PLANT MEDICINE with Coby Michael

Coby Michael is an occult herbalist and magical practitioner specializing in the ritual use of poisonous and psychoactive plants. He studied religion at Arizona State University and has been a folk herbalist since a young age. He owns and operates The Poisoner’s Apothecary, an online shop and educational resource for The Poison Path. Coby has been blogging since 2016 and is a prolific writer including articles for This Witch Magazine, The Witches' Almanac, and Alraune. Coby is author of The Poison Path Herbal, The Poison Path Grimoire and the forthcoming titles The Poison Path Oracle, creator of The Poison Path Oracle Deck and Herbal Magic for Dummies. He is also co-author of Leo Witch. Coby is the founder of Botanica Obscura Conference, an annual gathering of magical plant practitioners from around the world sharing their plant spirit knowledge. He travels the country teaching people about plant magic, the Poison Path, occult herbalism and plant medicine.

In this episode, Coby discusses poison as a plant ally in healing through shadow work, as a tool for beauty and glamour magic, plus so much more. 

The Botanica Obscura Conference is celebrating its fifth anniversary this year, and being held digitally from March 6-8th. It is a gathering of herbalists, plant medicine practitioners, green witches, alchemists, botanists, and other plant-passionate people from around the world, seeking to connect with people and plants and facilitate community and resource sharing between plant practitioners of all kinds. All presentations are live and recorded. 

Tickets available at https://www.thepoisonersapothecary.com/shop/botanica-obscura-conference

For more about Coby visit:

www.thepoisonersapothecary.com

Instagram: @poisonersapothecary and @botanicaobscuraconference

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:06

Welcome to Immaterial World, a dedicated and transparent space to recenter how we explore glamour, magic, culture, and everything else we love together.

SPEAKER_02 0:24

As far as the galaxy goes, we're flying in the in the material world. In the material world, coming in the material world.

SPEAKER_00 0:53

Kobe Michael is an occult herbalist and plant medicine practitioner, specializing in poisonous and psychoactive plants, particularly for their magical and spiritual properties. He is the owner of the Poisoners Apothecary, a blog and online shop where he makes a wide array of formulas, working with plants like Deadly Nightshade and Fly Agaric Mushroom. Kobe creates ritual formulas and talismanic jewelry inspired by poisonous plants and their use in witchcraft and ceremony. He writes prolifically and teaches workshops on the poison path, flying ointments, occult herbalism, and psychedelic spirituality.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

Kobe has a background in religious studies, traditional witchcraft, North American folk magic, and phytochemistry. He is also the host and creator of Botanica Obscura Conference, an annual gathering of magical plant practitioners from around the world sharing their plant spirit knowledge.

Botanica Obscura Conference Details

SPEAKER_00 1:55

The Botanica Obscura Conference is celebrating its fifth anniversary this year and being held digitally from March 6th to 8th. It's a gathering of herbalists, plant medicine practitioners, green witches, alchemists, botanists, and other plant passionate people from around the world seeking to connect with people and plants and facilitate community and resource sharing between plant practitioners of all kinds. All presentations are live and recorded. Tickets are available via the link in our show notes. And I will be presenting on Romani Folk Family Herbalism, talking about herbalism in my family with a special focus on weeds and plants of resistance. And my presentation will be on March 6th at 10 a.m. Eastern Standard Time. Even if you can't make it live, if you get a ticket, either a day pass or a pass for the whole weekend, you get to watch the recordings later. So, you know, why wouldn't you? And I hope to see you there.

SPEAKER_01 3:15

I am a friend though of what one might classify as anethyogens, and I'm gonna ask our guests how to pronounce that, but I'm talking about magic mushrooms. I'm very familiar with those. So I'm gonna ask him if that counts. I'm working through my own personal fears around doing plants wrong, like really feeling so overwhelmed after decades of city living, but through a little guidance and a lot of curiosity, and what I know will be some more unlocks today after our conversation with Kobe Michael. I am getting closer to my farm life witch dreams. Kobe, welcome. I have so many questions for you.

SPEAKER_03 3:55

Hey, thank you. I'm excited to be here. I think I might be the perfect person to answer them, too. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 4:01

Okay, first of all, tell me how do I pronounce this word?

SPEAKER_03 4:04

Oh so the word? Yeah, there you go.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

Okay, perfect.

SPEAKER_03 4:08

Entheogen, and theogen.

SPEAKER_01 4:10

Are we going to say that magic mushrooms count in that category, or are we gonna break out break it down a little bit more?

SPEAKER_03 4:17

No, definitely. Uh so magic mushrooms and psychedelic fungi are part of the family of, I guess we could say, substances known as entheogens.

Kobe’s Path To Occult Herbalism

SPEAKER_01 4:31

Perfect. Okay, so I am a little bit more familiar than I thought I was. So so excited. We're gonna unlock it more today. Um, Kobe, uh, tell us a little bit about your personal journey that led us here. How did you become a practitioner of occult herbalism? And also what does that even mean?

SPEAKER_03 4:50

That is a really good question. Um so plants have been part of my life since I was a really young child. Uh, I grew up in the garden with my grandparents. Uh, my grandfather was a part of a long line of farmers and gardeners. And so spending time out in the yard and planting and growing things was a big part of my upbringing. So I always felt a really kind of intimate connection to the natural world in that respect, and you know, just like a sense of of peace and safety and and happiness kind of being out and about and around all of the little plants. So even before I guess I started my spiritual journey, um felt this connection to the natural world. So um yeah, it goes way, way, way back into my childhood. And then it just kind of blossomed into what it is today with my work in occult herbalism. Uh, so I call myself an occult herbalist basically to distinguish myself from like clinical herbalism. So I'm not like a practicing herbalist treating people with various conditions or suggesting herbs for people to take for health or wellness. Uh while I do have a background in that, it's not my main focus. Uh, so I focus more on the ritual, ceremonial, and spiritual uses of plants and of course fungi in more of a magical context.

