A World at War with Itself
The podcast will be for a year, where Julie Finch-Scally, writer and broadcaster can interview people about life and the current situation of the world. She will discuss how so many things have changed over the past 80 years since her birth, and what the world needs to change to improve and save the planet from ourselves.
A World at War with Itself
Sex
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This is another one of those subjects that people don't generally talk about. But when I discovered Dr Hilary Caldwell, the author of Slutdom, I knew she would be able to discuss it so that people could learn.
Hello again, this is Julie Finch Scaly, presenter of A World at War with Itself, bringing you another episode. We are still on the category of subjects people don't want to speak about, and today that subject is sex. I have in the studio Dr. Hilary Caldwell, who is the author of the book Slutum. Thank you for coming in today, Hilary. Thank you for having me, Julie. Before we start, Hilary, I am interested to know why you called your book Slutum.
SPEAKER_01Mmm, it's a controversial name for sure. I named my book Slutum because I wanted to demonstrate that reclaiming the words that I use to shame women's sexuality is absolutely necessary for us to change the way things are for women in the bedroom and in the world.
SPEAKER_00It doesn't matter where you are, but that seems to be a a problem. Even married women still get that feeling sometimes, don't they? Absolutely. When one thinks about sex, it's obvious that without it, most of the people on this planet wouldn't be here. So why has it got such a bad name?
SPEAKER_01Well, originally sex was something celebrated and goddesses and priestesses were adored, but then Christianity swept through the world, and the control of sex by religion and state became quite important in order to maintain patriarchy, because only women's sex was shamed for thousands of years, and because it's also taboo to talk about, it means that intergenerational shame is replicated every generation because every woman's shame is given to every woman. And we we can see that in so many ways. But they say that about Adam and Eve. That's right. Another religious doctrine. Like I have a lovely granddaughter, she's two, she's dancing to YouTube, she's having a wonderful time, she looks really sexy, and everyone thinks that's beautiful. But then she does it in the supermarket, and everyone says, Stop, don't move your hips like that in public, because we don't want people looking at a two-year-old as a sexual being. But what has she learned straight away? She's learnt that moving her hips in a sexy way that might feel good and it felt good before she was reprimanded, but then how do her hips move for the rest of her life when she's reprimanded for something she could never understand at that age? So we are shamed from our sex in multiple ways, which means that women never really get to experience the pleasure of their bodies because this sex is this shame about sex is intergenerational. And that's what we need to stop. That's why we need the words to be reclaimed, uh, the action of sex, women's sexuality to be celebrated. And to be good at sex means not that you're good at giving in, it means that you're good at giving and receiving pleasure. And it means that you're good at connecting with someone on an emotional level. And it means that you have shared empathy and vulnerable moments with multiple people, which puts you at an advantage socially if only you weren't carrying that shame that we've been indoctrinated with. So if you can get over the shame and celebrate women's sexuality as a very positive thing for a person, for a relationship, but also for all of society, because we smile more when we have sex, then that is the way out of this. Because we know there's been decades of sex research, which only really became mainstream about 50, 100 years ago, did we start even doing any research into sex? And now that we know that sex is better for you than exercise, on every measure that exercise is good for you, sex is better. But your doctor didn't prescribe it yet. And we don't want to talk about that because it makes us all feel uncomfortable. But if we really accepted how important sex is for our general health, it's documentaries about sex are very mainstream now. So when we can see that sex is really good for us on one hand, but the way we treat sexual women and particularly sex workers on the other, we can't really hold those two thoughts together now. So there's rapid change about how people are accepting sex as important and why women's sexuality the way we think about it, the way we treat it needs to change.
SPEAKER_00I've often wondered if embarrassment that stops people discussing sex will be because either they don't enjoy it or they feel they aren't as good as other people, and maybe because no one does discuss it, is there something they have nothing to compare themselves with?
SPEAKER_01Yes. Yeah, all all of those things. I talk to women regularly, I'm a sexologist as well as a sex worker, and I talk to women regularly who won't have sex with their own partners, long-term partners, with the lights on. Because they're ashamed of their bodies. And this is again the intergenerational shame. If we could talk about sex openly, as it is becoming far more open, but when it's very comfortable for us to teach our children about sex in a very sex positive way, then we could start to hope for a future where women won't be so embarrassed about their bodies or ashamed of what we're capable of.
