The Bay Area's Unofficial Meme King

Abe Woodliff is a writer, poet, filmmaker, and the memelord behind @RealBayAreMemes—a project that has become the sharpest cultural mirror San Francisco has of itself. 

Abe grew up in Section 8 housing in the Bay, watched the city transform around him. Through this experience, Abe developed an almost anthropological eye for the the Bay’s absurdities: the cold machinery at the center of its progressive mythology, the hypocrisies that nobody wants to name, the way good intentions curdle into cruelty. 

What makes Abe dangerous as a critic is that he’s devastatingly funny. He wields humor like a scalpel, cutting through the phoniness and self-delusion that defines contemporary San Francisco culture with a precision that makes you laugh before you realize what he’s just said about you.

Join us for a biting conversation made for everyone who loves the Bay deeply enough to be furious with it. 

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Chai served on the board of UNICEF, and has advised cities, universities, national sports teams and Fortune 500 corporations. A Forbes 30 Under 30 honoree, Chai’s work has also been covered in publications ranging from the SF Chronicle to Business Insider.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

This is also the most serious podcast I've ever done. You're just shit posting and talking shit. You're actually asking questions right now to actually like give a real answer to your f My guest today is Abraham Woodliffe.

SPEAKER_00 0:10

Abe is a writer and a meme lord. Abe is the man behind the wildly successful meme page, Real Bay Area memes, that's followed by just about every writer, every artist, every politician I know in the Bay Area. But I wanted to have Abe Bond because Abe is angry. And he's really, really good at being angry. See, when I was younger, I used to think of anger as exclusively a bad thing, as something that I needed to get rid of and that society at large needed to sort of expunge. But as I've gotten older, I found that it's not civil to be civil about uncivil things. And there's a place for well-placed anger in a well-functioning society. And there is no better example of this than Abe. Abe is angry about what's happened to his city and what's happened to his country. And he presents this anger with incredible humor in the form of these biting but genuinely hilarious memes online. And through incredible writing that just gets to the core of what makes San Francisco a silly place in 2026. I could not be more proud, and I could not have had more fun with this interview. With that, I bring you Abraham Woodliffe. Hey, first off, thanks so much for being on the podcast. No problem. Glad to be here. Um I want to start with this. So I want to like I have this broken out in chunks. Uh to start off, I actually want to go into your origin story. Specifically, I want to talk about you know, you had this like very Bay Area upbringing, right? I'm in Oakland, Vallejo, Martinez. Um you do know, okay. Yeah, no, dude, I did my I do my homework. Um what did I this is kind of a two-parter, right? When you were growing up, what did the Bay Area feel like to you then? And looking back, what are you like? No, that's this is what it actually was when I was growing up.

SPEAKER_01 2:04

So at the time, it was highly specific to where you were. Um, like here in my mom's the mission, actually. So like we would go here. I never lived here, but we'd go here all the time. And the it the mission in particular felt like art because you it was so like naturally naturally eclectic. Like you'd see, like, like people have always talked about urban areas as melting pots, but in most cases, most cities are deeply segregated.

SPEAKER_02 2:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:28

In the mission, particularly, not in other parts of San Francisco, but in the mission particularly, you'd see like Cholos and dot-com workers and like radical feminist lesbian punks and like street preachers and like a homeless guy screaming at no one and pitching everywhere, like one cop who looks afraid via sunglasses, so you can't fully tell. Like that was like the energy. And and like I remember like being too young to really participate in it, but we'd always take like Muni down, like just like watch it. It looked like a painting that you could actually live in. It looked like something that was like, you know, when you see art and there's like abstract art and there's like fucking colors everywhere. It kind of looked like that, but like personified at scale. Yeah, if that makes sense. That's what it felt like here. And then like Oakland, Oakland felt like kind of a tale of two cities. It's like one part's like fucked up, like it's it's fucked up, and then the other part's like Beverly Hills. It depends on where you are. Oakland, like like everyone talks about I'm from this side, I'm from that side. There's only two parts of Oakland. There's like big McMansion Oakland, now there's like Tech Condo Oakland, but then there's like bars in the window, like fucking Victorian House with Chip Paint Oakland. That's like pretty much the city. It doesn't really matter what you the name of your neighborhood is. You live in one of those realities, you know, and then like the suburbs were like varying degrees of like blue collar, like honestly, Martinez is like white trash, like like hard like neck tattoo people, like refinery that smoke meth or missing teeth. I I like this might sound crazy, but like I never heard a white person say the N-word, like legitimately, until I lived in Martinez. I never saw an outside of like a movie in my life because in Oakland that shit wasn't going on, and SF that shit wasn't going on, at least openly. And then I went to Martinez and then like hard Ring it. I'm like, you guys are insane. And then Vallejo just felt like Oakland and Martinez had a weird baby. It's just like everyone was broke, but everyone lived next to each other. So it was like Did you think that, like, did you as a kid, did you think the barrier was cool? I didn't know. I I actually, to be honest, I didn't didn't. I thought SF was cool. I thought Oakland sucked, even though I lived in Oakland, because everyone would talk shit about Oakland, and I just thought it sucks. Everyone's like, fuck. She doesn't even paronalize it. Yeah, I was like, oh, it just sucks here. I want to live in San Francisco, which is funny because like I always had and my my mom's side of the family's all from SF, like the native, so they're like repping it hell hard. So I just thought those whack as fuck for being for the East Bear.

SPEAKER_02 4:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:28

And then I moved to San Francisco, it's the worst mistake I've ever made in my entire life. Like I lived here for one year. It was like, well, to be fair, I fucked up. Yeah. Because I lived on like soft fanus and somewhere, like right across from the public storage. That's an awful place. Yeah. It's a it's an intersect, it's like the like San Francisco has like everything in the world, and I'm in the one spot where there's nothing. There's truly nothing. It's it's it's the most like corporate bland warehouse. It's just like warehouses, public stores, those guys always washing cars, and then random crackets just screaming. And it's also weird as fuck because like I was in this con, I was 130 South NS. And here's another thing, it was like luxury-ish condos. Because like when I first got a tech, I'm like, oh, I got money now. I've already done something dumb. Yeah. And so I wasted my money there. But like it half the building is empty.

SPEAKER_02 5:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:09

The other half are really, really rich people, like serious rich people. And then you go outside and it is just like pure anarchy. It's just like, it's like you're sitting there, it's like, oh, there's a tech millionaire, and there's a tech millionaire. You walk outside, someone's like, I'm Jesus! And it's like, all right, well, that's a that's contrast.

SPEAKER_00 5:24

No, no. This is a really critical point that people don't talk about enough. San Francisco has the ability to be boring and cuddy as hell. Yeah. At the same time. Like it's unlike any city I've been to. Like San Francisco will be the most corporate and the scariest city you've ever been to. Aspiring to both simultaneously.

SPEAKER_01 5:42

San Francisco wants to be the most like money, they want to out Wall Street Wall Street, because Silicon Valley is kind of bigger than Wall Street now. This SF's like, look at us, we're mad. And then the other side of San Francisco like really wants it to be like a mental asylum. And both sides are always conflicting and they both exist and they don't know what to do about each other.

SPEAKER_00 6:01

Well, okay, what did you want to what did you want to do? Like when you were you're growing up in this like crazy, you know, part of the city is a mental asylum, part of the city is like trying to be billionaires. As a kid, like who were your guys? Like, what were you trying to be?

SPEAKER_01 6:14

I just was I I I always was just impressed. I don't have this might sound weird. I didn't aspire to be anyone anybody else. I just kind of wanted to watch it. And I I kind of found inspiration in the contrast, all these worlds kind of colliding.

SPEAKER_02 6:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:26

And and I I really, I really enjoyed that. And I just wanted to kind of observe it. I didn't really know what I wanted to be. I just wanted to make sure I could see it, if that makes sense. Because I maybe like it's like a weird anthropology thing where it's like I didn't like I was trying to understand the world so I could better understand myself. If that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 6:42

Well, this is why you're a fantastic writer. Like, because it's I do think we need people in our culture who like whose primary preoccupation is like observing the rest of us and calling out when we're being absurd.

SPEAKER_01 6:55

That's kind of yeah, no, I I kind of naturally do that. I don't know what it's not like something I'm thinking about doing, but it's like I'll just because I when I write an article or I write I write a story or poem or book or whatever, like I don't really have a plan. Yeah. And then just shit just happens. And I it's like a lot of subconscious stuff. But like in order to get at that subconscious stuff, you have to understand what's happening in the world around you. You can't really satirize something or or say something important unless you're actually, you know, actively observing everything around you.

SPEAKER_00 7:19

This is a really critical thing, dude. Like, I think the reason there aren't more pages up like satirizing San Francisco well, or even the valley for that matter, is uh because there aren't enough natives here. There aren't enough people that understand that's true what it is or and what it was. Because to to satirize something, you need to understand it at a deep level. And I don't think there are enough people to do that.

SPEAKER_01 7:40

Well, that's the thing about gentrification that's so bad. Because the thing is like once again, I'm not against people coming and making money or whatever, anything like that. But it's like we have to this is like this isn't really just a San Francisco issue. This is like a core fundamental like capitalism issue where it's like this idea, especially American capitalism, which is more brutal than other versions of it, where it's like capital runs everything, and there's really nothing that matters except for money.

SPEAKER_02 8:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:05

And so, like the culture of a city or places that matter can be easily swept aside just because someone has moneyed interests in removing it. And that's the thing with housing. It's like housing should be a human right. I know that's like radical to some people, but it's like I'm not just saying that's like for for points. It's like you can't really do anything unless you have, you know, shelter and and like you know, just that you can't. Like, like that's what's funny about like when people talk about the homelessness and drugs and stuff like that. Now, there's some people who are fucking crazy, and there's really nothing you can do. There, there are some people. This it's not it's not the majority, but you know, it's there there are they do exist, and some of them do exist here in San Francisco, and people point to them and they go, Well, those people don't want houses or whatever. And it's like, who the fuck knows? Maybe that may be the case. I can't really speak to that. And then many times it's not the case, it's just they offer them really terrible housing where they can't bring their belongings, so they go, they don't want housing, but you like threw away their entire life in exchange for temporary housing, not permanent housing.

SPEAKER_02 8:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:00

But like, most people can't improve their lives unless they have like stable, permanent housing, like they need stability. So, for example, if you want someone who who's addicted to fentanyl or methamphetamine or something like that, like I have not fentanyl addicts, but I have meth addicts in my family. And a lot of them were able to get clean, but if they had no stability and no place and no foundation to build upon, there's there's no ch chance for them. So there's a criminalization or forcing people at gunpoint essentially through this like cops come and they tell you, get the fuck out of here or go to this treatment center. That's literally forcing people into treatment at gunpoint. Anyone who's forced to do anything, they're they're going to want to rebel. You have to create a stable environment and you have to help like, you know, slowly put them through these programs. And that way, and once again, it's not a hundred percent success rate. There go, there are people who are going to fail. But like, if you don't give them a foundation to build on and don't tie it to a bunch of things that that kind of sets them up to fail, then you're you're going to have this problem forever. People love treating symptoms, but they don't they don't want to talk about root causes because root causes could actually come to some criticism of the system we're living in.

