INTUITIVE RECLAMATION with Marcella Kroll

Marcella Kroll is an artist, psychic medium, occult practitioner, and spiritual counselor with 25+ years of professional experience rooted in ethical engagement with the unseen, cultural memory, and the reclamation of intuitive knowledge and personal empowerment. 

Her artwork is held in the permanent collections of the Rhode Island School of Design Museum and Beth DeWoody's Bunker Artspace, and she has presented at institutions including the Natural History Museum of Los Angeles, the Lucas Museum, the Philosophical Research Society, and the Los Angeles Public Library's long-running Tarot for Teens program. Her client list includes celebrity figures and brands such as Versace.

She is the author of Healing the Liminal, Priestess, and Magical Shielding (forthcoming 2027), coauthor of Tarot in Taschen's Library of Esoterica series, and the creator of the Sacred Symbols Oracle, Nature Nurture Oracle, The Dreamers Tarot, The Roast Iconic Oracle, and The Initiates Oracle (forthcoming 2026)

In this episode, Marcella shares how to find your "intuitive reclamation," neurodivergence in mediumship, her upcoming oracle deck release, and so much more. 

For more about Marcella, visit:

www.marcellakroll.com 

Instagram and TikTok: @marcellakroll

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Music and editing by DIA LUNA

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Artwork by Lane Friend 

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Transcript

Sponsor Offer And Welcome

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hey and Material World listeners, we know you're always doing the work, committed to your practices around personal exploration, curiosity, and spiritual wellness.

SPEAKER_01 0:11

We've partnered this season with Wiser Books, who work with so many creators and with titles across spirituality, relationships, mysticism, mindfulness, and more. Like Secrets of Romani fortune telling. You'll certainly find alignment with what's next for you in your journey.

SPEAKER_02 0:29

For those in the immaterial world, use code Immaterial30 at checkout on redwheelwiser.com linked in the show notes. That's Immaterial30 for 30% off your purchase through the end of March. Happy exploring.

Meet Marcella Kroll’s Work

SPEAKER_01 0:57

A dedicated and transparent space to recenter how we explore glamour, magic, culture, and everything else we love together. Well, this episode we got to talk to a tarot and oracle legend. Marcella Kroll is an artist, psychic medium, occult practitioner, and spiritual counselor with 25 plus years of professional experience rooted in ethical engagement with the unseen, cultural memory, and the reclamation of intuitive knowledge and personal empowerment. Her work is held in the permanent collections of the Rhode Island School of Design Museum and Beth DeWooty's Bunker Art Space. And she has presented at institutions including the Natural History Museum of Los Angeles, the Lucas Museum, and the Philosophical Research Society, and the Los Angeles Public Library's long-running Tarot for Teens program. Her client list includes celebrity figures and brands such as Versace. She is the author of Healing the Liminal, Priestess and Magical Shielding, forthcoming 2027, co-author of Tarot and Tassions The Library of Esoterica series, and the creator of the Sacred Symbols Oracle, Nature Nurture Oracle, The Dreamer's Tarot, The Roast Iconic Oracle, and The Initiates Oracle, forthcoming in 2026.

SPEAKER_02 3:07

So I was reading an interview with our guest today and just loved this quote from her talking about her approach to client work. We're going to explore a lot in our conversation, but especially the last sentences feel really resonant. So she said, for potential clients, followers, and fans, I want you to know that my work is driven by a sincere desire to make a positive difference in your life. Whether you're seeking guidance through divination tools, looking to enhance your spiritual practice, or wanting to explore your own creativity, I am here to support and inspire you. My brand is built on a foundation of authenticity, creativity, and spiritual insight. And I am dedicated to helping you connect with your own inner power and potential. But be forewarned. I am not for you if you don't want to do the work or take accountability. It sometimes can feel uncomfortable to do this kind of soul searching. And I do not promise it will be cushy, but it will be worth it. And as a fellow Pisces, this felt really good to me as we're seeing Neptune and Saturn moving into Aries. So I just loved that sentiment. It also felt very immaterial, world-coded. So without further ado, uh, Marcella Kroll, you're so incredible. We are thrilled and so honored to have you here today.

SPEAKER_00 4:29

Oh, thank you so much. I'm really, really glad to be here with you both and just um project this podcast, what you're offering, the community, and you know, just the space that you're creating. So thank you for having me.

Near-Death, Tarot, And Survival

SPEAKER_01 4:42

Oh, thank you. We always love to start with the biggest question there is. Tell us about your personal journey that let us hear.

SPEAKER_00 4:51

Uh, it's a like the short version, the long version. There's a lot. Um, you know, I feel like people have probably heard me talk at nauseum about, you know, near-death experiences, including like at six months old. Um, but I will say that a strong curiosity and connection to the invisible has always been the thing that's led me down the path to every place I've been to, including to where I am today. Um when I was little, like I was very in tune, very sensitive, and then you shut it down. Um so many different wild experiences that you know, I guess the short version would be, you know, I was gifted some tarot cards when I was 14 by my adopted dad's mother. I'd always been interested, this is gonna age me. When I was really like little on TV, they used to do these ads for the Mysteries of the Unknown book series, and I was like obsessed. And I beg and beg and beg and beg and beg to like have access to those, and you know, was always seeking out not even like religion, but just a spiritual connection. I would like wander to different churches, like in the neighborhood, and you know, just smell the incense and always just again had invisible friends, you know, that I would talk to. And I really got kind of acquainted with more of like the occult and things when I was um 13. I ran away. My mom's friend at the time gave me like uh the Dion Fortune psychic self-defense book. Um uh I didn't know what it was, you know, it didn't make sense to me at the time. And like I said, 14, I got gifted an Egyptian tarot because they knew I was like obsessed with Egypt, but I didn't really like understand how to work with it. Um, it wasn't until I was you know 18, near-death experience, that I got really into astrology and tarot, but not like to help people, it was more to go, what's wrong with me? Why am I like this? And I lived, I grew up in Rhode Island, I lived in New York, I lived in LA for 18 years. You know, I would do readings here and there just by word of mouth. But then in LA in 2008, I started doing readings um because I had no income. I got fired from my fashion job for being the wrong vibe because I tattooed my neck.

SPEAKER_02 7:30

It was kind of like Oh, we could get into a whole city conversation about that.

SPEAKER_00 7:34

I mean, I worked I worked like on and off in the fashion world in different capacities. Like that's the thing a lot of people don't realize. Like, I I had a career, you know, like not even it wasn't even a career. It was like I just I was an artist, I've always been an artist, and I lived and worked at an arts um nonprofit in Providence, Rhode Island, and then I office mandated for a fashion designer. And then I, you know, herded models um at fashion week for her, actually in September 10th, uh, you know, 2001, you know, one. So let me tell you, I, you know, that's September 11th. I was on a bus back because I had this psychic like wake up and I was like, I gotta go back. I don't know why, you know, it's just like there was always things happening. But when I moved to LA, I worked a couple of jobs, you know. I had worked for a showroom, I got fired, like I said, and I needed to eat. So I started doing readings. Um, and then in 2009, I went full-time doing readings, and everyone was like, You're crazy. I was filing bankruptcy. You know, I was like, I need this is the only thing I know how to do. Um, I had only recently had gotten my GD at that point. Like, it was a lot, and you know, everything came as a curiosity. Even my first deck, I was having like visions. I ran away to New Mexico for a little while in 2012. I kept seeing myself there. And I know in a little notebook, I have little sketches, and you know, there's just been it's always been this like burning curiosity and creative expression. And then over, you know, I would say since 2012-2013 was how I was able to bridge my art and the psychic work, like through deck creation or um just storytelling and expression. So it's just been a lot. There's just been a lot. I was houseless. I, you know, I was saying to myself, like, I want to stop telling some of these stories, but I do think they're important. I was houseless three times in LA. But I was reminded by a friend actually this past week, um, a circus friend of mine who has like known me the longest, and they just said, you know, you have you didn't do things out of like stupidity or like making weird decisions. You made sacrifices and you did things because you had standards. You you chose to sacrifice certain things because you uh didn't believe the things that people told you about you. And uh I thought that was pretty like that reminded me of like, okay, like you you've been through some stuff. So it's been a long road, you know, through it all. But I'm you know, sober almost 10 years now. That was like another learning curve of being a sensitive Pisces, overstimulated, autistic, late diagnosed adult, which you know, all the things like just like living on the threshold. I you know, we were saying about uh Neptune and Pisces. I'm my son is 29 degrees Pisces, so it's like wow, yeah. I always say I'm so I'm I'm such a Pisces, I was like almost late, like to being a Pisces, but like you know, like the so late I missed Aries by three hours. Like it's it's one of those liminals again, living at a threshold and having near-death experiences. I think you become this person that's constantly in between. So yeah, it's kind of my short version of the story.

