How Behavioral Threat Experts See What Others Miss (And How to Start Seeing It Yourself)

Most people rely on instinct when something feels off—but instinct without clarity doesn’t lead to action. And if you’re carrying a gun but don’t see the threat coming, it doesn’t matter what you’re carrying.

In this episode, Behavioral Threat Assessment Specialist Nikki Burgett breaks down how professionals move beyond gut feelings and start seeing behavior with precision. From understanding what “normal” actually looks like, to identifying subtle deviations that signal risk, Nikki reveals how threat experts turn vague unease into clear, actionable insight.

We dig into the “pathway to violence” and why dangerous behavior rarely appears out of nowhere—it builds, leaks clues, and follows patterns that are often missed by untrained eyes. Nikki shares how these signals show up in the real world, where organizations fail to act, and what separates awareness from meaningful intervention.

This isn’t about fear—it’s about clarity.
Because once you understand what to look for, you don’t just notice more… you understand what it means.

Story. Pattern. Action.

And after this conversation, you won’t just carry differently… you’ll see differently

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:00

It occurred to me it seemed like she was waiting to see if Mum was going to show up. And after about ten minutes of this repetitive behavior, mother never did show up, she took two steps closer to the father and the son, and started engaging the son in conversation. The interesting part about this was not necessarily her engaging with the son, it was that her ventral alignment, midline of the trunk, was always on the father, and she closed the distance down between her and him to within about half an arm's reach. And I'm watching this play out, and I'm like, this is bloody fascinating. Like I wanted to be great. Right. I realized after a few minutes, she had aligned herself and spatially, like proximically, she was close, close enough to him to give the impression of being with them. She went from being a stranger at the distances you would expect a stranger to stand and engage with a child to being aligned with the father talking to the son. And every impression that you would have, if you had just been glancing around this lineup, you'd have thought those three are together. That's a family for sure. No, she had on an ankle monitor under a sock, and it looked to me like she was doing her best to blend in and not be spotted. Hello and welcome to Making Shooters Better, brought to you by Laser Ammo. My name is Terry Vaughan. I'm a former British Royal Marine Commando, firearms instructor, and creator of the Dirt Dangerous Individual Recognition Training Personal Safety Programs. Now, when I think about the attentiveness of most people, particularly those who carry guns or those that don't carry guns, most people will tell you they're fairly attentive. But the reality is that's in the minority. Most people are not nearly as attentive to what goes on in their environment as they might think. Well, today's guest trains law enforcement from federal to state levels on how to spot clues to violence as early as possible. And today she's going to help all of us improve the way we see the world. Nikki Baguette is a behavioral threat assessment specialist with counterterrorism experience, honed, working as a contractor for the State Department. She's also the author of Surviving Violence, How to Prepare for, Prevent, and Respond to Violent Threats. And I am so bloody happy to welcome Nikki to the podcast. Hello, mate. Welcome.

SPEAKER_04 2:47

How are you, sir? It is great to finally be here. Um, you and I have known each other for for several years. And the funny thing is, it's like we could never even sit on each other's, sit in on each other's presentations. I know just to be able to sit down and have a conversation with you about this, this is it's fantastic. I'm excited.

SPEAKER_05 3:06

It really is. Yeah, I should clarify, you and I have ended up at the same conferences teaching in different rooms at the exact same time. And every time I arrive and I see your name on the roster, I'm like, oh, that's great. I'm gonna sit in on her, and then I'm like, bloody hell, it's at the exact same time. So I've I've missed not being able to come to one of your presentations.

SPEAKER_04 3:28

Well, and the same for me. And I think it we had joked earlier that uh they just knew the two of us should probably not be in the same room together.

SPEAKER_05 3:37

Do the two trouble. Yeah, too much trouble. So I will start asking guests the same thing. How old were you when you first started shooting or when you first shot a gun?

SPEAKER_04 3:49

So um the funny thing is my mom was a nurse and so she volunteered at Boy Scout camp, because I had two brothers, to be to um to be the nurse at Boy Scout Camp. Well, Boy Scout Camp covers um hunter hunter safety courses.

unknown 4:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:04

So starting at six and seven, I my mom just put all of us in. I mean, I I was treated like a boy because it was just easier to raise three boys than it was to raise two boys and one girl. So I was taking I I was shooting at six and seven, which even now to me sounds crazy, but that's I mean, I I clarified it. That's how old I was the first time I shot a firearm. And um then, you know, then you become a teenager and you've got other important things to do, like boys and friends and them all, and just but not not guns, at least not not for me. So then there was a huge gap. And it wasn't until I started uh I started going back wanting to go into law enforcement, and that first started with applying for the FBI. And that was funny because I never wanted to be an agent, I wanted to be an analyst, but uh they kept denying me for analyst position and they said, Yeah, sure. And it's like I'm not qualified for a computer, but you'll give me a gun. That doesn't make sense. So then then I was like, well, I better go back and you know, start training again. So I had um I had worked for the Marine Corps and one of the NCOs uh worked at FLETSI. And so he invited me out to do firearms training, um, not uh unofficially at FLETSI and that that was fantastic. And then I went into law enforcement and I got more firearms training there. So but that was that was in my 40s. So there's a there's a huge gap in there. So I think I started going back about 32 to 35. So when I started going back in and really training, and then um at 40, I went into law enforcement.

SPEAKER_06 5:46

Yeah, there was quite a gap.

SPEAKER_05 5:48

Do you remember whether you enjoyed shooting at the age of the city?

SPEAKER_04 5:50

I was a kid. Oh yeah. As a kid, I I really enjoyed it. The work um training uh at Fletsi, I really enjoyed. Um I I and when you have a good firearms instructor and you really do enjoy it. But I will say um when I did my firearms academy, uh, we got a 45 and I was absolutely horrible and I couldn't figure out what was wrong. And I kept asking my one of the firearms instructors, what am I doing wrong? He goes, I don't know, just keep shooting. So you know what happens. Just keep shooting. Well, he was like, Well, eventually you'll get better. It but that doesn't. It took me two years to undo what I learned in my law enforcement academy. Two years to to fix it. Because when you when those you just keep firing, you keep doing bad things, then you're just deeply ingraining those bad habits and to unlearn that it took a long time. I had to find I I think I went through like three more firearms instructors for them to try to fix what had what had happened. And that's that's really sad. That's really sad because that's what that's law enforcement training. So um I I I definitely knew that I wasn't where I needed to be, and I I pushed hard to get um to get the bet to get better training because as law enforcement you never know when you're gonna have to use that firearm.

SPEAKER_05 7:09

Yeah, no, I agree. And for those that don't know, explain what Fletsi is.

SPEAKER_04 7:13

Oh Flitzey is the federal federal law enforcement education training center.

unknown 7:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 7:20

So there's a few of them. So there's uh they the one that I attended was in New Mexico, Artisia, New Mexico. And they they train all the border uh border patrol down there. Um but that's they often invite law enforcement. So I did when I by the time I went into law enforcement, I was invited to do additional training down there. And it's great because I work for a small agency and they will do um we have no money for training. So I was either paying for it myself or going and finding free training and to for them to open for Federal Law Enforcement Training Center to open it to local law enforcement and say, all you have to do is get down here. We'll put you on barracks and we'll feed you and the training's free is is really fantastic.

SPEAKER_05 8:05

It amazes me to still hear so many police departments say similar things with budget restrictions or budget limitations. They're often having to choose one thing or the other rather than the whole pantheon of different trainings that they could or should be taking. They can only afford this and they don't get to do that. And it's crazy to me that those restrictions are placed on uh law enforcement guys and gals because these are skills they absolutely are going to need to execute their responsibilities and the job and profession. It's crazy to me.

SPEAKER_04 8:40

And I was reserve, so I I we always make the joke that I was half a cop. I got half of the training of a full-time police officer, but I went to work for a small agency and I put the uniform on and I had to do the whole damn job. I mean, there was no um, and no one knows the difference, right? I mean, they see you, they don't know that you only have half the training. And since then, I mean, I just spoke with uh one of our sheriffs and he said that he's changed his program. The state still only requires reservists to have half half of the training. So it's like it's like 300 and some hours um of training versus 600 or I don't I don't even know what it is anymore, but mine was like 395 hours or maybe less. And then um, so some agencies can mandate that their reserve officers go through the full training, which I think is fantastic. But um my agency was so small when I got there, three of us had attended the same academy. There were only four officers in that agency. So three three of us, so we got three half, so we got two and a half, we had one cop and a cop and a half. I don't know what's like this one kid that was there, and he was he was amazing. He was so smart, he was so well trained with his firearm. I think he'd been shooting since he was born. But um, he would be like, Hey, let's you and I ride together, and I would go, two half a cops, don't make a whole one. I go, No, we're not we're not riding together. But I had I showed up and they were like, Do you have a do you have a gun? Because we can't afford to give you one. I paid for half my uniforms, all my firearms weapons. I had to qualify with them, but um, my shotgun, my rifle, um, my sidearm, and then my backup, I paid for all of them. I won at one time I got fifty dollars for f for ammunition.

SPEAKER_06 10:28

One for ammo. That's it.

SPEAKER_04 10:30

That was it.

unknown 10:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 10:31

I paid to work there.

SPEAKER_04 10:33

I mean, uh I I paid to paid to work there.

SPEAKER_05 10:35

Cost you money to go do the job.

SPEAKER_04 10:37

Yes, it did. But it honestly, it gave me a lot of insight into the law enforcement side and what they need training wise. And so I started, I was still working my full-time job, so I would go um go pay for training and take copious amounts of notes, and I'd bring it back and I'd sit down with funny team and my agency and be like, this is what I learned. And so then that led to me becoming the training coordinator for um for the agency. And I did that for eight years.

SPEAKER_05 11:08

So it kind of ties in nicely with you teaching now behavioral threat assessment to law enforcement. But I kind of want to back up and ask, when was your own uh what was the catalyst for you to become interested in that area of law enforcement instruction or learning for yourself?