SPEAKER_00 10:05

Yeah. Well, no, I want to actually talk about like your personal experience related to this, right? So you you spend some time in section eight housing. I do. Yeah. Growing up, um, again, going back to to like San Francisco being this like weird.

SPEAKER_01 10:18

So it was in Martinez, so it was in the East Bay.

SPEAKER_00 10:20

It wasn't in Section 8 in San Francisco. Yeah, but I just want to be. Oh, that's fair. Sorry. Yeah, I at many points will interchangeably say San Francisco and Barry, which is not a mistake I should make. But you know, then we're all be mad. It's like you were saved in 195, liar. That's like, no, I didn't say that. But um, like, did you have this sense that you're like, no, there are there are people living more fortunate lives than me. That there are people whose lives are easier than the life that I have.

SPEAKER_01 10:44

Yeah, I think I think everyone in the Bay feels like that.

SPEAKER_00 10:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:46

I I think I I I think because you have extreme wealth and extreme poverty, even in the suburbs you do here, and it's right in your face. And you can see the difference. It's like I feel like a lot of other like I feel like in other places, once again, I can't speak, I haven't been everywhere, but I feel like in most cities and most societies, there's like a set, there's like a few degrees of separation between the poorest and the richest. Here, that's not the case. Yeah, you can literally be in deep east Oakland and just look to your right and see the mansions in the Yoke Hills, it's right there, or see the Salesforce Tower, which is symbolic of literally tech wealth. Like, for example, I did this calculation last year, maybe more now with the AI boom, but like between this isn't even the whole barrier, just San Francisco down the peninsula to to San Jose. If you take just the tech wealth, it's worth 14 trillion dollars. Wow. Not even counting the East Bay, not counting the North Bay, just San Francisco down to San Jose, just the tech, just the tech sector, not nothing else. 14 trillion dollars of welfare. And then you have, you know, really fucked up street conditions in San Francisco. Yeah, the yeah, exactly. And it's like there's there's clearly something wrong here, and you can't tell me we don't have the money. Yeah, it's I just that we I know that's a lie. You may not civically on paper have the money, but it's like that's the thing that's always bothers me too about the Daniel Lori characters, which is why I go so hard at him. Cause like I know what he is, and I don't even think he's overtly an evil person. He's just a guy who's born rich, doesn't have a lot of experiences outside of that world, and he's kind of just taking his own side. Yeah, he wants to pay less and get more. That's that's his whole thing. And he's kind of like this vibes because most people don't know policy. Yeah. So if like you see someone and they smile on your face and they like, you know, go, oh, things are going well, and if I'm standing in front of some fucking business I have nothing to do with opening, and woo-hoo. Like they go, Wow, great job. And he's a little booby story. Exactly. Yeah, he's like, Oh, there's one less 10 on the street. Yeah, like it's it's it's it's very easy to trip people into advocating for things that don't actually serve them.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

So okay, so this is you kind of just showed the point I'm about to make about you. You think about everything like a writer, and like you you break things down like a writer. I don't know why I'm like this. I'm like super quick to get annoyed. I wonder it's fine, like the origin of that.

SPEAKER_01 12:50

Like, when did when did writing become a thing you're like? So this might sound weird, but like I didn't I'm gonna fuck it, but might as well. Okay, so like I was kept out of school to fifth grade.

SPEAKER_02 12:59

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 12:59

And my my dad wanted me homeschooled because we were in Oakland and he didn't mean to go to schools in Oakland. Now here's here's where it gets fucked up. My mom was illiterate and she was the one homeschooling me. So she didn't homeschool me. She just took me over to the city all the fucking time. And my dad didn't know. Yeah, and my mom had a little bit of a drug problem, and she was going to SF and just telling him my dad I was homeschooled. And then like he kind of realized later on, like slowly was revealed to him that I that I couldn't read. And so like I went- Isn't it fifth grade? This is the fifth grade I went to school. I went to school in Concord because he didn't want to go into school in Oakland because Oakland schools, especially back then, were hella, they're still fucked up. But now back then they were even kind of worse. Yeah. And uh I went to school in Martinez, I felt hella weird, or not Martinez. I went to school in Concord at the time because my grandparents lived in Concord. And uh I just felt bad about it, but like I took it really seriously. And then, like, once you start learning how to read, because I did I learned pretty quickly, actually. It was like six to nine months. I was actually getting a good grasp grasp on it. And then like I started reading a lot, and then it's like I knew my circumstances, also because I'm a white dude, so people don't expect things to be fucked up, but then they can't look at you, they're like, Things are working out. I'm like, Yeah, I hope so, you know. But so I was like, why do people like I became really fascinated about why people assumed things of people based on just how they look, and I started wanting to understand how the world works and how propaganda works and how class and race work in America. I got like really naturally interested in this in this shit, and I started reading about like all kinds of like just I think ninth grade, I was reading about like communism and like capitalism and the invisible hand, John Locke and all his bullshit, and Milton Friedman. Let's get into Ayn Rand. Also, I turned into like not knowing how to read to like a super dull adult. Were you as like stressed out as hell as a kid? Yeah, well, yeah, because like so when my parents so it's funny because my life in Oakland was pretty good. Yeah, like literally not much bad because everyone's like, it must have been crazy. Like I was chilling. Like I was hanging out at my house, I hung out with the it was actually really funny because like this is another thing. This is before I was even like into all this shit. It was like, so I was like the one white kid, and there's like black and Asian families, and like it was mostly black, but there's a few like immigrants and stuff. And I this might this might sound crazy, but it was like I was the only kid who can hang out with the Asian kid and the black kids because like the Asian dads weren't fucking going with it. Yeah, like it's just they weren't, and I didn't realize why. Yeah, because like you know, Sydney could play with me, but you couldn't play with those kids. Yeah, and if I was with them, she couldn't play.

SPEAKER_00 15:13

Yeah. Well, you talk about like this uh I'm curious about like the type of writing that you decide to start doing. Because like I think I forget where I was reading this, but it's about like I think your eighth grade teacher, right? Um uh Mr. Oh yeah, I have a yeah, Mr. Evans, right? And he talks about like you write a story that's worthy of being called news.

SPEAKER_01 15:32

And I think that's that that was from a book I wrote, actually. Yeah, there, yeah, yeah, that was the thing that actually happened. That was uh it was from the this book I'm working on called The Ghost of Mare Island. But yeah, so basically, yeah, no, I had teachers who like picked so it was weird. So like I kind of got in this weird position where I was like advantaged and disadvantaged simultaneously. Yeah. Where it was like, okay, you're broke and your mom's on drugs, okay, whatever. And then like, but they're like, you're also kind of bright. But I also am a crash out and fuck up a lot. So it's like this weird mix, like, you've got potential, like, watch me ruin it. Like, that's kind of like the story of my life. Like, but like, yeah, so like around ninth grade, I was I was, you know, and the teachers and you know, people knew about the situation. And so I was I was writing at grade level in three years, I was surpassing it, I was active in class, and so teachers were like, yo, who the fuck is this guy? And then, you know, I kind of fucked it up. I just I started doing dumb shit. I started drinking, doing the high school stuff, and also because I didn't have like a you know, the most parental parent, like my house became the place, and it was also section eight, so it was like this weird ecosystem, and it was also in the suburbs, too. So it wasn't like the city where you just go to the corner to get drugs. There's very specific spots in the suburbs to get drugs, and because I was in section housing, my apartment complex was one of the designated spots. So it was kind of this perfect storm to me for me to drop out of high school and fuck up stuff. It's also really funny because there's this guy named Mr. Johnson when I was like 16. He basically was like, You're bright, but you always do the you're like he's like you're performatively stupid. I think that's what he said. Yeah, because he he he was he took me out on a tour around Stanford and he drove me from Martinez to fucking Palo Alto. And this might have hello weird because I'm from the back. I'd never been to Palo Alto in my fucking life. I swear to you. Still haven't been? No, now, yeah, because back when I was a kid, he drove it, like I was like 16 years old, and like I'd never been there. I'd never even been to San Jose like that. I've been in SF, like you know, Vallejo, Martinez, Concord, like basically like Alameda County, Contracosta County, San Francisco. Yeah, and maybe Daily City a little bit. That was like really ish. That was my little ecosystem. Everything else was vague. But yeah, he took me took Palo Alto. I felt like we were going to LA or some shit. I was like, what the fuck is this? But he's like, he's like, yeah, look at those campus, it's beautiful. It's like if you apply yourself, not in like STEM or anything cool, like nothing that San Francisco cares about. Like in terms of like, you know, like the humanities and stuff, he's like, you actually have some real potential. And I'm like, cool. And then like I just started doing ecstasy, not taking it seriously at all. So, you know.

SPEAKER_00 17:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:43

It's weird how that works.

SPEAKER_00 17:45

Well, okay, I want to I want to come to the moment where you write your first like article at least that I think most people in San Francisco became aware of.

SPEAKER_01 17:52

But it was for the bold Italy. Yes, yes, yeah. Holy shit. Shout out to them. They hate me now because they're owned by a pack that I talked shit about. So was everything everyone just hates me eventually. So people like me for about 15 minutes and then all of a sudden, you know.

SPEAKER_00 18:04

No, man. Performatively stupid talent that you'll throw away. Everybody hates you by the end. It's true.

SPEAKER_02 18:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:11

So it's all true. The worst person a lot. I don't think I've ever had anyone on the show that was more down on themselves. Like in their description of it. Um, but okay, so I want to come back to the bold italic thing. Um bold italic, you you write this piece, right? Uh the founder, tech guy, um what's what's his name? Uh Ev Williams, right? Ev Williams, yeah. Ev Williams, he responds to it, right? And You really know your shit. Not you.

SPEAKER_01 18:36

Holy expecting the founder of Twitter to get brought. No one even knows he's the founder. Yeah. Everybody thinks it doors it. And then like you wanted to do a rebuttal, and my editor stopped. Shut it down. Editor shut it down. Well, it wasn't the editor. The editor initially approved it. Yeah. And then he like read the article. And I don't know if Ev read it, but I I feel like he did. Yeah. Because the editor's like, we can't do this.

SPEAKER_02 18:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:56

We're just not doing it. Because he owned the bold italic and he was launching Medium at the time. And then, yeah, just it just kind of went bad from there.

SPEAKER_00 19:03

Well, okay, well, I I read that piece in preparing for this today. Oh shit, you read that old ass article already? I didn't do all. It's the bold italics. I thought their website would be down. It's still there. Yeah. Um they still have this shit up? This address. It's crazy. What um it did describe to me. What was like the the feeling behind the piece? Like, what were you trying to describe back then?

