The Inspection Report
Montana's premiere property consultants joined by exceptionally knowledgable and locally relevant trade professionals to discuss all things construction, investing, and maintenance in the Treasure State.
The Inspection Report
Radon Testing & Mitigation - Advanced Radon Mitigation
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Joel Beaudette of Advanced Radon Mitigation joins the podcast for a deep dive into modern radon testing and mitigation strategies for Montana real estate.
Hello and welcome to the Inspection Report. This is episode one of season two after a bit of a break from us. I am your host, Jed Deal, Certified Master Inspector, joined as always by Tim Netzley, Certified Master Electrician and Master Inspector. If you have been listening, last season we brought on Jen Thorne with Safe Home Environmental and we did a kind of a broad overview of testing services as they relate to the real estate transaction. But today we're bringing on a special guest to kind of drill down on radon testing and mitigation specifically. So today we're joined by Joel Baudette with Radon, Advanced Radon Mitigation. Thanks for joining us, Joel. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, so to get a baseline knowledge for people who might not be really aware of what we're talking about today, what is radon and why do we even care to test for it in our houses?
SPEAKER_00I mean, radon is a naturally occurring gas that comes from the breakdown of uranium in the earth, or you know, so it seeps its way up through the ground and you know, it obviously it's everywhere, but it dilutes when it's not inside your house. But then you have a structure, you know, it doesn't matter if it's a crawl space or a slab on grade or a basement. You know, there I'm sure there are some mobile homes that get skirted well enough in the wintertime if they're in a you know high enough radon area where they're gonna have it inside their, you know, their mobile home. So um yeah, it's uh it's a radioactive gas that that floats basically in the air and it decomposes or um what is the word I'm trying to look for? It decays and then it releases an alpha particle that if you gotta breathe that into your lungs and it hits you know a blood cell, if it kills the cell, you're good. But if it wounds a cell and it goes to try to heal and it festers in your lungs, that's what can lead to a cancerous state.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so that's the risk. And the and the EPA claims that the it's the second leading cause of lung cancer, right? For that reason. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02There's actually an argument that the first leading cause being smoking is potentially in part, at least that radon is in the tobacco leaves. Yeah. No, I don't know if that's I don't know how well it's it was a study and they're they're they're leading, they're lending credibility to the idea anyway.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, I know you know if you are or were a smoker, you know, that drastically increases your chances to for something to happen. But you know, radon is a you know amount that you're exposed to over how much time you spend in your house. So, you know, most people I would say average at least 10 hours a day. You know, eight of those are sleeping, so you can never fully get away from it, but um yeah, it's not it's pervasive.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's there's a misnomer out there about different types of foundations having less or more of an issue. Um if you seal it right, which it most of the time isn't isn't happening, then then a a slab foundation can be less of an issue. Is that true?
SPEAKER_00I I would say a slab over a crawl space, yes, just because that you know that air's not trying to force its way through concrete, which is always porous, and then you know, there are cold joints along the slab and foundation for settling and movement that um if the basement's not finished, I will seal and everything, and it, you know, um that will help everything. But if you have a crawl space and it's at least half of the square footage of your property, and then you have a basement, you know, I'll you have to start with a crawl space because that's uninterrupted soil, right? You know, that's air that's coming into your house, and once it's in your house, it's follows stack effect or you know, wherever that that your furnace is recirculating air, you know, yeah, wherever it that's drawing air from, it just kind of pushes it around your house. So sure. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And we know from our our work in the building codes consultative uh side that vapor barriers under cross me, vapor barriers under slabs, whether being on grade or basements, is a fairly new thing. Yeah. And in m many parts of Montana, they're not if they're not if they're installed at all, they're not installed correctly. So under the slab? Under the slab, in the crawl space, yeah, at all. But uh under the slab especially, they get neglected.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I I wish that was a standard to have even a six mil under under a slab of anything, any sort. I mean it.
