Immaterial World
A dedicated and transparent space to re-center how we explore glamour, fashion, magic, wellness, culture, and everything else we love, together.
hosted by Jessica Richards and Jezmina Von Thiele
Immaterial World
IT’S GIVING GLAMOUR (MAGIC) with Katelan Foisy
Katelan Foisy is a multidisciplinary artist and writer whose work blends vintage aesthetics with mysticism, symbolism, and modern narrative.
Renowned for her mixed media art, photography, and design, she moves fluidly between the worlds of fine art, music, fashion, and esoteric culture.
In this episode, Katelan talks about her prolific career, creating worlds through art, sound, and maximalist design; how to bring manifestation magic to the mundane with daily acts of intention; divination and mirror scrying; and of course, her favorite secrets in using glamour magic.
For more about Katelan visit:
Substack: www.katelanfoisy.substack.com
Marketplace: www.katelanfoisy.com/market
Instagram: @katelanfoisy
Hosted by Jessica Richards and Jezmina Von Thiele
For more about Jessica visit: www.the12th.house and Instagram: @jessicaxrich
For more about Jezmina visit: www.jezminavonthiele.com and Instagram: @jezmina.vonthiele
Music and editing by DIA LUNA
Instagram: @dialunamusic
Artwork by Lane Friend
Instagram: @friendlane
Welcome to Immaterial World, a dedicated and transparent space to recenter how we explore glamour, magic, culture, and everything else we love together.
SPEAKER_05:Material world material world.
SPEAKER_01:Renowned for her mixed media art, photography, and design, she moves fluidly between the worlds of fine art, music, fashion, and esoteric culture. I am so excited about our guest today, Jasmina. I know that Caitlin is a close friend of yours who I had not met, but when I went and looked at her work, it is so in alignment with my personal aesthetic. So I'm super excited to talk to her today about all of her inspiration, all of her work, all of the places that it exists. But it really speaks to 1996, okay? I was 12 years old. I was going through my first house perfection year. And that year, the music video for Tonight Tonight by The Smashing Pumpkins came out. And I looked at that and I was like, that's what I want my aesthetic to be. I didn't even know what that meant. I just really knew that's what I wanted my aesthetic to be. That was the same year too of Romeo and Juliet with Claire Danes and Leonardo DiCaprio. And I was like, yes, this look is so for me. And it has become my aesthetic. It has become my personal brand. So I know Jasmina, we have collaborated on our work and our artwork for our podcast, but yeah, this is really a Bureau L too.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I can't wait. Uh, Caitlin, we are so happy to have you here. We're going to talk about glamour magic and art magic and everything, everything in between. Um first let's start off. Um, would you like to introduce yourself to the audience for anyone who might not be familiar with your work?
SPEAKER_00:My name is Caitlin Feisey, and um I am a multimedia artist. I uh probably know my work best from the Smashing Pumpkins. And um I've also the illustrator for the Hoodoo Tarot and the Sivil's Oraculum. Um I work in many different mediums. I love photography. I love graphic design. Um, I do a lot of the products for Madam Zuzu's, uh Billy Corgan's tea house in Highland Park. And um I also do a lot of merchandise and uh visuals for bands and tours.
SPEAKER_01:That is so cool. Caitlin, one thing that I love about your work is I feel like you're creating worlds. Like it's not like, oh, look at my art, it exists here in this one place. It's like please step into this environment that I've created, it this world of creativity, which is so amazing. How did you get here? What was your path?
SPEAKER_00:So I feel like I was always in a place, even from childhood, where I wanted to live in this magical world. Um, when I grew up in Massachusetts, I grew up believing in fairies and building little houses for fairies and filling buttercups with honey and you know, trying to feed them. And I also lived in a very like rural place, and you know, there was a lot of nature. And um, you know, my parents were they knew that I was artistic, so they were just like, just let her do what she wants. My mom's like at a very early age, she was like, you loved mixing patterns, even if they clashed, and she would you she was like, you would just tell me, no, I love the way it looks, I love the way these colors feel. Um coded. I know. No, it so is. Um, and so I think that's where it all started. I know that I got my first tarot deck when I was about 12 years old, and I feel like those images also just sort of fed into that. Um, you know, everything about my world was sort of from, you know, either my grandmother, who I spent a lot of time with, both my grandparents. Um, and my grandmother would do these things, and she had her own aesthetic and she had her own world that she built too. Um, so I feel like a lot of this is sort of, you know, ancestral family, but also tying into what you were saying, you know, with the Tonight Tonight uh video. It's uh George Millet. Um, I was very into silent film very early on. Um I was very into Nosferatu uh and a lot of different things that just sort of pulled my curiosity. And um so living in a small town for so long, I just used that to kind of like create things. Um I wanted to, you know, create images, so I had to build props and create my own little worlds there. Um, and then as I got older and went to college and moved and um it started to form, but it was never quite solid. I I feel like in the last maybe 15 years, I've really just fully kind of stepped into my aesthetic and what I do and how I want to be perceived, but not only that, but the worlds that I want to create. So I think as a person who grew up, you know, reading lots of books and and sort of getting into art and just gobbling up anything that I could and just being so into music, into art, um, into the magical aspects of things. Um, because I I didn't like what the mundane world always had to offer. I was like, this is not okay. Um let me create a little space so that you know I can exist. Um so it was a lot of that. I was, you know, very influenced by Patty Smith. Um, I was very influenced by Jim Carroll, and I was very fortunate at a young age to have met a lot of these people, and they were very kind to me. And they, you know, Jim Carroll would look at my my um my journals, and he was like, you know, you're a really good writer. And I I didn't know I was a good writer, but that aspect of it just really created and allowed me to flourish and really allowed me to find a style and find different styles because I didn't want to be boxed into anything. Um, which, you know, I think for a lot of people, you know, growing up, it's like, oh, well, you find one job and you do that, and that's what you do for the rest of your life, or you get into school, you find one style, and that's what you do for the rest of your life. And you can't sway away from that. Or if you do, it has to be under a different name, or it has to be under this. And I just wanted everything to be under an umbrella. I was like, I don't, I don't have the bandwidth for that. Like, just give me an umbrella and it can have, I can have different things, you know, all around me creating this. Um, I know I went enough into a bunch of different worlds and that that one explanation, but I hope I was clear enough.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I I love that. I love that you're really walking us through, you know, how you're just not limited by anything in your artistic sphere and you're really creating these environments. I think that that's so beautiful and it sounds like you've always been so influenced. I do want to go back though to talking about getting your first tarot deck at 12. Well, how did that happen? You know, what what happened for you there? Because you also read tarot and have designed decks. So this is this is really a world opener there as well.