SPEAKER_01 19:22

Like, so basically, I was just like, this might say hello weird because it's like I'm always sympathetic to artists because like I kind of am one, but I'm also like tired of them bitching all the time. It's like every day they're like, I'm an artist, but everything's horrible. It's like, shut the fuck up. Just go some of the people like you. Yeah. San Francisco doesn't give a fuck about you. They have enough murals. They don't care. They don't care. I know you want to be here because the people are here, blah, blah, blah. But I'm telling you, if you go to somewhere that's kind of culturally starved, you will get a better grassroots reaction that you can build upon at scale and then come back to the city. Yeah. And then you'll have an actual audience of people who hear of you. Everyone does this like stupid movie-esque thing where they're like, I'm going to Manhattan, I'm going to San Francisco, I'm going to make it in LA. And then they just fucking sit there and struggle and complain all the time. And don't make any fucking art because they're already struggling. So they have no fucking place or time to do it. So I just I basically said that. And like I obviously mentioned the tech the tech theme and all that type of shit. And this is the first professionally published piece of it written. Yeah. I was writing like little shit. I'm basically writing like shit posts and edgy bullshit before the like high school friends. Like, this is good for you, I guess. And then suddenly I was like in this like actual publication. Yeah. And then like the first thing is like, I don't know if anyone's gonna read this shit. I'd like I knew the bold talk had a big reach in the city and stuff, so I knew some people were gonna read it, but I didn't know, like, within fucking a few hours, fucking a billionaire is gonna be like, Well, actually, Abe, I didn't see that coming, and I was like, Oh shit. How old were you? Uh, I was like 26, 27.

SPEAKER_00 20:42

26, you'd just written your first piece, the billionaire owner of the publication, basically. Yeah, literally responds. Responds and like disagreeing. Disagreeing, yeah. You try to do a rebuttal and it gets shut down by the editors. Like, was that a learning moment for you, or were you like, yeah, this is the system's fucked up?

SPEAKER_01 20:59

It was the systems fucked up, but it also was like it made me realize how like sensitive they were. Yeah. Because that's the thing about San Francisco. This is why I I don't I shouldn't say that on the podcast. But it's the it's the reason why I think Shui Kott's gonna win. Yeah. Because he's exactly the type of politician that San Francisco will get behind. Explain that more. Well, he's a he's he's a person of color who's really, really smart, charismatic, he's a handsome dude too, incredibly wealthy, tied in with tech, and also him being a person of color who's successful in the city, um, at a time when they're pushing people of color out and they're self-conscious about it, he's the perfect figurehead. Because he basically his success is basically a rebuttal to claims that they're racist and classist, especially with his politics. Cause he he gets to be both. He's like, I support Bernie or no Bernie and AOC, I worked with them, but he's also worth a quarter billion dollars. You see how all this is like a perfect storm for San Francisco? He's the perfect candidate. Yeah. That's not even an endorsement, it's just like realistically.

SPEAKER_00 21:59

Yeah. Hmm. Um That was like a lot to say, but No, no, no. It's I I I think it's it's relevant, right? Like so I um I wanted for this kind of chunk that I have, like I want to talk about like specific pieces that you wrote that like I kind of pulled out and I wanted to do it. Um you write about dishwasher or then you're shit.

SPEAKER_01 22:18

It's called This Went Wild by Sarah's. A medium, which was like, what the fuck?

SPEAKER_00 22:23

I don't remember if this is like my because I read this one like a week ago, and I don't remember if this is what I took from it or if you actually wrote this in there. But you say um it's the perspective of a dishwasher who shares his job with a machine, like who shares his job title with a machine. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's a that's a banger line. Thanks, right? Yeah, that that's that's a good one. But you kind of describe, like, I think the word that I really left with when I read that piece is like phonies. You describe San Francisco as kind of this like city of phonies, right? Yeah. And like I um when did you sort of become aware, like, and it's relevant to what you're just talking about right now, like at what point did you become aware that you're like, no, this is this place that I grew up in, again, not San Francisco, the Bay Area, but like this place that I grew up next to, wanting to live in, all this, is just infested with fakes and phonies.

SPEAKER_01 23:16

Well, the reason the reason why I kind of came to that conclusion was like if the rhetoric doesn't match the reality, something's wrong. If you have a bunch of progressive rhetoric, but people everywhere around you are struggling, yeah, um, then someone's lying. And if the people who basically kind of, you know, repeat these progressive mantras are also the same people with money and power, and those negative cons conditions still persist, then they're the ones lying. And that's kind of where I got that. And then that's the documentary do with Mario, that's why I called it the city of sensitive frauds the whole play on SF. Yeah. But they're they're sensitive about it and they're they're liars.

SPEAKER_02 23:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:54

I want to kind of like um take a step back on on this part, which is um let's let's talk about this. Like um what is there's something I hear one of my favorite pieces you wrote was last week. I messaged you about this nostalgia. The nostalgia piece. Um it I hear when I when I hear people uh criticizing what San Francisco has become, there is like some level of longing for what it was or what they thought.

SPEAKER_01 24:22

I write about that a lot. I write about that a lot, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:25

What for you, what is that? For you, what is what was the barrier? What what is a version of the barrier that we are trying to preserve here or we're trying to get back to?

SPEAKER_01 24:34

I if if I could have it my way, which I will not have it my way. I understand how the world works, but yeah, if I could have it my way, it would be a place where the the stakes are low enough that you can find out who you are. Where you're not forced into institutions or jobs you don't like or systems or whatever. You could do a stupid job, pay your fucking rent, whether it's a room or an apartment or whatever the fuck it is, and you can fuck around and find out about yourself. Yeah. And it it wasn't perfect. I'm sick of like sucking the 90s dick, but like it's you know, there was a little bit of that here. There was a little bit of that in Oakland. You know, you had people who were waiting tables and they had their own apartment. It wasn't amazing, but they had they had a roof over their fucking head. And when they got off work, they painted, or they made really shitty music, and it got better over time if they kept at it. Yeah, or they wrote, or whatever the fuck they did. And it's like, and when someone does succeed in that capacity, it does give something back to the culture of the city and it does become unique to the experience of living there because it was made while living there. If it be if you can no longer do that, you your city just becomes an urban museum and not a real place.

SPEAKER_00 25:45

This is, I think, like a really poetic thing that I think you said this on a podcast or something, but this idea of like San Francisco will gentrify the shit out of a neighborhood. Yeah, and the move, click on a million views, got me a lot of trouble. We'll gentrify a neighborhood, make everybody move out, and then build a memorial for the people that were there.

SPEAKER_01 26:02

Yeah, yeah. Look at the film more. Go to Division go on to the baro. They have a bunch of murals of black people in front of like yoga studios. Yeah, it's just fake as fuck. It's well, okay.

SPEAKER_00 26:09

So we we've set up like what it is that we wish the barrier were more of, or what it once was, right? Uh a place where you have the space to like find yourself, to be your exact.

SPEAKER_01 26:21

Which is the whole allure naturally of like originally of San Francisco. That's kind of how people saw it. And it was that to a degree.

SPEAKER_00 26:27

So and then some then I have the second question related to that, which is what do you think went wrong? Like, how do you diagnose? You you mentioned a little bit earlier, like everybody treats the symptoms, not the disease. Yeah. What is the disease? What what rotted the core of San Francisco?

SPEAKER_01 26:40

It's gonna be like a very simplistic kind of answer, but greed.

SPEAKER_02 26:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:44

And it's not just local greed. It's it's it's where like local interests and national interests kind of converge in in creating just a situation in an urban environment that's inhospitable to people.

SPEAKER_02 26:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:56

Like, you know, the the median the the like, for example, okay, so a high, a high income industry, a high growth, a wealthy industry, whatever you want to call it, uh makes your city the basically the official headquarters of tech. San Francisco kind of behaves like that. And that's a good thing in some ways. Like money comes into the city, people come here, local businesses thrive because people are shopping and whatever the fuck. But like if you don't have spaces carved out in large numbers, so people who aren't able or aren't willing to participate in that high growth industry, whether it be tech or AI, they can have a place in the city too. And they can, you know, they you can and also another thing is like you literally need these people. This isn't like like me being like conceptual or anything. It's like you need the person at the sandwich shop to ring you up and make your fucking sandwich. You need the person to mow your lawn, you need the teacher to teach your kids, you need the firefighter, you need like everything. But like because it it has a you know, a subconscious lower value because of that's not as high of an income as a field. Um, you you basically push these people out of the point where it's like, and also those people who do those normal jobs are the oftentimes the ones who participate in cultural activities when they're not at work.

SPEAKER_02 28:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:09

Whereas like wealthy people tend to insulate themselves around other wealthy people because like, and I get it. Like if you have a lot to lose, like you don't want to fuck it up. And I get where that anxiety comes from. That's that's subconsciously why they kind of all mold together, even if they disagree with each other. Yeah, I'll set them and argue amongst themselves and actually find people who are lower income who may agree with them.

SPEAKER_00 28:28

So, yeah, that's that's kind of what what I see it as. Also, I want to okay, let's let's go into that a little bit more.

SPEAKER_01 28:33

This is also the most serious podcast I've ever done. Because you're just shit posting and talking shit. You're actually asking questions right now to actually like give a real answer to obvious.

SPEAKER_00 28:43

No, dude, you can uh I want all of it, man. Like, that's what I love about your stuff because it is simultaneously the most serious page I follow and the most joking page I follow.

SPEAKER_01 28:52

Well, that's the thing. It's like there's this like Oscar Wilde quote, or if we tell the truth, it better be funny or they'll kill you.

SPEAKER_00 28:56

Exactly. That's kind of where it's like it's kind of where I am. Yeah. Well, it's okay. So, but I want to like get into that, right? So you're because uh I I should have like stated some of my priors here. I agree with a lot of what you say about San Francisco. I truly, like I I have this weird experience of like, I love this city. Uh it's like it's the it is home. I would uh, or at least the Bay Area is really what I'm talking about. Um, I love the Bay Area and I like thought for years and years that I love San Francisco too. And I still like their major margin of the city. That's how it works. I think you love San Francisco and you get here. This is how late my realization was, man. Like I like I lived here for I lived in San Francisco proper for like 10 years. And like last week, I was just walking when we were driving around, and I looked around. I was like, am I what is San Francisco anymore? What the fuck, like what what is does it have a heart still? Does it what like what even is the it does it have any culture? Does it have a personality? What is I feel and I realize like oh no, a lot of the goodwill I feel, I feel towards a Bay Area. Yeah, I feel towards Vallejo and Berkeley and Oakland and you know pick your pick your place. Um San Francisco itself feels so hollowed out now. Yes, and it used to not be.

SPEAKER_01 30:12

Yeah, it used to kind of be like the weird like curation spot where like all the cool shit that's happening in San Francisco or or uh Oakland and San Jose and Vallejo and Richmond and Berkeley and Hayward and Concord and Antioch or wherever the fuck, you know, Marin, because there's some shit going on, Marin, I guess. Yeah, and it it all it all would converge in the city, and then there'd also be people from the city doing shit, and you guys would like show each other all your shit and you con and there'd be conflicts and there'd be cool collaborations and shit was happening. Yeah, and now it's just like that's been stomped the fuck out. Like when when I saw the police were arrest skaters for the hill bomb at Dolores Park, I'm like, it's over. Yeah, it's over. Because that shit was always here, it's dangerous, but it's always it's always been here.