SPEAKER_02 11:17

It's so beautiful. There's a lot to unpack already from what you first said, but I want to get back to the fashion thing just for a second. Because when Jasmina and I were talking about the the the beginnings of immaterial world, one of the things that we were coming to was this convergence of my work in fashion, their work in divination, and why these worlds keep coming together and why the people in each of those worlds are interested in the other world. And, you know, I I laugh when you're talking about, you know, you weren't the right vibe for it, this fashion company, whatever it was. Um, I often laugh because my work has been in trend forecasting, which is sort of on the fringes of what's happening, right? You're sort of like the high priestess, you're living in like a different way, you're thinking about things a different way and coming in and speaking to the work that's going to be created. And so it's interesting to me to hear other people that have been in this world and that are also in spirituality. And I'm just curious why you think these two often come together in in the ways that they do.

SPEAKER_00 12:22

I mean, uh, aside from like the business aspect, I think there's an intuitive, expressive, creative thread that at the root of it all, and we're we're we're drawing on um expression. And I think if you're like not looking at the business side, I'm just talking about the inspiration and the expression. It's there's liminal space in there as well. Like I got into fashion and stuff, like people were always like, well, I was always creative and I loved expressing myself. I mean, I'm I I I used to dress really wild, like you know, more expressive, especially when I was younger. It was a way for me to act out or heal or liberate or be someone else. And and then I worked in vintage for years. Um, I managed like a vintage shop in my younger years, and then I actually was a buyer at Beacon's Closet years ago in Williamsburg. Um yeah, like, and then but I'd always been and I had been connected, like I said, the person that I worked with that I managed, um, they're from Providence originally, but their PR people were in New York, and then they but they're an artist and they're sculptural and then they're making fashion. It was just everything was intertwined, right? And for me, my whole existence is about freedom of even in the most um intense conditions or like restrictive conditions, being able to be free and express yourself, um, particularly, you know, as I got to know more about my ancestry and things like that, which I didn't find out till much, you know, a lot of stuff till much later because I didn't know my biological father. There was all these ways I was trying to express myself. And I think fashion was the route. Fashion, art, music, it was all connected. And it allowed you to play with this very intuitive way of being here. So I I don't know why they're all connected, but it feels like it makes sense to me that it's just another form of channeling, you know, um, which I love, you know, I think that's a really powerful thing. And then also if we look at magic and talismans and protection and tools, like all everything, whether it's tattooing, clothing, accessory, it's all an extension of this psychic, you know, play. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:53

Yeah. And I feel even when you're talking about identity and curiosity, right? It starts in this outward way of I express myself by wearing these things. And then I add the talismans. And then, you know, I'm looking at my astrological chart. Wow, that really explains this thing about me or this challenge that I've never been able to move through. And I've seen it in my life in so many different ways. And that that does feel so resonant and and why these things keep colliding for us.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

Absolutely. I just think it's the like, you know, like the business end of it is the business end of it, but that doesn't change the like the foundational aspect of it, you know. It it's all related and intertwinable. And it's funny to me to be like, I worked in these like different, I don't know, I guess, roles within that world, and then finding myself on the other end of like doing now as an adult, like readings or educating. Like I did like the Versace show a couple of years ago. Like they had me do an oracle class for the reporters who were coming. It was the most bizarre thing, but I did it some more months for like, but like everyone's just you know, everyone's curious about the magic, like and the connection. Like it has it's uh we're we're more into things than we think, even though there's that commercial end or business end of things that kind of suck the fun out of it sometimes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's a trip, all of it, really. But I think of course they've all they're all even that fashion world feels mutable, right? Completely. So I I think for sure.

Creativity As Alchemy In Hard Times

SPEAKER_01 16:36

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, uh, you're such an interesting artist in so many different ways. I mean, the way that you show up creatively, and I've I've always felt like creativity and spirituality are you know happy bedfellows. They so much overlap, and um so we can we can relate to this path in our own way, but we've talked to each other and guests about the subject of art and creativity, and we would love to ask you why is art in whatever form it takes for you or for the listeners more important than ever at this moment? Why is it so critical for creatives and non-creatives to find means of self-expression right now?

SPEAKER_00 17:19

I mean, I want to say, first of all, I think even if people consider themselves, they don't consider themselves creative, I think they are. They just don't know that that's what they're doing. Creativity is such a spectrum, right? And I I just like I always tell people, like I go through this exercise a lot of times with like clients or when I'm doing like teaching or doing a meditation, be like, oh, I'm not visual, I'm not creative. And I go, come back to basics, right? Like visualize, can you can you can you picture your bathroom right now? They're like, Yeah. I'm like, okay, can you see the sink? They're like, yeah. I'm like, okay, you can be visual. Like it's not, yeah, I just I think people's conceptions of what that means, um, they shut it down. And it's like, especially, I see it a lot with adults, they shut it down, like, oh, it's not a masterpiece, it's not perfect. It's never going, like, it's not supposed to be. We need our curiosity again. We need to remember to be beginners, beginner spirit, and find the enthusiasm again. And creativity, especially when everything around you is like looking bland, like architecture, when people are all looking into the same, wearing the same thing, like and we're all funneling our our energy and our expression online, right? Which is happens and has happened, we become susceptible to losing like that freedom of the mind within or our ability to come up with like improv improvisational ideas or things like that. And we need joy and we need spark and we need to remember why we're here in the first place. I think like I'm not here to like, I don't know, live in a like the a beige kind of like min- I mean, I I I like appreciate minimalism, but I also appreciate contrast and variety. And I think that when you're living under circumstances where you forget your freedoms when you have it, or you have the privilege to have certain freedoms, you run the risk of losing it and losing your joy. And you see people get depressed or upset. I mean, a lot of creative practice is moving and transmuting emotion and feeling. And what happens when we forget how to do that, when we forgot to exercise that muscle, right? We become stagnant or stuck, or like I said, we get depressed, we lose our our will to keep showing up, and you know, especially with everything in this world that is going on, right? Um and it's wild to me because it's even the people who say they're like allies or they're this or that, and then they'll be the first to comment, like, oh, that's a interesting shirt you're wearing. That's an interesting color. Ooh, that's loud. And you're like, it's just different than what you would do or what you're too afraid to do. But like it's I I didn't we can't forget like why we wake up every day, you know, to not just be a cog in the machine. And I I know that I'm I'm pretty fortunate with certain things, particularly with my creative connection. But I think growing up, I grew up in a pretty hostile, like violent environment. Um, when I was little, especially. So my imagination and my creativity, that was the only thing that no one could take from me. You could take everything else because everything else was taken, right? That was the thing that lived like with me all times, and that's gonna be the last damn thing that anyone takes from me. And I think we all have that ability to access it. It just might feel quiet and we have to cultivate it like anything, you know, it's not easy, it's not gonna just come because we will it to. Like I think we've come to a place where we, you know, call like Amazon Prime everything, like in our culture, right? And even down to like our, you know, it and then what happens? We forget how to use our tools, we forget how to access the beauty. And also, again, it's such transmutation magic to take something, whether it's pain. Pain, whether it's you know, ugly, whether it's rough, and and turn it into something else. That's magic. That's alchemy. You know, and it's important to know how to be an alchemist in weird times. And even if you can't do it, look to the people who are doing it, um, you know, for inspiration or for holding space or for just like to keep your morale going.

SPEAKER_02 22:29

I I love this, and I think, you know, for all of the reasons that you're talking about, creativity is so important. And I think that even I'm guilty at times of saying, well, I'm not going to be good at that, right? And sometimes that can become the first hurdle that I put in my own head. I specifically think with astrology, when I was first exploring, I always thought, you know, I'll never be good at that. I'm not good at math. I'm I've never been able to do geometry or and instead of going through the lens of, well, maybe I don't need to do astrology in the way that everyone else does it. Maybe I don't need to make these grand, you know, sort of sweeping divinations around what could happen. Maybe I want my astrology practice to be more about what's happening in someone's chart. And I started to feel it in a way that I, and so that became for me like that, I could get around that hindrance that I had of being so goals-oriented and task-oriented and how I was approaching something so beautiful and creative. So, because you work with astrology, you work with tarot, you work with Oracle. Can you tell us a little bit about how these interplay in your life, how you see them, how you feel them, and how you're working with your own creative skills and intuitive skills in these areas?