SPEAKER_00:So it's interesting because I originally I started off with like tea leaves. And then um a friend of mine, I think we're in Cape Cod or around Provincetown, Massachusetts, and we went into this store and it was the mystic tree of life. And and my friend that was with me, she bought me the deck. Um, so you know, it was a really sweet gesture because I would just go around, I would read coffee grounds, I would read, you know, tea leaves and and and things like that. But um, she was like, You might be good with this, you like pictures.
SPEAKER_05:And so I was like, okay.
SPEAKER_00:That's so sweet. I know it's like you like pictures here. Um, and it ended up being, you know, it just this language that I felt I really knew, you know, when you look at the images on a tarot deck, and the thing is, I had I had played around with um with playing cards, you know, before that. So, you know, I just wasn't used to the images on on the tarot deck. I, you know, I knew the diamonds, I knew that, you know, the clubs, I knew that. But um when I saw the symbolism in the tarot, it just spoke in another language to me, and I just felt like I understood it right away. Um, you know, the way that two cards can either be interacting with each other or not interacting with each other can tell you so much. The way that it's set up almost like a storyboard, that spoke to me because as a visual person, as a visual artist, you know, even looking at, you know, films and movies, when you see that, you see the storyboards, you know, you can you can kind of visualize them. And that's what the tarot was for me. It was these storyboards, and each card told its own story, but when you put them together, they told an even in more depth um story. And that story would help someone out or it would give them a map. And I really liked that aspect of it. So it was something that, you know, just really resonated with me. And when I did get my my first deck too, I um I ended up sleeping, you know, putting it under my pillow to sleep with. And then every day I would just take a card and I would visualize myself walking through the card. And that's kind of how I really just sort of learned everything. Um, and I did it just for friends for a very long time. And then when I was about, don't quote me on this. I want to say maybe 22, maybe 23, I started working at a botanica in the Bronx. And then I was just reading um full time. Um, and it was amazing because, you know, just putting yourself in that and just meeting so many people, and I could just share with them those stories and even point out on the cards to them, be like, and this is why, you know, I'm saying this, and see how these cards relate to each other. This is why, you know, this is coming up. And so it it it was just this. I I know I've said this a couple of times, but you know, it was just an a language that I could just really understand.
SPEAKER_02:And you learned in your Romani family tradition too, right? Like I always assumed that about you.
SPEAKER_00:But that was more playing cards. Oh, yeah. So my my yeah, so my grandmother had decks of of playing cards, and so but it was like the tarot deck, that's when I saw like the pictures on it. I was always like into you know, the playing cards with like the queens and the kings and the you know, and just the imagery on that, but it was like something really unlocked with the tarot images.
SPEAKER_02:Just out of curiosity, did your grandmother have any opinion about you reading tarot? Because mm, yeah, I would love to know.
SPEAKER_00:It was weird, like so. The thing with her is that she just sort of hid everything. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:As you do when you're a persecuted minority.
SPEAKER_00:So it was just like one of those things where it's just like, oh, she's doing that thing again. It will pass. But it's really funny because it's like, you know, it's it's like a part of it. And then, you know, and at the same time, you know, it's I think at the time when people are just trying to like acclimate to like their their neighborhoods and stuff, they're just like, oh yeah, I'm just gonna look at this. No, like then the next minute's like, no, I wasn't doing that.
SPEAKER_02:Like, yeah, assimilation is a bitch. Yeah, that's so interesting because like when I I also was raised reading playing cards, just for listeners who might not know, Roma are a diasporic ethnic group, also um originally from India, also known as gypsies, technically the racial slur. Um, so most of us prefer Roma, um, not Romanian, it's a different thing. And um I also learned on playing cards, and my grandmother said something so similar to what you said when I was like, okay, tarot is more popular. I think I should be using this for clients. She was like, Oh, you already know how to do it. Like you, because you you read cards, so it's just this, it's the same language. And I was just like, Oh, okay. And sometimes I would bounce things off of her, but mostly she was just-I mean, then I don't think it's actually a one-to-one playing cards tarot at all. Yeah, but there was something about like having that basis in cardamancy and understanding symbols and just being like, You're good. Like, yeah, you're good. Like, you're doing your thing. Thank you for for that aside. I was curious.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because like other family members were like, Oh, what is she doing? You know, and so it was a very weird, you know, just sort of strange thing where some family members were like looking down on it, and then the other family members were fine with it. So, and I think that's tension in any family where it's like, you know, these two different sets of opinions and definitely defin different generations in which they grew up with things.