SPEAKER_02It is a standard on a slab on grade. Okay, but uh it's not because Montana is so spread out as it is and they don't have a residential oversight of the building codes, it doesn't happen in a lot of places.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And yeah. And it and it's not necessarily that the contractor is uh trying to get away with something, but there's there's just a lack of education a lot of times. When there is no oversight, then there's no reason to stay up on the codes that are updating every three years. And if they are consistently working in areas where there is no oversight, then they're never gonna know the difference.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, vapor barrier in a crawl space is you know, it's there just to stop the moisture that's coming up from the open soil before it hits the underside of your subfloor, basically.
SPEAKER_02So um but remaining intact, it has a secondary effect of of stopping some of that radon, wouldn't you say?
SPEAKER_00If it's not sealed, no.
SPEAKER_02If it's not sealed, but if it does remain intact and is sealed.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, you know.
SPEAKER_02Otherwise, every penetration through that floor you're saying is correct.
SPEAKER_01Is a a leakage point. Yep.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So naturally occurring, but becomes an issue when it gets into concentrated levels within our within our homes, uh, slabs, basements, crawl spaces, even mobile homes in certain cases can be susceptible potentially. Um so what what is a mitigation system then doing to help well mitigate the risk that that's associated with radon?
SPEAKER_00So under a slab, you know, you're taking that positive pressure that's being forced up from the ground, and you know, you drill at least one suction point, you know, depending on the square footage of the basement or the the house that's on uh slab on grade, you know, you could potentially need two. And you know, knowing, you know, when the house was built is great because it, you know, here I would say after the 2000s, there's some standards that have changed. And then um, you know, if if I always ask people if they have blueprints, because it's nice to know what type of uh foundational supports are under any type of slab. Um but yeah, it's uh you're trying to take that positive pressure and you want it to be a negative pressure, so you know you're stopping that air being forced up into your house, and then it will lower the radon and it it it kind of lowers the pressure plane in your house, but you know, if if everything's sealed, then it's just affecting under the slab.
SPEAKER_01Right, right. Going back to kind of the different types of foundations or construction styles that you might find. I've I've always when clients call and they're you know asking us what you know how how worried should I be about radon for this particular house, or um, you know, do are there types of construction that may be less susceptible? The the only thing that I've ever mentioned was the possibility of manufactured or mobile homes, as you know, if if that underfloor space is very well ventilated or the or the um skirting is you know as leaky as it normally is, then that that may be the only type of construction where I might dial back the the level of concern a little bit.
SPEAKER_00For radon mitigation, yeah. And that was it definitely, you know, I haven't I haven't seen any mobile homes that are skirted that are high, but you know, there are certain areas in Missoula and surrounding the surrounding areas that are kind of like radon hot spots where the level is the average of the level is a lot higher than you know you know the main majority of Missoula Valley is at a constant, I would say four to ten. And then there are some areas where you get in it, I mean some people don't know that it gets into the hundreds.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So um any any level of radon, you want it to be, you know, uh as less as possible. So even if you're hovering right at four, I mean if if it's if it's a concern to you, you know, you can still do something about it.
SPEAKER_02And you know, the yeah, we we've seen I think the highest we've seen is in the 50s, high 50s, 58, I think it was. But outside of Hamilton. Okay. Um but I have a friend who's a realtor and they had a house that was open to tunnels underneath Missoula. And it was I don't remember the number, but it was over a hundred. Oh wow, they had to seal off those tunnels and seal the basement and all that.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, no, I've done slab houses that are I would say 150 was the highest that we tested at. And then uh a couple crawl spaces that were in the one 160s. So, you know, stuff like that, especially in a crawl space, you want to, you know, take your time. And like I said, it's all about that vapor barrier sealed, so you're trying to meet resistance under the vapor barrier, kind of like what you're doing under a slab. You know, you know, there are 10 different sizes of radon fans that handle basically cubic feet per minute of air volume. Um, some of them have a higher suction, but you know, you don't want those fans to be running at full power without meeting resistance, because then that makeup air has to come from somewhere. And if your house is if it's if it's tight, you know, you're paying conditioned, you're paying for that conditioned air to potentially be sucked out of your house, you know, while you're getting rid of potentially radon levels, you know, you're paying for it on a different end.
SPEAKER_01So yeah. Yeah, so real really no no real situation where somebody who is concerned about radon when uh looking at purchasing a house, they they shouldn't, they shouldn't test. Yes. Right? Yes. Now what what if uh what if a mitigation is just a mitigation system is already present? Did you still recommend testing?