SPEAKER_00 30:48

So okay, so I want to I want to talk about this, right? So you have we've talked about like what San Francisco once was, something that I think we would both like to see it go back to, right? We've talked about why it um sort of isn't that way anymore. Um the part I'm curious about like getting your take on is why this like why greed destroyed San Francisco more than it seems to have because there are greedy people in every city, right? But like there is, I agree with this feeling when I go to LA, my wife's from LA, and when we go there, I go pretty often. I'm like, you know, this is still a city. Yeah there's still people. I mean, I know it's spreader and whatever, yeah. Blah blah blah. Like urban planners can hate it, but like it's still a place with like a sense of civic pride where like the person serving you coffee behind the counter doesn't have to go live in a different fucking zip code. LA might be like a different zip code just because it's a huge massive. But like, you know, they still they also see themselves as uh Angelinos, you getting the coffee to see yourself than Angelino, you the firefighter putting out the fire in your house is an Angelino. Like there's like a sense of it, this is so a real place in a real city. SF doesn't feel like that. Why is it that like greed was able to hollow out San Francisco more than it's been able to do that even in like other cities of California?

SPEAKER_01 32:00

So there's three reasons, actually. Okay. So if we're talking about if we're talking about are we talking about the Bay Area or just SF? Uh however why you might do that is that I guess we can do just SF because it's a little easier to make sense of it. Um so in San Francisco proper, San Francisco's incredibly small.

SPEAKER_02 32:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:15

It's an incredibly small place. Also, um it's it's also the nature of the industries that are that are inhabiting these cities. So for example, if you look at Los Angeles, Los Angeles says Hollywood, you know, Hollywood's a big industry, but Hollywood Prime, other than a few people, if you take all the stars in Hollywood, we're probably talking about maybe less than a thousand people, truthfully. And then the serious executives, we're probably you could probably fit them in this building, everybody who's really making money in Hollywood. But the the backbone of Hollywood are is are like dream tracers, people who are writing, people who are doing stuff and they're doing jobs like lighting and camera work and all this other stuff. Like, well, you know, those people are a huge, they're they're the largest part of Hollywood, the people who actually do the stage work, uh sound design, all that shit. There's like blue-collar work, it's blue call, it's heavily blue-collar work. And so those people are the backbone of the city. And the main industry, the main high-income industry, which is entertainment, is still directly reliant upon those people. So they're harder to remove. Whereas tech in San Francisco, even the grunts, um, you know, the lowest paying tech job is a junior SDR, which is what I started as actually when I got into tech, you're still making 60,000 base. So the lowest income tech job is still higher income than most of the the blue-collar jobs that actually probably arguably require harder work. Yeah. And because San Francisco's main industry, which is tech or AI, they're divorced since they're divorced from that, they they don't see the value in those workers. So they're much easier to discard and displace. Where in Los whereas in Los Angeles, those people are foundational to making Hollywood function. Which is why the writer strike actually worked, because they still need the writers. If Hollywood went full tech and full AI, Los Angeles would probably look a lot more like San Francisco.

SPEAKER_00 33:52

Okay. I have uh I have a question about this. So this is less about San Francisco, more about just kind of your general worldview. Um I have a lot of uh like progressive friends, obviously. And a question I'm always like curious about, there's no like right or wrong answer to this, it's just I'm curious about how they think about the world. Like when you talk about, you know, San Francisco is like the most San Francisco thing is to gentrify, remove people, and then like put up a memorial right. I'm curious. No, no, no. But I think by the way I think it was spot on, right? Yeah, like I'm curious about how intentional do you think, and maybe like how organized of a think do you think that is? Like this sort of like let's say like systemic hypocrisy, right? Of like uh doing one thing. I mean, this is the the point you made earlier, doing one thing and saying another thing. Yeah. Like, do you think that's just people being cogs in the machine in like a systemically sort of like rapacious and exploitative machine? Or do you think it's like do you think there are actual like dark rooms where people are sitting down being like, nah, let's all we need to do? I think actually both, truly.

SPEAKER_01 34:54

I think there's people who are here's here's the thing. It's like there, there's like there's there's two types of like evil, and then there's just also just like indifference. I think most people aren't evil. I think they're indifferent, and I also don't think indifferent people want to feel bad about themselves.

SPEAKER_02 35:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:13

So even if they play a prominent role in a deeply fucked up system, they will kind of masquerade as if they're not, or that they're while they may be doing this, they're all the while they may be taking something away from this, they're also profiting that community in some other way, whether it be philanthropy, which we all know is a tax write-off. But so many philanthropists in San Francisco, I swear, all these philanthropists, and we solve these problems in your tech. Anyway, no, but like I think that's what it is. So it's like, for example, um, I'm deeply critical of AI, and I've had the I've had these issues, but I I I I work in a in a tech company where I sell AI to industries, and I don't want to feel like a bad person, but but I also I know I have to survive. So you have to, and this goes up the higher you go because there's a lot of people with a lot of money who aren't bad people, however, um they they don't know what else to do, and they're they're they have they don't see any viable alternative to to maintain the standard of living that they have, yeah, they just go with the flow. And then there's guys who like fucking people like that the whole thing about like, you know, there's this study that like a lot of CEOs or psychopaths or sociopaths. There's those people too. And and they do have a lot of power. And if you look at how the world runs on the highest of executive levels and who's making decisions and what comes from those decisions, it's it's kind of self-evident.

SPEAKER_02 36:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:29

So I I think I think that's what it is. So I think it's a mixture of both, it's just highly dependent on the person. I don't think Daniel Lurie's evil. I think Daniel Lurie is a guy who is born into extreme wealth and has no idea what the fuck he's doing. Yeah. He's not uh he's not this like guy who's like evil and in the background making plans and doing weird shit. Um, but some of these people are. Yeah. And we know their names.

SPEAKER_00 36:48

Like, well, yeah, it I think that's a really good distinction between like the genuinely misanthropic, yeah, and then like just the plainly misinformed. Exactly. Right. And I even like misinformed.

SPEAKER_01 36:58

I think he knows like some of them just don't know what to do. Like, like I know a lot about how things are working. I don't know what to do about it. And I don't think that necessarily gets better the the more power you get. I think it gets more complicated.

SPEAKER_00 37:09

I have a question for you based off of this. Do you I like asking people this all the time. I think about this for myself too. Do you do you think of yourself as a good person? I have no idea. It depends on like what how you're framing it. Like Okay, see, that's the only correct answer. I it's mind-blowing to me when people are just like, yeah, I'm a good person. Fucking how? Yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_01 37:30

It depends on who you ask. Like, yeah, when there was times in high school where I was like a bully and an asshole. Do those people think I'm a good person? Probably not. There's also times where I've like helped people out and done like all kinds of shit that I don't talk about with like the money I get and they don't say anything, and like those people probably think I'm a good person. Both realities are real. You're a saint and a devil in in certain people's minds, and most people don't think about you at all. That's the truth.

SPEAKER_00 37:50

Um, on this point, sticking with this for a second, how has it felt for you? Like, how have you kind of wrestled with the fact that like you have genuine real criticism, famous criticisms of this industry, right? But at the same time, like you are uh you are part of it, right?

SPEAKER_01 38:07

They kind of like I a lot of it's funny because a lot of like the tech people, like even higher up, know who I am and kind of like me, which is very funny. Yeah, which it makes no fucking sense. I know a lot of people that love your site. Yeah, I know it's weird. Like I know like open AI engineers who are like serious people are like, we love you. And I'm like, what like what the fucking about you? I'm like, I hate you. That's my whole strength. Like, I know it's great. I think it's like jesters privilege. Yeah, they don't they and also it's like they know that on an institutional level, even though it's it's culturally acceptable to make them a punching bag, yeah. I have no institutional power. This is a critical point. Yeah, I have no institutional power. If if they would like that's why, for example, if you take me and Dean Preston, both have similar politics. One has institutional power or did, and one doesn't. They like me because I make fun of them and they can kind of see my point a little bit. Yeah. But what are you gonna do?

SPEAKER_02 38:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:57

And then Dean Preston, who actually threatens the status quo, they put everything they have to tear him down. Yeah, because the the the real the difference between me and someone with institutional power is you can affect things. They they know I'm a writer. I may get some like cultural, I may be able to store up cultural backlash to some of these things that are happening. But the only language that matters is the language of legislation. As long as I can't affect that, they don't give a fuck what I say.

SPEAKER_00 39:19

Yeah. Okay, this this actually brings me to uh the mentioning Dean brings me to a a question I've been excited to ask you. As I was reading some coverage of the the when you did we release the documentary with Mario, right? Yeah, and Dean, of course, also we were talking about that before we started rolling, I think. And uh I think Dean said in one of the pieces about it, he said the people are ready to fight for the soul of San Francisco. And I had a few thoughts about this, and I want to get your your reaction too. The people are ready to fight for the soul of San Francisco. And my main thoughts were who the fuck are the people? What the fuck is the soul of San Francisco? And who's ready? Like, is anyone ready?

SPEAKER_01 39:58

I they are, um, but they don't know what to do. So you you have hope. I I not quite, but let's not get crazy. No, no, but like there are a lot of people who are deeply frustrated. But what Dean means is like you there's enough discontent among locals, among natives or people who've lived here a long time prior to the tech boom, to where if you organize that, it could be a formidable political, uh, political force. However, the reason why I don't think um people are gonna be it's well, I don't I don't know if it's impossible. It's not impossible, but the reason why I think it's gonna be difficult is for two reasons. People are much less likely to organize when they're under constant economic duress. And um the the political nature of San Francisco for a lot of people, uh especially on the left, they'll agree about 80 to 90 percent of things, and they'll hate each other to the day they die about the 10% to 20% they disagree. Oh, we love to do that. Exactly. So it's like, and then and then you bring in like, you know, gender politics, the LGBT community, racial politics, all this stuff. And people will sit and nitpick each other forever about who's more privileged and who's more problematic and who said this on Twitter when they were 12 and who what the fuck ever. That makes it much more difficult to organize. And that's why the and this isn't just San Francisco, but the San Francisco's a microcosm of it. But it's like if you if you, you know, kind of take a bird's eye view and look at it from a macro perspective, it's like that's why the media focuses, that's why the left is is about, you know, they they portray the left as like, you know, we need to have a a queer black CEO and everything's fine. And that's why on the right they're focused on like the Christianity and everyone's everyone's gay and they're trying to touch your kids and don't go into the bathroom, we're about trans people then do this bullshit. Yeah. Because they they neither side in America in the in the in the modern context is anything to offer when it comes to class. Because the thing is if you don't have a lot of class disparity and a lot of class angst, you actually can't really build now. I'm saying there aren't people who are racist or sexist or homophobic or whatever, but it's it's much harder to corral those people into caring enough to be angry if their material conditions are met.

