Immaterial World

ANALYZING FASHION with Avery Trufelman

• Jessica Richards and Jezmina Von Thiele • Season 1 • Episode 26

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Avery Trufelman is the host and producer of the podcast Articles of Interest, named one of the best podcasts of the year by the New Yorker, The New York Times, The Atlantic, and many others. She was named one of the 500 most important people by the trade journal Business of Fashion.

In this episode, Avery discusses how clothing serves as a context for culture, the "invisible" aspects of fashion, and so much more.

https://www.averytrufelman.com/

https://articlesofinterest.substack.com/

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Hosted by Jessica Richards and Jezmina Von Thiele

For bookings and for more about Jessica visit: www.the12th.house and Instagram: @jessicaxrich 

For bookings and for more about Jezmina visit: www.jezminavonthiele.com and Instagram: @jezmina.vonthiele

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Music and editing by DIA LUNA

Instagram: @dialunamusic

Artwork by Lane Friend 

Instagram: @friendlane

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Welcome To Immaterial World

SPEAKER_00

Welcome to Immaterial World, a dedicated and transparent space to recenter how we explore glamour, magic, culture, and everything else we love together.

SPEAKER_02

As bright as the galaxy goes, we're flying in the in the material. In the material world, come in the material world. We're flying in the material world.

SPEAKER_00

Avery Truffelman is a host and producer of the podcast Articles of Interest, named one of the best podcasts of the year by The New Yorker, The New York Times, The Atlantic, and many others. She was named one of the 500 most important people by the trade journal Business of Fashion.

SPEAKER_01

When I talk about my work in trend forecasting, I'm never just going to say it's all about this color or it's all about this detail. You know, wear red, wear bows, buy this. I think that it's important to empower people with understanding the why of trend, how things have unfolded and come to be and why they might be invited to participate in a certain trend at any given time. Often to the chagrin of my clients, too, I will say. They they like to push products and I like to empower them a little bit more about the why. So I'm thrilled to chat with our guest today who, like me, has got to know the why and gets to the historical origins of the mundane in fashion. Hello, Avery Truffleman. We are so, so excited to welcome you to the immaterial world.

SPEAKER_04

Thank you so much. This is so fun.

Avery Truffelman’s Radio Path

SPEAKER_01

We are delighted. So excited to have you here. Um, do you want to tell us a little bit about your professional journey, your personal journey, and how we got here today?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, sure. So I um yeah, I always like to start by being very transparent that I am a Nepo baby, even though it means something very different when you like work in radio. It's not as glamorous. But I kind of always wanted to work in radio because my parents met working in radio. They met working at WNYC. And I grew up, like the radio was always on when I was growing up. They'd always tell stories and show pictures about like working at the station after midnight, smoking cigarettes, cutting tape with a knife, and Alan Ginsburg would wander in, just you know, antics at the radio station. And I think for lack of other idea, like I really just did not know what I wanted to do with my life. And I think I heard other kids be like, I want to be an astronaut. And I was like, Oh, I want to be a radio producer. Like, that seems fun. And so my whole life I was like, I'll just be a radio producer like my parents. Like, that just seems like a fun job. You like read books and you you go to concerts and you record people talking, and that sounds great. And then I chose uh where I went to school based on wanting to work in radio, and I took all my classes past fail and spent all my time at the radio station. And then when I graduated, I like could not get a job in radio because there are only so many stations on the dial and so many people at each station. And uh, I think my parents were the only two people in the history of WNYC who actually left their job. Like everybody stays in radio for as long as they possibly can. And then thankfully, when I entered it, like podcasting was becoming a thing, but it was so rinky dank. It was so small beans when I started. I graduated college in 2013, and so it was like this new little thing. And so I worked for this podcast that was really small called 99% invisible. And then while I was working at it, podcasting blew up and the timing was incredible. Like serial came out while I was working at this podcast, and I remember I was in a bathhouse in San Francisco, and this like big Russian guy sat down next to me and he was like, So you listen to the cereal? And I was like, Oh my god, podcasting has like made it. Like, do you know it used to be like that?

SPEAKER_01

That was the sign.

SPEAKER_04

Oh, 100%. Because you know, it used to be like, Do you know what a podcast is? And it was like, no. And then as soon as I was in a spa with this guy, like talking about cereal, I was like, Oh, like this is really different. Like, this is like stuff is like it's really gonna change. Um, and then I've just been, and it's really funny. I go to podcasting like meetups and conferences. I was at South by Southwest last year, and everyone was like, How long have you been working in podcasting? Like, my whole life, like since I was 22. I've never done anything else. I'm like a dinosaur. It's a very young industry, but I'm like a dinosaur in this young industry. So I've never done anything else.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, it's also crazy too, because I'm I'm sure you get this a lot, but like the voice for radio that you have too. It's like, you know, it's like two parents coming from radio and like you were born to do this. I could listen to you talk about anything, but oh, thank you.

SPEAKER_04

Well, they weren't they weren't announcers, you know, they like worked in behind the scenes, they weren't, they were like producers. But I will say I always like um, I always love listening to um like the first episodes of shows and later episodes, because you can really hear as people get more comfortable on the microphone, their voice like drops, then they start out like really high and squeaky. And I think I've just been doing this for so long that I got more comfortable. Like I just think like the radio voice is is is a comfort thing. So it's funny. I think there is this element of of predestination or something where people are like, oh, your voice. But I think it like these things are interwoven. I think I also sort of chose my voice by just being on mic for so long, which is kind of funny. I just listen to my own voice all the time.

SPEAKER_01

It's like, you know, when you're speaking in that super high voice, it's like, is this okay? And then you exactly, exactly. Actually, I'm really relaxed.

SPEAKER_04

Let me tell you about this. Yeah, exactly. You're like, whatever, it's no big deal. And I I listen back to my old squeaky radio stories. And it's not like I've ever had like a particularly squeaky voice, but you can tell I'm just like I'm like breathing through my I'm just like, I'm so nervous. I'm so nervous, I'm gonna make a mistake. And yeah, he was like, and I'm sure you've you've felt it like with every recording you do, you're like, okay, you know, whatever. Oh, you know, definitely.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, you know, when I met you back in gosh, was it like 2021 or 2022? Yeah, yeah. So Paulina and I had just started Romanasan podcasts because she was just featured on the LA Times podcast foretold. And so, yeah, I've been my voice has been dropping for a few years. Yes. But yeah, Paulina and I were obsessed with you immediately just because you speak so interestingly about the work you do. Your podcast articles of interest treats clothing as a cultural text, which you know, Paulina and I were like, let's talk about patterns with you forever and why they're so important. And so we both nerded out so hard with you and we're so excited that we could talk to someone who understands the cultural text of clothing and um and what cult how cultural can transcend ethnicity. There's so many different subsets of culture. So, what inspires you to explore fashion in this multifaceted narrative way?

