Immaterial World

FWD JOY with Chrissy Rutherford

• Jessica Richards and Jezmina Von Thiele • Season 1 • Episode 14

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 1:03:36

Chrissy Rutherford is a writer, speaker, content creator, and mental health advocate committed to fostering honest conversations about well-being in the digital age. With over 15 years experience in fashion and media, she now uses her platform to destigmatize mental health struggles, share personal stories, and champion vulnerability as a powerful tool for connection.

In 2021, she launched FWD JOY, a personal development newsletter that has cultivated a loyal readership exploring topics like anxiety, self-worth, relationships, spirituality, and the pursuit of joy.

In this episode, Chrissy chats curiosity + how it inspires us in all parts of life, from style to spirituality; conscious consumerism; a love of astrology + living our charts, plus so much more. 

This episode is sponsored by WEISER BOOKS: Enter code IMMATERIAL30 at checkout for 30% off your purchase between December 30, 2025 and March 31, 2026

Visit https://redwheelweiser.com/ for a complete list of titles and creators. 

For more about Chrissy visit:

https://chrissyrutherford.com/fwdjoy

Instagram: @fwdjoy + @chrissyford


Become an Immaterial World supporter!

Hosted by Jessica Richards and Jezmina Von Thiele

For bookings and for more about Jessica visit: www.the12th.house and Instagram: @jessicaxrich 

For bookings and for more about Jezmina visit: www.jezminavonthiele.com and Instagram: @jezmina.vonthiele

Music and editing by DIA LUNA

Instagram: @dialunamusic

Artwork by Lane Friend 

Instagram: @friendlane

Support the show

SPEAKER_01:

Hey and material world listeners. We know you're resolving to more personal exploration, curiosity, and spiritual wellness in 2026. So we're excited to announce the kickoff of our partnership with WiserBooks just in time for the new year.

SPEAKER_02:

Wiser works with so many creators and with titles across spirituality, relationships, mysticism, mindfulness, and more, you'll certainly find alignment with what's next for you in your journey.

SPEAKER_01:

For those in the immaterial world, use code immaterial30 at checkout at redwheelwiser.com, linked in the show notes. That's immaterial 30 for 30% off your purchase through the end of March. Happy exploring.

SPEAKER_02:

A new year gives us the opportunity to welcome our desires and set out our intentions of how to move forward towards goals. But as the early weeks of January come to pass, too often we abandon resolutions, never giving them the anchoring needed to flourish through the year.

SPEAKER_01:

As winter is a time of energy conservation and preparing for what's ahead, let's take an evening to come together in a community ritual, ground into our intended achievements with purpose, and build actionable next steps using astrological touch points in the months to come.

SPEAKER_02:

On January 18th, join us alongside Immaterial World guest and friend astrologer Valerie Mesa for Make It Happen, a digital ritual to move forward with confidence and determination, set in alignment with Mercury conjunct Mars, as well as a new moon in Capricorn. Through an intention-setting ceremony, you will acknowledge your goals for 2026, empower them with resolve, and actively set next steps on your calendar to continue building towards what you desire.

SPEAKER_01:

Attendees will be led through a series of interactive exercises, including community tarot, journaling prompts, and ritual to acknowledge their highest intentions for the new year, guided meditation to intuitively tap into any messages meant to carry them through what's next, and chatting early 2026 astrology to calendarize the next steps in alignment with the energy of upcoming transits. Link in show notes for more and to register. See you there.

SPEAKER_04:

So I've been talking to a friend a lot recently about leaning into cringe and how he's been challenging himself to do something cringe every day. And this is funny for me because I don't really ever think that being authentic or showing vulnerability or being a little silly is cringe. I'm pretty whimsical. So there's not a lot that makes me uncomfortable. But recently I did something that I could classify as cringe, which was I went into the comments section of a post that our guest had made about trading their therapist for a tarot reader. And I said, Oh my God, you have to come on immaterial world. Okay, so that's a little bit.

SPEAKER_00:

I just I was like, I read that story. What are you talking about?

SPEAKER_04:

And people can see that. People can see that I did that, but look where it led, look where we are today, because being cringe gets you places.

SPEAKER_00:

Also, closed mouths don't get fed. Right.

SPEAKER_04:

Right. So this is someone that I've followed for years in fashion, uh, for styling, for you know, all kinds of um guidance in that industry. So our guest is not really a stranger to me. And when Jez and I were concepting our podcast, she was on a list of dream guests that I had because, like me, and I don't know her personally yet. So we're gonna hear her story a little bit more in depth today. But she comes from the world of fashion, but has always injected astrology and divination and spirituality into how she moves in the world. And now she also has built out a platform around this called Forward Joy. So we're gonna talk about these topics and more. I am so fucking excited to welcome to Immaterial World, Chrissy Rutherford. Chrissy, thank you for being here today.

SPEAKER_00:

My eyes are like tearing up, you know. So I'm like straight to my Pisces heart. Right.

SPEAKER_04:

I was I was gonna say, as a fellow Pisces, like I don't think we know what cringe actually is.

SPEAKER_00:

Listen, I like I cringe at myself all the time. Like I'm uh I am like so earnest on the internet, and I just like uh I don't care. Yeah, it's and it like also it just like it passes. Like that's the thing is like I try not to hold on to things. Like, sure, you can feel cringe, but like just let it go. It's fine.

SPEAKER_01:

My Pisces Moon gives me that power too. I think it's a good thing. You just have to be authentic and move forward.

SPEAKER_00:

It's okay. And like what's cringe to me might not actually be cringe to like some viewers, maybe it's cringe to a lot of people. Like it just is what it is. We're never gonna make everyone happy.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, I think a lot of people just can't imagine being that authentic and vulnerable. So let's say cringe cringe is out for 2026.

