 32:27

Let me know I'll give you I want to give like a shadow box for my models.

SPEAKER_00 32:32

Just post them up in in our Discord and I'll put them up on uh Blue Sky and stuff.

SPEAKER_01 32:35

Alright I'll pick out some of my favorites.

SPEAKER_00 32:38

Cool? Yeah so give give me some of your favorite artists.

SPEAKER_01 32:41

So primarily from D sender asender but Dustin is oh he he crushed that's that series um I do love as you mentioned before I I am a I am very uh a big fan of stylized art because kind of like the same with the with how video games go like we as we we constantly push the gauntlet for hyperrealism as the systems continue to to like one gen to the next the stylized games are always the most like the best to go back to and that kind of drives my love for stylized art as well because it's always it's always what it was meant to like be provided as there's no there's no before and after to really judge it to and that's really what I like about it. Dustin did a fantastic job on the entire the entire run of D Center and Asender. Alternately you know I love Jeff Lemir's art too like although it's less polished it's less detailed it has this this charm to it that really ties in with the way he writes and I think that's why like a lot of Jeff Lemir's books I I really enjoy the ones like Trillium where he's also doing the art as well as the writing. Yep and 100% it kind of it kind of ties back to your your point where like comics are something where a smaller team can work on but I feel like there's also like a specialness to the the the books that people get to put out themselves where they they write letter pencil and collar look like the whole book themselves and it's a lot of times it helps translate it because they're seeing what they're drawing as well as what they're writing in their head. So we're getting the full effect of what they pictured from the story. Not that it takes away from you know other like like a lot of other comics where it's split between a couple people especially usually the writing and the art I can't remember the name of the artist uh for something is killing the children oh uh let me look that one up because I know who you're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 35:10

I want to say it's Gabriel Hernandez is that right?

SPEAKER_01 35:13

I don't remember and that's just that's that's the me thing I have a hard time with names.

SPEAKER_00 35:20

So I'm not great with it either.

SPEAKER_01 35:22

The artist is uh well Wikipedia says Werther Del Edra is the art on something is killing the children and that art was something special um there were points there were points that have really clean precise lines and everything through it that I really enjoyed but a lot of a lot of the monsters a lot of the backdrops were were more you know stylistic and rough but in a good way like you're not everything isn't it doesn't need to be polished to the to the to to the the the extent of perfection of what you would think when you're drawing something it i the choppiness gave it life it gave it just more depth to really enjoy and really made the monsters feel a little bit more unhinged because they don't have clean lines it kind of allows your your it allows your imagination to really run with it.

SPEAKER_00 36:32

It's kind of like the the the aspect of old horror movies where the goal is to not show the actual monster until the very end because the anticipation and what your brain is thinking is usually more it usually more horrifying than what any like any actual creation could actually be one of my favorite parts of from the design aspect of something is killing the children is Erica the main character because her design is super simple but it looks cool and just having that simple like bandana she does with the like the fangs on it like that's just such a good flair to the design where like she's like an every every person character and just she looks cool. She's not like hyper sexualized or anything else like that. She's just a person who has a cool look to her and she has the you know the the like the fangs on the teeth for like the House of Slaughter. I I just like that design a lot. It's simple but it's stylized and it works really well.

SPEAKER_01 37:33

Yeah from a story perspective in a world where of excessive money and headquarters I always thought it was kind of funny that they they use bandanas as you know the uniform.

SPEAKER_00 37:45

Yeah and like it it's a good way to blend in too like it really works with the story. Uh have you read um I think you started but I don't know if you finished did you read House of Slaughter I've read a large portion of House of Slaughter. Gotcha I I I didn't read any of that yet it's it's good.

SPEAKER_01 38:02

It just it isn't hitting as good as something is killing the children for for some reason I like that I can't pinpoint because I I I remember um I told you I was starting something is killing the children on Tuesday and by Wednesday at 5 p.m ish I want to say I finished all eight trade paperbacks that were out and available to me via the app.

SPEAKER_00 38:27

Yep yep um yep that was that was a story that I could not put down yeah it's uh the the ninth volume just came out the it's I know it's not on the app anymore so I can load it to you if you want. Yeah I'll definitely borrow that from you I I need to I need to continue on that storyline because oh man was I disappointed when I finished volume eight and then there was just no volume nine to go on to but yeah there volume nine came out and that's the last it's out uh I haven't picked up the trades of uh House of Slaughter but uh I might see if I can pick them up um soon and I have a little bit on my reading list so if you just wanted to borrow it you can borrow it before I get to it honestly yeah I'd have to see too because I think I'm through most of it because I believe it's there's the breakdowns of each of the colors of houses. You know more night I read like two issues and uh we we for the show we use this app called Global Comics which I've talked about a few times. Their publisher their so Boom Studios uh publishes something is killing the children that's owned by Penguin there was apparently a uh distribution issue with penguin where they pulled off of global comics uh I think they might be going to Webtoon. I don't know if that's the case but if that's the case I support it because Webtoon is free. So we'll see.

SPEAKER_01 39:48

Yeah I was I was kind of sad when Boom was no longer available on global.