SPEAKER_04

Well, first of all, thank you so much. That's like so kind of you to say, and you know, the feeling of obsession is totally mutual, especially with Paulina.

SPEAKER_00

I hope she's doing well. She is. We're working on our second book now. Ah, congratulations. In the tarot deck.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, that's we're busy. That's incredible. I know as soon as you said that, I'm like, you should make an episode of Articles of Interest with all of your spare time that you have. I'm sure you don't, but that would be really fun.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, we would do it in a heartbeat. We would yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04

Because after, sorry, maybe this is all maybe this will all be cut from the episode, but after we had that dinner and like um you guys gave me all these brands to look into. I was like, these are amazing. I was like, what like there must be a story in here somewhere.

SPEAKER_00

So oh yeah, there is. Let's talk.

SPEAKER_04

Okay, we'll talk later. We'll talk later. Sorry, what was your question?

Curiosity As A Reporting Method

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, what inspired you to start articles of interest? Why do you like to explore fashion in this multifaceted narrative way?

SPEAKER_04

Well, I'm genuinely confused by it. That's something that uh I think it all really comes from a genuine place of confusion. Um, like I only set out to ask real questions that I genuinely have. Um like, how do I put this? Sometimes people ask me, like, why are you so obsessed with fashion? I'm like, I'm not really obsessed. I mean, I love clothing. I think clothing is amazing. I just have a lot of questions about it. Um, like a perfect example that I love to give is an early episode I did was about perfume because I like didn't get it. You know, I didn't understand why it was so expensive. I didn't understand why it was in all the duty free shops. Um I was like, clearly, this is a hustle. You know, it's just a name for, it's just a way for brands to extend their reach. It's basically flavored water, it's all about the packaging. I wanted to be like, wake up, sheeple, it's not real, you know, it's all chemicals. And I was like, I'm gonna blow the lid off this thing. And then of course I dipped a toe in and was like, this is amazing. This is an art form. I'm obsessed with this. And now I'm like, I've become that thing that I once ridiculed. I like have a million bottles of perfume and I'm obsessed with perfume now. But I didn't know that until I talked to the actual artists and engineers and scientists who who make this stuff. So that's the thing. Each episode comes from a place of like real, genuine, genuine confusion. And I think I really wanted to make uh a show for people who are who are really genuinely curious about what we wore, not necessarily in looking at like runway or looking at magazines, and not even necessarily in shopping. Like, I don't think looking at clothing is the same as buying clothing. I think you can enjoy you can enjoy clothing in the same way some people enjoy bird watching. It's just like human plumage. Like you can just be out on the street. It's so there's so much of it everywhere. There's so much to read and to and and to enjoy by looking at it, it's as you said, is like a rich text. And as soon as you start noticing it, you start asking, like, why do people do that? Why do people do that? Why do people do that? And I was like, I guess I'll just make a show about that.

Building Stories From Small Details

SPEAKER_01

I love this. And you know, it's funny that you are calling out the episode with perfume. We did have Arabelle Saccardi on our show, and we really talked about perfume and how like Yeah, and it's so funny because when you say perfume, the thing that I think about is Dana Thomas, who you've interviewed on your show, and you know, deluxe how luxury lost its luster. I talked about that on the Arabelle Sicardi episode. And like that that book came out in 2008. It would, and I remember that because it was like a pivotal point in my career when I understood from that book how mass production was going to change everything, like that that I was sort of being brought into. And like it was like, actually, it's not even gonna stay like this. Like, we're gonna move into something like um, you know, super, super um large scale, very much like the high street fashion kind of model of Europe. And that's exactly what happened. Um, but I did want to just call out a couple of my favorite episodes. The clueless closet episode is one of my favorites because it is the eternal question, right? Like I think so many people have wondered why don't we have that yet? And you really get into that. Um, I wanted to just call out a few of my favorite episodes, the clueless closet episode, something that we've all thought about. Why doesn't that exist? And you really break it down and get into that in a way that makes so much sense. Um, you know, talking about styling, that's something that I do more on the commercial side. You get into it more of how it came to be in the celebrity world and Hollywood, again, Dana Thomas. Um, and then also, of course, like this episode that you've run a couple of times with updates, but the mannequins from the theater of the mode and and and how that came to be. What are what is the favorite story that you've un uncovered or that you've you've um researched?

SPEAKER_04

Oh, well, thank you. Those are some of my favorites too. I don't know, like they're all my children. They all take they all take so long to do. Like they all take so long to make. Um I don't know. There are like certain experiments that I've done with multi-part storytelling. Like I did one big series about where do preppy clothes come from, and I just did one recently about the intersection of the outdoor industry and the American military, which was like totally mind-blowing for me. Like I'd never really interacted with the military before doing this. Like those in-depth explorations I learned so much from. So I think those are really, really dear to me. And I also really struggle to put together like a more complicated story over many, many parts that extend over time. So those those ones are always like extra precious. But I I don't know, I love them all. I mean, they each take like a year to make, they take so long to make.

Why AI Styling Misses The Point

SPEAKER_01

So oh my God, that is so it's so fascinating. And you know, just like with anything, you have to pick your battles, right? Like, what are the things that you really want to get into? And one of the reasons why I love the clueless closet episode, first of all, you talked about so many things that I love. You talk about the wardrobe stylist versus the set stylist or the prop stylist. And I always say, like the prop stylists and the people that are setting this, this, you know, doing the sets, they're the real heroes. Like people don't realize that is a really, really hard job that is so different than the wardrobe stylist. And then you get into them, the reason why it doesn't exist basically is because of the mass that you would have to accumulate for that to really be a real working model. But there's something that you very gently say that I don't so gently say in my work, which is, you know, this is coming from a human perspective. That taste is really coming from a curation from somebody that knows what the hell they're talking about versus an AI that you want to just spit at you and tell you what to do because you sort of like want to sign over your own human intention. Right. Right. So I'm always in this place of how do we get people to understand the importance of human artistry and human touch in style and how that is sort of at odds with this idea of AI or the computerization of things. What do you think about this? And and I think that you you sort of gently navigate this in that conversation so well. I've listened to this episode a few times because sometimes this comes up for me in my work. So I'm I'm curious your take because you're also sort of navigating in that world in such an interesting way.

SPEAKER_04

You mean the people who are like, why bother? Like, why should I make it?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, like I would rather that a computer just tell me what outfit to put together. Like I even found it funny when when you were talking to the people that had done the app and they were like, I would have never thought to put this together. And it sounded to me as though they just sort of rolled in a pile of clothes and they were like, oh, the computer said to do this, so it works for me.

