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Immaterial World
A dedicated and transparent space to re-center how we explore glamour, fashion, magic, wellness, culture, and everything else we love, together.
hosted by Jessica Richards and Jezmina Von Thiele
Immaterial World
MONEY MAGIC with Jessie-Susannah Karnatz
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Jessie-Susannah Karnatz, aka The Money Witch, brings anti-capitalist, shame-free education to healers, hustlers, and creatives in order to catalyze change in their financial lives. She believes healing our finances will bring blessing to our lives, our lineages, and our communities.
She offers Intuitive Financial Coaching worldwide and is the High Priestess at Money Coven, an online web of magical beings who are healing their relationship with money through financial shadow work, showing up for their financial self care, and becoming powerful stewards to the symbol of creative lifeforce that is money.
In this episode, Jessie-Susannah discusses having a healthy and candid relationship with finances: healing disconnections, aligning with your life’s purpose and desires, anchoring in your reciprocal value, plus so much more.
For more about Jessie-Susannah visit:
Instagram: @money.witch
Money Coven: https://www.moneywitch.com/money-coven-waitlist
Self Paced Courses: https://money-witch.teachable.com/
YouTube: www.youtube.com/moneywitch
TikTok: @therealmoneywitch
Join Jessie-Susannah’s mailing list for exclusive intuitive financial wisdom: http://eepurl.com/bygiDD
Welcome to Immaterial World, a dedicated and transparent space to recenter how we explore glamour, magic, culture, and everything else we love together. Jesse Susannah Carnatz, aka The Money Witch, brings anti-capitalist, shame-free education to healers, hustlers, and creatives in order to catalyze change in their financial lives. She believes healing our finances will bring blessings to our lives, our lineages, and our communities. She offers intuitive financial coaching worldwide and is the high priestess at MoneyCoven, an online web of magical beings who are healing their relationship with money through financial shadow work, showing up for their financial self-care, and becoming powerful stewards to the symbol of creative life force that is money. Close your eyes, let your shoulders drop, release the tension in your jaw, and just take a deep breath. Let it out. If you want to deeply breathe in and sigh it out loudly, go ahead and do that. I want everyone to get really comfortable because today we're talking about money. This is not the most comfortable of subjects, so we want to start everybody off at ease. Just really take a deep breath in, sigh it out, and relax into our conversation today. Because we have the most perfect guest for walking with us in this subject, holding space for our financial tensions. We're going to talk about why we might feel empowered or challenged financially, how we can heal our relationship to money, how we can connect to our highest path with money, and especially now how to use it responsibly as we navigate the power of our own money as a form of protest. We're thrilled to be here today with Jesse Susanna Carnett. Welcome. Welcome. Hi, thank you for having me. We're so happy to have you. Could you tell us about your personal journey that led us here? How did you become the money witch?
SPEAKER_00:Um there's like the long meandering version, which is um in my book for anyone who wants it, but I guess the short version is um I started off in the um sex industry as a stripper for um almost a decade. And I feel like I really formed a relationship, like a visceral somatic, I guess is the word these days, relationship with cash um and money um through that. And then I was working at a peep show in San Francisco that was iconically uh unionized in the late 90s. It was like one of the only successful unionization efforts in a strip club, like internationally at that point. There has like been a few more since then. Um it was called the Lusty Lady RIP. Um, and we were all gonna get laid off, but because we are already organized in a union, like organization in the workplace was really already entrenched, and we um organized to buy it as a worker on cooperative. So uh we started doing that, and it was like I got pushed into this was pre like you could learn how to do an internet off the bit like a business off the internet era. Um, so we really just had to like wing it, and uh this was I guess maybe 2004. Um and so it was like all of a sudden I was like on the board of directors of an, you know, a business. And I was like in HR and like head managing and then like doing finances, and so I learned about business in that way, and then um got really interested in workaround cooperatives and alternative economy, and I started a little business with a friend of mine doing bookkeeping and taxes for like small um kind of values alliance, nonprofits and people who worked in worker on co-ops. Um then I got pregnant, I got really sick and like totally crashed and burned my partnership with that business. Um, and then went through like a very tumultuous tower card divorce eviction scenario and was like, I need a job, but I can't have a job because my work history is so weird, and also I have this kid and um so but I was like, I do know how to run a business. So I started two different businesses actually for myself at that time, like a postpartum dual out business and then um Money Witch, which was you know kind of a spin-off off of what I had been doing before, and um yeah, moved moved into that. And when I had been doing it before, I got really intrigued by um why people don't do the stuff that you tell them they need to do, right? Like it's like we were working as sort of like um, what is the word, like culturally competent financial people. So I'm like, oh, even as like a quote unquote like culturally competent financial person, I'm forming relationships with people and explaining how things work and educating them and telling them what they need to do in order to like reach their goals. Um and then like not doing it. Why I must know Scorpio Rising. So it's like I have to know. So then I just kind of formed my whole business around digging deeper into that, and that was almost 12 years ago.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, so eighth house talking about money and especially other people's money. Love your trajectory too. Thank you so much for telling us that story. It makes so much sense why you're so well informed from all these different angles. It's not just your training, but also your life experience.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think that part is really key. Like it's very important to me to not be positioned as an expert, really. Like, I'm like, I'm a guide. You know, that's how I identify I'm a guide. Yeah. Makes sense.
SPEAKER_01:You know, so many people are paralyzed by their relationship with money. And you talk about financial avoidance quite a bit and welcome clients to explore the magic that will come with the work that they're avoiding. Tell us a little bit about this dichotomy and and how we even start to approach this subject and healing our finances.