SPEAKER_00 39:53

Yep. Oh I can loan you uh rest of minor arcana too if you want I think I have the other days I need to finish that oh dude so the first um the first trade of Minor Arcana is great. Minor Arcana is another Boom Studios book. It's Jeff Lemur's like he's writing he's drawing most of it it uh I have two episodes on it already it's probably my favorite book out right now and I know that's not a popular opinion but it's aggressively tailored exactly to me. Uh it's so it's you know it's an LBGTQIA plus story it is a horror story it's a superhero story it's written and drawn by Jeff Lemur. Like you said, you know it has when one person is doing the art and writing the story I think there's something special about that because you get the exact vision you want. And and that story I think is just it's his best artwork. It's it's not his absolute best writing yet I want to say because there's only 14 issues or so there's nothing bad about the writing at all. It's just hard for me to say it's his absolute best writing because well he's got a huge body of work and so many of his books hit like 10 out of 10 territory for me. Underwater welder Essex County Sweettooth descender ascender those are like probably my top four from him and I would probably put Minor Arcana like getting right up there too.

SPEAKER_01 41:13

Oh definitely Minor Arcana also is really good so like when we I think it was the October book that we read in our you know digital book of the Comic of the Monke Club we'll call it yeah um underwater welder was one of Jeff's earlier stories right it was like his second or third like published thing yeah yeah and it's it's it's really interesting to what to read read through minor uh underwater welder and then go to minor arcana which we read I believe like right before that. Yep. Just to see like you could feel his his art style still but just watching how it progressed over over time and how he fine-tuned like his specific style.

SPEAKER_00 41:54

Yep and I'm stealing a phrase from uh Joey from the from a friend of the pod Talking comics uh he said that Minor Arcana is the natural evolution of Jeff Lemur. It's a true evolution of his style where you can tell it's still him but it's pushed past the limits of anything we thought was what he was going to do on like underwater welder 15 years ago when I first read that book.

SPEAKER_01 42:17

Yeah it almost like the the art in both of those feel like they're like sister arts almost like it was just very true to his style and just very raw really like how it's done with like mostly mostly penciling and inking with like you know some some color highlighting more than you know full full color shades.

SPEAKER_00 42:40

Did you read by any chance um I think you we just read uh that Gideon Falls was one of our co-reads for like a month ago, right? Yes. Now he didn't do the art in that but in the version you read I think you read that digitally right yeah I I was reading that digitally on the app did that version have uh the copy the pages from his book Ashtray I don't think it did no I don't know if you have any interlude where it like parsed out to a different story. So the he had some of his like earlier drawings in there it's still you can like still tell it's him but it's so different. It's so wild but I'll just see that so is that in like I think you have the print copy as well right I do not have a print copy of Ashtray I have a print copy of things that have pages from that in it. If you want to be very clear on that one yeah no that that's what that's what I meant. Like you know you have the you have the page ref the the I because you have I I have his uh memoir that has it in oh the memoir the what is it 1000 inkstings yeah I haven't actually read that yet because like I I read some of it and I um didn't read uh a lot of the stories he references in there like I haven't read all his Marvel work like there's actually only two left that I haven't read but I I'm probably gonna start reading that kind of Soonish, but yeah, it has straight up a copy of Ashtray in it if you wanted to like borrow it for that reason.

SPEAKER_01 44:04

Yeah, next time I'm up, but just just let me like I just want to take a look at those pages just to get like uh an insight into what you're saying about it.

SPEAKER_00 44:13

All right. Do we uh do we want to like uh talk about the story we read together most recently? Yeah, absolutely. Are we talking Batman and Robin Year One or are you talking Gideon Falls? Uh Batman and Robin Year One, of course. Okay. We already talked about Gideon Falls a little bit. That's I would need to reread that one. That one's weird enough where uh I I just don't want to jump on that one. No, that's fine. So let me uh let me do credits on this one real quick. So we recently together read, and uh I think this was my pick. Yeah, this was my pick. Uh, we did Batman and Rob in Year One, which was written by Mark Wade with and Chris Samney, who was the co-plotters. Mark Wade was the writer, Chris Samney is the artist. The color artists were Matthias Lopes and Giovanno Nero. We also had Clayton Cowells and also Chris Samney on letters, and Clayton Cowells and Chris Samney and Matthias Lopes were the collection cover artists. And I have a lovely hardcover here, and you said you read this digitally, right?

SPEAKER_01 45:14

Yeah, I read that digitally on the DC Infinite.

SPEAKER_00 45:18

Yeah, the the digital apps are just a great way to go. I'm just flipping through this right now. God, this book is good.

SPEAKER_01 45:23

Let me uh let me uh I I pitch hard for the apps because as a former card store owner, I literally can't bring myself to have any more hobbies that involve large white undescript cardboard boxes. So um when I'm reading comics, I do a lot via the apps, and then if it's something that I love, I will also then go back and pick it up once it comes into a collection release, like a trade paperback or um, you know, uh limited release hardcover. I just need something to display versus something to hide in a white box.

SPEAKER_00 45:58

Um right there with you. Uh I the only reason I buy singles right now is kind of two reasons. I actually really enjoy the feeling of uh reading a single-issue comic book more than anything else. And I want to support my local store. Like I I actually do really like my local store. Good people, good store. That's the main reason why. I don't want the stuff like I'm trying to sell off most of my whole single collections I've toyed with the idea of.

