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Immaterial World
A dedicated and transparent space to re-center how we explore glamour, fashion, magic, wellness, culture, and everything else we love, together.
hosted by Jessica Richards and Jezmina Von Thiele
Immaterial World
GRIEF WORK with Laura Sullivan Cassidy
Laura Sullivan Cassidy is a Gen X, Enneagram #2, Pisces Sun/Virgo Moon. She is a writer, editor, artist, and interviewer who has previously worked as a music critic, fashion and style journalist, content director, and multimedia ghostwriter. Having used the early pandemic era to train in positive psychology, grief coaching, and end of life doulaship, she now works in outreach and client care at Recompose, the Seattle-based leader in an environmental form of death care known as human composting.
Outside of that work, Laura leads workshops on death awareness and creative expression, edits a Substack called Griever’s Ball, curates experiences and zines, and makes industrial/noise/post-punk music with her partner—most recently in a project called Less Tower. She's currently working on Altered Anatomy, a collection of interviews about living in a medically amended body for an occasionally recurring event/happening called Tearjerker.
In this episode, Laura talks about her rich career in storytelling, creating meaningful spaces to celebrate life as well as grief, and so much more.
For more about Laura visit:
https://laurasullivancassidy.com/
https://www.instagram.com/laurasullivancassidy/
https://www.instagram.com/recomposelife/
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Hosted by Jessica Richards and Jezmina Von Thiele
For bookings and for more about Jessica visit: www.the12th.house and Instagram: @jessicaxrich
For bookings and for more about Jezmina visit: www.jezminavonthiele.com and Instagram: @jezmina.vonthiele
Music and editing by DIA LUNA
Instagram: @dialunamusic
Artwork by Lane Friend
Instagram: @friendlane
Welcome to Immaterial World, a dedicated and transparent space to recenter how we explore glamour, magic, culture, and everything else we love together.
SPEAKER_03:Material world coming in the material world.
SPEAKER_02:Laura Sullivan Cassidy is a Gen X Enneagram II, Pisces son Virgo Moon. She is a writer, editor, artist, and interviewer who has previously worked as a music critic, fashion and style journalist, content director, and multimedia ghostwriter. Having used the early pandemic era to train in positive psychology, grief coaching, and end-of-life dualist, she now works in outreach and client care at Recompose, the Seattle-based leader in an environmental form of death care known as human composting.
SPEAKER_01:Outside of that work, Laura leads workshops on death awareness and creative expression, edits a substack called Griever's Ball, curates experiences and zines, and makes industrial noise post-punk music with her partner, most recently in a project called Less Tower. She is currently working on Altered Anatomy, a collection of interviews about living in a medically amended body for an occasionally recurring event/slash happening called Tear Jerker.
SPEAKER_02:The subject matter we're going to get into with our next guests is heavy, but judging by everything that we have read about them, their absolute beauty with words and stories, and how they deeply want to advocate for the beauty of life is something that just feels like the most incredible lens that we can be putting this subject matter through. In their own words, getting to know life by knowing that it ends. And we love a multi-hyphenate here. And this person has an incredible resume that we can't wait to dive into. We are here today with Laura Sullivan Cassidy to discuss her work as an end-of-life doula and all of the end-of-life things. So welcome, Laura. So glad you're here with us today. Thanks so much for having me. Thank you. Thank you for being here. I really want to start by talking about your early career, which is a far trajectory from where you are now, but something I'm very close to working in the fashion industry. Tell us how you started your career and how you got to where we are now.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I was a journalist for many years, starting kind of in regional or local media in Seattle, alternative weeklies, city magazine stuff. And it was kind of in a different era. I feel like most of us can relate to like the early 2000s being sort of a different world. It really was a different world in Seattle. Seattle was a much smaller town. And at that time, we would consistently show up on those like worst-dressed cities in America polls that like, you know, early online media liked to use as I don't even know if they called it clickbait back then. But and so I was a style and fashion and shopping and retail reporter. And it was really fun to work with that, you know, to kind of go against that and to fight for all the cool stuff that was happening in the city. And I think that I really um I grew a and I grew in a great community at that time because there weren't a lot of us and and and there were a lot of really talented people and they needed and deserved respect. And we were able to kind of grow this little thing. And and we would do different people would do fashion shows and designer competitions, and there were a couple of design schools in town, and we would work with them. And sometimes when I look back on it, it does feel a little bit like provincial, maybe, or you know, just a little, you know, it's fair, it's fairly small town kind of stuff. I lived in New York in my 20s, so I understand the contrast there. But it was also very much really like working with what we had and and um magnifying the good no matter what, you know, and it was lovely, it was fun, and I like when I run into people from that time and we'll kind of just chat about how sort of sweet it was and um how different it is now. But after some years of doing that work and and really, I was really uh out and about a lot. I was always on some stage holding a microphone, talking about things and yada yada yada. And I really loved that. Um, and I thought, well, what if I didn't only do this within the realm of Seattle? And I, you know, I I can be sort of critical of myself and go, oh, you got sort of too big for your britches. You wanted like the next best thing or whatever. Um, but more generously, I can say, yeah, I just was ready for um what else could happen. And so I ended up going over to Nordstrom, you know, the large retailer uh based here in Seattle, um, like everybody else at that time, really emphasizing online media. And um I was hired to do um online storytelling for designer brands, and that turned into um also working with Olivia Kim, who at that time was VP of Creative. She has a different job now, but um and she was just about to come out with space, which just kind of the coolest thing that was happening at that time in retail, this shop within a shop about um emerging designers, and she wanted it to be really content-focused.