SPEAKER_00100%. Why is that? Uh I mean, they're so summer months are lower in radon levels than winter months, and you know, they're even for even for systems that we've done, you know, we're a huge proponent of people having a homeowner's continuous radar monitor of some sort, you know, digital or one that sends you hourly breakdowns to like an app on your phone. So, you know, you can do a system in the summertime, the numbers can come back great. And then, you know, if you don't have some way of knowing what your levels are when your house fluctuates up in the wintertime, and you know, it's always a continuous change. Um, you know, that fan might be okay in the summertime, but maybe it's just not quite powerful enough in the wintertime for you know, if your average levels double, you know. Right.
SPEAKER_01Um is that does that just come down to how we're living in the houses seasonally around here? We we where uh things are more buttoned up in the winter.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. You know, this winter people have been able to, you know, keep their windows open, which is called burping your house, which is what winter?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So like for someone like me, you know, I have a crawl space and a basement. I have one fan that does both areas, and um, but we don't have a furnace or anything, it's all boiler baseboard heat. So we try to keep our windows open or burp our house at least once a day when you can, just for just for air exchanges and dilution. Um yeah, I mean, every house is different. You know, that's why we come out and you know, we'll look at every house, just because you try to formulate the best plan that works for, you know, potentially the a seller or a buyer if it's in a real estate transaction, or the the the homeowner, you know.
SPEAKER_02Well, along the lines of why it's important, even if there is a mitigation system present to do the testing. We we were talking off camera a little bit about how much of the installations around here have not been to the standards. Uh one of the reasons we were so anxious to have you on is because you're the only company actually we knew that we know about and I that actually does perform the installations to the standards. Because in the inspection world we come across systems all the time that are uh installed wrong and can actually create a more unsafe environment, like a fan bar in a basement or in a in in a space where that air can communicate to the living spaces. Yeah. So talk about, if you would, the the standards, the minimum standards, why they're important and how hard it is to adhere to that in the short time frame of a real estate transaction.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I mean for the install portion, adhering to the standards is is pretty simple. Um the standards are from the National Radon Proficiency Program, the NRPP. Um, you know, just a couple quick oversights are your fan can't be in a livable space. So not in the basement, not in a crawl space. It can, you know, your piping and an exhaust chase can bump out into a garage, where if the garage doesn't have a livable space, it can be in the garage or it can be in the attic above the garage. Or other than that, it has to be, you know, an exterior mounted fan if you can't find a way to run it, you know, run your piping through the house and keep everything internal. So that I would say that's probably one of the biggest ones that I come across. And then outside your house, you know, it has to be above the roof line, or if you can't maintain five feet from a window and five feet off the ground, or sorry, ten feet from a window and ten feet off the ground, you know, if you can achieve those, then it can exhaust. It doesn't have to go above the roof line. But that's you know, that that is a standard that just changed within, oh, I just took my standards. That was last year in 2024, 20 2025. Um, but it even now it's maybe less than 5% of the houses that can you know achieve that. So most of the time that exhaust has to be a foot above the roof line just so you don't get any reentrainment of radon that's you know just gets pushed around by the outside environment. Right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01With with fan placement, um so what's what's the risk of the the fan being down in a crawl space or in a basement?
SPEAKER_00So everything above that fan is, you know, like we briefly talked about there are different levels of fan power and fan strength. You know, that everything above that fan is air that's being, you know, pretty violently pushed. I mean, the smallest fan starts at about 150 CFM per minute, which is, you know, you're moving some good air. Um, but yeah, if there's any leaks or cracks or any damages to the system, you know, that's air that will be flooded back into your house, basically. So you try to keep it, you know, in the attic where you're getting stack effect and all that air is just being pushed out the the ridge of the roof, anyways, or you know, you know, outside a house where if there's you know any leaks, it just gets diluted by fresh air.
