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Immaterial World
A dedicated and transparent space to re-center how we explore glamour, fashion, magic, wellness, culture, and everything else we love, together.
hosted by Jessica Richards and Jezmina Von Thiele
Immaterial World
MORE SECRETS OF ROMANI FORTUNE TELLING with Jezmina Von Thiele
Jess interviews Jez for this spooky season bonus episode about tarot, palmistry, tea leaf reading, mediumship, and Secrets of Romani Fortune Telling. You can learn more about Romani culture by listening to Romanistan anywhere you get podcasts.
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Hosted by Jessica Richards and Jezmina Von Thiele
For bookings and for more about Jessica visit: www.the12th.house and Instagram: @jessicaxrich
For bookings and for more about Jezmina visit: www.jezminavonthiele.com and Instagram: @jezmina.vonthiele
Music and editing by DIA LUNA
Instagram: @dialunamusic
Artwork by Lane Friend
Instagram: @friendlane
Welcome to Immaterial World, a dedicated and transparent space to recenter how we explore glamour, magic, culture, and everything else we love together.
SPEAKER_04:Material world company material world.
SPEAKER_02:It's my co-host, Jasmina. And we're here to talk to you about all things divination and spookiness just in time for Halloween.
SPEAKER_01:Truly my favorite.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, I'm really excited to pick your brain today. So you talk often about practicing divination through a traditional Romani style. What does this mean? Uh what kind what other kinds of reading exists? What's different about how you approach divination versus other practitioners?
SPEAKER_01:I love this question because I have a very coquettish answer, which is um in some ways, uh the traditional Romani style is simply that I was taught by my Romani grandmother, and and it is inherently then traditionally Romani, because it's how her grandmother taught her.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, just by deduction alone, yes.
SPEAKER_01:And so I I love that, where it's just like it just is. Um, and I also love to um mention too that there is a real diversity of how Roma might read, what they might believe, whether they see it as like, okay, this is a job where we're just providing like community care, some common sense therapy, we're using these tools to do this work, or if it's really seen as like a deeply spiritual practice. I feel like a lot of the Romani people I know who read really do see it as a very spiritual thing, but like I make room for all of it because it's like we're definitely not a monolith. And at the same time, um, you do see a lot of traditional Romani techniques in contemporary reading because we have so heavily influenced all contemporary reading in particularly in the West, but other places too. And so um our work is in everything, and um, there are certain types of approaches that we might have, spiritual practices, especially centering around cleansing before and after we work for people, ways that we we tend to be a little more predictive than perhaps um some maybe mainstream American readers might want to be because it's part of our tradition. Um, and then there's a kind of uh this is very much a business approach to it, in addition to a deeply spiritual practice, in addition to this is an ancestral legacy that you're carrying. I think there's the belief too that um you're born with this uh and not necessarily can't be taught unless you're also born with it, is a little bit of a belief. But then also the the what that means to be born with it can also be broad depending on your family. And so um there's not like a one size fits all. And uh I loved writing the book Um Secrets of Romani fortune telling with Paulina because while there are a lot of closed practices that we didn't write about, um, the secrets was sort of a joke because it's like, yeah, we are telling you the secret things that you don't get to see, but honestly, our work has been um so appropriated over the centuries that you are probably engaging with Romani practices without even knowing it. And we just want to show you where it comes from, like you know, where its its roots are and how to navigate it ethically.
SPEAKER_02:Uh, you know, in the spirit that this is Halloween season, we will probably see some problematic Halloween costumes that are inspired from the culture. Uh any notes on that?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean, I always like to remind people, um I get the allure of dressing up as like a gypsy. Like I get it. Um, and just in case anyone is new here or and new to my work, um, you know, Roma refers to the diasporic ethnic group, also known as uh gypsies. We're originally from India, we're not Romanian, and gypsy is one of those really complicated words um where it's often used as a racial slur. And it's a word that a lot of Roma, my family included, reclaims and sometimes uses and uses publicly sometimes. But if you're not um of one of the uh ethnic groups to which this word has been applied historically, um, usually through a misunderstanding of where you come from and a kind of forced nomadism because of persecution, uh, then you shouldn't use it. And definitely dressing up as like a quote-unquote gypsy is no different than going brown faced or like, you know, delving into the other kind of like culturally appropriative territories. And um it's okay to dress up, you know, as you know, a historical figure you admire. Um if you want to. I was just looking at pictures of Katerina Tychon, um, this amazing Romani um activist. She's like people call her the uh Martin Luther King Jr. of Sweden, because she did so much for Romani rights there. And um her descendants are like wildly talented as well, like you know, writers and dancers and authors and witches, and she um was especially also a writer. It's like if you wanted to dress up as Katarina Tychon and like wear um, you know, her beautiful clothes and carry around one of her books, that's fine. But like dressing up as like a generic gypsy is problematic, especially the um fortune-telling accoutrements, it's just really mocking traditional romani dress. And if you want to do even better and like buy from a brand like Loli or uh Baisida Maldivan or a Romani design, if you were dressing up as like a real character or historical figure and not like browning your face or doing anything problematic, if you were just sort of like, I love this person, I'm gonna use this as an opportunity to show up as this person, that's fine. Yeah, you're you're wearing we're supporting Romani brands, but the kind of like caricature of any culture is always gonna be problematic.
