Join Mick and Dave along with a 7th Generation of Plasterers , Master Plasterer Mr Mark Hardman

The  Mick and Dave Show, the most listened to independent Plasterers Podcast across the UK and the USA 

NEW EPISODE OUT NOW 🔥

Join Mick & Dave as we sit down with Master Plasterer Mr Mark Hardman — a man whose plastering roots go all the way back to 1891… that’s 8 generations in the trade!

This is what it’s all about — real lads, real stories, and proper craftsmanship passed down through the years.

We talk heritage, the changes in the trade, and what it really means to carry on a family name in plastering.

If you love the trade, you’ll love this one.

Transcript

SPEAKER_07 0:00

Seven five, four, seven five. Four three.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

How are you doing? I'm good yourself. Yeah, good. Brilliant. You know, with podcasts, you get these reviews back and reports every so often. And got one back other day that says the Mick and Dave show is the most listened to, purely plastering podcast out there, you know, across the United Kingdom, the United States. Found it hard to believe, but that's the report I get back that we are the most listened to. So let's welcome all our new listeners on board and thanks for listening and putting up two bloody idiots from Britain. What do you think?

SPEAKER_06 1:21

I think it's quite bloody amazing, really, considering we we started this as a bit. I wouldn't say it's a bit of a laugh, but as an idea to just start off doing the transformation from scientist work to teaching.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

And it just escalated. Escalated. But what I need to point out, we are the most independent. You know, you're up against your big radio stations, one thing another, you can't you can never compete with them. We start off with one bloody microphone. You know what I mean? Now we we expanded, we both got a mic. So yeah, we went up in the world, didn't we? So thanks for listening. And for all our new listeners, what have we got on the show tonight, Mick?

SPEAKER_06 2:05

Well, very good personal friend of both of us, to be fair. Seventh generation masterplaster lives it about six, seven miles from me at the most. A guy called Mr. Mark Hardman.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

Really a bit, yeah. Quite honest, I have known Mike some time. Absolutely top, one of the most respected classing bit, nice big person, nice personality, skills, superb, absolutely top, top male. We're really, really pleased to have him on board. So let's get on with it. One of the most highly respected plasters in the United Kingdom. There's not many people who can trace the generations back, basically, and you know, in the same village. So welcome, Mark, and we're pleased to have you on board.

SPEAKER_07 3:56

Thank you very much. Uh you want to tell us a history? I will do, yeah. I I my dad and my grandfather were my first connection towards the plastering trade, and I've grown up with it around me from being very little. And then before I'd even left school, I wanted to start earning myself some money for some Doc Martin boots for secondary school. So I was 11 when I first started with my father. And at that time, a bag of plaster was 50 kilos, and that was way heavier than me. Yeah, my dad being my dad, it's like you want to earn the money, you get on with it, boy. And back in those days, David, it was a stick and a podcha. Yeah, yeah. There's no mixing drills, and by word, you can certainly develop muscles where you didn't know you had muscles at that time of life. Yeah. Yeah. Or find eights that you never knew existed. You could, you could. You didn't need to go to the gym. So, but by that time, I was working school holidays and weekends with my dad, and before I'd left school, I could float a little bit and skim a lot. So then I'd left school. I'd left school, I'd I'd give I was given two options, either Liverpool College or Manchester College of Building. So the the way the transport arrangements were, I went to Manchester College of Building in 1981. And from 1981 to 1983, I did my city and gills with Advanced Craft. Yeah. Part way through that, I got I got the Apprentice of the Year Award for my first year. I didn't manage it the other two years, but so somebody a chance. Yeah, yeah. And then I progressed through the trade with my dad. But my word, my dad was hard work. He really was. Everything had to be just so and just right. But back in the back in the days we're working with my dad, but I've I've mixed a bucket of plaster for him with the punch in a stick, I've put it on the spot board, and then the tiniest bit of lump on the spot board would be up and over on its heels. It was, it was, it was. Oh, dude. And a bag of browning was bigger than me coming through a doorway. But you you learn to develop and adjust and and go through things, but and then then as I spent time in it, I learned that more and more of the family history was going back quite far. Now, up until recently, I I was led to believe that there were five generations in my family. So I'd done a bit of studying and I'd found out who those five generations were, those consecutive generations, from like father to son, father to son, all the way down.

SPEAKER_01 7:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 7:14

Then in March 2023, I got granted Master Plaster at Plaster's Guild. My little sister over in Australia, she did a bit more research on the family history, and she found a sixth consecutive generation within the family, and then a further seventh generation. It had skipped a generation. I think somewhere down the line, somebody wanted to be an electrician, and these things changed the mind. Yeah. But research is still going on with that one, but really it that yeah. But because of the way records are kept and everything else, that the the archives become a bit varied and and stuffed. Some don't mention occupation a great deal, or it gets missed out. But it it's like consecutive father and son plastering from 1825 to to current with me in 2025. Wow, it's fantastic, is that and realistically yeah, yeah, it's it's an illness that runs through our blood, I'm afraid, but yeah, there's I I can't I've heard it say that you know you can cut a plaster and it bleeds gypsum.