SPEAKER_01 46:24

I love the infinite well or fire hose, basically, of just stories and media thin jest in the comic world. But coming from a like completionist completionist perfectionist standpoint, kind of that I took too hard with magic, I've had to do just you know more of reworking in my brain to be like, no, I don't need to own literally everything that has ever come out.

SPEAKER_00 46:53

That is a great message for the audience to hear. You don't need to own a thing. Like I do like my hardcovers, I'm open about that. I tend to get hardcovers for two reasons. If I'm gonna reread them regularly and want to reread them, I don't want to have to rely on owning a digital product. And you know, you it I it is a way to uh you know support an artist or writer, uh, you know, the industry in general. I think that's good. And also, you know, it that's how I like to decorate. So I I can stick things on a shelf. Single issues, single issues get tucked in a box, like you said. That's the downside of single issues.

SPEAKER_01 47:27

Yeah, that's why I love that's why I love the hardcovers and trade paperbacks, because it's still something that you can put on a bookshelf and have as a display piece, even.

SPEAKER_00 47:35

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and like I have a couple, I have I have a lot of single issues I just haven't gotten through through gotten rid of yet, but they'll they'll go away as time goes on. All right, so um, so the reason uh I picked this book, one, I really wanted to expose Mike to Mark Wade, and uh because Mark Wade is one of the strongest quality writers out there. He's written comic books for four decades. He's uh he actually won our lifetime achievement honoree over uh for the last awards we did, for the first awards we did. He was him and Gail Simone were the people that I I when I thought like what have contributed to comics and and me in general, though those two were the first names that came to my mind. Uh the other reason I picked this book is I've been wanting some good Dick Grayson as Robin stories. Like I I think Mike and I both enjoy Dick Grayson quite a bit. And uh because I I know you read all the new 52 Nightwing and you really liked that. And uh you've enjoyed a lot of like bat store bat family stories, and like this was just a good like let's get some like let's let's get some good good Dick Grayson in our lives. And uh like when when I when I think of um if someone wants to know a character, if someone were to come to me and say, Hey, I want to learn about this character, who who where where would you point me? The first thing that would honestly come to my mind, no matter what character it is, if Mark Wade wrote it, that's who I would point you towards. Just because he has such a respect, reverence, and wealth of knowledge for these characters. I think that's just like one of the best people to read their run. So naturally, he wrote this one, it just came out, a nice hardcover came out, checked all the boxes. So, uh, what what did you think of this story?

SPEAKER_01 49:22

So I have to agree with you though. Mark Wade captured Batman and captured Dick Grace and Robin. Exactly how I would have wanted them to be captured. The want like although although through the story his like Bruce's struggles to be you know the father figure to Dick, there was still the the just the good he wanted to be a good parent, although he knew basically nothing of how to actually go about it. Like you I always appreciate a a good Batman story where it's written that Bruce actually has emotions and has wants outside of just fighting crime in Gotham. And I feel like it's an important part to his arc because like all people, we're all there there's many we can't just be a one cookie cutter aspect, and a lot of times Bruce gets per portrayed more like a psychopath than a than a human being. Yep, it's just Mark Wade really captures the want to be a good mentor and parent figure to to Dick. Like it's exactly where I wanted it to be.

SPEAKER_00 50:33

Yeah, I agree. Ever since Frank Miller started writing Batman, like a lot of people just picked those threads up, and Frank Miller did a ton of damage to Batman or and I've heard a few other people say this where it's just like people hone in on the rage when they write him, and we both love Scott Snyder's Batman, but to say he didn't do that too would be misrepresenting. Like he definitely had an angry Bruce. Uh I I haven't read a ton of the 90s Batman stuff because some of it's really, really bad. And well, like if you go back to uh the 70s where Denny O'Neill was writing him, you had a lot of uh introspection, a lot of Bruce had personality, Batman had personality, and a a lot of just modern writers have just been writing Bruce as an angry person, and I don't think that's the case. I think there's a lot of compassion in Bruce, and I I don't know I think I brought this up on the show before. I don't know how well you know the other robins, but I've seen but someone, this is not my not my theory. I don't know who wrote this originally. It was someone I saw on Reddit, I think, but the different robins represent different aspects of Bruce, where Jason represents his rage, Tim represents his intelligence, and Dick represents his compassion. Where like I don't think he learned the compassion from Dick. I think he almost got permission to be compassionate about things from Dick. What are your thoughts on that? I would agree.

SPEAKER_01 52:13

Like I feel like given that Dick was first Robin right, I'm gonna say a lot of things unsurely because I'm newer to you know most of the comic world. But it plays into the podcast a little bit because I also get to be the idea bouncer for is this new reader friendly? Because I am new reader friendly to a lot of things.

SPEAKER_00 52:39

Yep. Yeah, you're you're a great litmus test for that. And you're also way you're you're also not giving yourself enough credit. Like you're picking up on stuff that I'm not picking up on that I should go, damn, God, he's good at this.