Animism, Plant Spirits & Correspondences

SPEAKER_00 6:27

This makes me so happy. Um I just love talking about plants. So, how can herbs support someone's spiritual practice, especially if they're brand new to the territory, whether that's alternative spiritual practice or herbs or both? And what are the types of poisonous plants that one might work with? In your book, The Poison Path Herbal, you mention baneful plants and theogens and plant spirit allies. So we would love you to walk us through what these are and how do we hang out with them?

Beginner Allies: Teas, Tonics, Flower Essences

SPEAKER_03 7:02

Okay, so try to give like an in an in the nutshell kind of an answer to that question. So, in animistic belief systems, the belief that everything has a spirit and a consciousness, plants are are part of that cosmology. So we see them as um independent points of consciousness that we're able to connect with, just like we would, you know, a person walking down the street or you know, maybe working with a specific deity or a specific energy, we're able to connect with that consciousness. So plants are innately spiritual because they contain a spirit and a consciousness, and we're able to connect with that to receive information, knowledge, insight, healing, um, all sorts of different things. So plants are basically like these little antenna that are picking up the energy of the universe and kind of transmuting it in various different ways at any given time. Um, when we think about them as being like exposed to the elements in the environment, um, the different things happening in the solar system, astrologically, plants are sort of the physical manifestation of all of these different energies. Um, and we as humans that like to kind of categorize everything and organize everything into its own different category have done that with plants for for thousands of years. And so we've got different categories of plants that are known for treating different types of diseases, um, curing different things, and they all fall into these different categories known as correspondences. And then the correspondences branch out into other associated areas like planetary correspondence, elemental correspondence, and that gives us an idea of that plant's particular energy and personality, and also connects to um its medicinal action as well. So we're able to kind of tap into this secret language that exists in nature through our plant allies and through the spirits that inhabit them. Uh, and through that, we can incorporate them into um, you know, our magical practices, our rituals, uh, we can partner with them in our own healing journey. You know, so beyond the plant's physical characteristics and its chemical compounds, there is this spiritual quality to that too. And when we are able to kind of bring all of that together, it can have some really, really profound and exciting results when it comes to partnering with plants in a more conscious kind of a way.

SPEAKER_01 10:06

Okay, that is so helpful because I worked with an evolutionary astrologer over the summer who, as we were breaking down certain transits that I was going through or that I would be moving through, uh, recommended plant allies and floral remedies specific to the assistance that she thought that I would need, especially with support for self-trust and grief work, a lot of like eighth house stuff specifically, if you're into astrology. So I found this really enlightening in how plants can help us move through some of the different healing modalities. And you know, you were talking about spiritual allies. And for me in particular, it was working with Chiron or working with Uranus disruptions. So there was a lot of really specific plant pairings that she was talking about. So for someone as green as me, where do we start with tapping into what herbalism could offer, especially if we're already working with divination or healing modalities or astrology, or even for people that just do full moon manifesting and they like to journal? What sort of herbs would you say that a beginner could start with?

SPEAKER_03 11:16

Um, of course, there's going to be, you know, like your general health herbs or what I refer to as like tonic herbs. So kind of think of things that you would find in the tea aisle at the grocery store. You know, stuff like lavender, lemon balm, chamomile, rose, um, stuff that's going to be gentle and generally supportive, you know, for overall health, things that are going to be safe for, you know, the broadest spectrum of people that can be safely taken on a regular basis without any issues of contraindications. Uh, I think those would kind of be the things to start with if you're you're brand new to working with herbs. Uh, you know, I think that that the majority of people have probably had an herbal tea or encountered herbs in in some way, you know, with the fact that we use them to season our foods and they're just kind of already all around us. So you've probably already had some kind of an encounter uh with an herb. But those general um tonic herbs are going to be the safest to work with across the board. Um, now, in reference to the the flower essences and the floral remedies that Jess was talking about with the astrological pairing, uh, those are going to be safe for anyone to work with because flower essences are uh what we call vibrational remedies. So they're kind of similar to homeopathic remedies, uh, but they're a little bit different in that flower essences are purely um energetic formulations. Uh, so they don't actually contain any kind of um therapeutic dose of plant material. Uh so that makes them really helpful specifically for um any kind of like energetic work or mental, emotional, spiritual pursuits. Um, they're not going to be, you know, physically medicinal. So like a flower essence isn't going to cure a cold or make your headache go away or help your digestive system. Um, they're purely vibrational and energetic. Uh, so this quality makes them really, really helpful for long-term working, uh, incorporating them into like meditation, um, shadow work, journeying, uh, all of those things on the more like metaphysical end of the spectrum when it comes to uh our healing journeys. Uh so because flower essences are purely energetic formulations, they're also a really safe way to work with some of the more um poisonous or toxic plants out there. Uh so plants that we would in clinical herbalism refer to as low-dose herbs. Uh so these would be things like deadly nightshade, um, acinite, hemlock, herbs that in their physical form would be very risky for us to consume in their energetic and flower essence form are completely safe to work with because they don't actually contain those chemical compounds that can make a plant um potentially toxic. If that makes sense.

Rethinking Poison: Context And Safety

SPEAKER_00 14:57

Yeah, I'm so glad that you mentioned too that we already work with herbs all the time when we're seasoning our food or drinking tea. And so even if people are like, oh man, I want to get into herbalism, but I'm so overwhelmed. It's like if you're intentionally using that basil, you're already doing it. But I know that Jess had some questions about the poison path.

SPEAKER_01 15:19

Yes, I mean, I remember hemlock from reading Romeo and Juliet back in school. But I mean, when you say poison, that has such a specific connotation and it really evokes a very specific feeling, that word. So, especially for people like me that aren't as familiar with the plant world, poison feels like a toxin. It feels like an agent of destruction. What does it mean to be on the poison path or to work with poisonous plants and how can we do that in a safe way?