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I mean, when I read this in your bio, I was so impressed that you were part of this. And for any listeners that aren't native to the fashion industry, I mean, what Laura's role there and working in this department called space and working under Olivia Kim. I mean, this was probably the coolest content job in fashion that existed in this time. Like it's just so sweet. And not only was it a cool content job in fashion, but also to be in a department store. And I'm someone that loves the idea that when you're in a in a more mass space, in a more mass retailer, you get to speak with real people in a way that maybe in the luxury business or in the higher end brands, you're not really talking to the mass market in that way. So I love that you're you were in such a prolific job, especially calling it your best, worst job, just felt really resonant to me when I read about that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. I I know. Sometimes I'm like, was it my worst? Was it the worst, best job ever? Was it the best, worst job ever? You know, splitting hairs a little bit there. But man, that job was it was pretty crazy. I um I one of the big things that I did was go to Fashion Week twice a year for Nordstrom and specifically for space more and more as time went on. Um skipped Milan, so that was kind of cool, but it was New York, London, Paris. And at that time, hashtags were like a thing. And and I my hashtag was Fashion Week is really a month. And and it was like people, everybody knew it. They're like, oh, there goes Laura again, Fashion Week's really a month. And but that I was just like on this, you know, a month-long haul of city to city, and and and you're you're going to shows all day and then filing stories all night. And yeah, like there are so many worse things than that. But it also wore me down big time. And and towards the end, I was like, God, this is not actually helping anybody. Like I would, I would stand in these throngs of people waiting to get into this beautiful venue in Paris. Um, and you're right. I working for a mass retailer like that, I mean, I it's still kind of funny to me. I was front row at these seats at these shows. So wild. Yeah. And I was doing tons of street style stuff, which was super fun. Meaning, like I was getting photographed. And it, but but I would be so dead tired at the end of the day. And, you know, you cannot find like a plain plate of steamed broccoli anywhere in Paris. You're just eating like croissants for the 10 days, and I can't, I can't eat like that for 10 days. And it just was like taxing in this way, physically, but then also kind of spiritually, because I'm just like more and more like all of these people, all of this energy, all of this money, all of this attention, and we're we're not helping anybody, we're hurting people, you know? And um I just had to kind of walk away from it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I always think about this cycle, right? Like it's it's hard to describe to people when you've been working because the opportunities are so tremendous, and you're getting to see the world and you're getting to, you know, eat in these restaurants and go to these shows. And like you said, you're wearing these beautiful clothes. You know, this is the beginning, I would say, of when street style was so prolific. It was depressing. But you are really contributing to this cycle and promoting this cycle not only within yourself and within your job, but in in the world of fashion where it's like the next, the next, the next, which it's burnout city. Like that, that's a it's a really difficult thing that I deeply relate to.
SPEAKER_00:Yep. Yep. And I, you know, I I feel bad sort of maligning it or whatever, but this was just my experience. It was, it just got to be too tough for me, you know. So um I I bowed out and that felt like a good thing to do. And I sort of went from the, what's that saying? From the something, from the something to the frying pan. How does that go? From the fire to the frying pan or something like that. Um, I traded one kind of deeply difficult scenario for another. I went to work for at the time Russell Wilson was the kind of star quarterback of the Seattle quarterback? Fact check me there. He was the star whatever of the Seattle Seahawks, and his wife, Sierra, was about to kind of make her come back. Of course, she's come back. You know, I look at her social media anyway. I went to work for them doing um content again. I was kind of, I was essentially Sierra's like multimedia ghostwriter, and I was like helping her create all kinds of content for this app that they were doing. They they they raised bazillions of dollars and like record high investors on for this app project. Um and it was fun and I liked getting a window into their world, but I've never known burnout like that because those two they would call me like 11 o'clock on a Saturday night and like, oh Laura, we have this great idea. I I just learned to dread the idea of either of them having a great idea because they always came at midnight on a Saturday. And you know, it just it was it was really tough. That was huge burnout for me. But then the app didn't work. I mean, you we could have predicted that. It was the era of celebrity apps, and none of those really took off, you know? So I kind of got saved by that. Um, and and that's when I sort of hit some um a big reset, a big like personal evaluation, and what am I doing with my life? Which is a great thing to be able to ponder when you're getting um unemployment checks.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it it sounds like from your bio that the pandemic was a major turning point, too. What happened then and what were you aspiring to do? And how did you move toward the direction of funeral and death work from there?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So my best friend and I did about a year or so of running a little creative agency, and that it was going okay. Um, but really strangely, before the pandemic, like weeks before the pandemic, we got together and we're like, what are we doing? Is this going right? Are we doing it right? Is there something else we want to be doing? And I said, you know, I love helping people with their brand content and all that, but I wish we were more closely working with the people themselves because they are bringing so much of themselves to this. And I wish our work was more personal. I was like, maybe I should get like uh maybe I should do like personal coaching training or something. But I just said it. We were like in an Airbnb in California somewhere, and then the pandemic hit, and I was like, oh yeah, maybe I should just like study this idea of personal coaching. Took me a really long time to find somebody to study that with. There's so much out there that just seems like so insanely mediocre that I was like, no, no, no. Um, found um a trio of black women in North Carolina that do this pretty cool. Um, they're they're from Penn State, which is like the home of positive psychology. And they they they teach about coaching from a positive psychology foundation. And it was awesome. And I felt really good about supporting them and their work, and I really liked how they approached everything. And then it took me a little while to figure out how I wanted what was my spin on that. So back some years, I had gone through a string of really impactful deaths, which is a common story. It's how so many people get into death cares. You go through it yourself, and you're like, wait a second, what just happened? And at a certain point, I had tried to access grief work and again some pretty mediocre stuff. And and so I was had this filed away in my mind, like the grief work landscape is wanting. And and some friends of mine were like, well, so you should do it. You should like you should offer grief work then, if you know, figure out like a better way to do it. And so I kind of like took the stuff that I had learned from trying different things and reading different books and came up with my own kind of framework. You know, no, there's no sort of governing body out there putting in a stamp on anybody's grief work offerings. It's just kind of open, open field on that. Um, and so after a little bit of convincing, I felt okay just coming up with my own um offering in that world. So I was doing that for a while, and again, it was that sense of well, what do I wish I was doing more of? I wished I was doing