SPEAKER_01 8:50

I think that applies to you, Mark. You know, I don't think you bleed blood. Definitely you do bleed gypsum, don't you? You come out of the vein with the DNA and one thing or another. You know, there's not many people can actually. I imagine you're very rare. Obviously, people maybe send me contacts and let us know, but you know, I bet there's not many people can go back seven generations, you know, of plasters in a family. You know, it's a bloody marvellous achievement. Marvellous.

SPEAKER_07 9:25

Bernard over in Ireland, he he granted me masters to the National Plasters Guild over in Ireland, and what they did over there for me, they posthumously granted four generations of the family, which was I was over the moon with that, David. It was it was without those my forefathers, I wouldn't be here now and doing what I'm doing, and yeah, yeah, the likes of Bernard, who is is a great inspiration to me, as as a a lot of other people are a great inspiration, but without my forefathers, I wouldn't be here doing what I'm doing and trying to encourage other people to do what we do, and that's what it's all about, David, isn't it?

SPEAKER_06 10:20

Yeah, well it's moving it on from when we've gone, when all said and done. Yeah, it's his mick, yeah, yeah. And that's that's the challenge because I think the mindset changed for construction in the in the mid 80s, where everybody sort of wanted to make a fortune but not have to work for it. Yeah, progressively got worse as the generations have evolved. Now it's like you I see kids most days that that want to earn a thousand pounds a week and sit behind a desk and a computer. And I'm just like, well, if that's what you want to do, then once you find someone like that, let me know. I'd be like, Well, what do you mean? I said, Well, I'll ask some of that.

SPEAKER_01 11:13

Yeah, yeah. It doesn't quite exist, does it? Maybe for one or two people, not for the majority.

SPEAKER_07 11:20

I would like to that for the likes of us, when we were going to college, it was awfully hard. It really was, because like from here to Manchester, it's like three bike rides, two taxis, a bus and a train. But you know, yeah, yeah. Even more so from your neck of the woods, Mark. Yeah. Doing daytime wasn't too bad, but night school was a bind. It really was. Yeah. Night school was seven till nine. There was no ten o'clock train out of Manchester. I had to get the 11 o'clock, which got me into Delamere at midnight. Dad being daddy wouldn't pick me up, so it was running through Delamere Forest at midnight. So yeah.

SPEAKER_06 12:07

Yeah, the joys. Yeah. As the forest, most people don't want to run through at leading certain o'clock. No, it might end at midnight.

SPEAKER_07 12:15

No, but I was young and fit then, but I I got that way that after a couple of weeks I could run one end of the forest without stopping, but yeah. But you have to make sacrifices, Omi, don't you? Yeah, thank you. And this is I I didn't realise or understand at the at the time, but you have to make sacrifices for the future, let's say. You don't understand at the time, and you think it's hard, and the money's rubbish, and you want to move on to the next stage of the ladder. But it it's that progressive learning. You we've all been there and we've all had itchy feet, and we want to get earning a decent wage, but you've got to learn first, and it's awfully hard to understand. And and especially nowadays, with the cost of living being so expensive, people are forced into a situation where they've got to try and earn big money and big wages, and which is crippling apprentices and such.

SPEAKER_06 13:23

Exactly, it's it's an absolute nightmare. And it's a lot of the kids don't see the bigger picture, they want it here and they want it now. Yeah, it's like you trying to explain to an apprentice that, like, yeah, at the moment, yeah, you are on what we'd call crap money. But give yourself three or four years, and then you'll start earning decent money. Yeah, yeah. But they can't see that far ahead. It's gotta be here and it's gotta be now. It's like some of the some of the quotes you get off kids to like a basic college wall are just out of this world. It's like, right, what are you gonna charge me to skim that you think it dave? Because we've done it a few times. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and the prices range from like 50 quid through to like 600 quid for a wall, it's probably what, four meters square if you're looking.

SPEAKER_01 14:14

Oh dear me.

SPEAKER_06 14:15

Do you know what I mean? Yeah, so I'll sit there and go, like, realistically, if you're looking at site prices, you've got what four square meters. You're probably looking at about 12 quid kid. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I said, Yeah, it's not an easy game. It's something you get into when you have got to graft. Yeah, if you don't like graft, do yourself a favor, wash them tools off and go and walk through the door because you're no good if you if you if you haven't got the ethic.

SPEAKER_07 14:46

Yes, yes. And the the thing being, Mick, as you as you get older, you will need those qualifications. A lot don't realise, and they're part way through the college course and they think they're good enough and they jump ship. Yeah, and then later on in life, if they want to move to Australia or somewhere else, they need their quality they need their they need their qualifications, or or they want to go into teaching or or even another career, and they realize that that you need that that they've got part of this and a bit of that, and so on and so forth. But yeah, but nothing about your qualifications. I I banged on about three.

SPEAKER_01 15:30

Me and Mick are always all about that. And one situation I used to come across quite regular, you know, I'd be teaching apprentices, and the apprentices had more qualifications than the bosses, you know, and then boss had come to can I do a level three, Dave, can I do an MVQ level three? Because the you know, his apprentice were more qualified than what you know, than what the boss were. Oh, I've got to get on site, I haven't got my CSS card. I need a level two. Well, you you shouldn't get a level three, you know what I mean? And they found out later that yeah, you do need these qualifications, you really do. And me and Mick are always banging out about this, you know, trying to inspire people and trying to you know point them in the right direction. That you do need any and one day your body's gonna give up and you won't be able to skim that wall. And what are you gonna do then? Yeah, then what you're gonna do. What are you gonna do?