SPEAKER_00:So healing to me is like movement of energy. And uh, you know, usually in an intentional way, or like when you bring in magic, it's kind of like then we're bringing in the intentionality, the intentional trajectory. Um in my like religious faith tradition, um the more that I've dug deeper into that, the more I like found an aligning with how I was kind of intuitively positioning my work anyway, which is like, you know, your soul meets your body on purpose for a reason to do a piece of work, and your soul essentially has like a curriculum, like in this embodiment. And so I am encountering people for whom like money is a part of their healing work in this lifetime, and I consider your healing work to be like the entire purpose of your life. So that really forms, you know, how how I see what I do and how I'm like holding um the work of like the people who come into my sphere with an attempt to do that healing, which is like this is why you're here. And um, you know, everyone has to interact with money, but not everyone is like charged with really healing around money, you know, in this lifetime. But if you find yourself really um, you know, knotted up, like locked up around money or avoiding it, then I'm that's an indicator that money is an issue for you and it's not just like not an issue, right?
SPEAKER_01:Like I yeah, I mean I'm like looking at you and I'm like, okay, you can totally tell. I'm like a Chiron and Taurus in the second house.
SPEAKER_02:Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I'm like cringing inside of my body right now.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, baby, that's you. Um, yeah, so I'm just like, I feel like a lot of times I'm just here to kind of like let people know that piece. Like, even that piece is like a piece of information. Um, and I'm like, because of the the way that I hold everything spiritually or like my personal spiritual beliefs, I'm like, you're not getting out of this, right? Like if you feel like locked up about this, like you're not getting out of that. Like this is this is on your plate, you know, to eat in this lifetime. So um let's take a little baby bite. Just one. And I'm really good, you know, it's like I'm really good at that kind of like whisperer energy with this particularly. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:God, I love that. And I did uh join your workshop that was in early uh January, and one of the notes that I took and wrote down was, you know, exactly what you're talking about now, that there is a sort of a faded path that you're you're working through, and there is a curriculum that you're working through in this lifetime. And by getting comfortable with that, you're already starting to heal your finances in a way because you understand that this discomfort is what you're meant to work through and and part of that destinied path. So when you talk to people about getting into alignment with their desire, how do you marry that idea of discomfort and highest potential for them? Because I I mean I can't describe to you how uncomfortable I am in this conversation, knowing how much it's tied into my own self-worth, right? It there's so many tentacles in this conversation for me for sure.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, that's the overwhelm, right? Like it's like it's overwhelming because there are so many pieces. So I think just holding a container and holding the space for people to be like, let's just start, you know, unraveling this a little bit. Like, let's just start unnotting it and looking at some of it. But like the discomfort, you know, the thing, everything we're just discomforted by or uncomfortable with that is for us has a time to unfold, also. Not everybody's ready, you know. Every it's not like just because it's on your plate doesn't mean you're like necessarily ready to eat it. So um I think it's like when you are ready, then it's about being like, okay, let's go in and start unraveling things a little bit, and then also make sure that there's like comfort and support there for that. Um, so we do a lot, you know, the more the the main the two ways I work with people right now is like in my membership, which is called Money Coven, and then in my and then one-on-one. So, but in the membership, we do like a lot of that kind of balance between like we're really gonna go in the shadows, and then it's gonna be balanced with taking it really slow or taking it at your own pace, right? And like acknowledging the diversity of existence and that there's no way that people can just go through a program and do everything at the same pace, and like that that feels like safe and comfortable and and even right for them. So there's a lot of like spaciousness for um, you know, titrating things in, like, you know, how how much of it can you absorb at one time? So it's like really affirming that also this, you know, healing is not linear, right? And it's like that also means that it's not at a um consistent pace either. Like sometimes like one little drop of something is very, very powerful, you know. Um, it's kind of like a little homeopathic. So I have like one of the things we do in the membership is like there's a monthly budgeting group, right? Where it's like I have my system, my spreadsheet system of people do their budgeting, and you know, everybody comes and kind of does it together and asks questions and works on their stuff. And um I always tell people, like, you're welcome to come, even if you're like, I don't want to make a budget budget, like I'm not ready to do that, or like I'm never gonna do that, you know. Like, I'm like, that's fine. Just come sit with us because it's like you're getting like a vibrational treatment of like what you could be ready, or like you're in the presence of people who are ready or are like getting ready to be ready, you know, and that is like important to not just push because it backfires, and that's a lot of the framing, you know, that I was offering in that January class is around like colonial willpower ethic. And it's like that ethic is like, you know, you need to do this thing, just like dive in and just you know, get it done. And if you can't, then there's something wrong with you. And it's like that backfires so much because if you just like went in and were like, I have to do this, I have to do the spreadsheet, I like have to show up and you know, because this is what she's expecting, or like this is what the class is, and um then it's like overwhelming, and then you're just gonna shut down again, you know. And I'm like, and we just did all this work to get you a little open, you know. So it's like that's not what we're going for. Um I think that even that vibrational dose can have like tremendous levels of impact on people's healing.
SPEAKER_01:I love getting ready to get ready. That feels like a good introductory step. Yeah, let's dive into the magical aspect of this. I mean, all of this has been magical, but let's really get down to how is money energetic?
SPEAKER_00:How is money not energetic? Like, I don't know. Um, I mean, I personally see money as like uh, I guess it's sort of like a talisman, like it's a token that represents like units of energy, like life force. So whether that is like solar life force, human life force, you know, animal life force, like that's and most things like are a combination of all those things, right? So um ancestral life force, like everything that we are exchanging money for, or using money as like a representative of is a combination of like effort of everything that ever has existed. So um that's really like all it is. It's not, it's not, I don't know. I I'm like, I just can't see it as anything like other than that. That just feels like what it is to me.