SPEAKER_02:Can relate, yeah. And the way that you create worlds, going back to Jess's first question, I mean, you have uh home good line and interior design, you have album covers, you have tarot, like, and I really love that you don't want to put yourself in an aesthetic box. Um, but I'm curious about like when you are trying to describe what your aesthetic is and like how like what is for you. Are there certain things that you look at when you're considering a client or considering like a you know a new thing you want to come out with? Like, how do you know what lights you up and what direction you're drawn in?
SPEAKER_00:So, I mean, obviously, I am very pattern-oriented. Like, I love patterns and patterns. Um, they're throughout my house. Um, but it it really depends. So, a lot of the stuff that I worked on with the pumpkins, it usually has a certain aesthetic. And usually Billy has a very concrete idea, or not concrete, but like, you know, he has a good idea of what he wants, and we discuss, you know, kind of what style it should be in, and we kind of go from there. Um, so it really depends on the client. Um, I've had other clients where they, you know, send me samples of an aesthetic that they like, you know, maybe it's like a vintage thing or something like that. And they're like, is there any way that you can kind of like do this but not totally copy it? You know, like and I'm like, okay, yeah, let me let me take a shot at this. Um, so I have a lot of different styles, which can be very confusing. You know, I understand that I am a person that wears many different hats. Um, the cool thing about having many different styles, but also just being me, is that uh a lot of people, even if they see a style that's different, they were like, I automatically knew it was yours. It just has this feeling of you. And that's something that I've always sort of aspired to, especially when I was in college, I went to Pratt Institute. Um, one of my teachers, Rudy Gutierrez, he um he was telling me, he was like, as long as your work feels like you, people will know it's yours. And I really just resonated with that because I was like, okay, like I don't want to be boxed into one style, you know, I want to do a number of different things. I want my home to be beautiful because I work here and I'm here all the time. And it it needs to have that aesthetic, it needs to feel calming, it needs that. Um, but uh, you know, with work that is, you know, sometimes I'm doing pen and ink, sometimes I'm doing art deco, sometimes I'm doing Victoriana, sometimes I I'm, you know, doing a painting. So my main focus is just to make some part of it feel like me.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, I so heavily relate to this. That's why I'm smiling and nodding so much. You know, like working in the fashion space, everyone is so serious and they they like a certain sort of clean aesthetic. And I always say, you can recognize when I have touched something because it's gonna be fucking whimsical and it's gonna be fucking joyful. So I love that. I I really love that. You know, I think that it's so interesting too because you're working in these spaces that even though you're describing your aesthetic as being sort of more specific and more connected to who you are, they're at scale. I mean, you're creating merchandise, you're creating, you know, tea house environments, you're, you know, designing so much that has to somehow feel good to a large audience. And I love that it's so authentically connected, not just to you, but to your roots and magic and like all of your practices. So, how do you translate those sort of ideas into a larger commercial kind of space without abandoning, you know, the authenticity of it?
SPEAKER_00:So I feel very blessed because with working with Billy, like we have so many of the same ideas and aesthetics that it's very easy. Um and, you know, he is a person that really thinks outside the box. So in that aspect, it's it's very easy to work with him, it's very easy to, you know, kind of combine our skills and and create something really beautiful. It's also terrifying. Um, when I did uh may, it was really terrifying because I knew that this album was gonna go out to the masses. And when I'm in it and when I'm working on it, I don't think I realize how big something is because I'm like, I just want to make my friend happy. Like I'm just that's what that's what I want to do. Um, and then it gets into the realistic part where you're like, okay, I've gotta, you know, go over these these lyrics and make sure everything is okay and the spacing is okay, and there's no um uh there's nothing I need to change or there, there's no mistakes or anything like that. And then I, you know, immediately tailspin into a downward spiral. And um, but it's it's one of those things where it's like, okay, I think if I just don't think of it on a massive scale, it's easier for me. Um and if I just think of it as okay, I am working with, you know, my friend or my client, and I am creating something that represents them. And, you know, this is in, you know, my style. So of course, like it's it's gonna be certain color palettes or it's gonna be something, you know, some type of line work or something like that that has my my aesthetic. But uh with that, I kind of have to just get out of my head and not realize how big it's gonna be. Because if I think about that, then I just start uh kind of getting consumed in the details, or what if I get a m make a mistake? Or, you know, what if I do this? So for me, it really is about just being in that moment and just being like, okay, what does my my client want? And you know, how can I best represent that? And uh just putting that out there. I mean, it's very interesting how I even got, you know, in this whole business is, you know, I went to Pratt for illustration and uh communications design, and uh, you know, immediately out of school, one of my my biggest clients was the Grammy Awards, and I was terrified. And it was one of those things where it was just like, okay, you gotta take yourself out of this. And afterwards I was kicking myself, I was like, maybe the work wasn't good enough. And I was like, they wouldn't have accepted if it wasn't good enough.