SPEAKER_00 16:21

Yeah, yeah, that's it.

SPEAKER_01 16:23

That answer both me and Mick, really. Me, you know, my shoulders went, and I had no qualifications. I had to go to college, do a level two, do a level three, do my teacher training, do me, you know, list and list of qualifications you had to actually get. But because I got it, you know, Mick very similar. He came to Burnley College, he had sitting girls, we wouldn't recognize him, so we had to go back to level two, get his level two, get his level three, teacher. All the same, same as, you know what I mean? And so we we both, and that's why we bang on about it so much, is because we've learned our life. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You've done all this and you've earned big money and done that, but you've nothing on paper to back it up. You haven't got a piece of paper that says you can do it, and if you want to go abroad, like you say, Mark, and you know what I mean. You're on all right, you've no qualifications.

SPEAKER_00 17:17

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:18

You know what I mean? And it's so important to have these qualifications, it really, really is. And the older you get, the more important it is to get them when you when you're young, you know, there used to be YTS, young, thick, and stupid. You know what I mean? And uh and that's what it was called, weren't it? But nowadays, you know, your apprentices come to college, he does a level two and does a level three, hopefully, and gets his qualifications and he's set up for life. And should later on you want to go into teaching, I would not accept anybody when I'm a program leader if they didn't have a level three qualification. You're not coming working for me, mate. Because one, I can't put you right into teacher training to get into teacher training. You you need a level three to get you on there. You haven't got that level three. Well, sorry, you're no use to me. Why have you not got it?

SPEAKER_06 18:10

Yeah, it's it's a right it's a painful area when you first move into teaching, though, because it's like, yes, you can have a lad at level two, but that lad at level two is never ever going to be able to teach anyone at level three because he's not got the skills and knowledge to do it. And he's gonna be stuck teaching the level ones, yeah, which is where everybody starts. You always start with the level ones, yeah. And to be brutally honest, teaching level ones year in, year out is mind-numbing. Mind numbing. Yeah, because you know the there's no challenge to yourself either. No.

SPEAKER_07 18:55

With regards to the the students, Mick, and and and sort of moving them forward, is it is it just going to a dead end for you as such?

SPEAKER_06 19:06

It's well, it is, but it isn't, because it you've got to have a different mindset as soon as you go into teaching. It's then suddenly not about you. Whereas we've all been self-employed and we know it's about us getting something done. Now it's now the boots on the other foot. You're training somebody else to achieve basically first a level one, and then hopefully progress into level two, and then if they're good enough, progress into level three. Yeah. Now I I was a bit of a sod when I used to teach for level ones because you always used to get the one that was the loud mouth and was the pain in the backside and all the rest of it, and it used to be my challenge, it used to be my challenge to get him to complete his level one and make him good enough at level one to progress to level two. So that always used to be my challenge, and then when he got to level two, the kid started to lose the mouth a little bit then. So that then didn't become a challenge, so you're gonna have to find another one in the group that was very challenge to get him through level two, to get him good enough to progress to level three. But then other factors got thrown into it. Skill build competitions arrived. You were then looking for lives that were had got enough work ethic and enough about them to be able to do the task, but to do it well and repeatable make as well, isn't it? Yeah, exactly. So half half half the battle we're teaching is as you know, as we all know, is repetition improves. Yeah, yeah. Every time you repeat something, it should be better than the last time you did it.

SPEAKER_07 21:12

We've got even as far back, well, I'm like 61 now, but I was doing a job with Carl Claydon, and we needed our CSCS cards. They didn't recognize my City and Girls with my advanced craft. No, they won't. Excuse me. So I I had to go and get my NVQ as such. Yeah. Yeah, and it cost me a I know there's a big hoo-ha about it and everything else, it cost me nearly a thousand pounds to get my NVQ level three and get assessed for it. The chap that came out to assess me said, You know more about the job than I do, Mark. Yeah. But I still had to do the paperwork, and he had to come out and have a look at what I was doing. And basically, it was just to sit down and chat and a cup of tea and a biscuits with him because he said, I know what you're up to, and I know that you can. So he said, It's just a formality for me on my side, but you've got to do it and you've got to be seen to be doing it. But with regards to that, I do think the health and safety aspect of the CSCS card is a good thing, and it's a bonus towards the building trade, but it's a kick in the bum when you've been when you've had your city in guilds in advanced craft and and they don't recognize it, and you've got to do the NVQ for the CSCS card. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 22:52

I think the argument's always been because the city in guilds is always college-based. Yeah. Even though you went in as an apprentice, the city in guilds was always a college-based quote. So until they actually brought the MVQ out, anything before that was just classed as a college-based quote. So therefore, with them classing it like that, you weren't seen to have the site experience, even though you were an apprentice. If that makes sense. I remember a lot of the lads having City and Gil's quads that couldn't get a card. Had to go down the route getting um the blue card for the NVQ level two. Yeah. Because a lot of the sites were turning around and saying if you haven't got a CSCS card, minimum blue, because your quo's written on the back of it, NVQ plastering level two, if that's not written on your cards, you can't come on this site and blaster.