SPEAKER_01 52:51

That's that's my that's my analyst background. I'm constantly picking things apart. But I feel like about like to what you're saying, I feel like I feel like Dick allow like really open up channels for Bruce. Like he Bruce didn't go into it being I need to be the compassionate parent. It was really being th thrusted into that role that he learned that you know compassion is needed instead of just strict regiment training, everything that he was trying with Dick, because he assumed that because Dick went through something similar, that he would be a cookie cutter carving copy of him because it was about the same age, that both of them lost their parents. And it was also a good life lesson that regardless of background, like each person is going to handle it differently, and they might not process everything the same way. That is very nice. And that's what a lot where Bruce gets pigeonholed into just being an angry psychopath, because although anger and rage are similar, they're still different. And a lot of what drives a lot of my favorite stories of Batman is Bruce's rage really drives his his Batman and persona, but there's still the other facets of, you know, he has compassion, he has he is, you know, quote unquote the world's greatest detective. And a lot of stories miss out on those integral pieces of who Bruce is as a character.

SPEAKER_00 54:30

Did I ever tell you my theory that I think Bruce and Wonder Woman are kind of um mirror images of each other in a way?

SPEAKER_01 54:39

I I I can I don't I don't know if you you mentioned that to me, but it makes sense. Like they are they are similar as to my reference that you know Superman, like Clark, Clark is bet is Bruce's foil in the DC universe.

SPEAKER_00 54:54

Yep. My uh my thing with like character and I think it also does work with Superman 2. I do I just kind of notice it a little bit more with Wonder Woman, where I see Wonder Woman as a character who will do anything in her power to avoid a fight, but if she has to fight, the fight's not gonna go your way. Where I think Bruce will say, if you want to fight, we're gonna fight, but you have a chance to walk away. Where the fight's first for him, but they'll he'll always give them a chance. Or I think a good representation of Bruce Wood. And like I kind of think maybe some of those lessons almost come from Dick where you see the same kind of inverse uh between those uh Bruce and Dick in earlier issues of this, where Dick wanted to be Robin, he wanted to channel the rage he had because he wanted to process it. Bruce wanted, you know, vengeance. He wanted to process his rage just for less healthy reasons. Like I think Dick wanted to process his rage to get better.

SPEAKER_01 55:55

No, no, like that makes sense in the aspect where also they they can they they they compliment each other because Dick is Dick. Robin is his cover. Whereas Bruce is Batman, Bruce Wayne is his cover. So there's a lot of uh I I remember parts of Batman Robin Year One where Bruce is trying to lead Dick to be like, no, Robin should be your primary personality, but I just don't think that Dick ever gets there because Dick is so unapologetically himself. He's like it never he's never taken over by the rage, by like the the the want for justice.

SPEAKER_00 56:43

Like Bruce is an angry person. Dick was a person who happened to be justifiably angry sometimes. That that's kind of the the the very subtle difference, I think, between the two of them. Is a poor rich aspect too? It could be. Actually, that is a very very valid point where uh you can say uh you know Bruce grew up in a life of privilege without parents and love, but uh Dick grew up in more or less a life of poverty, but his needs were met, and specifically his needs of you know, a stable family was met. And I mean that sounds pretty good. I don't think either of us know anything about that, but um uh sorry, dark humor coming through. Um, but I think uh that that's another good uh you know contrast between the two of them. Um I I I want to try to stay on topic as much as possible here, but did you by any chance read uh Jeff Lamere and Dustin Wynn's uh Robin and Batman series? I have not had the chance to read that yet. Okay, we're not gonna go into this one, but do me a favor, like read that whenever you can and just give me your thoughts. So like it's there because two series of three issues, one's about Dick and one's about Jason.

SPEAKER_01 58:02

I will I I'm definitely down to read that. It's I've been so on more of the the independent print runs since we started since we started this that outside of you know Scott Snyder's new 52 Batman run and then all the uh other new 52s that I fell into, I am a lot more green to DC Marvel than I am to all of the image and boom runs that have been dropping.

SPEAKER_00 58:33

So that's a good transition to the next spot. Like I don't want to go into too much spoilers on this one, but can you do you have like any specific moments that you liked in this run? Because there's one I really want to talk about.

SPEAKER_01 58:47

You're talking still Batman and Robin Year One, correct? Yeah, yeah, of course. Okay. Sorry, we we sorry talking about image and yeah, um, no, what uh I and this goes to this goes to how I how I judge Bruce in any Batman comic run is I also look to how he treats Alfred. Because I've read a lot where he treats Alfred Alfred poorly, more like a servant, and but a lot of times in a lot of like my favorite stories, Alfred is still seen as almost like a father figure to him, and he loves Alfred deeply in that sense, and those are the stories I appreciate the most.

SPEAKER_00 59:28

If if whenever they treat Alfred like an employee or just a guy, I hate those stories. I actually can't think of one off the top of my head, but overall I think Scott Snyder did a good job with that. Um, the Grant Morrison stuff with Alfred, I think you'd really appreciate. There's a panel that is utterly heartbreaking, but for good reasons, and I won't spoil it for you. Yeah, I've not read that yet.