SPEAKER_03 15:50

Yeah, poison really does evoke a very specific and oftentimes like dramatic kind of reaction. And just in the linguistics of the word poison and you know what we've come to associate that word with over the years, it is a really, really interesting concept to kind of sit with and contemplate and look at, you know, from a poison being used to refer to specific plants that may have uh a toxic or potentially lethal effect to poison being a um an adjective used to refer to, you know, toxic people or toxic situations.

SPEAKER_01 16:37

I love that. I love that so much. Amazing.

SPEAKER_03 16:42

Yeah, it gets applied, it gets applied to a lot of different things in a lot of different ways, and that's something that's been really interesting for me as part of my journey on the poison path is looking at this concept of poison and toxin uh and venom and what this actually means and implies, and the different ways that it's um you know been used in different time periods and you know, various different languages, and just all of the different little connotations that are out there. So poison is very much this blanket term that gets applied to you know a wide variety of plants with really, really dramatically different effects. Um, you know, so you think of like poison ivy versus poison hemlock. Um, you know, poison ivy, when you come into contact with that, it may cause rash or irritation. Um, poison hemlock, very, very different. Coming into contact with that, you know, could potentially kill you. Um it's the the herb that was used to execute Socrates, uh pops up in Shakespeare, who had a love for the the literary use of of poisonous plants because they are so dramatic. Uh so we see it pop up all over, you know, throughout culture and religion and um ways that we kind of express different things. So it when it comes to to plants and herbs and fungi, it kind of acts as a red flag to tell us that you know it's something that warrants a closer look. So really coming to understand plants on an individual basis as far as what their herbal actions actually are and how to work with that plant safely, um, you know, through its its individual characteristics. So not all plants are going to act the same. Um, we could even look at something as innocuous as chamomile, you know, in the the wrong circumstances. For instance, if you're taking blood thinners, um, can be very dangerous. Um, so that's not an herb that we typically associate with being poisonous, but in the right context, it can be very dangerous on that individual basis. Um, you know, same thing with mugwort. It's a really, really popular um herb for divination and full moon workings, and people will burn it as incense and drink it as tea or put it in their baths. Um, but if you're pregnant or nursing or trying to become pregnant, you know, it can potentially act in a way that would be very detrimental and in some ways, you know, potentially poisonous. So it's all about context, it's all about the the individual plants and their individual constituents. And that's really what the poison path has kind of become about for me, uh, is really sort of understanding the nuance that exists with on within this umbrella of poison. Uh, and that doesn't just apply to plants, but it also applies to, you know, more metaphysical concepts, energetics, different spiritual, psychic energies, uh, metaphor. Um, so it's really kind of a rabbit hole that you start to to get yourself into when you really look at poison and all of the different ways that it's popped up throughout um human history.

SPEAKER_00 20:28

This is so cool. I mean, I love to use Datura flower essence to help process trauma, especially intergenerational trauma, personally, and work through fear. Do you have a few specific poison plant allies that you really like to use and why and how?

SPEAKER_03 20:45

Um, datura is a really, really popular one. And, you know, there are a variety of daturas, um, you know, most of them native to North and South America, with one of the right varieties, uh Datura Mattel, being native to the Indian subcontinent. Um, they do exhibit, you know, slight differences when it comes to their personalities, and I think part of that has to do with the sort of cultural lens that that particular plant spirit has developed alongside, uh, because we influence the plants as much as they influence us. So I think that that kind of shapes their personality and their characteristics, because that's just a part of their origin story. Um, but Datura in particular does seem to be one of the most popular ones. Uh and like you mentioned, it's very good for uh breaking intergenerational trauma, unhealthy attachments, uh, you know, exploring ancestry, even getting into things like past lives and things like that. And I feel like so many of us kind of in this this current generation. Um are working on healing some of those ancestral wounds, which is something that Datura just seems to be very, very willing and able to help with. So that's one that gets used an awful lot. And then for me, as far as like working with them as allies in flower essence form, Foxglove is probably the one that I work with the most. So Foxglove in particular is really helpful for any kind of healing having to do with the heart. So whether that is like, you know, getting out of a relationship or healing a broken heart or anything having to do with like emotions. It's also really, really good for empaths or people that pick up on the emotions of other people. Kind of uh a strengthening and opening the heart at the same time to help people through various different healing processes, you know, because so many of those are tied to the heart and the emotions and kind of our our boundaries, you know. So we want to be able to go through that healing process and kind of give ourselves the space and the security to be able to do that, but also, you know, still still keep our hearts open so that we're able to receive the the good things that have yet to come. And I think in a lot of cases when we are going through difficult or traumatic healing processes, we sort of put up walls to protect ourselves that then kind of become a cage in the long run. Um, so foxglove in particular really helps with that to allow for the process, allow for the healing, but to also like keep the energy moving and keep it flowing because we don't want to stay in that fight or flight state of mind, um, but keep that energy moving so that we can integrate and you know move forward with the healing process. So for me, it's uh foxglove is my favorite to work with.

Working With Plant Spirits Beyond The Physical

SPEAKER_00 24:15

That's so lovely. I also just love how beautiful the flowers are, and I think it's it's really magical that we can work with things like flower essences or even just meditate with the spirit of the flower to work with these things that we really shouldn't be putting in our mouths generally. And I think it it reminds me how magical this work really can be. You don't even have to be literally with the plant to work with it.