more of that. And strangely, along came this job at a funeral home near my house, like it was sort of really easy commute. Um, the job itself was like very low pay and no prestige whatsoever. I wasn't gonna be creating and directing anything. I was just gonna be like helping with funerals. But I I wanted to try it. And it was only part-time, so I could do that and then do this other stuff. And I told my partner, I was like, let me just try this. I need let me just like stick with me here. Um, and and and that was really that sense of when I would stop and pause and take stock of things, like, what do I want to be doing more of? Oh, I I want to be doing more funeral work. It was a kind of this big funeral home where kind of a funeral factory, like every day, just funeral after funeral would kind of cycle through, and we would do some stuff that was off site. And um, so I got exposed to so much stuff. And a lot of my day was just standing next to whomever had lost their best person, trying to figure out what do you need right now? How can I help you? And as time went on, the funeral directors themselves were like, oh, normally we have like these 24-year-olds in this role, but here's this other person, Laura, and she's different. We can actually probably just clock out early and leave her to, you know, finish out the rest of the day. So kind of sharing there that I did a lot more than I probably should have because the funeral directors knew they could, they're they're overworked people talk about burnout. So they saw an opportunity to kind of let me steer for the rest of the night or the rest of the day or whatever that was and and clock out. So I saw a lot, I did a lot, and I knew that I wanted more. And after a year of that, I sent a note to recompose, kind of saying, here's what I've been doing, here's what I can do. Is there anything there? And it ended up, you know, just being the right moment.
SPEAKER_02:This is so beautiful. And I also think, you know, death is something that's incredibly personal to each person. What you believe in, what you, you know, your own feelings around it, your own experiences around it. Um, I can say that when I was growing up, I definitely came from a background where children weren't allowed to go to funerals, or you know, death was something that was almost secretive, right? And I know Jez has had a different experience, which I'm I'm curious, you know, how how you feel that that shaped you and your experience. I I went through many years until someone I was dating in my my late teens passed away very suddenly from leukemia. And that was the first time that all of a sudden death became something that wasn't in my immediate world and people that I knew that were my age and that it could happen to you.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean, I would love to know more about how you approach this doula work because like Jess was saying, like death is such a deeply personal experience. People come from so many different backgrounds with it, different levels of comfort. It was a really big part of my childhood because I was raised in a divination tradition, and mediumship is like a part of what I was doing as a little kid. It's the experience. So death was like everywhere when I was a kid. And um, so yeah, it just feels like you also have a deeply personal approach. You have such a fascinating trajectory from point A to point B. And uh it sounds like a Honoring people's grief and stories and experiences is a big part of what you do. Can you share a little bit about what that looks like, especially for folks who might not really understand what like life doula work or end of life coaching is?
SPEAKER_00:Sure. Yeah, yeah. I left that part out. So somewhere amid all of that, I also thought, um, let me do this end of life doula training work, which it's sometimes I try to remember, well, what did I know about that before? Or how did I what where was that on my radar? And I honestly don't even really remember. But again, I kind of went out looking for who can I learn from? Um and I went with Anelda, which is um sort of the kind of group of record that kind of um they do anybody will certify you, but there's no kind of one certifier, but they're they're a very well-known collective. And they it was started by this guy who was a social worker, and he was watching people die in hospice and things like that, and he had that kind of just light bulb moment of oh, we have these people in birth that help people into the world. We need those same kinds of people to help people out of the world. And so he was really um the one that brought all of that into culture, at least kind of culture in the quote unquote West. You know, we we know there are people that in all cultures around the world that serve in that kind of role. Um, but so I did my training with them, and I knew somehow early on that I kind of the most common way that folks approach death doula work is what is kind of called bedside companioning. You have this dying person, you're there to support the family as everybody's kind of bedside, you're there to organize the meds or you know, be the one that uh feeds the cat because nobody else has can remember to do that, or whatever those things are. It's usually really clearly classified as non-medical support, because doulas are not trained, you know, unless they're also a nurse or something. Um but I I somehow knew the whole time I was doing that training that I probably wasn't gonna do it that way. And when we sort of got to the chapter of talking about um what can sometimes be called legacy work or life writing or personal narratives, I just pricked right up. I was like, oh, this is where I might live, you know? Um, and so it just is such a natural fit for me, having like all of my journalism work, all of my stuff at Nordstrom, it was always about sure the collection, sure the store, whatever, but who is this person behind it? What are they, who are they over their years of development, you know, and what's driving them? And um, I just love people's stories. And so I just got really attracted to the idea of um being able to help people at the end of their lives to kind of come to some sort of increased amount of peace around getting their story down. And and that can be literal or it can be more conceptual, like having some kind of like let's say this person is um always did like comic books or something. Oh, what if we have this last pop-up shop here in your bedroom with all your all of your comic books and you can give them out to people, and we can it can be like a art show meets gallery, just but it's just about your favorite people and you know, just these ways of kind of doing this one last creative thing with people and in some way helping them feel like they are leaving behind something that says something about who they are. I mean, there's so much just beautiful data around how people die, how their loved ones continue living when that person has been given the chance to just talk through their life, to remember things, to say, here's what I'm really proud of, here's what I wish I could do over. Um and so that is really how I approach that work. And it's you know, it's a part of my life. It's not the biggest part of my life, but it has also um, I would say it's not the biggest part of my life because there still is so much we haven't yet wrapped doula work into our culture. You know, there are still people that don't quite know what that is, and many people that wouldn't imagine it would be for them, and all of these things. So it kind of sits over here quietly as this thing that happens when it happens, but it also has really informed my work at Recompose and has really helped me be who I kind of am sort of called to be in that world.