SPEAKER_01Right. Yeah. All right. So I do want to bring it back to testing procedures a little bit. Um, so you guys do both mitigation and testing. Um, but inevitably you're you're brought onto jobs where a home inspector or another another third-party tester has performed a test and now you're being asked to give a bid for mitigation. What do what do you consider is a valid test? What are you looking for?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. When I actually get to look at a test, you know, you look number one, it has to be for 48 hours or two days. I mean, minimum. It it can't be shorter than that, it can be longer than that. And the longer the test, the more data you get. And so that's always valuable. Um, you know, people that offer the measurement portion of it, they don't have to be certified, but they should use, you know, the right equipment. So you have to have a type of continuous radar monitor that measures hourly. Um, there are some that measure shorter, but it's, you know, you just you don't quite need a reading every 15 minutes. One reading every hour is more than plenty. Um, and then you know, you you should actually look at the look at the test. There's been a couple tests that a homeowner's shown me, and um I think the one that really jumps off at me, it was a test that was done during inspection. So it was, you know, only five hours or so. And then once you looked at it, the average was I'm gonna say 12, but there was one number that was in like 100, and then the rest of them were right around 10 to you know 15 or whatever.
SPEAKER_02So it was only for the duration of the inspection.
SPEAKER_00Wow. And so you you know, that anomaly spike, it would cause me to potentially retest just to make sure. And right, you know, we've had some tests that uh they just didn't seem like they tested right, and then when I come back and set another test, I will do a performance test, which is you know, put a secondary monitor next to next to the one that I use just to make sure that they're reading right and they should be within 20% of each other. Right.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So when we do radon testing, we we definitely do the 48 48 hours, and we're using sun radon uh uh testing equipment and and sending it in for calibration and going through that process. Yeah. Um but we we're also sending kind of uh a procedural request, if you will, to the sellers or the current owners. That's you know, we don't we don't expect you to lock yourselves in your home or or not or not enter your home, but uh as much as they can limit it to just entering and exiting and not leaving doors and windows open for extended periods of time, that can be challenging to hold people to. And it's not like we're they love it in the summer when there's no air conditioning. It is that's right.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and we've had many people where it's been in the summer and um the actual mitigation has kind of been pushed off just because you know, for the national standard, we're supposed to test within 30 days. Um I'm confident in the the work that we've done that if it you know goes a little bit beyond that, you know, it's not not the end of the world because the you know, the the proof will be in the numbers whenever those come out. But um, yeah, there's you know, some people that you know they have to take a little break and you know try not to focus on radon for a couple months because if you want your house to be closed up, you know, people that don't have air conditioning like myself, it is a big ask in the middle of summertime.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. And when we do um, so you know, we'll we'll set the test say uh 48 hours in advance, and then the inspector will show up to perform the inspection. And uh, you know, you have those cases where it's a vacant house, and when we show up to pick up our radon unit, the whole house is open up is open up is opened up. It does that uh does that warrant a retest in those scenarios? I would say yes.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. I know it's it's a pain for the inspector or for you know a mitigator like myself, but it's I think you want to prove, you know, that the service that you're offering is, you know, upholds a standard. And yeah, yeah, it is another trip and you know, uh yeah just like today, you know, we did a job last Friday and the test was done on Monday, but you know, I was we were I was busy and I didn't get there to pick up the monitor till right before here. So it's not that they can't sit there for you know an extra couple days, but I know that's different in a real estate transaction where everybody's on pins and needles and waiting for the numbers to come back. But right, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And it's it's less of uh, you know, thinking about it in terms of an inconvenience for us as inspectors, but for for our clients potentially too.
SPEAKER_02Well for the ones that are a lot of times our clients are buyers and the sellers are living in the house. Yeah, inconvenience for them. But we've had we've had uh sellers our monitors we can set it up for a time frame and then it shuts down after that time frame. And so we've had them watching that and and waiting for it to shut down so they can open the house back up in that case.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I usually let people know it's like, hey, the test will be done at this day.