SPEAKER_03 24:42

Yeah, that's so true. And I think that that is one thing that the the plants associated with the poison path are really, really good at teaching us is the fact that we don't have to, you know, have the physical plant right next to us, or we don't have to be like ingesting plant material that we can connect with these spirits and their energies, you know, in the same way that we would connect with any other type of energy, you know, so it's no different than like working with the energy of the full moon or devotional practice with a specific deity or an ancestor spirit. You know, we've got all of these tools at our disposal to connect with these different energies that plants are really no different. And I think the fact that you know that we can eat them and that we use them in in medicine and in all of these other ways that we're putting them like in and on our bodies, we kind of get like tripped up on that physical aspect. But when we think about it from um, you know, an animistic perspective, like these plants have such huge personalities and such you know interesting and amazing stories that we can you know tap into that energy and that consciousness just through sort of that desire to connect.

SPEAKER_01 26:06

Wait, I love this so much, and I will make a confession. If you you did see the flowers that are behind me and when we're recording, and one of the flowers that I have, the faux flowers, is on recommendation of someone that I was doing ritual with, and they said you should buy X plant, and I could not find anything online because it is a poisonous plant. However, at a local pottery barn, they did have a faux version of that plant on clearance, and I was like, add to cart. And I ran over and got it. And there is something very comforting when I'm doing ritual to just look at it and say, okay, I'm working with this plant ally. So I hope that counts for something.

SPEAKER_03 26:47

Yeah, that absolutely counts. Yeah, it's you know, it's no different than having like a statue of the goddess Hecate to connect with her. You know, it's it's that imagery, and it's through that imagery and the shape and the colors and all of those different sensory cues that the plants communicate to us, like who they are as people. Um you know, so having an image of a particular plant, or you know, getting a tattoo of a plant that you really feel you have a connection to. It's that that sort of affinity, that you know, invisible cord that connects us to that particular spirit that is important, not you know, being being able to grow it and harvest it and you know, have its its physical body kind of at our our disposal, you know, for for being a a green witch, I definitely feel like I have a black thumb. And so I always try and like remind people like I love this.

SPEAKER_02 27:54

That's so sweet. It's so sweet.

SPEAKER_03 27:58

Yeah, but like it's so true. While I enjoy growing things when they when they flourish and when they want to grow, you know, I'm I'm a very like do your own thing. Like if you're gonna grow, great. If not, great. Like I'm not gonna be over here with a little dropper, like tweaking the soil and shifting things around and trying to calibrate like the the exact specific amount of light that you should receive on a Tuesday. Like, just do your thing, and if you're gonna do it, that's awesome. If not, that's okay too.

Poison Plants In Beauty History

SPEAKER_01 28:33

Like this makes me feel so much better. Thank you. Because in my mind's eye, you are that person, like you're in a little greenhouse and you have your little dropper, and everything is so perfect and beautiful. So I will not ruin that fantasy in my own mind, but that is so helpful to hear that not all of us have to be the perfect green witch to participate in herbalism. Um, talk to me a little bit about something I am more familiar with. You have a background in cosmetology as well. So we love a crossover, we love talking about the intersection of worlds. How have poison plants featured in beauty rituals and products throughout history? And how might how might we be using them now or interacting with them now in that way?

Glamour Magic: Seduction And Shielding

SPEAKER_03 29:21

Well, it's just really weird, like how in retrospect everything kind of connects, and it's like you go through life and you do all of these different things, and you kind of look at them as their own separate thing, but then you get to a certain point and then you look back and you're like, wow, like that was all sort of like laying laying the ground and leading up to the place that I'm at now. And so this is kind of the like the perfect sort of example of that. Um, so I worked in the beauty industry for I think about a decade. Um I'm a licensed cosmetologist, and then I worked as a beauty culture instructor at a beauty school um for about eight years, and I specialized in chemical services, color theory, um, a little bit of everything, to be honest. Uh so I grew up in the beauty industry. My mom's also a cosmetologist, so it's just sort of always been part of my world. Um, and then interestingly, you know, like come to find out all of the sort of connection and crossover that there is um, you know, between like beautification practices or you know, beautification rituals, if we want to call them that, and and magical practice and spell work and our ability to manifest things, it's just like like I could probably write an entire book about that um in and of itself. Um, but you know, when it comes to cosmetics and poisonous plants or poisons in general, um they they have a very um extensive uh history, um, which I think is is pretty interesting and it says a lot about what we are willing to do to achieve the looks that we're wanting to achieve. So we see I think a little bit more poisonous mineral compounds in cosmetics and various different beauty products than we do actual plant compounds. Um, so the one that I would say from the plant world would be Deadly Nightshade or the plant um, also known as Belladonna. Uh, Belladonna is said to get that name from the practice of uh Renaissance Italian women that would take the juice from the berries and put it in their eyes. Uh, they would do that because the chemical compound atropine, which is present in all members of the nightshade family, uh, has what's called a midriatic effect. So it dilates the pupils. Uh, it was actually at one point used in ophthalmology exams to for the same reason to dilate a person's pupils. Um, but the idea behind that being that a person with dilated pupils was um thought to, well, I mean, there's like a biological component to this too, because when a person is sexually aroused, their pupils will typically dilate. Um, so I think subconsciously that translated into people with bigger pupils looked more sexually receptive and thereby more beautiful, kind of giving the person like that doe-eyed effect, which is maybe even where that saying came from. Um, but they would take the juice from the Deadly Nightshade berries and put it in their eyes to dilate the pupils, and that's where the name, the common name Belladonna came from, um, because Belladonna means basically beautiful lady or good lady. Um, I haven't found like an actual historical source on where that specifically originated from, but that's kind of the saying with that. Uh, but you know, cosmetics in general, since ancient times, have had all sorts of different poisonous compounds. Uh, so we have cinnabar, which is a mineral that is derived from toxic mercury that was used in cosmetic preparations to uh give it the the red color. Um so we know mercury is very toxic. Now I also see lead being used in a lot of different beauty products uh from the lead and antimony that is found in uh different coal eyeliner preparations that would have been used throughout uh North Africa, the Middle East, Southwest Asia, uh into the Mediterranean, as far as like lining the eyes with like that darker um pigment. Those formulas often contained toxic minerals. Uh, and then all the way into you know, like the pre-modern era, the renaissance, um, the Elizabethan period, different cosmetic preparations that were meant to give people a basically like a pale skin tone, um, and in a lot of cases to cover up like wounds and scars that were caused by smallpox. Um, there was a cosmetic preparation that was called um Venice, Venice White or Venice, I can't remember the other name for it. Um, but it it basically had lead in it, and for a brief period of time, that would give the person a very uh pale and flawless kind of complexion, because that's what people were going for um during that time. Uh, but it would also cause lead poisoning and um lesions, uh, it could cause the person's hair to fall out, and you know, eventually like they would they would die from lead poisoning. So basically, just a very slow way of poisoning themselves. Um, so poison has been part of sort of our effort to beautify for thousands of years, and it you know, it still hasn't gone away when you think of like Botox is basically a toxin um that we're using to paralyze our facial muscles to get rid of wrinkles. Um, there used to be a really I think it was really popular, it was called um nearum. This was back when I was still in the beauty industry, but it was a skincare line. Yeah, nearly um skincare. And I was looking into it because I recognized the the word nirium, and it's actually part of the Latin name for a plant that's called white oleander. Um, so this facial line actually used an extract from this plant that's like extremely poisonous, and I'm sure like there was probably some kind of a process that made it so it wasn't because it's you know being sold, sold like any other cosmetic line. Um, but just interesting that the extract from that that particular plant was used in this this beautification product. So it's like a whole nother rabbit hole that you can go down uh when it comes to like all of the different toxins that have been in cosmetics and beauty products, you know, for thousands of years.

