Immaterial World
A dedicated and transparent space to re-center how we explore glamour, fashion, magic, wellness, culture, and everything else we love, together.
hosted by Jessica Richards and Jezmina Von Thiele
Immaterial World
WHY ARE WE DOING THIS?
WHY ARE WE DOING THIS?
Welcome to Immaterial World! A dedicated and transparent space to re-center how we explore glamour, fashion, magic, wellness, culture, and everything else we love together.
For more about Jessica visit: www.the12th.house and Instagram: @jessicaxrich
For more about Jezmina visit: www.jezminavonthiele.com and Instagram: @jezmina.vonthiele
Hosted by Jessica Richards and Jezmina Von Thiele
Music and editing by DIA LUNA
Instagram: @dialunamusic
Artwork by Lane Friend
Instagram: @friendlane
Welcome to Immaterial World, a dedicated and transparent space to recenter how we explore glamour, magic, culture, and everything else we love together.
SPEAKER_01:I am so excited to be here with you. Jasmina, why are we doing this?
SPEAKER_03:We both come to spirituality from different butts, you know, different worlds, different perspectives, but with some parallels. And we've both been talking about how it's so interesting that spiritual practice, something that has been ancient and the mainstays of so many different um, well, really all cultures have some kind of spirituality. And also this is something that can be trendy and it can be very commercial, and um it has its uh ups and downs and um joyful sides and problematic sides, and we just love exploring it and commenting on it and talking about it together.
SPEAKER_02:And it's so true. I know we've met in a more professional capacity where you have been a reader for me, but I feel like we've been having this conversation since we met. And one of the first controversial things, I hope there's many controversial things that I'll say as we continue to move forward, but I actually hate the word trend, especially with spirituality as the subject matter. And, you know, when I talk about trend forecasting, which is primarily what I'm known for in the space that I've been working in, this idea that spirituality is now trending, or that we're seeing a lot of subjects coming up in the spiritual wellness world that feel like we haven't seen them in the past, I always think that there's shifts in the cultural zeitgeist that are happening. So, you know, as so long as we've been in any sort of relationship, you know, like I said first, more of a professional relationship, now more friends and now colleagues and collaborators. I love that this is going to be a space for us to have these kind of conversations and talk about what we don't love about it, what we think we can all do a bit better. And I even love this idea that we're gonna add a lot of people into our community from so many different places and so many different backgrounds to share in these conversations with us.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, something that is sticking out to me right now is I forget who said this, but one of us commented that it seems like none of the people we really want to be famous for their work are famous. Like this seems like a really good opportunity to highlight people who are doing really incredible work that intersects spirituality, wellness, even your day-to-day like fashion and beauty and just being a person out in the world. And they don't really have any notoriety, they don't they don't have enough support. And I think that's something that can be frustrating, um, just uh operating as both like a spiritual business and practitioner and operating within capitalism. A lot of times people that I'm most excited about are not getting the spotlight that I feel like they deserve. And people who trouble me sometimes get a lot of spotlight. And not always, but like some like often enough that I I want to talk about it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, no, I I deeply relate to that. And, you know, as I've been really exploring so many different modalities and meeting with so many different healers, I like to say, you know, as an eternal optimist, that some of the experiences that I've had were so that I can see how bad it can be out there and sort of where there's opportunities to to grow. But the other part of it is that truly I've met some individuals and some healers and really had these life-changing experiences, these transformational experiences. And I I love that in our chats and in our conversations as we move through, that we're going to give people a platform to talk about these beautiful gifts that they have and what's out there, because I think that there's such an opportunity for education here. Um we don't have to be against consumerism. We all have to participate in consumerism in some way, whether it's in fashion or creativity or spirituality, but we want to be more responsible about everything that we're doing. And we want to have these really open conversations and know where there's opportunity for all of us to do better and all of us to to grow more community and collaborative efforts.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I really love that because I'm absolutely not a perfect person. We're not we're not trying to be perfect, infallible people. But I think it's really lovely to be excited about learning more about the roots of the practices we love, whether they come from our backgrounds or not, thinking about how we can do these things better, how we can spotlight people doing wonderful things, like how we can um practice the things that we love with uh care and consideration and uplift people who should be uplifted.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. And also I find, and we've had this conversation before, that because I'm coming from more of a non-spiritual wellness background, this is something that's been more in my personal practice up until the past year and a half or so. But the more I'm in this world that people that I know from fashion spaces or creative spaces that aren't necessarily in spiritual wellness will approach me and they'll say, um, who do I talk to? I've actually been seeing dead people my whole life. Or um, do you see colors surrounding people when you talk to them? I'm like, oh wow, how um how fascinating. Maybe I do know someone that you should talk to about that. And I think this is a fun space for that too. Um, maybe there's people that want to listen and learn more because they haven't had the chance to do this deep dive on their own and they're going to be really excited about some of the people we're speaking with for sure.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I think this is such a great space for people to write in and ask questions. I think it would be really fun to hear from listeners about what you want to know about, what you have questions about, experiences that you've had. And I think it's just a fun place that if you are the kind of person where you love the intersections of fashion, beauty, wellness, spirituality, if that's your jam, like so do we. So we'll nerd out about it with you and um and show you the people we love. And I'm also always so excited whenever folks write in to Romanistan, uh, the podcast I do with Paulina Stevens about Romani culture and um the diasporic ethnic group originally from India, also known by the uh racial slur and misnomer gypsies. Um, we love it when people write in and say, like, oh, will you please talk about this person or this topic? And I think that's it'll be so nice to do that here too.