SPEAKER_01 59:54

I think one of the one of the more recent runs that I ran that I read was uh the first two trade collections of Rebirth, which was I Am Gotham and I Am Suicide.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:07

I'm sorry, I was just joking on something. Never mind.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:10

Continue on. But like I believe that was one of the one of the writings where um Alfred was treated more like an employee, and like you know, how a bad boss would treat an employee. Yeah. I and that was one of the one of the frustrations I had with that with with that run so far.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:27

I love I am Gotham, but you're right, he's not good to Alfred in that run. And right. Uh I am Gotham. He's his father. That's he he no Alfred is his dad. Thomas Wayne is his father, Alfred is his dad.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:45

It's like the end of the Guardians of the Galaxy when uh I'm talking the first movie.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:49

Oh, yeah. Uh he might have been. Yep, yep. Oh god, that was so good.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:00

That was uh that that of all of all the all the superhero movies I've ever watched, the first guardians of the galaxy was one of my favorites, I still think to today.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:11

I didn't know you'd seen that actually. I know I know you're not big on the Marvel movies.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:15

I I I I've seen a lot of the superhero movies. I haven't read like watch through them to like piece together the whole story through all of the Iron Man and Thor's and Hulks and all that. But I do remember seeing, you know, Toby McGuire Spider- the first Spider-Man movie in theaters. Um I did see all three of the Guardians of the Galaxies, and that was just like a really well-done story that was heart-touching and soul crushing all at the same time. The last one was good, it was just a bummer. Like watching watching Baby Rocket grow up as basically a test experiment with the with the cognitive the the cognizance and sentience of being a human was just heartbreaking because he's a baby animal at the time and you just want to squeeze him, and then like you know, the cuteness aggression kicks in and you want to squeeze him until his eyes pop out. But just watching him be used as a tool while having emotion and thinking that you know that was his dad was just very, very sad.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:19

Alright, so uh we're we're almost at time here just because I don't want to edit a three-hour fucking podcast. Um so let's uh let's try to get wrapped up on this one if we could. So we I think we both really liked the story. We really liked the father-son relationship of Bruce and just like the nuance portrayal. Uh, how would you rate this on the new reader-friendly scale? And just let me give you the breakdown on the new reader-friendly scale. One is, you know, absolute most new reader-friendly. Five is something like um reading last night on earth by Scott Snyder. Um where are you where are you rating, where are you gonna give this one? Like most approachable to least approachable, one being most approachable, five being least approachable.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:10

I would give it a very a very low to borderline one. Like there is some backstory to to Bruce's story that it doesn't cover. But from a you know, building up from the baseline of the story where he, you know, adopts adopts Dick, it was a very it's a very good starting point. There's not a lot of there's not a lot of questions to be had, and if you know, if you've been alive in the past 20 to 30 years, you know the baseline amount of of Batman and Bruce Wayne to not really have any questions going through it, just from standard pop culture reference. So I feel like this would be a big like new reader-friendly like collection to read through.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:59

I I I'm on the same page. This is like a one, this is a one or a one point five to me. Like, I think you're gonna be good to pick this one up and go. Since you read them recently, if and uh uh you read both of these in the past six months. Say someone someone came up to you and said, Hey, I have these two books in my hand. One is Batman Year One, one is Batman and Robin Year One. Which one would you recommend readers read?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:27

I tell them to get them both because it's just like the core foundation to the storyline of both Bruce and Dick.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:34

Fair. I I would probably say year one just because more people are gonna spoil that story, to be honest with you. This would be like very, very close. Like I I think this I enjoy this more than year one or Batman Year One, I but I think Batman and Robin Year One is like just up there with one of my absolute favorite Batman stories I've read.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:54

Yeah, like it it it definitely is Batman and Robin Year One is my favorite of the two. But I still would say both are relevant just to give you the core background of both the characters. Because you're starting Batman Year One presuming that you know enough about Bruce himself to not really focus on his backstory.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:20

Yep. Oh, I had one other question with you for you before we started to wrap this up. I think we can spoil the villain of the story, right? Like that that's not too much of a spoiler, that's just like concept level, right? Yeah, I would think that's fine. So um I've read a lot more Batman and Robin's first stories than you have. Like, I think I've technically read them all. And I'm not saying that from like a uh, you know, I'm better than you weigh or anything. Like just uh God, that sounded terrible. I think I'm better at you than like a few things. Like, uh, do you want to have a deadlift competition? Yeah, let's let's go. Come on, that's something I'll say. Yeah, I mean you're you're the you're the after me, you're the strongest person I know, but uh I feel like I I still can win there. Um but uh no, I think your I think your analysis is uh honestly, I think is better than mine. Um so I I want your input on this one. Now I've read almost every Batman and Robin, it's like first story, all the different robins, and it's almost always Two Face. I want your take on why every time Bruce, you know, adopts an orphan, why does Two Face hate orphans so much? Which might be the title of this episode.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:42

So wait, repeat repeat the repeat that question because it kind of it kind of broke out and it was something about hating orphans.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:50