SPEAKER_00 37:11

I get so fascinated by these things, probably because I'm slightly morbid. Like I was definitely the kid reading a collection of Poe when I was nine in an old cemetery that I found in the woods. So I love this kind of thing where I'm like, oh, tell me everything weird. But um, there's also another little branch that we could look at with herbs and poison plant allies and cosmetics. Let's talk about glamour magic. So we have talked a little bit about glamour magic before on the show with Caitlin Feise and a smattering here or there. But we always love to hear from your perspective what is glamour magic and how are these poison plant allies helpful?

Everyday Poison Plants Around Us

SPEAKER_03 37:54

Glamor magic is a lot of different things. I think that you know, we typically associate it with beauty or you know, some kind of an aesthetic quality. But glamour magic is essentially the projection of a specific stimuli to uh attract a desired effect. You know, so that could be glamour magic to get a new job or get a promotion, you know, by using glamour magic to make yourself be perceived as the most qualified person for the position. Um, you know, we could have glamour magic, which I think is like the more common association to attract a romantic partner, because that's more tied into like the more aesthetic side of glamour and beauty and appearance and attraction and influence. Um, but we can also use glamour magic in sort of the opposite way as a form of protection magic, you know, casting an aura of, you know, don't fuck with me, do not approach, like giving off these very like dangerous, dangerous kind of vibes. So we can glamour in all sorts of different ways. The glamour is basically our projection of the specific type of energy that's going to bring in that desired effect. Um, I think that glamour magic is it's a very like individual practice. And I've kind of been like thinking about this all afternoon when we get into you know the topic of beauty standards and all that that kind of entails. Glamour magic is a lot more than that. I think it has more to do with you know personal empowerment. So, in a way, we're kind of glamouring ourselves first before we glamour other people. Um, so kind of like fake it till you make it, or convincing yourself of the thing that it is that you're trying to put out there before other people will believe it. Um, there was a really interesting article that actually just popped up like over the past few days, to my awareness, that was uh put out on the wild hunt, and it was by Beatrice Kondo, and it's all about the um the Korean beauty products and kind of like the glass skin facial regimen within like the context of being kind of like a a spell or a ritual that a person would perform, and it goes into the patriarchal aspects of different beauty standards and you know, capitalizing on self-care, which you know used to be something that we practiced, not something that we purchased. Um, so that's a really good article that kind of incorporates like glamour magic into like the cosmetic industry and also um, you know, like fuck the patriarchy, anti-capitalistic sort of a way. So definitely check that out. But poisonous plants, bringing it back around, are in my opinion, super effective for glamour magic. And I write about it a lot in my second book, The Poison Path Grimoire, because a lot of the plants that we consider poisonous or sort of the like the main players on the poison path, specifically the members of the nightshade family, so like Deadly Nightshade, Datura, Henbane, Mandrake, uh, have actually been used for their aphrodisiac effects for a very long time. Uh, and kind of even before their associations with European witchcraft and the witches' sabots and all of these kind of diabolical things, um, you know, through folklore and Christian superstition, uh, they were all used for their aphrodisiac uses and various love potions and love filters. Uh, so while they do have this poisonous side to them, this darker side, they also have this very um seductive, manipulative, and influential kind of a side to them, too. So it makes them um very powerful allies for glamour magic, uh regardless of the context, because they do have that sort of more demure Venusian aspect of you know, luring and attracting things in, but then they've also got this more like sadistic uh Saturnian, you know, BDSM kind of a vibe to them too. So um for glamour magic of a variety of different purposes.

SPEAKER_01 42:59

I am loving this naughty and nice combo that you are offering us. I'm taking a lot of notes. Um, are there any everyday poison plants that might be all around us, but we overlook them or take them for granted? How can we be more conscious of these relationships?