SPEAKER_02 42:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:04

So in America, it's all about enriching the few at the expense of the many, and and and and to stop from organizing, you create constant infighting based on relatively superficial differences. Hmm, arbitrary shit.

SPEAKER_00 42:17

This is a really interesting point, dude. That America doesn't really have a real left at all. That and also America doesn't really have like the vernacular to talk about class differences.

SPEAKER_01 42:26

Yeah, they they don't it's some people do, yeah, but when he's like also people are scared here more than I think other countries, because like we have a higher rate of police brutality, even among like even if you this is what's actually crazy. Even if you took the the police brutality uh from the black community and the black brown community out of the picture, the American police, if you just take the white people, the American police are more brutal towards poor white people than in other than police are in other countries. If you took the black and brown population out of prison and you just left the white prisoners, they're still over we'd still have the highest pop prison population in the world. America's a deeply corporatist, fascistic country. Like I'm not trying to say that to be like edgy or ooh, everyone's a fascist. I hate when people do that. Because most people aren't, yeah, but like truly, but the system inherently is. Yeah. Um and people, I think subcon they may not consciously understand it, but they subconsciously know. Because, like, like, for example, a cop may legislatively, a cop may not be able to come in here and shoot everybody, but they can. You see what I'm saying? I'll pay what they can't, yeah. But but they can.

SPEAKER_02 43:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:29

And people subconsciously understand that. So it it makes it a little more.

SPEAKER_00 43:33

Um is there a I guess for San Francisco, but for America. I appreciate that you were like at least a little bit hopeful back there. Like, is there is there like a is there a point in no return where because you know you and I both know a lot of native San Franciscans, native Barry people who've had to leave, right? Yeah, to fucking Sacramento and to Oregon and Texas another big spot. That makes me cry.

SPEAKER_01 44:01

Like have rappers, at least as rappers.

SPEAKER_00 44:06

They've had to leave. Is there a genuine point where going back again, I guess, to that Dean Preston thing, right? Um, where there are just not enough people left here uh that uh remember the soul of San Francisco or are like here in big enough numbers to fight for it. Do you do you feel like there's a point at which San Francisco truly is lost?

SPEAKER_01 44:27

Um, yes. If if if if we go two more generations down this path, it's over. Because they'll have no like because a lot of a lot of activism and a lot of this, like a lot, a lot of the people hanging on uh, you know, it's nostalgic. They're they're they're romanticizing the past, it's nostalgia. Eventually that those people are gonna fuck off or die or whatever the case may be. And there's gonna be generations who have no real conception of the past and it's just gonna look like pages in a history book or something, so they're not gonna long for not gonna know what it was. Exactly. I have no conception of what that was like, so how would I would even, you know, and and if if San Francisco continues down this path the way it's going, then yeah, it's it's over. And the the thing is actually, there's there's another there's another revolutionary spirit that people don't talk about. But if if the white-collar upper middle class institutionalists start facing the same material conditions of like the factory workers because of AI shit, yeah, you might see things get wild. Yeah, you might no, seriously, if if these like really highly competitive, smart people who weren't born into extreme wealth, who had to compete in these institutions to to make a living have the rug ripped from under them. Ooh, they were told everything was supposed to work out. Oh, get a STEM degree, it's gonna work out. You're starting to see more and more of those people. There's like fucking like coders doing DoorDash now. Like it's getting silly.

SPEAKER_00 45:45

Yeah. So yeah, I think I worry that not worry, but like I I feel like not enough people outside San Francisco understand how weird it is over here and the reasons for which it's weird. Like this idea of you know, kid children earning like it is not uncommon. You and I both probably either directly or indirectly know like a few dozen people under the age of 30 making like damn near a million dollars a year. Yeah, right. Multiple actually, it's a good idea. Yeah, exactly. So many, right? And living in apartments truly like you would think they were a year out of college, you know, working at Starbucks. Like it's such a strange culture, right? To be like, I I walk into people's homes and they've uh they won't have a bed frame, they won't have a couch, and they're making 1.2 million gross. Like that, it's such a strange like part of the subculture to like it's I guess that the part about San Francisco money that I don't understand is like you're not even doing anything with it. Like you're not even having fun with it. Yeah, and people will get stuck.

SPEAKER_01 46:49

You're thinking like Miami here or something.

SPEAKER_00 46:50

I guess people get stupid, rich. They're they're everybody's driving a fucking paris outside.

SPEAKER_01 46:55

Like it's it's it's so rich for no reason. Well, it's a different kind of wealth though. It's it's how do I say this? It's it's it's like a brainier wealth. Yes, and that's the thing, it's not like you know, some guy, because like you know, my if you look at like Miami or Los Angeles or something, yeah, um it's a deeply like hedonistic kind of Hollywood, you know, Wall Street player, salesman, rapper, musician, pop star wealth. In in the bay, it's more nerd shit. Yeah, it's like you have really powerful nerds and they don't even know what to do with the money. They just they just put it in the bank and go, hey, that's that's tight.

SPEAKER_00 47:38

You know, well, dude this is this is my theory too. It's like you and I both know what we were talking about before we started rolling about like candidates for different types of office in the Bay Area that are like 100% like wholly owned subsidiary, right? Of like some company or of some billionaire. And the thing I find interesting is like these guys, they're almost all guys, these guys are like genuinely the least charismatic people I've ever met. And the thing I'm like fascinated by is like you would think the money would be able to buy better candidates. You would think you'd be able to find more interesting, amusing people, right? Yeah. Why if you're dropping, dude, if I'm dropping two million dollars, that's like nothing, but if I'm dropping like 10 million dollars on a race to like buy out a candidate, buy the outcome, I want a charming motherfucker. Like, I these guys are finding some of the most dull people I've ever seen.

SPEAKER_01 48:28

Well, but why is that? It's it's because it's it's not a well, for some people, there's people who are deeply charismatic. I hate Donald Trump, he he's charismatic. Sure. Um, but you know, it it's not it's not about that. Like if we if you look at like this is like kind of the outside of politics, but if you look at uh Barry Weiss, Barry Weiss puts herself in front of the camera and she's like leading CBS news. She she's not a great in front of the camera person. She doesn't have that razzle dazzle, yeah. But she has ingratiated herself with people like Larry Ellison and stuff like that, you know, who uh bought the company. And so that's more important than actually being likable. It's it's if you can convey to people who are powerful that you will do your best to serve their interests and and kind of, you know. Could be any worthy vessel. Exactly. You you'll you'll explain, you'll you'll create propaganda for for your interests and you will proudly and confidently uh, you know, you know, repeat the talking points to everyone else, then they will put money in in behind you. They don't like give a fuck if you're a great performer or you engage in political pageantry or anything like that. They want to make sure that at the end of the day, you'll sign the bills they want you to sign and you'll tell everyone else what they what you want them to hear and keep the show on the road. That's that's because like that's the reason why like a lot of these politicians. Yeah because like technically it's like they should all, in terms of at least in how they present themselves and presentation, be populists because that's how you get votes.

SPEAKER_02 49:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:47

But that's clearly not the case. So, you know.

SPEAKER_00 49:50

I want to ask about um at what point you sort of you become aware enough of all of this and decide that you want to meme it.

SPEAKER_01 50:01

So I didn't, I don't know. So basically, this is all happening really weird. So basically, when I went when was that little bit of trouble with the bold italic, I was like trying to figure out a way. I'm like, okay, so how can I still have how can I get the ability to speak with a large audience without having to run through all these fucking hurdles and like kiss ass and do all the shit? And also if you do that, you kind of lose the message you want to create in the first place. It gets it gets watered down. And I'm like, okay, well, I know this is you know, back in like 2015, 2016 and shit. I'm like, okay, well, memes go viral real relatively easily. And this is when meme pages start first started becoming kind of a thing on like Facebook and Instagram. So it's like, okay, what if I make a meme page and then I build it, I just build an audience just strictly making memes for a little bit, and then I kind of build a following, and then I slip other shit in. And then I'm like, okay, well, how do I go viral? And I'm like, okay, so and then I kind of figured this out. So the Bay Area as a whole has a little bit of an inferiority complex. Yeah, not San Francisco, not Oakland, not Berkeley, but the rest of it, including San Jose, which is very funny because they're the largest city, but they like act like a very insecure suburb. It's kind of funny. I like that about them. San Jose has the biggest chip on its shoulder. Yeah, they do, because they're the biggest city in the bay, and no one gives a fuck. Exactly. Totally deserved L chip on the shoulder. Yeah. Well, it's because they're kind of LA maxing. It's like a big it's like 15 suburbs of a trench coat energy.

SPEAKER_00 51:21

That's kind of but sorry, I don't I I have a lot to say about San Jose, but I won't get back to what you were saying. Um, yeah, so you you just realize that it's like a more potent like delivery mechanism.

SPEAKER_01 51:31

Yeah, so I was like, okay, so what am I gonna do? You know those like Facebook groups based around towns where it's like this is the conquered happenings or whatever the fuck, or Vallejo this, or Richmond this. And I was like, okay, what I'm gonna do, I was gonna make very highly specific memes about these smaller, generally overlooked barrier cities. I'm gonna post on these community pages, and I'm gonna post, and this is back when you can as the page, not as yourself, join these communities and to let you in because there wasn't a lot of differentiation between a personal account and like a public account. Now there is, but back it wasn't. And so I would be like, I'm Barry memes and let me in. They'd be like, okay, you know, and then like I'd make a meme about Hayward and the Hayward page and make a meme about Fremont and the Fremont page, you know, Berkeley, Vallejo, Richmond, whatever, Concord, Antioch, and and in all these communities, they were all the we were getting all these likes. And so I was funneling these community pages into Bayeria memes. And and I and I knew the memes were gonna be somewhat resonant, even if they weren't that funny, because I knew enough about these cities to make hyper-specific jokes that only someone who knows this area could could make.

SPEAKER_02 52:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:31

And so it worked, and like within like it was actually crazy. Like in the first like month or two, I had like 10,000 followers just from these community pages. Damn. I was like, oh fuck. And then like I kind of went from there, and then we like within the first year, we had like 50,000 on Facebook. It's like 2016, 2017, Facebook was kind of still a thing. And uh then I went to Instagram, did the same thing, and I I linked the accounts so people could easily follow from one to the other, and it and it just kind of went like that. And then I started doing a real world, then I went public other page, like, hey, I'm a writer, check this out, which everyone hated at first. I was like, fuck you. They didn't even read like fuck you, please, pussy. And I'm like, okay. And I was like, all right, whatever. And then um, you know, but slowly they started to accept it. Like, yeah, about like the first week, everyone's like, fuck you, and then then like a couple people are like, actually, yeah, you actually have quite a bit of promise at a right as a writer. Like you were like, this is this is better than I thought. You're a really good writer. I I I'm gonna say, I think you're a better writer than a better than a memer. Yeah, I think. I think I am too. I just you know, I I used to make a lot of memes and actually be good at it. Now I don't care at all anymore. It's like I like I trap a whole berry in the car with me and lock the door. It's like that you can't get out now.