SPEAKER_02:I love that. And I also love that we're asking the practitioners and the healers that we're inviting into the space, the creatives, hey, who else should we talk to? Because everybody has someone really cool in their network that that deserves the platform, that deserves the uplifting, um, so that there's more people brought to the table and more diversity in the conversation for sure.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, because that is such a thing where I really feel like there's there really truly is room enough for all of us to succeed and do our thing and be happy and abundant. And the best kind of abundance is when you uplift others with your platform, with your opportunities. So we are all about that.
SPEAKER_02:Yes. And you've been so kind to me as I've been moving into this space. I always think of you as my first champion. I was like, oh, if Jez thinks I'm cool, then I'm good.
SPEAKER_03:Actually, yeah, let's talk about our meet cute. How did we meet?
SPEAKER_02:Oh my gosh. Well, I mean, I would love to give a little bit about my background and then how we got there because I think that I was definitely in my most broken when I met you. So let's talk about the path to brokenness. Um, you know, I grew up outside of Boston in the suburbs, and I always like to say if you're from New England or especially from that area, there's a lot of innately witchy things that you're exposed to that perhaps in other parts of the US or other parts of the world you might not have as much exposure or it things that you think are normal, uh, are really not as normal, or uh there's not as much education. Um I've always been interested in spirituality and I've always been super creative, and I really had this inner knowledge that I had a different kind of creative ability. I can't sketch, I can't really draw, I don't have more traditional art capabilities. Super into writing. Um, I grew up in the 1900s when magazines were starting to become super popular. And so I went to college and got a degree in magazine journalism, spent a lot of time working in retail through high school, through college. And then eventually after I graduated, I just knew. I mean, did I know at the time that Pisces was in the North Node and it was going to be pushing me towards my destiny and moving to New York? No, I didn't. But that is what was happening in the background. And I had a succession of events that brought me from being sort of this small town girl that had gone to school in Boston and eventually ended up living in New York City where I had always wanted to live. A lot of Kismet events, um, some meat cutes along the way uh brought me into corporate fashion retail. And although I started as an administrative assistant, I grew a career in what I came to know as trend forecasting. So, like I said, I don't have these innate talents in sketching or drawing. So I didn't know how I could work in fashion. Also terrible at math. So definitely was not going to be in buying or planning, but I had this creativity. And so as I saw through working with mentors and people really more on the leadership side of design and product development teams, I fit in really well where there was a chance to tell stories through pulling together silhouettes, pulling together color palettes, um talking about the why, creating these concepts that the designers and the product developers could create product into. I would be doing a lot of trend research, um, going to these giant trend forecasting presentations. I always speak of this woman, Lee Adelcourt, who is a pioneer in trend forecasting uh in all different uh industries, but she would have these seasonal presentations in New York and major cities around the world. And I would watch them and say, this is so fascinating. She's telling the stories of these color palettes and these shapes and these images, and they would make these mini films. But in my head, at the end of the day, I was like, who is watching this from a mass market perspective and getting something from a blade of grass blowing in the wind? Like, how are you gonna know what gene washes are in that year? You know what I mean? Like, there is such a practical side of me that was thinking, like, there's gotta be something more down to earth than this. So I would always have that in the back of my mind. I worked at a specialty retailer for many years, eventually went on to do a director level role at a uh larger uh department store group in the private label division. But I was known for doing trend forecasting really, like uh in my division, but also in all of the buyers from different departments would come in to see what I was talking about. Um, eventually in the January of 2020, I was laid off from my job. You know, ever the ahead of the trends, I was laid off before everyone else in COVID started or in the pandemic and lockdown started to lose their jobs. But I was also going through a really terrible time in 2019 leading up to 2020. Um, I had gotten divorced, I was moving through a lot of personal issues and really losing a lot of my identity. Again, from an astrology perspective, I was going through a 12th house perfection year. Um, during some of the toughest times, I had really started to come back into my faith and started praying. And I just felt that it was time for me to tap into spirituality and wellness in a way