SPEAKER_02:Like, I don't know what I'm doing, but apparently that never left my brain, so uh, that's I mean, it's powerful um to be finding a way to work through the fear of being seen. Yeah, you and I have had many conversations about this. Oh many. And this is a, you know, the question I wanted to ask next was about what's the intersection for you for, you know, fashion, music, art, and magic. But I also imagine a certain amount of your spiritual practices and um, you know, artistic practices also help you navigate that fear of being seen. So that's that's a sort of bonus add-on. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:You navigate that too. It definitely is because you know, I I am accepting the fact that, you know, like not everyone is gonna like what I do. And there are always people that are gonna think that, you know, it could have been different, it could have been whatever. Um so it can be hard being seen because you have to be very thick-skinned, and I'm not very thick skinned. Very sensitive. Little babies. Um but you know, I do feel that when I am, you know, dressed in fashion that I like, when I am in my power, because fashion, you know, can it it is very powerful. It's your essence. It's you know, so sometimes I'll be like, okay, I haven't literally left the house in a couple days. Like I'm still in the same slip. Let me just put on a really nice robe like wear. Now I'm fashion, you know, like um, but it's one of those things that really boosts me. It's and you know, like I said, too, with my home, like it's one of those things that I am in a much happier space and able to kind of think clearly and freely when I feel good about myself. So I'm dressed in something that I like, or when I have a good workspace and it, you know, it's surrounded by plants and things that I love. And so I feel much more, you know, in myself. Um and you know, and even with like the practices, I feel like when I'm creating art, I'm almost in a meditative state anyway, because it's like I'm just creating these things and I'm putting them together. And um, especially when I do drawings and I'm kind of like piecing them together, you know, on my computer, that just puts me into this really meditative state because I'm just like, okay, you know, it's like these pieces, it's it's where do they fit? Where can I create this design? Um, so uh for me, my uh spiritual practice and also uh spiritual bass, I'm gonna talk about spiritual bass for like the rest of my life because whenever I'm like really just in that space and or working on a very big corporate project where there's like a lot of um, you know, energy going into it and there's a lot of emails coming in, and I'm really overwhelmed because it's like I've got to have answers, and I don't quite know the answers, and you know, I've got to figure out the answers. Um and then very tight deadlines. Uh I did one project recently where in two weeks I had to do 22 pieces of art and um it was also there was writing involved, and I think that ended up being like a hundred pages. Um, and I had to design that and I had to do all of these things that were all parts of these these projects that I was working on. And so it was really hard for me. And I was like, I feel like I'm kind of losing myself. And you know, my partner's he's like, You should go out for a walk. And I was like, I don't want to go for a walk. It's like I want to sit here and look at my computer and be mad, like that I can't figure something out. But you know, he was getting me out of the house, which is which is very good. And um and then I realized I was like, I gotta take a spiritual bat because I am just you know in my head right now and a little too in my head, and I need some clarity and I need to come back to these like multiple projects that I'm working on and you know be able to kind of go in between them. So uh, you know, I am a huge fan of those, and I feel like that, you know, sets everything in motion. I'm also just a huge fan of, you know, drinking tea and just you know having plant allies and just being like, okay, I know that when I drink um, you know, roibos, I I always pronounce it wrong. So if I do, I'm sorry. Um tea, I feel very like in my my space, in my body. I know that if I drink mint tea, that I'm automatically like more energized. Um, you know, and if I drink a combination of hibiscus and mint and rosemary and cinnamon, then I know that I'm going to be calmed down and I'm going to be ready to go. And that was a recipe that um my friend um at Deer Woman um I love them. I know. And she gave me, so Jessica gave me that. And um so I know that when I'm eating certain things, um, you know, just like my mom told me that when she was pregnant with me and she ate strawberries every single day. And I'm obsessed with strawberries. So I know that if I eat some strawberries, I'm automatically just gonna feel more in myself too, and I can get back to that work that needs to be done.
SPEAKER_02:That's beautiful. Because I mean, it's such intentional self-care. I mean, you can depending on how you feel personally, as a you know, anyone listening, you can dress it up as magic, dress it down, as taking good attentive care of yourself. That in itself is a beautiful devotional practice.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And I love that you're talking about all of this and that Jez said intention because that was my next question. I've heard another interview where you were talking about speaking into your coffee every morning. I also do this. I love it. Just that thought, and I was really imagining, you know, you starting your day that way and having that level of intention that early in the day. I imagine that you're incorporating that into every practice. So although you're calling yourself a little baby that doesn't want to be perceived, you know, I imagine you're really going into everything that you do with just a level of intention and wanting to set things in motion and visualizing how that that outcome is going to be. So would you consider that a practice within itself as well?