SPEAKER_01:No, that makes so much sense. I know so many people feel like money is inherently dirty or money is spiritually evil, and there definitely can be all of those things surrounding it, depending on you know, the um capitalist, patriarchal. Uh you used a great word in your book that I had heard before and I forgot about it. Is it called curriarchical? Yeah. Yeah, curiarchical structures where we're looking at the intersections of those it's colonialists, it's capitalist, it's patriarchal. It's all it's all these things. Um, it's white supremacist. Uh so it can be all those things, but I think it it's really helpful for people to hear that money itself is an energy or a token or something that we work with, and it it doesn't have to be all of those things. I remember I felt guilty for asking for honestly, what was just a fair rate when I first started off as a freelance editor and fortune teller and everything. And I had someone sit me down, this wonderful older lady who had been doing things for a while, and she's like, Honey, money is energy, and you were not asking for the right amount of energy for your energy. I mean, it was like life-changing to me.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah, I I mean it's like money is not capitalism, and also like the marketplace is not capitalism, you know, and and reciprocity and exchange, and like, you know, needing to receive resources is not capitalist. So yeah, the system like the moment that we're living in, I mean, I see like it's like, yes, the systems that we're living in and naming them and holding them as separate entities and helps us be able to navigate them, but really it's just sort of like the moment in time space that we exist in. Like, here's where we're incarnated, and here's what's up, and here's how resources work right now. And it doesn't mean like don't explore other ways that resources could work, or don't, you know, question or diversify the way that you like resource yourself in your life, but the decision to like absolutely stand in counter to the common way that people resource um in the point in time space in which you exist is like actually like a really intense choice. Um and I think people do a lot of like not totally choosing a counter decision, cultural decision, but not not choosing it either, and that like wastes a lot of energy. So it's sort of like, you know, having jobs where you are getting paid money or having deciding to like resource yourself through doing client work, but then undercharging because you don't feel comfortable charging like what you would need to charge to be resourced is one of those energy leak types of decisions. Like, if you want to live counter-culturally to the way that we resource, like there are some ways to do that, and you can't opt out of it no matter what, right? Like, even if you're like, I'm gonna live in an intentional community where we're working in this way, it's like somebody needs some money at some point and it's coming from somewhere, somebody needs something from the outside world at some point and it's coming from somewhere. So I don't know, we're just not really like free to be outside of it, which doesn't mean like don't diversify and question the relationship, but it does mean like where are you kind of self-sabotaging through making essentially like unsophisticated countercultural choices. Oh, that's really well said. I like that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I also I love this your answer to money is energy too, because it is something that I like to try to explain to people when they ask about the ethics of abundance magic. And a lot of times people feel like, like, isn't it bad for me to ask for money? And it's like, no, baby chick, it is it's not bad. Money is energy, and there's so many different ways that we can work on healing our relationship with that energy.
SPEAKER_00:But also, there's plenty of money, yeah. Like, there's a lot of money, people are making money. Like, so why can't you make some money? And the amount of money that I see people live life in kind of fraughtness around making because they feel like some. somehow they're taking it away from someone else directly is not that's not the kind of exploitation that is a problem. I mean, it is on all of us to question our relationship to extraction and to notice like the way that we embody extractive um tactics in our relating, but the level of extraction that is happening that has like really nothing to do with us. Um yeah, and it's certainly not being activated by like, you know, I've seen people in my office over the years like stressing out about making like$70,000 or$100,000 or you know,$120,000. And I'm like, you're not the problem. Like that's not the problem.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I think this is so interesting too, because I uh we contribute to the problem when we don't ask for what we're worth, right? We start to devalue the work, we start to devalue ourselves. And I think it's really interesting, Jess, that you would bring up, you know, especially being a freelancer, because when you move from something that's more secure into that kind of role, it almost becomes a scarcity of if I say no to this work, will it disappear and then I'll have nothing? So it creates such an interesting mindset and having my own business. This is something that I've worked with uh over the past few years in particular. Uh, Jesse Susanna, what thoughts do you have around the blocks that people create with earnings specifically? Like how much they are earning or how much they're investing. What are some of the common limitations that you hear from clients about those sorts of um self-imposed issues?