SPEAKER_04

I mean, yeah, the thing, the thing about fashion that I think about all the time, the thing about clothing is that it's like really resisted the material age or the the age of automation in so many ways, even though, of course, it was the start of the age of automation. I mean, that's what the Luddites were resisting. That's why they were um, you know, bashing looms is because they were scared of automation. Like, this is where the term comes from. And it is wild that, yes, although looms were able to be automated eventually. I feel like the vast majority of people, like I was having this conversation with my father of all people. He was like, Avery, why does a shirt still need to cost$700? I was like, it really depends on the shirt, Dad.

SPEAKER_01

Sometimes it's something patch me in for that conversation. I can get into that part.

SPEAKER_04

Exactly. I was like, okay, there are a lot of elements to consider here. And he was like, it's brand markup, isn't it? It's like sometimes, yeah, but sometimes not. Like, where's the cotton from? Like, who made it? You know, like look at the seams. How are they finished? All these different things. And he was like, but doesn't a machine just spit that out? And I wanted to be like, father, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like, people don't know. People don't know that every single garment we wear is still made by a human. And I feel like, especially in this day and age where like your music collection is no longer physical, your like movie collection is no, like, who even has a movie collection anymore? Like, people don't own physical collections of things. It's all just sort of in the cloud and it's like changing and shifting all the time. But the stuff that's in your closet is still like physical and yours, and you touch it and you've collected it, and you're not gonna be able and you still like have a physical body. You're not gonna be able to outsource that. It's a physical collection that you have to have, and like it or not, it does say something about you. So it's like so resolutely human that you might as well lean into like it was made with human hands for your human body, and it contains every single thing contains such a rich history and something as simple, which is why I really like doing this series about like where preppy clothes come from and where military clothes come from, because these are garments that people think are like basics or simple. They're like, Oh, this isn't saying anything, but everything says something. You know, they're all these really rich texts that whether or not you dress for other people, other people are reading, but really like it should make you happy, like it should tell an interesting story to you. It'd be like having a machine tell you what to eat for dinner every night. You'd feel gross after a while.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, you know, I I have to say this that one of my dreams was to have a television show like Chef's Table about the fashion industry because people don't realize that humans make your clothes. It is something it's it's so interesting that you said your dad, you know, that the I think that people believe that robots make their clothes and that there's so many things, but you don't know how many human hands have touched different parts of the processes and you know how samples come to be created and like where patterns come from. And it's so fascinating. And I think that the work that you do is a bridge to the unseen world that that people don't really comprehend when it comes to fashion. So I find this so fascinating to talk about because you're really in the weeds with this in a different way.

SPEAKER_04

Thank you. Well, I mean, I think a helpful thing for me is that you know, I'm not an insider and I'm still perpetually like perplexed by all the levels of depth that our clothes go through. Like I'm working on a story right now about fit models and talking with lots of different fit models, and just like, yeah, oh my God, that's it's cool, right? It's cool, but it's like the the amount of work and arguably love and care, right? Like you could interpret it as of love as love and care. Like the amount of times a garment has to get fitted over and over again to like make sure you can move in it, make sure it's comfortable. And these like amazing people, they're they're like athletes, you know, they're just perfectly proportional athletes, they just stand all day long, they're incredible.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and the the first 15 years of my career were in design and product development, and there's so many nuances like that that I don't think people know. And those people are like the muse of the brand, right? Like they're the body of that brand. It's oh my god, I can't wait to listen to that one.

unknown

Oh, thanks. Thanks.

SPEAKER_04

It's yeah, it's very interesting talking to them. And they're like so hard to reach because they never check their email, you know, they're just like out on their feet all day long. It's super interesting.

SPEAKER_00

Wow, that is fascinating. Jess, I still think you should do that TV show, by the way.

SPEAKER_01

But yeah, putting it in putting it in the universe, putting it in the universe.

SPEAKER_00

You would be great for that. Yeah. Um, yeah. How has all of this affected the way that you dress and style yourself, Avery? Like there you think so deeply about this. How does it come into your personal life?

SPEAKER_04

That's such a good question. I mean, I just end up falling in love with anything I do a story about, even stuff that I thought I would never ever like, especially like the military clothes. I was like, never, like I could never, I won't. And now I'm like, oh, this stuff is really great. Like it has such an interesting backstory, and I feel really aligned with it. Like, once you know a little bit more about anything, I don't know. I think I used to be very judgmental of clothes and be like, oh, that's what they wear. I wear this, they wear that. And then once I learned this is why I really like doing a podcast about clothes because it's non visual, right? Like you could look at the clothes and Like, that's not me. But once you hear the story behind it, I don't know. I just kind of like the preppy clothes too. I just hated, and then I fell in love with them afterwards. I'm trying to think of a good example. Like here, okay, this is a shirt that I got, or this vest that I'm wearing currently. Um, I got it recently on a trip to China. And while I was there, I was doing a story about um, well, I don't know how to quite describe what it's about, but it's a it's it started the way all stories do with a genuine question. When I saw women walking around dressed in 14th century costume, like they looked like Queen Amadala. I was like, what is going on? And at first, you know, like with these amazing imperial hairdoes with lots of like jewels in their hair and um and these fans, and they would go to the Imperial Palace or these tourist attractions and they would take pictures of themselves. And so I was like, oh, it's an Instagram thing. It's just like an Instagram thing. But then they were everywhere and they're walking around on the street, and I slowly realized that this is starting to inform designers. Like I was looking at the Adidas China collection. I was like, I see these elements of like 14th century. Like, why is everyone reverting to the 14th century here in China? Um, and these like elements of ancient Chinese clothing that are coming back. And so this is a vest that I got at UniClo, China, and I don't know if you can see it. It has like these Chinese buttons, these like very like tang jacket Chinese buttons. And I think um I just wouldn't have thought anything of it before, but I was doing research about why these buttons came to be, and it's because um in Chinese sewing, as opposed to like Western sewing, there's much more of a culture of tearing clothes apart and remaking things out of them. Clothes are not so tightly fitted, and they are much more easily like messed with and repaired, which is why you have this style of button. Um, yeah, it like it's the proper thing. People might call it a um Mandarin jacket, but it's called a tang jacket. And it's like this little I don't know how to describe the style of button. I'm certainly going to have to figure this out if I'm gonna talk about it on a podcast. But basically, like it's external. You don't need to put a hole, you don't need a buttonhole. Like it's all external, it's really easy to like take off and put back on. I was like, oh, that's so brilliant. That's why the Chinese buttons are that way. And with the Western buttons, you basically have to like, you've made this beautiful garment, and then you have to risk totally messing it up by poking a hole in it, by like poking a series of holes in it. Um, and so it's this like reclamation of this alternative way of making garments that they had been doing in the 14th century that they then ditched because of Western imperialism, and now is like back at UniClo. And I was like, I have to buy these. I was like, I have to buy this jacket. Um, even though I don't think I would have called it like my style, especially if I had seen it in New York. I definitely would not have been drawn to it. So I just find myself, I mostly dress for the story. Like everything I wear, I kind of wear for the story. If you ask me what I'm wearing, I can tell you like everything has a little story behind it.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, I love this. And I also feel like when you're in this industry or in whatever way, you know, your travels or you know, the action runs that you're seeing, anything that you're exposed to, definitely like you start dressing for the plot for sure. Like it becomes like a souvenir in its way of that time and it like represents a moment for sure.