SPEAKER_01You know, feel free to open your windows up and can I can I come into my house? Yeah. Am I allowed in here?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, going in and out isn't a big deal, but yeah, when you you know, a lot of people are window you know sleep at their windows open and even in the the winter time and it's you know you have to try to create that closed environment yeah just because if if you paid for the system you want to make sure it's working you know at its worst worst potential time so right yeah okay so we do code inspections as well as the private home and commercial inspections so we see a lot of uh builders putting in what are called passive radon mitigation systems which is essentially all the piping short of an active fan and probably some of the ceiling techniques but sometimes those sometimes sometimes the they haven't penetrated the slab if there is one or if it's in the crawl space they certainly haven't put the web out yeah they've they've just dropped the vertical portion which right once you have to put a mitigation system the hardest part I'm sure is getting between the crawl space and the attic right yeah yeah having that pipe like even if it's not through the slab or you know the vapor barrier is not sealed a pipe that connects the basement or the crawl space to the attic I mean I will 100% always try to use because I I I make it a mission to try to not put a system on the outside of the house just for pure aesthetics. Yeah there's a little bit of a uh you know through our winners there's you know when it gets to be a certain temperature and you're expelling some of that condensation from an exterior mounted fan um there's some freezing but just it looks so much better you don't hear it.
SPEAKER_02Um and it's well my favorite is that radon pump outside outside the house but reachable level and it's just icicles hanging off of it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah I've had lots of calls and pictures being like is this okay and I know it doesn't look good but yeah you'd rather get that out before it gets in your fan blades and potentially you know wears the motor down in the fan so well with those passive systems so you referred to that you have you have maybe minimal but you still have standards as a mitigation uh installer um and we know that those passive systems are not being installed by you know it's just some PVC getting thrown into the house more or less when you're uh going into those houses do you find that the the passive system is adequate for your standard of installation or are you having to do a lot of upgrades in order to make it so most of the time it's it's adequate because a builder will usually have a plumber, they know their plumber that's doing everything run the pipe and most of them you know they will use a schedule 40 pipe um I would say I would have to you know there are some alterings that I do just because if it's going through a slab, you know you don't know if it's just sitting on native soil or even if they claim that it's attached to you know a perforated pipe of some sort under the slab, you know, I want to lay eyes on it.
SPEAKER_00So yeah sometimes I'll cut a little bit of the pipe away to be able to put my camera down there and just to see what it is and um if it's connected to anything like a sewer drain pipe or a perforated pipe, you know great. I'll seal it back up and then you know the the issues can start in the attic but uh and when you say sewer drain pipe you mean that type of pipe.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01Certainly not right we've reason I've said it in case anybody's confused hopefully not but we've seen radon systems attached to sewer drain yes do not do that either yes yeah some of the questions you get are oh can you tie into a plumbing exhaust or you know all those and no no you no you can't right yeah we're we're creating a pressurized system that we uh yeah yeah don't want to introduce to our sewer um so that's actually good to note about the icicles um I haven't necessarily had a great answer for my clients on some of those uh some of those installations that are really iced over and I would say the biggest issue is once you know your fan it through a good installation it shouldn't be like in contact with the siding of a house.
SPEAKER_00So once that ice if it builds a gap from the fan to the house it can cause a little bit of just vibrations in inside that you usually don't get so right. Not to mention siding problems. Yes so I'll tell you know it's pretty easily done to just like knock some away with a a mallet or whatever. But yeah it does it does happen and and should happen if the temperatures are cold enough.
SPEAKER_01Yeah yeah and one of the questions I get a lot are you know the the exhaust pipe goes above the roof but it's just vertical straight up and uh is is the inline fan built to handle the inevitable rain and snow melt that that goes down that exhaust pipe.
SPEAKER_00Yeah so every good system from you know if you're going through the roof or wherever it is exhausted above the roof any horizontal run should have a little bit of negative slope. So if you know if any rain or condensation gets through the fan which does happen um it drains under the slab of the basement or into the crawl space and then the air that you're moving from the radon system dries it out.
SPEAKER_01Got it. Yeah. Or we don't necessarily need to install a candy cane hook at the top in order to keep the water out.
SPEAKER_00Yeah you know most people are concerned about maybe a bird or squirrel because you know in the wintertime that that air is warmer than the outside tent. So but I've you know we used to put a critter guard on there but once it gets cold enough any type of frost formation is just a domino effect and it will lead to an ice up um but yeah I haven't had any any wildlife fall down in a system before so I'm sure it'll happen but I'll take those odds.