SPEAKER_02:You know, I love this, and there's something that you've said quite a bit that I've heard you mention in other places, which is that when you diminish someone to just being a magical creature, that's where the problem comes in. When we're not looking at a culture as being humans, they just serve this purpose of doing magic and doing fortune telling. And that's the the ooh, kind of you know, mysticism that we're attracted to to go into those sort of costumes. I I love that there are ways to express joy for this culture without necessarily getting into the more problematic ways of doing this.
SPEAKER_01:Um, yeah, because when you think about the word gypsy, it's the degeneracy, the criminality, the promiscuity, the magicality, and the free-spiritedness. And leaning into all of those is like erasing centuries of persecution. Like those things might crop up, especially the promiscuity being related more to like very sad um trafficking statistics um and histories of enslavement and things like that. It's like you don't want to whitewash by leaning into stereotypes, but it is cool to learn about the culture and actually like really get into like who we are.
SPEAKER_02:Let's do that right now then. And let's start with let's start with tarot. And just a second ago, you said that the romani do tend to read in a more predictive manner than what you would expect from uh an American contemporary reader. Um, aren't people coming to see you so that they can know exactly what's gonna happen in their future or what's happening here?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you know, it's it's so interesting because I have friends who don't leave read predictively at all. And their clients are sometimes really frustrated because they're like, I'm not here to learn about myself or grow or reflect or talk about my feelings. Like I'm here to find out like when am I gonna marry this dude or whatever it is. Exactly. And um, I feel like I kind of split the difference between the two because I even though you know I believe in the interplay between fate and free will, and um I I believe that this is like a we're in collaboration with spirit, I do also think that our consent and our agency are incredibly important. And um, I do have a trauma-informed approach to reading. And so while I am happy to give you like my thoughts on what could happen, I really like to emphasize that first things change, like they just do. And second, um, you get to make all of your own decisions still. But I will be really honest, if um, for instance, I had a client recently who I'm really quite fond of, and um, she was so excited about this person that she had reconnected with from her past, and you know, she gave me the context of like, this has been so great. I would love to know like how's it gonna go with this person? Um, and usually I approach those kinds of things with like, here's some things to think about, look out for advice, because I'm not gonna be like yes or no, like to the to a person, because a whole relationship is a collaboration and someone else's free will and choices are part of it too. But I did see a lot of really narsty cards come up that were just suggesting that like it would be best if she kind of guarded her heart. Maybe don't be quick to trust this person. They don't seem like they're actually in a good place for a relationship. They haven't been totally honest with you. And I it was like a combination of the cards and also like strong intuition. And I found a really gentle way to kind of because I'm a very solution-oriented reader. When I see something difficult, I'm not just gonna drop a bomb on you or try to scare you. It's I was just sort of like, listen, like, just pace yourself, be gentle. I'm seeing that you know there's confusion here. He doesn't totally know what he's about right now. And she was really surprised and kind of disappointed. And I also knew it wasn't what she wanted to hear. And um, I felt bad delivering it to her. I tried to be as like kind and like just like, you know, try to approach it this way and go gentle, go pace yourself. And then within a couple of months, she was like, Oh, babe, you were right, you were right. And so it's like sometimes it is written out a little bit like that, but also it's not like the signs weren't there, probably. I didn't know that much about the situation. It was someone who wrote in and asking for an audio reading, so we didn't like have a discussion.