that I had sort of neglected that. I had always been really interested. I had had some medical problems in years prior. And I looked into alternate wellness and different healing modalities to really support myself. So it was a nice way for me to come back to that and remember this really supported me in the past. I'm I'm going through this emotional turmoil, I'm going through this personal turmoil. What can I do to really not just feel better, but start to grow into myself and come into myself in a different way? Um I also was really feeling like coming out of that marriage, that there were some so many things that I had maybe put on the back burner that I wanted to continue to explore. So one of the things that I wanted to learn about was tarot. And I signed up for a tarot course and I bought a deck of cards. And once a day I used to pull a card, and let's say maybe four or five out of seven days in a week, I kept pulling the tower.
SPEAKER_03:So my god, that's a lot of days.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:So here I am. I'm like looking it up, and I'm I'm like, oh, this is really troubling. And it was sort of instigating a feeling in me. And I I was like, okay, maybe this is not for right now. And I put it away. And of course, as you would know, like in a couple of months, I would lose my job and we would have the pandemic and lockdown. So for sure, I was being supported by my spirit guides. They were like, hey girl, hold on, because we're gonna start collapsing this tower. So yeah, in intuitive, uh, intuitive abilities tapped in. Uh really from 2020, I had an opportunity to start my own trend forecasting business because everyone was captive at home uh when there were no offices to go to, when people were in lockdowns, when everybody was really keen on what's happening on Zoom and having parties and giant presentations, and we hadn't fatigued from that. I was creating trend decks and I was just really offering them to the public for free and saying, hey, here's my thoughts around where I think all of this could go or how this could influence consumer behaviors. And I wasn't tethered to any organizations. It was just truly my ideas, how I felt, what I thought was going to happen. And um, I was really lucky because both the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal over a period of months picked up on different things that I was talking about and I got some placements in those publications. Now, what's really funny was that I had such a crisis of morality in general. I do have a lot of feelings around the consumerism of fashion and the personal contribution that I believe that I've had in that. And I do want to be more conscious, and I know that we'll be exploring um creatives and designers and people in the fashion industry that have similar feelings and how we're trying to all do better. Um, so here I am, and I'm in the New York Times talking about headbands while the world is on fire and crying in my home because it was like the best of times and the worst of times, truly. Um, but by the time we got to 2023, you know, my business was in a very secure place. I was feeling really good and I had totally transformed. I had had my tower moment and I came out the other side, and it was so beautiful for me. Um but that lingering feeling of contributing to consumerism and just being really disconnected from who I am. It was almost like an inner voice that was saying, what you do is not who you are. There, who are you? You know, it's time to start asking those questions. And so it just started this time in my life where I really wanted to tap in and get into my spiritual wellness to figure out what felt good for me, to be more educated. Um I started to go into more of like a quiet personal space, you know, like really more introspective. I had had a lot of experiences in the second half of 2023, losing a lot of friends, like really feeling like people that weren't aligned with where I was going, just people started to fall out, situations started to fall out, work collaborations started to fall out. So 2024 was what I like to call my year of quiet. It was definitely my three of swords year. Um I just had such a calling to not only learn more about myself and learn more about what was available, but to somehow bring that into my practice. And it was always inside of me. I love to say that I experienced multiple timelines. So there was definitely a future in me like, oh yeah, you're gonna figure this out, but we gotta plant the seed now so that you understand there are steps to move forward, even though in my brain I was trying to figure out, well, how do I get to that future place? And to be honest, I mean, for almost 20 years at that point, I had built a career on guessing what was gonna happen next. So, you know, there was this intuition that was already developed in me, this divination that was already developed in me. But having that anticipation anticipation of like, why aren't we here yet? Why wait, why aren't we in this next timeline already? Has been something that I've worked on and understand that the flow of time is a little bit more um uh you know fluid than I would like for it to be. Um I went back to talk therapy, but I was really doing a lot of spiritual healing modalities. Um I got my certification in meditation instruction and spiritual wellness guidance, but one of