SPEAKER_01:I would love to hear more about what Recompose is. Just like so excited to dive into all the cool things you do.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you. Yeah. Recompose is pretty cool. Um, our founder is Katrina Spade, and beginning back in 2011, she just had this personal um kind of alarm clock of like, wow, our options for death care are really bad. Um, and she was in architecture school at the time, so she decided to try to find a more environmental solution. And it's now like this worldwide thing, and it all just began with her sort of, well, I got to do a senior thesis project. I think I'll do it on this, you know? And she really just put her whole life into it in those early years. And by 20 uh 19, Washington State became the first place in the world to have a legal framework, largely because of what Katrina was doing. She paved the whole way to the governor's office and had done the first ever pilot study, and she made that happen. And then she opened Recompose. So we do what we call human composting. Um, it has a couple of other names out there in the world. The law calls it natural organic reduction. Um, but one of our kind of core ideas is to speak very plainly about what we do and what death is and what people are going through. So we call it what it is. It's human composting. You know, decomposition happens out in the natural world everywhere. This time of year, just find any tree with leaves falling underneath it, and that's the process. We just, you know, we Katrina and the early teams found a way to um make that happen for people. And so the the environmental savings is huge, and the difference that it makes in people's lives is huge. Uh, I find myself talking about that more and more, that yes, the environmental savings is so important, and we need every industry to make those same kind of changes, to find their version of change. Um, but I I am just continually struck by how it shows up in people's lives. There's this beautiful positive thing happening that's so natural and that yields all this beautiful rich soil that you can, you know, plant a tree or a rose bush with or whatever that is. And it gives people something beautiful to hold on to in a time when there's not a lot of beautiful things to hold on to. So it's it's just um well, I'll pause there.
SPEAKER_02:You mentioned something around, you know, the the discomfort of of having these sorts of conversations. Do you think that the pandemic has served as a marker in any way of talking about death more than perhaps existed in the culture before that?
SPEAKER_00:I do. Yeah. I mean, I think there's a lot of us that used to say six or seven years ago, oh, we never talk about death, we don't talk about grief. I mean, sure, it's my algorithm, but my algorithm is filthy with the word grief. You know, it is everywhere in every scroll. And I don't think that's just me, you know. I think the pandemic began those conversations. I think we live in a world of so much genocide and um strife and just trauma that we're collectively feeling it. We're we're we're getting some kind of education over those social media scrolls and and whatever else. And something inside us is saying, I gotta know more about this. I don't want to hide under the covers anymore about this. And I um sometimes use a pretty weird analogy, but I I talk to a lot of people who say things like, Oh, how did you get into death care? I I'm I want to work in death care. And I'm thinking maybe after I retire, maybe I can become an end-of-life doula, or you know, these kinds of ideas. And so, you know, when like there's a tsunami or something, there's this phenomenon where long before, you know, 12 hours, 24 hours before a tsunami hits, before the earthquakes, whatever that is, the animals in that place run for the hills. The animals, the birds, they sense that something is coming and they get themselves safe. And I just feel like something like that is happening. I know that's really dark, and this is like 101 why you probably don't want to sit next to me at an otherwise fun dinner party. Um, I would definitely sit next to you. We're a safe space. I think, yeah, we we three should sit together for sure. But I just feel like there's something in us going, get ready, you know. And even if you just look at the boomer generation, you know, there's this idea of that it's called the silver tsunami, which is terrible. But that there are a lot of older people in that generation, a lot, and they're coming of age to die. So even if we just look at that generation and the increased need for end-of-life care that's happening now and will happen for the next 10 years or so. But I guess you know, it doesn't take a real genius to say that there um is likely to be more reason for more of us to have some skills and have some familiarity and have some affinity with death and dying and grief.
SPEAKER_01:That is such a helpful skill, really, because it's something that everyone is going to experience and go through, and so many people are not supported or might not have access to, you know, maybe traditional therapy or other tools, or have reasons for not feeling included in those spaces. So I I love even just the idea of talking about this more with people. What are some of your favorite and most beloved uh practices and wisdom that you like to share with people, um, especially around processing grief for the living? Because that's that's the really hard part is figuring out what to do after someone has passed. Even if you feel like they're in pizza and you have positive ideas about what the afterlife can be, it's still really hard.