SPEAKER_01Not number one concern. Yeah it's uh not un uh unsimilar to um to uh drier drier vents yeah that we that we inspect we don't we don't like to see those pest guards because they can collect lint and they and that lint becomes more of a fire hazard. Yeah but in those we do like to see a gate valve exactly yeah it's kind of a yeah yeah that pest guard tends to be sort of a redundant system that isn't isn't necessary.
SPEAKER_00And most systems are moving a pretty good amount of air that you know it will deter anything from going in there and it will stop some of the rainwater from you know falling right down in the pipe. And it's not that you can't have a 45 or a 90 on there but you know the candy cane the 90 to 90 you know if you are m be you're able to influence a certain amount of air under the slab and then you know you put a couple 90s on there and then you cut down on the pressure you're exhausting you know you can only exhaust as much you know if you're yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Another thing I see on the outside of radon systems a lot is the the vertical portion that's above the fan to the roof line they're using uh they're using a metal gutter system or a metal downspout is basically what it is. Is that is that a legitimate replacement for the PVC?
SPEAKER_00We tried it um it is a legitimate replacement but yeah I mean for our climate you know there there are some down downfalls uh but yeah I think that that is purely aesthetics just trying to make it look like uh you know a downspout coming off the gutter or whatever uh but uh yeah a good old a good old PVC that 45's out and 45's up the roof line I mean you know if if somebody ever got stuck on the roof you know you could use that as a ladder if you really wanted to try to get off the so well it's kind of funny you mention aesthetics because I I tend to think the the gutter material or the the downspout material just looks kind of janky yeah like I don't you know I don't find it to look much more professional. The way you it's obviously aluminum so it's you know it's definitely not as structurally sturdy. Sure. So yeah and then I mean uh the way you secure it is it's not that it's gonna fall off but you can do better with a schedule 40.
SPEAKER_01Right yeah. How do systems differ mitigation systems differ when you have a a combination um house in terms of you know it's half crawl space half uh slab or half basement um how do you approach that with the system design I mean it it falls into the category of that's why we go and look at every house because you have to make sure you're able to you know connect the crawl space to the basement slab portion.
SPEAKER_00You know I've I've done a thousand square foot crawl space and a thousand square foot basement all on one fan you know it's a it's a it's a sizable fan so you you know you kind of size up but then you know the the real work is in the crawl space and you know I wouldn't say ever any vapor barrier even the ones that I do are 100% but they are real close and when you turn that fan on and that vapor barrier you know sucks down you know you you know you're beating some good resistance and then you know the if the slab is before that or after that you know you don't want to lose all your suction power to the crawl space.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00We kind of touched on it earlier where even if you're moving a little more air from your house you know your levels will potentially drop but then you know if you're pulling conditioned air from your livable space it's not a good thing. Right.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I recently came across a system and it was really only it was a you know 2,000 square foot house basement you know finished basement but that's all it had and they had two fans with two separate sets of pipes going out both sides of the basement. And I really couldn't make sense of why they might have two systems on separate sides of the house? Well separate sides of the house but I mean same same slab they're pulling air from and and really so it sounds like they started potentially started with one and maybe the numbers didn't quite come back where they wanted them to.
SPEAKER_00Okay. And then you know you can if like I said if you can if you can add on to that first system and you know you're able to bring another run a pipe 20 30 40 feet down the house great um but you know it doesn't happen often but yeah you you know you pick up a test and you send people their results and you know it's not a conversation you want to have that hey you know your numbers are not quite under four or um even if they are under four and they call back and you know want want them lower um you have to talk about other options and you know some options could just be a higher powered fan. And I've had you know up to three suction points on one fan just to try to mitigate you know one house that is just kind of uh being difficult. But yeah there's you know there's houses where I've had to put a separate separate sit separate systems on both sides of the house to try to you know combat you know a 2000 or 2500 square foot basement which is you know sizable and that it's really helpful to have you know blueprints if if they're ever around um and then you can you know you have to play the some of the factors are how old the house is because if it's a newer house you might have like a crush gravel under the slab. Some of them might have a vapor barrier which are great um a foam board is good but you know it that's why you look at every house and you try to determine the best possible outcome. Right.
SPEAKER_01Yeah yeah you can't just kind of treat it like every every other installation every house is so different.