the more profound experiences that I had in 2024 was that I met Jasmina. I went in for a reading at a metaphysical store in New Hampshire, and I was looking for answers anywhere I could find them. And I love our meet cute. I think that it's one of the most satisfying experiences that I've had with divination because it was just exactly what I needed in that moment. And I had I had done tarot readings before, and I've I had been seeing an astrologer regularly, and I was really in this space to keep figuring out what else do I want to try, what else do I want to know about? And you did a tea leaf reading for me. And like I said, three of swords year, I was really in this like sort of broken place, knewing, knowing that I was going through transformation and there was so much happening. So you looked in my cup and you said, it's like a candy-coated heart, like a Barbie heart, but wrapped up in an anatomically correct heart. And I just imagined myself like in this broken moment, like all kinds of weepy, and you know, I'm with my friend. And I looked up and I was like, wow, that's like my exact personal brand. Like I was like, there's no way that you couldn't explain to me the relationship between divination and marketing, or relation the relationship between divination and personal branding. Because in that moment, I was like, I would have never come up with that in a million years. And ever since then, I just felt that you saw me and understood exactly what was going on in my energetic field. And I am so glad we're here having this conversation because now I'm gonna put you on the spot and talk about your road that has gotten you to that moment as well.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, that makes me so honored and happy helpful experience for you. Um, Tilly Freedom is so much fun too, because I like it's such a wonderful space for those really specific images to come up where it's like the leaves will just do it for you. Um that was specific as thoughts. Like it was right on. Oh man. Yeah, so my journey for spirit of spirituality started with my grandma when I was just a little tiny chickadee. Um so I am mixed a heritage. I my dad's side is Italian and Irish, my mom's side is uh Romani, and my well, really just my maternal grandmother is Romani. We are mostly the group referred to as the Sinti and her family had settled in northern Germany. And um, yeah, like I mentioned at the beginning of the episode, a lot of people don't realize that gypsy, especially in the US, where the word is appropriated used often as a slur. Um not a lot of people realize that that word refers to an ethnic group and that Roma are not Romanian or Rome Roman, although we can live in those places, and of course we can also be of mixed heritage there too. But um, we are our own thing. We're an Indian diasporic ethnic group. And uh Roma left India around the 10th century and started arriving in Europe around the 1350s and had multiple uh genocides uh upon arriving in Europe, 500 years of slavery in modern day Romania. And when I was a little kid, my grandmother um, you know, she grew up in Nazi Germany, hiding her ethnicity um in plain sight. She was uh she and her family were taken in by a German farmer um who sounds like he would have been a nice guy, but he wasn't, he just didn't like Nazis. He also sucked. Oh yeah, very abusive to them. I hate to speak well of him, so because she was so fervent about it. But um, yeah, so basically, you know, my grandmother came to America by herself. She married um an American soldier who and she didn't speak any English, and um he ended up being a really terrible person as well, unfortunately for her. And so she had suffered a lot by the time I came around, and she had raised her kids in America, she had gone back to Germany with her kids briefly to try to escape her husband and ended up coming back. And um there was a lot of there still is a lot of shame and discomfort in my family, especially the family that lives in Germany about being Romani, especially because in Europe Roma are still highly, heavily persecuted. There's enormous stigma around being Romani and um and Sinti. And there is that stigma in America too, but it's easier to blend in. It's easier to say you're something else. Not a lot of people recognize the names or the features or the accent or other things that might give you away. And my grandmother tried to raise her children um without any cultural context. She didn't want them to know they were a Roma, but she did end up telling everyone in their 20s when they were adults. And my mom and my auntie, the way she put it was that my mom and my auntie were really interested, and my two uncles were not interested. I heard recently from my uncle Bruce, that's not necessarily true. It's more that she told my mom and my aunt a lot about it and didn't really tell the boys that much about it. But from what I understand, my uncle Jack uh rest in peace, um, really did not feel comfortable. Um, and he didn't want his kids to know about their heritage. And it was, you know, it was complicated. But basically, I came around and she saw that it was actually kind of damaging to her kids to not know where they came from and find out as adults who they were. And she also realized that, you know, she's not gonna live forever and her culture was gonna die out if she didn't pass it on to