SPEAKER_04 11:31

So uh before I went into law enforcement, I was the head of security for a Fortune 500 company. And that it was one of those things where I was the facilities manager and we did this three million dollar build-out project on a on a building down in downtown Tulsa. And I started asking questions about security. And they go, Oh, yeah, we're so glad you asked, because you congratulations, you're now head of security too.

SPEAKER_01 11:56

Just because you asked that question.

SPEAKER_04 11:57

Yeah, yeah. That's not how your duties have now expanded to include one of my favorite things. Um, but I I started pushing for, I mean, I'm looking at the policies that were given from the parent company, which at that time was out of Chicago, and we've got lockdown. Um, my company had never even run a fire drill, which is not even like according to OSHA, you gotta have to do that. Yeah, so at least so I'm like, I I take what the parent company gives me, and I'm like, okay, so why don't we have anything for active shooter or active threat? And this is probably 2012. And they're like, Oh, you can't say that. And I have a whole legal team in Chicago telling me you can't say those words.

SPEAKER_05 12:37

You definitely before you went into law enforcement.

SPEAKER_04 12:40

This is before I went into law enforcement. Um workplace violence is is a big deal, and and it's a big deal on many levels. But active threat has suddenly become, you know, the cool thing to do. So, you know, monkey see, monkey do, the more people get attention doing it, the more people will use it to get attention and um use it to solve problems. So I I keep I keep saying it, and I'm like, well, I'm the new person and I'm just gonna keep saying it until somebody responds. Well, come 2014, there was a beheading in Moore, Oklahoma, which is about two hours away from Tulsa. And within 48, 24 to 48 hours, there was another incident at a UPS facility in um Arkansas. And that puts Tulsa directly in the middle between the two, because I think it was two hours um east, two hours west. So um I took those incidents and I went back to my legal team, and I'm like, how much closer does it need to be before you take me seriously? And they're like, oh, well, okay, well, here's some money, run with it. And of course, in in corporate, you you get money um for the first uh quarter, and if the second quarter isn't good and you still have money left, they're gonna take it away from you. So I spent every bit of that money on training. And um I I just really saw the need to be proactive, right? I mean, just because you're telling me that I'm not allowed to say it doesn't mean it won't happen. And if if there are behaviors that are indicative of violence, if we can identify those and address it before it escalates, then we can potentially we have a greater chance of preventing it, but at minimum we can mitigate the outcome of that. And we have a responsibility to the employees to do that. But it, I mean, it's just sad that it took up a heading for me to convince them of that.

SPEAKER_05 14:39

It absolutely is. It's bloody heartbreaking. And one of the most frustrating things I've probably run into myself over the course of the years with teaching what I teach, same thing. Everybody was like, you're just a little paranoid, it must be the military in you. And I'm like, no, this is based on my personal experience in life, and I grew up with violence in my home. So I kind of looked at the world through the lens of if it can happen here, it can happen anywhere. And then obviously the military added fuel to that fire in terms of being prepared and attention to detail and always scanning and being in tune with what's going on, particularly given some of the places that we ended up being deployed to. But what was your catalyst? Now I know that generally speaking, and you can slap me down for saying it, but I think that women tend to exist and live in a slightly different world than men. Men, generally speaking, do not fear for their safety in most cases and most situations. Whereas women tend to look at the world, in my opinion, through the lens of it's possible, it could, it might, and I should be aware of it. And so for most women, they are they tend to be more attentive, again, generally speaking, than men, but there's often a catalyst behind why someone, as I know there was for me, to want to be attentive, to want to uh I won't say try and predict, but anticipate maybe the potential for problems. Was there such a thing for you, or is this just something that was foundational to your your your DNA? You were like, I'm always gonna be attentive.

SPEAKER_04 16:11

Like you, um, I I grew up in a violent household. And um, and it wasn't just against me. Um, there was violence against my mom. Um she was we lived in rough areas all the time. My mom was actually attacked in the front yard um by a stranger, by two strangers um in broad daylight. And like I don't remember I don't remember seeing it, but my mom said we me and my older brother were both on the front porch when it happened, and she's screaming at us to get inside. So it's it's always there. Now, whether or not I I really paid attention to it, it was always there. Then I get older, um, I make really bad decisions. Um, I ended up in a domestic in a in a relationship that um where there was domestic violence. And so then it's okay, so now it's my job not just to protect me, but to protect my daughter. And then I have another daughter, and then it's the how do I protect them? And so there was always that I was always lecturing constantly. And so when my daughter, my oldest daughter, they're eight years apart, so my older daughter, she would have her friends over, and I was constantly, you know, don't do this and be careful with this and never accept an open drink from people. And this is this is way back in early 2000s, not maybe not early 2000s, but you know, 2005, 2006, and I'm just lecture, lecture, and my daughter's like, mom, stop lecturing my friends. And her friends are like, they're like this, really, really, and I'm like, you know, so it's good stuff, but when your mom's saying it, you're like, Oh, whatever, mom, we know. I get I tell people I get teaching. Like, yeah, I just can't teach my daughter. We know, mom.

SPEAKER_05 17:56

Interesting how that experience shapes then the lens through which we see the world. And also, there is an understanding for anyone that's been through something like that, that the impact of an incident or ongoing instances of violence has a lasting impact. It it can and does for the majority of people influence everything else that comes in life after that, right? They their whole perspective changes. And one of the reasons I was so passionate about teaching the type of personal safety that I was teaching is because I could I would look at people and I would say, look, I I'm uh the glasses half full, which is kind of amazing, really, given what I grew up with. But I'm I'm optimistic generally, generally speaking. But I would look at people and go, your world is gonna come crashing down around you if something happens. Especially something that in hindsight you're gonna know you could have avoided or seen coming, and then not being there when it when it transpired. And so I was passionate to try and get to people before something bad happened, so they never had to live with the consequences of the crime, of whatever may have happened to them. And it was, I just remember having a conversation with someone, and they and they jokingly said some friends of mine, and they they asked, What do you normally look for when you're out and about? And I started listing off things, everything from the people, the hands, other behavioral things, but second, third, fourth, fourth story windows, rooftops, and they're looking at me, going, Bruh, this is not downtown Beirut. What are you looking for? I don't like potential snipers or somebody, you know. And this was a little bit before we started seeing such a huge uptick in active shooters, before the, I think they were in Washington, the two guys that were hiding in the trunk of a car and shooting people, right? Like it was before that by just enough that people were looking at me like this guy's out to lunch. Like he's he must be walking around constantly in a state of paranoia. And I'm like, no, I just I scan. I scan and I look within with purpose and intent. But it was frustrating. I'm sure it must have been for you too, especially with your kids not listening to you, to to try to make an impression on the company that was asking you to provide security for them. And they're all like, Yeah, but we don't well not but not that secure, like not that security.

SPEAKER_04 20:30

And not that don't use that word, and and don't do this, and don't do that, and and he would just paint rainbows and unicorns on it, and and and then everybody would be saying, like, I've got we had bad entry access. So did the so it was Vaughn Foods is where the beheading happened. And so the the the case was so um impactful for me, and because the building was was very much like ours. You had to have a badge in and out, and the the guy, uh the perpetrator, he was he did a bunch of stuff he they shouldn't have done. He gets suspended. He goes home, so he wasn't even fired. They take his badge and they escort him out the door. He goes home, gets a knife, goes back and sits on the property. So a couple of things had changed. Um the the company had recently been sold, so they went from armed to in-house security. No, armed, unarmed, to me, it that part didn't matter as much as um your eight dollar an hour security guys who are like the uh flicking through their phone. So they're not they're you get what you pay for, you get what you pay for. Two, they're not part of the culture. So they are not they don't have ba we're gonna talk about baselines, but they they don't establish baselines. You're rotating guys in and out, they're in multiple facilities, they they uh they care about as much as their job is what they're getting paid to care for. But the guys who worked there before They knew everyone. They knew when something was wrong. They knew when somebody acted out outside of their baseline. And they didn't have that. So they the news security, they missed the guy sitting in the parking lot. But he knew because it was a 24-hour operation, he knew that at shift change, nobody else knew that he had been suspended. And that's a standard because HR protects employees. So you don't make this big announcement, hey, guess who got suspended? HR doesn't do that. They just quietly let have them out. There might have been some people that saw it. Maybe nobody saw it because they were working. Some of the management knew, but they don't make that announcement, and that is to protect employees. The problem was as people are leaving and coming through, he just tailgated right in. That became a huge problem for me because I had had people let homeless people into the building.

SPEAKER_03 22:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:53

I'm like, I'm sorry, this is the person you let in. Well, I thought he worked here. Does he look like he works? I mean, it I like we're pretty relaxed in how we dress, but yeah, but not that relaxed. And I'm like, so this stuff like this was like, I have to sit him down and go, okay, let's watch the video.

SPEAKER_03 23:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:13

Show me where in here you thought that his behavior demonstrated that he worked in the building. And and we had two floors in a 14-story building. And I'm like, you you didn't just endanger us, you endangered everyone in that whole building. Everyone. So we had to change how we uh we had to change our policy on our badges. So you get people who are too lazy, they don't want to carry their badge. They oh, I left it at my desk. So the only person that knows that you haven't been suspended is your manager. So then it became if you show up without your badge, the only way you're getting in that door is you call your manager and he lets you in. That was it. And they didn't like it. But then when I presented, this is what happened, and this is how one woman got beheaded, and one another woman almost got beheaded, and like this is this is what we're facing. And they were like, oh, okay. Now they didn't like it. They didn't like it at all, but they couldn't argue against what I had presented. And so finally we got a little we got a little better.

SPEAKER_02 24:13

It's crazy.

