A World at War with Itself
The podcast will be for a year, where Julie Finch-Scally, writer and broadcaster can interview people about life and the current situation of the world. She will discuss how so many things have changed over the past 80 years since her birth, and what the world needs to change to improve and save the planet from ourselves.
A World at War with Itself
Pets
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Not everyone has a pet, which is sad because pets can change a person's life. Julie talks with a lady who took her dog to school to help the children and a man who has had pets since he was small. They both have been affected by their pets.
Hello there, Julie Finch Scalley with you again with a world at war with itself and another episode in the category of health. Today I am talking about pets and what the health benefits might be. This week I'm not speaking with a specialist such as a veterinarian. I'm talking with a couple of people about their pets and their life with them. My first guest was Christina and her dog Bentley, a golden retriever poodle cross. My first question was as to whether Bentley was more golden retriever or poodle.
SPEAKER_01I'd say his body type is poodle because he's very tall and very lanky, a bit like a uncoordinated giraffe, but his personality is very much golden retriever, very playful, a bit goofy, very friendly. So he's a nice mix of the both, but body size I think he's a more poodle.
SPEAKER_02And how long have you had him for?
SPEAKER_01So Bentley is eight and a half. I got him in March of 2018, so a bit over eight years, and I got him at an eight-week-old puppy. Did he change your life when you taught him home? Absolutely. Previously I've had cats, I still have one, who are quite independent and don't mind too much if they're left alone for a long workday or a longer than usual workday, but dogs absolutely do mind. So I've had to really change my lifestyle to make sure that it fits having a dog who is very people-oriented in his life, and sometimes that means including other services that I wouldn't have had previously in my life, like dog walkers or dog daycares, or whatever I need to do to ensure that he is happy and healthy.
SPEAKER_02And has it changed your health?
SPEAKER_01Absolutely, because it'd be very easy on a cold morning to not walk at 5 45, 6 a.m. because I have to go to work. But it's best for me because I do walk. I do walk every day. Really, rain, hail, or shine. I will go for a walk every day, which is obviously beneficial for my health. And there's a lot of research out there about the impact of dogs on mental health, but also just on your general physical well-being, having them in the same space. So I truly believe that the here has improved my health, my well-being for the better. Now you mentioned the word work. What sort of job do you have? I'm a teacher. I've been teaching for almost, well, in fact, now 17 years. So I've been teaching for a long time. What sort of age children is it? I teach primary school. The youngest I've ever taught is preschool, the oldest I've ever taught is grade four. My favourite would be Kindi, but most recently I've been on year three. And I understand one day you actually took Bentley to the school. Would you like to tell me all about it? Bentley worked at my school for three straight years. So Bentley is a trained and assessed therapy dog. He is assessed through Therapy Dogs Australia and was assessed at the highest level, which was a PAT test or public access training test via a local trainer here. He never required that level of testing because he was never going to go into calls or go to the movies with me. He was only going to come into my school. I'm lucky to not require a service dog, but he passed at that level, which meant that he was safe to be around children. And what happened? So I took him in twice a week for three years, and they don't suggest more than twice a week because they tire. So they don't suggest back-to-back days and they don't suggest more than two days a week. And that's the reason I actually was on year three because he's quite tall, that he needed a certain height of child to not be too much in the way because he's almost eyeline with our preschoolers. So I was on year three with him and he came twice a week, and I kind of had a class built around who he might best help, maybe children who needed help reading, because there's a lot of research about children reading to dogs that really increases their success and their willingness to read. So I had children that were maybe low in reading, came in with me, or maybe had mental health concerns, anxiety or depression, or maybe they had some trauma in their lives, and maybe that was just a nice escape. And I would have think that he really impacted them greatly. His first class would now be in year eight. And I still see them and they still talk about and ask about Bentley, so I know he made a difference to them. And her's idea was it? Was it yours or the schools? I originally bought the breed or crossbreed of dog based on my want to have a therapy dog in a school because I knew the research that was out there. Now there was absolutely no guarantee that the dog I got would one like it, two, be good at it, or three, pass. It was a real gamble, and even if he hadn't, I would have had a lovely pet. But the entire reason I chose the crossbreed, the entire reason I went to the breeder that I went to was for that purpose, and he did fulfill it. Now I want you to tell me what happened with the first day you took Bentley into the classroom? It was a very slow start. So the way we started was at the school I was at. We did things called passion projects, otherwise known as well-being projects or personal projects, where the children could choose an activity on a Friday afternoon of choice. And one of them was