SPEAKER_00Yeah for for those constant um those constant uh testing systems um that some people may have after you've done mitigation if if somebody doesn't want to invest in one of those systems do you do you have a recommendation for how often they should retest yeah should be every two years okay um it's just because you know the the area around your house is forever changing and if you know if you're in a developing neighborhood and you buy your house and it was low and the houses around you start popping up you know you kind of run into a pocket that hasn't quite reached your house before and then you know somebody that's four or five houses down they tie into the sewer system and it can follow the sewer system or it follows little cracks that once they dig that foundation it kind of just flows up basically um you know if if you it I know it's hard especially if you get a radon system to spend a little more extra money on a a homeowner's continuous radar monitor but you know the like the ones that we really like uh are called an EcoCube you know but the the $150 investment is you know it'll pay for itself when you know you can test for 10 years if you want to and look at it once and all the data is still on on your phone and you know you can see that my hey my house never spiked above four or you know my house is constantly above four and you actually see how you how it fluctuates in the summer and winter and you know how you live in your house.
SPEAKER_02Well and I think you know the EPA recommends I think every two years a test again or something like that. And or if there was any uh construction in your house. But I I think to your earlier point what a lot of people don't know or understand is that really any construction nearby can can cause a problem too. So and like you said there's there's maybe a pocket of it or a a a a condensed location of it somewhere that is not affecting your house at this point. But you know we just had a bunch of construction over here and and you test again because some of the municipal services are in line with one another and you can follow all that kind of stuff.
SPEAKER_00So yeah. Yeah it's really hard to explain to people you know especially when you're in a neighborhood and you do you know someone's house and then the neighbor calls and they have some testing and you know one person's at 15 and then you go across the street and they're at you know two to three and then you go right next door on that same side of the street and they're at 10. You know I I wish I had a better explanation for some people on that one. But we've experienced that too yeah it it's we have a continuous radon monitor.
SPEAKER_02Our neighbor has a mitigation system so presumably at some point they tested high. We don't but our continuous but but I have that continuous radon monitor up uh on we've had it I think for two years now you know in watching the fluctuations through the seasons and of course that's some pretty powerful data if you then go to to sell your house in the future too that's yeah kind of gives a lot of trust.
SPEAKER_00Yeah you tell them that you you know if you want to share it or if you know that I have two years of data and here it is and it never once you know got a buffer so yeah.
SPEAKER_02And that could differ from a 48 hour test. It could and it certainly differ from a five hour test. I can't believe anybody I I know there's been talk over the last year or two on the market about these these uh fast tests these I don't know couple hours or something like that but they're the reason they don't have the ADA or the ADA the EPA backing is because they're crap. Yeah they're just junk. Yes. That's not like you were saying earlier that's not a big enough window to really know what's going on in the house.
SPEAKER_00Two in the grand scheme of thing two days is a really short window. Seven days I think what is what's recommended is that right for like a real estate or no well real estate transaction everything's just a short time frame but I don't know if there's a real recommendation it it there are certain types of tests that obviously can't go over seven days but um yeah if you have uh something that gives you an hourly breakdown if you can let it run for seven days and you know you can you know it m knowledge is power so the more data you have the the more informed of the decision you can make so yeah yeah and like you said this continuous testing if you're suspicious at all those are not very expensive.
SPEAKER_02No and can if if even if it's just peace of mind but compared to compared to what it would cost well just compared to the health costs you know of not knowing is ridiculous. And I was one I'm old enough yeah I was one that uh at one point was saying well 20 years ago radon never killed anybody. It wasn't a thing yeah but we wrap our houses so tight now and we trap all of the all of that stuff that's under them inside the the living space anymore.
SPEAKER_00So it's and when I was uh stupidly saying that then I I wasn't considering all of that even though I lived through the sick houses in the 90s you know oh I know I was exposed to it because we lived in an underground house and it was you know fully cement and it was all baseboard heat you know electric baseboard heat so that air that got trapped in the house it stayed there. Yeah and you know most people don't realize that um you know radon once it gets in your house it decays so it you know radon has a half life of three and a half days so that means every three and a half days it breaks down and it turns into pardon me you know the decay is radon to I think polonium to bismuth to lead and then it kind of circles back to polonius bismuth lead but um the decay is what causes you know potential hazards when you breathe it in but it is a every time it decays it gets faster and faster. So you know the next decay is three hours and then the next one is 30 minutes and then the next one is three minutes. So and until that until that plates out which is you know it hits a table or it hits out the hits the couch and it loses its energy you know it's a continuous breakdown in your house and that's why you want to get it out.