SPEAKER_00 53:34

I think you I heard you talk about this idea that like I think you said that the pay I I derailed the page with my angry political rants. Yeah, 100%. And I um but I'm curious about something where like, do you feel like how intentional of a bait and switch was that of like, all right, I'll get you all in for the sweet nectar of the memes? But then I'm gonna like give you some like genuinely angry progressive takes. That it was it was always the plan. Yeah, I just didn't think the plan would work.

SPEAKER_01 53:59

It's crazy. I'm like this. You didn't hear 200k. Yeah, like what like fucking like it was like a a couple months ago, but it's like it was like what was it, like 28 million people have interacted with your content last month and I waited. And then I would never really conceptualize what that looks like in my because I I don't think about anything. I just I go and I just go and I'm like, okay, and some shit hits and some shit doesn't. Like sometimes I'll get like 400 likes and sometimes I'll get like 50,000 likes, and it's like whatever. But like when I really look at the like the numbers and it's like 50 million people have come into contact with your page the last 30 days or something like that, I freak the fuck out. Yeah, so I'm like, oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 54:32

But you know, because your face is in so many of the posts.

SPEAKER_01 54:34

Yeah, because I'm just talking shit, and that's things.

SPEAKER_00 54:35

Some of those videos go viral, some don't, and it's just like I wanna okay, I want to stay with the topic of uh running a meme page for for a little bit here, right? Do you ever you you got you have this job in uh in tech sales, right? You run this very successful meme page. Do you ever think about like I don't think I want to write anymore? Like, I think I want to quit. Warm intro is brought to you by WeFunder. WeFunder created this thing called the community round that lets you raise money directly from your community. So instead of going to VCs and rich people, angel investors, you can go straight to your friends and your family and your customers. And you know, but this is not a traditional ad read. I used WeFunder for my company three times. We ran three rounds on WeFund, we raised over a million dollars. And I found that it completely changed how everybody felt about our business. Our customers all of a sudden didn't feel like they were just customers, they felt like they were owners in the business. They shopped with us more, they told their friends about us. My team felt like what we were doing was important because our community had shown up to invest in us. I tell every founder I can find to go raise a WeFund around. Especially for companies that care about community, there is nothing greater you can do than letting that community invest. Go to wefunder.com slash join to check it out.

SPEAKER_01 55:59

Um, I always want to write. I I like it's weird. This might sound funny because we're doing like a social media like podcasting, but like the the the social media meme side of it's like what I often want to quit. Because I don't care about it that much. And I used to be way more hyped on it where I used to make memes and I used to care if they were funny and stuff, uh, back when the page was first growing, but now I don't care anymore. I I would love personally where I just you know keep the pages what it is and post randomly, but just focused full time on like writing books and articles and stuff like that. That's where I'd ideally like to be. I'm not gonna quit the meme page, but like every now and then I'll get into an argument or see a comment or something. I'm like, why do I even fucking do this? Yeah. And then, but you know, but yeah, so it I never want to quit writing because it's like the one thing to me that's like actually therapeutic and helps me with like depression or whatever I'm going through. Whereas like memes feel like a second job that I'm not always compensated for. It's not as like passionate or like I don't love doing it, I just kind of do it because like I'm decent enough at it to where I've been able to get an audience. But if if it wasn't that, I probably wouldn't be just making memes for the sake of making memes if it wasn't already popular within itself.

SPEAKER_00 57:02

So how do you uh how has being like famous in the Bay Area been for you? Like, because I I saw you was uh and some podcasts where you were like, I just gotta recognize outside. Yeah, yeah, it's what's that like?

SPEAKER_01 57:14

Um actually where I was when I was driving from my house to BART and some guy honked at me, he's like, Hey, and I'm like, what the fuck? And I'm like, am I am I not like a black key of soul? My windows down. I'm like, are you serious? Like, how did you know? That's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 57:27

Well, it was in a car, so he just like drove by and I've never, this is the first time I'm getting like hype mugged this hard on this podcast. Brutally frame mobile.

SPEAKER_01 57:35

Frame mobical cord is all spikes. No, but um, you know, I it's cool. It it's it's weird, it's not bad, it's just weird. Because like I'll be like at Lake Merritt or something, or I'll be at like some fucking talker or something in Oakland, or I'll be here in San Francisco doing whatever. And someone's like, Abe. Yeah, and I don't know where the conversation's gonna go or how to continue on when you just go ahead, and I'm like, yeah. And I just I awkwardly run away. So I don't know, because I don't know what to talk about. And then what do they expect me to be like a meme lord? Like, what do we do it live? Like, you know, so I don't, I don't really, I don't really know what to do.

SPEAKER_00 58:07

What's well okay, I want to talk about that word because I I mean about what I'm gonna call this episode. I'm gonna introduce you. Um, how do you feel about the word meme lord?

SPEAKER_01 58:16

I I've I've embraced it. Well, I'm I have like an editor at our associate editor for broke ass steward, and it's like in my area meme lord, that's like my little like subtitle. Um, I don't care that much. It it doesn't, it's kind of it's like a meaningless thing. Also, everyone's kind of a meme lord now because almost everyone makes memes or little like tweets that could be converted into memes, so it's like everyone does it. I just got like popular during it. So I guess that's the distinction. Do you think memes will exist in like a hundred years? I do. I do. I I I I don't think as long as people find silly images with dumb captions funny, yeah, they'll exist.

SPEAKER_00 58:48

Does it ever feel like uh um yeah, literally doing stand-up comedy on the Titanic, like after the iceberg is hit?

SPEAKER_01 58:56

Yeah, I know it really does feel like we're like just basically clowns at the end of the empire. That's kind of like that's kind of what that's kind of what it feels like, where it's like, man, everything sucks, but who that's it's kind of what the job is now, because it's like it in in like in an American sense, and I'm not trying to like be like take us out of San Francisco, but it it does kind of feel like things are changing. Yeah, and not for the better, and and things are getting more overt. Like, remember back when like when we went to war with the Middle East, but they lied at least? Yeah. Now they're just like, hey, fuck it. Where do you go in? What are you gonna do, bitch? Like that's kind of the energy. We're kidnapping the president for the oil.

SPEAKER_00 59:29

Hey. This was this is a really critical thing. I I felt this way very strongly when um the Venezuela thing happened, not the thing when we kidnapped Maduro. Um, and I like watched Trump the next day, and that was the distinct feeling I had was like there is a there's like a quiet decency to lying about something, you know, where you're like, okay, like if I lie to you about like, hey man, no, I'm not I'm not stealing from you, right? Yeah, yeah. We're both I'm making a nod to the fact that we both understand that stealing is bad. Yeah, and that I also have your best interest at heart, and I'm not taking from you, right? But when I stop lying about it, that is a particular like degradation that I don't think it's talked about enough. Like, even lying about something is paying some respect to the idea, right? And we just stopped lying about it.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:18

Well, yeah, because it's it's completely masked off. The the the powerful don't care, they're not afraid of you, they don't care what you think. Yes, we're a brutal empire. Yes, if Iran doesn't do what we want, we're doing a genocide. What are you going to do? I don't care. I'm not scared of you. Yeah, it's it's that. And I think I think the the Israel-Palestine thing made it made it like like everything, you know how like people talk about like legal precedents. It's like once something is is recognized in like the cultural zeitgeist, then it may be evil, but it stops being shocking.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:50

And so when you have a live stream genocide, which is what's going on, which was what happened in Gaza and now is kind of expanded into Lebanon, and it's you're just seeing just mass slaughter on your phone every day. The president can go, Hey, I'll destroy your civilization. Yeah. Happened before. Yeah. When you know you still went to your job and you know, you still fucking walked your dog and the world kept spinning. So you didn't do shit about that one. All you're gonna do shit about this one.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:16

So that's that's basically what it is.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:17

The older I get, the more I find that like um human beings will basically get on with and get used to just about fucking anything. Yeah, no, it's true. Dude, like I remember you remember when the sky turned orange during the pandemic?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:31

Yes, yeah. Deeply, deeply fucking sad.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:34

So for people who you know don't remember, wildfires uh were happening close to San Francisco, and it led to the is sky in San Francisco with no exaggeration turning like bright fucking orange, right? And um, I remember I got a call from my aunt who lives in the South Bay, and uh I was just going to work and I'm like going to whatever, like restaurants, just do living my life like eating burritos. Yeah. And my aunt called me and she was like, Hey, are you scared? And at first I was like, why would I be scared? And I was like, no, she's the only fucking person in my life having a normal reaction to this. Like this isn't normal. It's the sky's orange, and the speed was a super bizarre.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:10

Like other people's belongings are raining on you.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:12

Yeah, and I'm just here eating burritos, like as if as if the sky isn't fucking orange, right? And so there's like an interesting thing that I keep finding this out, especially in American society, uh, I think also in California, is like you expect there to be this big moment where everybody's gonna be like, what the fuck? Yeah, doesn't happen. That's not how human beings work. People will get because the cost of acknowledging that things have gotten too bad, the cost of acknowledging that things are like weird is is so high for your existence. Because then that means that maybe you shouldn't go to work. Maybe you shouldn't maybe you should care about what's happening around you. Exactly. May maybe your life isn't what you thought it was. And that is a very scary thought. And to avoid that thought, people will get used to just about anything.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:55

Yeah, no, it normalization of catastrophe is just like the it just leads to the apocalypse. Yes. Like like people being okay with, you know, whether it's you know, escalating environmental damage or environmental crises or like genocide or ethnic cleansing or just or just basically, you know, the ice people, which was like low-key kind of had parallels to Nazi Germany. Like people just coming in with guns and grabbing people, and they don't have to show you they're not like just you're vaguely brown, get in the car.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:23

Like, yeah, like this. No, I mean DHS will will post the DHS Twitter account, will post straight up like actual Nazi propaganda. Yeah. Like, dude, Steve Bannon knocked out a like a full no confusion about it. He didn't even try to deny it, a full Heil Hitler, right? It wasn't even disgust.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:41

Yeah, well, I'm slight about it, but like that was uh that was a that was one of the most aggressive like Heil Hitler salutes I've ever seen. Yeah, and he's like, it's a Rowan salute. And I'm like, he did it like three times. And he had the little he has a little Nazi haircut with the shaves. Like it's like, bro, we're not dumb. Just say it, okay?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:55

Just we know. What's okay? But this is the point I want to ask you about, right? We've been talking about this idea of like it's kind of two parallel ideas. One of like the hypocrisy and how like annoying and painful that is to be around, right? Then the hypocrisy of San Francisco. And then on the other end, we're talking about like normalizing and getting to a point where we don't even feel like we need to lie about it. We can just openly hate these things. I guess the question to you is like, would we rather San Francisco remain hypocritical? Or would would we rather get to a place where people just come out and say how they actually feel and are openly start to be like, yeah, no, I don't want any poor people here.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:34