SPEAKER_05 24:14

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SPEAKER_04 25:00

So um, I'm always t talking about to baselines because you can't determine what is abnormal unless you just unless you first decide what is normal. So there's two baselines. You have a baseline for a situation and a baseline for an individual. As civilians, the baseline for the situation is going to be very is going to be easy for us. So your church, your grocery store, anything that you regularly go to in your community, the stores you frequent, um, bars, restaurants, you know how 51% of the people in there behave. But when someone acts outside of that, it grabs your attention. Now you may not be able to verbalize and or pinpoint, you just go, oh, that guy gives me the creeps. But what about his behavior gave you the creeps? There's something there. And when you learn to look, when you learn to articulate exactly what it is, then that that helps you in reporting. So um in large-scale events, I teach law enforcement that the 51% rule is is um absolutely important. Um how do 51% of people act when they go to a concert? Well, it depends on the concert, right? Because uh you go to a um Michael Buble, Michael Booblay concert is not the same behavior as five finger death punch. It's just it's not. You're not gonna say if you start seeing a mosh pit at a Michael Buble concert, I'm gonna say that's outside of the of the baseline. But then you have the baseline for the individual, and you may have somebody who is acting outside of the situational baseline, but it's within their personal baseline. I did a an event in Vegas once, and it was for extremely wealthy people on how to get wealthier. And we were doing security, and there were some very big, big names that were speaking. RFK was there, Tucker Carlson was there, um, and some other people, and but they're all entrepreneurs. So you're dealing with people, some of which are on a spectrum. And so for us to determine, and this is one of the craziest ones I ever worked, because for us to determine what 51% of the people in the room were doing was was very difficult because everyone was so incredibly different. Um, we just started calling them Beanie Guy One, Beanie Guy Two. I mean, it's like, who wears a beanie? It's Vegas, it's hot. Why do you have a beanie? So this, those are things you're like, well, 51% of the people weren't wearing beanies, but I probably had five beanie guys. So then we're we've got eyes on the beanie guys, and then we are working with people within the organization, going, okay, so is that person supposed to be here? And do you know? Oh yeah, nope, he's fine. And we're like, okay, and then we just move on, but it's being able to determine that information and get it really fast without for us at that point was without having to go make contact, right? These people are very wealthy and they've paid a lot of money to be there. They just want to feel comfortable and happy and not interrogated. So it's trying to work around that. In other large-scale events, you don't have that same, that same ability. And you may have to have um, so on again on the law enforcement side, but you've got under an undercover unit um that's finding people in crowds that may be instigators. Um, I worked APEC, which is the Asian Pacific, I don't remember what it stands for, but um our president was there, our vice president was there, um, heads of nations from from all over the world were there. It was a really big deal. They refer to it as an NSSE event. So it means the security is the highest ever. And I started out in the crowd with a bunch of pro-Palestine. I'm out there chanting along with them. Like, but what I'm doing is I'm I'm watching. What are 51% of the protesters doing? And most of them, it's just like they're screaming. Yeah, a few of them are climbing up on the lights and probably doing things that they shouldn't do. But what I'm looking for is I'm looking for instigators of violence that are that are there not necessarily with the group, but go in to try to stir stuff up. And then um I get pulled in inside because they're like, okay, so now we're kicking off, go put a suit on, get inside. And I'm standing there with a bunch of Secret Service guys. 48 hours before anybody comes into that building, the Secret Service has already cleared it. And we've got checkpoints in multiple areas um around the building for people to come through. And at one point I looked over at um the Secret Service guy next to me and I said, Are you looking at badges? Because I'm like, at this point, I I've I just saw something. And he said, Well, no, because they're checking badges at this bit at this point. Well, it turns out we had multiple buildings where events were going in, and not just because you could get into one event didn't mean you could walk into the our building, which is where the president was. But that meant they could leave through the back side of one building and walk around and come in the front side of our building without going through our checkpoint. So I'm watching, and the first thing I noticed is the behavior of the of and it was one guy to begin with, and he's looking around where everyone else is standing in line and they're having conversations, and um this guy, this guy's not talking to anyone. Um, he's looking around a lot, and um, but it's not what 51% of the other people are doing. So as soon as he gets in eyesight where I can see his badge, and the badges were probably like this, they were big.

unknown 30:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 30:38

I was like, that's there's something wrong with that badge. So I wait for him to come all the way through, and then I walked up to him and I said, I said, How are you, sir? I said, you know, are you are you excited about blah? You know, I'm just like very kind and whatever, because the last thing I want to do is if he is legitimate, I don't want um, I don't want to make him mad, right? I don't want him to report security because we're being a bunch of jerks. And I always tell people the approach is very important because I have the ability to impact his response to me. And if I walk up and go and grab his badge, okay, get off. Who the fuck are you? And why are you and this isn't real? And and it turns out it is. And that's it's on me, and I just created a threat, right? At least one to me. So I I walk him over to the uh to the main desk, and these are the ladies that are in charge of the badges. They printed them, they know what they're supposed to look like. And I said, You know what? I said, Do you mind if if I just take that badge for you for one second? And he was like, Oh, okay. So he handed it to me, and I um she was on she was on the phone talking to somebody, and then she put the phone down and I put the badge up and I said, I just have a question. And she picked it up, grabbed the phone, and I went, Oh shit. Because where there's one, there's two. And I and the Secret Service wasn't checking him. He had already told me he wasn't even looking at badges. So I ran back over there. There were 18 people, 18 Chinese nationalists we pulled out of that line with fake badges. And it all started with watching what 51% of the people, what their behavior was like in that line. And pup, we do it every day. If civilians do it all the time, law enforcement does it all the time. We just don't know how to articulate. We don't know that that's what we're doing. So when something's off, we get the hairs in the back of our necks stand up, we get that bad feeling in the pit of our stomach, but we're just like, oh, he's cra he's a crazy, he's crazy or he's weird, or it just had a bad feeling. But to be able to articulate and say, okay, so I was watching everybody in line, and people are talking to each other, they're smiling, they're happy to be there, and here's this one guy not talking to anyone, looking down and looking around. And he's looking at the mags, he's looking at how people are being searched, and so then I'm like, okay, so you have my attention. And that was when I saw that his batch did not quite match all the other badges.

SPEAKER_05 32:59

Yeah, one anomalous behavior had you hone in to look for another or other anomalous behaviors. We call that the rule of three.

SPEAKER_04 33:08

Have you heard that? Yeah. The rule of three. Three low-level risks. Um and then there's usually something going on.

SPEAKER_05 33:16

Yeah. Yeah, I usually refer to that just as a cluster of behaviors that don't think of clusters. Yes, exactly. So one of the things I have often pushed hard in my conferences is to trust the instincts because the instincts are picking up on layers of behavior that you can't even begin to consciously assess, not without practice and not without training. But to take the step from I had a funny feeling to I'm gonna do something about it, for many people is huge. They will extricate themselves, they'll create a little bit of distance, they might find another place in the room to go and stand. But will they report it? Will they take the next step, like an actual action in response to the behavior that set their instincts, you know, alarm bells off? And the answer is in most cases no. And it's because of their inability to articulate why they're creeped out. They don't want to trust something they don't understand at a you know a fundamental level of where it came from. Because it feels like, you know, some sort of black magic, where it's just literally that individual has set their hairs off, but they don't know why. And they're like, Well, I could be wrong, and I don't want to be wrong, and I don't want to humiliate them or me, right?

SPEAKER_04 34:32

Yes, I they have it's that well, I maybe I shouldn't get involved. Or um that what they'll do is they'll look around and they'll see, does this bother anyone else? And if no one else seems off, then they're like, we're back to monkey see, monkey do. We're like, well, it doesn't seem to be bothering anyone else. So so I'm maybe I'm just being paranoid. And I I will say, like, I teach that, I teach that, and I I have been in situations where I questioned where like I do this for a living, am I being paranoid? So it like we even as professionals, we will still second guess, we'll still second guess ourselves. And I I hate that. I hate that, and I I will tell you I there have been times where I'm like, am I being a girl? Am I being a girl about this? Um, and I I hate thinking that way because I train other people to not, but it's still within us to go, I don't want to wrongly accuse somebody. I don't want to be that person where it's like now all of a sudden I've lost credibility. Um, and that's I'm just feeding into something that there's nothing there. Um, one of the big ones that I've seen and in hindsight is people come forward and go, there was a case in uh the San Bernardino shooting where the neighbor came forward afterwards and goes, Well, yeah, I saw they got crates and just they were doing weird stuff in the garage all the time, and like but I wasn't gonna be racist. And so, so how do you combat that? I tell people, I'm like, ask yourself if they were any other ethnicity, would the behavior be just as odd? Because that's what you're reporting, is the behavior, not the ethnicity. You're not reporting because of the ethnicity, that's racial profiling. But if if you can say, okay, well, if they're white, would it still be odd behavior? Then absolutely report it. I also think that I also and this this may I may be wrong, but I also think that people who are racist aren't worried about being called racist.

SPEAKER_02 36:36

It's true. But I can't.

SPEAKER_04 36:39

Like if you say, Man, I don't want to be racist, well then you're probably not.

SPEAKER_05 36:44

Yeah. As soon as you ex you as soon as you uh uh display an outward remorse over something like that, there's a good chance you are not. But it is, it's difficult to get people to separate their fear of being interpreted as being biased in some way from their own instinctive responses to a particular behavior that sets them off or makes them feel unnerved. So let's say there were three things that you wanted to empower everybody who's listening with three behavioral clues that you think, okay, this is something I think everybody should be looking at wherever they go. And you I think you've already alluded to at least a couple of them, and that is individuals who are not interacting with the people around them scanning. What else would you add to that? And maybe can you give us three or four? Anomalous behaviors.

SPEAKER_04 37:41

I I I thought about this, and it really comes down to the situation because it what's normal for one situation may not be normal in another. So there are there are a few things that I I often tell people, um, so you know what it looks like to take a selfie, right? So so if I am if I'm gonna take a selfie, then I'm gonna hold the phone up and make the duck lips or whatever, if people still do that, and and they're gonna take a picture.

SPEAKER_06 38:09

That's right.

SPEAKER_04 38:10

You know, I don't know that that's cool anymore, but it used to be a thing.