walkies, going on walkies with Bentley. So my mum, bless her heart, would drop him off at my school at lunchtime, and we would take a bunch of children on a walk, and he would come. And then he would meet and greet a few kids outside and a few parents outside at three o'clock, and then we would go home again. So it was a very slow start. We did that for maybe a year. This was at the end of COVID, too, so so it was a little bit sort of stop and start. But by the time he had fully trained and fully been assessed, and we had started the formal paperwork at the school, there was no real concern because everybody knew Bentley. They already had met him, seen him, knew that he was around. So at first it was just walkings with Bentley, then there was books with Bentley. So on a Friday afternoon, I have ten children who maybe would just want to read, and he'd be in the space or he'd they'd read to him. And so it was a really slow start. So basically, the very first day that he was a full-time therapy dog was our very first day of school with my year three class, and he just lived his best life. I'm talking hundreds of pats every day, kids everywhere. They'd accidentally drop their strawberry on the ground or they'd give it a wash and give it to him. It was just the best thing for the best thing for everybody. So he worked full-time, his version of full-time, for three years. The children, what did they do when they saw the dog the first time? As children often do, flock, flock to him. We did have to sort of say some children are trained young to always ask permission to approach a dog, which is a really good uh skill because not all dogs are friendly. But there of course will be children who are less comfortable with dogs. And there was only one child that was meant to be in a class with me that we moved because of their fear, and it wasn't we don't want them to connect, it was we absolutely want my child and this dog to connect. We just think being in a class is too much. This child had had negative experience with a dog at two years old, and actually, it was an accidental thing. Basically, a big husky accidentally sat on them and it was hard for them to breathe. So they just got a bit worried about all that, as you can imagine. The husky didn't even know. And because of that, she's a bit nervous, but was fine with Bentley by the end of it. One of the biggest benefits, I think, for the children was even if you were a bit worried, you got to practice with a really safe dog, with a really, really safe dog, and become less fearful.
SPEAKER_02And that's interesting, and the fact that it's helped them with that, which is a health thing as well. But the trauma that the child must have had left over, and when you're two, you don't forget those things. It's one of those things that stay in the brain for a long time.
SPEAKER_01Yes, and that was a really interesting one. I don't think it was just that, I think it was just a range of things and less exposure as well to having animals around for lots of children was a thing. He saw such a constant presence that it just became really normal for teachers and kids and parents to expect on Tuesdays and Thursdays that he would be on site. So I think it just really helped that consistency. There were times when I couldn't bring him in if he was unwell, obviously, if it was incredibly hot or raining because he has to bath him outside, so that would mean mud through our school. The children do enough of that anyway, so we did not need him helping that. So those kind of days I'd keep him home. But really, he was pretty consistent at coming in. Why did you stop after three years? A couple of reasons. I moved schools and the paperwork to get a dog in a school off the ground is quite substantial. As you can imagine, safety reasons, you know, you need permission slips. Like we had hundreds of like literally over 500 permissions. Okay, to connect with this dog. So, like it was it is a lot of work and risk assessments and going through the department and everything else. But also, he is now eight, and they often say you retire them early because you don't want them getting to a point where they are not themselves in terms of temperament, because that's when it starts to get a bit risky with young children who are unpredictable, especially junior, they are quite unpredictable with movement and noise and shrieking, and different to like a high school who would have a little bit more self-control. People that have more developmental age, therefore more self-control, in terms of interacting with a dog.
SPEAKER_02You would have had to have had permission from the headmistress or master at the time. Did you just go and present your idea and see what the outcome was?
SPEAKER_01Yes, pretty much. And interestingly enough, about that principle of mine is she does not like dogs. Not a fan of dogs. But her words were, and I hope I quote her correctly, was oh, I don't have to like dogs to read the research. Yeah, I've seen what the research for dogs and schools, and dogs and well-being, and dogs and happiness, and dogs and health are. I don't have to like them to know this is beneficial for my students. So let's work towards it. And like I said, he was doing a soft run from when he was two. I think he started coming in at two, just those afternoon walks where he was just basically out walking alongside children, not really directly interacting or directly working with for a number of years before we sort of formalised it. So, all up, he was there for a good portion of five years. And during COVID, when we were all stuck at home, he was a very consistent part of web meetings, and we would put on our school Facebook page Wellbeing Wednesday with Bentley, and he would give some tips to the students on how to look after themselves in a period of isolation. So he was very much part of our school community.