SPEAKER_04

Absolutely, absolutely. And it makes it so hard to part with anything, you know. You're like, it all they all mean something. When people talk to me about like, where do I find a plain shirt? Like, what? Why would you want to why would you want a plain shirt? I don't, I don't get it.

SPEAKER_01

That's so funny. I I love that you're talking about the button too, because you really do talk so much on the show about sort of not to me, but I would say to the general public, the more overlooked or invisible aspects of fashion, like care labels and zippers and uniforms and and technical garments. How do you get into the weeds with with these things and why are they so interesting to you? I mean, that's a great anecdote, right? Like to wonder why this kind of button. And for me, I think about the story that you're just telling. And I always think like, you know, in Eastern fashion, you have like more free sizes where things are just sort of made in one size, and in Western fashion, it's like, you know, size runs and things are a little bit more particular. But how, like, you know, when you start investigating, what what about these details is making the difference for you?

SPEAKER_04

Well, I always work on a lot of stories all at once, and I just have like a big document of everything that I'm thinking about. And I'm usually just kind of slowly collecting stuff. And I have to tell you, you know, I would say 70% of the time, I feel like I have no idea what I'm doing. I'm just calling people up, and I'm like, I don't know if this will turn into an episode. Like, I don't know what's here, or someone offers me whatever. Like I did a story on zippers, and that began because uh the YKK zipper factory reached out to me and uh they were like, Do you want to come see our factory? I was like, Yeah, yeah, totally. And I hopped on a train. I was like, it'll be really fun to take the train. I took a train down to Macon, Georgia, and was a little like, what am I doing here? What am I gonna do with this story? You know, how am I gonna turn this into a story? It's just kind of like slowly amassing these things. But like, for example, with that China story, like the story that I did in Beijing and Shanghai, I first like saw those girls dressed up and was like, is this a story? And I just went up and started talking to them, looking like an idiot because I don't speak Chinese. Like, uh sorry, sorry. And then I had to like tap a friend who speaks Chinese and be like, Will you come speak to me and like help me ask, you know, about ask these amazingly dressed women about their clothes. So like collected some tape and was like, I don't even know what I'm gonna do with this. I don't even know if this is a story, you know, just like started doing it. And I saw a store that like rented out those costumes, and I ran into that store and was like, what's up with, you know, just like slowly piecing together these things. But I was like, I don't know if this will become anything. So they sort of organically happen, but that's why they take so long, is because they just sort of they like roll out. I'm just working on maybe 12 at a time, and I'm just thinking about all of them and gathering information and talking to people. And then the the story truly tends to emerge organically. And I think why I focus on these small things like zippers and sizes and um buttons and care tags is that they're the most easy to relate to. Like you don't have to describe them that much. Everyone knows what they are. Um I think it's way harder to describe something that's like new or novel or something that someone has to uh truly imagine anew. That's why I don't really talk about, you know, couture or what the latest design is, because that's really hard to just conjure up in your own mind. You know, it's nice to stick to what's known. That's why this tends to be more of a history show. Even though one day I'd like to talk about what's new and cutting edge, that's just harder on the radio.

Labor And Exploitation In Clothing

SPEAKER_00

That makes a lot of sense too, because I I think that you bring attention to things that either people aren't thinking about um and are fascinating, or people really should be thinking about. And something else I really enjoy about your show is how you highlight labor and production. And what do you wish that people understood about the human stories behind their clothes? We touched on it earlier, but there's so much to say.

SPEAKER_04

Oh my God, such a good question. Yeah. I mean, that's that's the thing with clothing, right? Is it's such an amazing source of human connection and it's such an amazing source source of human exploitation. And this is why clothing has been so pivotal in global history is that it's such an easy industry that, like, all you need is a sewing machine. You don't need a big factory. Anyone can just enter this business in their homes, and they still do in every single country, all over the world. This is how like lots of mothers and like families. I mean, this is how America got its start as a manufacturing capital. This is this is like the seat of so many nations, it's the seat of so many families, is sewing and the sewing machine. Um, which is really interesting because we don't really think of like the home as a source of industrial labor, but it really is. Like this is sewing's legacy. And because it's so so quote unquote easy to do, I don't think sewing is easy to do, but it involves relatively less training, it involves relatively less equipment than, say, whatever, welding or any other trade, um, it's looser and it is harder to regulate. And that has always been the case, and it always has been rife for abuse from its very origins. Like you go to any clothing story far back enough, and then you're talking about slavery, just instantly, like in any country, especially this country, but most countries, you're like, you're talking about slavery, you're talking about exploitations and trade. Um, it just thrives because it's always been about trade, it's always been about getting the best deal, and it's always been about using labor, whether that's like farm labor to get cheap cotton or so stitch labor. And so that's the thing. It's this industry that we all need and we all love and we all adore, but it's just like baked into it is this is this cruelty. And nowadays we are so invested in like, how can I find ethical clothes? How can I find ethical clothes? And of course you can't, you know, you you you you you you can't unless someone really just made it for you out of love with cotton they grew. You know, it's just like there, it's it's it's embedded in the the way that clothing is is made and grown. But I don't know, that's the thing. There's no, I wish there was some easy line to be like, buy American or um, you know, buy organic or uh, you know, there are all these different things, they're all these different practices, or don't buy, you know, buy secondhand. They're all these different practices that people can lean on or turn to. And I don't think anyone is a silver bullet. I mean, the most important thing is to just stay like hyper aware, as I think you both are, of course, and to like know that this thing that we love and we need is has has a lot of a lot of pain in it too. And they can't and they can't really be separated. But it's something I reckon with, I I like am always wrestling with. And it's not just fast fashion, like I think about the people, you know, the burnout that's involved in high fashion and like the runway models who are getting paid nothing, you know, it's like at every step of it, it's like this weirdly cruel world. Um so that's why I also think it's fun to take a step back, and that's why I also like that this is a fashion show that's not about shopping. But I feel like there aren't enough options to just be like, I like clothes without thinking about what it means as a consumer. Because that's also an option people don't talk about. You can just enjoy it. You can like looking at it, you can like touching it. Um I mean, sure, you have to wear it, but um, it's okay to just talk about it and think about it without buying it.