SPEAKER_04:Oh yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So I have really nothing to go on other than the cards because sometimes people are like, oh, you can tell by their facial expressions. Like sometimes I don't see my clients at all. They're they're busy and they just ask me to send them an audio file or something. Um, so yeah, it it's so I'm not a I'm not uh what's the word? If if it's something seems written, I'm gonna say it. I'll say it nice and I'll give you good advice, but I'm gonna say it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I mean, I'm someone that's been read by you on multiple occasions. And one thing that I love is that it's so conversational and collaborative. And if we're thinking about how many people approach divination as they they want to sort of sit there stonefaced and have you make the predictions and the guesses, sort of to prove to them that that you know what you're doing that you can do, you know, the the best, the best sessions that we've had, uh, there's a lot of dialogue that helps to inform what you're seeing and you're asking me questions, and I'm offering the information and and sort of the thought processes around what I'm processing, how we can navigate it. How can clients best work with you to feel more empowered to talk about some of the stickier cards or situations that are coming up? I mean, you're saying this was an audio file, but you could clearly see that there were moments that she was going to be navigating. So let's say it's in person and there's things that are coming up, you know, maybe there's like a really there's a tower, you flip over a tower, something like that. You know, how are how is someone navigating with you in a moment like that?
SPEAKER_01:Well, first, I really love your point too, that like readings are so much more beneficial if you're going in with the idea of like, I'm going to enter this space to try to learn something, work something out. You still get to have boundaries around how much or how little you want to share with me. I think that's really important that people know that you have boundaries with everyone, how much you want to share. Um but I love it when people are like, cool, I'm not gonna waste my time trying to test you or be vague or anything. Let me just tell you what I want to focus on. Um, which I love. And if the and if people are coming in, it's like, I genuinely don't have anything I want to focus on. I'm just curious. That's also great because that's also a direction where it's like, okay, what do you need to know the most right now? Um, but I think that it can be very helpful um if you as a client um are allowing a vulnerability that you feel comfortable with to share what the connection is for you. Because I tend to like to bring up the things that I see and then ask, can you relate it to anything in your life right now? And sometimes I will have a feeling about what it's related to, but it can be a lot more empowering for the person to share what they see, especially because sometimes it might be something that is echoing throughout many areas of their lives. And I might only pick up on, you know, the most prominent one where it's like, okay, this is your relationship, but they might be like, oh, and also though, this is definitely my relationship with my mom and also my boss. And I I might do this a little bit with my kids. And like it's important for it to allow you to make those connections because this is supposed to be, you know, a supportive community care where it's about you. So I really love it when people do feel safe enough to share what they're moving through because I feel like that helps us have a more holistic and comprehensive scope. And then when challenging things like the tower come up, we can talk about like, okay, well, what are you ready to release then? Like if you feel like something's falling apart here, like what do you think it's clearing the way for? And then they get to think about what they want next. And then the cards that follow often already reference that. Like it's not like I'm changing my reading based on what they say. It's more of a like a validation because the cards are laid, you know, like they're already saying what they're saying. But I think um a lot of times readings, especially for people going through challenging times, um, are often trying to be validating, assuring you about the things that you are doing right, the things that you really know to be true, and encouraging you for how to best move through like a stormy season. And uh, because we all have stormy seasons, it's like none of that's a surprise.
SPEAKER_02:I I think that we see divination coming up in the media and in cultural references in a way that you know, there's always those scary cards. It's death, it's the tower, it's the three of swords, you know, those are the ones that come to mind. Why is that? Why, why is this the association that people have with divination? And and what do these cards mean to you? Because I know that they've come up in my readings, and some of them have been very positive, and some of them have even become the logo for my business because of our reading together. So, you know, what how would you rebrand the images that some of these cards have gotten a bad rap for?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, honestly, um my short answer is racism. Um, because I think the trope of the scary Romani fortune teller or the scary like voodoo lady, or like the you know, the scary insert, marginalized, often BIPOC, you know, black, indigenous person of color, uh reader who's working within some sort of tradition, that trope in horror in all kinds of films and things like that have really given all divination a very sinister uh tone. And often um these characters are used as catalysts for um bad things to happen in films. And so I really do think it's uh racism in in the media that has made these things so scary. Because I often think of um my grandmother reminding me that the challenging cards come up because we always need to face hard things. Like if we ignore difficult things, if we ignore pain, you know, we continue to hurt ourselves over and over. It's I like to use the analogy too. Like it, you know, if you are ignoring an injury and you're just pretending that there's not something wrong with your leg, it's you know, keep walking on it as though nothing's happening. You're not listening to the wisdom of pain. Pain is telling you to pay attention.
SPEAKER_02:If that's happening, you might be the nine of wands.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:That's why we have the nine of wands. So I think that um one way to approach this is sort of, you know, from a kind of I'm being a little tongue-in-cheek, but it's like decolonize your practice first, but um, we can do that while we're also just learning not to feel so scared and out of control, because I think divination tools are meant to remind us that we are collaborating with spirit. You know, it's that we still have free will, we still get to make choices, and it's just giving you a little more insight and awareness and an opportunity to think about how you're actually feeling. Because chances are if you have all the scary, sticky, tough cards coming up, you're probably already know. You you already know that you're going through something. It's not a surprise. Um, and so you probably could use a moment to process it because maybe you haven't had time, and that's why you book this reading.