SPEAKER_00:

I know I posted on I posted on threads like earlier this year, maybe last year. I wrote, I am earnest, but I am free. You know? Like I like that. And I really am. So it like, trust me, guys, it works.

SPEAKER_01:

What was the catalyst to knowing that where you were in your, you know, your older life was not in alignment anymore? And what was the catalyst to making that change? And were they separate instances?

SPEAKER_00:

So like leaving my former fashion career. Um you know, sometimes I think it's just like that little whisper in the back of your mind that is like you're meant to do more. Like you're meant for more than this. And like I'm a Capricorn moon. So unfortunately, like since high school, I have felt that I was meant to do great things with my life. Like that has always been hanging over me. I just like I knew that about myself. I'm like, I'm I I don't know exactly what I'm gonna do, but I'm going out there and I'm gonna make something of myself. Um, and listen, I you know, I've talked about this obviously so many times, but like my job at Bazaar was my dream job. Like I loved that job so much. I worked there for almost nine years. Not to mention I'd also interns there for two summers while I was in college. So um, like that brand felt like me and I felt like that brand. And so walking away from it was also really incredibly hard. But, you know, there is also like there's the fashion that people see, and then there's like the corporate side of it that nobody sees unless you're on the inside. And there was just like a lot of corporate politics that were going on that I just like I could not get on board with. And so I knew I I had to leave.

SPEAKER_04:

Do you mind actually like giving a little bit of a cliffs notes of your uh, you know, sort of high school, college into the fashion industry trajectory, and then you know, sort of where you are now?

SPEAKER_00:

Um so I would say by the time I was in middle school, like I knew that I wanted to work in fashion. Like I just grew up always loving clothes and loving shopping. Um and then magazines, like my dad would bring magazines home for me. And I like it came to the point where I was like studying them, like cover to cover, like analyzing all the ads. And it's so funny because a friend of mine that actually I made via live journal. Shout out to Live Journal if anyone remembers that.

SPEAKER_04:

This is the third time live journal has come up on the show.

SPEAKER_00:

I was also just talking about it the other night with my brother and his daughter, because I was like, I was always meant to be yapping online, like I was always meant to be putting my innermost thoughts online because I was doing that when live journal launched. And so Live Journal had this like big fashion community. So many people in it are actually working in fashion right now. Um, and so this one girl that became like one of my closest friends, like we would talk on the phone all the time. And like when new magazines arrived in the mail, we would get on the phone and literally go page by page and talk about like the ads and what we liked and what we didn't like, and like analyze, you know, the editorials, like everything. I was so like deep into it. Like style.com, it's fashion week. I'm clicking through every runway look. Like I have like a photographic memory for some, you know, collections that I was looking at in like the year 2000 that just are ingrained in my mind. And so, you know, I had no idea what it was like to work at a fashion magazine or how I was even like gonna get there. Um, although like a really weird side story is like my dad, my so my dad is a reason why I ended up at working at Harper's Bazaar and ended up at Hearst because my dad is a painter, not the artist kind, like the house kind. And he works for a company in the city and they do a lot of like construction work in commercial spaces in New York City. And so for years, my dad was actually assigned to Hearst buildings. Like, so before the Hearst Tower, Hearst had like four or five buildings like all over the city. So my dad was the reason why I was getting all of these magazines, you know, he would bring home the cosmopolitans. And my mom's like, why are you bringing these home for her? Um, Harper's Bazaar, Marie Claire, like even good housekeeping, everything. And so my dad is like very personable. He's a tourist with a Leo Rising, and so he always makes friends, like no matter where he goes. So even though he's not very important in the building, he, you know, becomes friendly with important people in the building. So when I needed an internship, you know, he asked someone who then like connected him with someone, and then, you know, I met with, I think I met first with a woman that worked at good housekeeping, and she was like, Okay, you clearly want to work in fashion, so like I'll connect you with HR. And then I got, and they just asked me, like, what magazine do you want to intern for? And I was like, Harper's Bizarre, because that was always my favorite. Um, and so that's how I got my internship. And like, even I went to, I know, I went to college in Connecticut. I majored in communication, like I didn't really want to go to fashion school. I knew that what I wanted to do was really just based on taste and like having the experience. And I just always knew that I had taste. Like I was never something that I questioned about myself.

SPEAKER_04:

I I love this, and I just have to say that I also I have a degree in magazine journalism because at the time I got that, that was actually going to be a job that is maybe not a job now. Fairly. I remember saying, um, I looked at Vogue back then and I said, I want to be the person that picks that item that's on last look on the last page of that was kind of my thinking too.

SPEAKER_00:

I like, I didn't want to be a writer, actually. I would say I want to be the person that picks the clothes that go in the magazine, which is a market editor. Yes, I love that. So, you know, and it's so interesting because, you know, going into my first internship, they're like, it's uh it's a boot camp, like it's really hard. And I was the intern for the fashion director and her assistant, and they oversaw the French and Italian, basically the European markets in general. And like she was really tough. She, Nicole Fritton, she knows, like everyone knows, but she's really lovely and she's still working at Bazaar to this day. And um, you know, I'm like everything that I learned about like how to be professional and how to read a room and like navigate those spaces, I learned as an intern. And I think also that internship was so vital because I think a lot of us think that it's it would be really fun to work in fashion. And like I'm the first one to say, like, it is not fun, it's a lot of work, and you have to, I think like most jobs, right? It's like you have to really love it, love it to want to be in it because it's not just like, oh, I get to play dress up in the closet and then I go to events and and this. And you think that as you get hired and you move up the ranks, you think it gets easier, but it actually never does. Like, sure, you might not be treated like shit, like if you're an intern, but the work is still getting piled on top. You have more and more responsibility. It never gets easier.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, and I love that because I think that people who haven't worked in fashion or adjacent to fashion, you know, they they see that beauty, they see that glamour, but there's also a number of stereotypes that exist in fashion, and they exist for a reason. And one of them is there's a really slim margin, and this is just my opinion, but a slim margin of how people are expected to show up and what they're supposed to aspire to, and it it's really heavily centered on aesthetic for sure. And so when I look at you as someone who uh comes into the world in such an authentic way, in a vulnerable way, you know, that's so attractive for someone like me that that's in fashion and never really showed up in those expectations. So, you know, where does it come from to break from this and say, you know, that's not really who I am, and that's not really what what I'm about. So I'm going to come from this place of true personal curiosity and maybe like try out things that others aren't trying or show up in ways that others are not showing up as.