Finding Your Way Into Divination

SPEAKER_00 23:40

Yeah, absolutely. And that's beautiful. And I love what you just said about that because that's exactly the first thing I tell people when they're like, what do I focus on? How do I get into it? I go, what do you, what are you excited about? What are you nosy about?

SPEAKER_02 23:55

Like the nosy, the nosy for me is the number one because then someone will send me their chart and I'll go, oh, and like some like some signature will immediately speak to me. And I understand that person in a different way. And that's where I like I know that's my in, right? And and I'm never gonna be someone that's kind of talking about Saturn has moved into Aries, and this is what it means for the collective. That's not really my vibe with astrology, but mine is like, this is what is gonna be happening for you, and we're gonna talk about it. And this might be a challenge, this might be an opportunity. How is it going? And that's where I felt like, okay, phew, that's my that's my vibe, right?

SPEAKER_00 24:32

That's exactly how you should, and that's how we learn and that's how we grow, is because you just need one breadcrumb to pull you in, and then you can explore. And then, like I tell people all the time, like, people make the assumption, like, oh, I'm a tarot reader. The first thing they say to me, like strangers, they're like, read my palm. I'm like, I don't read palms, you know, like they just assume you're gonna know everything about everything. I was like, I don't know everything about everything because I don't, I don't vibe with everything. It's not bad, it's not wrong, right? It's just like my brain doesn't go there. But like the same thing with astrology, like, I'll tell people all the time, I'm not an astrologer, but you show me visually your chart, I can nerd out and tell you a story about your lore based on that. But ask me what aspects and conjunction, I don't know. I have no idea. I've just like visually can like you know, nerd out on this thing, but I always say like I'm always learning. And when it comes to even all those modalities of everything um and how they work, honestly, like it's I have a lot of Aries in my chart and I hate it, but I will say it's the thing that makes me curious and not scared enough to just take a leap and look.

SPEAKER_02 25:54

Oh I I love this as a Pisces sun and Aries rising. Those two things do not want to go together. But it like forces you out of the house, it like forces you to like go do the thing.

SPEAKER_00 26:07

Yeah, exactly. I have an Aries moon, and I'm like, people are like, oh my god, how did you do that? I'm like, I did it before I knew I was scared. My body just pulled me there. My emotions pulled me there, and then I got there and I'm like, my knees are shaking. What am I doing? But okay, we're here. But it's like that with everything, like curiosity and like the the I can't not know. Like, and even if I fail, like I would rather just know I did it and I failed gloriously, or I did it and I accidentally loved it, you know. Who? So when I am like in terms of like professionally, right? Because I've taken actually, I've been doing readings professionally full-time since 2009. This year I decided to stop one-on-ones so I can focus more on holding bigger containers and stuff like that. And also the one-on-ones was driving me crazy. It's not the best use of my energy right now. There's so many one-on-one readers, like let them do it. Like, I am better equipped to hold like containers, and I can do that when I'm looking. Like, I look at astrology like the weather. I will periodically just like I will check into it. I don't look at every single thing. I don't have the bandwidth. I'm also like in men, I'm going through menopause. Nobody talks about that. Like, I'm in my Chiron return. My brain is a sieve. Okay, like there are things that like I really just like. I'm looking at the current moment. I love cards, they're my first love. Um, even though like astrology was the gateway for me. Um, and like I said, I will gladly like I don't offer astrology readings, but like I'll look at friends, you know, like transits, like what's going on. But honestly, it's only if I like am interested. I know it sounds it's it's helpful, but it's not how I like I'm not, I don't live by it day to day. And I also make fun of like certain things because I'm like, uh, everyone going through their Saturn return right now. You're so lucky you have tools. I thought I was dying every day, living in New York. I moved there on for my Saturn return, like not even knowing, like, oh, like this is a great idea. Me too. I did too.

unknown 28:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:32

Every day is like, what fresh hell is this? You know, yeah. And then, you know, like there's just I feel like they all weave together a beautiful configuration, and I use them personally just to try to live a better day to day. And then when it comes to professionally, I absolutely use cards, I absolutely touch in with magic. Um, but these are all things I also use, like it's not just professionals, I use them personally. Like this is uh a way of living for me. Like it's not just something I do like during certain hours or on the weekend. Like I trust me, my partner is like, why are you up at three in the morning putting on a simmer pot and doing this weird stuff around the house? And I'm like, because I'm feeling something, you know, and like it's not um, I I just I feel like it's so much intertwined with my life that I don't even know how to break it down, like in that way. It's just, but it's it's been so much a part of my life, I would say solidly since 18, around then, around then, around 17, 18. You know, you forget.

How Sacred Symbols Was Made

SPEAKER_01 29:46

It's like yeah, it just becomes a way of moving through the world. Actually, I wanted to take a minute. So Sacred Symbols is one of my favorite Oracle decks. Like the Living Altar, Sacred Symbols, they are my go-to's. And um, I would love to hear a little bit about like how did you make it? What happened? How did it come to you? It's so it's so helpful. I really enjoy it.

SPEAKER_00 30:10

That deck is that deck changed my life. And I will say, like I said, in 2012, I ran away to New Mexico. I was having visions, right? I got I left LA and I was like, I'm going to New Mexico. I ended up living on a Pueblo in Powakee, New Mexico, on 18 acres of land. I had Buffalo neighbor. I was losing my mind. I was having a mental health crisis, right? And like completely like spiritual psychic blowout, but I didn't know what that was. And I had a little notebook and I was, I have the notebook still, chicken scratches, right, of like uh words and sketches. So the first iteration of Sacred Symbols, I edited on my iPhone 3, and I took pictures of the little paintings, and then I and then I edited them in an app on my iPhone 3, and I was like, uh, I don't know if I'll ever make these. And then I had a client, oh, so I ended up moving back to LA because I had my first winter in Powaky, and I was like, I'm gonna die here. I gotta get out. I like, I like fled back to LA. And um anyway, yeah, I made the first edition. I think I printed a hundred of them, and they were in like a paper thin box. The I think the one you have that might be, is that the one that's printed? Like it's um, it was it was uh Union Square, or is it Sterling Ethos New York? Yeah, so that's the fourth edition. Yeah, so the first edition was like in a paper thin box, like uh, you know, I self-published, I thought I was gonna just sit on those forever. I was like, well, I guess I'll have Christmas presents for people forever. Um, and then they sold. And then I did the second edition, which ended up being a top-bottom box, and I did three additional drawing paintings for them, self-published again, and went through this route of like people were like, uh, really, like you're gonna do that. Same way people told me, uh, really, you're gonna go do readings for a living. And I just was like, I don't know, something is telling me to just do this until they don't want to be done anymore. So then, you know, things shift, things change, you grow, you learn. Um, I had also come to this place where the first and second edition, there was some definitely some symbols or things in there that I felt like, I think those are appropriative. I also don't have enough information about them that I feel confident sharing because I wanted it to be like an educational tool. So I redrew everything by hand. And even though that's the other thing, people like, your drawings are so simple. I'm like, these aren't done on a computer. I do it with like a ballpoint pen, you know? Like, also, what I would do is I would get um a pressing done and I would anoint every single deck um in my studio apartment back in LA um with like this is an archangel oil from the sword in the rose. I don't know if you know that place, but it's been there forever. And um, David Randy, Randy David, who however you would know him, him and his partner have this little teeny shop and they make like these beautiful um incense and oils. And I remember he grabbed me. He was very he only did one reading a day. He has now passed, but he um he grabbed me by the arm and I had I was visiting and and he was like, You need to make this deck, and here you need to anoint them. And I would just be like, Okay, this deck is gonna go to whoever it's going to go to to help them in their personal or professional practice or whoever needs it. And yeah, and then I redrew everything and I changed some of the symbols, and then by the time the fourth edition happened, I was offered to have it pro picked up by the publisher, and I had been planning on doing a fourth edition anyway because I removed one of the symbols and replaced it. And I was gonna do it with or without it being published because let me tell you, I offered this to public, I tried to go to publishers so many times I was told no, no, no. We didn't no, no. And it's funny, after it got picked up, then I got approached by people, oh, did you ever approach us? I'm like, uh-huh, you told me no. Everyone said it's to this, it's to that. There was a lot of opinions, and I have to say, I was just talking to a friend this morning about this and being a creative person, um, and I had shared it in my stories about keep writing, keep creating. A thousand people are gonna tell you no. But if your heart is like, I have to do this, there's something bigger at play here. So yeah, I mean, that's kind of like, and now there's over 20,000 of them in the world. And I hear from all walks of life, I hear from people who are seasoned readers to um I've had nurses who've used them with their patients, I've had like children that are like people send me pictures of their animals like sitting with them, or like their little kids picking them, or their elderly parents or grandparents. And I think that to me, when I see people feel those things like click on, and it's why I love teaching um in the same way that I like offering tools that unlock your vision, not my vision. I wanted to unlock your vision. You know, that's why I do what I do.