SPEAKER_00:Well, the I mean, the one you're invoking of like, oh, I'm I'm afraid to not take the low-paying clients or, you know, kind of like I'm filling all my time with lower-paying clients, which honestly to me is just a lack of strategy, right? Like I really over the last couple of years, I re-entered the world of political act uh organizing, um, which I had kind of been taking a break from, not activism or not like speaking out politically, but like actual organizing for about a decade. Um and it made me kind of like re-evaluate everything I've been learning about business strategy, you know, and and personal strategy. But I'm like, I don't know, taking like low-paid clients or like filling all your time and space with lower, like low-paid clients is the pinnacle of like lack of strategy. So um, you know, just lack of intentionality, right? Which that is something that seeps into all areas of our life at a variety of times. Um doing something like not feeling empowered, not feeling sovereign. So if you are looking at your client client base essentially in a strategic way, or you're working at your money life or your business life in a strategic way, then you're gonna say, like, here's how much I need to make. You're gonna be doing the numbers, getting the data to back that up, right? Like tracking your spending and kind of seeing, like, actually, how much do I need to make per month? Like, realistically, if I want to live in, you know, X, Y, Z way, then how much would I need for taxes? Let me be realistic about that. What would I need for saving? What would I need for, you know, whatever else you want to do, and then get an actual real number of like, here's how much I need to be making. Okay, now we're in strategy. Aquarius season is the perfect time to be doing that. That's when, you know, we're recording in Aquarius season, and it's like just looking at that big picture without judgment of kind of like, how am I gonna do this? Rather than feeling like, I can't, I could never, as a freelancer, make, you know, whatever it is,$12,000 a month, or you know, um, it's like actually you can, but you definitely have to make a plan and then you have to like work according to that plan. Um, which doesn't ever mean you don't compromise and like take a client just to like get some some cash, like a cash infusion, but you are seeing yourself as like sovereign and capable of not even manifesting, but like crafting, you know, the results that you want. That's essentially what strategy is, right? Like, I'm gonna I'm gonna work in a way that is going to get me these results and continue to evaluate it. So people are capable of doing that, um, but it's a combination of like not believing, you know, and then you know, not believing that you can, and then hard, the hard skills, the technical skills of doing that. So I think that that's huge, right? Like just taking what you're given is essentially, you know, what that version of scarcity is. Um and of course, like we said, there's all these underlying things underneath that. So it's like if there's like self-worth stuff and there's, you know, ancestral um lineage that says like don't be noticed, you know, and then there's like, you know, your family is like um always kind of in their own version of like stress around scarcity and is kind of like shaming you for like wanting more than they have to offer, or you know, like there's all these ways that like it doesn't make it easy, it's not just like, oh, just be sovereign, you know, like just make a plan. Like that's not it, but it's like you are capable of doing that, and then hand in hand with that, you always have to be like, okay, where's the shadow work that's like you know tethered to holding me back from making the decisions and making the moves that would take me to where I want to go. And that's you know, I know we talked a little bit or like invoked the concept of desire earlier, right? But really like taking the time to identify what you do desire and also just what you realistically need in order to be like living the life that you're living, um, in order to be foundationally secure. And then saying like this is important to prioritize that. I think people feel guilty, and there is, you know, baggage, there can be baggage like in the spiritual community, in the arts community, in the activist community, around being like, oh, I'm gonna prioritize making money. Like that is not an okay thing for me to be prioritizing. But you know, when we're referencing before what we're saying around just like this is about you having the energetic support in the form of resources that you need to live your life in a way that is like you know, full of access to health, access to um, including like, you know, energetic, mental um lack of stress, all those kinds of things. It's like, why would that not be valuable part of the puzzle? Like, why are we not allowed to make that part of the puzzle? We have to like just give and give and give and give until we die. And then it's like that sounds like something called capitalism. You know what I mean? Like it's you know, and there's a way in which it's like capitalism is an abusive system, and part of the ways that abuse works is to get you to do their work for them, right? So it's like, yeah, if you're willing to exploit yourself, like no one has to bother exploiting you. It's not that even that hard to do. Um, but we don't have that narrative around it. We have all these kind of like martyrdom narratives around it, which is that's the interesting thing. Like these narratives that we have around money being evil, you know, some of them come from beliefs that are mirrored in indigenous resistance, or like how is money a part of the capitalist system? But a lot of them actually come out of like the cultish Christianity that created the United States of America. So it's like, you know, the pilgrims and the Puritans like also have some of these beliefs, you know, and um like a disconnection from the physical world, disconnection from pleasure, and like a glorification of martyrdom that's like highly, highly Catholic. So, you know, it's like the the places that we think these ideas come from and how noble they are is not necessarily like honestly where they're coming from in our subconscious.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I'm so glad that you're getting into this with so much thought because I, you know, we wanted to talk high-level about our own disconnections with money and you know, just to show people what it's like to work with you, how might you approach these issues? And the one that you're talking about is very much mine. And it's interesting because I have a strategy. So, like my, you know, I struggle with I um afraid to let go of low-paying opportunities that feel safer and more consistent to expand my business and pursue these higher paying opportunities that are more of a stretch. And I have a strategy and I've thought a lot about it, and I have a whole business plan, and I've even had it work in other areas before. And I am chronically ill and I can only do so much. And instead of making this trade where it's like, okay, I have a plan, I'm gonna do it. I try to do everything, and I end up um just driving myself into the ground. But then there's also, as I'm, you know, listening to you, I'm thinking about how in my family the ways in which I want to expand are sort of outside of the traditional like Romani survival trade of divination. And I'm just hearing like, you know, my mom's voice being like, What makes you so special? Which is what her answer or her response to everything when I wanted anything, you know, better than absolute bare minimum. And it's a really interesting kind of internalized racism, internalized, you know, colonial structures that I don't think on the surface my family would ever say they believe in, but it is this whole trauma, I think, that's just been turned inward on us. And it's such an interesting thing and really difficult thing to work through, even though I feel like I've been clever enough to make a plan. It's very scary to execute it because I have that like, well, what makes me so special kind of response.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I I think that the, you know, the fear of deviation is sensical, you know, like it makes sense that communities have tactics around discouraging deviation um for safety, but also for purposes of like cultural perpetuity. Um, and those are important, but it's of course, like at this point, the tactics, like the cultural tactics, have been co-created with colonialism and you know, terror and displacement and all of these things. So genocide. So it's like they're not totally like it's not like oh, these you know, beautiful tactics that we like have to preserve and carry on. Like they're not without question, you know. And I think, you know, in Money Coven, we do a lot of work around like one of the biggest ways that you can unlearn ableism, which is like such a massive part of the supremacy ideation of colonialism and white supremacy, is by respecting that diversity, you know, diversity is the natural state of existence. So all of us have to approach a piece of work differently just because we are different, everyone is different. And even if we're all carrying a common like cultural lineage, we're gonna hold that differently. Like that is beautiful, right? Like that's the diversity within within culture. And um we have to be able to bring our own soul path to something and not, I don't know, it's like at what point like can our communities heal to the point where it's like we can bring our own diversity of of experience and desire and tactic like to our life path without it being a threat or without it being perceived as a you know rejection or just like unsafe. Yeah, big questions.