SPEAKER_05 38:13

But if something else I think it's the sad lip. Have you seen the sad lip? And then I'll I'll let you go. It's duck lips are out, sad lip is in, and it's like a little moody lower lip.

SPEAKER_04 38:24

I'll have to try that with my next.

SPEAKER_05 38:27

Yeah, anyway. Sorry. But I saw that in the news thing the other day, and I'm like, what?

SPEAKER_04 38:33

I love how side sidebar we get.

SPEAKER_02 38:37

I know, right?

SPEAKER_04 38:38

So but it's it if you're gonna take a selfie, you're gonna hold it a certain way. If I'm gonna take a picture of something behind me, I'm gonna hold it different.

SPEAKER_03 38:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:48

So so consider what like if you're just walking in a in an area and it's well, that's weird, or somebody's taking pictures of buildings, and you're like, well, that's not a tourist attraction. Why is somebody taking a picture of that? One, if it's a government building, that is that's not even a low risk, that's a high risk um behavior. But um, but things that that I've seen are that holding holding the camera, but then holding it to where you can get what's behind you. And people have done that to take pictures of other people. Um, but they've done it too um in planning stages, to take pictures of buildings. Um I'll give you an a I'm trying to think of some other ones that I've seen. Um I I was at an airport once, and I'm of course I'm peep I'm a people watcher. I've always thought people exist for my entertainment. So it's better than anything I'm gonna find on my cell phone. So um I'm watching and I'm there with my other half, and he's working, and I'm just sitting at the gate watching people, and there's a guy sitting um directly not directly in front of me, but like over, like, but he's facing me. And he's reading a paper and he has a backpack next to him, and he takes the paper and he starts tucking it in around the backpack. And I was like, well, that's 51% of people here aren't doing that. So I'm watching. Now I'm watching everybody else because I'm like, is anyone else seeing what I'm seeing? No, everyone was on their cell phone. Everyone was on their cell phone. So I just keep watching him. And he stands up and he steps back and he looks and he's not happy with it, and he tucks the paper in some more, and then he gets up and starts to walk away. And while I grab, I grab my other half and he's like, we're moving. And he goes, For what? And I go, now we are going now. So one, I I want to know where he's going and how fast he wants to get away from that backpack.

unknown 40:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 40:41

So, but this for this situation, that that was high risk for me. Because you mean, how many times in an airport do you hear, you know, don't take bags from other people, don't let people hold your bags. Um, and don't, you know, if somebody walks away from something, you you know, you need to report it. So I'm not gonna, and now I'm not to the point where I'm gonna start screaming bomb, because that's that'll get you in trouble in a hurry. Um, but I I just wanted to see how fast he was trying to get away from that. And I didn't want to be near it if he didn't want to be near it, but I wasn't ready to make that announcement. And what he did was he just went to the gate agent and he talked to the gate agent with back, unpacked, uncovered his backpack. He was just hiding it. It was a backpack, take it with you. Just take it with you. So, um, so yeah, like, but my heart rate like jumped way up. And I it's I could have in hindsight, I could have said, sir, is that your bag? And shouldn't you take that with you? I I could have said that, but um, in the moment I was just, you know, reacting the the best to my ability. So it's always good to reassess. Yeah, maybe I should just told him. I I tell people all the time, if somebody says, Hey, would you watch my bags? I we all want to be polite, but honestly, just be like, I'm sorry, I was just leaving. I'm not I'm not gonna watch your bag. I know it's convenient, it sucks to have to take your stuff with you, but um it it's bad. I mean, one, as the person asking why you're trusting a stranger with your stuff. You just walked away, you know what that what they can do with your stuff. And then as the person who's sitting there, do you really want to be held responsible for whatever may or may not be in that bag? I mean, we're trusting that TSA has done their job, but a couple of years ago, I left Tulsa and flew to Miami. And when I got into and I had been, I've been at ILEDA, which is the International Law Enforcement Education Training Center in St. Louis, and I always drive. So I always keep my firearm. I've got to, um, and this is my my carry-on backpack. I really need to have two different backpacks. Um, it's black. I was digging through it, and when I got to the hotel, and I found uh my mag for my 26 fully charged. It went straight through, and I'll tell you why I had that moment where I thought I was gonna have a heart attack because I know what what that could cost me in a fine and a nasty letter and maybe the no-fly office.

SPEAKER_06 43:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 43:07

But I was like, man, I'm I'm glad they missed it. And then I'm like, no, I actually am not, because if they miss that, what else are they missing? And I thought about going to I thought about going to um the Tulsa Airport and letting them know, and then I thought, you know, we can just let it go. No, just let it go. But um you you really you are the one person that that you can trust. And that's you have to kind of go with with that and stop relying on everybody else to do it for you. So don't don't watch people's backs. Just don't. And it's not about being rude, it's it's about it's just safety. It's the same thing with holding open a door for somebody. Oh, yeah, sure. Come on in.

SPEAKER_05 43:49

I'm glad that you brought up airports, because I actually put this on LinkedIn because it it was entertaining as all get out. Nobody else noticed it, which made it probably even more entertaining. But I'm watching people up and near the gate for my next flight, and I noticed a single female scanning the faces of everybody sitting in and around the gate. Now that's you and I both know very anomalous, because most people are not attentive and they're certainly not scanning the faces of everybody. It felt to me, then this was merely my interpretation initially, that she was looking for someone, which I then attributed to somebody here is with her. But she never settled on a particular face until she got to a father who was there with his young son. And then he became her focal point. She watched him, she watched the kid, and she watched everybody else around. And then she'd come back to the father, then she'd watch the kid, and she'd watch everyone around. And I watched this pattern happen at least three or four times. The repetitive looking at the father, looking at the kid, looking around. And it occurred to me it seemed like she was waiting to see if Mom was going to show up. And after about ten minutes of this repetitive behavior, mother never did show up, she took two steps, albeit somewhat small steps, closer to the father and the son, and started engaging the son in conversation. The interesting part about this was not necessarily her engaging with the son, it was that her ventral alignment, midline of the trunk, was always on the father, and she closed the distance down between her and him to within about half an arm's reach. And I'm watching this play out, and I'm like, this is bloody fascinating. I still don't know why. I'm I'm watching it play out, and I'm I'm curious, I'm literally with my popcorn effectively at the airport, munching, going, where's this going? Like I wanted I want it to know. Right. I realized after a few minutes, she had aligned herself and spatially, like praxemically, she was close, close enough to him to give the impression of being with them. She went from being a stranger at the distances you would expect a stranger to stand and engage with a child to being aligned ventrally and literally with the father talking to the son. And every impression that you would have, if you had just been glancing around this lineup, you'd have thought those three are together. Like immediately you would have been, they're a team, right? That's a family for sure. No, she had on an ankle monitor under a sock, and it looked to me like she was doing her best to blend in and not be spotted. Now I have no idea.

SPEAKER_04 46:44

It's better to be it's better to be a family traveling than it is a single female, especially if someone was looking for her.

SPEAKER_05 46:51

Especially if someone's looking for her and she had an ankle monitor on. I could feel the sock.

SPEAKER_02 46:56

I have another one over the top. I might I was she's trying to blend in. Did you report it? No.

SPEAKER_05 47:10

Honestly, I looked around for staff. There was no one. And I knew that I'd already gone this been a long day, right? I looked down this corridor and I'm like, is there anyone that works in this airport other than me at the moment? And there was no one. And I said, Do I report it? And who do I report it to? She hasn't committed a crime right now, other than guilty behavior of trying to blend in. And I'm like, what are they going to tell her?

SPEAKER_04 47:34

Ankle monitor, you're not supposed to be traveling. That's why you have an ankle monitor on. So I think that probably would have been enough. And just say, hey, look, you know, maybe she's got permission from the courts. Um, but the ankle monitor is kind of a red flag for me. So the thing is, she's not with them. I I saw that she's not with them.

SPEAKER_05 47:52

So you know, look, the final score for me was just saying, is she dangerous to the passengers and the people in this plane?

SPEAKER_06 48:00

That way I hate to say it, but I was stood, I'm like, probably not. I know. I I criticize myself as well.

SPEAKER_04 48:11

Uh-huh. I've been there. There was, um, I was at a gate once and we're standing around, you know, and and they're like, oh well, and now it's delayed, or whatever. So you've got all these people that had gotten up to get in line to get on the plane, and now they're just, you know, milling around. And there's these two little girls that are kind of running in and out of all the people. And at first I like I couldn't see where their parents were. But what did catch my eye was one guy who could not take his eyes off either one of those girls. And that that to me was that was a huge red flag. And I've seen that more times, especially in airports, than I I care. Now, I would have reported him. However, once they made the announcement and other people came off of the plane, I lost sight of him. And I like it, there was just so many people that I could not keep eyes on him. So I was trying to keep eyes on the girls. And then I saw that they made a bait, they went back to their parents, and I was like, okay, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna let it go. But the one I did report was I got on a plane and I had been overseas, so I'm flying home. You know, it's like 40 some hours of um waiting in airports and flying and waiting in more airports, and I'm tired and uh I am I am not a polite flyer anymore. I used to be. I am I'm not. I'm just I'm the person who stands up first, and if you don't get out of my way, I am I'm just seething because I'm like, I I know you're not in a hurry, but I've already been on too many flights, and I am in a hurry, and I do want to get out the plane, and I don't want to wait for the last minute for you to get your bags and hold up the rest of the line because you didn't do it when the plane landed.

SPEAKER_01 49:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 49:53

So um I get on the plane and it's my last flight into Tulsa, and there's this I'm sitting next to the window, and so the guy on the on the aisle seat is really tall, he's probably in his 60s. Fit, very he's very fit, but he doesn't have his shoes on, which one grosses me out. I understand take it, no, like he was barefoot on a nap on like on a local flight. Like that's just put your shoes back on, please. So he gets up and and I get over and he's on his cell phone. Well, he also does not have really good vision because the font on his phone is really big. And so when I sit down, he's in a bubble, right? Like it for him, the only thing exists is this phone and his conversation. So the first thing I I do is look at his phone. I I'm horrible at that. I actually have a protective screen on my phone, so people can't do it to me.