SPEAKER_03 43:22

Um, I mean, they're everywhere. They're poison is is everything and and nothing all at the same time. So they're probably like right next to you or in your vicinity on a daily basis, and you don't really even realize it. Um a lot of the house plants that people are so in love with that are so like aesthetic and instagrammable are actually poisonous to some degree. Um, not in the sense that they'll necessarily kill you, um, but you know, the majority of them being inedible. Uh, you know, so things like potha. Snake plant. You know, we just had like the whole holiday season. So Point Seta is another one that kind of falls in that category. A lot of them, you know, they'll just irritate your stomach or cause like really intense gastrointestinal issues or give you like pins and needles in your mouth if you, for whatever reason, decide to start chewing on your houseplants. But they are, you know, in a sense, poisonous in their own right as well. You know, a lot of the things that we consider ornamentals, um, you know, things that we grow in the garden just because they're pretty, um, they're not used as like a food source. Those are also poisonous, you know. So it's like if we could eat it, then we probably would have, you know, incorporated it into agriculture and grown it as a food crop. So if we can't eat it, then we usually just grow it because it's pretty.

Gifts From The Poison Path

SPEAKER_00 45:03

That's such a good point. I also love if we if we could eat it, we we'd probably be eating it. Um I'm really interested in story time. Um what's a gift that you've received from working with the plants? And feel free to tell us a story. And gift can be really anything. Interpret it any way you want.

SPEAKER_03 45:28

Oh boy. Yeah, that's so the plants and I have a really interesting kind of relationship. We like to joke around with each other, you know, they have given me an awful lot, um, but it's also, you know, been me probably kicking and screaming most of the way. Um, but here we go. Interestingly, sidebar, the word gift in English, which we typically associate with like a present or a blessing, or you know, something that is given or bestowed upon us uh in German actually means poison. So in German, gift Plansen means poisonous plant. So kind of an interesting connection um between this next question and our theme of poisonous plants, and that gift in one language literally means poison.

SPEAKER_00 46:30

Um that's so cool. I had no idea.

SPEAKER_03 46:33

Yeah, and that kind of parallels, you know, every every gift kind of comes with its price. You know, every gift is is potentially a curse or a burden. Birthday presents aside, you know, I'm talking more about like non-tangible gifts or things that we we receive. Um, you know, all of that kind of comes with a price, and that's definitely been, you know, kind of the the theme with my my work and journey with with poisonous plants. Um it's sort of this ability to go into these really dark places and kind of navigate them to gain a deeper understanding. Um, but I think the the gift in that being the the ability to pull yourself out of those places, which is kind of the most important part because you don't want to get stuck in a really uh dark and nasty place. Oh, so the the plants that I work with and sort of my work on the poison path in general has kind of been a long and continued journey of going into these darker places within myself and kind of processing things, um, working through things, you know, holding space for for different emotions or different um, you know, what we could call intrusive thoughts that are not necessarily the nicest things to sit with, but then sort of transmuting that into you know something positive and something productive. Um, a lot of a lot of what I talk about when it comes to, you know, sort of my own personal experience and the work that I've been doing with these plants for I think close to a decade now has been through uh my own journey in recovery from addiction to prescription opioids. Um so the plants that I work with, or the plant spirits specifically, um, have played a really large role in that sort of uh transformational process. But it's really, you know, been a lot, a lot more than that, too. It's just kind of um, you know, hollowed me out and honed me in a way that I'm able to uh kind of power through power through some of these more uh difficult experiences when it comes to you know healing from trauma and dealing with grief and you know processing you know emotions like not only for myself, but like for other people and for like the world at large, and just like what the fuck do we do with like all of this rage that is like running through us at any given time? And just being able to kind of move move those things around while still navigating in a in a human human body can be a pretty intense experience. So I think in a lot of ways they've they've acted as a support system with that.

SPEAKER_01 49:46

Now that you're mentioning that, is there any plant or herb or floralescence that you would recommend for working with rage in these times? I think that could be helpful for a lot of people listening.

SPEAKER_00 49:58

Yeah, I was just like, oh my God, why haven't I talked to poison plants about how America is super fascist?

Rage, Resistance & Anti‑Fascist Plant Spirits

SPEAKER_03 50:04

Oh my gosh, yeah. Oh I get I just get goosebumps even thinking about it. Like the plants are just as angry as we are. And I'm like looking over at my henbane and my mandrakes right now. They're like giving me the side eye. Um, so you know, poisonous plants in general are very anti-patriarchal, anti-fascist. They're all about like breaking down all of these just outdated constructs that we exist in. Um you know, from capitalism to like this glorification of of masculine masculinity, you know, all of all of it. Um sorry, I'm getting I'm getting emotional and angry.

SPEAKER_01 51:00

Um that's allowed, that's allowed for sure.

SPEAKER_03 51:03

You know, they are they're just that it's it's so deeply woven into their nature and into their stories that it's it's hard to even like verbalize it, but like these on the one hand, these plant spirits are are very supportive and very healing and you know wanting to carry us through like the the dark times, not only like in our personal life but collectively. Um, but on the other hand, you know, these are very vicious warrior-like spirits that are capable of you know ripping us apart and you know, literally killing us in a lot of cases. So they do have like this very, very vicious side to them, um, and they've been part of you know, sort of this undermining of these authoritarian regimes and structures and you know social contracts that have existed for, you know, like at least the the past 2,000 years. Uh you know, the the act of of poisoning in particular being associated with with women and marginalized communities, uh, because it is literally the the last resort weapon of the underdog and those that are the most oppressed and the most powerless. So it's like literally, like in a spiritual context, it is the the antithesis of just like all of the the shit that is going on in the world right now. And um, you know, it kind of in a really strange way when my second book, The Poison Path Grimoire, came out, it was actually like the the release date was the day after this past election. So it was like, yeah, no last November 7th or whatever. And then reading through like the first couple chapters, first few pages of the book, it was like literally this kind of low-key battle cry against all of this. And I'm talking about all of these, you know, different feminine figures throughout history and you know, popping up in mythology that have some kind of a connection to you know, poison that in some way are now like these you know feminist folk heroes, you know. So like Medusa, for example, that fierce feminine, monstrous kind of energy, uh, you know, turned outward to protect against you know all of the uh atrocities kind of committed against that depiction of you know feminine energy. And then Julia Tofana, who like literally poisoned over 600 men to help liberate the the women married to those men from their unwanted conditions. Like these are literally like the you know the the vilified heroes of the story.