SPEAKER_02:I love that. And I love that you're, you know, this is part of that conversation too. This is not going to be a surprise to you that you're heading through these sticky situations, having that collaborative conversation rather than holding it inside is so beautiful. But this really reminds me of something else because although we might perhaps think of divination as something that we do for entertainment, you offer so many workshops and classes. And it's also outlined in your book that you can use tarot to do shadow work. You can do it to do self-exploratory work, or you can use it in combination with your therapy. Um, you know, I've been in your shadow work class before, and it was so helpful for me to really unleash some of my feelings around things getting out of control and what might I want to work with, or you know, but I'm gonna let you speak to this because you're the teacher. I'm just the student. So I I love that this is a non-typical way to approach divination.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I really love using tarot as a supplement to anything that you want to dive into. I often use it um as a tool for uh challenging experiences in general. Like if I have a dream that I don't understand, and dream divination is a really big part of uh Romani training. Like we're use we're taught to use dreams as tools and see them as a real space that we go to and to process things, but also to work with spirits. And sometimes, I mean, as everyone knows, dreams don't always make a lot of sense. And so even if you're doing your best to try to figure out, like, okay, um, so there were a lot of pumpkins in that dream. What do pumpkins mean to me? You might get a little stuck. And um, so I will pull cards to figure out like, okay, what does this mean? And what do I need to know? And what's the obstacle? And what am I, what was I releasing in this dream? Why did this happen? You know, what am I supposed to take from it? And I use uh cards to speak to spirit guides a lot because um sometimes I'm very clear audience for myself. I tend to uh I was just telling you earlier today, I have a much easier time being psychic for my clients and a much harder time uh when I'm in my busy season to just pause and even remember to take good care of myself. And I'm that's you know an ongoing thing for I think a lot of readers who get busy, where it's like you get used to doing a lot of spiritual work for other people. And so I use my cards all the time to help me tune into my guides if I just can't hear them clearly enough. And I can do that for other people too, which is really fun to talk to people's spirit guides, and I use it as a tool for mediumship because I have a lot of boundaries around when I want to talk to spirits or not. Um, I love working in the realm of the living. I'm happy to work in the realm of the dead to serve the living, but it's not a place I want to live. And so I only use cards as like a direct dial, you know, like, is there someone you want to talk to? Sure. Let's pull cards for that person. Um, and then it's kind of like closed circuit. Um, but I think tarot is really good. Sometimes people talk about like, oh, my tarot card, uh tarot deck is calling me out, or my spread is calling me out. It will just bring your attention to things that you kind of know you should be paying attention to. And I don't think um you need to think of your cards as being aggressive or mad at you or anything like that. Um, but you are using spiritual tools for self-understanding and exploration. So they're gonna tell you the things that you need to pay attention to.
SPEAKER_02:And the things that you most likely already know about yourself to be true.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Because there might be a way you haven't thought about it yet. And sometimes people forget you can ask clarifying questions. So if you feel like your cards are being sassy and telling you what you already know, you might say, like, what am I not seeing? and pull a card about that, or like, what have I overlooked?
SPEAKER_02:I would love to go back to talking about mediumship for a second because this is something that um, you know, I find to be so fascinating, and I think that it's a gift that I personally would probably feel a lot of responsibility that if I had that. So I love that this is something so beautiful that you can use to connect with someone's guides and someone's spirits. What are some of the personal ethics that you have around mediumship? You know, what kind of parameters or boundaries do you use? And and how do you read in this way?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Such a good question because a lot of my first boundaries are really for myself, just because I grew up um with the ability to see spirits and a lot of really unhappy, kind of terrifying spirits in my house, uh, following my mother, who was kind of carrying a lot of ancestral burden. And um so I got to a point in my childhood where I was just seeing spirits so regularly and sometimes really unhappy or scary or threatening spirits, as well as really lovely, sweet, beautiful spirits and nature spirits and all these great things that I just kind of learned uh, you know, through talking to my grandmother, because I was like, I am terrified and I'm six. No one is no one is helping me with this. She was like, just tell them that you don't want to see them, you know, and it became easier for me over time as I became more confident as a reader to be like, I don't want people's dead people to just show up in a reading. Like, you have to ask me if I want to do mediumship. I will have to consent to it, and then I will talk to the dead people. And it's really interesting because as a reader, I will often read for people who maybe recently lost a spouse or something equally traumatic. I will see the pain, I will not see the dead person until they say like what it what happened, and only if they ask to talk to that person. And I will offer, I'll say, you know, I can, you know, talk to the person if you would like, because they should also consent to that, because that might not be something everyone would be comfortable with. Um, and so consent is a huge part of it, where it's like, I'm also just not gonna spring your dead people on you for you, but also not for me either. Um, I definitely wouldn't be the person who walks up to you in the grocery store and be like, I have a message for you. I would never.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, no.