somebody. And um, I was the firstborn in the family. And because my grandmother came from a family of fortune tellers and healers, sometimes we're called drabani, which is like the Romani word for fortune teller, sometimes we're called Shivani, which is a Romani word for like witch or healer, like a healing kind of witch. And um she grew up with that lineage, and a lot of the women in my family were dancers, uh, fortune tellers, healers, a lot of the men in family um were crow charmers and uh performers, but they also a lot of the men, especially around World War I, which was really common for Sinti, men became soldiers, so a lot of them died. And then by the time World War II rolled around, most of the men and family most of the men in the family were dead, and um the women kind of had to make do. And some took to the woods, some uh married into German families, like people a lot of false papers happened, especially in my family. Our name has been changed so many times, I actually have lost track of like the names. And um so my grandmother saw what she felt were indications that I was a born witch, that I was a born Shivani. And um, namely that when I was when she was kicking up her legs, I uh was like three years old and marched over to her and put my hands on her knees and that were very arthritic and painful. And she said that my hands heated up and I pulled the pain out of them and then threw my like did a little flinging motion, threw it out the window and like marched away and like went along playing. Do you have a recollection of this? I have been told that story so many times that I feel like I remember it, but I don't actually think I remembered it. Because I remember the first time she told me, she was like, Do you remember this? And I was like, But it's been repeated so much that now I think I remember. Wow, baby Jez. Just baby Jez, just toddling around. And it was always so normal in my family. Like I wasn't really raised to be like, Oh, you're very special. It's just like, okay, great, you can do this. This happens to be the family job. Let's train you up and see if you're good. Like it was just very matter of fact. Um, I was very, very much taught to be humble about it and not uh not talk about it too much. And um, especially because uh she, I mean, it's not like it was good for me to tell anyone who we were either. One of the first things my grandmother told me when she was explaining who who she was, who I am, just don't tell anyone you're a gypsy. And um that's a word that she used really casually. It was a word she knew for herself in English. And a lot of Romani families grow up this way, especially the older folks will use the word gypsy. If you're more old school, more traditional, you might grow up with the word gypsy. So I'm one of those people, I would never ever police the way a Romani person identifies. Like you can call yourself whatever you want, baby. Um, but like if you're not Roma or not from a related group to which that word has been applied, you don't need to use it, um, you know, but let people identify how they want. But I'm I will use gypsy among my family, my super close friends. If I start to feel comfortable with you, I'll start to call myself a gypsy in front of you. But I don't want like people I don't know calling me a gypsy. Roma, Romani, it's perfect. But um yeah, so basically I was taught to do this work. My training started when I was four. Um, we started with dream interpretation. All of this is covered a lot in the book that I wrote with Paulina, Secrets of Romani Fortune Telling, because Paulina also comes from um a much more traditional family. She is not mixed, she was not assimilated into American culture really much at all. Um, but she had a similar story in that when you're born into a fortune telling family, you start getting trained up, especially if you show any kind of ability. And you start when you're basically as soon as you're putting sentences together. And so. Um we started with dream divination. We started with palmistry. She taught me how to talk to plants and connect with animals. And she taught me a lot about like how to respectfully enter a forest. Like, how do you connect with your spirits? How do you talk to God? And for her, God was everywhere and everything. It was nature. And while she was, you know, made sure I was baptized because the assimilation, you want to be ostensibly Catholic at least. Um really, I grew up with a much more kind of folk um practice uh kind of spirituality with her. And you know, my dad's side of the family, my auntie Susie is super psychic. I feel like that side is very Catholic. Um, well, like when I say very Catholic, they a lot of them identify as Catholic, but they're spiritual in their own way.
SPEAKER_02:But I and I think that's something we'll probably explore on the show, because that is a question I get a lot is how can I be a woman of Catholicism and also one of spirituality?
SPEAKER_03:So oh my god, yeah, I can't so interesting. Um, and I don't identify as Catholic, although I do find it interesting to like I think of it as a practice that my ancestors have used. And so I have a rosary, I've got a crucifix, but I I love a sacred heart, but I'm not like a practicing Catholic. It's I see it more as like cultural almost.
SPEAKER_02:Culturally Catholic is one of my favorite phrases.
SPEAKER_03:A love of Mary.