SPEAKER_00:

I don't know. I think it's just like so innate in me. I don't because I just I don't think it's not something that I had to, I think, learn to do. I think I'm someone who is extremely driven and I know that like whatever I want, I can have it as long as I go after it. Like, sure, maybe not every single thing, but for the most part, I'm like, the things that I want and I go after, I get them.

SPEAKER_04:

Pisces delusion. It will work every time. Right. Because you believe, you know, how could this not be possible for me? And so when you go into it with that, that direction, and Jez and I talk about this all the time. So it's it's that delusion that if you think it's for you, then you will find the way for that to open up for you.

SPEAKER_00:

Like completely. And I just like the whole imposter syndrome thing, I'm like, miss me with all of that because I don't, I'm like, I can't relate. I really can't. Like I because I'm always I'm putting in the work. So it's like if I'm getting even at bizarre, it's like if I'm getting promoted or if I'm in different rooms than I used to be, I know I deserve to be there. I never question whether I deserve something. I'm like, I deserve anything that I want. I love it. So important.

SPEAKER_01:

So, what is your relationship to fashion now with your career? And how do you choose aligned partnerships now? Like, what are the standards of collaboration that people have to meet to work with you?

SPEAKER_00:

I know, I think it's it's tricky. I like I love that now I get to choose how I'm involved in the industry because I'm not an editor anymore. And um, you know, even the transition of like okay, editor into sort of influencer, and you know, influencer is still kind of like this umbrella term that holds like a lot of different types of people. And so, you know, it's like I never get offended if someone calls me an influencer, but at the end of the day, I still consider myself like a fashion industry professional because I worked in magazines for over 10 years. So I'm like, put some respect on my name, please. Um, and you know, the transition has also been easy in the sense that like I came into the partnership game with all the connections. Like I already know all the brands. Um, and so that's been really nice because I get to work with some of my dream brands in a way that I never even imagined that I would be able to. And so, you know, I think it can be tricky because obviously, like being an influencer, one of the hardest things is this concept of having to promote something new constantly. And something I've tried to do when I have longer-term partnerships is if I can, I try to still incorporate some of the same products, like maybe it's still the same bag or the same shoe, because I just I yeah, I hate that. And like I'm someone that when I when I love something, like I want to wear it all the time and I wear it to death. Like I I have the zipper boots from the row. I've had them for like six years, and I still wear them constantly. Um, you know, obviously it doesn't always work out that way, but um, that's just something I've tried to navigate, and you know, inclusivity obviously is like really, really important to me. And unfortunately, we are living in some very strange times right now. And yeah, it's important to me. And like if a brand reaches out to me, the first thing I'm gonna do is like go through their Instagram, see who else they're collaborating with, see what the models look like that they're hiring and posting. Like, just generally, like, how far do I have to scroll until I find a black person? Essentially, is the game I play. Um, and yeah, I think I'm really fortunate because also I'm quite vocal, right? Like, I talk a lot about racism in the industry and politics, the world, everything. So I do also feel like sure, that that is like classified as not brand safe for a lot of. Brands, and I'm like, that's fine, because I don't want to work with those brands anyway. I feel like the brands that I do work with, they get it. And that's why they want to work with me.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, I love this. You know, as someone who has been a trend forecaster for 20 years, I really came into this place. And the way that I approach that is more from a place of consumer sentience rather than it's all about red or you must wear a bow. It's like why red or like why a bow and talking about the sentiment that's driving it. And I've been working on so many jobs recently, especially around marketing, where I'm talking about you have to understand the real struggle that people are going through right now. And if you think that that shouldn't be translated in your marketing or you're going to ignore the horrors of the world, then you are going to miss next year. Like you have never missed ever. I personally think that people are finally starting to understand the power of their dollar and how much that shifts. Totally. I mean, look at Target. Exactly. Exactly. And I think that, you know, for people to make that choice and to actually see that choice reflected in the earnings calls. It was such an inspiration for me. I was like, yes, like the consumer needs to understand their power. Of course. So I love everything that you're saying around this. And I think for you, you know, again, going back to that influencer piece, it's like you do kind of wield a certain power of like, here's a brand that I'm working with. So there is a buy-in that I have that like I believe that it is okay for you to purchase from these brands. So absolutely.

SPEAKER_00:

And even it's funny, I was at a dinner last night and um I didn't know the woman who was seated to my left. And so we were chatting, and I was telling her about, you know, the work that I do. And so she was like, you know, when it comes to like fashion or beauty, she was like, What's your angle? And I was like, Oh, I I never really like thought about that. Um, you know, like sort of what's my point of view. But I was like, I think, I mean, personally in my life, I'm a very like conscious consumer. And I think I've communicated that to my audience. And I think in turn, I'm also building a community of people who are also conscious consumers. Like, because as I said, like I'm not someone who, oh, every time I post on Instagram, like I have to have a new outfit on. Like, I repeat stuff all the time. I'm like, you're gonna get this dress three different ways and you're gonna like it. So, you know, that's just because as as I said, like it really comes back to like when you are someone that loves clothes and you really love your clothes, you're gonna wear them over and over. So I try to buy things that I really love and like I don't really wear fast fashion. I stopped shopping at Zara and HM over 10 years ago now. You know, I think there's still kind of an argument around like, okay, the Aritzias, the J. Cruz are still sort of considered fast fashion, but I do think I don't know, are not as harmful as like a Zara and HM. So um, yeah, and just like thinking about the material composition of the clothes that I'm wearing, like I'm not paying like$600 for a polyester sweater. Like, I'm just not gonna do that. Um, so yeah, those elements are very important to me and like the way that I communicate what is worth spending money on.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, I I love that. And you know, I in my career I've also worked as a design director and I've been part of the design and product development process. And you can't walk back what you know about how things are made or what the wastage looks like or what the the toll is on the other side. And you know, people can watch documentaries, but when you're in it and you really understand like the the depth of it, it's yeah, it's hard. And and I, as an eternal optimist, hope that people again going back to that consumers understanding the power of their their dollars and how they're voting for what they want to see the future look like. It's I think brands should be a little bit more cringe and putting out their like, hey, we're gonna try something new because we really actually do want to be more sustainable, or we really, we really do want to be better in our efforts. So I'm I'm always choosing the highest timeline and hoping that that brands uh maybe want to move that way.

SPEAKER_00:

I always give the example of like Mara Hoffman, like the way that she turned her business around. And I actually interviewed her for my newsletter a few years ago because uh, you know, she went from making like neon printed bikinis to a completely like sustainable, inclusive brand. And sure, now she's like, you know, had to close down her brand. But I also think that was like a bit of a personal choice because she had been in the game for so long and maybe just needed a break, but still, she at least for the last six years of it, you know, was the kind of second generation of her brand, and it was really wild to see. And yeah, it just it requires more effort and more intention and probably a lot more money. But she's a small brand. So I'm like, if she can do it, the bigger brands can do it too. Right. It's it's totally possible.

SPEAKER_01:

If you could give consumers a little bit of a a rundown on some things that they should be conscientious or values aligned about when they're buying from a brand or patronizing a brand, what would you say? Especially people are kind of new to this idea of like, oh man, I should think about what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_00:

I know. You know, I think first it's really important to say, like, we can't always know everything that's happening at a brand. Like, and I learned such a lesson around that in 2020 as things were all kind of happening, you know, after the murder of George Floyd, and you know, something came out about reformation, and a bunch of people were in my DMs being like, you know, are you gonna talk about this? Because you talk you post about reformation, and I love that brand, I wore it all the time and truly spent my money there. Um, but then this report came out about how they were mistreating their employees and whatnot. So even though I think that they gave off a somewhat like inclusive vibe, yeah, there was still mistreatment happening behind the scenes, and like we can't know that. There's no way for us to know that. Um and you know, I think there's there is a performativity to a lot of the inclusivity, anyways, unfortunately. But some like it still helps because marketing is important and people seeing themselves is important. Um but I mean I think one of the easiest things, as I just kind of just talked about before, is like looking at the materials that your clothes are made of. There's so much crap out there. And I think when it comes especially when it comes to like winter stuff, like your knit wares and stuff like that, like you shouldn't be spending hundreds of dollars on sweaters that like are acrylic and are not even gonna be comfortable. Um and then for me, the checklist is always like I look at their Instagram, I look at their website, what do the models look like? What does the Instagram look like? It's it's pretty simple to kind of know where someone is at. Like I always think it's interesting on like a beauty level when brands pitch me like hair care products and I go on their Instagram and it's like all like blonde women are just white women. I'm like, oh my god, I'm black. Like my hair is not the same, even if it's straight, my hair is not the same. Like, what? Yeah, it's so it's actually like really baffling to me why you would be pitching this to me of all people, you know, and and then the same thing with like with skincare. I'm like, okay, yeah, but not all of our skin is the same. And so if you're trying to pitch me a product and I go on your Instagram and I don't see anyone as dark as me, that's a problem for me.

SPEAKER_04:

And we actually do have a mutual friend in your in skincare. Sophie Pavitt is someone that I wear.

SPEAKER_00:

She's an icon.

SPEAKER_04:

She was a handbag designer when I first met her. We were like little babies at a little retail job together. Yeah, that's so funny.

SPEAKER_00:

I really credit her with like completely changing my skin. Her advice. She's brilliant.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, she and that, you know, it's funny because I was going to say her her approach to skincare has always been so honest, and it's been really, you know, showing before and afters and being really clear about results. And, you know, she says face tune IRL. But I wanted to ask you a astrology question, which I feel like is a nice lead into this. With Uranus going into Gemini, do you think we're gonna see a little bit more transparency around marketing, around how people talk about brands, about what brands might try to do? Um, I'm all for like less social media criticism from keyboard warriors who don't really know the industries that they're talking about. Um, what do you think? What are we gonna see from that? More Sophies or well, here's the thing.

SPEAKER_00:

That's the this is the thing about the transits, right? Is like we actually don't really know until it starts happening. We won't ever know because you often have to live it out to to know how that transit is gonna express itself. Um, so obviously, yeah, there's gonna be like a big upheaval in the way that we communicate. Um yeah, I think it will be really, really interesting because it does feel like we're kind of like at an apex where it's like, wow, everything is terrible on like social media, on the internet right now. Like something's gotta give. So true.