SPEAKER_01:Um, yeah. And and it's because I have that relationship with spirits because I know that sometimes people are mediums are plagued by the spirits demanding that, and I understand why they would give in to that. It's not a judgment, it's just simply that I refuse to have that relationship with spirit, and I ask them to work in a different way, and I ask my guides to be an intermediary. And then some of the other things I have had um clients have people who passed in really challenging circumstances, and I have almost like a council of spirits where let's say um one spirit might be sharing something really maybe rough to hear, and then the person's spirit guides might say, Don't tell them that. And like, so I will always listen to their spirit guides over the dead person because the dead person is just your problematic ex-husband or whatever, your spirit guides.
SPEAKER_02:You know, it's like in life, he has no filter there, totally.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so I'm like, I'm gonna trust your spirit guides who are like here to help you, not this rando. Um so that's also one of my strong boundaries.
SPEAKER_02:I love that you're talking about this because this is something, you know, I always come back to this that I think that you now I actually don't want to say this, that you sort of hold a responsibility when you are able to connect to the world in that way. But but but you really don't. Your responsibility as the reader is to do it in a way that's ethical for the person that's that's getting the end information. So this is really beautiful. And it as we're having this conversation, there is something going on with someone online who had posted about Ouija boards this week and you know, had sort of joked that she was being canceled and she removed a post that she had put, and she said it in her newsletter today. And I I mean I agree with her in what she was saying, but she said, you know, if they're if you're connecting with a spirit, it's because they wanted to and not because you're disturbing them. You know, you're not calling people that don't want to be called. Like the call is going to someone that wants to pick up the phone.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. No, that's so true. And I've also had spirits refuse to answer questions for clients. Um, especially one that comes up often actually is around ancestry. Um, if they, for instance, have an ancestry that maybe was um particularly marginalized at the time that they were alive, and the person's trying to figure out if they have a certain kind of heritage, sometimes that spirit will be like, no. Or um sometimes about you know, abuse and other things, they might just be like, no comment. And there's certain cards that indicate it, and sometimes I hear it and it's yeah. Um, so they they won't tell you anything they don't want to tell you. And they might mess with you though, which is the other thing. So the which is also why I prefer to talk to guides or I have my little tests to figure out like, am I even gonna talk to the spirit? Which is also why, like, you know, I'm not a I'm not primarily a medium, I'm a medium as needed because it's not my favorite uh thing to get into because it's complicated. But I shouldn't say it's not my favorite thing to get into, but um it is I have a lot of respect for people who who do it full time, and I think I'm just um yeah, it's one of those things I can do, and I'm happy to do it as a service, but there are also a lot of other wonderful things I can do for people, and I'm glad I get to do that too.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I want to talk about the breadth of services that you do because I think that where there is, you know, I make so many jokes when people say, What do you do for a living? And I say, I don't know. I feel like you could answer this question the same way because there's so many things that you do, but as someone that works in multiple modalities or has many offerings, do you find that you like to do things on their own? Do you like to combine them? You know, what is what does it look like? I I know you didn't want to say a favorite, but maybe you can say some some versions of favorite things that you do like to do.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you know, tea leaf reading is one of is an unsung hero. I think um love.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. So good symbolism, love.
SPEAKER_01:So fun. And yeah, it's just not as popular. Um, it it really had its moment in the 1920s, um, but it Uh, I I think it's time for tea leaf reading to come back.