SPEAKER_00 54:41

Thank you so much for sharing that. I'm so moved, and it's this is exactly why we wanted to talk to you. Uh you have studied and embodied so many of these stories, and you have such close relationships with these plant spirits, and it's a beautiful practice if you are feeling called to it to look into how excuse me, how poison plants um can be there to help you process, but also to help you fight the good fight or you know, whatever else I call you to do.

SPEAKER_03 55:18

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_00 55:24

Actually, you know, you have a new deck. I got like caught up in that moment. You have a new deck too. Um, the poison path oracle. Can you tell us about your inspiration to create it and how could people incorporate that into their practice? And um feel free to do a little sample spread too if you want to share a reading with the listeners.

The Poison Path Oracle Deck & Sample Reading

SPEAKER_03 55:46

All right. So the Poison Path Oracle is my new deck that will be out in September. Um, so that's September 2026. It's a 36 card Oracle deck that features 23 plant cards. Um, so we've got different poisonous and baneful herbs that make up those 23 cards. So everything from Deadly Nightshade to you know, plants like Venus Fly Trap that might not necessarily be poisonous by the definition, but have like some sort of a kind of an otherworldly or strange quality about them, and then 13 uh poisoner cards. So out of the 13 poisoner cards, these are all different figures throughout history and mythology that have some kind of a connection to poison or poisoning. Um so we've got Cleopatra, Catherine de' Medici, Julia Tofana, uh, even the goddess Venus or Aphrodite. So all of these very ferocious and fierce feminine figures that have some sort of a poisonous element to them. Um so the special thing about this deck is that it looks at um the concept of poison as medicine and medicine as poison. Um, so it's a very commonly uh quoted saying um that was originally said by Paracelsus that poison is in the dose. So it's this idea that anything can be potentially harmful and anything can be potentially beneficial. Uh so the deck kind of plays on that, and each card has kind of its general divinatory meaning, uh, and then it also has a specific meaning for that particular card's poison and that particular card's medicine. Um so the poison would be, you know, sort of the the reversed meaning, uh, or the more quote negative connotation, and then the more the medicine would be uh sort of what I guess a more positive quality or what can be achieved through transmuting that poison into something beneficial. So we're able to kind of draw from both of those when it comes to uh the meaning for each of those. And then I do have um this kind of I guess a sample spread to give you an idea of what a reading with the deck looks like. Uh, and since it is an Oracle deck, you know, you can do like a single card draw and get meaning out of that. Um, but then I've also come up with a couple of other spreads that kind of um play on the unique qualities of that particular of the particular deck. Um so the spread that I have is called the Gate of Venus. This is a five-card spread, makes up the shape of a pentagram. It's an inverted pentagram, so the point is pointing downward. So we've got five cards, and we're reading those cards horizontally as well as kind of collectively. So cards one and two go together, cards three and four go together, and then card five, which is the point, is kind of the culmination. So for this sample spread, the question being: what can I expect from this new romantic relationship? And the cards that we draw are Cleopatra, Deadly Nightshade, Black Nightshade, Venus Fly Trap, and Foxglove. So to interpret that, we would look at cards one and two, Cleopatra and Deadly Nightshade, and see how they combine to give us our interpretation. Uh so right away we have Cleopatra and Deadly Nightshade coming together, telling the Quarrant to be ready to walk away. Deadly Nightshade is warning of misguided infatuation and a need to look within and ask oneself why you are in this relationship in the first place. What seems comfortable is not always what is best for us. And it is all too easy to use romantic relationships to distract ourselves from the unresolved personal issues within. So it's a very like sometimes the deck hits kind of hard. It says things that people might not want to hear, but I think that's kind of the point of a poison plant deck is that it's not always going to be uh, you know, super fluffy and gentle. It's going to, you know, give us like cold hard truths in a lot of cases.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:58

I don't know. I really do. Because I mean I do love an Oracle deck and I love a warm, fuzzy Oracle deck, but um that is my critique of using them exclusively, is that sometimes they don't get you to that cold hard truth.

Divination, Self‑Care & Water Practices

SPEAKER_03 1:01:13

Yeah, I do. I feel like a lot of Oracle decks are very like fortune cookie. Um, you know, you will have good luck and everything is going to be in your highest good and all work out if you believe it. So and uh this is not that deck. Uh so real quick, next we have um cards three and four, which is uh black nightshade and Venus Flytrap. Black Nightshade is a warning of the danger of repeating past patterns and being willfully ignorant to the lessons of previous relationships. It is presenting this relationship as an opportunity to finally realize and change those patterns. Venus flytrap shows up here to remind the querant to be patient, both with themselves and with the timing of this relationship. Rushing into things too quickly without addressing these old patterns as they pop up will hinder the growth of the relationship. Timing is everything here, and having patience is going to pay off in the long run. And then finally, Foxglove. While patience, understanding, and clear communication are going to be absolutely necessary in this relationship, Foxglove appears to say that if you can stay open and vulnerable while communicating difficult things to your partner, you will both have the opportunity for immense heart healing, which will in turn strengthen your relationship. Overall, this reading is telling the querant to let go of any attachment and expectation, uh, with that willingness to potentially walk away. Uh, so to be recklessly vulnerable. By being willing to recognize past patterns and address them openly with this new partner, you will both be able to grow into a healthy and balanced relationship together. Sometimes we have to be willing to lose the very thing we desire in order to allow our most authentic selves to act without fear. Uh so that's kind of the the gist of that reading.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:16

Yeah, I love how practical it is too, because it's not, I mean, it's not doom and gloom. It's like, let's get real and see what you what you can look at to grow and improve. That's beautiful. Very, very poison medicine kind of energy.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:30

Yeah, for sure. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:33

What tools and practices do you lean on in your own personal divination or when you're reaching for self-care practices?