SPEAKER_01:

I'm so curious about your journey into spiritual tools like astrology and you know, everything that you use for divination. Could we hear a little bit about that? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I mean, as I said, I'm a Pisces, so I I'm like, I didn't choose this life, it chose me. Um, I, you know, it started because I loved magazines and at the back of 17 magazine, YM or whatever, like everything, there was always a horoscopes page, and I just really loved being a Pisces, and it was a way that I felt, you know, I felt seen by it, and it felt like a tool to help me understand my friends. Like my best friend in in grade school was a Libra. And so I yeah, was just always really curious. Like I would collect um, like those gemstone bracelets, and I think by high school I had bought a tarot deck, even though I had no idea what I was doing with it. I still have it to this day. Um, of course, it like comes with little instructions, but it's like it's oh my god, tarot is so complicated. That's like a that's a lane I won't ever really go down. Um, I mean, at least for my for myself to learn. Obviously, I love tarot. Um and then it's so interesting because it really took me a long time before I started taking it really seriously and understanding that, like, oh, there's really more here for me to learn. Because throughout my 20s, you know, obviously I was still really into astrology, but I was just like, I read Susan Miller's monthly forecast. I would read like the horoscopes on tarot.com, and that was kind of it. Like, I didn't even know about the world of natal astrology. I it's so, I don't know, it's so fascinating to me how I never really tried to dig much deeper into it. And then like my world kind of got blown open the first time I had my birth chart read, and it was actually at like a press preview. One of my colleagues, one of my colleagues was there and she texts me and she's like, You gotta come to. I was in the office, and she was like, You gotta come to this preview. There's an astrologer here doing chart readings, and I was like, Oh shit, say less. I'm like, I'm getting in a cab and I'm coming downtown. Um, and the astrologer was Rebecca Gordon, who has now been my astrologer for like 10 years, and literally she was just giving 10-minute readings. We were in like the back of the showroom. We were in this little room, but there were still like clothes lining the room. So like people are, you know, coming in to see the to see the clothes, and like she's kind of like, you know, whispering my reading to me, and I'm like in tears. Oh, I love this. I'm in tears because she just like again like made me feel seen in a way that I had never felt before, and you know, really spoke to I think some things about my existence that just felt like really heavy on my heart. And um, I was like, oh my god, I I need to know more. And I think within a couple weeks I went to see her for like a full reading. Like, I I record all my readings, so I still have my first reading. That was also a big part of why like I started my newsletter, and we'll get to that. Um and it just fucking rocked my world. It was so fascinating, and it just gives you this feeling of like, oh, okay, there's actually nothing wrong with me. There this is just this is just the way I was born. It's just in my blueprint, yeah. It's just the way that I was born. And and so what I always say like about natal chart readings, is like I think it really helps you to like own the parts of you that that are your strengths and for your perceived weaknesses, they get reframed as like there's nothing wrong with you. It's just like this is part of the challenge that you're meant to overcome. This is part of your journey. And like nothing is like a death sentence, like you can transcend a lot of this stuff. And I feel like in my chart, I have transcended a lot of the sort of like negative aspects, but it it's just it's amazing.

SPEAKER_04:

This makes me laugh because I with my astrologer, she always says to me, like, wow, you really live out your chart. Like every time, every time I talk to you, you're doing the thing. Like it's like you just like stop and pivot. And it's so true. And I look at my own daily transits, I look at like the transits of significant times in my life. And I will also say I too, I like really do truly live out my chart. But I want to say something that I love about how you talk about astrology. I think about like an Instagram story you did at one point that stuck with me where you were like, you know what? Uh relationships are not really in my astrology right now. So that's not my number one priority. It doesn't mean that I'm not gonna date. It doesn't mean that I'm not gonna like go out there and like have a great like fifth house like existence, but it does mean that that's like I just don't think that that's happening for me right now, which to me that just feels like so refreshing that you're not centering like what you want. You're really working with astrology in that way. So, how how has moving in the world in that way like been maybe lighter for you? Or how does that feel?

SPEAKER_00:

Like, what transit was that? I think that may have been during the last the last set of nodes, like Aries, Libra. I was like, that's that transit's not giving me a damn thing. Me too. That transit's not giving me a damn thing because I'm an I'm a Taurus North node, so I had just gone through my nodal return and came up empty-handed out of that. So it's like, so I know Aries and Libra is definitely not giving me anything. That's my 12th and 6th house. Um and yeah, but it it's nice that like, yeah, you can just you can still go about your life and whatnot, and it just kind of takes the pressure off of um off of things. But sorry, what was that? What was your actual question?

SPEAKER_04:

I was saying, you know, how does having this information because it sounds like you meet with Rebecca on a regular basis and you sort of know what's coming up for you, you kind of can shift your priorities, or maybe you don't see it as shifting priorities, but how are you working with the knowledge that you're getting from your readings and how you approach like So I only get I only get one reading a year, but obviously I know my own chart, so I can look at my transits, but I honestly I try not to.

SPEAKER_00:

Um I try not to look at them too much. It's like obviously I have an idea because I know where the planets are, so I do know what areas of my chart are being activated. I'm more likely to follow the moon cycle. I talk about this all the time. Like I'm obsessed with tracking the moon because um I think especially like as I'm very sensitive. So it's like even if I don't actually, you know, I don't wake up thinking like, oh, the moon's here, the moon's here. But sometimes as I'm like going through my day and I'm like, why is this happening? Or why does this feel so hard? And then it like clicks in, and I'm like, oh, that's right, because the moon, like the moon and Aries transit just like totally fucked me up because it's my 12th house. Um, and then like literally as soon as the moon moves into Taurus in my first house, I'm like, oh, I'm a brand new bitch. Like I can take on the world. It's so crazy, but I'm very sensitive. And then again, like moon and Gemini is really hard for me because my Chiron is there. And so that first day of Moon and Gemini, like I feel depressed.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_00:

So it's like I'm very, like, it's almost like very up and down, like manic. But it really helps me figure out like when I can be like when I know I'm gonna be really productive, when I'm gonna feel like a bit more social, when do I just need to like push through something, and when do I just like need to kind of call it a day, throw the towel in, it's okay, like take it easy. Um, so I love, yeah, I love tracking the moon cycle. But yeah, as far as like the other transits of my chart, I do really like to go back and look at what were the transits happening when major things happened in my life. I actually have like a Word document that I started um going back to like when I first had uh when I had my first panic attack, because it's that's like that's where you really see like the magic of how astrology plays out. Cause as I said again and I will say over and over, it's like you don't actually know how a transit is gonna play out. And so, and I'm prone to overthinking. So that's why I try not to keep up with it every single day.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, yeah. Oh, it's I mean, there's so much pressure when you try to guess what could happen based on transits.