SPEAKER_02:Can I ask? This is just like a random question. Do you think it's because we don't really have a tea culture in the United States? Is that it?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. You know, there Caitlin Foise wrote a really interesting blog about the decline of tea houses, and which is of interest to her because she also designed um the the interior of the tea house, Madam Zuzu's, um, that Billy Corgan and his wife um Chloe own. And uh yeah, there were there were multiple reasons for the decline of the tea culture, some of which were political. And also, again, there were a lot of initially the kind of quote unquote gypsy tea houses that then suddenly didn't want to employ actually Roma. And so there were a lot of things happening um at the time, and I definitely refer people to her because I wish I could remember the history with more precision, but I can't. But um I think part of it is the lack of the tea culture, and I think cards are also um, you can just keep shuffling and you know, whereas you have to drink a whole cup of tea, it's more ritualized, it's a little more intimate. You take your time with it, and so maybe it doesn't lend itself as well to um a lot of the online medium set we're using where it's like, you know, people are pulling lots of cards and channeling, although I would like to do more with tea online too. But um, yeah, a lot of the things I offer, I'm always happy to give a reading in whatever capacity. And I offer tarot, palm, tea leaf reading. If it's a long enough reading, I love to do a combo, especially depending on what people need. I love to be customizable because different tools are really helpful for different things. Like palmistry is amazing if you want to learn more about yourself as a person, if you want to take a look at your past, present, future and more of a big picture. Tea leaves are amazing if you want to sit with symbols, have a more kind of magical, customized, um, interpretive, analytical reading, and it can be great for um talking to spirit guides, uh, but you can also use it for literally anything. You can ask it questions like you would ask Zotero. Usually I would focus the tea leaf reading to um either like what do I need to know right now, or maybe like one or two um intentions because you're drinking one cup of tea with this focus. And whereas tarot is amazing if you don't know what you want to do. It's great if you have questions. Um, you can ask multiple questions for as long as the session allows. But I also work with um writers and artists, and I love doing creativity work with divination and helping people move through uh challenging times. I've worked on I've done readings for people's uh plots for their novel, but I've also done readings on people's like creative blockages and why that's happening. Um, so that's super fun. And I'm also an editor, um, and I have a very kind of symbolic, I'm I'm gonna work with the big themes in your book, and we can bring in magic or not kind of approach. And um I also love uh helping people refine their own practice, and so a lot of people come to me who want to either um become more proficient or feel more confident in their readings, they might be readers themselves, people who want to make sure that they're navigating being a reader in a really ethical way and um that they're being, you know, um culturally informed about the work that they're doing. I love helping people with that. And um I also help people figure out like what a spiritual practice might look like for them. And I love, you know, I do a lot on my Patreon to kind of give guidance um weekly and um sometimes daily, depending on what's going on. But I think of myself as um very much being of service, and there are very few things that I wouldn't be available for. I I'm always like excited when there's a new request.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, we love a multi-hyphenate in this house.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Wait, I do want to go back to your Patreon though, because you had mentioned dream divination a second ago, and I know that this is something that you connect with your community and you talk about dream divination. I personally think that dreams are fucked. Like I had to like learn early in life that I was not gonna get much from my dreams except for being super stressed out. I'm holding my hands out, the teeth are falling into the hands. It's like, yes, I much in life I know that I'm stressed out when I'm asleep too. So tell me a little bit about how you work with groups or with individuals with dream divination. And like who is getting something from their dreams? I'm fascinated by this.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and I love to validate too that some people really don't feel like they get anything from their dreams. Um, and there might be really good reasons from that, ranging from the medication you're taking, even to your genetics. Like I've seen studies that some people genetically don't dream as much as others or don't retain their dreams. Um, maybe it's not correct to say that they don't dream, but they might struggle to retain memory of their dreams. So if you can't remember your dreams, it's not your fault. Um, but it could also be like an extra glass of wine at night or like weed or you know, whatever medication you're taking, uh, it could also be impacting that. Yes.
SPEAKER_02:Uh the one time I was in the astral, I had done catamin.
SPEAKER_00:We'll say that yes. Medicinally, you didn't medicinally prescribed. But um supervised. Yes, all of that.
SPEAKER_01:Um, yeah, that is also I having also um spent time with ketamine medicinally prescribed, supervised therapeutically, that's also a wonderful astral place to go and to, and I always bring my tarot work into it and tea leaf reading and everything. But um yeah, people can get so much from their dreams, whether you are processing trauma, which I always suggest, you know, work with a therapist um for those things. Because I'm while I am trauma-informed and I've done those certifications, I'm definitely not a therapist. I'm not a supplement for any kind of psychiatric care. Um I mean, I'm not a replacement for any psychiatric care. I can be supportive, though, to your care. Um so you can process things. You can um also work with spiritual themes. Sometimes people feel like they're meeting guides or they are getting messages about what to focus on or what to release. Really honestly, not dissimilar from what you might get from a tarot reading, but you're just sort of using your dreams as the methodology. And some people will lean into lucid dreaming, or they might keep a really thorough dream journal and start to look back over that journal over time and also trust that sometimes like time is the best clarifier, time can be a wonderful editor as well. And so you might look through and find different threads depending on what you're going through. And so thinking of dreams is another tool, but maybe a tool that you um yeah, you study in a highly personal way can be really interesting because usually the references that come up in dreams would be specific to you, your cultural context, community context, personal experiences. It's unlikely to be helpful to look to um like interpretations of symbols from um cultures or um perspectives that are totally foreign to you and have not influenced you. You want to look at the things that have actually influenced you. And so it's like becoming fluent in your own references is is kind of fun with dreams.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I love I have a few people in my life that might say something like, Oh, last night I was in my dream town and I'll be like, come again. And they're like, oh, you know, every time I have a dream, I'm like in this town. I'm like, what town? Like, not everyone has this experience. So what do you when someone's working through like a lifelong theme or something that always happens to them? Like, how would you suggest that they approach unpacking that or the symbols or the imagery in those dreams?