SPEAKER_06 50:46

You can't read over your shoulder.

SPEAKER_04 50:48

I do it to other people all the time, and I'm just like, oh, what am I talking about? It just it's like people watching, um, and and people don't pay attention, so then I just do it. And um it said, it said there are a lot of hot young boys on this flight. And I was like, oh shit. And it wasn't, and there was, I mean, there was a lot of younger kids, and these kids are in that weird age where they could have been 15, they could have been 20, and they're super tall, but baby faced, and they were it's like a basketball team. So um so I'm like, oh, well, this is gonna be interesting. So I just I'm like this. And I'm like like, and he's so not paying attention, I mean, because the seats are close, and I'm just like this, reading his phone, and he says some more stuff, and then all of a sudden, um, there's a kid that gets on and he's a few seats up, and they they have like their basketball shorts on, which are kind of long, and uh he's gonna put his bag up, and so he leans forward and shoves the bag up and he switches his phone over to camera and zooms in on the kid's body.

SPEAKER_05 51:55

Oh, come on.

SPEAKER_04 51:56

And I was like, oh, and I go, You probably shouldn't do that. Yes, just like that. I was like, it came out before I even had time to think about it. I was just like, oh dude, you're lucky I didn't smap, take that phone and I was like, oh uh-uh, hell no, you're not doing that. And he um he immediately is like, oh, fumble in, fumble in, and switches over to a game and like starts playing. And I was like, oh fuck. Um, I just put myself in a really great position because I I don't want to be fighting somebody that's way bigger than I am when I'm on the inside. You know, I I got nowhere to go. So I know that the human behavior is that you're gonna go through a couple of phases and sometimes that's a little slower and sometimes a little faster. One, now he's embarrassed, but that embarrassment is going to switch to anger and it's gonna go into injustice. And he's um, it's like, how dare she? And who does she think she is? And I know that the wheels are turning and he's human and that's what's gonna happen. So I start texting a friend of mine um who's uh he works for the Marshall Service, and I said, Hey, this is what happened. What what are my options? He goes, Well, I don't know that over-the-close photos are illegal, even if he is a minor. And I said, I understand. And he goes, at this point, if you report it now, they're gonna they're gonna delay your flight and they're probably gonna deep lane everybody, and he could still end up getting back on it. And he goes, wait until you're in the air and then report it. And I was like, Okay, so well, we take off um without incident. He's um you can actually like I say like that the anger's palpable. So so you can actually start to feel when when he starts switching from he's just embarrassed to how are they her and who does she think she is. And so as soon as we get to cruising altitude, I said, I just smiled and I said, excuse me. I said, I I need to step out. And he's mad. And and he's not he's not hiding it. He gets up, he huffs. Um, I step to the back and I grab one of the um flight attendants and I um he I and I actually had my I had my badge with me and I said, Um, hey I I'm I'm law enforcement, but you know, this is this isn't my jurisdiction. I just want to make you aware of something. So he grabs me and takes me behind the curtain. I actually think he mistook me from uh an air marshal. Air marshals don't do that. They don't do that, they don't get involved, they're not gonna be like, oh, this is who I am. They their job is to hide and protect and to protect the pilots, and that's that's it. Um so that's why you don't see him get involved when there's fist fights on a plane. But um he was I I told him and he goes, What seat are you in? And I I said, he said, you know, I I don't know how old the kids was. Um I don't know if it's a minor, and I I don't know what your policy is. I said, but the red flag for me was he didn't say hot young men, he said boys. And that that to me was that was a big red flag. And he goes, Okay, and so he's looking and like he's like you would see his he's calculating, and he goes, Okay, he goes, There are two unaccompanied miners sitting in the seat directly in front of you. And I missed them sitting down because I was reading his messages that I did not know. And that became the bigger issue was that those two little kids that were sitting in the seat directly in front of us. And I said, Well, I I don't know that he knows we're there, where they it doesn't matter. And he said, Would you like to switch seats? And I was like, Oh, yes, absolutely. But now I have to go back up and get my stuff, which is under the seat, so now I'm like interrupting him again and he's still seething. And um, I went to the back of the plane. Um, another female agent came back and she said or um flight attendant came back and she was like, Thank you. And I was like, I it don't really didn't really do anything. But I made it clear, I was like, I'm not getting involved. I'm I'm not trying to like pull my phone out and say, you know, out this guy is a creep. I I'm not that kind of person. I want they have a job to do, they have a policy, it should be theirs to deal with. And um so she went up and got the two kids and set them in the seat next to me in the back of the plane, and it was uneventful, and he got off and um then there was nothing that was done to him, but but that one that one I felt I I I just couldn't let that one go. That was too I mean it's like I really wanted to smack the phone out of his hand. He did not take the picture though, and I scared the shit out of him. I he jumped and he almost dropped his phone, but I wasn't gonna let that one go.

SPEAKER_06 56:36

That's the kind of person you want to slap around the face with a chair.

SPEAKER_03 56:39

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 56:40

At least. And it's funny because we I get couples show up to events, and invariably, if a couple shows up to learn how to be more attentive, situationally aware, decode body language, the woman is really there to learn. And the guy is there to support her learning. He doesn't necessarily fill the need. So one of the things I try to stress to people is that your attentiveness, if it if for no other reason than you know, beyond self-preservation, your personal uh attentiveness to the environment could well save somebody else. Go into the environment going, okay, sure, uh you know no one will ever target you, sir. You know, it'll never happen to you, but maybe you'll stop it happening to somebody else. And so it I have to sometimes navigate the waters of getting males to be more attentive under the guise of help protect somebody else. You may not feel like you're at risk, even though physical attacks on men are more likely to be perpetrated by multiple assailants. Quick lesson. And if it happens, you're going to be so overwhelmed the minute it happens, you're getting your ass kicked six ways from Sunday, and you won't you'll be like, I don't even know where this came from. Put that aside. Learn attentiveness, learn to baseline behavior for the environment and for people in the way that you said. Maybe it's not for you, but maybe you can put yourself in the shoes of someone that may not be able to protect themselves, and you are in a position to intervene on their behalf should the worst happen.

SPEAKER_04 58:06

And and you're you're not always alone, right? I mean, as as a as a man, you're like, oh well, I've got this and I'm not worried about it, and I'm less likely to be a target. And and in when it comes to men and women, they're true. A guy alone is less likely to be a target than a woman alone, because um people see women as as weaker and she's not gonna fight back, and it's just it's just easier. But um young kids, the elderly. So what happens when as a man you are responsible for these other people? You've got like small children, um, a wife, um, maybe an elder uh grandparent with you, and the paying attention to your surroundings, what that does is it is it allows you to prevent or to mitigate the impact. So what if that impact is just you just go, okay, well, uh we shouldn't be here. And because I'm with my family, that's my best course of action is to remove us from the situation so I don't have to do it. But then are you gonna report it? Because the life you say could be the one it could be the best of a loved one. It is most certainly going to be someone's loved one. And when you say it that way, they're like, Oh, but yeah, you're right. I mean, I I mean everyone's loved by somebody. So you're protecting you're protecting someone, and and within our communities, it is our job. Security is everyone's job. And to say, well, and I'll just call the cops, and well, okay, well, they're gonna get there. But what's gonna happen in between the time that that violence begins and law enforcement shows up? Because most of the time it's over by the time the cops get there.

SPEAKER_02 59:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 59:47

So you you have that ability. So I always say it empowerment. I am like, I am empowering communities and individuals to make a difference within their community. And they have I mean, they have that ability, and to be told, I mean, everybody's in a crew true true crime right now, right? Ooh, crude crime. I just said that wrong. True crime. I swear, this is all I'm drinking.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:14

It's just water, I promise.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:16

Yes, it's way too early. I mean, unless unless memos is and then then then that's okay. So anyway, true crime is a big thing right now, and everybody's into it. Well, that's after the fact. What happens when you realize that you have the ability to stop something from ever becoming um uh true crime? Uh and I also tell people you can do everything right and the outcome could still be bad. And that and there's no there's like no rhyme or reason how that how that works. But I guarantee you, if you do nothing, the outcome is not gonna be that great. At least I I mean I when I went overseas and worked for um for the State Department, I was not allowed to carry a firearm. Um which just means I honestly need to be brushing up on my training some work because I I learned to do I had to rely on other things. Um I'm I had I had uh sharp objects with me at all times. Um but you know that that's only gonna get you so far. I'm not gonna win against an IED. I'm not gonna win against an AK. But um But I wanted people to know if something happens to me overseas, I went out fighting. And it didn't didn't matter that that it that I lost. I certainly didn't lay down and text my goodbyes and get my phone out and start recording stuff. Like I I went out fighting. If I had that phone in my hand, I was beating somebody with it. I tell people that that the mentality that you have to adapt is um and I the best example I have of this is the King Kong movie, um, where he takes the baby Kong and beats another Kong with him. I don't know if you've seen that or not.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:58

I have not.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:59

It is it is one of the best scenes ever, and I kid you not, like I I was drinking water and I did a spit take when I saw it. I was like, God, that right there is what I'm talking about. So you have to have the mentality that you are willing to beat a motherfucker with another motherfucker. Like if that's all you have, if that's all you have, everything around you is a potential weapon, everything. And to say, well, I didn't have my gun, well, you may not have it. I mean, there's uh we're constitutional carry, but there's places that say you can't you can't carry in there. Um, employers will say you can't carry on our premises. The state says you can keep your firearm in your car. Your employer says if we find out it's in your car, we'll fire you. And they have the right to do that. But there may come a time when that's you can't rely on that. You can't draw fast enough. You can't, you're not in a situation where you have a clear shot. Then what are you gonna do? But survival and to have the mindset that I am willing to do whatever it takes, whatever it takes. And so when you decide, you go all in. There is no, well, uh, I'm not quite sure. I'm not like go all in. And now you gotta watch that movie because I'm telling you that that clip is.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:15