SPEAKER_00:Um I think just being really present and really honest with it and open and using that experience as a time to come closer to the truth that it is going to happen for everybody. You know, when it it seems almost uh like it's not quite addressing the thing, but I I promise this is where I find the most kind of space to shift is just in really being present with it and really um moving closer to get as familiar and comfortable as you can with the fact that, excuse me, with the fact that it does happen to everybody. Um when you can start to see it as a natural part of life, you suffer a little less because for for without that peace, we end up thinking, um why is this happening to me? And it's just this world of anguish that feels like you're in this bubble. And the more that you come to understand how inevitable it is, and that everybody we love is gonna die, it's kind of like a normalizing thing where it can just um it's it's not gonna take the grief away. And and we wouldn't want that. We want to stay with the grief. Um, we want to stay with it and find what it means to us. So a lot of the grief work that I did, um you're gonna see the common thread here. It kind of um naturally found its way to some sort of creative expression project at the end of our, I called it grief mapping. And at the end of this kind of mapping process was some kind of creative project. And that could be, you know, my mom died and she always had dinner parties. I'm gonna host a dinner party in her honor. Or, you know, one of my clients wrote a beautiful small sort of chat book of memories. It's this gorgeous book, and she's got bazillions of followers, and um, she really had a platform to kind of get that out there, right? But in one way or another, finding what that that death, what death in general, what loss, what grief means to you, and and and creating something from there. And I don't mean that you need to find meaning in that person's death, they died because, not like that. I mean, what does it mean in your life for you to go through that? Um, what does it call up for you? What does it end up um having you crave or want? And what is something that you can do with that to share with others so that you're not alone in it, and so that you are daylighting it, so that you are, you know, kind of part of the part of the solution instead of part of this um continued secrecy, if you will.
SPEAKER_01:I love that creativity approach and it feels so accessible. Like, you know, I often when I think about death, I think about people's beliefs because that's um w where I hold a lot of space for the work that I do, helping people kind of navigate whatever it is that they believe. But this is such an accessible way to process the experience of grief. I just love the it feels like there's a refocus there that I feel like is really important for people.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. Thank you. Yeah, there was a couple of kind of key things in in my learning and um in my time in grief that really helped me get there. And there was one of the kind of grief work, I mean if you call it grief work, already we might be in trouble, you know. Let's not approach it as work, like let you know. I I had I really have such contradictions about that word, you know, the way we say artwork. And an artist always refers to their work, you know, it's like, oh, that's so tough, you know. I wish there was a softer word for it. But in some of the quote quote grief work that I first approached uh after my dad died, it was really about resolving your grief. And I'm like, I don't actually think anybody wants to cure or fix their grief. I think we live with it, we incorporate it, and we find a way that we can work with it, you know. Um it's it can be such a powerful inspiration. And and that it can sometimes feel uh unbelievable, but um, you know, if you're walking through it with that intention and you've got folks in your life that are helping you see um how it can be that way, it it really it really can.
SPEAKER_01:I love that. I um lost my grandmother in 2024. No, maybe 2023. I don't know what years are anymore, but uh my grandmother passed away. And we were so, so close. And I miss her every day. And every time I miss her, I always think, like, oh wow, I really loved her so much. And it's like the pain immediately like affirms how much I love her, which is actually very beautiful. And it's not that it's it's not that I'm not sad about it, of course I am, but there is um this joy that I also sometimes get from it because I'm like, oh wow, I I still just adore her. It's very sweet, actually.
SPEAKER_00:That's so beautiful, and uh yeah, I can see that and hear that, and just even through Zoom. And I think more and more people have an awareness that your relationship actually does not end with that person when they die. It can keep deepening. And you know, I wonder if you have the same experience where you'd you can it sure have conversations in your mind with her, or but also just kind of like sort of putting two and two together and like, oh, she always said this thing about this, and I knew this about her, and I never thought about it that way. You just kind of always they live inside you, you know, that it continues to go on, and it is a different relationship, but your relationship doesn't end with that person, you know, it really doesn't. Doesn't have to.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, absolutely. I think like even if I didn't um, you know, have a super strong ancestral practice where I feel like I can like, you know, pull up my tarot deck or like go into a bit of a prayer state and hear her, even then I would still feel like she was living with me because that love is so deep, you know. And that's I just I I'm so into um, you know, the pop-up idea you had. And I like it's just such a wonderful way to explore this.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Jasmina, when when your grandma died, were you kind of in proximity with her? Were you able to be with her as she was dying?