SPEAKER_01:I think of it as like working um with an analysis of like an artwork almost. Like it's sort of like, okay, what are the major symbols here? What's the mood and the tone? What are the characters doing? Um, and I I have a very literary approach, and that is a lot of my that's another aspect of my training, is that I'm a trained, you know, writer and artist and um performer, and I do all those things as well. And I see storytelling and divination as inseparable, and um, because we're just we're moving through our narrative arc with these tools as well. And so I would approach it as a almost like a literary exercise, but with a spiritual slant, and then using divination and your own intuition and recognizing how things resonate for you, um, validating your psychic senses that may have been activated during the dream or through the analysis process or later, and when you make a connection to the dream, another part of waking life. Um, I think all of that is really helpful. The methodology really so much depends too on like how your brain works and how you like to process things. So for some people, dream journaling is like the way, and then they methodically pull cards and ask questions and kind of like might chart out what the different symbols were and figure out what their associations are and go through each one and think about how do they all relate thematically. Whereas some people might go more on like, this is my gut feeling when I woke up, and that's plenty. And so I'm more of a kind of like, I'm gonna chart it and graph it and draw some pictures and write some write my symbols of keys um down. But I sometimes I wake up and I'm just like, oh, Swan Goddess visited me.
SPEAKER_02:I love that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I'm still still working on what that is exactly, but I know she's there.
SPEAKER_02:You know what? She sounds gorgeous and powerful, so we will allow it. Um actually speaking of, are there any hacks to having better dreams or like to avoiding having terrible dreams and not just skipping that extra glass of wine at dinner? Sometimes that's not an option. Sometimes that's not an option.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I uh when I teach dream divination, I always delve into sleep hygiene. And I I mean, I love a study, I love some empirical evidence, and there are lots of different tips um on, you know, of course, things that some of us find very challenging, including myself. Like no devices two hours before bed is supposed to be extremely helpful. It will never be me.
SPEAKER_02:I I I would love to meet a human that does not have the device until they fall asleep.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yeah. I mean, gosh, yeah. So I wouldn't be me, but we're okay. Um, we're still dreaming. Um, but that's a big one. Um, figuring out the lighting and the temperature for you is really important. If those things are off, that can really disturb your sleep a lot. And it might be something that you overlook maybe on behalf of a partner or sheer laziness or whatever. If you're too tired once you get into bed and you're like, I'm cold, but I can't do anything about it. That'll make it really hard, you know, for you to navigate that um in the dream world. And um then there's certain things that you can eat or imbibe that can be very helpful. Um, like cashews have tryptophan in them, and they can be very helpful for you if you're getting sleepy. Um, blueberries are nice, but you'd want to have these snacks like two hours at least before bed. Try to finish your beverages like two hours before bed is another part of it. Um, and beverages, I love working with herbs. Mugwort is a popular one that people go to for dreams, and it can create very vivid dreams. Um, that might not always be your preference. You some people are like, mugwort's a little too much for me. And if it feels too much to drink it, but you still want to work with the plant, you can even just put a bunch of it under your pillow and a little sachet, or you can use a mugwort oil, not an essential oil, but just a regular, you know, infused oil on your skin if you like that. Um, but I also really love working with blue lotus, which is uh for me, it is um very gentle, it's also not as bitter. Um, but I like them both a lot. And blue lotus is a really has been used um for many, many centuries uh for dreaming, and it's a very mild euphoric. Like you can go to work with a glut like a cup of blue lotus, it's not going to like you know bring you on a journey exactly. But in your dreams, it is much more potent, I think, because you're already kind of giving into this like magical other realm. Um, but they you might also notice that there are certain herbs that just you really love and click with. I love the um the nervines in general, like the kind of calming, relaxing ones. I tend to run anxious myself. And so for clearer dreams that are not just about my own neuroses, which are also important. It's also important to work through that. Um, but like skull cap, lemon balm, um sit chamomile for some people, but it can be a diuretic sometimes too. But like in the sort of like relaxing, like take it down a notch, valerian if if it's not too potent for you, can uh kinds of teas can be really helpful. Poppies if it's not too potent for you. You know.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, I love all of this, and then anything that is sort of like a no-no. I mean, outside of the sleep hygiene, like the lights, but from like a food or an herb perspective that you might want to have not so late in the day.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean, caffeine is such a big one, and like having a really heavy meal right before you go to sleep is tough for like lots of reasons. Like, like your digestion ticks a lot is you know, it's busy during the night, and there's the acid reflux that could make you wake up. It might, you just might not get as good sleep quality. If you're like absolutely ravenous before you go to bed though, like I would never say like don't eat, like, you know, take care of yourself, like listen to your body telling you what to do. But the sort of like midnight snacking, especially if it's just out of boredom, I would suggest not to. Um, if not for any body shaming reasons, but just simply like it might interrupt your sleep and make your dreams a little less clear.