I'll look it up.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:16

But one of the things I think it goes hand in hand with being situationally aware, environmentally aware, and people aware is also your assessment of your environment from the standpoint of performing a resource assessment in every environment you go into. Very often, if I'm teaching a class, I'll ask people, you know, close your eyes for a minute, tell me how many exits there are out of the room, and you know, half the class will get it right. Tell me how many cameras there are in this room, nobody ever gets it. And then I'll go through a number of these different questions, and then I'll say, what was on the backseat of the car next to you? And nobody answers that question, because nobody ever looks. Then we'll get to the point where I'm like, what is around you right now that would be useful in an emergency? And it could be anything from a fire and smoke to an attack. And people haven't thought that way too. I'm like, have you picked a chair that puts you in the best chance of escape, bearing in mind that if there are only two entrances in and out of this room on opposite sides of the room, how are you going to react if somebody comes in here through that door, eight feet from you and starts shooting? They haven't considered that either. And I think that there are so many layers that it begins with, am I paying attention at all in the first place? And then concentric rings of consideration working all the way through a multitude of different things, but through all everything from environmental awareness, situational awareness, and then resource assessments for the tools you could use that you might not have considered that object in that way under any other circumstances, other than an emergency use. And it's sort of that that totality of attitude helps guide and improve the chances of your survival and the people that are with you if something bad happens. It's it's a ways and means to increase your survival chances if the crap hits the fan.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:16

Oh, 100%. I I tell people to play the the what-win game. So in law enforcement, we refer to it as the what-if game. But I tell people we don't say if we say when. So it is now the what-win game. When this happens, I will do.

unknown 1:05:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:31

And then and then you have to you have to modify that. When this happens and I'm with my family, when this happens and I'm alone, when this happens and I'm armed or I'm unarmed. Um, and just and y I ask people to play it 30 seconds every day or every time you change locations. But eventually you train your brain that you're playing it for three seconds 30 times a day. And it's constantly where's my exits? And and assessing people in the room too. Who here's carrying? Because'Cause a lot of times you you can see at the imprint, you can see um who's carrying I I can spot a cop uh an or a former law enforcement. I'll tell you, like I I uh worked with the flying armed uh federal it was a federal program flying armed and I told the guys like a do you realize that the shoes you all wear and you all wear the same shoes I won't say it out loud but they all wear the same shoes I'm like that right there is a telltale sign that you're you're flying armed and they're like what I if I can see it other people will see it like don't wear cargo pants um but but if I walk into a room I I'm like who are my assets and then if somebody's gonna be a threat and then um who is who's likely to be that person that's gonna be a problem or what door that is the problem gonna come through and then where does that put me um and where can I go from here? Because if the entrance that I came through is where he comes through, that's not where I'm gonna be able to leave from. So then what do I do? Um and who do I think is going to be um an asset to to ending the threat? But I I always like I used to say that when I would go overseas, I'm like, I don't have a gun, but I make friends with all the people that do. I was all like hey guys, oh let me buy you a beer. Like like like hey let's go to dinner. Like I yeah just food because law enforcement and military worldwide, it's food. They all appreciate food. So just feed them get them on air so it's just oh free food. Free food. So yeah always make friends with the guys the guys with guns and um and then just know just know who they are. Now just because you identify as somebody as well he looks like a law enforcement um Timothy McVay was former military and he kept his military haircut and he was definitely not an asset. So again his behavior was different than what most law enforcement I mean you know law enforcement because they're always going to sit where they can see they want their back to the wall.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:00

That's a good indicator.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:04

Yeah just like you said just pay attention to who's around you and then if somebody comes over and sits next to you and or sits near you and it you're like this doesn't feel right or his behavior is off compared to everyone else's behavior then just remove yourself. Now when going back to well people who don't want to get involved or they don't want to report it, there are times that I I will tell um civilians I understand if you don't want to get involved and really it comes down to who they are and I'm not going to push somebody to go do something that they're never going to do. Sometimes you you just understand I'm not gonna change that. But if you don't report it and something happens then that is on you and that you that is something you will have to live with. So maybe you survived because you left but who didn't survive because you failed to report it well I don't want to see that person jumping on TV going, oh well I knew something was going to happen. Do you not understand what that makes you look like right like you're getting your 15 minutes of fame and yay you knew but you didn't do anything to to help prevent it. You look at incidents like um Tex we're not Texas Tech, uh Virginia Tech and all of the things that were pointed out after that attack people saw him measuring the push bars on the doors and he was measuring it because he chained the doors he needed to know how long that um how long that was there was a he went to the gun range and he bought uh he bought targets and he laid them out on the ground and stood over them execution style and shot them. The gun own the range owner watched him do it and he thought well that 51% of the people here don't do that. That's really weird. But he didn't report it until after and he could have yeah he could have so so when people say well there's violence doesn't just occur there are indicators that lead up to that and when I went into law enforcement everything was response uh response to actitud or response to domestic violence response response response and I'm like why don't we teach law enforcement the those pre-incident indicators and those behavioral cues and well that comes later and then and then it's like well law enforcement just learns it they go through enough bad stuff that they learn it. Well that's true but why wouldn't we teach that in basic academy? The difference between hey look I can intervene in a plot a huge plot um six months a year out because I worked with the community because that is you are a force multiplier right there because the community's gonna see things that you won't see because they're not in uniform and bad actors are relying on this on the public to be like seeing like monkey like I I see nothing I hear nothing I'm not gonna say anything and that's what they're relying on. So they'll hide their behavior from security they'll hide their behavior from law enforcement anybody in uniform they will not hide their behavior from the public because they are they are betting on those people just I'm not getting involved I'm not racist I and and you then you have people who don't trust law enforcement and that's a real problem too. So that's why I push I push community engagement with everything that I teach law enforcement because I'm like if they don't trust you they won't report they're not gonna talk to you. You can't just go see something say something which we seem to think is the magic it's not what see what see what how report what how do I report it what am I at what point is it worth reporting um I called once and I got blown off and so I'm not gonna do it again because clearly I don't know what I'm talking about or they're not gonna take me seriously anyway. All of those things there was this incredible case in um the I have tried really hard to find the the interview that I watched initially and have not been able to find it anywhere again but this girl was standing at her her sink washing dishes and she lived next to a um one of those storage units and as she's standing there this kid in a hoodie walks through her backyard and she was kind of on the corner. So she thought well that's weird because as long as I've lived here nobody cuts through my yard they always walk around my house and go and go to the storage unit. That's one and he goes and he approaches the thing and he takes too long to open the door so now she thinks maybe he's breaking into it that that could be that could be a problem. So he he he eventually gets it open he raises it and he steps inside and shuts himself in that's three and he says this is this is really weird she calls her cousin she says hey look this just happened her cousin's like you're so nosy and stay out of people's business and like what seriously what do you really think this is a thing and she she goes I I do I do and it's bothering me but she could articulate every single thing that he did that was not normal as long as I've lived here 51% of the people that come over they don't do those things. So her cousin said well if it bothers you call the cops so she called him she articulated all three of those things and the cops took her seriously they drove straight over there opened it and inside there was bomb making material ammunition tons of stuff and it was a case and you guys can look it up as John Ledue it would have been at the time the largest school shooting since Columbine and he worshipped the shooters of Columbine. He was going to kill his family he had it he had the manifesto and everything he was going to kill his family for the whole year before he had been out in parks setting out pipe bombs learning how to build them. So we had pressure cooker bombs he was gonna store in the trash cans at school he was going to go out to a field set a huge fire where all the first responders went to that fire he was going to go detonate the bombs and just start shooting people after he killed his family killing his family which has been first and he didn't even not like his family the kid had serious mental health issues. He just wanted his the body count to be really high. That girl didn't just save all those kids at that school she saved him and it was because she could articulate exactly what because the law enforcement didn't go oh some nosy neighbor it's just they took her seriously so there had to have been both of those things had to happen at the same time had they waited and he left it could have happened and law enforcement took her seriously because of the articulation.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:36

Yes yeah because it's very different to hear somebody say I saw something suspicious and when they say well what was it you go well it just I don't know maybe feel funny very different than okay this behavior this pumpkin and it with his hoodie up he was on my grass yeah he was in my yard yeah so no and it was very different. She's like no but people don't do that people don't do that and I think sometimes that maybe he broke into it but nobody ever shuts themselves inside of a storage container a storage container no that they they get she's like hey people move stuff out they move stuff in um but they don't shut themselves in cluster signals absolutely it was it's an incredible case so I know that one of the questions I get quite often after teaching is how do you maintain awareness without falling foul of paranoia? And you're questions. Go.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:35