SPEAKER_01 35:59

Oh, thank you so much for sharing that journey. I had no idea that it had a history like that, and also um, I have definitely let my dog Lily pick out um Oracle cards. She boops them with her nose, and it's really great.

SPEAKER_04 36:13

I love that. I love that so much.

SPEAKER_00 36:15

Yeah. It's it's like that to me alone is like, okay, this is why I do what I do, right? I'm like, oh, someone doesn't like them too bad. Like it doesn't matter. Like it's not me, it's not for them. That's why there's so many things out there, and people get so upset about their work not being liked or people not liking them. Like, I, you know, I used to get very upset and feel very hurt and so rejected, but that was my own crap that I needed to work through. Yeah. Right. You don't do it for other, like, I don't know. It's like you do it for other people, but you don't do it for other people. You you do it for the the bigger picture is like, did I come here and do a good job? Am I being a good, am I going to be a good ancestor? You know, like what am I leaving behind? And that's why it was also important to update that deck with new knowledge and new tools. Like, we as humans evolve, our tools should evolve too, right? Because some people like, oh, you should just leave it. What does that say about me as a person, as an example, if I can't be evolving who I am and my practice based on new knowledge?

Reclaiming Intuition Without Permission

SPEAKER_02 37:33

This is this is so true. And I feel like when you are an intuitive person, the amount of runway that you get on something, and it's funny, right? Like I'll always say, you know, using divination in the fashion work that I've done, I will be so far ahead. And sometimes I don't know that my timeline is too long. Sometimes I'm right on time. The thing will happen. I just don't really always know the timing. And even thinking again about the birth of immaterial world, the story is quite funny. Like, you know, I had met Jasmina as a reader, and I was saying, you know, this is the thing that I want to do, which I can't say the exact phrase. And they were like, yep, but on the other side, and Jess, I'm just gonna say it. But Jess was like, oh, I'm gonna do it with Jessica, but she needs to get there in her own time too. So it's just so funny when you have that piece, right? You just you have to keep going when you know it's the right thing to do.

SPEAKER_00 38:27

Absolutely. And you're gonna have people plant little seeds of doubt, but I I think, and it's like with anything, you have to really get very clear in your own knowing. And even if you don't have the answers, you and you can't explain it. That's the thing, people get really addicted to explaining um or like making it digestible. I think you just I think you just need to get comfortable with going, you know what, I don't know. And then go do your thing and and like let them find out after. Um during COVID, during lockdown, I like I made two projects and I didn't tell anyone. And that so then it was like kind of like a surprise. And I I did it intentionally because even though these were people that were around me that like were my friends or I loved, I knew their immediate reaction if I told them what I was doing would be like, Why are you doing that? Or what is that? And then solely based on I remember this was just an example, especially in if if this resonates with anyone. I remember um in I think it was like in February or end of January, beginning of February in 2022, I was so like I felt so like sad and overwhelmed, but like a cloud and I didn't know why. And I had a friend who was like, Oh, you're just like you're just like depressed because no one's paying attention to you now that your book is out. Cause I had um Priestess, my like illustrated grandma, came out in October of 2019, and I did a tour and all this stuff, and they were just like, You're just like you know, bummed, like you're you know, you're you put this thing out, you're having like this postpartum, and nobody's paying attention to you right now, so that's why you're sad, which was really rude, right? And but also I was like, maybe, and I was like, no, there's something else, and I couldn't place my finger on it, and then you know, March comes, right? And I was like, that's what it was, but like I didn't know. I just I was like, it would be cool sometimes if these feelings would come with like I don't know, a breakdown, but they don't, they're cryptic. Anyway, I intentionally did not tell this person and a couple other people I was working on this stuff because I knew if I said anything that it would just it would kill the dream, it would burst the bubble, right? So then of course, after wait, you made these things. This is incredible. Why didn't you say anything? Because I had made the dreamer's tarot during that time and I wrote a kid's book, right? And I was like, Because you're not gonna believe and the same person was like, Oh my gosh, now I remember when you were so sad, it was because of this. And I'm like, Yeah, and you poo-pooed on my sadness, like so. I just I just want to say, like, sometimes you don't know why you're drawn or you feel pushed or compelled. Stay curious to it, you know, you don't have to like everything we are focused on comes back to like our own experiences, and you also have to remember that for most people who are giving you feedback, they're just basing it on their own capacity or experience.

SPEAKER_01 41:48

That's such good advice. I often uh encourage um clients and friends to just think carefully about who they want to share things with because not everyone knows how to receive your creativity or your nascent ideas or your vibes. And um, yeah, and like you said, it's often because of their own stuff, not because they don't care about you, but they just might not know how to hold it. And it's always so fortunate when we have the people around us who know how to hold our baby bird intuitions and ideas and be like, yeah, go do it.

SPEAKER_00 42:22

But yeah, you have to be selective. Yes, exactly. It's selective, and it doesn't mean like like what you were saying, it doesn't mean they don't care about you. It just it's just sometimes not everybody knows how to like keep that place protected, you know, in the same way.

SPEAKER_01 42:41

So yeah, and you use the phrase intuitive reclamation in your work, which you know, moving from the the baby bird phase to like what does it mean to return and and reclaim? What does intuitive reclamation mean to you and how does it shape your own work with yourself but also with other people?

SPEAKER_00 43:01

I think it solely because well not solely, but I would say there's a lot of people that don't know that they can access things within themselves or their own connection. They're waiting for other people to give them permission. Um and I just like and again, like I'm I'm a big proponent of like don't do as I say, but like let me hold the space while you go do that thing. Like when you or you know, you rediscover this that you've had access all along to your own inner knowing. Because of modern society, because of what we're told, because of all the things that everyone's always, you know, upset about, right? Like we forget that you you have direct access to, you know, and the thing is, everyone's journey, some people, it's gonna feel really Easy to jump back in. And then some people are going to need baby steps or they're going to need support. They're going to need witnesses. They're going to need, you know, someone to say, like, hey, here's how I did it. Maybe part of this will work for you, but maybe part of this will, you know, help you feel more confident in your own creative, like, way of tuning in. So I just like being able to be the person to champion kind of like this helping someone f regain like a sense of connection to themselves is one of the most like beautiful things to witness. And I don't know, I just think everyone should have access to this part of themselves. So yeah, I mean, I guess that's a big part of it. Whether it's, you know, calling your power back, whether it's, oh my gosh, I intuitively listened to myself for the first time and I trusted it. I may have shamed myself a little bit, but I trusted it. Like a win is a win. Like, let's keep going. Let's, you know. Um, so I think with an intuitive reclamation isn't just about psychic stuff, it's about like listening and following that inner wisdom, whether it's connected to your creativity or your day-to-day or your relationships or your connection to community. It's all of those things. And I think because as someone who didn't have access to half of their story growing up, because like I said, it was volatile. I was adopted by my stepdad at a young age, but I didn't know my father. I didn't have access to those, like, and even on my mom's side, like the spiritual stuff was like a secret. It was like they were trying to assimilate. And then my biodad side having like a really complex history, particularly with this country, and me being able to reclaim parts of myself that I always felt even in this own body, feeling connected to a body that I didn't feel connected to. Like, I don't know if that's you know, I like it's hard for me to even feel connected to being human sometimes. So everything has been about reclamation in this particular life or doing things that my ancestors couldn't do, you know, like whether like everything has been about like, well, I get to do it now. And I get to do it, and even even like the way I present myself, like they could not do it. They would have been persecuted, they would have been in trouble, they would have lost jobs, they would have lost this. I everything is like an act of not just like healing the family line, going back, but it's like, no, no, no, we get to go forward too.

SPEAKER_02 46:53

I I love this, and I think intuitive reclamation also means cultivating self-trust. And through that self-trust, the safety that other people don't get to experience. Because if you feel disconnected from your intuition, you'll never feel anchored and safe. And that, you know, maybe that makes you feel a little bit more human to be anchored in that way to the safety.