SPEAKER_03 1:03:42

So I'm like notoriously resistant. Like I'm I'm the one that will, you know, hear the voices for days and days and days and refuse to, you know, burn any incense, or like that's probably like exactly what I need to do.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:59

Maybe you need some of that poison medicine for yourself. You need to hear, stop repeating those patterns. Give yourself some love.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:11

Um you know, I'm uh I'm like fire stellium, you know, it's a wonder that when I look at my natal chart, that the screen doesn't just like burst into flames because there's so much fire in it. Um, so when it comes to like self-care, personal practice, I try and incorporate like as much of the water element as possible because that's usually uh what I'm lacking or what I need to kind of like temper the flames. So I do, you know, like a lot of uh ritual bath type situations. You know, I also I guess I sit in the sauna a lot too, which you wouldn't think of being like associated with the water element, but because you're sweating uh and actually like moving that water through your body and kind of like um intentionally focusing on uh releasing different emotions, different uh thought processes that kind of get stuck in your head. You know, for me, like the past year or so is just like trying to figure out what to do with all of my anger that kind of comes out of nowhere and is not necessarily even mine, but it's there. Um, so working with the water element in different ways has become really helpful for that. Um, you know, when it comes to divination, I do more divination for other people than I do for myself. Um, you know, for me, since I work at home and I spend so much time uh basically on my own with the company of like the few plants that I have here. You know, like I'm constantly surrounded in my work. Um, so there is a lot of you know spiritual chatter that kind of Goes on throughout the entirety of the day. So I've kind of learned how to really like tap into that when it comes to, I guess, like divination or intuiting things for you know like my own personal life trajectory and and what I'm doing. Um so basically, you know, kind of channeling plant spirits as a form of divination.

Conference, Books & How To Connect

SPEAKER_00 1:06:26

I love that. I can really relate to doing a lot of divination for other people and being immersed in the the chatter of spirits. And I've been trying to more mindfully reroute a little bit of that energy for myself. Um I'm so excited to be in your Botanica Obscura conference, March 6th to 9th. And so if listeners have been following along and are like, oh my god, I need to learn more, this is a really good opportunity. Actually, isn't it March 5th to 9th? Did I get those dates wrong?

SPEAKER_03 1:06:59

Um, I think it's this it's the 6th until the 8th.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:02

Oh, 6th until the 8th. Okay. Yeah. So can you please uh tell us about this event and how listeners can join? I'll be presenting on um Romani Resistance in Weeds and Family Herbal Lore. So I'm pumped.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:19

Yeah, yeah. We're super excited to have you. Um so the Botanica Obscura Conference is a completely online virtual event, live and recorded. Uh, we have it every year. This is going to be the fifth year. Uh, so we'll have over 30 different presenters offering a very wide range of topics, uh, all of them plant and fungi related. Uh so we've got you know clinical herbalists, alchemists, magical practitioners, um, you know, various different folk practices, ancestral traditions being offered. Uh, so really something for everybody. If you are interested in learning more about plant-based spiritual practices or just herbalism in general, uh, we've got Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. So you can sign up for the entire weekend, or if you just want to pop in for one day. Uh, got those options. Now you can look at the whole lineup and the descriptions of all of the presentations at botanica obscuraconference.com. Um, and that will then route you over to my website, thepoisonersapothecary.com, where you can grab tickets.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:45

This is so cool. I'm really excited for you guys. Kobe, what else do you have coming up on the horizon besides the conference?

SPEAKER_03 1:08:53

Oh, well, my next book will be out at the end of March. So that is called The Poison Path Oracle. Um, that is focused on divination, spirit communication, and trance work, uh, working with the plants of the poison path. Uh, so at the beginning of the presentation, we mentioned the word entheogen. Uh, so an entheogen is basically a plant or fungi that is able to alter consciousness in ways that allow us to connect with spirit, to connect with the divine, to tap into our intuition. Uh so the poison path oracle is basically focused on that. Uh, and then I think in May I've got another book coming out that is called Herbal Magic for Dummies. Um, so if you are new to You can say it if you're a dummy like Jess.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:54

I'm self-professed. It's okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:57

Well, I'm right there with you. Written by a dummy for dummies. Um, so it's a very practical approach to um herbal magic outside of any kind of spiritual context. So, sort of regardless of what your your spiritual background or your beliefs, um, I try to present it in a way that is is practical and approachable and something that that anybody can benefit from. Um, so that'll be out sometime in May. And then I think that's about it for the the foreseeable future, other than the Oracle deck, which comes in September.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:36

Yeah, that's a lot of fun things to look forward to. Can't wait. And how can people best find you and support your work or work with you?

SPEAKER_03 1:10:46

Um, you can find me on social media at Poisoners Apothecary. And you can also check out my website, which is thepoisonersapothecary.com. I do have a Patreon. Uh, you can check that out at patreon.com slash Poisoners Apothecary. Um, there's a few different tier options on there if you're wanting to dive a little bit more deeply into the poison path and occult herbalism.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:15

Thank you so much for chatting with us. This was so much fun to delve into your perspective on these things. And we just really appreciate you sharing this with our listeners.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:25

Yeah, my pleasure. Thank you guys for having me.

Closing Credits & Community CTA

SPEAKER_00 1:11:28

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SPEAKER_02 1:12:04

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SPEAKER_01 1:13:21

Music and editing by Dia Luna. Artwork by Lane Friend. Follow Immaterial World Pod on Instagram and Patreon at patreon.com backslash immaterial world. You can visit our website at www.immaterial-world.com or email us at Immaterial World Pod at gmail.com. Thank you for being part of our immaterial world.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:59

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