SPEAKER_00:

Like it's a reflection, it's it's just not it's honestly it's not good for me.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, a hundred Yeah. Sometimes if I'm feeling wild, I might take a look at my transits. Like I really hate the Channy app, and I'm like, oh, that is why I'm Gramsci as hell, because I'm having clarity in my relationships. Exactly. It can be helpful, but I agree. It's like you don't always want to be checking up on it in an um yeah intense way, but it can be such a wonderful guide.

SPEAKER_00:

I know, and I, you know, I kind of had like a big revelation around the Saturn in Pisces transit because I don't know, I think I went into that transit feeling a bit more optimistic about it than it's actually turned out to be. I think it's it's actually felt like a really hard transit. I have my Jupiter sun and Pisces of Venus in Pisces. And it's oddly brought me like a lot of self doubt, like more so than I'm typically used to navigating. And, you know, I went into it thinking like it was gonna. Be fine because I'm like, well, I know Saturn energy. My moon is in Capricorn, and so I'm very familiar with it. But I actually so, like, my point is like, even when you know these things, sometimes I don't know. I'm like, I still kind of like gave into the worst of the transit. And I was just on a trip a couple weeks ago with three girls, and they were all having their Saturn return, and like and actually, I feel like in the last couple weeks, I've just happened to look at the charts of a lot of people who are having their Saturn return and having like a great year. And it's because they were putting in the work. And that is like an essential part of navigating the Saturn transit. It's like you really it's hard, it takes you to task, it really wants you to put in the fucking work, and then you will get the rewards. And I'm like, that's what I have not been doing. Like, I have not built the structure for myself. I'm like, yeah. So I'm like, I I need to have a different mindset for the rest of this transit so I can actually like get something good out of it.

SPEAKER_01:

That's such a beautiful revelation. I mean, I I grew up with tarot palm tea leaf reading as part of my you know cultural practice. So I was really familiar with that kind of divination. But when I was in my Saturn return, I didn't know about Saturn returns. I wasn't raised with astrology.

SPEAKER_00:

That is like my one biggest regret is like I wish I knew what the fuck I was going through. I mean I knew I didn't know it was my Saturn return, but I didn't know that I needed to stand the fuck up.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I still got divorced though. Like I still did all the things I needed to do, but I think it would have been cool just to be like, I'm doing this because I, you know, it's time uh for me to step into my next self or you know, shed everything, all of that. But it's so funny that even intuitively I I was banging around and it was tough, but I still still got divorced, still moved to New York and did all the things I needed to do.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. That's a thing, of course. Like I really believe at the end of the day, like we all get to where we're meant to be. And even if like again, this Saturn and Pisces transit, even though I felt like it kind of beat me down, well, that's maybe what I needed so that I could then rise up again, you know? Um, and you know, this my Saturn return, like it really changed my life in a way that I could not foresee. Like mine was happening in my do you guys do whole sign or placidus? I like whole sign, just like Placidus. I do like, yeah. I know I I like Placidus too, but it's really tricky because I have a couple of placements that change based on whole sign. So like I have Saturn, I'm a Taurus rising, so my seventh house is Scorpio, but my Saturn is in Sagittarius, but it's in my seventh house in Placidus, eighth house, obviously, in whole sign. At the end of the day, it's still like similar, but right, and same thing with my I have a 12th house, Pisces Venus in Placidus, but uh in whole sign, it's in my 11th house with the rest of my Pisces placements. So that like it really kind of throws me off sometimes. I'm like, well, am I 12th house Venus or not? I'm definitely a 12th house Venus. Definitely a 12th house Venus, unfortunately. Um so yeah, mine was all about relationships and it really, it really fucking was. That's actually that was my I traded my therapist for a tarot reader story was basically about my Saturn return. Um, and yeah, I like had a complete like you know, breakdown and meltdown over this guy, but I now can recognize that what happened during my Saturn return put me on the path that I'm on today. And like how incredible is that?

SPEAKER_01:

That's so powerful. Does your connection to divination influence the kinds of business decisions you make a lot, or does it feel like it's more personal, introspective, moving through things?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I don't really think that it affects my business. Uh only in the personal of like sort of how I'm approaching things. But um, you know, if I'm like hiring someone, I do look at their chart and look at how you know it compares to mine. But that's like kind of obviously also if I was like launching something, I'm mindful of like when I'm launching it and look for a time that was the best. But that's kind of the extent of it.

SPEAKER_04:

Yes, I I I did a birth chart for this podcast. Did you? Yes, and that's how we decided what what time, what day and time we were gonna launch. Oh wow. Yeah, we we have like an intense grand cross in the birth chart of Immaterial World. So it's really, really cool. Um, I do want to talk about the the divination for your business though, because I feel like it it sort of becomes this centerpiece. You talk about therapy, you talk about mental health advocacy, you talk about fashion. And so for me, when I'm looking at your work, like divination really lives in the middle for you of talking about all of this. And maybe, maybe it gives it like a more like fun, sexy kind of twist in a way. But what uh what level, you know, because you are talking about therapy so much, you're talking about divination, what level of nuance does divination give you? Maybe that therapy doesn't give you? Um maybe as a creative, like it gets you to think of things differently. I'm I'm just curious.