SPEAKER_00 47:15

Well, it's nothing is ours, right? Like, I mean, ultimately we have our life, but even that's not ours after a certain point, right? So, again, as someone who's had everything taken away from them at some point, whether, you know, like, and we'll all experience something of that nature to a degree. Like, why not re why not call this back in? Why not reclaim this? And again, I I have to make this enjoy life enjoyable and livable because it's really hard, you know? It's really hard. I mean, from a very young age, I was always pretty. My mother would say, like, very Wednesday Adams, very dark, very dismal, very like morbid. She'd be like, You're so morbid. But like to be, I think a lot of that, like, there's other things we can embrace and take in and make the ride enjoyable, especially if we're fortunate enough to be able to do that.

Neurodivergence, Mediumship, And Self-Trust

SPEAKER_01 48:24

Yeah, that's profound. Um speaking of making things enjoyable and figuring out how to navigate the ride. Um, both Jess and I like privately talk a lot about our neurodivergence and psychism and um when one is at play or the other or both, and how they mix or don't mix sometimes. And um, there's so much stigma about both of these topics separately and together. And we always love to give listeners an opportunity to understand better or maybe see themselves represented. And so, you know, the two of us have our own experiences with mental health, neurodivergence, psychism, and all the enhancements and complications. And um, you know, we're always happy to talk about our experiences, but we would love to get your take on the relationship between neurodivergence and mediumship as much as you feel there is one, um, and as much as you'd like to share.

SPEAKER_00 49:21

Thank you. Um, I mean, it's a it's kind of a wild ride, right? I was late diagnosed at 42. I'll be 49 soon. And for years I was always told there was something wrong, but it was symptomatic. Like I think about like, you know, you get misdiagnosed, right? So you you have all these identities around what you what accommodations you need or don't need. And I also was in complete denial of being like a medium really long time, like decades. I'd just be like, I don't know, I don't know, I just know stuff. Um and always had anxiety. And then what happens is you start to have all these other things. So I will say, finding out um I was autistic, right? That happened also uh a year after being sober, or no, almost two years after being because I got sober at 39. Um but it was one of those things where the my autistic tendencies are to be like, like I know one of the things for me is I always say I my immediate answer to everything is no, like, and it's not because I really mean no, but this is where I have to like my intuition is like, yes, and my autism is no, we're not doing that, you're not going that way. But I have to like almost go like step aside, wait a minute, what is my body and my everything feeling? See, you know, like it's just like having to relearn like this is why it's so important, right? To to get clear about like your own intuitive practice and reclamation and those tools that support you so you can hear the solid yes and no and know the difference between like okay, is that my my autistic brain trying to protect me from being overstimulated? You know, like learning that, like what is factual and what is helpful versus you know, because that's that's very real. Like I could go do an event and get overstimulated, right? But it's not like a solid no, it's just like, wait, it's a no with a caution. Can you do this? Can you know your limits? Um, and I do think on some level, because I have like wild pattern recognition stuff, that it does help me. It helped, I mean, it definitely helped me learn with tarot and reading because of the symbolism. But I don't think it's connected to my psychic gifts. I don't know. Like they they work together, they're like a team, they're like partners, and you know, they help in so many it it so there's definitely like this overlapping. It doesn't help sometimes with um, like I think some people also have this misconception that if you are an intuitive spiritual person, you're supposed to be like all loving, all-encompassing, and you know, and then my neurodivergent brain is like just maybe I don't know, so you're like rude or direct or harsh or curt or whatever. And I'm like, I'm just being clear, like, you know, there isn't a flowery thing about me, right? But like, I don't know, I just I think that it's different for everybody. That's the one beautiful and thing, true thing I can say about it all, is that it's different for everybody, and everyone's experience is going to be reflected differently in their approach. My personal experience is has it affected me and impacted me in ways where I wish it didn't? Yes, right. Has it, but has it impacted me in ways where it's been an extreme asset or helpful and made me good at my work? Yes. And then, you know, there are other things that it's all a soup, right? I could also blame my chart. Like, you know, I have uh my rising opposing my Saturn, right? So I have a Saturn opposition, right? They are directly opposing each other. That's not a good combo for you know, just regular old conversation. It's great for teaching. Um, but do I trigger people's authority issues? Yes. And then to have the like the the you know, sometimes the abruptness of like, I'm thinking things are happening so fast, and maybe it's not formulated in a way that people would appreciate. And now I'm just like rambling because I'm like it over overstimulated, overwhelmed. I think it's all related, but it also is very different for each person.

SPEAKER_01 54:13

Yeah, I totally agree. It's and it's there's so many different lenses that you can look at it through. Like sometimes I'm like, is it ADHD or is it Gemini Rising? We don't know. And I think that's a fun thing about having a lot of different tools to explore self, you know, like and it we don't have to have answers for all the things, but I can so relate to what you're saying about has it hindered me? Yes, has it helped me? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 54:41

Like, what day is it? It's also like, was I sober? Was I not sober? I mean, everything impacts everything, like, you know, and I think like, you know, if you met me before I got sober, I think one of the things like I used to have a podcast. I had my own podcast for 10 years, saved by the spell. And the first, like, um, when did I start it? 2015. I think I started it in 2015. Yeah, I started it in 2015 because then I ended it in 2025. But like the first year of the podcast or a year and a half, I wasn't sober. Is a completely different person, you know, as you move into the later years of it. And some people like, I loved it in the beginning, I hated it towards the end, or oh, it was a little intense in the beginning, I liked it towards the end. I'm like, because there was like eight versions of me getting sober through that podcast and then also discovering my neurodiversity and finding my biological father and finding all this cultural stuff that had no like identity crisis, you know. So, like you're, I think we should just, you know, there's this aspect of everyone's learning who they are all the time. And if you are just, I think in the past it was safe to say we could say a person was a person, that's how they were for the time. But the last 10, 15, 20 years, people are evolving and changing and consciously working on their own healing or finding tools and finding grace that like they're absolutely not the same person. You might have known someone, but you don't know them now. Right. Um, and isn't that the point of why we're so connected to all of this stuff anyway? Is because we're trying to revolutionize our life and evolve and figure it out. Yeah, I don't know. That was just kind of a weird side quest I just went on.

SPEAKER_02 56:41

So no, I I love that. And I it takes me back to something that you were saying before about the late diagnosis. And as frustrating as that can be, you know, I Saturn and Pisces will go down as like one of the most important transits in me changing fundamentally who I was. And during that time, it opened up all of these opportunities for me to get into my intuitive abilities, into my psychic abilities. But at the same time, I was going to be diagnosed with obsessive compulsive disorder. And I was going to have to be forced to look at, you know, what is the what am I really downloading? What does that feel like in my body versus when I'm being a Gemini moon and I'm opening up a lot of tabs at once, which is great. Like part of my gift is that I can like have, I like to call it like tabs open and I can see them all at the same time. And then sometimes it's just obsessive-compulsive disorder. And I'm like stuck in a in a compulsion that I can't get myself out of. And that time period for me was so enlightening. I don't think I was meant to be diagnosed before. It was going to be part of that journey of get to know what it feels like in your body, get to know what it feels like to have that self-trust. And like you said, it's like I'm not the same person I was five years ago because I had to learn all of these things later and look at life a completely different way. So it's a side quest, but I think that's like the beauty of having neurodivergences. We're kind of like on a side quest all the time. Um, and I think that it also plays, mine also plays with my intuitive gifts a little bit because I'll get into like a seven of cups. Like I will pull only the seven of cups when I'm going through a little spell of something. And it's like, this isn't actually real. This is just made up in your head. So I love this. I think that this is so important for people to realize how complex they are and that all of these things are living together for a reason for us to have that curiosity.

SPEAKER_00 58:36

I absolutely, and I love what you said about like I didn't get like I needed to, it needed to come later. I needed to figure this stuff out prior, right? I needed to like work on figure out how these things felt in my body. And then there were all these other things. And I think also just to relate, like my magical everything has evolved or come up because of my intuition leading me down certain roads for a magical practice. Like finding my biodad's family and learning all of this history didn't come because I was sitting on my thumb. You know, like it came because I started doing like ancestral veneration, even though I didn't know exactly everything. But then they started coming and then pathways started opening. But again, it couldn't happen until I got sober. It couldn't happen until I did this stuff, and I was blindly following my intuition towards something, but then my neurodiversity brought me down a rabbit hole of like, let's get into genealogy, let's get into um exploring uh magic by way of can't, you know, like it was just like and then getting obsessive, right? But then, you know, having to go, okay, is it my intuition or is it my anxiety? And that's a big question people have too, all the time. Is it intuition? Is it anxiety? And I always refer back to 9-11 when I think of that because of what happened to me when I was in Bryant Park and it was my intuition, not my anxiety. I woke up clear as a bell, no fear, just you should get on a bus and go home. There was no urgency, there was no like, oh my god, get out, fear. Like, no, and that's how I've always been like, okay, this is how you know the difference. This is how you feel, and now it's taught me a lot about like how anxiety works in my body and what it activates, and then I go, oh wait, and then now knowing where like my biodad's family, you know, like their history and going, oh, it's like ancestral, like epigenetic, like survival shit, you know, like there's ever so many things that get activated, and there's so many moving parts that we can't just compartmentalize it like, oh, it's neurodiversity or it's this or it's that. It's a complex soup, you know, that we're all layered in.