SPEAKER_01 24:24

And that was the way it was going. Well, also, Mick, you've got to bear in mind from the assessor's point of view, you know, I had to have been on many, many sites doing many assessment, but you wouldn't be allowed on site just to do an assessment to have a card. The first thing the agent would say to you, have you got your CSGS card? And it wouldn't allow you to go on side just to assess a student or a mature plaster or whoever. So, you know, again, it boils down to having the qualifications to progress. And MVQ carries far more weight than the college-based qualifications. You get your college-based qualifications, but you won't let you on the sideline mixed heads. And you know, you need that MVQ is uh your experience, you know, you where you're working, you know, you've got to work on side to get the MVQ, so it carries far more weight to it. It it does, and so well, you know, whatever stage of life you're at, you you really need to be doing the MVQs if you're gonna any type of progression, even you know, an assessor teacher, whatever you you really need to to get these clothes on, and if you don't got them, all you're doing, it's kidding yourself that you don't need them, you know. I mick said many times.

SPEAKER_07 25:40

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:42

Mick said, Oh, I I'm working with plaster, I've been doing this way all my life, and I don't need no qualifications. Maybe in past that were true. Today's it's done, it's not true. Yeah, you are good, you're very good, you must be. You won't still be working, but you haven't got a piece of paper to say that you can do it, and we have that piece of paper, you're not going to get another. And and you know, the we were touched the subject so many times, and to hear it coming from you, Mark, it is really backing up what we've said in the you know, the past. Yeah, you know, it's good. It is, it's good.

SPEAKER_06 26:17

Well, if you remember, Dave, you remember the first the first time we had to go out and do an on-site assessment, we both went together, didn't we? And we turned up to these two old boys that were doing uh doing a I've can't know if it was a barn or not. But um, they put all the lats up, aren't they?

SPEAKER_01 26:34

Yeah, yeah, it were a train to gain, they were heavy kids, weren't it? Level three, train to gain qualification, usually lots and we've gone in and sort of took one look at it and went, that is shame.

SPEAKER_06 26:46

Because you can you're turning up to assess two guys that actually probably know more than we do. Yeah, yeah, it's true. Yeah, so that was quite quite daunting because luckily they were quite good with it because we actually said to them, look, you probably know more than we do at the time, but we've got to assess you doing this for you to get your quote. And they were getting they they sort of went, Okay, we get that, but it that's that's the annoying, the annoying thing, because there's a lot of lads out there that look at it with somebody coming from college to assess them, thinking, Well, I know more than these. Well, you might do on the on the trade you're doing at the time, but the guy that's come from the college is there to assess you doing what you're doing. He's not there to tell you whether you're doing it right or wrong. He's basically there to assess whether you can do what you think you can do, basically.

SPEAKER_07 27:48

Because there's also the health and safety aspect of it though, Mick, yeah, which is which is very, very, very important. Yeah. You know, you the you sat in a booth and the test test conditions, you know, so I think that is the essential part of it, irrespective of what everybody's argument is, whether they can do the job or not. If you're going on site, you need to be aware of your dust masks, other people working around you, health and safety at heights, costs, and all that business. You need to be aware of of everything because it's not your reliability to other people and yourself. So, you know, it's yeah.

SPEAKER_06 28:36

So it's a billion nightmare because at the end of the day, it's like when we started, health and safety didn't exist. Didn't exist for no it wasn't there, it wasn't there. So now if you go into most of the new build houses, you can see on the stairwell walls the line where they've had the decking it. The skimming. Yeah, yeah, because you're not allowed to have any gaps, no, because you might fall down a two-inch gap.

SPEAKER_07 29:10

I've seen it make the before before choice are in, it's like a full platform, isn't it? Right through the middle.

SPEAKER_00 29:19

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 29:20

You can see you see that line in every house, every brand new house, and nobody's been able to get rid of it. And it does my head in because every time I've taught a kid to do a ceiling that's either too big for him or a wall tip that's too big for him, put a scrim line across it, go halfway across the scrim line, yeah. When it tightens up, pull it away, scrape the snotty bits back, yeah, you can match it up. Yeah, I watch people patch nowadays and it terrifies me because they're finishing up finishing up doing it like what, say a three-foot patch, and they're spreading it five, six foot wide. And I'm like, what are you doing? Well, do you do not think a patch to me was always meant to be visible? Yeah, yeah. You're not supposed to see the ridge lines. Do you not think that's why it's not? If you're spreading it halfway across the piggy wall, why haven't you just done the full wall and have done with it?

SPEAKER_01 30:23

That's what I'm trying to say to you, Mike, Mick. Do you not think that's why people, lads these days, skim a full wall? Instead of patching it, yeah, you'll fill your back, you do your backing, but instead of skimming it, you skim the full wall. You know what I mean? So you don't have a patch. Now, is that a better way of doing it? Not a better way. End of the day, you know what I mean? You've got to say, well, he's got a full wall done, and you're not gonna see a patch. Patching is very skillful, but skim a full wall, there's not as much skill in that. Yeah, yeah. But you're not as much skill, but you've got a full job, so you know what means two ways of looking at this, isn't there? I was always gone, Mark.

SPEAKER_07 31:06

I was always taught to cut back on the open edge. Yeah, cut back on your open edge. Yeah, you have to go.

SPEAKER_06 31:17

So when you run your hand over it, you don't get anything.