SPEAKER_00:

I know. Um I know, I feel like it's so hard to uh to articulate in a sense. Um, and I think like separate from that story that I wrote, because that story is actually about how I was like abusing tarot. And so I've I've Jez is familiar with this. Yeah, so I'm like, I've moved out of that era. I like I almost never get tarot readings anymore, like maybe once a year. Um, because again, it's like sometimes when you go into that dark side, then when you come out, you're like, oh, now I trust myself. And like again, like that is such a beautiful thing to be able to take away from it. It's like I actually didn't need that. It was like trying, I was using it to soothe my anxiety, but now I can soothe my own anxiety because I trust myself, I trust my purpose, I trust like what like the mission that I'm on, that I'm on this planet for and what the universe wants for me. So I know that like specifically like when things aren't working out the way that I want them to, I'm just like, well, it's okay because I know I still have faith that like I'm gonna get to where I'm going, even if there's bumps in the road. Like I just I really do like feel so deeply connected to my purpose, and especially like through this newsletter. So a lot of that I've I've gotten because of my belief in astrology, things I've heard in tarot readings, spiritual books that I've read. Like listen, it's it's similar to like religious beliefs, you know? It's like this is what helps me to get up every day and know that I'm doing the right thing and that at the end of the day, I'm gonna be guided to the right place. I don't know if that answers your question.

SPEAKER_04:

I, you know, I love this, and I I love that you speak about working with purpose. What do you what do you think that your purpose is and how are you living it through forward joy?

SPEAKER_00:

I mean, in the most simplest of terms, it's like I know my purpose is to help people, and I can help people in different ways, right? I think even when I was working in fashion, I was helping people. Like clothes are still important, even though we want to act like they're so superficial and and this and that, but they're not because we all have to get dressed every day. And I use fashion so intentionally because I want to use it to feel like the best version of myself.

SPEAKER_04:

Oh, it's it's identity creating, like in both of these worlds. It's like helping people show and shape who they are for sure.

SPEAKER_00:

And you know, and then also there's this mental health piece. Like, guys, like when I I was in sixth grade when I had my first panic attack. He fucking uprooted my entire world, flipped it on its head. I struggled for years, and I had no idea that one day I was gonna be talking about it with the world, that I was gonna share my story, and other people were gonna see themselves in my story, that I was gonna be able to help people navigate that or know that they're gonna be okay, that they're not alone. There is no way for me to have ever known that. Like, and I'm so thankful. Like, in a way, it's weird, right? Because that was undoubtedly like one of the hardest things I've ever gone through. So it really sucked in the moment. It's the same thing with like my Saturn return. It sucked so bad in the moment, but then when you come out of it, you realize oh, like this is what comes of that. Um and I also feel like that's the funny thing about the name of my newsletter forward joy is that it's actually my dad's birth name. My death, I love that. Yeah, my dad is was born in Jamaica, you know, he grew up on a farm on the north coast of the islands. Like, I don't even know where that he has no idea like where that name come from, but he hated it. So when he moved to the US, he legally changed it. And, you know, I only know it because I've seen it on his birth certificate. And so when I started thinking about names for my newsletter, it just kind of felt like I don't know, it could be something like kind of cheeky and fun, and it's something that is deeply connected to me. Um, and I'll never forget I had I was signed to an agency at the time, and they were like, Is your newsletter gonna be about joy though? And I was like, No, not always. It's really it's actually really not gonna be about joy all the time, unless you share my perspective that like I mean, it's just like the concept of like we can't be happy all the time, but like there's always gonna be joy ahead of us. So that's why like forward joy. There's always gonna be joy ahead of us, no matter where we are in our journey. If we're depressed right now, if we're struggling right now, that doesn't last forever. Like you will find the joy again. And also, so much of my joy has been born from the fact that I have gone through these really difficult moments. I have like through tears and just awful times, like I've been able to claw myself out of dark holes to be okay again and like be rooted in myself. And now, as I said, like be able to share these stories and help people, and that brings me so much joy, so much purpose, so much fulfillment.

SPEAKER_01:

That's beautiful. Just for people who haven't experienced your newsletter, your podcast. Yeah, what is the forward joy experience like? What are the pillars? What are you doing there?

SPEAKER_00:

So when I launched it, I said that you know, it's a newsletter that's dedicated to self-discovery, self-investment, self-care. Um, it's whatever I want it to be, right? It's an extension of me. So uh it's twice a month, which I love because it doesn't feel overwhelming. And I feel like it's like people can look forward to it because it's not piling up in your inbox. And um, I usually like will write a personal essay once a month, or uh sometimes maybe I'll do a book roundup or a podcast roundup. Um, but I write a lot of personal essays, and then the other one is typically an interview with someone that I admire that I think has an interesting point of view. So I've obviously interviewed my astrologer Rebecca Gordon, um, my tarot reader Violetta Lazer. I've interviewed mental health professionals, my friend matchmaker Maria, who is a matchmaker by you know profession. Um, I just had a traditional Chinese medicine doctor on. Like I just get to explore all the things that I'm genuinely curious about. I talk a lot about dating, of course, because I am a Pisces, I'm have a 12th house Pisces. Um, I'm also a Taurus rising, I'm ruled by Venus. So much of my existence is unfortunately about the pursuit of love. So uh that is also a huge theme for me.

SPEAKER_04:

In all forms that it comes. I mean, living in your purpose is love too. So of course there you there you go. What are you calling in for 2026 and especially with that part of your business?