So so and I heard this is not my this is not my analogy um somebody actually gave me this but um I call it being the zebra so zebras know when the lion is hungry he's coming right not if because that lion's gonna be hungry but it does not stop the zebra from going out with the zebra herd doing zebra stuff grazing going to the watering hole but the zebra has to pay attention and the zebra has to have a plan. Now zebra plans are pretty simple it's like I don't have to be the fastest zebra I just can't be the slowest but but you know and he pays attention right so like he tries to stay downwind. So and of course the lions try to attack from different ways they try to overcome that just like bad guys they will figure out what our defenses are and they try to beat those but they always pay attention it doesn't stop the zebra. The zebra doesn't go well and I'm just gonna stay at home and now I have anxiety and I can't go anywhere because when it happens, well if it's gonna happen I'm never gonna leave my house well it doesn't mean it won't happen at your house. And I have like a couple years ago I had somebody try to walk in my front door and thank God it was locked. But um like it it's just it's crazy that there is no real a hundred percent place where you're gonna be safe. So I love um Cooper's color code. I absolutely love that and I love um I I went all in um in in my book especially but I went all in and trying to understand how we developed it and um what it was really meant because it's really simplified and you're like oh well people spend too much time in white and you should always be in yellow and then then there's orange and and then there's red and then there's black. But what Cooper really intended was an ability to move from one level to another very quickly. It is okay to be in white but how fast are you going to recognize that you need to be out of white and into yellow and then from yellow once you determine oh there's a potential threat I'm gonna switch to orange well orange is good but orange can be bad because what happens when we think we see something that's a problem tunnel vision. So now all of a sudden we go from I'm paying attention everything to um I'm gonna watch that. Well that may or may not in orange that may or may not be a threat. You may have misidentified something and where there's one there can be two so then I I love the um example of Jurassic Park where the um those dinosaurs that attacked impacts so where you thought you identified one and you're focused on one the second one comes in and eats you so so orange you just have to make sure okay so there is a potential threat let me back up and see what else I have. So just stay out of tunnel vision. Once you determine that when you're an orange you're like okay that's not really a threat go back to yellow. And then if it is really a threat then you skip you then you go to red. What you're trying to avoid is having to go from white which is not aware to red which usually means you're going straight to black which is a complete shutdown. Where white is a it's a willful unawareness and and it's okay. Like I I and I'm probably the only person that said that. But it is okay to be white because we cannot spend our whole lives um a hundred percent on guard but when we just would wear ourselves down and you want to examples look at guys that have spent time in combat zones and you can't ever leave you're like conditioned red like 90% of the time you you can't even in your sleep you're still you're still there um my grandpa fought in World War II and my grand they came out and my grand they got he got married and my grandma didn't know she wasn't supposed to touch him to wake him up and she ended up with a black eye because it again you're sleeping in condition red but um black is a unwillful unawareness it is you're in a situation where your body just shuts down and all of a sudden your mind doesn't believe what it is you're seeing and you cannot react. So the goal is to stay out of black and not ever have to jump from straight from white to red oh oh shit now I have to act it is it's a continuum and it's okay to go here and back and back again. If I'm in a big crowd I'm I'm in yellow like that there's just for me there's there's no other place to be I'm always watching but when I'm at home um I I tend to stay I tend to stay in white and I had was in a hotel room once at a somebody broke it so it's like things that I learned I can't always be in white even when I'm sleeping things the things I put this in my book but things that I also learned was don't sleep naked. And uh yeah um now I have like the the little wedge alarm which is really awesome. Um I actually heard them come through the door and it it wasn't it wasn't it wasn't bad. It was bad but it was a it was a police conference which is the really funny part and security broke into my room because they had double booked it and at two in the morning when the other family came in and God bless them they had two little kids with them um they tried to come in and the chain was locked on the inside. So security thought that well the chain probably just accidentally got locked so let's break in at two o'clock in the morning at a police conference. I was like thank God I was not armed. I will tell you I was so glad I was not armed. And the cussing and the screaming that came out of my mouth because my goal was to sound a lot bigger and scarier than I actually was while I found some freaking pants. Yeah um that was like that was my whole goal so those poor kids were exposed to enough but I I told the hotel I said this kind of policy is going to get somebody killed and they were like oh well if you don't feel comfortable in that room you can change. I'm like I don't feel comfortable in your hotel but thanks for listening to me and taking me seriously that that was it was absolutely ridiculous. And I don't still don't buy the well sometimes the chains just lock themselves. No bullshit and then I don't want to stay there if you've got ghosts locking doors I don't want to stay there either.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:01

Yeah accidental chain locking in a hotel I don't think so so going back to Jeff Cooper's color code because a lot of people would not have heard of it is a effectively a state of awareness white being completely and utterly tuned out whether it's a decision consciously or subconsciously and I reserve that for when I'm at home andor in a location that I have a right to be where I can secure the perimeter. If I can secure the perimeter I'll go down to white but that invariably for me it means only at home. If I leave the house I'm in yellow I used to one of the things I would target my things is live life in the yellow you always want to be in a state of awareness the moment you leave your home or a secure area that you can secure and you are uh accessible by the public right that's yellow and then the awareness goes through orange and red and black and red uh you know orange and red sort of transitioning between I've seen a potential threat that could really be a threat very very quickly and so now I'm in red and response etc but what I ran into over the years was a number of people who said well the color code doesn't resonate with me for whatever reason they struggled with adopting a color code system that would allow them to be aware and one of the ways I I wanted to try and combat their their ever growing sense of paranoia if they weren't in the yellow was to give them another visual that they could use so that they had two options they could do color codes of awareness and if that worked for them fantastic but if they were unable to kind of visualize what that meant to them I would use the old thermostat analogy where do you remember those thermostats they had the beveled edge you would you would you could you know turn it up turn it down you could you could feel the bevels right and it would go up and you go down I would say uh visualize that visualize yourself okay I'm leaving the house I'm gonna go up to 70 degrees why 70 degrees because now I'm tuned in I'm aware of my surroundings I'm smelling the air I'm aware of the people I'm in tune with which way the wind's going but I've dialed my awareness up and then when I got home again I could go down to 62 which is the perfect comfortable temperature for everybody's home where it should be because at 62 62's optimal sleeping temperature and then I'm going to a public event okay I'm gonna dial myself up to about 76. I'm gonna be more aware than usual I'm gonna be 78 when I leave a building and I'm heading to my car and a parking lot because I don't know who belongs in that parking lot who shouldn't be in the parking lot at a gas station I'm at 84 I'm dialing that thing way up. Why? Because again it's a transient area we don't know who belongs and who doesn't so you should be particularly aware but the the reason for giving people this type of visual exercise of dialing a thermostat up for awareness and dialing it down because it I found that people could then give themselves the the off kind of dialing down okay my awareness can reduce now I'm in the car the engine's running the doors are locked I'm about to go somewhere if the worst case happens is someone tries to get in the car, I gun the gas. I'm out of here. I don't even have to try and get my gun out. I'm just driving away so you could dial down in that instance maybe down to 65 degrees I'd never go down to 62 in a public place. But at home I'll go down to 62. And I found that those two approaches both the color code system that you love and the dial thermostat up dialothermostat down allowed people visual exercises and then a visual measure of where they should be at any given environment at any given time so that the paranoia never never becomes a factor or shouldn't become a factor because you can let yourself off and you said it's okay to go to the white I am completely opposed to that ex outside of the home.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:06

I don't think you should ever be in white you leave the home you're in yellow no I I do I I do that um but if I'm in somebody else's home and I I trust where I am um I have actually been in white if I go to dinner and I'm with somebody who's carrying or somebody that I know has my back. And so then I'm like they're they're already like they're already in red and I like I know some guys that are that are just that way and so I'm like they go what where do you want to sit and I go I I'm fine with my back because I know you've got it. So it may not be that that I'm I may be switching between like there may be times where I kind of relax a little more in public depending on who I'm with um and then but I'm still I I'll still people watch but I'm it's to me it's I'm a little more in in a more comfortable area than um like my new firearms instructor is uh he's like he he's amazing and I I don't get to be around him that often but he and I have worked a couple of jobs together and and I will say like if if I if I am with him oh I I could be a white I could be a white because I'm like dude I'm like he doesn't like he's the guy that's like we'll have a plan to kill everyone in the room he would he would he could do it. Like I I own percent like he's the special ops guy that has all of those skills and he hasn't he's only been out of the military for a really short amount of time. So I'm like no he's got it. So I I think that I kind of balance that but then I also I struggle with not going down dark pathways because of what I do. So it's not necessarily paranoia but sometimes it becomes so overwhelming. Like I've got case studies I I decided that I wanted To dissect the FBI's active shooter report, the first one that they ever did, that was between 2000 and 2013. And I wanted to look at every single case. And I wanted to see what kind of job the shooter had, um, what kind of a place of employment, were they actually an employee? And do things like I was looking at job satisfaction as well, because there's a part of me that, because I worked corporate for 24 years, that I think that um we do ourselves a huge disservice, um, starting with my grandparents' era, which were generation where they said, don't work smarter, work harder, or don't work harder, work smarter. And they took away all this stuff and they were like, so everyone goes to school for four years, but then go sit in a cubicle and hate their life. And I think there's something very unnatural about that. So what I wanted to do was to dissect all this out. Well, what that did was after about 75 cases, I was like, I can't do I can't do this. Like, I can't do this. I mean, it started to really impact how I felt. And then I started, you know, you start seeing, and I think law enforcement does goes to this too, where you start to see like everyone is bad. Like every everyone's bad. Like you start looking at everybody, and then then I'm like, that's my bias. And now am I judging people because of their behavior or am I judging them because this is what I am looking at every single day, and and it's starting to impact, and it's starting to impact me. So I give myself more permission to be in white um and to be a little more trusting, but be ready to move. Um, be be ready to move, acknowledge this is where I am, willful unawareness and what is going on around me so that can I identify it fast enough. And if not, then I shouldn't be in white. I need to be, I need to be in yellow. But um, I think that's kind of why I've moved to to giving myself permission to be in white a little more often. Otherwise, I'm doomed glue. And it's like it's not even the glass is half empty, it's like there's no glass, the broken.