SPEAKER_01:Jess, do you want to talk about the thing you're struggling with? Sure. You know, I I did sort of mention earlier that I have that Chiron in Taurus in the second house. And look, let's be really honest, Uranus is sitting on it, it's just sitting direct on it, and it's gonna be sitting there until May. So this conversation is coming so timely. I understand that like the reflection of every self-worth issue that ranges from like how I value my identity, how I value myself, how I value my own safety in whatever form that takes, and how it relates to my finances. And it it's this is not an easy transit for me. This is like a very, very difficult transit for me because it's exposing so much. But ultimately it comes down to that word safety for me, that I have a high distrust of other people at times because I think that I should take care of things myself. And so even, you know, Jez and I will be having a conversation about doing taxes, and it's like, well, I do my own taxes. Like, why is it why is my first instinct that like no one else would be able to help me out? And I sort of refuse help before even looking into the situation, and I'm so insular, and it's working on those trust issues, it's working on those safety issues because I maybe didn't have the caretaking that I needed to feel as though I was safe and that I would be okay. So it's such an instinctual response. And I know this is my storyline for the next few months in particular, and I will I'm facing some beautiful, optimistic situations that invite me to have the grace of, like, wow, look at what's possible for you, and then at the same time, it's like, and let's look at this like ugly demonic side of you that that needs this last bit of healing to move into the next part of your destiny. So ultimately, safety is, I think, at the root of my issue.
SPEAKER_00:A lot of money work is reparenting or like inner child work. And I think, you know, with your situation, I could see that like reactivity. Um, and it's just like uh, you know, I don't know if you have uh children, but it's like you know, the kind of parent that we become is like obviously in relationship to how we were brought up, and it's like sometimes it can be quite reactive, right? So it's like being reactive is different than being iterative, you know, or being like healing in a healing trajectory. I mean, I do think being reactive is in a healing reject trajectory, but um, but it's maybe not like the most kind of mature, sophisticated like place to land in there. It's sort it's very like adolescent rebellion. Um so it's like it just makes me think of like being an over-protective, like over-protective self-parenting. Like you're an over-protective parent to yourself, but to a degree that is like not allowing you to experience life fully, you know, which we've all seen like pre very protective, like over-protective parents, where it's like, oh, this person is like, yeah, being shielded from certain dangers, but they're also like not maybe developing certain skill sets or not like, you know, being exposed to also like, yeah, sometimes you are in relationships and then you do get disappointed, or you know, it's like what do you need to be protected from? What does anyone need to be protected from, or not? So it's like if you're protecting yourself from um being having a disappointing experience with someone who's supporting you, or you're protecting yourself from um, you know, essentially like being able to be building interrelational um experiences of trust, then like that's not actually something you need protection from. Oh, this is so it.
SPEAKER_01:And and I always come back to this is that I don't have to do this alone. And this is my focus over the next few months is to really come back to that first reaction because you're totally right on with that. Like that I have that visceral reaction anytime there's a suggestion that someone might help me in any way where it's like, no, no, no, I can do it myself. So I I am actively working on reparenting of what that would feel like to be vulnerable for me to even say on the internet that I have a weakness is really a different thing for me than saying, like, I'm the best, I've got this handled, don't worry about it, like everything is fine. It's it's that willingness to say, like, actually, I might need help. Like, do you think you could help me with this? Do you think that you could, you know, extend resources for my life to be a little bit easier rather than me just trying to come up with the solution on my own. So yeah, it's so it's so wild. And even touching back again, that last time on that Chiron, it's like, this is my path. Like, this is a huge part of why I came here and like what I needed to heal to do what I'm going to do next. Um, we talk about all the time. I'm a Pisces son and Albert Einstein, like the only reason the time exists is so that it doesn't all happen at once. Sometimes I'm like, why can't we be in the next part? But that's really like, okay, well, you don't get to skip any steps. You have to do all of the work in the in-between. And that sucks, but also it's great at the same time.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it makes me think about Virgo. The Pisces Virgo axis is like one of my favorite ones to kind of story tell around. Yeah. You know, Virgo's like, well, it's like Pisces, like everything that is, and Virgo's like the one thing, right? Like it's like, okay, everything could just happen at once. It's like, yeah, but did you do that one thing that you're actually here to do? Oh, not yet. You know, I guess we'll have to wait.
SPEAKER_01:Oh man, I love this. I am also really curious about your thoughts on money as a form of protest. So we've been definitely touching on this in our conversation, but we know so many of our listeners right now are, you know, feeling the same way we are about the current political situation. We really want to try to use all of our um resources wisely, and we're very aware of financial boycotts of businesses. Um, but now it's the beginning of the year. Um, whenever this episode comes out, it'll still technically be close enough to the beginning of the year. So there's lots of conversations about war tax resistance. What should our listeners know about this subject?