SPEAKER_02:I have to laugh because the amount of times that I voice memo memo to you at like three o'clock in the morning, I'm like, oh, I just made my hot scrambled eggs because sometimes that makes me go back to sleep.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, see, it's not crystal. Maybe that helps you.
SPEAKER_02:I will make my pot of coffee. I'll be like, oh, just have one of these. And then I do go back to sleep. It's the warmth of it. So I think I'm gonna be more responsible. But yes, I feel like I've done everything on the naughty list like every single night of my life. So this is very true.
SPEAKER_01:I wonder if you made yourself like a big pot of like lemon balm and like blue lotus tea, if that would feel uh if it would help. But also I know some people have the adverse reaction to caffeine where it actually makes them sleepy. And I don't, we haven't talked about if that's you yet. But yeah, um it might be interesting to just like if you're hearing, if you're also doing things on the like, you know, quote unquote naughty list. Um, it could be interesting to just swap them out with things like, oh, maybe I'll just try like a plant ally instead of a late night coffee and tea.
SPEAKER_02:Making scrambled eggs at three o'clock in the morning and trying to warm up my stomach. I'll just have a nice cup of tea. Yes, that's this is gonna sound so great. Really representing the polarities.
SPEAKER_01:Do you find that scrambled eggs work for you though? I people are different, like all over. These are general rules that you might find you're an exception, and I love that for you.
SPEAKER_02:And I'm not going to dream town when this happens. I'm connecting all the dots. I love this. You know, I could talk about this with you for hours, and I have. But if someone wants to come do that in my place and they want to support your work, what's the best way for them to connect with you?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so jasminavontila.com, you can book with me through my website. I'm also delighted if you want to email me and ask, you know, uh if there's something it's like I would love to focus on this, is is this you? We could figure it out together. Um, I'm happy to figure out if, you know, what would work for you. And if it's not me, I'll refer you to someone who I love. Um and also following me on Instagram, especially, Jasmina.vontila. Uh, and um my book with Paulina Stevens, Secrets of Romani fortune telling is a really awesome way to get more information from us, but also to support us. And our podcast, uh Romana Sam Podcast, if you're curious about uh Romani culture, we interview Roma um quite a lot about really cool things, lots of different topics, and Paulina and I do a weekly tarot reading for the week ahead, which is super fun. And you can join my Patreon where I post um more like kind of personal things, um, more frequent community reads that go a little deeper than the things I offer on Instagram because I do a lot of like quickies for the algorithm and just for like quick bursts of information for our you know Instagram attention spans. Um, but Patreon, I go a little deeper and uh spend more time moving through things and offer different groups and opportunities, discounts on workshops when I can, that kind of thing.
SPEAKER_02:I would love for you to start doing slowy's on Instagram where it's just you slowly drinking tea and at the end of 30 minutes, you do a reading on it. My God. We're gonna redo the algorithm. I love that. Thank you so much for your time today, and I'm so excited to keep having these conversations with you. Me too. I think that if our listeners have questions on any of these types of divinations, then they can just send us a note, send us an email, uh, or go on our website and we will include that in future episodes.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, please do.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you.
SPEAKER_04:Come to me in the dead material work. Divide in the dead material world. The dead material world. The edge of material world.
SPEAKER_02:Immaterial world is hosted by Jessica Richards and Jasmina Bontila. Music by Dia Luna. Artwork by Lane Fred. Follow us at Immaterial World Pod on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube. Visit our website at www.immaterial dashworld.com. Or send us an email at Immaterial World Pod at gmail dot com.