SPEAKER_01 31:19

Yeah, well, you want to be careful, but then it's just back. Well, you'd be careful when you cut it back when the material's wet, you're not careful, you get a bump, so you cut back and then scrape back on top of that. So when you cut in with your towel, you know, the wet plastic and raise a bit, so you either need the original patch, so you cut back and then scrape back after that to make sure that you do got two mil clearance to get you skimming in there. We know without any bumps or nothing like that along the line. You know, I I think skill, I always say patching is one of the most skillful jobs there is, and whether you're patching pebble dice, render, a cornice, whatever. I said before, there's two types of patching, where the hell is it, and who the bloody hell's done that? You know what I mean? Because if you do a job exactly painted, you can't even tell it's been done. But you have some guy come along and you can oh bloody hell, look at patch he's done, you know what I mean, and and and that's the difference, isn't there? So the hell of a difference that there really is, but is is patching and becoming a a lost art?

SPEAKER_06 32:27

Is it becoming more I would say well, since they brought easy fill out, yeah, it's a lost art. Everybody just easy fills now. You know, it and then go back the day after and sand it back, it's ridiculous.

SPEAKER_01 32:42

Absolutely ridiculous. That's a bloody disgrace, isn't it? You know, sand it wanted that is bloody off fire. I find that so yeah, insulting to tell you to sand back. Well, if you've done it properly, you'd no need to sand back. Do you know what I mean? And properly, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 32:59

So what I found when I was at school was I always used to struggle at school, and all the way through primary school and secondary school, all my school reports used to say Mark has the ability, but he doesn't try hard enough. So, you know, and I passed my exams just by the skin of my teeth and everything else. Then I went to college and I could do the workshop work, but I always struggled in the classroom in my night school. And then Mr. Everett at college called me into his office one afternoon, and he said, Can I have a word with you in my office? I'm like, Oh lordy no, what have I done? And he said, Are you dyslexic? I'm like, What's that? You wouldn't even know what that means, would you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, 1981, 82, or whenever it was. I I didn't know what it was. No, we didn't learn that.

SPEAKER_06 34:01

To be fair, I don't think anybody would have done it at that time, like as a school kid or a college kid.

SPEAKER_07 34:08

No, so he he explained to me what it was, and he asked me to do a little bit of a little bit of a written work and and stuff, and he said, Yeah, you're dyslexic. So as as I've progressed on in life, I've I've learned to adjust, you know, via spell check and and other little ways and means. And you you find ways around it, but what I've come to realise is it doesn't matter what sort of learning difficulties you have, there's always somebody at the end of the teaching route or your academic route that will help you and encourage you through it.

SPEAKER_01 34:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 34:55

And you can you can achieve no matter what hurdles you're facing, you can still achieve. I I didn't realise at 18, 19 that 40 years on I would have achieved what I have done now. And if it hadn't been for those people behind me realizing that I've got dyslexia and that I can get around these little problems and that I can deal with them, that I I would have been stuck in a little dip and I would have carried on with a little cloud over myself, per se. But I don't know whether you guys pick up on that.

SPEAKER_01 35:36

And it's one of the first things we have to check. To quite honest, Mikkel back me on this one. There's a majority, I'd say a large majority as well, plasters who does do suffer from some type of dyslexia. And what I used to do is with colours, so basically I'd avoid white paper with black ink. So I'd like aim for like blue, light blue paper with black ink, green or red. Green or red, and you'll find different students evolved with it, you know, can not read certain colours better than the other. I diagnosed my daughter, she's died, she's dyslexic, and colour is red. She has to have everything in red, you know, it tends to work over red, red background with blacking, oh, for Christ's sakes. You know what I mean? And so it's a common, you know, an experienced teacher comes across as quite regular, and more so in construction, because these little people who like yourself, Mark, oh, you dyslexic, no, you rubbish and all this, hang on a minute, they're not. They're very, very talented people, very talented, but they haven't given the opportunity to develop them skills. So when you go into a college environment, you know, as a teacher like me and Mick Rachel first, we hadn't all the bloody word bench. So we had to learn all that, and now it's a common thing, very common, you know what I mean. And it's and these people we get support in the classroom, overlays, different types of learning aids, powerpoints again, keep away from white background, black ink, and then your lesson becomes very inclusive. So you've got to include that student into your sessions, so it's not sat there, oh I can't read this. Like, you know, it's like you've been left marked, basically, you know what I mean, and that's where you'd end up with a lot of you know, yeah, yeah, lad in class who hadn't a bloody clue what's going on, you know what I mean. Um and it's no fault of his, it's a fault of he's a teacher for not identifying that. And one of the first things you do now, yeah, during icebreaker is you ask people, are you dyslexic? Well, they might not come forward with that, you might be a bit embarrassed. So you do like you know, well, what's what colours do you like best? So you do colour tests and things like that, and make you know, every teacher's got their own little learning age to help develop and and bring these lads out of the comfort zone, you know, take them out of the uncomfortable zone so they feel comfortable, you know, they can they're inclusive in the lesson. And yeah, and outs you have two or three colours, and that's it. And they choose whatever colour they wanted to. Go on, mate.