And I don't think it's the message we want for our podcast. My my takeaway from this story is that Too Face hates orphans. Two Face is almost always the villain in the first time Batman picks up a Robin. So uh when he first adopted Jason in post-crisis continuity, it was the first villain he goes against was Too Faced. His dad was working for the Too Faced gang. When he got Dick, or when he got um Tim, uh his his father wasn't, I don't think, mixed up with Two Face, but he just happened to be the first villain. In Dark Knight Returns, when that version of Robin exists, uh, they go up against Two Face. So this one is, and I think maybe in the old Chuck Dixon Robin year one was the villain was Two Face, or maybe it was uh Dark Dark Victory. I it's been so long since I read any of that stuff. But Two Faces almost always shows up as a Robin villain. I just kind of want your take on why he consistently shows up as a Robin villain.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:54

That's that's a great question because honestly, my personal opinion, backstory for Too Faced, like his lore, S tier. Two faces a villain, snooze fast. Oh I do not like Too Faced in general, and I'm just honestly mildly annoyed every time he's the he's the the big bad of the of the run. I can't I I I don't know besides the fact that like maybe it like he appears especially in the earlier stages when Batman's onboarding a Robin because that turns Batman into a pair of two. So you have you have two two nemesis then which is which ties right into his shtick. And I would say that's probably primarily the reason why you see a lot of uh two-faced with with Robin.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:51

Yep, that's kind of my take too. Um so the one thing that I I and I'm kind of reaching here, I could be wrong, but so Too Faced and Batman are enemies. Harvey and Bruce are friends. Uh Dick and Bruce have a uh relationship, so it's it's all about that two connection there, but where Batman gives Two-Face a pass sometimes because that he still sees the good in him. I think it's there to contrast where the Robins consistently see they don't see the Harvey side, they see the Too Faced side first. Where I think he's the one villain where Bruce sees Harvey before he sees the villain. So that that's I think my I I think they're trying to show the juxtaposition there.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:47

That's a great take because essentially Bruce is always seeing Harvey, but Dick is always seeing Two-Face, and it's kind of it's kind of the foil between the between the two of them where Dick only sees bad, but Bruce remembers the good that Harvey was before the incident that turned him into Two-Face.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:08

Yep. So yeah, I I think we're kind of on the same page there. Uh my last question for you as the artist, uh, what did you think of the art of this one? Just because my all I can really say is I like it and I think it fit pretty well. What are your thoughts there? Do you have it? Do you have anything cool to go on?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:24

It definitely fit. It was it was definitely drawn in the in the style to convey like the the the pre-modern era of Batman. A lot of hard lines, a lot of everything, you know, being fully colored, not a lot of stylization to the art itself, but everything was very clean and well done, and really drove drove the point across. And I feel like if I was to just picture a generic, not any specific comic book, but just say comic book art comic book art itself. The art in the art in the year ones really just drives home comic book art in its like purest form.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:14

I use that example a lot, actually, where I say if you just think of what comic books are, uh the the big artists that I um bring up a lot are Neil Adams and Jack Kirby, because I think a lot of they they did a lot of like the different eras they came from. That's they set the tone for your house styles of like DC and Marble. And I think this is kind of doing a modernized version of those stories. And this uh it's I think the color palette specifically, so we should really give it up to um the colorist whose name I absolutely remember, and I'm not looking up again because I I definitely remember who the colorist was. And why did I flip past the uh credit page? Uh the colorists Matthias Lopez and Giovanni Nero. Um I think they did a good job of uh uh kind of matching the tone of Batman the Animated series, if if that makes sense, like especially the earlier episodes.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:13

No, absolutely, like they did top notch, and that's coming from both Vic and myself who are both atrociously colorblind. So very, very as much as it posed issues to making art, it also opens windows. So the doors are closed, but the windows are open, and makes for different stylized choices. But the the fact that they can capture at least what we can see of the colors, it just really translates well to as I was reading it, it still felt as though it was written and drawn in the 70s. Like the uh from the show perspective, like the Adam West era of Batman.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:58

Without the the campy overtones. Gotcha. I kind of want to rewatch that show at some point. I really like Adam West Batman, it's just fun. Yeah, like that's like that is the most fun take I think we'll ever see on uh uh like around Bruce. I'm actually trying to think of like anything that I know of, Bruce. Wayne Family Adventures, the WebTune. Definitely give that one a checkout at some point, especially if you want good Bat Family. It's totally free on Webtoon. You can scroll through it on your phone.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:26

I'll have to check it out. What's in that glass?

SPEAKER_00 1:13:30

Oh, uh, this is uh Irish Dry uh from Beer Tree.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:34

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:35

Sorry, I missed I missed the point where you poured it into a glass. Yep. So I don't know if you can see it, but there's a gesture on this. It's from Wirebocker glass. Oh, the wirebocker. I was like, I still have the uh I was the Magic Hat number nine glass, I think that we both got. I actually don't have mine anymore. That's one thing I got rid of when I moved. I had to get rid of like the nine glass I I cherish. I miss Magic Hats so much.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:04

They were they will they will sorely be missed. Even even number nine. Yeah, number nine was amazing. No one ever asked for an apricot ale. But they were magic, but they provided it and made it one of the most serviceable session beers I've ever had.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:22

Alright. So we are almost at two hours.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:25

So I talked about my answers that's that one hour and oh yeah, one hour and 40 minutes. I was counting that as hours and or minutes and hours.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:35

Oh. Alright. So uh I wanted to give you a chance. Uh, is there anything you wanted to like wrap up with? Give give to our listeners put some goodwill into the universe. Uh, any anything you wanted to add to the show before we give it a night?