SPEAKER_00Several years ago on a TV show in the United Kingdom, a Doctor Christian, but those who watch the programme would know the doctor, got a lot of young boys together to discuss their penises, much to the boys' embarrassment. But he did tell them that most men when aroused are the same size and length. Do you think porn movies make men and boys think they are inadequate?
SPEAKER_01Yes, but I also think that all movies make everybody feel inadequate. Because movies are fantasies. They're meant for entertainment. So of course they're gonna have an idealized vision of everything. So if we all watch movies and think that that's real, we are gonna have a problem. And that's the problem with porn. People view it thinking it's real, when it's really for entertainment. But other than that, porn is an entertainment. It doesn't hurt people to watch porn if they have a good attitude about maybe they're going to learn something new, maybe they're going to see something they think is pretty novel and exciting, and that might help them with their fantasy in some other way. So I actually think that porn is a very beneficial medium for teaching and giving people ideas about sexuality and having a positive sexuality. But it does depend how someone is looking at it and what they're told about it. I do see clients who have been watching porn and they come very embarrassed and upset and believe they're addicted to this behaviour. And I asked them if they'd spent the similar amount of time watching nature documentaries, would they have the same guilt? And they say no, of course not, but really they haven't done anything except spend some of their time, and maybe they've spent some energy touching themselves, and maybe they haven't, but none of those things are bad. It's only the idea that someone has been told if they watch this they're bad. So that's the problem, it's the attitudes about it.
SPEAKER_00Brothels and sex workers have been around for centuries, and it's always been called the oldest profession, but I do think cleanings is the older profession than but then the cleaners never got paid. And I have been a cleaner. But has sex work changed over the centuries?
SPEAKER_01Yes, sex work has changed over the centuries. I think it is known as the oldest profession, although I agree it's probably not, but I think probably farming or maybe trading of other things other than sex would have predated that. But yes, it's always been here because sex is transactional, like everything else. So if people are coming together with different things to offer in a trade, then sex might be one of those things. And we still do it, even in married relationships. I mean, when I was married to a man, I negotiated sex for a basket of ironing. I was a busy mother. It didn't seem to be wrong to me at the time. But why would that be okay? And now that I'm negotiating sex for money, well, I have been for twenty five years, then why is that any different? Everything is transactional. Even saying hello to someone is a transaction.
SPEAKER_00I think when one mentions the word sex worker, one always thinks of a woman. But surely this is a profession for a man as well. Do men have another name?
SPEAKER_01Men can be sex workers just the same. Individual people may categorize themselves in different ways, but yeah, we just say sex worker to mean all genders, and I mean all genders. And that also means that all genders buy sexual services as well. There's a huge rise of women buying sexual services. That was my PhD topic that I submitted in 2018. And since then there's been quite a few movies and documentaries about women clients of sex workers, and it's quite accepted now. I can hardly shock anyone with my topic. That's good to hear though, really, isn't it? Yeah, because yeah. There's there's a lot to be gained from buying sexual services. To be able to curate a session exactly how you'd like it to be, and to know that somebody is consenting to those things because you've had a great consent negotiation and conversation means that you're safe within your boundaries. So there's a lot to learn about buying sexual services that is of benefit to people and especially women who aren't really taught about how to negotiate these things.
SPEAKER_00One hears about massage parlours and call girls and the nod nod wink wink that is what these people are, just really another name for a sex worker. But is this really the case?
SPEAKER_01Well, of course, there are massage therapists who aren't sex workers. Whether or not somebody calls themselves a sex worker is totally up to them because there's a so much internalized stigma and externalized stigma about being a sex worker that it absolutely makes sense that people hide their careers for their safety as well as for their comfort. And uh by law, anyone who touches anyone or who evokes a sexual response in someone for money is by law a sex worker. So uh we do have this juxtaposition about what is considered sex work by law and what people think they're doing, which actually can be a problem because it could be that someone's doing something that they feel quite comfortable with only to find that they've broken the law in several ways because they weren't aware that that's the legal situation.
SPEAKER_00That also leads you to the fact that some people get touched up when they shouldn't be touched up and work. But well, that's not work.