SPEAKER_06 38:21

But they tend they tend to do it now at the beginning of the year, and they'll take them in for dyslexia, dyscalcula, muscle. Dyspraxia, ADHD, dyspraxia, yeah, autism. Yeah, take them through a full range of tests now to start them off at the beginning of the year. Now, if they're diagnosed with either one and then they require overlays for it, they're usually given a coloured overlay straight away. Now, the kids being kids, nine times out of ten will forget their coloured overlay. Now done. So we've always got a right to what they class as like a learning outcome on a board. Now, for years, I used to we all used to do it, you all used to write black on white. Yeah, and then one of the kids actually came up to me and said, make that me eyes looking at that. I'm like, okay. So I wrote I wrote the same outcomes underneath in red, green, and blue. I said, Which one's better for you? And he turned around and said, Blue works for me or white. Okay. So from then on, I never ever used a black pen again on whiteboard. No, no, it was always red, green, or blue.

SPEAKER_01 39:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 39:46

It's like if you go to the stationary cupboard in the college, you'll tend to find most of the whiteboard markers are black.

unknown 39:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 39:55

And I'd pick every one of them up and bar the black one. And you'd have the woman in there who hands them out saying, Do you not want the black one? I say, No.

SPEAKER_01 40:04

No, you're not in the black.

SPEAKER_06 40:07

Yeah. Well, you look, they didn't they do lucky as if you're weird, because everybody picks up the black one first. And I'm like, No, I don't want it. And then I explained to her why I don't want it, and she goes, Oh, that makes sense. Because one of my first little tests when they come in, we have them usually for three days for induction at the beginning of the year. First day, usually in a classroom, and you've got them all in there, and I'll write three football teams in different colour pen on the board. And look at them all and go, right, tell me which one you can see clearly. And which one you can read. Yeah, and that people that'll then tell me what colour pen I'm gonna use for that green for that yeah.

SPEAKER_05 40:54

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 40:56

It's it it's so simple, it's scary, but so many people don't do it.

SPEAKER_01 41:00

Well, that's right.

SPEAKER_07 41:02

Do you find that the Come on Mark? Do you find that there's some some lads out there that are lacking academic skills but have got marvelous skills within the hands? Yeah, yeah. I find that must be so frustrating for those lads, you know, because there's a minimum entrance now for the college, isn't there? And and and stuff for those.

SPEAKER_06 41:27

Well, uh they're saying they're saying that, but then they do they have what support work is out course, Dave. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 41:37

Where if you're going into a main trade area, the requirement at the minute is usually a level three and grade three maths in English is the lowest grade. If you've got under that, they put them on what is now called a multi-skills course. But the drawback is you've got kids that are on under under that grade three that have then got to do maths in English again, but they don't turn up to the maths in English again. Yeah, so they're never gonna pass it. So you then your issue then is when they finish that multi-skills course, they then want to go on to a level one course, but you haven't finished your maths in English, and this is where it becomes frustrating because a kid might be brilliant at the trade he's going into because he's already had a go at it, but because of his mastered English, it's sort of holding him back, yeah. So I've had this argument in many a college about mastered English, and the only way a kid will learn mastered English is if you make it relevant to his trade, yeah, yeah. Because if it's not relevant to his trade, he's not interested. No, so during the course during the course of like a classroom lesson, because some of them you can have can be like recommended about an hour, hour and a half. Yeah, sometimes you'll get them for two hours. After about an hour, you lose interest if you're lucky, yeah, interests are gone. Yeah. So what I tend to do in that after once I've hit that hour mark, I take a break from the subject we're doing. Is it ready for this? Do me a favor. I'm gonna give you measurements for this room. I want you to work out how many plaster board we need to board it, how many bags of adhesive, how many bags of finish, any beads, scribble, whatever. And then I want you to work me out a price list for it. Which is gonna mean you're gonna have to use your phone, troll, troll round the internet, find your prices, put it all together, and then I want you to write me up a quote. And then when you've done that, we'll go around the room and see who's who's who's got the best, not the best quote. And then when you've all done that and they're like, oh that's brilliant, man. I really enjoy doing that. I said, Well guess what? And they go, What? I went, that's maths in English. And then you sit there and go shit. Because the big argument at the minute is every time you do a theory lesson, you've got to incorporate maths and English and respect and all of the kind of little values that need added in there as well. Yeah, but now it's not just a quality. You've got to have what they call your softer skills as well, which include all your respect and all the rest of it.

SPEAKER_01 44:49

Alright. Oh, we're gonna say what I do, make you know, on about what I used to do as well. Um and then one of the most difficult things to learn is a scale rule. Now you get a basic scale rule, it's triangular. Uh so what I used to do realistically, I'd put a drawing on the board, say, right lads, I want you to draw that, and give me all the scale rule, and I break it down. And by breaking it down, show them how to use a scale rule 50 to 1 and 25 to 1. Then they'd draw a room, and then from that room, they'd take the measurements, and then they do what Mick just said, they'd then work out the prices, and all of a sudden you come in your mask and your English. And not only that, then they're learning to use a scale rule at the same time. So, should they get a drawing in the future? They're not looking, oh, what the bloody hell's this? How do they do that? Oh, it's one to fifty, or it's one to twenty-five, you know, or whatever the scale is, and they know how to use a scale rule and develop the skills like that.

SPEAKER_06 45:52

Well, they brought they brought a unit in now that that's covered with under the principles of construction. Oh right, okay. It's like, yeah, it's just got and the principles of construction one, no matter what trade you're doing, you're gonna have to cover roofing, woodwork, joinery, all kinds of other bits as well. Yeah. Like floor lane and the and the and the rest of it. It's just gone absolutely bonkers. And as daft as it sounds, the principles one is harder to pass than your health and safety.