SPEAKER_00:The first thing that you should know about war tax resistance is that you should be making informed and organized political resistance decisions across the board. It is extremely easy to get motivated by urgency and to make decisions that are like, I don't know, like impulsive or just almost like self-soothing, um, or just independently made rather than made in terms of like contributing to an organized structure. And I am not speaking against sort of more like decentralized anarchist decision making, like that's not what I mean, but I mean like your political resistance, like your resistance energy is very sacred and it is also finite. And resistance takes energy. So be strategic in what you're doing, by which I do not mean do or do not do vortex resistance. Like, I don't advise people on like a stance on that. I'm just like, here's the spectrum of possibility of like what happens and how that works. Like, here's how you do it, here's what the potential, what the potentialities are. So I think War Tax Resistance has, I mean, it has a long history. It is a an organized movement. Um, and there's a lot of resources around it. Um, so it's like if you're interested in it, don't do that thing that we talked about earlier where you like kind of do it, but kind of don't do it. It's like war tax resistance is not um Um, not doing your taxes while you think about war tax resistance for two years and then doing your taxes and paying a bunch of fines. Like that's not war tax resistance, right? So it's like if you want to choose that as your tactic, then make a decision, have the discipline to dedicate the time to your politics. I mean, and I'm talking with my like organizer brain at this point, right? But it's like, you know, resistance and political strategy takes time and energy. So it's like carve out the time to understand what it is, to learn about it. Um, I have some videos on my YouTube about it. I sell a pretty inexpensive course about it. There's plenty of free guides and like resources. There's a lot of videos that there's a lot of heightened interest on the internet right now. But I think like take the time to learn about the strategies you're gonna, you're going to employ um or the tactics you're going to employ, and then like stand in knowingness about what the consequences are and you know, make your decisions, um, like play your cards in that way. That's what I have to say about it.
SPEAKER_01:I love that you're coming to intentionality and like how that is the central anchoring piece of all of this. And as someone that comes from the fashion industry, I cannot repeat this enough. Companies know when you stop voting with your dollars for them. Like, I and I will say this over and over again. We have so much unlearning to do around fast culture. We need to learn how to buy from our local stores, we need to know how to buy from uh or buy less to be in a different outfit every week. Like, this is the time to really be intentional with your money and and and unlearn these ideas of instant gratification. And like you're saying, this is part of a very intentional way of living with finances, and I can't stress that enough that there are ways to be affecting that, like in a more present moment as well as long-term decision making.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and boycotts are, you know, it's interesting because like with internet culture, right? Like even, you know, 10 but more like 20 years ago, it was not like possible to spread information in the same way, right? Like people weren't thinking and talking, like your average person was not like talking about boycotts in the same way, but they existed, they've always existed, they've always been organized, but it's like there for the long term. It's not just like, oh, what you saw on Instagram, you should or shouldn't get that this week or this week, you know. Like there's a difference, like even in in BDS, like the there is an organized, you know, decades and decades old uh BDS movement that has specific targets, right? Where they're like, we're putting specific energy on specific targets that's based on like large-scale political strategy. It's not just like, oh, well, this employee at this place did this and we caught it on a video, so like don't go there anymore. I'm like, sure, don't go there anymore. Like, there's no reason we don't have to go to any of these places, you know what I mean? But it's like, and and I think like that general attitude of divestment of just kind of like, I'm not gonna put my dollars like in places where they, you know, aren't creating the kind of culture that I want to create, like, great, but it's like boycott in and of itself is like, yeah, it's it's calmer. Do you know what I mean? It's like it's calmer and it's longer term strategy. So it's like if that is something that really does interest you, right? Like if economic resistance really does interest you, then yeah, just take the time to learn about it, right? Like, it's like we we have that same sense of of fast culture like in our activism as well, right? Like we want to do something and then we want to do it for a while, and then we like, you know, we want to do it as long as it's like getting a lot of feedback, you know, we're in like a big feedback loop around it. It makes me think about like Story Buc uh Starbucks boycott, you know, where it's like, okay, everybody's like, oh yeah. And if you see Starbucks, oh, hey, like a lot of feedback loop around that being a very positive thing to do, but it's like actually the real, you know, BDS targets are like, I don't know, like Puma and like um Intel processors, you know, it's like, are you bringing that same energy when you're like going to buy a computer? Or you know what I mean? Like, are you not staying at Airbnbs? Like, are you, you know, some of these like bigger, longer-term, larger scale projects that you could lend your energy to, but we kind of like want that same. I don't know, it's like, where does that trendy energy pop back in, even in our activism?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's so helpful to hear because I think people know that they should be boycotting, but maybe don't know where to start. And we're lucky that there's a lot more information out there. And it it feels like something that you can take time and figure out what your values are and work through it from there and see what's possible for you.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and there's big companies that have never been good. You know, I grew up in the 80s. My mom boycotted Nestle and boycotted Domino's Pizza because it was she was very um invested in like uh pro-choice activism, and it was like the founder was giving money to, you know, whatever anti-abortion cause. I don't even know the politics of it. I was a kid, you know, but it's like there's certain companies like Nestle, Coca-Cola, those are, you know, big ones. Now we have Amazon. These companies are not good, they're never gonna do good. They have, you know, committed essentially genocide like all over the world and like resource stealing like all over the world, massive exploitation all over the world. And you can feel like very confident in not, you know, buying those products like forever, you know? But we can, yeah, I don't know, just like a groundedness, maybe bringing like a groundedness and a discipline. Like, I do think that discipline is an important part of organizing and kind of of unlearning some of the like fast, fast culture, you know, and discipline, it's like discipline is remembering what you want. So it's like, okay, what do I actually want? And how can I like lean into also leaning into wisdom is and leaning into like lineages of wisdom is a way of undoing some of the fast cultural standpoints that we're, you know, looking to counter. And it's like, okay, like, is there research that's already been done here? Like, how can I learn more about this? And not to get stuck in the learning and like not be in the action of it, but really like choosing to engage like with this discipline, with grounding in the actions that you're taking.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah, I love that. We're going to shift gears a little bit. I really love how you talk about um using different spiritual tools in your book to help heal your relationship with money and um all of all of what it can encompass. You have teas and mantros, tarot cards, and we have a very fun game that we like to play with guests uh who work with tarot. It's really meant to be an educational tool if you're learning or for listeners who are very familiar with tarot. It's just a fun way to get to know the cards in another way. Um, we share a tarot card and then a song that makes us think of that card. What would you like to share with us?