SPEAKER_00

I really love that too. I, you know, what you were saying about slavery is so powerful. I was just reading uh this book that came out in 2025, The Permanence of Anti-Romani Racism Unuttered Sentences by Dr. Makareta Matake. And all my life, it's so good. Um I will send it to you. Thank you. Yeah, all my life I thought that uh sewing was a Romani survival trade in one way, but it turns out that sewing became a Romani survival trade in such a popular way because of slavery. And the 500 years that Roma were enslaved in present-day Romania, a lot of our trades that had, you know, were popular before that period in the late 1300s when it began were replaced by domestic staff work. And so there are a lot of lost trades, and then these are replaced through, I guess, what was demanded of the enslaved Roma. And then even after the emancipation, which just like in the US wasn't a real an emancipation, um, they were still expected to perform these jobs as like the only jobs that were okay for them to work. And I had no idea how much it channeled changed the landscape of our survival trades. And it was just mind-blowing. And the book wasn't just about that, but I was um, yeah, I was so moved where I was like, how did I not know this? And people are writing more about these things every day, which I'm I'm happy we're learning these stories.

SPEAKER_04

That's so interesting. May I ask, was it also um like legally mandated that Roma could only do certain professions?

SPEAKER_00

Um, good question. There was a lot of legal mandates around what Roma can't do.

SPEAKER_03

Sure.

SPEAKER_00

So it left a lot of like, you can do this or that.

SPEAKER_03

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00

It's interesting because fortune telling is one of those weird ones where it's been our survival trade for so long. And then we can trace how it has impacted culture by all of the legal mandates trying to control fortune telling because it, you know, it's too much our own personal power and insight. But yeah, yeah. And so I'm not sure about that one in particular. Um, but I also haven't finished the chapter.

SPEAKER_04

No, that's that's so interesting. Well, it's just like history is repeating, you know, it's it's over and over again. And you you saw this with like the with the Chinese Exclusion Act, right? It's like, oh, you can do laundries and you can open restaurants, you can do this feminized labor. We can't have you stealing manly jobs. Yeah over and over again. There's this, there's this sort of interesting idea that sewing is somehow female. This industrial work is somehow female. Um, and because of that, it's somehow okay. And also because of that, the factories don't have to be legitimate and it leads to like the triangle shirtwaist fire. Like it just has all these ramifications. The way that we have seen sewing culturally, and I say we, like it's like a global we. It's so interesting. Although I'm sure there's a culture out there that's like has a manly culture of sewing, which would be very interesting to find. But by and large, so many cultures like just see it as this feminized source of labor, therefore irrelevant. And like this is the source of all the cruelty. It's so nutty. I mean, that makes so much sense.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Actually, coincidentally, there's another Romani academic who writes a lot about feminized labor, especially in the fashion industry, Ethel Brooks. And there's a lot of overlap with how she sees fortune telling as well as feminized labor that has been, you know, condemned or brushed aside or exploitative in other ways. It's there's so many fascinating overlaps with anything that's feminized labor.

SPEAKER_04

Yes, yes, exactly. Exactly, exactly. I know, and it's like, I don't know. That's why I keep hoping every time there's a new rush of like guys who are into menswear, I'm like, maybe this will change it. Like maybe they'll maybe they'll be really into sewing. This will be great. They won't change it. Not gonna change international labor conditions, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00

We can try.

unknown

We can try.

Overproduction Anxiety And Tariff Reality

SPEAKER_01

I don't know. So I mean, we're in an interesting time now, right? Like we're we're definitely at a crux. Like the the system cannot support anymore. And I I think that the one of the largest fears that I have is overproduction and wastefulness. And and we all know it's a problem, but it's it's a problem that it's not sustainable, right? And I think that where what we're about to see unfolding in the world, you know, everyone that's that's not so much in tune might say, like, oh, that's not that's not political or this isn't political. And it's like, actually, this is extremely, extremely political. Let's, you know, talking about tariffs. I've talked about tariffs my entire career. Now we're watching them unfold. I have a personal opinion that we have hit a point of, you know, it we just can't support this system anymore, right? And I think that there will be a course correction just because of the way that the world is working. We won't be able to have the kind of over-influx of goods coming into the country anymore. It might slow things down with the fast fashion system, especially in North America. Even going back to what I was saying about Dana Thomas, you know, maybe in the past 20 years we're seeing mass production lines and collections in America that we didn't really see before that. I'm curious, in your personal opinion, if you also feel like we might experience a slowdown, not one that we've chosen for ethical reasons, but one that maybe Mother Nature is is bringing onto us. And if you think that there's a little bit of hope and optimism in that, and in turn, we might see some better production coming out of this country as well.

SPEAKER_04

I don't know, your face is not that I mean I hope so. I don't know. I don't know. It's it's just like I mean the thing that saddens me is like I feel like our best hope is more major retailers going out of business, which like oh they're doing a great job of that here.

SPEAKER_01

Exactly. The problem is investors won't let them die, which I that's the part I don't understand.

SPEAKER_04

And that that's the thing, like I don't know. It's just I um I went into a store the other day, like a big department store, just like you know, wandering around Manhattan. And I'm sure you feel the same way, like, you know, seeing the world the way you do. You like just look around the main streets and you're like, man, everything is closed. There's so many clothes, like, where are we all gonna go? And I was just looking at this mega, mega sale and like looking at these racks and racks of clothes. And it did just make me feel like all my little concern about, oh, what am I gonna do with like my one sweater that I don't want anymore? Let me get it cleaned and patched so that I can like sell it to, you know, sell it to the thrift store for a good price. Like, what am I doing? I'm fighting the ocean with a little paper cup. Like, this thing is so huge. And sure, so many more people are so much more enlightened about the piles of burning clothes in the middle of the deserts of South America. But I mean, the reality of it is like times are really rough, and we can't ask people to pay they want they want cheap clothes, which makes like it's it's a yeah, it's a it's a terrible cycle. Like the less people make and the tougher times are, the less they can afford, and the more they want cheap luxuries. If only we were able to have whatever affordability for everybody, maybe they could afford better clothes. But I don't know, the bet the wor best slash worst example that I came across, and this will haunt me forever. And this was the moment that I was like, Oh, our goose is so cooked. I don't know if anything will ever change. Um, this was a secret that someone told me, so I'm gonna keep them super duper anonymous, but they work for a big company and they were telling me about how um upcycling is in and how everyone wants to wear things that were like used to be trash. And they were telling me that their company is making plastic bottles that they are then recycling into sweaters.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, I wish I could say that. I wish I could tell you that's the worst thing that I've heard, but it's not.

SPEAKER_04

Oh no, I bet you did way, way worse. And I was just like, I was like, our goose is so cooked. Like that's your sustain, that's your trendiness. The the trend for sustainability translates to on a mass scale. Like, I I just don't have a lot. I mean, I'm amazed that you have you seem to have hope. I please bring a little piece of hope.