So so that that's an interesting point you made because that's kind of the difference between like oligarchs and corporatists. Yes. That's that's the main difference. So the so the the Trump administration kind of being like, we're Nazis now, fuck you, is more of an oligarch thing, where it's like, I have the power, you don't, what are you gonna do? Where corporatists have the power and you don't, but they don't like trouble, they don't like making a mess, they want to be there want they want there to be a level of decorum and politeness.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:01

And and that's the thing. It I don't know, neither's good. Um, but because being getting constantly gaslit sucks too, which is why I have trouble with like, and I know I don't dislike Short Cottie. He was me and him got along with actually really well, but like my only critique of him is like I can't trust him too much because he's so rich. If it wasn't that I'd be like totally on board, it's just like you're well, you're way too much fucking money. Same thing to Tom Steyr. It's like you say the right things, but you have way too much fucking money. It makes me really uncomfortable. Yeah, because you guys can lie and then do whatever you're gonna do. And then I'm like, I supported him. Like, and then it's like the t-shirt thing, you supported that guy who did this, you're a whatever, sure, you know. Um, so I think that's what it is. I I don't think either one's good. I think they're both overtly bad in certain ways. I think constantly being misled leads to a type of political psychosis, which is what you have here in San Francisco. And I also think overt fascism, which is what you're seeing from the Trump administration in certain right wing governments and states and certain cities, um, is also deeply. Problematic too. Because one thing about the Trump administration that found really interesting is I didn't really realize how many people took their social cues from the president. Yeah. Cause like I don't give a fuck what Trump or Obama or any of these people say or act like in terms of how I am going to, you know, experience the world or interpret the world. But I did realize that like when Obama was president, everyone was on some like, we're all this together, is having like energy a little bit, which is what I miss about the Obama. Obama was a demon too. However, the vibes were better. You're like a vibing or demon. Like that's yeah. You know, Trump is like, the vibes are horrible. The vibes are so bad. It's like, yeah, everyone's just like like you have people who just sit in their house all day, leafy green suburbs on the far left and the far right. You have people on the far right talking about we need Adolf Hitler to come back to bring back the Holy Roman Empire. And then you have people on the far left left saying now did nothing wrong. Like it's like, can you guys shut the fuck up? I'm like, this is getting so ridiculous. So that's it, it's it it and that's the thing, it leads to these things. So it's like, I don't think either one's good. I guess by Obama point, I guess I would I would prefer the San Francisco thing slightly more than like Hitler. Yeah, but I think you know, it doesn't mean I like it. It's just it's a it's a bad situation to be in. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:17

But I think this is a really interesting like um thing that everybody ought to think about. Because I think in America we have something, like I call it, I'm sure there's some guy's written like dedicated his life to work about it. I'm acting like it's my theory, but like it's this sort of transparency bias. America has more than any country that I've ever lived in. I find that Americans are so partial to somebody seeming transparent, yeah. Right. And will Americans will very readily conflate transparency with honesty, right? Yeah. Well, you will have like uh Trump is a great example of this, but Americans just have a real soft spot for some guy coming out and saying crazy shit, right? Yeah. Which is transparent, but is it honest? Like, I or is it good? I just like I think this is the part that I get to often with my like very, very, very like political friends on either side. Is like, does it feel good? Like, do you like, do you enjoy this? Like, is it not not do you enjoy being political, but like what the country is right now, especially you see this with like Trump's orders? I'm I genuinely I'm like, is it is this fun? Like the to your point about the vibes, like, I don't think you're having a good time. Like, this just seems all of it seems way too much.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:28

You're you're right. I I don't think anyone's having a good time.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:32

And I think it's it's it's a bunch of people having a terrible time, thinking they're winning one argument away from having a great time.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:41

That's really the problem. And and the problem about the San Francisco like corporatism versus oligarch thing is like the corporatism will empower the oligarch because people will get tired of being gaslit and they'll go to some tell it like it is guy. Yeah. Where it's basically like, like, for example, like um, you know, political correctness basically annoyed the country into fascism. That that type of shit does happen where it's like, stop telling me what it can't say, stop arguing with me about this. I'm gonna go with this tell it like it is guy, who is an absolute piece of shit, and he's gonna lie to you, but he's gonna say it. But at least he's not like, well, wait, it's yeah, let's not woke or whatever the fuck. I would much rather wokeness than ice on the streets. And I think wokeness is annoying too. I think it's all dumb. But it's like, and wokeness is a CISI. Obviously, this is not people from class consciousness, but hey, have fun. But look.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:27

Um, but you know, it is that's what I say to my wife every single time. Like, if we're driving around, we I live in Berkeley, uh, which is, you know, it is the meme in many ways. Um Berkeley's so nice, though.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:38

I'll make fun of Berkeley, but every now and then they're like, this is really not that's a very pleasant.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:41

Dude, I uh I'll drive around Berkeley and sometimes I'll see somebody that like genuinely looks like a cartoon of like a like a hipster was like a few years ago, where they'll like just be this like cartoonishly Berkeley like hippie person. And I ja every single time I'm like, that's the FBI. That's the that's the FBI fully masquerading as a hippie. Exactly. Like the people will people genuinely commit to these characters, like people are like fully will, they'll so become their entire life. And I don't understand why they do it. Yeah, I don't get it.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:09

It's like I don't comforting. It is, but it's like it's like dying alert. Personality off the shelf. Exactly. But it's like it's like it's crazy that someone just wakes up every day and they want to like be a caricature of something that's passed. Yeah. They're entirely they want to be like an artifact their entire life, socially.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:22

Okay, well, this is a this is a good question. Do you ever feel like you're an artifact? Do you ever feel like like the thing you aspire to, like like angry writer is an artifact, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:31

Yeah, no, but it's not it's not like I'm not like dress, I like I'm wearing like fucking jeans and an E40 shirt. I'm not like, yeah, no, you're not gonna you're not LARPing or like you're not college. Right, because usually people who dress like whatever they think they are, they're not. That's kind of what I've what I've I've seen. They're like, I'm a progressive, I have the Obama shirt. It's like yeah, enough of you. Enough, enough with this, whatever this is. Yeah, but like I I just think people should lead like lead lives based on their natural inclinations as long as they're not bad.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:57

Dude, I uh okay, this actually um it sets up the question I've been wanting to ask you this whole time, which is when you see um when you encountered like um negative stimulus in your life, right? Like you some bad shit happens. Yeah um with you, I'm curious about this more than anyone I've interviewed, which is is your first knee-jerk reaction anger or humor?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:22

Both. Yeah, it's it's highly dependent upon the situation. It it I feel like subconsciously everyone makes a decision on how to handle a thing before they consciously know what they're doing. Where it's like they they assess a threat and the futility of confront confrontation.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:37

And they based on where it scores is how they behave. And if I feel like if you're a relatively smart person, you can kind of navigate. Now there's people who always react with humor or always react with like passive aggression or overt aggression. I I feel like with me it's highly dependent upon the situation. Yeah. So it's like if I think that this could potentially lead to an outcome that I that I think is good, then um I if if I think anger's the right way to do it, then be angry. If I think humor is the right way to do it, uh use humor. I think, for example, if someone's breaking into your house, you don't make a joke. You know. But if you're if you're trying to, you know, make a point that may be not incredibly popular in the American zeitgeist, then lacing it with humor makes it more acceptable.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:23

That's kind of where I see it.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:24

No, dude, because I um I was thinking about this with you, because you truly are like, from what I can see online, I've until today was just uh another follower of the meme page, right? Um if you created a chart of like angry and then funny, yeah, you you might be the only person I know that's like maxed out on both.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:42

Yeah, no, I go, I go, I go, yeah, because I mix them together. That's the whole thing. Yeah. And it's like I I think that's the way because anger is annoying. If someone's always mad all the time, it's like, bro, shut up. Yeah. You know, smile a little bit, do something. Like I it reminds me that Kat Williams show of like burger gang banging on breakfast, like you summer down. But like Yeah. It it but like you have to, you have like the thing is it's humor, I think, is the great equalizer in all things. It's how people relate, it's how people connect, at least initially, when you don't know each other very well. You crack a joke and you're like, oh, this guy's cool. Um, I I think using that um and and and to be funny is to be genuine oftentimes. If you're trying to be funny, oftentimes it won't land. Um, and I think if you're genuinely upset about something, you can naturally make it funny just by how you're expressing it. Because I think whatever I I said this on a podcast with Totio San Francisco. I uh I did a podcast a while back ago, but I kind of said this point and I, you know when you're like kind of free song, but it's like, oh god, that makes sense. It's like whatever is authentic will will will will will stick with you and it'll it'll have every element of emotions, I think. Like if you're saying something authentically in like a like a five-minute diatrap, there's gonna be a part of it that's funny, there's gonna be a part of it that's captivating, there's gonna be a part of it you might disagree with a little bit, and a part of it that you do, and you kind of grapple with all those things. I think the thing with my page is like I if I'm mad about something, I'm not faking being mad. I actually do think it's bad. And I kind of go on a rant where I'm not even thinking, just words are coming out of my mouth, and I may say something as a joke subconsciously or like conscious enough, because you know you're talking to something in your mind. Where do the fuck does that come from? You know what I mean? So it's like it's like that. So it's like as long as I'm not overthinking it, there'll the marriage will be there between humor and legitimate contempt for what I'm talking about. Yeah. I think that's what makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:22

I think this is uh another thing we were talking about, I think, before we started rolling, which is I don't think it's possible to be, I mean, you can get collapter, but I don't think it's possible to be genuinely funny to other people unless there's some kernel of truth. Exactly. Yeah, it's I I think um uh it's it's funny. Uh uh Bill Burr was talking about this one time about, you know, Brian Regan, yes, uh comedian who's a famously very clean comedian and all that. And he was uh he Bill Burr was talking to Jerry Seinfeld, and he said, When I look at Brian Regan, I it's very funny, but I can assure you what that when the shit that he's talking about was happening to him, he was not responding with humor. He would genuinely angry in the motor. And he has found a way to make it funny now. Yeah. Um and I think like I think you do that really well, man. Like I really, I really, really think that um you're able to channel your anger into humor better than most anyone I know.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:15