SPEAKER_00:I do. I mean, I think that anytime I get a chance to make magic out of like the mundane, I'm trying to. Um, you know, I've been, it's been on my mind a lot because, you know, there's so many times like we go to work or, you know, and I've worked many different jobs, you know. So I I've worked in offices, I've worked in retail, I've worked um, you know, behind a copy machine, you know, and and I've done a lot of different jobs. And I feel like, you know, sometimes they can feel like they're sucking the life out of you, and you're just like, oh, I don't want to be here. But then if you incorporate these tiny things, it just makes the day go by. And it just really enhances it. And you're like, okay, so now this is a little bit more fun. This is, you know, I can kind of get my my head in this space to um to work. And, you know, and it's funny too, because like anytime we're working on something, it's like we always have to stop ourselves from getting like, you know, just like in our way too on our heads. And um, and you know, like I love everything that I do and everyone that I work with. So, you know, like I I work with a bunch of different people, um, but it's uh it can be really hard. So I think it's important to have those little practices. I think it's really important, um, you know, just to even, you know, I like to spray 4711. My grandmother used to wear 4711, and I like to spray it when I'm like also in my head a little bit too much, and I'm just like, okay, this reminds me of my grandmother, and you know, it's also cleansing me, and I can kind of get back in that space. So just little things. I think, you know, when people think of magic, they're thinking of like full-on rituals a lot of the time, and they don't realize that there's like tiny practices that you can do. You know, you can look in the mirror, like you can say a miracle is gonna happen today, you know, and that's something that like you know, been saying for a really long time, but you know, it's just these little intentions. You can, you know, pull a card, um, you can do bibliomancy, you can do tiny things just to kind of guide you. And you can even do color walks where it's like you walk down the street and you choose a color, and then you just try to focus on everything that's that's color, and it just gets you out of that space. So these are like small acts of magic, and some of the biggest transformations are just from shifting the energy. So you take a different route somewhere, and it's like you've completely shifted the energy from what it was. So I, you know, I really, really believe in the power of small, um, small things.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Love, love. Yeah, that's so beautiful. I am wondering too, like, what kind of tools are you using for your own divination and healing at the moment? I'm sure that goes through its evolutions, but what is sparking you right now?
SPEAKER_00:Um, so I do, I mean, obviously I do a lot with my my tarot deck. Um, and I also use a Sybil's oraculum because it's just so like gives you a core issue, it gives you a projection, and then it gives you two, you know, things to do to kind of get out of whatever you're in. And I'm like, okay, I appreciate that. I appreciate you giving me homework.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Is that an Oracle deck? What it is.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. It is. Um illustrated. Yes, I illustrated it. Tyana Lee McQuiller. Um, she wrote it and she also wrote the Hodo Tarot. Um, and so it's based on the Black Doves of Africa, and so there's a lot of mosaics in there. It is um an Oracle deck that uh you know plays on um Greek and Roman uh, you know, myth and stories, but also just very logical advice. Um it's very interesting when I whenever I I use this deck because some of the answers are so simple and you know, you can be really lost in your head. And you know, like there's one card that's like the confusion card, and it's a bunch of fish all like in this dark water, just like all bumping into each other. And you know, you get that card and you're like, yeah, I am confused. And but it's like, okay, are you making this more confusing than it has to be? Can you simplify it?
SPEAKER_01:And you're like, oh it feels very Pisces coded. I'm not gonna lie. A bunch of fish being confused and bumping into each other.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it there's like, you know, a card, you know, that's rage, and then there's one that's defense, and like the whole you know, premise of the defense card is to protect your goals and your dreams from anyone that's trying to harm them, including yourself. And I'm like, oh no, leave me alone. Let me self-sabotage in peace. Um, but yeah, and then I also like doing biblumancy. Sometimes I use fairy tales and sometimes I use the Bible. It really depends on like what I'm, you know, sort of near and what the mood is, because fairy tales have a lot to say. And so I love like opening up to a fairy tale and being like, okay, what do I need to learn from this? Um, or just like a Bible verse or you know, something like that. I I really love, you know, just sort of diving into a lot of different things. Um, recently I got back into uh doing more scrying, black mirrors, you know, and um, and so because I was like, you know what, it's always interesting what they tell me. Uh it can be a little scary at times because you know, staring into a mirror with a candle and you see your face morph and you're like, wait a minute, this isn't cool. Um but then like experience. This is my my shadow side.
SPEAKER_02:And this is do you want to share a little bit more about scrying, just in case anyone who's listening is not familiar, because I it's such a cool practice, and I I want to hear more about how you do it, but just in case anyone is like, what is that?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so there's like a few different ways that you can do it. You can um do it with a bowl of water and put some black ink in it and then put a candle next to it. The main thing is that you want to be kind of like in a dark space and just very little light so that you can kind of see the reflection that's coming through. Um, sometimes I do it with just a candle, you know, and just watch the flame and see what comes out there. Or you can do it with a black mirror or obsidian um uh stone mirror or you know, anything that's like a darker color, and you just sort of steady yourself and you look at the flame and then you look at the reflection, and it takes a while. It takes a while. You're gonna sit there and you're gonna see a whole lot of nothing for a while, and it's you're gonna be really bored. And and then one day just something shifts. And at first, you're gonna get like for me the first time I did it, I got scared because I didn't, I you know, I saw something that that was in the mirror and I was like, what is this? And then I was like, wait a minute, I don't want to be startled out of this, I gotta get back into that zone. And the main thing that you want to do and is just to kind of get out of your head, which is not an easy thing to do. But what I like to do is I like to make my eyes out of um get them out of focus and just sort of relax a little bit and then just sort of stare at the mirror and your face will start to shift. Um, and then maybe you'll see little shadows or pictures or something like that. Nothing, you know, if you want, you can write it down, but sometimes that breaks the concentration a little bit. So usually I just let it roll until like I feel like I've kind of popped out of it, and then I'll write it down and maybe try it again. But, you know, it is something that you just kind of have to um understand that it may take a while. Uh, it took me a while to really be able to put myself into that state. It put me, it took me a while to not get freaked out by some of the things, you know, that that you see, because you will see shadow aspects of yourself and you know, they're not very pretty. Um, and then you'll get some good information too. You may even go to bed that night and get some really interesting information from your dreams. So, you know, it's it's one of those things where it's like if you practice it enough, you will definitely see something that you need to see.