SPEAKER_01If somebody is non-consensually touched in any in any person, whether it a worker or a client, if anyone is touched non-consensually, that's not work. That's an assault.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's right. That's a difference. Now I have met a sex worker and was told that many men who use these ladies' services end up telling them their problems. These ladies, in some way, are practicing psychotherapy.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01As a sexual psychotherapist and a sex worker, I can say this is absolutely true. And I was a counsellor before I was a nurse, before I was a sex worker, and then when I used my sex work income to train to be a psychosexual counsellor, then I worked in both professions on different days with different names. And I can tell you that yes, people who pay for sex are very keen to talk. And there is this kind of postquatal verbal diarrhea that happens because people are so open and empathic when they've got all that oxytocin and prolactin running around in their bloodstream. So there's a biological reason why people want to talk, but also a lot of people want to talk to sex workers because they know they feel safe. Everything is absolutely confidential. That sex worker will not reveal them as a client, like that is sex worker 101. So the person feels very safe, and often people tell you things that they don't even tell their own partners because it could threaten a relationship. So people are much more willing to talk to sex workers than their own partners. I feel myself that the thousands of people I've talked to in that situation have enriched my life because I've learned so much from people in those vulnerable moments that I would never have cause to know. I've met people I would never have cause to meet, like outside of my class, race, and gender, and outside of my experience. Sex work clients are everyone, and being able to be intimate and have those intimate conversations with anyone has really made me feel like I'm rich in experience.
SPEAKER_00I'm going to ask an awkward question. If you saw this person in the street, then you knew that they came and saw you regularly.
SPEAKER_01Well, they're speaking in Canberra, and that happens all the time. All the time. And most of the time, everyone just has a smile and puts their head down and gets on with it. I have had some awkward situations of people following me around and calling me my work name really loudly while I've got my children with me. I've had some hairy situations recognizing people in the street, and I am expert at doing a scan of a location to see how many clients are in my vicinity. But basically, everybody has something that they want to hide, so everyone is well behaved. It's almost a gentleman's agreement.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I guess I understand that one. I understand working in the sex industry pays well, but the stigma is its downside. Surely these ladies are a help to society. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01Can you not smile after an orgasm? Can you not smile after you've had a sexual thrill? Many people want to go and buy their wives flowers and say nice things to their employees. I think when people have great sex, it makes everyone around them feel good as well. So, yes, sex work is absolutely of benefit to society. And as I said before, people learn negotiation, consent, not just sexual thrills.
SPEAKER_00I'm now going to ask what precautions are sex workers expected to take and do they pay income tax?
SPEAKER_01Well, sex workers want to keep working. So we do not want to get sexually transmitted infections. So we have ways of teaching each other and learning from each other that mean we are safe sex experts. We are consent experts, we are expert negotiators, we can get out of a trouble quickly. We know exactly what to do in any given situation to make the situation as safe as possible regarding STI. So, yes, we are absolutely motivated to do that for our own protection and for our clients and for all of society. And that's well known. Like sexual health professionals know that sex workers are good at that. The other question was income tax. Yeah, of course. Of course we have to. The ATO doesn't really care how you earn your money as long as you declare it. And sex workers do have some pretty good deductions that even models can't claim. I think it's fair to say that sex work is a business like any other.
SPEAKER_00That's good to know. I guess my last question is why you wrote the book, Slapdom. Who were you writing it for? It's a great question.
SPEAKER_01I think I was writing it for me. I had some unresolved issues. I decided to come out in my book as a sex worker after 23 years of telling a secret. And the reason I needed to come out was because I was being blackmailed for my secret.
SPEAKER_00Oh dear.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's pretty bad. I suddenly realized that now my kids are adults, I'm not protecting them anymore. So I suddenly realized that the secret was less safe than the truth. The truth became safety. So I decided I must come out, and I wanted to do it in a way that was going to have an impact on other people. So I came out by writing the book Slutum and I combined my research about women clients, my knowledge about sexuality in general as a sexologist, and my experience as a sex worker. I used all of those things together to have an interesting, I think, conversation about how sex is positioned in society. But also I think my readers, I wanted to write it for women. I want women to have better sex. I want everyone to have better sex. But I think that when a woman doesn't like sex, it's because she's not liked the sex she's offered. And I just think if everyone knew that, because as a biological creature, we're not supposed to not like sex. So I wanted to write a book that would help people on an individual level, but also show how our individual sex is vital for gender equality.
SPEAKER_00I like the gender equality bit. I've always been promoting that. Look, thank you so much, Hilary, for coming in today. I found it quite enlightening, and I hope my listeners did the same. I've been speaking with Dr. Hilary Corwell, the author of the book Sluptum. Thank you for taking the time out to listen to this podcast. This is Julie Vinch Scaly. I will be back next Wednesday with another episode of A World at War with Itself. Please join me then.