SPEAKER_00:Well, my main tarot card in my Money Witch work is the Queen of Pentacles. And I have a whole zine that I wrote about budgeting. Uh it's called Be the Queen of Pentacles. Um, I think she's a bit like Mary Poppins, which is, you know, the spoonful of sugar, kind of like, here you go, let's do this, which I very much identify with um as a in my Money Witch uh avatar. And I feel like her attitude is like just very practical and kind of like you just need to know. Like, why would you not be in touch with something you need to know about? And so it's like she's really good for like getting in touch with the numbers because she's like, this is yours. Um, it's a little bit of that that second house or that Taurus energy, right? Like ownership and and value, like this belongs to you. Why would you not be concerned with the things that belong to you? Is the Queen of Pentacles energy. So the song that reminds me of the Queen of the Pentacles, I have a whole playlist, which you probably could find on my Spotify if you like really were sleuthing in the internet. Um, but the the song that really reminds me of her is um Diana Ross' It's My House. Um so she's like, you know, the main theme of the song is like it's my house and I live here, and like just like about her sovereignty and her space and kind of like how she's made it, really like how she wants it and how you have to be if you come there. And uh I just think it's a great song about really like standing in in sovereignty of ownership for what's yours, which includes like say so, but also like responsibility.
SPEAKER_01:That is such a good one. Oh my gosh, I love that so much. Um, Jess, what's your song for today? Your tarot friend song. Okay, so this one is for the devil card and it's Strict Machine by Goldfrapp. Do you know this song? So she, of course, all my songs are always from like the early 2000s, but Alison Goldfrapp wrote the lyrics for for this song because she had read an article in the newspaper about these rats that were do they were trained to do commands, but as they were doing the commands, they would be electrocuted in like the pleasure center of their brains. So they almost have like this like involuntary response to like being told what to do and like an addiction to being told what to do. And there's like a really like grindy, like cyberpunk kind of like electro beat on it that just feels like really sexy, and it's like you know, just what I want. So, like do it to me, please. Like, it's just got this like energy, and when you know that it's like about these lab rats that are being electrocuted into doing something, it's like wow, there's levels of this. So that is my song today, Jess. I'm putting it on you. Oh, that's fascinating. I have to listen to that song again because I don't know that I knew it was about that. Yeah, no one's probably listened to the song in 22 years except for me. So I was at my aqua aerobics class with the um the grandmas today, which I is my favorite routine in the morning, and randomly the seven of cups was in my head with the song Um Golden Brown by the Stranglers. And I think it's such a good Seven of Cups song because the Seven of Cups is really interesting. It's the pleasure and terror of delusion, and the Golden Brown lyrics really speak to more the pleasure of dangerous delusion, um, especially with relationship to opiates or even um sometimes I think the band was saying it could be heroin, it could be love, could be both, but both are like that intense, almost like delusional pleasure. But then there's the downside of it, which is also the Seven of Cups. And so, yeah, Golden Brown, another oldie but goody. Also, when I lived in Ireland, I don't know if this is true, this is just what someone said to me, but apparently that song came out around Christmas, I guess, in the 80s. And for a long time, this is what I've been told. So, Irish listeners, if you're like that's bullshit, I'm I'm so sorry. But this is what I was told was that because it came out around Christmas, it's often played during Christmas season and it's sort of associated with the holiday, which I thought was delightfully odd. That is delightfully odd. Um, and I will say this here as a little Easter egg, but I don't think it's random that you were thinking about the Seven of Cups. Just gonna leave, just gonna leave that there for when this episode lands. I'm just coquettish.
SPEAKER_00:I'm having actually a little bit of a fit because the devil card is like coming for me really oh right now. Um well, specifically via money coven. And I'm very in this, like, what does it mean? Like, where, you know, like what's going on? And then I'm like, ah, again with the devil card.
SPEAKER_01:It's yeah, I'm I'm feeling that card too, and like it's been giving me a little tickle. Um, it's very Saturnian, and I have so many placements in Pisces and Saturn's getting ready to leave, and it's like, have you learned all the lessons? Like, I feel that like energy of the devil is like, okay, just tapping in to make sure you're ready. But it it's so it just felt like really delicious, and that song has been put onto my 2026 playlist. Like, okay, I'm owning this energy of not wanting to be zapped into being addicted to behaviors that I don't want to be looped into anymore. Does that feel resonant, like that Saturn energy for you?
SPEAKER_00:Well, it makes me I'm an Aries, so I'm like, oh, well, Saturn is coming. Oh, it's coming. Yeah, so that's a curiosity. It's been coming in terms of um of money coven. I have like a a Money Coven member who does a reading for us through every we do these like month-long portals and we do a three-card reading at every portal, and um it's based on my three angles of healing, and the devil, she's only done it six, well, now it's seven times. So there's these cycle of six portals that we go through, and the devil showed up in the sixth portal in the the magical energetic angle, and it was like, but he had also been there in the first portal of that cycle, and I was like, hmm, like there's only been six cards here ever, like the odds of it being the same card again at all, you know, is like pretty low, and then it's like obviously quite a notable card. And then in the seventh portal, he showed up again in the same angle reversed. So we're just like I had already started being like, what's going on? Like, what you know, he wants to work with not just me, but like my group, right? Like my people, and I've just been like, What is going on here? So I'm definitely like standing in the quandary of it, and I'm trying, I am such an entity, like spirit person that I go automatically to like straight up just like the devil is trying to work with me, you know, and I'm and I'm really trying to like be like, I don't know if I even want to think about it like that. Like, there's other options of how I could think about it or hold it, and and other ones are coming. Like, I think there's a lot of opportunity. I think my group is being invited into to working more heavily in like um counter-capitalist magic um is like the most strong feeling for me. But I definitely have like a bit of an unease around it, kind of just like slow down, guy.