SPEAKER_01:I I really love this. And even going back to what you were saying about the oracle, right? It's that sort of pragmatic like, here's the problem, here's the message, here's the solution. So if someone's working through their divination, or even you, you know, you kind of know your vibe, you're like, I need a line from a book today, or I need to do some mirror work. Where do you come out of that and know what to do next? You know, is it protection work? Is it like realizing that there might be sort of like an evil eye energy that you want to remove? What do you do to kind of get to the solution piece?
SPEAKER_00:So I always look for things that are are not so much signs, but things indicators. I look for indicators. So for instance, if I'm getting a lot of evil eye, then my sink will clog, my toilet will clog, my bathtub will clog, my dishwasher won't work. So it's all of these things all at once, and I'm like, and it it'll be like, you know, like everything's clogging and like there's nothing there, you know, and it's like, why isn't this working? So I noticed that every time something like that happened, and of course, you know, like apartments and and houses, they're gonna have breakdowns, but it's almost like there's a few different things, and then my house will feel different. I'll be like, why does it feel like it's dirty? Like dirty, and I'm like, this is not okay because I know I cleaned it. Um but um so you know, I'll know then that I've kind of gotta do, you know, either some protection or, you know, like a cleansing or something like that. Um, another thing, you know, that each person, it's probably something kind of personal that that will be an indicator for them. Um, so I almost feel like, you know, bringing the tarot into it is like you become the hangman. You just watch what's around you and say, like, okay, so whenever I feel off, what are these little indicators that something's happening? Um, you know, and then sometimes there's big indicators, like, you know, like if a bird smashes into your window, like, okay, that that's that's pretty big one. That's a big one. That happened to me one time and it happened to my friend. We were both on the phone, and we were like, what at the same time? At the same time. And so we're like, we need to get off the phone, we need to do cleansing right now.
SPEAKER_04:Oh my god.
SPEAKER_00:Or, you know, you're trying to talk to someone about something. I I remember I was talking to someone on the phone, and the phones are both of our phones would hang up over and over. Like we would just like lose like the call over and over until we stop talking about this certain thing, and then it didn't drop the call anymore. So, you know, there there are indicators. Um, and I think that's something that we just need to sort of like watch for, you know, in our own lives. Like if you see something that and you start making the connection. And I I do want to say, like, you know, you just have to be careful because it's like not every single time something happens does it mean that there's evil eye, but it's usually a combination of things. And then, you know, maybe you'll lose your appetite too, and you'll just be like, Oh, I just don't feel like, you know, eating, or I I'm so tired and I can't figure it out, and you know, nothing is has changed really. Um, or you know, you have a series of like these like series of unfortunate events. Um and you know, you're just like, wait a minute, what's happening here? And the thing is, like with the internet now, like it's so weird because like anyone can look at you at any time and they could, you know, like take one look at and be like, I hate that person. And it's just like okay, you know, like, um, but you know, sometimes obsessive energy itself can be, you know, powerful and can kind of like uh get at you. I don't think for me personally, like once I have the indicators, I'm like, uh, let me just like get this off. I don't think anything is, you know, so crazy that I can't handle. But there are people that do enjoy hating on people. And as weird as it is to me, you know, there are people that enjoy that, or there are people that are obsessed with other people. And that energy can get really tangled up and knotted up really quick. And so, you know, when you are in that, it is really important to kind of just have certain tools and systems in place for you to kind of get out of that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I love that explanation because the evil eye is so common for anyone who didn't grow up with it. It's really just the concept that people's jealousy or ill will can be transferred onto with a look. Because I mean, anyone who's listening, you've probably been in a bad mood before and been like, look at that bitch over there eating crackers like she owns the place.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And she thinks she is.
SPEAKER_02:Like the cleansing and the protection can also just be a part of your everyday, like, you know, wearing an amulet or like any of the things that you suggested. And it also is reminding me, too, part of the big reason we wanted to talk to you. Um, and we did touch on it. You were talking about wearing the robe and doing things to make yourself feel better and how that shifts your energy. But um, we've talked before about how glamour magic is a kind of protection as well. Um, and I would love to hear, you know, your your thoughts on glamour magic and how people can integrate it into their day-to-day just to feel better, but also to be protected and um do the things you want to do.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So glamour magic is amazing because, you know, it's just a series of small actions. There's a story about Marilyn Monroe, and Marilyn Monroe is in the subway, and no one notices who she is. And so um, I forgot the photographer's name, but she looks over at the photographer and she was like, Do you want to see me become her? And they were like, Yeah. And they said all she did was a slight shift, and all of a sudden everyone was like, Marilyn Monroe's in the subway, Marilyn Monroe's in the subway. But before that, no one even knew it was her. So I always think of Glamour Magic as just these tiny movements to really just, you know, either bring focus to you in a room, say you have to give a presentation. Um, my friend Veronica Varlow uh, you know, taught me that when you go to uh, you know, a party or a place where you need to present or something like that, you stand in the doorway for a moment, you pull back your shoulders, you stand tall, and you stand there and you look from side to side. You just take a moment before stepping in, and automatically the attention is there on you, the focus is there on you, and people will start to come up to you. You don't even have to do anything else. People will just start coming up to you, and that's you know, the simplest glamour magic. Um, you know, glamour magic as well. I love mirrors, I love antique mirrors, I love mirrors and homes. I just think they're so beautiful and I I love them. Um, but each mirror in my house has its own uh specific job, quote unquote. You know, it's um say uh, you know, I have a compact mirror and I need to feel more confident, then I will look in that compact mirror. And I designated that compact mirror only for confidence. Or for instance, evil eye, going back to evil eye, uh, some of the mirrors in my house act as fun house mirrors. So they give, you know, a distorted version of something that, you know, if someone is trying to kind of look in on me. Um, and it just gives, you know, like the fun house effect where it's like, here's a warped version, you know, but it's not real. Um, you know, you can use mirrors to send bad energy back. Uh, you know, there's a lot of, I think in Feng Shui, um, if you put a mirror by the door, it sends, it sends back uh, you know, any negativity. Um, so, you know, with glamour, like there's so many different aspects to it, but one of my favorites is just for confidence. And that's why I love mirrors so much, because I feel like, you know, if you say, for instance, have a compact mirror and you take your favorite oil and you clean the mirror, and then you circle around the mirror, you know, three, nine times uh with that oil, and you just sort of speak into the mirror that this is for confidence. And every time you open that up, it's specifically showing you this version of yourself that is in their best, then that's something very powerful and very beautiful.