SPEAKER_01

Oh my gosh. I wanna, I'm gonna give you a mirror to that situation that maybe might give you a little bit of hope. There's a lot. Are you familiar with dead stock materials? Yes. So when you go in factories, just for listeners, if you know, if if large runs of product have been done, there are often yardage, fabric yardages that are left over that's not enough to make more product in a significant way. So there's just a lot of this like dead material that sits in in factories for a long period of time. There are so many fabulous individuals and organizations that have really started selling these materials, sourcing and selling these materials in a real way, not in a way that's, you know, we're gonna import them to the US and And re-export them somewhere else, which would defeat the entire purpose. But there, there are so many people that are doing the right thing. And they're also connecting with smaller designers. The thing that I worry about when you're talking about the departments, for example, which I worked for the worst one in America for the last eight years of my corporate career. Everyone knows who that is. So every time I read about them in the news, especially recently, I'm like, this is the longest, like slowest death of all time. But I will say the thing that I worry about the most is not so much the mass production, but the smaller American designers, the people that are the last to be paid when these companies go out of business. Um, you know, those are the things that I am the most challenged with. Um, but I I do have hope that Mother Nature is slowing us down in terms of how much there will be available to us and that we will, you know, for a lot of people, their brains will be retrained out of Amazon Prime mode into slower, better, you know, less, those sorts of things and really investing in that way. But that's not overnight, you know. So we we need to kind of teach people, retrain them in a way.

SPEAKER_04

Did you think the tariffs helped a little bit?

SPEAKER_01

No, I don't think anything. I I I've I um I struggle with the that because I don't think that the people that most needed to learn from that situation still understand what tariffs.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Or or why they should not, you know, why they've been paying for them historically, but should not be paying any more for them and why it's a challenge. I I don't know, I could talk about tariffs for hours, but it it's one of those things where I don't think it's that. I I think that that the incredible discrepancy that they'll see when there's no longer five dollar t-shirts available, which should not have been available to them in the first place, and they go to a normal price, and then we start to have bigger conversations that are long overdue. So yeah, that's what I'm hoping is is is going to happen.

SPEAKER_04

Okay. I I pray, I pray, I pray, I pray. I just I don't know. I just yeah, I feel like we can show people over and over again where it comes from and it doesn't it doesn't sink in because it goes back to the fundamental problem that's baked into cruelt the cruelty of clothing, which is valuing other people's time and valuing like the labor of people who live in another country and don't speak your language, or even who live in your country, maybe and don't speak your language. Like it's just that's the thing. It's like, well, would you how much would you be paid to make this shirt? Like it's this empathy game that we've been losing forever. I don't know. It's it's really funny. I feel like we can just show the same footage over and over again of like this is what a factory looks like, and people won't can't see it. Because it's hard, it's hard to look at.

SPEAKER_01

It it is hard to look at, and I think that the the connection goes back to this question of do you understand that a robot did not make it?

SPEAKER_04

Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_01

And and and I think that that's important. And I think I think that that's you know, you can show people the waste on the beach, and you can they're not going to feel bad, but they do need to understand somehow that that where the things were made, how they were made, and and and that's the missing piece that we're gonna cover on my television shows.

SPEAKER_04

Yes.

SPEAKER_03

I'll watch, I'll watch.

SPEAKER_04

I'm oh my god, I want to nerd out with you about tariffs. I want to know everything you think. I know that's not what this is about. We'll we'll take it off.

SPEAKER_03

We're taking it. Okay, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_04

I want to know everything you think about tariffs. Because I'm working on a story about tariffs. Um, so it's selfishly for my own, my own ends.

SPEAKER_01

You know, I I think that the the other thing I'll say is because you're asking about that, and people will say, Jessica's a stylist, she's a trend forecaster, she does this. But the that's where we come back to this, right? Is all of these parts of the process are very much holding hands, nothing separate from anything that that that's a different part of the garment, right? So I often say, like in trend forecasting, one of the uh the advantages that I have is I know what kind of machines make certain things. So if a trend happens, like circle bags, right? That's an expensive piece of machinery to have. That's something that you won't see in the mass market because a lot of those factories don't have that kind of machinery. So that will be a mid-level trend. But that that's sort of it, right? When you talk about the tariffs, when you talk about the fabrications, all of this, everything's holding hands so intricately. So, yes, even the trend forecasting stylist has to know about tariffs.

Fashion Signals History In Plain Sight

SPEAKER_04

It's so interesting. And that's the thing. That's the thing. That's the thing. Like when I, because you know, I wasn't, I didn't decide to when I started in podcasting, I was working for this podcast about architecture. And then after a while, I was like, oh, you know, why don't we talk about fashion in the same way that we talk about architecture? But it wasn't, it was never my plan to get into fashion. And I was a little scared when I first got into it because I thought it was gonna be a really scary world that everyone was gonna be like zoomander, and it's full of it's full of people like you, Jessica. It's like full of nerds, you know, it's full of people who are really, really passionate and really, really well versed in the world and like extremely well-rounded. And I had no idea. I was so quick to write off fashion as just clothing and not a reflection of every single thing that's going on in society at a given moment. And that's the thing that really annoys me about so much of the discourse around fashion. Like I was just asked the other day to comment on a radio show. They were like, they emailed me and they were like, We just heard this statistic that skirt lengths shift every 40 years. It's like you just heard that. But also, I hate this sort of rhetoric around trends that they almost cycle automatically. Like it doesn't, that there's no human mechanism behind them. There's no politics, there's no supply chain. There's it just makes it sound like fashion is this wild swinging pendulum that's doing its own thing in a vacuum, is the way we talk about it. And it's not true that skirt lengths just like rise and fall on their own naturally, inevitably, is a matter of time. It's because human history keeps repeating itself every 30 years. It's because like our tastes change, you know, our change, our tastes cycle back every generation. And I just think like therein lies the problem with fashion is we talk about it in a disconnected way. Like, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I I think that you're saying something that's really important too, which so many people think fashion and they're thinking about luxury and they're thinking about something that's on high, where I never wanted to be in that part of the pyramid, right? I don't want to sit at the top. I I like the middle, right? I love mass commercial fashion. I love talking about style and trends in a way that I have to be able, I know that I really know it and that someone really knows it if they can repeat it back to me. And it is such a reflection of where we are in any period of time. And that's and it's just so it's so much more interesting to be in that space and to say to people, you know, fashion is not uh, it's not snobby, it's not something that's like outside of you. You are participating in it. I mean, the cerulean blue speech that is said in the Devil Wars Prada, it's so good for a reason because it's so goddamn true. Like you think it has nothing to do with you, but it it's it has everything to do with you. It has everything to do with politics, has everything to do with culture, it has all of these cycles are repeating, like you said, because humanity repeats certain cycles. So it's it's fascinating to me. I I yeah, as you can see, I'm very passionate about it.