I think it's the most effective thing. Yeah. You know, because I think, like, for example, like I remember when I was like 19 years old, I got into a fight and I got arrested. And I I was only in jail for a night. It wasn't like some cool prison thing. It was like jail for one night, but I was like sitting there, I'm like, nope. Yeah. Fuck this. Because like, have you have you ever been arrested ever? No. Okay, it's fantastic. You should try it. How do you recommend it? No, but um, no, like you're in a holding cell, and I had this moment where like this is a horrible okay. So I got arrested in Martinez, and we went to uh room nine, which is this room in the Contra Costa County jail. And the thing is this Contra Costa is a big county, and it's a very eclectic in a very uncomfortable way in room nine. So you'll like Walnut Creeks in Contracasta County, where it's like rich people, and you know, some guy got pulled over in his Ferrari with a DUI and he's in there. And then you have Richmond in Contracasta County back then too. It was like gang members who got into like a shootout and you're all in the same room getting processed. And I was sitting in there and I was drunk, and I got into a fight, and the guy I got into a fight with got arrested too. So we're in there together. So it's like even more awkward. They'd like there's no separation. Does you guys talk in the room? Yeah, because like halfway through we're like, bro. Well, what are we doing? It was a dumb situation. He pulled knives on me. It was a whole thing. It was a whole fight. It was a great day. Anyway, everyone, everyone had a great time. But um, we're in there together, and I kind of just made this like mental notice like I need to avoid this because this is really stupid. It's we're not even scared, it's uncomfortable. Yeah, not also there's one toilet. So you have like 30, 40 dudes from like all over Contra Cross County, every walk of life, awkwardly in a room together. Yeah, no one's talking, everyone's a little tense, and there's one toilet looks like it's been through hell. Yeah, like it's like metal sticking into the wall, and it's like carved up and shit. And there's a it's it's just I was like, I don't want to do this. Yeah, yeah. So that was no, that'll do like a way to deal with anger that isn't overtly illegal.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:01

So that makes sense. Uh, I think now when you uh to kind of close this out, I have a couple of questions for you. Um one is, you know, now when you look at your career, right? Like um you you see yourself, you know, you you write for Broke Ass Stewart, which is a great publication, right? You um you've written a bunch of stuff for yourself, you're on this main page, all this. Like, um I guess how do you see your work? Like, do you ever try to think about what you're doing? Do you have a sense where like, this is where my career is headed?

SPEAKER_01 1:17:35

Like, yeah, how do you see the work that you do? In terms of writing, this might sound very weird. It's like the least writer answer. I don't really think about it. Yeah, I just do shit. Yeah. Like that's the thing. It's like I want like I'll like I'll the with the Brooke Stewart articles, I oftentimes write them 12 hours before publication. I'm like, we're gonna knock out 500,000 words, we're gonna see what happens. What are you gonna talk about today? I don't know. Like, I'll literally just like go to like Google, I'll like type in like San Francisco and Google News, and I'll just scroll, read one article. I'm like, we're talking about this. And I have no plan, there's no structure. I just go and then I'm like, look, Stuart, we got another one. You know, or like if I'm writing a book, like I'm I'm working on a novel right now. Um, but you know, like I it started with just a bunch of stupid, like it's like a becoming a very serious book, and it started with like poop jokes. Yeah, it started with like a joke about a guy shitting his pants in a hospital, and now it's like a deep question about AI. Like, what the fuck's going on? I I have no idea. Because I have like a natural, like it's weird. It's like I'll start off with a joke and then somehow I'll get into like a dark philosophy out of nowhere. Like, I don't know how that happens with me, but it's true. It happens when I talk to people too. Yeah, it's like if I'm not joking, it turns into this very serious, it like weirdly transitions into that. So, but I I'm not thinking about doing it. It's just like it's kind of naturally how I am, for better or worse.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:43

Dude, um, I you didn't say this name, but when I was asking you earlier if there's somebody like if you had a guy, like a person that you were trying to be like, honestly, the person I've been thinking about a lot for you is Bukowski.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:56

That's so fucking funny you mentioned that. That was the first this is so funny. That's did you did you you you just said that off the top of your head? Yeah. That's just crazy. Okay, so well when I was 16. Um when I was like a kid, I was doing dumb shit in high school. I was like trying to be a tough guy, it was stupid. But like I remember um fucking I was like I was also like a nerd, I was like a fat, like nerdy kid that was like trying to fight people. It was so stupid. Like, you know, like you know that like the fat kid with the glasses that punched that kid for saying he supports that was my energy. That was like I saw that kid, I'm like, oh my god, it's me. You're so cringe. That he asked the kid before he punches that kid. That was literally how I was. Yeah, it was so stupid. That's amazing. That's how I wasn't it was so cringe. I saw what I saw like, I was like, Jesus Christ, fuck. I didn't know those other ones. This is me. Well, we'll we'll put it though when I was 16 and I was in trouble. And because like the thing is, like, I I was like angry because I was like, I was like this, I was like this fat white kid in like continuation school with a bunch of like gangbagger kids because I was crashing out. And I also was like, I'm I'm like a white kid, so that comes with certain levels of privilege and stuff. Yeah, but my mom's also on meth and she I shouldn't say that like shit's fucked up, and like, and then I was in uh detention. I looked up like this book of contemporary American poetry, and I read Bluebird by Charles Bukowski when I was 16, which inspired me to write poetry. Oh wow. I swear to god, I've chills. This is not bullshit. Like the final I guess that's crazy because it's a whole thing. Yeah, but I I read Bluebird by Charles Bukowski, started crying. I was 16, which is ridiculous. And then I'm like, I'm gonna write poetry. All of it sucked, but I kept at it and then I then I kind of grew from there. So wow. Weird you mentioned that. I feel very good about myself now. Yeah, yeah, I literally have chills. Like there's a whole like a whole like real experience.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:37

I'll think dude. Um, no, you and I think it I guess it's just uh um I guess it's a compliment to you, and also just sort of a testimonial for the fact that like no, you become your heroes, like you do you they become a part of you. Yeah, that's the thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:53

It's like I like I don't want to say Bukowski's about here because I vibe with a lot of Bukowski and it's like there's not heals in it. There's a lot of people. There's a lot of stuff in there. Like, oh, he's right about right now. No, you're exactly like Bukowski. Every part of you is in this you're an even Holland Vapist. Exactly. No, no, no, no. But like he was a he was a great writer. He was a he was a polarizing person who was imperfect in a lot of ways. But um, yeah, no, I I can I can see that. And and and for a while, like I do as a writer, not as a person, but I do look up to Bukowski in a lot of ways because it's like a lot of times writing in particular, I feel like is an art form that's pretty much entirely hijacked by the wealthy. And there's really no there's really no voice that I feel like is genuinely working class writing. It's always someone from the outside writing about it for like artistic credentials, like, oh look, like like their bona fide is like I'm writing about something dark and crazy. But it's oftentimes someone from like an upper middle class background who got like an art of, you know, an English degree and then they wrote a book and it kind of that's the trajectory. A lot of people in more blue-collar environments don't get an English degree and become writers. Just it's it's it's rare. Um, and that's what I liked about Bukowski. It's like he's one of the one of those people who I felt like wasn't lying. Like I like Chuck Palinik a lot. Yeah, same as a writer. But if you read Fight Club, it's very much an artsy middle class guy writing about his faux machismo blue-collar violence. Yeah. And it's even the book is about his fascination from the corporate world going into this. But Bacowski, it's like, I know exactly what this is. Because like it's just because it a lot of his writing is just about how meaningless the job you're doing is. It's not about being violent or crazy, it's about this just banging your head against the wall and and being in and living in a world where you're forced to accept it.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:37

And that's the difference.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:38

No, I think you you set up my final question perfectly. And this is a big thing I've been thinking about in preparing for this, right? Which is you're right. There are not enough people, and for somewhat obvious reasons, right? There are not enough people from genuine working class backgrounds that are able to talk about that experience, right? Yeah. So instead, in the vacuum of that, you have these like upper middle class and wealthy people sort of cosplaying, right? And like trying to guess what it must be like. Um, so this is my final question for you. I actually I'll quote you here and I want to kind of get your reaction to this. So I think this is like a 2020 article by you, like some like Vallejo paper wrote this. Yeah. And they're like, um, you said, I'm a working class kid from the Bay Area. This doesn't make sense. I'm not supposed to have this. My question that kind of closes out for you is like, Do you still feel that way? Do you feel that? Yeah, I still feel that way. It's gonna happen more insane. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:29

Like because it's like when like celebrities hit me up or something, or like, I'm in a tech, I have a GD that I got from Vallejo Adult School. Okay. Like it, it's this the fact that I'm like in this world and take it as seriously as them makes absolutely no fucking sense. Like the fact that I'm like in a tech job with like serious people, and they're like, Abe, tell me what you think of this, and they're like, oh, like explaining some bullshit to them, and I'm like, it's just fake tech jargon. Yeah, it it it it all feels surreal. Like, I don't or or the media thing where it's like I'm going to like cocktail parties with like real writers from the chronicle and shit, and they're like looking to me for advice. You know how fucking ridiculous that feels. Like, where did you go to school? I'm like, I I I I literally dropped out, went to Vallejo Adult School, got a GD25 because I was working in a warehouse in Richmond. Shit sucked. I I I don't know. It sounds ridiculous, but that's like literally the truth. So it's like, you know. So you still feel like you don't know. I don't, I I don't want to say I don't don't or do deserve it. I just feel it's surreal. Yeah, like I don't know how I I got lucky. Like I got lucky, like there's a lot of like people who are talented and shit who just didn't get lucky. And I'm not saying I'm like the most talented person or anything like that. I just I got lucky. Yeah, I got fucking lucky, and I I I I I'm I I don't know what to do. I don't know what to say about it. I I because people like you got lucky. I'm like, you're right. Yeah, fuck. I didn't know this was gonna work. I really didn't. And that's why it's funny when brands like, how do you do it? I'm like, I don't know. Yeah, it's like, have you tried just being yourself? And you telling it to a brand's very funny. They're like, we want to be you, yeah, whatever you guys are doing. And it's like, you know. So that's that's that's the thing. So yeah, no, I still feel like a fish out of water. Because and the reason why I feel like a fish out of water is because like I notice, I guess, the more white collar my spaces get, yeah, the less it I'll I'll connect with people on like a social level, but like the less commonality there really is in our backgrounds and the things we can talk about beyond, you know, superficial conversation. And you feel a little off. Not like bad, but you feel like like, oh, I don't like sometimes you don't know what to say. Yeah. Or sometimes you don't know what's acceptable to say. Because one of the things about me is I just kind of speak from the top of my head. In some environments, when there's more at stake or there's more, I guess you could say metaphorically money in the room, that's not a great strategy. And and you can tell they'll like they'll they'll smile at you and then they will never talk to you again. Is that kind of energy? So I'm not mad as I get it, but that that's that's the thing I guess I kind of struggle with a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:51

So well, for what it's worth, man, like I I am nobody, I'm nothing, but you do deserve it. And um I really hope you never uh actually start watching what you're saying.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:03

Yeah, no, I feel like it's the enemy. That's it. So if I start thinking about it, I get really awkward, shy. I don't know what to do anymore. Like, if there's a thought in my mind, I'm ruined.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:11

It's like I'm but I'm fucked. But yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:13

If there's a thought in my mind, I'm ruined. Uh hey Woodlift, thanks so much for being on the podcast. This is beautiful. This is great. Warm intro is produced and edited by G1 Moon and Alex Hinkle. Hosted by me, Chima Shro.