SPEAKER_01:Not a love of Mary.
SPEAKER_03:And uh so yeah, I when I was like 12, um, I started doing this work professionally. And because um I was growing up also in the 1900s, um, it wasn't trendy in New Hampshire. It wasn't cool to do to be a fortune teller. I grew up in a very conservative part of the Northeast. And um, so most of my first clients were horses, which I used to talk about in Secrets of Romani fortune telling. And um, so that was interesting to do readings on horses and figure out why they were lame, why they were angry. But then suddenly I was getting, you know, more parties, more opportunities, and I had a very challenging childhood in a lot of ways. Like I loved my family, and also like there's a lot of intergenerational trauma, and everyone was very complicated and things were hard. And so I peaced out when I was n 18 and you know, went to college and got married ill-advisedly and um and you know, basically left and lived in Ireland, lived in Florida, lived in New York, and then eventually came back to um New Hampshire. But I had when I was married, I had a kind of crisis of faith where I was with a very abusive person who initially seemed like he was really um, you know, interested and respectful of our cultural differences, my background. And then it, you know, with abuse comes a certain kind of brainwashing. And one of the places he focused was on my spirituality, trying to like break me of that. And um especially because I had such a challenging childhood, he kept saying things like, Oh, well, you know, if if you're a spirit and your gods were really there for you, don't you think they would have saved you from this? But what's interesting is that Roma don't actually believe in shit like that. Like we know life is hard. So, like, we're not there's no deity coming to save you. Like, you gotta collaborate and be scrappy and listen to the signs and sure, like pray and do your work and everything. So that didn't fully work on me because like he was coming at it from the wrong angle. And um, yeah, and why would I let, you know, uh someone take that away from me? But it did give me a couple of dark years where I was just really um not sure what I believed for a minute. But then it was like as soon as I connected with my grandmother in person again, I was just like, he has no idea what he's talking about. Like I just like I felt like I touched something ancient when I am with her. And it helped me figure out over time, you know, how to leave and how to get my life back. But I had always done other work, and I was raised very much with the idea that it's like, this is the work we've always done. I'm gonna teach you to do it since you're excited about it, and it'll always serve you. But you can do whatever you want. Whereas Paulina, you know, she was not given that choice and she was only allowed to tell fortunes. And she has her own fascinating story, which people should listen to on our podcast from Manasan and also the LA Times podcast foretold. Um, but I always did this work. I also taught um middle school, I taught college English and writing, I taught all these different uh things. I've worked as an art model, I've worked as a barista, I've like worked as a dancer, like I've done a lot, but this was something that always was with me. And when I got really, really sick in 2020, uh, the first wave of COVID, um, I was in the hospital with an ovarian cyst rupture on March 15th, 2020. Wow with COVID. And um I had for a while, uh, my ability to read and write was taken from me when I got sick a second time with another virus. And the only thing I could do was tell fortune. I couldn't teach anymore, I couldn't really read anything longer than a text. And um, a lot of my uh physical ability was taken from me. My I'm still, you know, walking with a cane often, but I was like bedridden. And that was the only way I could really sustain myself was through fortune telling. And I just kept thinking of what my grandmother was saying, like this is always gonna be there when you need it, and when I couldn't do anything else, it was there. And that's when I really dealt, I got into this work so deeply because I was at a very difficult point. My mother died, my auntie died, my uncle died, and uh then my grandmother died um also in that window, too, um, which was a huge thing for me. And um I was just so immersed in death and sickness and pain, and like I had to turn to these uh invisible forces that had always shaped my life and just fully relinquish and surrender because I just there wasn't anything I could do. I felt so um helpless and not just like emotionally, but like how am I gonna make a living? Like, how am I gonna how am I gonna make it? And um, but it slowly r has revealed itself to me that I should be doing this more than just like the thing I do on the side, or that I'm, you know, spiritual as like an interesting backstory, but I'm focusing on X, Y, or Z. I still write and I'm creative and I do all these things that I love to do, but and I consider them a big part of my career. But I'm understanding now that um it's not just that I'm supposed to be doing this work, but also the activism around Romani culture and awareness is a huge part of it because people love this part of our culture. Roma have influenced fortune telling and so many spiritual practices so many ways, are so appropriated from. And people don't really usually just know better at all. It's not, it's not often even with malice, especially in the US. Um, and sometimes it is, sometimes there's a lot of racism, a lot of bullshit that I deal with, but um, and I think that this is actually part of what I'm supposed to be doing is actually be talking about being Romani. And uh, because a lot of fortune tellers in the US who are Roma, who are doing this as a survival trade, um, are also not safe to have their identity disclosed a lot of times. I've let that cat out of the bag a long time ago. I have enough relative privilege that like I I want to try to do a positive thing by sharing this. And um yeah, that's just that's my intention with my work and also the work I do with Paulina too.