SPEAKER_01 1:14:50

I think my parting wisdom is, and and Vic, you always compliment me on this, is that do not worry about knowing everything about going into a storyline. If there's a comic run that you want to read, just read it. If you have questions, either you can go and look them up. We have magic black rectangles in our pockets that know all of information ever. And you know, or fire up, fire up your your web browser, or just take my take my approach to anything where I'm reading and I don't exactly know what's going on, and I kind of just interpret the story as it is, fill in gaps as I think is appropriate in my in like my imagination, and then let your experience course correct as you go through. If I worried about knowing everything, being such a late comer to comics, if if I worried about every backstory, every tie-in to a story that I was reading, I would never get any reading done. So just really just take every every run as its own ride. Hope that they give you enough backstory sheet or you know, previously recap. But just enjoy it for what it is, because worrying too much about knowing everything ever all at once is going to take away from you enjoying the stories themselves.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:28

I 100% agree with that. I I and I will also give my asterisk, you know, one thing we do here is try to point you in good starting positions. I I don't like the advice of just just start, because that sometimes I think is just too reductive of you know, any any like direction is better than no reac no direction.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:52

So exactly, and like that's why I'm glad you've been my comic Sherpa. But I'll also like I just don't mind like there's been comics where you gave me the prerequisite, you know, like hey, you may want to read you know this and X and everything else to really tie in all of the story that is actually being told, but I'm gonna be I'm gonna level it and be honest, and I didn't do any of that. And I took it, I took not that I not that I was like, you don't know what you're talking about, I'm gonna move on. It was just I don't have the mental capacity and fortitude to just read everything else I need to do to get to the story that I want to read, and I just dove into the story headfirst and just appreciate it for what it was. And you know, as you hit questions and you're like, I don't know what I don't know what they're talking about specifically, but that's not always a detriment to the story that's being told.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:52

Exactly. And I think that can actually be uh a positive thing of the story, where um when I when I had Alex on uh a couple weeks ago, he uh he and I disagree with you know some things, but I I really like so like I I try to give people good starting points. That's kind of like my whole thing. He he brought up a point that I do agree with. I just would never say to do this. He said, You get into comics not because you found a good starting point, you get into comics because your dad's brother's friend handed you his old comic books and it's got like three issues of a random run. You've got like issue five of a 12-issue run, and you're like you flip through it and you're like, oh my god, I want to know the rest of this. Like that that's how he thinks like true comic book fans are made. And I I I like that take to be honest with you, because that's how I started. It's just not how I would say you should start reading comics, because you don't need to do that anymore.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:50

Yeah, like that's it's it's very it's very in line with how I've been reading comics too. Is like like recently, I think mid of 2025, Vic upgraded a lot of his runs to the nice limited edition hardcover runs and you know uh Omni's compendiums. So I inherited a very large cardboard box of trade paperback runs.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:18

Yep, you got my uh the the the two best things I gave you in there were uh Deadly Class. Well, no, I gave you Deadly Class, I gave you Nightwing. So that one actually I found super cheap at my comic shop, full disclosure. I spent like 10 bucks on that whole run, and that was part of your birthday present. I give you court of owls, or no, or well, all of new 52 backgrounds. That one, um uh I wasn't actually going to give that to you, but to fill in my collection, it was easier for me to just buy the Omnis than it was to finish the rest. And then I found like I can I just happened to find the rest of them and gave you those. Uh, and I had just upgraded Deadly Class and a couple other things, but I had also upgraded Black Farm, or not Black Farm, that's a that's an extreme horror book. Black Hammer. Yeah, uh I I got those with rewards points at my shop, and the hardcovers were all out. So from my birthday, I treated myself to the hardcovers of Black Farm or Black but Black Hammer.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:18

So Black Hammer is something special. It is we'll talk about that again in another another episode. But you pick the time of the Black Hammer. I would say though, the hidden gem of that box that you gave me, although I loved everything except the Wicked and Divine Um was Nailbiter.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:35

Oh, I forgot I gave you that one.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:37

Yeah, that that run the run of Nailbiter, the art in some of the in some of even I think they were made to be um cover issue art. Some of that art was so unsettling. Yep. That I looked at it and I went and I had to like flip past the page just to like not stop what I was doing. Jeez.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:01

Oh, I didn't know it hit you that hard. That's awesome, though.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:04

I think I think it was the one where he was chewing on the nails, and you could see the nerves coming out from the nails.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:13

That was the one that stuck out the most to me. Like a lot of the other one, a lot of the other stuff was tame. I mean, we grew up with horror movies like Monster Man. Um if you haven't seen Monster Man, go out, go out and watch it with your family. It's a great watch.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:27

Yeah, yeah. Specifically, your mother and father, like the time that I watched Caligula with my mom, uh, definitely go watch that movie. Um and uh just just to be clear, you know what? No, if you guys haven't learned by now, just just just don't listen to that. I highly recommend you watch Monster Man.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:43

But no, no, that that that really harbored that kind of just ick for lack of a better term, where you watch it and you go, I can't believe what I'm seeing right now. Yep. But it's just such an in like nail biter was such an endearing serial killer.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:01