Tarot For Teens And Learning Freedom

SPEAKER_01 1:01:20

Yeah, I think that that learning the difference between how anxiety feels in the body and how intuition feels in the body is so key. And I incorporate that into a lot of my workshops too, because I I love teaching intuition um workshops in general, because a lot of people, just like you were saying, they don't know they're creative. A lot of people don't know they're intuitive either, and everybody has all of that. And I just love that you teach um teens as well as adults. And we wanted to ask you about one of your accomplishments for 14 years. You were the creator and teacher of Intro to Tarot for Teens with the Los Angeles Public Library, and it is just such a gift to give kids access to their intuition and because they already have it, but they might need permission sometimes. Could you share a little bit about this program and why tarot might be a helpful and important tool for self-discovery for young people who are called to it?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:18

Absolutely. Um, I mean, even that like whole experience, right? Um I love working with kids and teaching them like how to empower themselves, right? And usually it's just like with friends, kids, and things like that. But one of my jobs in LA, um, after I the first job I got like officially um when I got fired from my fashion job, I was going to the library and I went into the library and I just said, Yeah, are you hiring by any chance? Anyway, I ended up getting hired um at the library uh as a messenger clerk for a little while. And I was interested, you know, doing readings like on the side, not professionally or anything, just like again to eat. And the teen librarian at the time was like, Do you ever teach? Would you teach? And I was like, Nobody wants that. Nobody wants that. She's like, Are you kidding? She's like, the kids would love this. And I was like, I don't know. And then she convinced me to do a presentation. And I was like, okay, you have to do a presentation in front of the head librarian, uh, the senior, like the senior librarian, the teen librarian, and a messenger clerk and a teen. And then they judge it. And then they like, they were like, okay, that was awesome. We're gonna submit it to the head like thing with the programming department. And then it was like this thing, they're like, okay, so now you're in the system. And if any of the branches want to hire you to reach out to do the program, and I was like, okay, cool, but like nobody's gonna want that, right? Like it's just gonna sit there because they had all sorts. They had a cooking program, they had clay, they had drumming, they had all this stuff. And what's funny is the first like few years, it was only like once, twice a year, maybe, right? But then something started to happen where it was getting like crazy feedback like from the teens, and the teen librarians were like, okay, every quarter they do like different themes, and they would relate it to that. And I I mean, I've I've taught at every branch of the Los Angeles Public Library, which is insane. There's a lot of branches, they go all the way down to San Pedro, like they're everywhere. And I it just became this thing where interacting the with the teens was I they're so good at like finding their own relationship to the imagery, but also calling out where they thought it was like lame or like old-fashioned or whatever. They'd be like, what is a hierophant? Like what? Like they were like so, like, you know, so funny about certain things, but like some of the best things, like their imagination isn't wasn't stifled, and they'll just tell you like it is, you know. Like I remember when we were talking about reversals, like, I never read reversals, but like in the class we talk about it. And I remember one of the kids just being like, I don't know, don't you think the energy is just like frozen, like when it's upside down? And I was like, I love that analogy of like it's just frozen, it's not accessible. And what's wild is that program basically stood the test of time until I ended it. I tried to find a replacement. I gave a couple of names as replacements, but they never picked it back up again. And the Friends of the Library run the funding now. So, because people get paid to do these program presentations with the library, but um, it's why the dream. Tarot, which is the tarot deck that I created during COVID, exists because I had been wanting to create a deck based on those teens over the years, their input about what they thought was wrong and right about the tarot divination system. That's why it's an archetypal deck. There are figures, but they're not gendered, they're archetypes. Um, because that was one of the things they were like, why does it have to be a king and a queen and a what's a page? What's a this, you know? And so a lot of that creation of that deck was based on their input, right? Or even like the Hierophant in that deck is the ancestor because they can relate to that, you know. And then like the the lovers is called the twins because they were like, What the lovers? Like, what like they would be so upset. I love how like animated they would be, but also like I don't know, there's just something so I it's really that phrase of be the person you wish was there for you when you were a kid, and that really informed my way of showing up with that program and the way I like to show up with young people.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:12

Oh, yeah, and teenagers are gonna tell you exactly how it is and exactly how they feel about it.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:19

Ruthless. Yes, and then also what's wild too is to watch like certain branches, like we I mean, there were certain branches where we got complaints, you know, deeply religious, you know. Um, you know, there were people that threatened to like boycott the library if I came to the class. Um, but then there would be other ones that like it's wild. Like I would have like because I did it for so long, it'd be like kids and then like their siblings, and then they would show up as adults. Like it was, it was um, yeah, it was really beautiful to like witness and then also to just like have them. One of the things is is when you when I was a kid, it you were supposed to be seen but not heard, right? And I think that one of the things that was important to me, especially with teaching them, is giving them a place where nothing felt like they weren't stupid, there was no stupid questions, there was no like hierarchy or authority, and everyone had value and input, and also they would ask really intense stuff sometimes, you know. You're like, Yeah, you know, and like having to navigate them coming back to their own intuition and trusting themselves because they're like, Well, this teacher told me this, this adult told me that. And I'm like, Well, what do you feel? How do you feel?

SPEAKER_02 1:08:45

So it's so empowering for them to be asked that. That's so beautiful. And I'm sure too that you know, to hear that the dreamers came out of the inspiration that they gave to you, you know, they must feel so seen by that information to know.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:00

I hope so. I mean, I think like, you know, it's interesting because it's just people grow up really quickly, and in a 14-year time span, you see a person become like they were bringing like little siblings, they're adults now. It's weird to, you know, I still did like I forget like how old I am, you know, or I like see them and I'm like, oh my gosh, you're a full grown adult. You know, and but to hear how that like helped them think outside of the box with certain things, right? Because not all of them were like, oh, I'm gonna go do card readings. They just loved, they loved the lore, the archetypes, you know, they loved the history. I mean, I love that we're record we're recording today on Pamela Coleman Smith's birthday. Like they loved learning about um different art creators who made decks. So I introduced got to introduce them to like older like artists to new modern artists, you know, like it just it's it's such like there's so much packed in a deck that isn't just about divination.

The Initiates Oracle And Egypt

SPEAKER_02 1:10:07

Yeah, it's like really uh it's a capturing of the time period, right? It's it's imagery, it's symbolism that's so relevant to what's happening when it's being created by the creator. And I think that that's a beautiful segue for you to tell us a little bit about your upcoming deck release, the initiates oracle. What informed the creation of this deck and what can users expect to tap into when they pull from this deck?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:33