SPEAKER_01:Or yeah, I had a really strange experience. Um like yes and no. Like she she had very severe dementia at the time, and we were so, so close, but toward the end, I think it was um she was having like a very different reaction to me, which totally made sense, like medically. But I had a really strong feeling that she was terrified to die, and I had a kind of ancestral message that she was hanging on when it was time for her to go. And there's a a kind of like ritual or ceremony you can do to call the ancestors to someone to take to help them cross if it feels like they're not letting go. So I um she was at a the facility that she was in was on like COVID lockdown. Um, they had an outbreak. And so I went in at the dead of night as not. To disturb her and did the ritual at her bedside. And within a few hours, she passed away. And I could feel her check in with me, tell me she was going to cross over and then check in again and like kind of be like, okay, I got there. Thank you so much. It was so it was very intense, but I felt a little disconnected from her that last month or so of her life, which I didn't expect. I thought I would, you know, I didn't expect anything like that to happen, but I think it happened the way it needed to, because then she had a friend step in who was not triggering her, who was there all the time with her. And it was really that was a beautiful experience for them to have.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, cool. Thank you for sharing a little bit of that. Appreciate it. Yeah, thank you. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, I love how you're talking about something that's like from your culture and you're interpreting, you know, what's the best way to help with a crossover. Laura, I'm curious if you are often presented with different cultural, you know, events or rituals or anything that someone might bring to you that you then want to incorporate into your, you know, this beautiful story that you're helping create or co-create with the families at the end of life.
SPEAKER_00:You know, I wish, but but no. And I think that it's actually, you know, because I am uh such a white woman that I think the those that come to me are of a similar place culturally, and it's almost the lack of culture from which we can create our own, you know. I think instead of having those really rich traditions to kind of call on, and what does time say? Let's check what our history wants us to do. It's more like, I don't know, we got nothing. So that means we're pretty free to do whatever feels right for us. So that's kind of a one of those weird blessings wrapped in a void of like, okay, well, you know, let's let's start with zero then and work from there, you know?
SPEAKER_01:I think blessing wrapped in a void is my new favorite phrase.
SPEAKER_02:I think that might be the title of this episode as well.
SPEAKER_01:Love it. Oh, you I was wondering if there's stigma that you approach around eco-burial, speaking of traditions and things like that, and how do you how do you present that? Like, are there also barriers still to eco-burial? Because this is something that I'm super nerdy about because I want to become a tree while I'm alive and definitely while I'm dead. But um yeah, I wonder, is that also a tough thing to navigate, or do you have advice for um navigating those conversations, maybe around um family tensions around how things might be done, or just introducing it to people who are like, oh my god, human composting, what is that?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. I mean, there is definitely that. Like my own mom is kind of like, I don't know, she just the other day she said, Well, I want to let you know I went ahead and prepaid for my cremation. I know you're gonna be disappointed. And I was like, Well, I am disappointed, but that's okay, you know. Um, I I think A, we have always said, we're not saying that this is for everybody, but for those that want it, here it is. Um and in a way, um because a lot of my education and outreach work is is kind of inbound. People are curious, they they read something, they saw something, they go to our website and sign up to come in and do one of our tours or something like that. They're coming, they've they're open to it. And I go out in the world, you know, do a presentation here, there, whatever. They see it, they sign up for it, they're interested. So I don't meet as many people that are kind of like, ooh, no way, except for once a year. We do this uh at the convention center downtown. There's a home and garden show every year, right? And this is like a big draw. People all up and down the West Coast come and they're gardeners. They're they they know about composting. Um, it is wild because you cannot guess who among those that stop are gonna be like, oh, amazing, or like, oh, I already know about this, I want this, or are gonna say, oh, composting, that's for banana peels, no way, or something even slightly kind of more aggro or whatever. So at that time of year, I do hear from the ones that are just like staunchly against it. And in that regard, it comes in very handy to just kind of say, Well, that's great. You know, you should do, I firmly believe you should do whatever is speaking to you, you know. Um, I'm just really glad that there are so many people that um hear about it and just have this immediate full-body yes. And to some degree, we could kind of say, okay, well, yeah, of course, the Northwest, like y'all are just like hiking hippies up there. Well, kind of a lot of a lot of nature lovers for sure. But, you know, there are now 14 states that have this law, and in every state there was bipartisan support. So it's not just for like, you know, lefty granola heads, it really is about choice and about um the environment and about people that never really felt like it made sense to take up space in a graveyard or didn't really like the idea of being embalmed. Um, that's another thing. When people want to talk to me about composting being gross, I don't say this because I am a professional, but if you want to talk about something being gross, let's talk about embalming. That's not an ungross thing in any way. So, you know, but it's you you're just working with whatever that person knows in that moment. And and I, you know, taking the high road, it's the best way to go. And um I I one thing that does happen in my role, one of the things in my role that I do in addition to education and outreach is I worked with a group of clients that we call um eminent. We have something that we call the eminent pathway. And we noticed that a lot of people were calling us saying, not, you know, my person died, you know, can can you help? But um, my person just entered hospice, they're going to die. I need to know what to do, you know. Um, and and when we realized how very many people were coming to us, kind of almost could be six months ahead of time, we said, oh, there's probably another way that we can support those people. And with my background, I, you know, really was fortunate enough to be asked to kind of figure that out. So I have just this beautiful honor of being able to help those people that are eminent. And something that does happen is actually find it so beautiful when the dying person themselves is like, I read about this, this is what I want. A love when they're able to choose it for themselves and know that they have it. Um that that's you know what their pathway will be. But sometimes they'll say, you know, these other people in my family are not quite sure. And so those folks will come in, you know, just maybe it's three, four, five of them. And I'm not convincing them, I'm just showing them what we do, I'm showing them our spaces, talking about what it is and how it works. And it just brings the temperature way down. First of all, our spaces are so beautiful, and the process is so natural, and it's really hard to kind of fight against it anymore when you understand what it is. And so that's a really um beautiful way to help that dying person really achieve what they want and bring that family together so that everybody does feel really good about it.