SPEAKER_04

I love it. I love it. My my favorite, favorite example of like the way that fashion matters is there's this great website where um you can look at different photographs of um it's like it randomly shuffles real photographs from history, and it will show one to you, and you have to guess the time period that the photograph was taken from. And it really shows you how much you're just looking at the clothes. Like you're looking at the cars a little bit, but you're like, oh, like maybe a little bit you're looking at the buildings, but you're really looking at the clothes, and that's how you're trying to guess what era these people live in. And these are not like trendy people, they're just normal people, and you can like tell what era they're living in by their clothes. It's called um photochroma dot app. Photochroma? Photochroma. But it's it's actually it's actually a really hard game. It's a really hard game, but it's like that's the thing I always tell people is like this is how you know, this is how you know you you can't no one's just wearing the same clothes all their lives. Like everybody is changing with their time. You're like, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And to that too, I I would also say we had someone on the show once where we talked about vintage clothing, and it's such a psychological game. If you thrift or shop vintage, what era you're attracted to, whether it's consistently or at any given time, right? Like, yeah, like I'm an 80s bitch. Like I want it big, I want it sort of like like clearly, right? But like there's something to be said too, like the 80s, like the money, the like glamour, like all of these things maybe that were lacking in the in this time period where we're like in a beige era for sure, in in in fashion. But yeah, I like that it has like a nice correlation to your website.

Modesty And The Meaning Of Beauty

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, totally. That's so funny. I have to listen to that episode.

SPEAKER_00

I'm also really fascinated about how you covered clergy fashion on the show, spiritual tradition, clothing, robes, veils, adornment as a way to mark transformation or devotion. I was wondering if you saw parallels in contemporary fashion. I mean, we're going deep, and I'm wondering if you see these transformative um trends or garments that people use in this way, even if it's not strictly religious.

SPEAKER_04

That's such a good question. Yeah, I think about these a lot. I worked on a story about modesty, and I realized, you know, like everything I do, you know, because you asked that great question earlier about like how does this impact my style. I kind of start dressing like every story I do. And I've started dressing really modestly ever since doing that modesty story. Cause I like I get it now. I think modesty is really beautiful. And I also know modesty has its problems and a lot of modest culture. Like, I'm not trying to put modesty on a pedestal. Like, and I I examine three different cultures Judaism, my own culture, um, Islamic modesty and Mormon modesty. And they all have their own problems. Like they all have problems. Like they're not the right way, but uh no way is the right way. Um, but I just was like understanding where modesty was coming from and like looking at the texts from the Bible and the Quran that's that these dictums came from and how they've been changed over time. And you know, the fascinating thing is since that story came out, the Mormon church has changed a lot. Like they now allow sleeveless garments, which means you can like women can wear sleeveless shirts. And so many women in the Mormon church were like, What?

SPEAKER_01

Well, they have two two reality shows now.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, exactly. Well, that was really I talked to so many Mormons who were like, fuck this. You told me my whole life that I was a slut if I didn't if I wore sleeveless shirts, and then overnight you changed it. I thought this was from God, and it was from what? And so like I know a bunch of people who left, like who left the church because of this. Like these are really, really, really, really, really powerful. Um and obviously it was like people were like Masa Aminy was murdered over modesty. Like these are these are huge deals, like these really, really matter. What is considered, you know, modest or appropriate or proper, especially as like a woman in polite society. Um, and yet I still like love it and I get it for myself. Um but I think the one that really resonated with me the most was talking to Catholic priests about what they wear, because it really made no sense to me that these men who had taken these vows of poverty and chastity just like dress so swaggy, they dress so fancy. Their garments are so expensive. Like a chazable can cost up to 20 grand. They are so lavish. And of course, my immediate thought was like, you know, what like on the outside, of course, to me as an outsider, I was like, this feels kind of corrupt, this feels kind of wrong. Like, why would God care? Why should anybody care? It's all the same problems. Like, I was levying all of the same criticisms that someone who doesn't care about fashion would say to me, right? Like, why is it so expensive? Why does anybody care? Isn't it the wrong values? And so it was really interesting to suddenly be the one being so critical of fashion. Um, and it was really beautiful talking to these priests and these monks from like lots of different sects of Catholicism, talking about like how beautiful it is to adorn ourselves and how it is a way to like express holiness and what it means to be alive, even on this like fleeting mortal coil. It was very existential, and it made me realize you know, I think I vacillate back and forth as we've been talking. I vacillate back and forth between like the stuff is silly, it doesn't really matter. And then talking to these priests, I'm like, oh, it does, it is like beauty does matter. Like beauty, beauty is significant, like real beauty is significant. And this gets right back to what you're saying in the very beginning, Jessica, about like valuing the handmade and valuing craft. Like, this is why the priests wear such expensive robes. They're like lovingly handcrafted by the most ethical factories you can possibly imagine living by their Christian values. You know, everyone gets like a free lunch, and you know, I met them, they're all super nice, they're they're functionally living in a monastery, and it's the way a lot of the monks keep themselves alive. And it like made the fashion make sense. So like we're extolling the goodness of reality in everything we do, including the clothes. I was like, what a beautiful way to dress, you know, if only if I could afford it, if we all could afford it, wouldn't we love to extol the beauty of life in everything we do? But it provides this like beautiful ideal, and it gave me something to reach for, not to dress as a priest, but to dress in the mindset of a priest, where it's not about the clothes, but it's about the message that they send and how they're made and what they represent. And they really enjoy them. The priests love their clothes.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, I'm kind of dying right now. I'm I'm I'm Catholic and I've been to holy sites, and every time you go, there's a significant shopping area. And I was in Fatima last summer and I brought a friend, and you know, there is a store. I mean, you talk about the swag, the priest swag, like oh yeah, garments in this store. My friend is like, what the hell? And I'm like, but I kind of thought about you for a second, right? Like you're in China and you're like in Uniqlo, and you're like, I want to remember this moment that I had when I saw this thing. And I remember like I think about these priests, and they're like, I went to Fatima like on a pilgrimage, and like, here's my outfit that I bought this thing.

SPEAKER_04

I the one hunt they love, they love it. They do, yeah, they love it. And they're like, check this out, and it was so funny. I talked to this, like, kind of fame Father John Martin, he's kind of famous, and he was like, Look at this, like, oh my god, you know, they're like they're like literally coming out, arms raised, like swag. Well, there's this great moment that I loved because I went to I'd never been to Mass before. It was also really fun as like an outsider. I was like, This is amazing, you know, the smells and bells, uh, as all the priests called them. So witchy, yeah. So it was great. And at one point, this famous priest, John Martin, was like swinging the incense, and he turned to me and he gave me a wink and he said, I wore something special for you.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, I love I'm so charmed.