Oh, okay. So initiates came out of there's a couple of things. So um in December of 2022, I traveled to Egypt with 28, I think there was 28 of us um magicians, but through um we went and did uh it was with 22 Teachings, which is a hermetic magic school in Los Angeles, where I was a teacher at occasionally I would teach. But um we did a pilgrimage to Egypt to go to visit all of the temples and the pyramids and to do the initiations of the Sphinx. One of the things that felt really important was the buildup to this trip. A lot of us got to work with an Egyptian man educator who we got to learn um about. We we actually did a hieroglyphics class, we got to learn about like art history and things like that. And then uh Isis Indari from Academy of Oracle Arts, who's in Nevada City, was also one of the people that led the trip. And she offered um, we did a neturu class, so about the Egyptian cosmology. So it was a lot of history involved in learning. And um, I've always had a connection to Egypt, like since I was a little, little like a I call it, I don't know, that's the thing. I'm like, is it is is it my psychic intuitive connection or was it my autism like special interest, you know? Because it was, I was like building sandboxes out of with like a shoebox and dirt growing up in Rhode Island with like it was crazy, it was wild. But um, one of the the fellow uh magicians that I met for the first time on that trip, Adam Smith, him and I clicked right away, like we we connected and we both were the temple guardians at Philae, which is the temple of Oset Isis. She's my main patron, and we just were talking about like we should make a deck. We kind of were just like, ugh, you know, like let's do it. And it was um, you know, it was a seed that was planted there, and then some time had gone by because I had to have I had to have a hysterectomy, I had all this other stuff come up. Adam lives in South Carolina, and then I moved from California to Tucson, Arizona in 2024, and then we finally got back to it. He had been working on drawings, and normally I do all the art and the writing, but for this one, he's a phenomenal artist and a tattooer. He had been working on all the illustrations, and I decided, you know, he had asked me, like, well, would you write the book? All my decks have very like minimalist, typically minimalist books with them. They have keywords, minimal meanings, and that is intentional. That was to kind of help people activate their own intuition and figure out what those things mean to them, not with me telling. This was a chance for me to really nerd out on things that fascinate me with magic and with connection. So I really got to, I don't know, like flex my nerd uh connection to magic in writing this because I didn't have the added task of creating the imagery. So this deck essentially I have is it's a deck for magicians by magicians, but anyone can use it, right? But what I think of it is and what I've been learning, because we got some physical copies ahead of time to like play around with, and I've been like really enjoying like going, okay, uh what needs to be worked on. Like I've been using it. Um I'm teaching I'm doing a retreat coming up, and I was like, I'm gonna use the deck to kind of outline my retreat, you know. Um it's uh it's not meant to be like this I don't know, I don't want to say it, like everything's valid, right? But it's not like a do they like me deck, you know? Like it's it's it's meant to be like we're like a companion for your magical path. Right. It's not like a I don't think of it like it's an everyday circumstance type deck, but it's definitely meant to work in collaboration with you um in your magical practice, or even if you're just building or wanting to create one in that way. So yeah, just that's I I guess that's kind of where we're at with it. But it's it feels like it's taken so long to get here, and I'm just like ready for it to be birthed already.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:20

That is such a cool story. Oh my gosh. I um also was a little one obsessed with Egypt when I was a kid. I had an auntie who would retell Egyptian mythology, and even though you know we're not Egyptian, um, I do tend to have a lot of its symbolism come to me because of my childhood love of it. And I I just love um that you drew from this place that inspired you so much as a kid, and now you've created this with someone who's coming with their own magic, and I can't wait to look at it. I'm so excited.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:52

Um it's also just to hold something you've made from and have it like in the physical is such a it's such a like empowering, but also just like surreal thing to like hold something physically. That was an idea. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:13

Uh the first time that um I saw my book in the material, um, I got a box delivered. Paulina, my co-author, got hers at the same time, and we were on the phone. We were like, okay, I feel like I'm gonna throw up. And we were both like really overwhelmed. We're like, let's just open it.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:30

Just like, but then it was really exciting, but yeah, really exciting and powerful and beautiful. And then also at the same time, just to name it, because I really want to remind creators too, there's a little bit of grief that comes with you know, all of a sudden you're like holding this thing, and it's like with any kind of art or creation, it's it's suddenly not just yours anymore. You know, so that's exciting, but also there's a little like oh now it goes out to whoever's hands it's going to go into, you know. So there's this little bittersweetness with it.

Tarot Card Music Pairings

SPEAKER_01 1:17:10

It's truly wild. We love to play a little tarot game with our guests who read tarot. It's meant to be a kind of alternative educational tool for anyone listening, or it can just be fun for anyone who's, you know, real familiar with tarot. Um, where basically you get to pick whatever tarot card you want and the song that you associate with it and tell us a little bit about why you pair a certain song with a certain tarot card, and we'll all share one today. Oh yeah. If you want one of us, can go first.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:44

Yeah, I think I was thinking, I'm like, okay, like, do you I don't know why I was thinking of thinking, do you pick one and then we come up with the song, or do we already know one?

SPEAKER_01 1:17:56

It's totally up to you. So sometimes people might be like, Oh, I always associate the song with like the Queen of Pentacles, or um I drew a card earlier today and um had myself come up with one. Like however you want to do it, if you want to put draw one on the spot, or if you're like probably draw one on the spot.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:15

Yeah, but maybe you all go first, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:18

Yeah, so the one I picked today was the Knight of Pentacles, and I actually have two songs for it, different flavors. Um so the Knight of Pentacles, the most the first place my brain went was taking care of business. Um and um because it that song is so fun. It's about waking up early in the morning, but there's also this sense of like being a working artist and how you don't want to maybe maybe you love to work at nothing all day, and that's part of your trade. Um, by Bachman Turner and uh sorry, by Bachman Turner Overdrive. Um so taking care of business, I think, is one of them. But sometimes when I think of this song in relationship to self-care and not just, you know, the work that we do and the labor that we do, um, I think of the group Oshun, and there's this song Blessings on Blessings, and it's all yeah, it's not such a good song. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so it's all about being on a path and being in your body. And there's this great line. Um uh that's I think it's don't disrespect my god body, and it's all about just honoring um how intuition and your power is linked to taking care of the vessel that you're in. It's a beautiful song. It's more, you know, it's got a lot going on in it, but that also feels very Knight of Pentacles to me. We're on a we're on a journey, we're taking care of things. Yeah. You're doing it ocean or taking care of business kind of way. I love that.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:50

I love these. Marcella, did you have one? Um I can go. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:57

Okay. I'm actually, it's so funny because it links back to what you were just saying before we started playing. So my card today is the fool, and the song is Miley Cyrus, the climb. And it's not about the end destiny. I love it. I was in the lorry side the other day. This song came on shovel. I started crying in the street because I was like, she is so right. It's not about the destination, it's about the climb. And I just thought how beautiful it is to be at the beginning of a journey. And someday you will get there and there will be a physical, tangible thing that you can present to the world. But for that time that it's yours and you're just working towards it just feels so beautiful. I'm probably like gonna start crying. But I was like, that is so gorgeous, and I just loved that. So that is my offering today, the climb.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:49

Oh, that's beautiful. I'm gonna like really intuitively go for it here because I I don't know why. I just I was like, oh well, I'll just pull and see what comes up. And um, I'm like, of course, the deck I have on my desk is like because I went to I uh I got some decks from a estate sale from a magician that passed last month, who's in his 80s, and one of the decks was literally this Miss Cleo's tarot power deck from you know, do you we all remember Miss Cleo, but it's like oh my gosh, yes. But this deck is so it's yeah, I'm I'm dying to see the imagery on this deck. It's got an Egyptian vibe to it, okay. Which is kind of amazing, but like also the drawings look like the uh well, you'll see. I'm just gonna shuffle and pull like what's the card and kind of see what the song is, right? Oh, that's cool. We got the three of cups. Okay, us, it's us, us, yeah, right, because like the three of cups. Oh my goodness. Um oh, that's so funny. I'm usually not stumped for music, but also like that's just such a like a fun card. Almost gonna say shake it out by Florence and the Machine. Oh, love, yes, I love right, and like Three of Cups, you know, why not? Yeah, Shake It Out, Florence and the Machine. Like, there's like a beautiful aspect of this that just um that song, like whenever I I hear it, like I just get it's almost like um she's such a witch, right? Like there's just such like a cone of power with that song, like you can feel the energy kind of coming up, and like I've been a fool, I've been blind, like and then like but I leave the past behind, like just like celebrating and kind of uplift like that lifting up feeling, especially with the Three of Cups, because they're raising their cups up to the sky. Like, um, and that to me, I don't know. I just feel like this is the vibe we need to bring moving forward, especially with all this talk about community. We need to celebrate each other's wins, not just our own victories, but like, hey, I see you, you see me, like bringing it all up and together, and that shake it shake it out just feels really like perfect for that. I love it.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:18

I feel like I need to show you another like one of these cards just because they're so I will say that's not what I thought the imagery was looking like, so I'm pleasantly surprised.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:30

You're really like I don't even know how to describe beautiful, yeah. They are beautiful. It does have Egyptian, it's it's like got an Egyptian vibe, right? But the drawings are kind of like remind me of like a like an 80s, 90s rap album. Yeah, like yes, that's like the vibe.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:53

I didn't expect to like it this much.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:55

I know I kind of love, I mean, I kind of love it, like, or they all like the um aces, they all have long nails, like finger, yes. They're like they're like definitely like manicured and you know, like who are listening, they're just like very uh colorful Egyptian but cartoonish um illustrations, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:24:20

Yeah, it definitely has that like 80s, 90s animation vibe to it. Like if you can imagine like that the that kind of hand that cartoonists had. So, so not what I imagined the miscleo deck to look like at all.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:35

Delightful. I love them. I love them. They're really this was a really special, um, a special find for sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:46

Uh yeah, and you were brought to it.

unknown 1:24:50

Totally.