SPEAKER_01:That sounds like such a gentle approach. Because yeah, I mean, as we were saying earlier, it's such a personal experience, such a personal decision. So many factors go into it from you know, belief and culture, et cetera. It makes sense that you would just be educating and showing and introducing ideas and letting people figure out how they feel about it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. It's so beautiful, all of the work that you do for other people and the energy that you're taking on. When you're able to step away from that and and really plug into yourself, what sort of tools uh do you use in your own healing or divination?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, well, um I'm really lucky to be doing psychedelic assisted therapy right now with a therapist.
SPEAKER_02:We're big fans here. Right on. We're big fans, yes.
SPEAKER_00:I think eventually we're just all gonna kind of bootstrap that as like a, you know, like a book club, you know. Like, yes, it's good for us to have that um professional help, but eventually we should be able to do that just in little cooperatives of friends, you know, to okay, here the three of us are gonna help you, and then we're all gonna talk about it and you know, that type of thing. I really look forward to that. But um, I also have a uh somatic therapist. I got two therapists, isn't that cool? Me too. Right on, right on. And I have a really awesome partner who um, you know, he's he he we're not the same. He's not like here in all of this with me, but he's so good at um supporting me in what I'm doing and just being like he he's kind of a unicorn because he's like this incredibly like strong, um, kind of silent type, but he also is incredibly tender. So it's really sweet to be able to have that. I feel so safe with him and and also I can make him cry, you know, when I need company there, when I'm really feeling something, you know. I don't mean I can make him cry, but we can get very sensitive together. Um, and then I I do uh yeah, I have my own kind of oracle uh tarot traditions. Um, and I do a lot of like writing and creative work. Um my partner and I make music together and I do a lot of like visual collage because that can really be um just helpful when I don't have the words or can't get myself writing. I don't write as much as I used to, but maybe it's coming back online. But yeah, I was gonna tell you about my um my two favorite tarot decks because I just please do. Yeah. So do we know about this Galactic Heritage cards, these Oracle decks? This is quite out there, really. It's like that idea of like we're all kind of from some other galaxy and universe, and we decided to come here. And um for me, there is some comfort in thinking about it that way. And so this Oracle deck is divided into like past, present, future, and so some of the cards are about past civilizations, and some are about like this current life, and some are um about like maybe that idea of like going back to another galaxy or universe or something.
SPEAKER_01:That is so cool. I haven't seen that deck before.
SPEAKER_00:Does that feel like a familiar idea to you? Are you used to hearing people kind of talk about this sort of galaxy idea and like kind of these different universes?
SPEAKER_01:It's definitely not something I would have been raised with. I think um so much of the tradition that I grew up in um spiritually was so rooted in the earth and the our ancestors and just like very, very connected to like animism. But at the same time, I definitely have a spirit guide who presents to me, and I'm like, you are definitely not of this place. And I'm like, have I been other places? I think I might have been other places.
SPEAKER_00:That's cool. Cool. Yeah. What about you, Jessica? Does it seem?
SPEAKER_02:I, you know, I'm laughing because I don't know if this is like a corollary or what, but Jasmina and I always talk about like how we experience things and they're so earthy, and they're like, everything's made of mushrooms. And I'm like, time is like a not real construct. Like, I you know, I'm so like air and water. So to me, it's like, oh, a hundred percent, like, you know, it's just like wherever we came from is definitely not this place that we're in right now, and we're truly living in the strangest timeline.
SPEAKER_00:That's that's the thing. That's the thing, you know, where I'm like, well, how did we what are we doing? Like it, you know, there are some days that it just feels so like the the metaphor of a video game or something like that. It just feels like, yeah, I guess that's what's happening. Yeah, I have a can't be.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, the the the theories of time and and really like going from timeline to timeline, it to me feels so native and and like duh, of course, that's true. So I can see that with places as well. And yeah, yeah. Before I go too far down a road.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:What's your other deck that you have?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, the other one is very niche. There's an artist here in Seattle, their name is Leon Finley, and they did this Cro Cosmic Tarot, and it like couldn't be more different. This is it is very all of the um, oh, I should have brought the cards in because they're beautiful, but um, they're all just these watercolor abstract illustrations. And Leon changed all the kind of suits and and characters to these more sort of loving, open, totally non-binary, kind of a lot of times non-human archetypes, and it's it's so loving. Like you can't, there's no way you can draw a card that's um bum you out in that deck, and it's just so like so. I usually draw one of each. Um, kind of give me a place in the universe, and then affirm all of my softness and help me, you know, frame for the day. So you love that.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, I have to check out both of these decks. That sounds so rad.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I don't know how easy it would be to find Leon's deck, but definitely um see if you can find it, even just to look at the cards because they're so beautiful.
SPEAKER_01:I love tarot art and oracle art.
SPEAKER_00:It's like my favorite thing. That's your favorite. What's you you probably have many decks. I mean, I have others too, but what are your go-tos?
SPEAKER_01:I um I very much go based on my mood and who I'm reading for because I read for others so often. Um, I have that's really cute, like Mystic Mondays deck for when I read for kids, because it looks everything looks like candy and everything is so adorable. And I take out like the devil and the death card just in case they're like little, little. But you know, so I and then um so it really it's hard for me to pick a favorite because it's so situational. But I am designing a deck with my um co-author Paulina Stevens and our artist, um Robin. And this is very rapidly becoming my favorite deck because I tell Robin what we want, and then she makes it even better than we imagined, but it won't be out for a minute. But I'm just like so obsessed with this process. So it's like Robin is my favorite artist right now.