We I'll leave it at that. We've got to get Garnet on Nailbiter and have her come in because I know she would love that one, and it would be so weird. I I I would like her like psychology uh takes on that one. I think uh my wife Katia enjoyed that as well. I I don't those two on the show with us to talk about that one would be so much fun.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:23

Yeah, no, I would definitely like to be included on that because Yeah, that do you pretty much have an open invite.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:28

Whenever you want to come back, you can come back. Like uh, I think uh Cadi and I are starting our Batgirl uh run through, but that ties into Death of the Family, and I definitely want you on for that one. Oh, Death of the Family. Yep. I might pull in Garnet too. She really liked Court of Owls. I don't know if she read Death of the Family though.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:49

Oh my god. How can you not finish that entire run of New 52 though? Like that was even into uh last night on Earth. Also, Greg Capolo is artist. Greg Capolo is like I think we I think we strayed short from at the beginning when you were asking me writer writer artist like Liz. Greg Capulo is one of my favorite artists, period.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:17

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:19

I his work outside of Batman is amazing still. Um he he is just such a badass on art, too. Like, if I had one artist guest on that I could get on this show, I would love to chat with Greg Capullo. He lives not like far from me, so like it would be awesome if he would like come here, we could lift weights, drink beer, and talk about Batman. That would be so amazing.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:43

He did he did some of the best Batman art I've ever seen so far. His depictions of Bruce going through the labyrinth. Uh oh, yeah, he's second to none, really. Like he is one of the one of one of my S tier artists.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:07

I'm excited for you to read um for you to read the current run on Batman, uh, because there's an artist named uh Jorge Jimenez who is writing or who is drawing Batman. It's it's up there with Capullo for how good he's doing, and this last issue that just came out, it might be one of my favorite um Batman art issues ever.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:32

Who was who was the artist that did the one where they were pointy? The point where they were pointy? Yeah, like there was like a oddly pointiness to the to the character models. Like come to a point and stuff like that. Was it the new 52 run? I can't remember, to be honest. But I just remember I remember mentioning to you, like I was like, one of one of the runs that we read, which wasn't the Black Mirror, which also deserves a shout-out.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:06

Oh yeah. Oh, oh, do you remember what like I told you was the prerequisite reading for um Black Mirror? Because I think I gave you the same disclosure I gave everyone.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:15

You gave me you gave me a lot of backstory to read, and then I just went, ah, fuck it, and I just raw dogged the Black Mirror. But like that was really that was really like a delving into Bruce being one of my favorites. And Bruce wasn't even in it, which was you know, like, because that was that was one of the dick back the dick bat runs.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:42

Um but yeah, for as far as the pointy ones, the pointy people, I don't know who that one is.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:48

Right, like I'm trying to remember what run that came from, and I just can't. It was in Was it in Rebirth? Maybe if you I can answer this question because I think I have rebirth over here in like a stack. Oh, there they are. Yeah, no, I can't I can't remember which run it was. I think it was an app run that we read. But I remember like lots of things that normally aren't pointy were pointy, and that's not a boob reference. But like even like calf muscles and biceps like came to a point, and that just sticks out in my head.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:29

Alright. So we are almost at the two-hour mark, and I've got to edit this monster of a freaking podcast. So, do you have any final words for us? Besides start wherever, don't worry, start with what appeals to you, I think is the best way to put it. Is is that is how you put it before.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:48

Yeah, essentially. Like just go into every story like it's just going to be a standalone story, whether it has tie-ins or not. I like that. Alright, so just keep reading. Keep reading. That's good advice. Because um everything I've read has been different, but everything I've truly enjoyed, you know, bleeds back into just how you perceive life, and I feel like that is just very important for us as a as a species. That was beautifully put.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:20

Alright, everyone. Since uh like I I I want to keep going and maybe we'll hang out on the call for a little bit, but uh I I just literally don't want to edit more than two hours of podcasting in you know one shot.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:34

If we let this go, this would go for six hours, and then I know eventually you would be sitting with me while I was you know potentially playing the expansion content uh Pokemon.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:48

All right, everyone. Well, we're we should like probably find like a way to do fun sign offs, and we'll definitely have you back on like ASAP, because this was a good time. Uh so I've been your host. Uh sometimes I go by Adam, but a lot of people call me Vic because that's fine. Uh and give it up for Mike one more time. Thanks, Raffi.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:11

Always a pleasure to be here. So it's not the last you'll hear of me, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:15

Yeah, definitely. We've we've got one, you know, when the lunar cycles line up, then we can all get more than uh the couple of us to record together. Uh I I really hope Beef actually, you know, knows he's invited to that next one because I would like his take too. That would be a fun that would be a fun one to have all of us on one. Oh god, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:35

Did you see that full moon last night? No. I'm sure it was last night that there was a full moon. I did not. I uh did you have pictures? I didn't take any pictures. When do I ever take pictures?

SPEAKER_00 1:28:45

I don't know. I thought you were gonna say yes, I have a picture, then you were gonna text me a picture and it would be a picture of your butt and say that's the full moon. It'd be my butthole specifically, but all right, everyone. Well, thank you for hanging out with us. We had a great time with this one. I will catch you next time.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:05

Bye, everybody.