SPEAKER_02That's a lovely story. Do you know whether or not this is being carried on by other schools now after your success with this?
SPEAKER_01Yes, and my quiet concern is people are taking dogs in and calling them well-being dogs, which basically means they're not assessed and trained. So to label him a therapy dog, I had separate insurance, public indemnity and personal liability, separate insurance, which I could only get with a certificate. So I had insurance that would cover me of an incident with him and an incident involving him, which never did happen. I was pretty confident it wouldn't, but you know, you've got to take care. But these dogs are going in a more or less just your average training, and the problem will be is if something goes wrong, it will ruin it for everyone. And that really annoys me because it took me three years of dog classes, specialized classes as well, plus one-on-one training to get him to that level of safety. It took me hundreds and hundreds of hours worth of training to get him to that point. And anyone is bringing dogs in now, and they're probably not adhering to rules in terms of their safety, which is they'll take them in every day, which is just gonna burn them out. Potentially, if you're burnt out, you're more frazzled, you're more likely to react in a way that's not your normal. It's the same for dogs, so I think we're playing with fire a little bit. Now I can't speak for every school, but I do know there's a few of them out there anyway. And when I say, Oh, what training have you done? there's sort of stony silence. And that tells me enough.
SPEAKER_02That's sad because it might put jeopardy on a damn good idea, as you might say.
SPEAKER_01Yes, because of his age and obviously changing schools and whether or not I approach my new school about it, they know him. The principals visited my school while he was there, so they're aware that he's trained. But by the time I get all the paperwork off the ground, he would be retirement age. So it's kind of one of those sad things. Like I could have kept him going, probably, but it just the timing didn't work out for us. But for those times that he did work, I truly believe he made a difference to at least five years worth of kids. So I think that's great. But I know how beneficial it was for them. They tell me all the time. Their parents, when I see them in coals or woolies and I happen to be them, tell me all the time. So I know he was beneficial and I know how beneficial having dogs are in schools, are, but we've got to do it the right way. And how long do these top dogs usually live for? Great question. I hope forever, but I know I'm dreaming. Poodles and retrievers, maybe 12 years. Of course, you get some on the either side of that spectrum. So I don't really know. He's a pretty healthy eight-year-old. I have a 15-year-old cat. So maybe I'm just hoping that I get something similar out of him, but I really have no idea. Because he's a crossbreed, I really don't know. The other thing, of course, he's very big, and usually very big dogs have a shorter life. That's right, like Great Danes and things like that often have a much shorter lifespan, maybe eight to ten years. So for me, around retiring him out, it was short and sweet, but better short and sweet than pushing it too far and him not enjoying it anymore. He he left loving it. He left dragging me out the door to get to school. He knew his days, the days that I would take him, he'd stand at that door with his harness ready to go. So he knew his days, he knew his routine. So he loved it, and I'd kind of prefer him to leave with that kind of almost with a bit of left in the tank than to push it too far. And does he understand now that he's not needed anymore? Well, it's been a while. I think what helped is I put other things in place for him on those days. Like I've he's got a dog walker that evacuates him from my apartment on Tuesdays, and he goes on little adventure walks on things that I wouldn't normally take him to. So I think we've replaced it with things and sort of his new routine has started. And I don't work on Wednesdays, so I'm home a bit as well. So I think its routine has shifted. I think he's happy, he seems happy enough. And tell me, when you come home at night, do you look forward to meeting him? Oh gosh, yeah. Coming to the door, because he's always so happy to see you, regardless if you had the worst day or the best day. It doesn't matter to him. Coming home is his best part of the day.
SPEAKER_02That was Christina telling us about her wonderful dog, Bentley. My second guest is Ross, who has had several pets. My first question to him was, what pets have you had throughout your life?