SPEAKER_02:And you know, I want to go back to this meet cube because to me, I don't maybe I did not give enough reference reverence in that moment, but where I was at in terms of knowing that I wanted to bring spirituality into my business and I wanted this to be a greater part of my life and what my contribution is in this lifetime, um, part of my life's work. Um when we met and when I became aware of the breadth of work that you do, uh, not just fortune telling, but in reading your book and becoming more aware of the educational platform that you provide talking about the Romani and the persecution. And it really opened my mind to this complete, you know, binary that's existing, where there are people that come from ancestral lineages, when there's there's you know um practices that are coming from certain groups, and yet we're seeing on social media people just flippantly doing tarot reads or doing astrological reads where they're basing their their uh reads in like a fear-mongering kind of way, right? There's such an interesting thing that's happening, and I was kind of taken back to this space of there needs to be more education. We need to tie kind of take a pause in terms of wanting to know the future and go backwards a little bit, understand where all of these things actually come from, give a platform to the voices that that should be having them and have more of a collective conversation and then get into the really fun stuff too. You know, this is really cool. It's a really amazing gift to have going back to all of these people that I've I've spoken with or that sort of have come into my web to secretly whisper to me that, you know, they they are seeing ghosts and they talk to them, you know, always have, and who should they go speak to? But you know, you were so inspirational to me in that moment that there has to be a better way. And coming from a world of fashion where I've participated in such a contrarian way to what people might think of as how you would participate in fashion, you know, my my career was never about luxury, it was never about trying to get into that aspirational top of the pyramid. It was always this should be something that all people should feel. How do I tell these trend stories? How do I tell these forecasts in a way that everyone gets it and feels like they're involved? And for me, you know, I love astrology. So as a Gemini moon, I always say, like, I need to be able to take it apart and put it back together, but explain to you how to put it back together. That's how I know I've mastered it. And I think that I never wanted anyone to ever feel like they were being intentionally left out of the conversation. I feel like you're the same way when you do fortune telling, it never feels like a way where I'm leaving and I feel like there's no hope. I feel desperate, I feel like I'm out of control in my life. There's a something so gentle and caring about about the way that you deliver even the maybe toughest of messages. And I mean, do you feel that that's maybe one of your gifts as well, one of your very human, sentient gifts that you have?
SPEAKER_03:Uh thank you so much. I'm glad it feels that way. Because yeah, I mean, my grandmother was so big on like, we're not here to scare people, we're here to help people. And don't give anyone a problem without a solution. And I always love that. I think that's just good advice in general. Yes. Um, and yeah, so I really like I like to um have an opportunity to problem solve with people. I think of it as an opportunity for us to sit down and see like, what are you carrying that feels too heavy? And how can you walk out of here feeling lighter and having some clarity? I also really love helping people feel like they have the ability to discern themselves, um, which is I why I often ask people questions and encourage them to share during these sessions, because it's like just because I see something doesn't mean that it makes sense to someone. I've had the experience multiple times where I've said something to someone like I mean, this is just the example that's coming up right now. It's really funny, but um, I was reading someone's tea leaves and I saw a Christmas tree on fire, and I knew it had to do with this person's marriage. And I was like, Oh, yeah, and I'm I'm glad I got the Barbie heart. And um yeah, and they were just like, Oh, I don't know, I don't know what that could be. And I was like, Okay, well, I feel like the answer is here with the Christmas tree on fire. And she was like, I'm sorry, babe, I don't know what you're talking about. And then I'm hearing my own spirits being like, She's not listening, you have to keep saying it, you can't let it go. So I'm like, I'm so sorry. But um, they're saying you do know what it is.
SPEAKER_00:And um stop lying.