SPEAKER_01:I will also say, and Jez, like you know, I hate to do this to you, but the first time that Jasmina ever ever read for me, um, the the devil came up in the environment position, and Jez was like very kindly, did not say it in this way, but was like, you do know that you're your own worst enemy. Like a lot of the problems that you have are caused by you. And I was like, Yes, that actually sounds really familiar. So the devil is resonant for me in that way, too, of like question what kind of addictions and problems you cause for yourself. So I I like working with that devil energy. And devil is an entity, uh, you know, I don't personally believe in the literal devil often comes through for me as trickster energy, which could show up in a lot of different entities, which makes a lot of sense with money work for me. You know, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Well, Harmie's Mercury is like definitely my guy. I'm like, he's like back there when it moves to the side. Like, is that you? Um, which I wouldn't put it past him, but oh I love that.
SPEAKER_01:Which tools and practices do you tend to lean into for your personal healing and self-care?
SPEAKER_00:Um containers and support. Like I do really good with one-on-one and just kind of like getting that kind of support. So I really do try to get uh get a lot of that for myself, like definitely, you know, therapy and coaching and and support in different ways of like one-on-one guidance. Um protection. I'm really big on protection practices and um, you know, just have them kind of woven in. I tend to be someone who does a lot of kind of like micro magic actions throughout the day rather than being like, I have carved out this time to do this thing. Um I definitely have like enough neurodivergence that that is not always viable, and I'm like a single mom and et cetera, et cetera. So um, but yeah, lots of like micro um protection magics. Um what else? I don't know. Those are kind of my major ones. I think like just leaning into to spiritual guidance and practical guidance, just healing guidance, and then um staying protected, trying to stay hydrated. I'm really like also leaning into my all my airy stuff is in the sixth house, and I know like while we're in this Saturn, this next like Saturn transit, I'm like, oh, I'm gonna have to like get a lot more serious about physical health. That there's been like some foreshadowing of that. And I'm just like, okay, yeah, I'm 44. This is like the time, the time to like get into the like physical self-care things. I'm not very, I'm very um like in my head and in my spirit. I'm not like a very, very in my body person. That'll be my challenge. That's not my that's not a self-care tool, but that's my self-care challenge that's approaching.
SPEAKER_01:Perfect. That that's a way of self-care too, is identifying your challenges. Uh, what do you have coming up on the horizon that listeners should look out for?
SPEAKER_00:Money Coven is sort of perpetually on the horizon. That is the main place that I'm really doing my work right now. And um, most of my offerings are really only available like through that. Um, and the doors are closed right now, but will reopen in the fall. And um, so if you're interested in in that or in my work in general, I would say like get on my mailing list, which is you can do at moneywitch.com. It's like pretty easy to do that because that's the place that I'm the most consistently letting people know what's going on. Um, I'm going to release some a bunch of YouTube content this year that um I actually recorded, it's like very high-level production, but uh in 2001. Um and it's like not been released. So I'm like working to try to get it released ready. Uh that'll be fun and uh yeah, very publicly available. And I also do work with people one-on-one. So if a one-on-one container is appealing, um, I have a three-month program or kind of like shadow journey walk called Empress of Fortune. And if that's appealing, you can apply. It's on also on my website. Um yeah, I'm not as like available, honestly. I'm like, there's nothing you can't you can't get to me. I do not wish to be perceived. I do not, I know. Well, it's like I'm only perceivable in a container. I mean, it's like I've done my time, right? Like it's like 12, you know, I'm 12 years in. I'm like, at this point, it's like very contained. Um, and I have really figured out like how I want to work. But, you know, those containers open. Um, and if you are interested in general, like just like learning things about what we've been talking about today, I have a book. It's called Money Magic. Um, there's, you know, tons of there's YouTube, there's lots of podcasts and different things that I've written, and it's all on the website.
SPEAKER_01:That's awesome. So um, in addition to your website, is it moneywitch.com? What's another good way for people to find you, support your work? Is your YouTube and Instagram all the same handle?
SPEAKER_00:Um, Instagram is money.witch because, you know, of course, the person who's at MoneyWitch is like some guy who has not been on Instagram in like 15 years or whatever. Um, but it's money.witch. Um and YouTube is yeah, at MoneyWitch. Those are those are the places I'm the most active. I'm on TikTok at the real moneywitch, but like who knows what's even happening.
SPEAKER_01:I know it's TikTok. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And I'm not, I don't know, I haven't been like creating a lot of content the last two to three years. But I do my Money Magic memes um on Instagram and they're pretty good. So, and I used to do them every Monday, but now I just kind of like do them when I want.
SPEAKER_01:I love that for you.
unknown:Thanks.
SPEAKER_01:Well, thank you so much for chatting with us. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you for the platform and you know, all of the healing. And I don't know. I want to just really honor like you all are here offering container and guidance to your people and um really being like a support and a light in the healing trajectory of so many people's lives. So thank you for weaving me into that and thank you for holding that space for so many people.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you so much. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01:Music by Deal Moon. Artwork by Lane Friend. Follow us at Immaterial World Pod on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube. Visit our website at www.immaterial world dot com. Or send us an email at Immaterial World Pod gmail.