SPEAKER_04

I I loved it. I loved it so much. I loved it so much. And they were also really like, I don't know, they were like, Yeah, you can try stuff on. I thought it was gonna be, and that was the other thing is that they weren't like, no, you can't touch the garments, you can't try them on. You know, you're a woman, you're not Catholic, but none of that. They were like, Yeah, try it on, you know, like put on the hat, put on, like, do whatever. It was this like level of openness that I don't think I was expecting. And I think I feel that in every country, culture, religion that I've encountered, especially when you go through clothes. Like, I don't know, there's like this invite, there's like trying on. Like, obviously, not in a cultural, no one's like, go take, you know, go do whatever you want with yeah, you're not like trying them on in the in the priest store and like pretending anything. Yeah, exactly. But just like in the moment, though, there's this very welcoming attitude. And I think you know, you're literally walking in their shoes, which is the fun thing about um about talking about clothes. You you get to like try on someone else's life. So now I'm like, I'm like obsessed with Catholicism now.

SPEAKER_01

We can add that on the list of things we can talk about. I'll talk, I'll talk about Catholicism with you all day.

SPEAKER_04

What a religion.

SPEAKER_01

What it's it's very fancy. It there's a lot of things. Yeah, there's there's a lot happening there.

SPEAKER_04

It's it's so great. I really, I really love it.

Self Care For Perpetual Creators

SPEAKER_01

Oh my gosh, I love this. Um we love to just indulge our guests a little bit. You know, they're doing such amazing work, you're bringing all of these stories to the public and and really delving into what's happening in in the fashion industry. When you step away from that and you step away from your work and you're taking care of Avery, what are the self-care practices that you most often turn to and why?

SPEAKER_04

Ooh. Well, I love to nap. I'm a really big napper. I attend a nap once a day. I'm really good at it. Like I can nap for like five minutes and feel refreshed. Um, I can nap almost anywhere. I'm like amazing at it. Um, I would say that's my primary self-care practice is taking a nap. Like, really, sometimes I'll just set a timer for five minutes and take a little snooze. Um Yeah. That's my biggest one. I mean, that's you know, that's the hard thing when they're like, do something you love and you never work a day in your life. Like, I'm sort of working all the time, which is to say, like, it's all stuff I love to do. I'm always reading, I'm always writing, I'm always talking. It's an amazing way to live. Um, and I wouldn't trade it for anything. I'm like super lucky, but I feel like, you know, that's what I enjoy doing. My my ways out of it are like taking a long walk or taking a nap or like just tuning out, you know. I wish I had some other weird hobby. I wish I could be like, yeah, I'm a harpist, but I'm not. I don't, this is kind of what I do.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, being a harpist is very cool. But you know what's interesting is that we have spoken to so many different people in the fashion industry, spiritual industry, and it kind of doesn't matter if you're like a high priestess or if you're in the fashion game. A lot of times people's self-care is like intentionally simple restorative things like naps and walks. Those are the things that we do for ourselves. They regulate our nervous system. And even for the like highly magical people who we talk to who do exorcisms, they're like, really, I just need to drink a glass of water and like take a few deep breaths and have a really good night's sleep. And I just I really love that because I think this is a this is a beautiful red thread that we've been finding. And the simple things matter, sleep matters, going outside matters.

SPEAKER_04

Do you do you do you nap?

SPEAKER_00

I have been trying to get I've been trying to get more into napping because I'm not a great night sleeper. And then I have an alter ego night jazz that does things that I I'm not always aware of until day jazz takes over. And so I'm trying to trying to nap more. But yeah, napping is glorious. I napped on Sunday and it was profound.

SPEAKER_04

Napping, napping rules, and I do feel like it frees you up in the night. You're like, I don't know, I can stay up later, I can wake up earlier. Like, time, it does the the time for sleeping doesn't feel so precious. If I'm like, whatever, I'll make up for it later. Like I'll sleep in the day. Um Thomas Edison, you know, problematic guy, whatever. He is a hero of mine just for his naps. Like he would nap all the time. There are these amazing photographs of him. Just like napping on the um floor of his factory. He would just pass out. And he because that's his thing. He'd be like, I'd stay up all night working, and then I can just nap whenever I want. It like changes the day.

SPEAKER_00

That's so funny. I had no idea.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, and I feel like it's an alternative to the people who are like, I've got my routine and my schedule, and that's what I do. I feel like the nap is like that's my key. Sometimes I wake up at this time, sometimes I wake up at that time. Doesn't matter. Got a nap.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Sometimes you have to power it down. And that's beautiful.

SPEAKER_01

It's a very anti-establishment to nap like.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

It's very punk.

SPEAKER_04

Thanks. Thanks. I used to be so against it. I used to be like, I'll nap when I'm dead. And look at me now.

SPEAKER_00

You're rested and hydrated.

SPEAKER_04

Well, that I need to work on. I'll work on that.

SPEAKER_00

What do you have coming up on the horizon that you can share about for people to stay tuned?

SPEAKER_04

Thank you for asking. Well, I'm working on a book and that, but that won't be out for a while. And, you know, always always making more podcasts. Um they're like coming out at a monthly cadence now, which is nice. That's like a really nice, nice cadence for me. Yeah, it's a good flow. It's a good it's a good flow. I would say it takes about like a month for me to make them in the way that I like. So this is this is very nice for me. This is like a treat.

SPEAKER_01

Love. And how can people best find you and support your work?

SPEAKER_04

Um You're so generous with your questions. I have a Substack. That's a well, it's also nice because then I'll tell you because my episodes come out so sporadically, that's when I'll tell you if I have an episode up and it has um different like links and uh images and stuff. So that's articlesofinterest.substack.com.

SPEAKER_00

Awesome. Yeah, I highly recommend. I like your Substack. I just discovered it and I'm like, oh yes, thank goodness. Uh well, thank you so much for having this or making this time to speak with us. We really appreciated you having on the show.

SPEAKER_04

This was fantastic.

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SPEAKER_00

It was like a it was like a nap in the best way. I feel restored. Like a really fun, weird dream. Thank you. Thank you so much for joining us in the immaterial world. While you're here, we hope you subscribe, rate, and review us on your favorite streaming services. The real magic is in connection and community. Share your favorite episode with friends and come follow us for more on Instagram at Immaterial World Pod and Patreon at patreon.com backslash immaterial world.

SPEAKER_02

Come eat me in the material in the material material. Come beat me in the egg material. Divide your body and stuff, divide it in the material. The material. The it material.

SPEAKER_01

Immaterial World is hosted by Jessica Richards and Jasmina Fonkilla. Music and editing by Dia Luna. Artwork by Lane Frent. Follow Immaterial World Pod on Instagram and Patreon at patreon.com backslash Immaterial World. You can visit our website at www.immaterial-world.com or email us at ImmaterialWorldPod at gmail.com Thank you for being part of our Immaterial World.

SPEAKER_00

Welcome to the Immaterial World.