SPEAKER_07 46:26

Well, I can imagine. Trades are becoming more segmented as it is, though, Mick, aren't they? So it's it it's putting a greater burden on each trade as it is, without them becoming any more segmented. Because our our our trade is becoming very segmented.

SPEAKER_06 46:45

And I think it'll get broken up even more.

SPEAKER_07 46:48

Yes, very, very likely, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 46:51

Yeah, it's like it's like we're saying there's a there's a separate MVQ now for dry lining. And I'm pretty sure there's a separate one for force reading as well now. I wouldn't be surprised off. Yeah, but I won't be surprised if the next next couple of steps are MVQ for render and then an MVQ just for skimming. I can do the comment.

SPEAKER_07 47:22

Definitely for rendering, mate, because there's a lot of lads out there doing it and a lot of it's quite an involved job on sites as well, isn't it?

SPEAKER_06 47:32

So Well, it's getting to the stage where you could you could just employ one gang to do everything. That's what you used to do. Now if you go to the diets, you've got lads in there that only board, lads in there that only dry line, lads in there that can just skip and it's a separate gang outside and the render. So to me, and this is my own personal view, is the fact that you're employing all these different men, then surely the costs have got to go through the roof.

SPEAKER_07 48:05

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 48:07

Whereas realistically, if you've got the gang that can do the lot, surely you're gonna save money. Surely.

SPEAKER_01 48:36

You know, you had to go outside, render, pebble dash, whatever, floor screed. Yeah, and it was all classes. You trade, and even tiling. You might have to go and tile kitchens, and many kitchens I've tiled, many kitchens, floors, tile floor, and it was all expected. It weren't like a separate job. No, you do this, so you're laying them, you're not using a deh. No, you're laying your tiles in sand and cement, and that's bloody skill. That's a skill on its own, you know, tiling a floor in purely sand and cement. It you know, it's like a semi-dry mixture, but not too dry, and because you know dear man, what a skill that were, and what a painstaking job spending your, you know, where these days it's easier just put your floor level down, put your adhesive down, and have you got a nice square away. You go, but then we're like setting dots and screens on the floor to get a nice level floor. Then you you know, we used to tell between timber buttons, get them level and tap down, and oh it was such a painstaking job to to do. But you say all that is gone, and one of the firms I worked at, one of the very first firms I worked at, I was just expected your plaster, go and tile floor, all right. Yeah, you know, towel kitchen, all right, all right. Fair enough. How big is it? It's an industrial one, you know what I mean. Um Robert, products have changed as products have changed. Products have changed as well, though. Yeah, they made it easier. Sorry, it's it's easier, yeah. Like if you tile the floor, you mark tile in a wall in sand and cement. So, what do you do first of all? You've got to soak your tiles in water so they're not porous. Yeah, you're using wet tiles, your hands are all bloody wet, and otherwise, if you don't do that, the moisture from the sand and cement is going to suck out and into the towel, it's gonna drop off. So you have to you know get rid of all the you know the tiles and to be porous, and you know, there's so many things you had to do, and uh I'm a di end of the day, I'm a dinosaur. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_07 50:43

And it's yeah, but um do you think the material do you think the materials have changed the trade, or has the trade changed the materials?

SPEAKER_05 50:54

I think it's a bit of a thrilling question, Mark.

SPEAKER_07 50:59

Yeah, because that that that's probably something for discussion. I know there's like a lot of the manufacturers and stuff that they god dear, we we we we've seen all aspects of it, haven't we? In our time, we've gone from lime to sand and cement, and then lights and browning that doesn't even exist anymore.

SPEAKER_00 51:27

And then hard wool and white, didn't it?

SPEAKER_07 51:34

Do you remember this paramount boards and all sorts of things?

SPEAKER_01 51:38

So you remember ice suction browning? Do you remember ice suction browning? Yes, for thermalite blocks, blowt algorithm for thermalite blocks. And another slash for you seraphyte, seraphite B. Oh terrible stuff. That was terrific. That was a C class plaster, you know what I mean? And it was like I use that when I'm working down in London, and architect specified seraphyte saying what the fuck's seraphy? Never fucking heard of it, you know what I mean? And it was like common down there, oh yeah, get some seraphy. What do you want about it?

SPEAKER_06 52:17

I know a couple of lads, I know a couple of lads working on voids in Liverpool, and they're still using it sometimes. Can you still buy it? It must be special.

SPEAKER_07 52:26

You can still get your hands on it.

SPEAKER_06 52:28

Wow, but it's like you wouldn't want it. No, no. No, do you know what I mean? It's like render-wise, yeah. I think the materials have changed the trade. Oh, yeah. Definitely. Most definitely. I'm not a great fan of Monacoose, never have been and never will be.

SPEAKER_07 52:48

I'm the same on that one. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 52:51

Because you just don't get you don't want to, Dave. It's one of them, it's it's not a case of it being a part of material, really. I think it's just a case of it's not looked after properly. And not done properly. Because what tends to happen is people go on and they throw it on, they borrow it all off. Leave it, then scratch it again. Nine times out of ten it's left, it's left too long, and you can see you can't close all over it. Or if you hit it too early and you can see the little glary sunspots, as I call them, that just shine out at you. But they never seal it.