SPEAKER_03:Like, Christmas, you're not father. Like, oh god. And then finally her friend kind of hits her and she's like, Didn't he tell you this like insert horrible thing when you were looking at buying a Christmas tree farm? And she was like, Oh, that and I'm like, that is not gonna change. You gotta go. That's why. Wow, but it's like it's very weird because just because I knew the Christmas tree on fire doesn't mean she knew. And I think her friend was probably there for a reason because my spirits were so frustrated. And why of course he would block out the worst thing that happened with the Christmas tree. Of course he would purposefully block. Right. And so, like, I really and you know, we didn't, I didn't just leave it there. I didn't like drop the mic. I was like, okay, here's what we do from here. And then I the rest of the cut made sense, and she felt like she was leaving with some clarity about her question. And I really like that. I love problem solving. I like helping people understand their own lives, and I like giving them like the driving wheel back and just being like, cool, like you've got this, like, because ultimately, like nothing that I can say to anyone makes any sense or has any value if you haven't in some way also processed it enough and come to your own realizations around it. And so my my thought is that I'm I'm helping people put together their own puzzle.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and it's it's a a gift of intuition, a gift of divination, but it's a a gift of human conversation and human sensitivity and empathy. And I I just think that that's such a special, beautiful, maternal way that you read, and and it's it's quite lovely. And I I recognize that in your voice when when I started to to meet with you, is that I have always aspired to have that level of communication and connection with any end person that's that's attached to my work, whether it's through styling or trend forecasting or anything, that I'm not sitting in the ivory tower speaking down to them from on high. I'm sitting next to them, like, okay, let's look at the work. And are we getting to the same answer together? Are you understanding? Are you feeling empowered that you can take this into the world and and tell stories to your end clients and to your end consumer? Because ultimately, you know, whether we're we're talking about divination, fortune telling, creative work, fashion, it's all about enhancing our experience as humans. And I think there's nothing better than to sit with someone and make it the best human experience that they can have.
SPEAKER_03:Oh my gosh, I so agree. Like that's it's something I really love about the work I do because I do really genuinely want to help people find the thing that's going to bring them where they need to go. Like, I think that's my favorite thing. I get so excited when I see people doing the things they really love. I love it when clients reach out to me and tell me if they followed through with this or that, like what happened. Um, someone I read for recently, like their his spirits were just like, you have to sell your book. Like within a few weeks, he got an agent. And like he, I'm just like so happy. So cool.
SPEAKER_02:I adore this. I also love that I think that we both have extremely boisterous spirits attached to us that are like, um, excuse me, but like in a very loud voice, like, do this now, please. Oh, absolutely. Next time I won't say please. I'm gonna make it really easy for you to understand this confirmation is for you. Ah, I love that.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. And so I mean, I'm just so excited to be diving into this podcast with you because I love the idea of exploring these topics that we care so much about. I mean, wellness and beauty and fashion have so much to do with spirituality. They are how people show their spirituality. Um, whether you're actively or purposefully participating in glamour magic or actually thinking about having a talisman or not, it's just how culture is. Like all of these things are so interwoven, the way we care for our bodies, our homes, like the way we look out in the world, our armor or our adornment, all of it can be so magical and often does come from a really magical source. And it's cool to think about how do we do this in a way that feels good and is mindful and respectful, and you know, where people are hopefully like fairly compensated for, you know, as much as we possibly can.
SPEAKER_02:Listen, no, I think I think that's so important. And I love this idea that we're talking about, you know, going into that thought of trend that we were speaking at the beginning of the podcast and and why this feel why spirituality feels like it's trending right now. But actually, it's part of something where we're living in a world that feels so unsafe. And there's so many people that feel detached from understanding what's happening next. And they are seeking answers because they're frantic and there's so many timelines converging and there's so much shakeup. And I hope that we give that moment of pause to say that things don't have to be this way, that we can really step back, that we can look and grow our community, that we can rethink the way that we've approached certain practices or the way that we behave or the way that we see other groups. And we can also see the potential of what's out there. And I think that this is such a transformational moment that we can offer others and sit with them through the pod and sit next to them and say, Do you understand this? Does this feel good? You know, do you want to do this with us? And I love this opportunity. So thank you for doing this with me. Music by DL. Artwork by Lane Friends. Follow us at Immaterial World Pod on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube. Visit our website at www.immaterial-world.com. Or send us an email at immaterialworldpod at gmail.com.
SPEAKER_03:Get a copy of Secrets of Romani fortune telling by Paulina Stevens and Justina Vontila wherever you get books. Roma are a diasporic ethnic group originally from India, also known by the slur or misnomer gypsies.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you for being part of our immaterial world. Welcome to the immaterial world.