SPEAKER_01:I love this, you know, just keep keep going back to that intention and the purpose that you hold in all of these objects and everything that you do, and that is the magic itself. Do you translate that into your work? Are you inserting any kind of symbolism or any sort of art, sigils, anything at all that sort of adds a level of protection and keeps you from being perceived in a way you don't want to be?
SPEAKER_00:Yes, I have a few things that I do. So I've always loved photography because I feel like the way that you edit a photo can become, you know, a shield in itself. Um, if you use filters, it filters out what you don't want. You know, think of it that way. Um, you know, I like to edit my photos like in Photoshop sometimes, and sometimes I just don't have time and you know, I'm I'm going through different apps and filters and and whatever. But I'm always, you know, thinking of that. It's like, okay, this is filtering out negativity. This is only showing what I want to present. Um, and you know, I feel like that can be a very good protection because even as much as like we all love and hate social media, it's like, oh, it's nice to be inspired. It's like wonderful to see what you know, friends are up to. There's also these really negative aspects to it. That's why I always say the internet is the monkey's paw. And if you haven't read the monkey's paw, you need to because it is the best magical text ever in existence. And it's be careful what you wish for. You just may get it. Um, and that's what the internet is. It's like this free form where everyone gets to speak, and then there's these underbellies of trolls and other things. So, you know, in that aspect, filters and things like that that can be um in incredible, you know, protective um uh, you know, filters, or it could be glamour filters, or and then also even like your social media page. I mean, what are you putting out there? I just had a conversation with uh some people the other day, and someone once told me that they thought of their Instagram like their own private magazine, and they just put out there whatever they would like to see in a magazine, but it was it was their own, you know, curation. And, you know, I feel like that for me. I'm like, what do I want to put out there? I want to put out inspiring stuff, I want to put out interesting things, I want to play around with different characters and things like that. Um, so you know, for um, you know, again, like photography, filters, edits, all of that. Um, when I did Machina, the reissue for Madame Zuzus for Um Smashing Pumpkins, I mean, that is such an esoteric tech, uh, you know, album in itself that, you know, um, I made sigils for the album, uh, you know, listening to the songs and and just, you know, creating that. I also the album, I mean, it's being shipped at the end of the month. So people who have ordered it will see uh, you know, all the things that we we put in. But Billy really allowed me to um, because I understand a lot of like the esoteric, you know, aspects of the album, he allowed me to just really kind of go into it and see what came up. Um, you know, so we did that. Um and so I can't talk about too much until people see it, but you know, they can see the the little images online right now for snippets. And when I did the stage at Madame Zuzu's, I put an Edelweiss flower in the center of it because I was like, there's only going to be like loving energy that steps through through here. You know, we don't want anyone who's gonna bring down the party, we don't want anyone who's going to try to absorb or you know, make a place negative. So it just became this like really loving, you know, symbol for the space. So there's a lot of things that I do in my art. I mean, even when I'm, you know, working with butterflies, you know, drawing butterflies. This is all, you know, part of the transformation. Um, you know, and when I uh when I did my my home line, I drew those uh the big cats because I was like in a weird place myself. And I was like, what energy is coming out of here? It's oh, it's big cat energy, you know, but I also just wanted it to be this really sort of powerful piece that just stood on its own, but also was just protective because big cats are protective.
SPEAKER_02:Can you actually tell us a little more about your home line? Because we haven't talked about that and I am so excited about it.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, thank you. I'm trying to expand on it, but right now um I have some pillows and I have some journals, and in the future, I want to do purses and robes. I mean, obviously robes.
SPEAKER_01:Of course. I mean head scarves. I must ask, do you have tourist placements that are certainly I am a tourist? I have never met a tourist that I I will go on work trips, I will go on friend trips, and I will turn around and they will be in a robe the second I turn around. Like I don't know what it is, but I robe screams tourists so thank you for the confirmation. And they have to be like really fashionable robes, like the pretty robe. It has to be the pretty robe, or else we're not wearing it. Um I love this confirmation, yes.