SPEAKER_00:Cool. What about you, Jessica? Do you have a tarot?
SPEAKER_02:I actually so my favorite deck will be Jasmina's when that comes out, of course. But in the meantime, um, an artist that I work with who goes by Moon Jube um did the collage artwork for my website. Um, she had done the artwork for the Mary Magdalene Oracle deck with uh Megan Waterston. I don't know if you're familiar with that, and I just love that type of like uh, you know, vintage-looking collage art. And so she just released her tarot deck this year. So I've been working with that, and it's just so beautiful because then there's all of these other sorts of um imagery and and different symbols that are within each of the cards, but you have to check it out. It's so, so beautiful, especially if you like that vintagey kind of 1920s feeling collage art is so beautiful and cool. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:That's awesome. I I want to check that out. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And actually, I was gonna say Oracle Deck. Is Kiki from Seattle?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, well, yeah, I think so. I was just gonna say, actually, we were about to say the same thing. The Living Altar uh Oracle Deck by Kiki Robinson and Ilva Mara Rajzewski. And they're two um queer trans Romani creators, and it's like this beautiful collage deck, and it's um it's also you can use it as like a spell oracle, and you can the spells out loud, and they're really lovely. And I also am obsessed with the Hudo tarot that was um created by Tyana Lee McQuer, who was born into a hoodoo tradition and illustrated by um Oromani uh indigenous artist Caitlin Foise, who's a good friend of mine, and we've also interviewed Caitlin. And um, yeah, so those are those are also two faves.
SPEAKER_00:Cool. Yeah, you gotta have lots of faves when it comes to tarot decks. Yeah, I'm looking at this uh Living Altar on the web.
SPEAKER_02:I that deck is incredible. I it's it's so powerful, I think. You know, also like right up your alley, Laura. I feel like it's great. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:What's the best way for people to support your work, work with you, take your workshops? Like, how do you want people to find you and and share what you do?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, thank you. I do have a Substack, it's called Grievers Ball. Um, idea being I wanted to celebrate Grievers. And um I I went at that like full steam ahead for a while and then really had petered out recently. And I I want people to sign up for my Substack. I took subscriptions off, it's just free for now because I I haven't been posting. And it is cute. There are other people that recommend, you know, that Substack has that system of recommending, and so on this regular basis I get more and more subscribers. I'm like, oh you guys, I'm sorry. I don't like I haven't posted in a really long time. But I want to, and my intention is there. Um when I think about support, um gosh, I hope this doesn't sound disingenuous. I think that we all support each other just by like really leaning into our own communities and and being the kind of friend that we need to others. And I just feel like that um strengthens all of us. You know, I I'm not really selling anything right now. I'm not I I do I do workshops and following me on Instagram is cool. I think if people are interested in environmental death care, please go check out Recompose and you know we do virtual tours as well. I lead those also and would love to have people join and learn about Recompose no matter where you are. But I think about supporting each other just by all of us kind of being the best friend that we can be in our own lives and trusting that that has some kind of um kind of collective ripple sort of effect. That's beautiful.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, we'll definitely put the um links in the in our show notes too, so people can easily follow you and visit Recompose.
SPEAKER_02:Yes. And I do I do want to say, you know, even if you're not necessarily looking for more business or trying to promote yourself, I think that everything that you've said here, we we talk about curiosity a lot. And I think it opens a nice conversation for people that have a curiosity and want to speak to someone that don't necessarily know who to talk to about some of these very, very big questions. So thank you for for being that for people, for sure.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. Thanks for saying that. And I I am in a quieter period. I am not posting a lot on social media, you know, nor the Substack, like I mentioned, but who knows when that's gonna come, when that's gonna shift. And I hope that it does. I I really, I really just feel so grateful for all of the conversations that I've been able to be a part of and the platforms that I've been given. And when I um when I have those moments, I'm just like, wow, I got to do so many cool things. And it's the conversation, like living in that conversation and being able to host and share and be a part of those conversations that really just can can kind of blow me over with with gratitude of how cool that is to be a part of that. And I I do imagine that more of that is is coming for me. Um and there are probably people that will say that I'm not as quiet as I think I am, but um, yeah, so without a lot of false promises, it would it's great if folks want to kind of you know join in circles and and be around and and I hope that we can all kind of keep connecting.
SPEAKER_01:Well, thank you so much. This was such a pleasure, and um, I feel like I uh my interest in eco burial has been renewed, and now I have more things to Google and stare at and right on.
SPEAKER_00:Take a take a virtual tour with me sometime. Yeah. They're very easy to sign up for on the Recompose website. Thank you so much for having me, you two. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you.
SPEAKER_00:Appreciate how you're how you're doing these and and that you're showing up and um having these conversations, and I really appreciate being a part of it. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, thank you.
SPEAKER_03:That's the other sick one. Come beat me in the death material work. Divide in the material work. The material world. The item world.
SPEAKER_02:Immaterial world is hosted by Jessica Richards and Jasmina Bonkilla. Music by Dia Luna. Artwork by Lane Friend. Follow us at Immaterial World Pod on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube. Visit our website at www.immaterial dashworld.com. Or send us an email at Immaterial World Podgmail.com. Thank you for being part of our immaterial world.
SPEAKER_01:Welcome to the immaterial world.