SPEAKER_00I've been in households with many dogs. We first had a Australian dog that kind of adopted us and used to turn up regularly. Then we purchased our own when I was eight years old. Uh pedigree boxer. I was living in an apartment, but then it came to our place. We had a yard, and we said goodbye when I was about 16 or 17, being a boxer, heart problems. Then I didn't really have any pets for some time until I moved in with somebody, and they had a beautiful golden retriever, and we said goodbye to Dudley when he was about 16. He had a long life for quite a large dog. Then we introduced a small Daxon into the household where my daughter was when she was a little girl. And Jessie was a very cheeky little Daxon. Daxon's a small dog, and she died at 14. We had to say goodbye to her, so she had some respiratory illnesses and so on. We had some fish for a while, which wasn't really planned. I think that was more of a almost like a therapy thing. You look at the fish, not quite the same as a fireplace that you look at, but you can look at fish because they're peaceful and they're calm and their movement's very calming. And then we had a cat adopt us, so the cat just wandered into the house and he lived a beautiful life for four and a half years.
SPEAKER_02Did it change your life having these pets?
SPEAKER_00Oh, 100%. Obviously, when I was a child, I was a lot more active because I'd go running with the dog because I was playing soccer, so the dog would come to soccer training and annoy everybody, but we were constantly chasing the dog, and that was lovely. Uh when I met Dudley, the golden retriever, I'd take him for walks regularly, and he was a very well-mannered dog, top at intersections and all that sort of thing. Jessie was hugely cheeky, but unbelievably loyal. One would hold her in your arms, and if anyone approached, she'd be hugely protective. And being a Daxon wasn't afraid to nip if anyone came close. The fish were really interesting, also very calming, just that notion of ascending the stairs every morning and seeing this group of four fish all huddled together in the corner of the fish tank because they knew they were going to get that pinch of those fish flakes. And it made you ask that question about fish not having memories, which seems absurd to me now that I've experienced that. And then, of course, our little pussy cat, Stroke. Yeah, Stroke was a lovely little pussycat, um, very bold, but I would come home on my motorcycle, and he would recognize me, come down the street on the motorcycle, and when I got off the motorcycle, turned it off, took my helmet off, he'd roll around on the ground in front of me, just exposing his belly. He was almost like a dog in that regard, which is what I didn't expect. He was truly lovely. Cheeky though, he was still a pussycat, he'd push things off tables and so on. But a lovely, lovely boy, and we had to say goodbye because he had a stomach cancer. So that was a big one, actually, when he passed.
SPEAKER_02You mentioned to me when we were talking on the phone about this interview the cost involved in having pets. Now I'm gonna ask a funny question. Why do you think people are quite happy to pay that amount of money?
SPEAKER_00Why are they happy to pay? Well, it's almost like the cost of having a pet. It's the cost of having that loyalty from a dog in particular, that devotion of a dog, and indeed a cat. They rely on you and they bring a real humanity to you, which might seem a strange thing to say given that it's coming from a canine or a feline or or what have you, but I think it brings out the best in you. And that has a cost. If you aren't prepared to pay for that, mm, you may want to think again about about having a pet. I'm I'm gonna go a little bit off off kilter here. But you think about all the world leaders who have pets. Generally speaking, they're the sort of people who have a real empathy. Uh people spoke about George W. Bush in a negative light, but he had a dog and he still expressed great empathy. And whether you agree with his politics or not, it's not important, but at least he had some empathy. Bill Clinton, Barack Obama, and so on and so forth. And even our leaders in the past had pets, like in Australia.
SPEAKER_02It makes a difference to the personality of the person.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, maybe that's all I needed to say. But yes, thanks, Julie. Yes, yes, indeed.
SPEAKER_02You mentioned the fish and them sitting in the corner waiting for the food. Did they know you were coming up the stairs? And is it possible that they were waiting to see you?
SPEAKER_00Look, I won't dismiss that as a notion. It's quite possible the time of day, of course, I was working as well at that time. Yeah, maybe they just recognized the time of day and they were ready. I think they did see me and they recognized me, and they knew that the first thing I had to do every day was unscrew the lid of that plastic tub. So yeah.
SPEAKER_02Did you get some joy and warmth out of the fact that they were there looking at you?
SPEAKER_00Oh, 100%. Yeah. Well, firstly, it makes you think about some of these notions that people put out there about fish don't have memory and all that sort of thing. And look, there might be some scientific basis for that, but my experience was different. They recognized that someone was uh coming up those stairs and it was dinner time. But they were always nice. You could even go up to the tank and put your face up to the tank, and they would come over and say hello. Of course, they're my words, but yeah, it was just really lovely. And when you're doing that, you're not thinking about work, you're not thinking about, oh dear, I have to register my vehicle, or I've got to ring my mother-in-law, or whatever. Just this little moment that you're having with another sentient being is just fantastic.