SPEAKER_00:

That is such a great question because um the last like year and a half has actually felt like quite hard for me because I haven't had a team to really support me. So I've kind of been like literally on an island by myself doing all the many different parts of my business. And so, like this year I launched the podcast extension for Forward Joy. I have an incredible podcast editor. Uh, I two months ago, I just hired a cre she's basically a creative strategist, but she's helping me produce my newsletter and podcast and just supporting me in all the ways that I had zero support. I was like, you know, the intern, the boss, the everything. And so I want to continue to kind of build out this support system for myself so I can continue to like really give the best of myself to this newsletter. And I really want to do more in-person events. I've done them sporadically over the last like three or four years now. I've actually done most of them in London because I spend half the year in London, and I think it feels like more approachable because while I know that's like my second biggest audience, it's you know, it's gonna be smaller than like a New York audience. So a friend of mine who's also in the mental health advocacy space, but she has a psychology degree. I was talking to her earlier this summer, and you know, I said to her how sometimes it feels kind of hard to navigate this space knowing that I'm not a mental health professional, right? Like I do not have a degree. I've read a lot of books though, and I've been in therapy since I was 11 years old. So I do know a lot, but I never want to cross that line. I don't want to be a Mel Robbins, okay? Like, um, say it again, please say it again. I do not want to be a Mel Robbins, like completely overstepping boundaries and telling people about how they need to just like get along with their families over the holidays. Like, girl, respectfully shut the fuck up. But my so my friend said she was like, Yeah, but you offer peer support, like you are talking about things you've gone through and you're connecting with other people who have gone through like-minded things and so or similar things. And like that, like term peer support just like kind of triggered this light bulb inside of me that was like, Oh my god, that's right. Like, that's what I'm here for. And she even talked about like Alcoholics Anonymous, you know. It's like she's like, that is a peer support group. It's all similar people who have gone through struggles and like they're all there to support one another. So I'm like, that's how I really want to think about like how I continue to do my events. It's like I want us all to be a community that like we are here to lean on one another and to help one another and to all like be a a resource for one another.

SPEAKER_01:

That's so beautiful. I mean, I I was raised in a divination tradition as a job, and we always think of it as community care, like that piercing. We're doing it to be of service to each other. It's not about hierarchy or anything like that. It's about completely, you know, showing up for each other with a lot of compassion and a willingness to create space for people to explore. I just love that. I'm so behind that.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, thank you. Uh, yeah. So to be able to like do more events, I think it would be really nice, but it's also a little tricky for me because I get really energetically drained from being around people, like a lot of people in that, in that sense. So I think that's also a reason why I haven't done as it's weird because it's like I want to do them, but at the same time, sometimes I get scared because after I do like literally a two-hour event, like I can't speak to anybody for 24 hours after that. And like even leading up to the event, I try not to do anything, not talk to anybody because you know, the people are there to get things from you, and you also have like you have to deliver. So um, yeah, it can be really draining on me. But I've also talked to a lot of a lot of people who like struggle with the exact same thing. So I'm like, okay, it's not just like I don't won't I don't want to take it as like a sign that I shouldn't be doing it.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it's objectively draining. And I think those kinds of self-care routines that you have before and after are really smart, and that'll help you find how many you get to do in a year and in what capacity and what your boundaries are around it for sure. How can people best support your work?

SPEAKER_00:

By subscribing to my newsletter, yes, yes. Um, as I said, it's only twice a month, so I feel like it's really approachable. Um, and uh I do paywall a little bit of my content, so for paid subscribers, you also get a bonus newsletter at the end of the month where sometimes I'm like recapping my travels. You know, I travel quite a bit, so like I had spent half of October in Madrid, so I did like a full-on like Madrid guide for my paid subscribers. Um, for November, I did like a bonused uh gift guide that was just like here are all the things that I have genuinely like used this year and truly loved. Um and yeah, sometimes it's just like here, here's the inside scoop on things I'm not sharing with everybody. That sounds wonderful.

SPEAKER_01:

I loved your Madrid outfit that you posted. It was like this long dress that you had a scarf that you talked about.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, yes, yes, yes. The Doen dress. I know it's so that dress is stunning. I'm having Doen. I love like the designers, they it's so funny because they um they support Planned Parenthood and every year for Giving Tuesday, they make a big donation. I think they did like 20,000 this year, but they do it every single year and they post about it on Instagram. And of course, because Doen kind of has this like trad wife um aesthetic, it attracts a lot of Trump supporters, unfortunately. Yeah, but they don't realize that the founders are staunchly liberal and you know, pro choice and all of those things. So it is literally like my favorite day of the year when they post their support for Planned Parenthood. I highly suggest after this podcast, going and Reading the comments because they are having an absolute meltdown. They were like, had I known I'm I'm I'm returning the dresses I just bought. I'm never shopping here again. Like, this is so insane. And oh my God.

SPEAKER_04:

I'm bad. I love it. I love this so much because it really goes back to that like brand alliance that we were talking about, finding the brands that are supporting the things that you care about. So what a what a way to end this conversation. Full circle. Oh my God. Chrissy, you are a joy. Thank you so much for joining us. This was amazing.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm so happy, Jessica, that you commented on my Instagram so that we could all be here today. Chris said, close tobots don't get fed. Like you just you have to ask for what you want. And I think because of also like my editorial background, I'm like, I want to interview that person. Listen, they might say no, but I'm gonna reach out and ask. Yes, you have to.

SPEAKER_04:

We're so happy.

SPEAKER_03:

So grateful.

SPEAKER_04:

Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_05:

I like to see you shining.

SPEAKER_06:

Special kind of magic. How do you feel? Pretty like a sunster.

SPEAKER_05:

Special kind of magic material world, come meet me in the material world. As far as the galaxy ghost, we're flying in the in-material world. If material world, come beat me in the in-material world. Your mind, your body and soul, delighted in the if material world. The it material world. The immaterial world.

SPEAKER_02:

Immaterial world is hosted by Jessica Richards and Jasmina Bonchilla. Music by Dia Luna. Artwork by Lane Friend. Follow us at Immaterial World Pod on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube. Visit our website at www.immaterial dashworld.com. Or send us an email at Immaterial World Pod at gmail.com.

SPEAKER_03:

Thank you for being part of our immaterial world. Welcome to the Immaterial World.