SPEAKER_05 1:30:08

You have license to make that conscious decision based on the understanding and lessons that you have learned from both experience as well as classroom, so that you can scan in a way other people, for the most part, never do. So even if you, let's just say, for instance, you are with your SF friend, he can kill everybody in the room faster than you could deal with the first threat, he's that good. Part of the reason you relax is yes, he can do all that, perhaps, but more so that you are utilizing your subconscious, your lessons, your experience to still assess in a way that allows you to make a conscious decision to dial it down. I have a very, very hard time believing that you are ever going to be in the white. I think you might consciously go, I'm chilling, I am chilling, but your subconscious is still going at everything that's going on around you. I I just I think that you are because of the things you know, I meant to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:20

Can you just let me stay there and pretend just for just a minute? No, I agree with you 100%, but I I will I will like to say that uh no no, I'm I I'm relaxed. I'm relaxed.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:34

And I bet no, I bet you are, and people are often surprised that I can't say. I was about to say, people are often surprised at how relaxed I am. Most people would tell you I don't look relaxed. Internally, I feel relaxed. I'm like, no, I'm chilling, I'm having a good time, but the reality is I do tend to be a little bit more tuned and a little bit more active in my scanning than other people. That was never more so. I'll share this, and then I've got one more question for you, and we'll we'll wrap it up. I went to a a Bon Jovi concert with my my new wife, and she has been telling me for years, you need to chill the hell out, because everywhere you go, you look like you're about to kill someone. And I we're at this Bon Jovi concert, don't judge me. And the band's playing, stuff's going on, it's all great. And I am standing in what probably anyone else will tell you look like security mode. Just I'm scanning. And I, my wife's like, you need to chill out, stop looking like that. You know, your face is just is a is a miserable show. There was a fight breakout a few rows in front of us, and a couple of guys are going at it. And a the girlfriend for one of these guys starts climbing over the stadium seats coming up towards me. And when she gets in front of me, she says, You need to help. My boyfriend is in a fight. And I looked at her like she'd gone out to lunch, because I'm like, Why are you talking to me? I'm like, why don't you go to security? And she said, I thought you were security. And I said, You went past two people in orange vests that literally say security to get to me. And she looked at me confused as the realization that the way I was standing, scanning, and looking, which now in hindsight, I'm like, I should never have made myself so such an obvious target with my with my non-verbals. I realized my wife is absolutely right. I need to be much more relaxed. If people are looking at me and going, that dude's on, he's on duty, he's on duty or he's somebody's bodyguard. I'm I'm doing a bad job of of hiding my own non-verbals. But I realized that I could scan just as well with a relaxed face and a smiley face, and just an easy-going persona, as well as I could standing there like a statue, basically staring down, everyone looking for the potential threat. And so even if somebody were to say to me, Oh, you look so relaxed, I'd be like, Thank you very much. That's a beautiful compliment. But the reality is, still on, still scanning, still aware, but in the back of my mind, I know that I don't necessarily have to apply 100% of my cognitive or conscious brain to the scan, my subconscious, knowing what it needs to look for, is doing it for me. And once you reach enough practice, it's my belief that if you do as you said, which is that 30 seconds in every environment, the what when, not the what if, you eventually train your subconscious to do it for you so that your conscious mind can be a little bit detached or a little bit removed from the thought processes that often go into becoming good at scanning. Would you agree? Would you 100%?

SPEAKER_04 1:34:55

No, 100%. And and I like I I know what I said about I give myself permission to be in white, but the truth is is there is no turning it off. I I recently went to Disney World with um with family and grandkids, and uh I was not there was no turning it off. No, I'm like 100%, and like I know I know the kind of people that go to Disney. Um, and this is it's it's an awful thing to say, but I will say child predators are huge. So um and part of what allows that is your the the Disney adults that have become so popular. Um it is very easy for them to hide in that group and go, well, we're just Disney adults. But but I'm like, I go and I'm like that's one, that's one. And it and it really comes down to what are they watching? And Disney adults don't watch other kids. Disney adults are actually annoyed by all the kids at Disney.

SPEAKER_05 1:35:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:53

These are people that go there because they're kids. And um, I I was actually pointing it out to my daughter and my mom, and she's like, Ma, stop. Just stop. You keep keep your thoughts to yourself. Like we're enjoying it, we're having a good time. Whereas my son-in-law is he's a former Marine and a firefighter. So then so now I just don't tell her. I'm just like, hey, like that person is like that's this is like and like we need to like put more space between them and us. And um yeah, yeah, it's you you really don't turn it off at all. You can downplay it, yes, and and denial. It's it's not just a river in Egypt, right?

unknown 1:36:35

No.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:36

But just let me have it sometimes. Just let me have it. Um yeah, it's it really is always on, and it's because what happens if I if I turn it off? You're already worried that like, what if I miss something?

SPEAKER_03 1:36:50

Correct.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:51

Um so it's it it is never a it it's not a turn it off. But I I like the zebra analogy for civilians because it gives them permission to go out and do stuff, even though they can acknowledge there is a threat out there and it the threat very well could attack me or attack on my loved ones, but it's not gonna stop me from going and doing what what I want to do. I'm just gonna pay attention. And then I'm going to have a plan that works for me. Because like I I love these these guys that come out of the military and law enforcement, and they don't have their interaction with civilians is not the same. And they're like, no, we if you're not Rambo, you're gonna die. And I'm like, comedy. And not not everyone's like that, but but I I've seen quite a few in the industry that that are. And I had a a guy tell me, um, I was teaching at a hospital, and the head of surgery told me, he goes, Well, what do you think about me carrying? And I said, Well, how often do you train? And what where are you in getting involved? And at what point do you decide to get involved? And do you understand all the possible outcomes of getting involved? And um he was like, Well, yeah, I thought about it and say, 'cause you know there are cases where the once uh, you know, hero put down the shooter and then the hero got shot, and then it meant for like five minutes the cop thinks he's the hero until he realizes he shot a civilian who had already saved the day. You know that that can happen. I mean, I I I have in my book I break down 12 cases, six where the outcome was possible, was positive, six where it wasn't. Um, and I know I say wasn't the the um the person who got involved ended up dying. Um, in almost all the cases, they had a positive impact. And I told him, I said, I will we there are not enough people willing to run towards danger. There's just not. And it and it's not no one should be shamed into it. You it is either in you or it's not. And just because you're not a first responder doesn't mean that you are not somebody who's driven to to save others. I would never tell someone, don't do it. And he goes, Well, the last instructor said, Well, you're probably gonna die. And I go, and that is an entirely true statement. You may, you may, but I'm not gonna tell I will tell you, go train, train as much as you can, train in different scenarios, do reality-based training, scenario-based training. I go, but I'm not gonna tell you not to get involved. I I'm just not, and I know I there's a lot of law enforcement that fisses them off when I say that, but but I just like, but what, but how long is it gonna take you to get there? How long is it gonna take you to get there? And if you get there, like the the um school resource officer and was it in Parkland, that wouldn't even go in the building. So just because you're trained and you're the first responder doesn't mean that that's how you're gonna respond either. So I'm I applaud anybody who puts in the time and effort and training to respond in a in a way that does not harm any any is innocence, and that can read a situation, right? Because when you're looking at two people, and what happens if you just watched a innocent civilian shoot the shooter, but you didn't see the shooter with the gun, and now you just shoot and you do the same thing a c I do. So I I just want them to understand all the possible, and that's something you have to live with. So understand everything that can happen.

SPEAKER_06 1:40:18

So I highly recommend that for those who would are interested in learning more.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:23

They get your book, Surviving Violence, How to Prepare for, Prevent, and Respond to Violent Threats. Where can they find the book?

SPEAKER_04 1:40:31

It's on Amazon. And it is uh digital, and so you get ebook, paper, back book, or um or audiobook. The audiobook is not my voice. Uh my publisher said let's let's just hold off on doing that, but then they ended up doing an AI. It does not annoy me. My voice annoys me, but but I I wasn't unhappy with the the AI, the AI version. So uh yeah, you can get three different uh three different versions of it.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:58

Yeah, and I highly recommend they do because it's a really good book with some great lessons in it.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:04

A good friend of mine gave me um a shining review on the what I know. What? You may not know him, his same as Terry Vaughn, he's kind of a badass, but but I was very honored that he would he would give me a review.

SPEAKER_05 1:41:20

I was honored when he asked me to to read Aruz. You put some great lessons in there. So my last thing for people is if they want training from you individually, whether that's corporate or individually, where do you where do you want them to go?

SPEAKER_04 1:41:33

LinkedIn. So you can find me. You can find me on LinkedIn and you can reach out. Um my email is uh Nikki Burgett at gmail.com. And I respond to all kinds of emails. Um you can call, but I'm not great at picking up the phone, and that's just because I'm really tired of those offers for that uh that I'm extended warranty on my car. So I tend to not, yeah, I tend to not pick up my phone if I don't recognize the number, but if you you could leave me a message, and um you can I believe my phone number you can get off of um off of LinkedIn as well.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:11

But um yeah, um I I'm quick to respond to to emails in your LinkedIn handle, is it your full name after the because isn't it LinkedIn.com in something slashes and all kinds of Nikki Burger, yeah. Okay, perfect. All right, it's fantastic. Well, you have shared a lot. I know there's so much more in your book, having read it. Loved it. Brilliant lesson. So it's not too long, it's not too long. It's not too long.

SPEAKER_04 1:42:39

It's not too long. Love thinking it's like this.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:42

It's the perfect book. Yes, it's a great book. So I do highly recommend, especially for people who are carrying. Being more observant will only ever be a good thing. Right. You carry you carry a hammer, everything's a nail. It can sometimes unfortunately be the same thing with people who carry guns, and you want your observation skills to give you options. The more time you have from the the point you recognize a potential threat to your decision to have to react to it and what that reaction could or should be, the more time you have, the better.

SPEAKER_04 1:43:15

So again, anything and understand understand the laws in your state. Yes. That is that is really, really important. I know a lot of people that have moved to getting insurance, and I carried it for a while and through USCCA. Um, so there are organizations where you can go and just it kind of gives you extra protection. Um whether it's a justified shooting or not, um, you still can come up with civil liability. And um, there's just a lot of things that that can happen uh after um a shooting. So protecting yourself is really important. So train. Always train.

SPEAKER_06 1:43:53

Yeah, reality-based training. Yes.

SPEAKER_05 1:43:56

Thank you so much for jumping on here for this podcast episode. You've shared dozens of those.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:05

So we're clear.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:07

Thanks. Well, we may have to do a part two, and if we if so, we'll do it in the afternoon, playing it a little bit more to you.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:13

Oh no, I'd still get it for at least. Don't tell anyone else that. I don't want people calling me going, oh, we went at 8 a.m. I'm like, no. No, only Terry gets that slot. Just Terry.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:26

Thank you so much for joining. All right, thank you for listening to today's episode. Don't forget to hit that like uh button, to share, to subscribe so you never miss an episode. Also help support the channel and help us keep bringing you the guests that you want to hear from for now. Thanks for tuning in for this one. Everybody have a safe week, stay alert, and uh we'll see you in the next one. Cheers.