SPEAKER_04 53:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 53:38

Because they don't seal it, that's where the issues come. So two years down the line, it's look lovely until all this sudden drop starts coming off the roof and starts getting splattered down and you can't get it off because it's not been sealed. But the life doesn't seal it because the sealer costs an hour and a lift. So in effect, people always say to me, Yeah, yeah, well, your acrylic costs more. I said, Yeah, the acrylic does cost more. But you've got a longer longer longer lifespan on it. And if you ever need to change it, you can literally prime it and go straight to the top again with a different colour.

SPEAKER_07 54:22

But me me as a plaster, I don't like render on a on a building anyway. You know, it's it's render on a building is a is a last resort to me unless it unless it's been built specifically for rendering. If if a building's being rendered for some reason, it's they're trying to hide something or cover something up usually.

SPEAKER_06 54:52

If it's been done in a decent phase, Britt then yeah, fair call. Then you know it's getting render. Yeah, yeah. Well the drawback is if you look on a lot of the new estates now, most of them are rendered.

SPEAKER_01 55:09

Yeah. What you have to consider is a lot of post-war, post first world war, post-second world war, a lot of properties built then were built with a lower quality of brick, and then pebble dash was done, and you'll find these days lots of pebble dash semi-detechs. You start tacking it off, and guess what? The burning brick comes with you, doesn't it? You know, you know what I mean? It does. They were built with cheaper bricks, so and that's why the the the the the the basically, so yeah, and and rendering, so it's been around for years and years, obviously, but a lot of it is to subsidize the quality of the brick to keep the cost of the building down, and that's why they use a lot of that, it's cheaper to to render a building than build with good quality brick and and sandstone or whatever, you know, Accrington brick or whatever. So it was cheaper brick, cheaper to produce a building, and they could mass produce these buildings, and that's why they rendered them all back. That that was one of the main reasons behind it. So, yeah. That makes sense. Yeah, yeah. But that anyway, but it isn't lads. I'll have to we are running out of time, so we'll have to say uh goodbyes. Mike, it's been bloody great to have me on board, mate. It'd been you know, it's good to see you back in action, it's really good, and we'll have to continue this conversation again because you know we're all blasters and we have a lot of knowledge and stuff. So thanks for coming on board, we really appreciate it. What do you say, mate?

SPEAKER_07 56:47

And both of you guys, thank you. Thanks, Mark. Cheers, and um, I'll be glad to leave you another one for you.

SPEAKER_01 56:54

Oh, definitely. We'll be getting asked you.

SPEAKER_07 56:58

All right, you take care, lads. Thank you. Take care, Mark. Take care, guys.

SPEAKER_12 57:04

I'm gonna play some music for you right now. Here we go.

SPEAKER_02 57:13

Naughty pointing, nothing pointing out the point, and it's a good idea.

SPEAKER_01 59:35

Yeah, thanks, Mikey. Great that good uh good chat, that. You enjoy that, Mick. Loved it. I love talking to Mark.

SPEAKER_06 59:42

Mark's just a a font of knowledge, it's unbelievable what he knows. Yeah, total goo scary. Total goo, top, top man, absolutely. He knows he knows my brother-in-law as well. And my brother-in-law keeps saying to him. Because Mark works six, seven days a week. And my brother-in-law keeps saying to him, Mark, you need to get yourself an object. And before Mark even gets a challenge to answer, brother-in-law turns around to him and says, 'Oh, you've already got an object, haven't you, Mark?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:12

It's plastering.' Well, you know, if it's his hobby, you never have a day after work because you enjoy what you're doing all the time. So yeah, well, thanks, Mark. Thanks for coming on board. We will have you back sooner or later. So, Mick, it's that time of week again, Wancruit Week. You know, God's sake, you get spoiled for choice, don't we? You could say anyone in political, but bloody hell fire. There's only one bloody knob in Britain, in there, you know. There's a lot of knobs out there, but who do you think, Mick? Who do you think? He's definitely the biggest. He's definitely the biggest. So yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:51

Let's put it logical.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:53

Even Donald doesn't like it. No, why would he? Nobody likes him. You know, nobody likes him whatsoever. All you have to do is go on YouTube. Bloody hellfire, you go on YouTube, you see all the bloody videos, it's unreal. Absolutely. So, yeah, Sir Kia, again, you're taking over this show. You're on it more than we are. He's on it more than we are. So, yeah, Sir Kia, you are our wanker of the week.

SPEAKER_09 1:01:25

I'm a wanker, I'm a wanker, and it does me good luck. It doesn't mean well. Should I wanker? I'm a wanker, and I'm always pulling my hood.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:34

Do you agree? Yep. Totally agree. Right, coming to end it show now. It's been a good show. Really enjoyed having Mark on board. Absolutely superb. Again, welcome, you know. Thanks for all new listeners that are coming on board. I'm hoping you're enjoying it. And you know, you give us feedback, contact us through the magazine, through Facebook. You can find us all over the place. Let us know. What do you say? So I'm gonna say it's a goodbye from me, Dave. And is he gonna speak? Of course, it's a goodbye from me, Mick. Goodbye. See you soon.

SPEAKER_11 1:02:14

Always look on the bright side of life. Always look on the light side of life.