SPEAKER_02You chose when your last pet died not to have any other pets. Was there a reason for that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, 100%. So we had no plans to actually have stroke the cat around, but he adopted us and he was lovely, and my partner just loved cats anyway. The reason we chose not to have pets is that we're still planning on traveling. When we had strokes. And we did travel because we'd already booked a bunch of things. Uh we actually felt terribly guilty even though we had people who were prepared to look after him and feed him and spend time with him and they really loved him. But I still felt guilty not being there for him, even though we'd put things in place. So we didn't want to have to go through that because we thought it was unfair on the cat. So when the time comes when we stop travelling.
SPEAKER_02And what will you have of this show?
SPEAKER_00Look, I had such a good experience with the Tuxedo cat, because I really like Tuxedo cats. They're the ones that the Sylvester cat, if you like, from the Warner Brothers cartoons. So we really like Tuxedo Cat. My experience has been great. We've actually cat sip a ginger cat, and what a personality that cat had, but he was just trouble. He would just push things off the counters all the time and he would beat up other cats. So I don't want a cat like that.
SPEAKER_02Was that just to get attention? Do you think?
SPEAKER_00Oh, look, who knows? Cats are cats, you know, so and it would be a boy. Now why would it be a boy? Personally, I seem to have an allergy toward girl pussy cats. So I'd probably try and replicate that experience I had with stroke. And would I get another dog? Well, I guess it depends on the age. I think I'd probably have to see a therapist if I decided to get a doberman at 75 years old. That would not be a very good idea. And every time I see someone who's 70 or 80 or 85 with a Maltese terrier, I completely get it. They're not going to pull you over. Whereas my daughter's dogs, which are mastiff boxer crosses, they would just drag you from for two kilometres before they realised anything was wrong. Yeah, I'd get another dog, but it would be a smaller dog, I think.
SPEAKER_02And what about fish? Would you try them again?
SPEAKER_00Look, I possibly. When you have a lot of fish, I think it's really lovely because there's a certain rhythm that they provide. Like in terms of the way they move, it's very relaxing, it's it's very arbitrary, but it's smooth and calm and all that sort of thing. So it's nice to see three, four, five, six, seven fish. But of course, the more fish you have, the larger the tank. And I don't know about fish. I'm quite happy to visit fish. They don't quite have the loyalty and personality that say a cat or a dog does.
SPEAKER_02That's probably because you feel they can't speak to you.
SPEAKER_00There could be some of that. Yeah. Dogs are unbelievably loyal. If you accidentally tread on a dog's paw, it will look at you and apologize. You get like they're the problem, right? Cats, well, that's that old thing. You know, dogs have masters, cats have staff. I don't think that's necessarily incorrect either. I'd quite happily be staffed to another pussycat.
SPEAKER_02If I was to say to you, do you think that having a pet improves your health? What would you say?
SPEAKER_00In terms of mental health, I would absolutely think that they do, in terms of mental health. Because whenever you're engaging with these animals, you're not thinking about other things. But in terms of health, obviously dogs, the fact that you're out there walking, you're doing things with the dog and for your health and you're being active, these are steps you may not normally take. Unless you're disciplined and you know, yes, I have to walk two kilometers every day for my heart and so on. Well, the dog helps that. But the difference is you're not thinking about it. It's like the people who go to the gym to get healthy, and then there are other people who play team sports to get healthy. They're not thinking about being at the gym. And it's the same when you have a dog, you're just spending time with your dog, and the health benefits are incidental. Of course, having a small dog and having stairs in the place may not be good for one's health. Yeah, mental health and the physical health of just walking your dog, yes, definitely. Obviously not walking our cats, but the mental health with a pussy cat is wonderful.
SPEAKER_02Thank you, Ross, for coming and talking to me today. I have been speaking in this episode with Christina and Ross, two pet owners whose lives have been changed by the pets they've owned. And that's it for this week's episode on health. I will be back again next Wednesday to discuss another health subject. Until then, this is Julie Finchcali of a world at war with itself, asking you to please join me a little bit.