Grounding Practices And Psychic Hygiene

SPEAKER_01 1:24:51

Which tools and practices do you tend to lean on for your personal healing and self-care the most?

SPEAKER_00 1:25:00

You know, anything physical for me, because it's so hard to stay in the body. Um, I have such a hard time being in my physical body. So I have to do things like um, well, one physical things that include like house, like cleansing, clearing, like physical, lots of cleansing and clearing practices. And then, you know, certain rituals that keep me again, keep me connected to the physical, even if it's like I'm going to like put on a simmer pot. I'm going to ring mute music helps me like center and ground. Um, but honestly, like I don't relax. I'm not good at meditating or things like that. But I have to like go, I get it's it's one of those things also uh with my sensory stuff, like I have to get manicures or I'll get things that like make me stay in place and be in the body, but force me to be still. And I have to do that like a minimum, you know, like as a minimum of once a month to just kind of stay grounded and and clear, like a clear channel. Um, because I'm not, I didn't grow up a nature girl. I mean, I love nature, I appreciate it, but like I'm not one that's gonna just like go hiking or anything like that. Um, any kind of movement dance kind of thing. I started aerial class, that was a real trip. Like, you know, actually, like I have class today. Um, but like I think again, like anything that gets me to be playful in the physical, um, and then again, cleansing, clearing practices. Yeah, those feel really important.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:48

We've been hearing that so much about getting back into the body. And I feel that especially for spiritual practitioners, it's so important to ground by like a lot of physicality. So this is beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:59

Well, especially when you are psychically tuning in and tapping in, and then I think people don't realize that they are so affected by collective energies. I don't think they realize that they're more affected than they are, like, you know, like they are we think like, oh, I'm impacted, but you don't actually realize until three days later, you're like, why am I dragging? Why am I feeling this way? And I'm like, because everything that you're being bombarded with right now, while it is good to be in the know, you might the thing is, it's not always what you're consuming, you're feeling it, it's in the ethers, right? Even if you're avoiding taking in certain information, you're still feeling it, you're being impacted. And I think that, you know, uh just because there is a sense of disconnect with like the internet or online, it doesn't mean that it's not coming through at you. So being physical, it can feel almost painful because you start feeling everything.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:00

Literally.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:01

Oh, and I especially like in New York, I I am so cognizant when I've been out. And you know what I mean? Around a lot of people, like my physical body is like, whoa, whoa, whoa. That's a lot of energy to be taking on. So it's just being more aware, I think, now than ever before.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:18

Absolutely. And that's why, you know, like doing those protective practices or, you know, those cleansing and clearings and and and keeping up on it. And um, I mean, it's part of I had to leave California.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:31

Um, you know, too, was the overstimulation and the heaviness of everything. And I know that's not, you know, always you can't just move, you can't just leave. But I think it got so loud to the point, you know, where I was like, I didn't my whole body, like my shoulders were up at my ears until I moved.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:54

So we're glad that you're more grounded now where you are.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:59

Thanks. I mean, it's a whole life, it's gonna be a lifelong, I think, lesson to to stay grounded because it's really easy for me to not be here.

Retreats, Apprenticeship, And What’s Next

SPEAKER_02 1:29:10

Yeah. You did mention your upcoming retreat, but what else are you focusing on in 2026? Or and tell us more about this retreat and what you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:20

Oh, amusing. Yeah. So I am hosting, I've tried to like host a couple. I've tried, I here's the thing, too, which I think a lot of people get frustrated when they try something and it doesn't work and they give up. Or, you know, I am the queen of having to do things, you know, multiple times before it clicks. Like, because sometimes, like you said, you're in the future, right? And you have this idea, and sometimes you're so far ahead that you're not like paying attention to the physical and what people are really ready for. So it would be also you human design manifesting generator problems. Like, I'm constantly thinking of things here, right? You know, the the pain of like being like, this is awesome, this is gonna be great. And then no one shows up. But then, like four years later, you're walking down the street and someone's doing the same exact thing and it's like successful, and I'm like devastated, right? It took me a long time to learn like how to reel it in and wait, you know. But um, I've tried to host a couple of retreats, they have not been able to take off. But this one, I am doing an altar within retreat where um, you know, it's out in New Mexico in the hot springs. I'm really excited. Um, where we're really getting to have a this, the other thing in true fashion. I kept trying to overplan things. And this one I was like, you know what? I'm just gonna make it semi-immersive. It's gonna be real loose. It's gonna be very much like, yeah, we're doing work, but you're not bound by me. Like you get to do whatever you want in your off time. Like I really love this flexibility and also self-accountability combination, and that's always worked best for me. So we have three days in the hot springs. We're gonna do ritual, we're gonna do some self-kind of reflection and realignment. And I've made, um, well, because by the time this, I've made little goodies for everyone, like little, because of my artistic nature too, I made little clay heads for everyone that they can use to do magic on themselves, um, which I'm really excited about because a lot of the people who are coming do a lot of work for other people. So this is a way for them to kind of reset, recenter, and recharge and bring some care into themselves so they can be replenished with a full battery and go back to their worlds because they're coming in from all over the country, which is exciting. And then the other thing I'm really excited about that I am launching at the end of this month. Um, I'm offering my first ever Depth Oracle apprenticeship program. And I have a group uh right now, I have a spring cohort and I have a few one-on-ones. And it's all about becoming the Oracle, the archetype of the Oracle. It does not matter if you have a divination practice or what that looks like. It's more about fine-tuning and coming back to that intuitive reclamation we spoke about and trusting yourself, but then also working with tools and gifts that help you really like, I don't know, if you think of it like being able to ground and hold a charge in a very like in a frequency that's been stronger than ever. And then also how to support yourself in this ever-changing landscape with AI and deep fakes, and you know, how to really still hear your own voice and um and connect to those creative parts of self and trust yourself. So uh I offer a lot of in the past, I've offered a lot of introduction stuff, which has been really good, but I felt really called this year to go like deeper with um and spend more quality time with folks uh in navigating this changing landscape. So yeah, it's been, it's, it's quite a different year, but I also, I mean, Saturn and Pisces did a number on me uh in terms of kind of identity and what my work is shifting into. And at first I was really upset about it because like I finally got the hang of this, and now you're telling me I have to change. And that's incorporated in so many aspects of my life, you know, whether it's my work or even how I show up like as an agent of chaos, change, or advocacy. So yeah, those that's what I got going on.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:56

That is so fascinating. I mean, what's the best way for people to find you and support your work if they want to sign up for these things or just stay in touch with you?

SPEAKER_00 1:34:06

Yeah, I think um, so on my website, which is MarcellaCroll.com, I have a newsletter option you can sign up for. I try to send out stuff maybe once a month or once every other month, so it's not too often. Um, and then my Instagram is at Marcella Kroll in a year from now. I do have the book on protecting yourself psychically coming out with Wiser. Um Yay! Yeah, it's called Magical Shielding. And it's I'm again in the spirit of going, you know, getting a nerd out on the things that I actually know and want to share. Like I got to do that with this book. It's coming out in a year from now. So um, if you want to be in the loop on that too, that's you know, the newsletter and then just I guess Instagram for now.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:53

Wonderful. Thank you so much for spending this time with us. It was such a pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:58

Yes, so beautiful. Thank you for having me. Um, it was really great getting to talk with you both and and just like feel the camaraderie and that that three of cups vibe.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:11

So three of cups.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:14

Truly the perfect card.

Closing Thanks And Listener Support

SPEAKER_01 1:35:17

Truly, thank you. Thank you so much for joining us in the immaterial world. While you're here, we hope you subscribe, rate, and review us on your favorite streaming services. The real magic is in connection and community. Share your favorite episode with friends and come follow us for more on Instagram at Immaterial World Pod and Patreon at patreon.com backslash immaterial world.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:36

Material Company in the egg material in the egg material, the material, the egg material, Immaterial World is hosted by Jessica Richards and Jasmina Fonkella. Music and editing by Dia Luna. Artwork by Lady Fred. Follow Immaterial World Pod on Instagram and Patreon at patreon.com backslash immaterial world. You can visit our website at www.immaterial-world.com or email us at immaterialworldpod at gmail.com. Thank you for being part of our immaterial world.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:49

Welcome to the immaterial world.