SPEAKER_00:But it's um, but yeah, so I I created this uh home line because obviously, you know, my home is very special to me and it is my my sanctuary. Um, and so I wanted pieces that were affordable, but that would also just decorate and you know be sort of statement pieces in themselves. Because a lot of times, like people don't have like you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars to spend on a piece of art, but they have maybe like$50 to spend on a pillow, and a pillow will last, you know, a very long time as long as you're not jumping on it and you know, throwing it at people and um which you could do if you'd like. That's fun. Um, but I am expanding it and it's very much uh in the works right now. And you know, like I said, I'm I'm hoping to expand it to robes, and I really want to do head scarves, and I would really like to do small bags. Um, and at some point I would love to do a tassiography cup, but I just haven't figured out how to do that quite yet.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, I would really like that. Yeah, that sounds wonderful. I mean, and I I love the way that um you were in apartment therapy, right? Your house was in apartment therapy, and you've modeled for Loli by Zita Moldovan. Yes, there's an indigenous designer you have posed to.
SPEAKER_00:Jamie Okuma.
SPEAKER_02:Oh my gosh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I just bought another one of her dresses. I can't stop myself.
SPEAKER_02:Everyone needs to go buy both of these designers, um, or at least like drool up what you see. Um, but I just feel like that's such a natural progression for you. Like, I love your social media because you do share a lot of what you wear, what you make, and where you live, but it does feel very boundaried. And like I I love that as a great example for glamour magic. I always send people to your social media when this is what I mean. Do this.
SPEAKER_00:I think it's important. I mean, I think it's important to have boundaries. Um, I mean, for me, I remember you know, being on live journal all those years ago and just like girl. Like every date, how it went. I'm like, what was I thinking? Um, I guess I just needed an outlet, you know?
SPEAKER_01:It was a different time. It was a different time.
SPEAKER_00:It was definitely a different time. Um, but you know, as I've gotten older, I really appreciate my privacy. And I was like, not everything needs to be online. Like my relationship doesn't need to be online. You know, my uh, you know, private moments, I I love sharing fashion, I love sharing, you know, different aspects of my life. You know, I will tell personal stuff because I feel like that's important. I feel like, you know, when artists are trying to work through a project, or anyone, for example, is trying to work through a project and they're really, you know, stumbling on it, or, you know, like they're really just like, I'm not good enough for this because we have all been through that. But when you're going through it, you're very alone. And, you know, so I I feel like, okay, like I've got to share these parts of myself that can, you know, possibly help. Um, but I'm not gonna share when, you know, I'm in a horrific mood and you know, and just about to say some stupid things and get myself in a worse mood. And you know, I was like, I don't need that on the internet. I really don't. Um, but my whole thing is I just want to show people that having a magical world, you know, an artistic world, a creative world is possible for anyone. You know, it it's not just if you have a bunch of money, you can go to the dollar store, you can get some foam core, you can get some paint and some um, oh my god, what is that brown paper called? Uh I forget what it's called, but uh a roll of like a craft paper? Yeah, the craft paper. Do that and then you know, um create like your own giant half, you know, crescent moon if you want for your you know your apartment. I've done that before. And I literally went to the dollar store to get all that. Um I think I remember that moon. Yes, I still have it. It's it's it's in here, but I mean it's not on display right now, but uh, you know, it's just these little things, you know. People always ask me, I was like, you can go to a thrift store and just you know find some things, some beautiful scarves, things like that to kind of create these worlds. Um, so it's easy when you can break out of the mold and and do that. And you know, that's also why I created this home line too, and why I'm gonna want to expand it is just so that you know people can have these little bits of magic in their own homes. I'm so glad you're doing that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah. I love this and I love I want to be part of every world that you're creating besides your home goods line. What other projects should everyone come and check out that you're working on?
SPEAKER_00:A lot of them aren't out yet. Um, so it it's gonna be over the course of the next year, a lot of things will be uh coming out. Um, but the most recent thing that I have, you know, that just came out is um Smashing Pumpkins, the Machina uh box set that you can get from Madam Zuzus if you are a Machina fan. It's one of my favorite Smashing Pumpkins albums. I love it. And also Chrome Jets, another Smashing Pumpkins single just came out. Uh and um I'm currently working on my Substack, which is uh I'm shifting the focus to making magic out of the mundane. So it's basically uh I'm going to be, you know, sharing different things that I do to kind of shift the energy, but it's also going to be like, you know, taking you down memory lane to like 1980s, you know, Halloween. Um, and you know, just like nurturing the energy. Yeah, like something like that. Um, so it's a it's a lot of I won't say it's eclectic, but it's it's a bit eclectic because it's just whatever I'm I'm you know, sort of inspired by. So one entry would be, you know, images or photographers that I'm inspired by, things like that. But that's my um that's like my personal, you know, substack that I'm working on right now. And um, you know, I have a project with um Diana Dagas coming up pretty soon. I would say within like the next few weeks to to a month, we have a project and it's called Ace of Cups, and it's working with uh the Taros Aces. So cool. Yeah, it's super cool. So I'm excited about that. And as these projects that I have finished but will come out in the future, as they come about, I will be sharing them on my Instagram and my uh Facebook pages. So
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and you have a whole beautiful evil eye section in secrets of Romani fortune telling. My book with Pauline and Stevens, so everyone should check that out for a really lovely evil eye ritual that uh Polly and I also do, which is amazing. Really love it. Get that evil eye off of you. Exactly. This was so fun. Thank you so much for being here. We will put links to your um website and social media and everything in the show notes so folks can find it there. And since this is coming out in October, a few of the things that you mentioned might actually be out. So definitely be checked out.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. Yeah, at least one of them. Two of them. Two of them.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Thank you so much for joining us. This was so beautiful. Oh, thank you so much for having me. So fun. Thank you everyone for joining us again in our immaterial world. Welcome to the immaterial world.