SPEAKER_01So so as we're as we're striving towards less air exchanges per hour with our high efficiency homes there's kind of a another another side effect of that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah yeah yeah and you know as they get more airtight and you know if you are in a higher pocket and that air stays in your house like I said you know there are some pretty good videos out there that if anybody wants to look there you know on YouTube they called radon cloud chambers so they simulate like a cubic foot of air in your house they put dry ice in there and you can actually see the alpha strikes that are coming off and you know they they shoot for about an inch or two and you know it's one of those that if outside when it's not breathed in you know they're not strong enough to penetrate your skin. So that's why it has to be inside your body to hit some of the soft tissue and actually cause damage but you know when they're when there's protons and neutrons circulating around all the ways and they eject you know it's not like it just shoots one direction the whole time.
SPEAKER_01So it's the more you have in the air and the more you breathe in, the higher the chances are of something happening in your lungs but so once a system is installed what are what are maybe some of the indicators for homeowners that the system might not be I mean beyond testing and beyond having a continuous uh monitor um are there indicators that the system might be failing that when that fan starts to sound funky is that a sign?
SPEAKER_00You know indicators the biggest I mean I don't know if there really is any to you know the the fans tend to just get a little noisy you know if they don't completely just stop. But some start noisy I can't tell you how many times I've installed a fan and you know since we get them shipped sometimes they just get a little the motor gets a little off kilter. So you know you install it turn it on and then it has a good little vibration and you know you either have to go swap it out for a different one or uh they're normally quiet. Yes they're normal you know most people are worried about the fan noise and it's usually just the air that's either moving through the pipe or the air that's exhausted above the roof line is what people can kind of hear. So I I usually equate it to like a low flying like plane hum kind of noise. It's really not a bad white noise but maybe I'm a little uh biased on it and get used to it.
SPEAKER_01But what about those um so some systems will have the YouTube manometer or the power indicator. How do you how do you interpret those as a hum owner?
SPEAKER_00I mean every system that goes through a basement slab should have a YouTube manometer and then you know you'll see that one side of that manometer has a little pipe that goes into the actual suction pipe from the PV the radon system and you know that side of the the the blue juice or the red whatever's in there should be higher. So you know you're basically looking that you know if the the mitigator did it right there should be a little placard on it that says you know this is the starting suction power which the YouTube is measuring and you know as long as it has stayed at that Level, you know, you know nothing's changed, but if they're ever even is when you know you know the fan's not working because it's not reading any pressure in the pipe.
SPEAKER_02But those don't tell you anything about the radon, they just tell you the fan's working. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00As a mitigator, they'll tell me, you know, you know, we use what's called the low voltage fan, where you don't have to have a dedicated outlet in the attic or on the outside of your house. And as long as I can run up to a hundred foot cord to, you know, any outlet that's you know, six feet from any outlet, you have the little needle engage. Um, but those fans are they're have good air movement, but they're a little low on suction power. So, you know, you hook a YouTube manometer, and if it's reading like two inches on the water column on that YouTube manometer, then for me that tells me that maybe the fan is a little undersized. So, you know, we'll still test, and things have the ones that I don't have a warm fuzzy feeling about are usually the ones that come out great, and then the ones you don't quite think about are you know, everything is all always works out, but um, you know, there's there's always other options. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So at the very beginning of this conversation, you mentioned getting into you saw that there was a need for doing this uh kind of work the right way. Um so just in kind of a quick overview, what what does what does the right way look like to you and and what's the opposite that you've seen?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, the the fan should be, like we said, should be outside of livable space. You know, you don't want it in the crawl space or in the basement.
SPEAKER_02Um so so outside of livable space, but also outside of any space that communicates with a livable space, right? Like a crawl space. Correct. So that's not somebody somebody's gonna say that's not a livable space, but but that does communicate with the livable space, unlike the attic that does not.
SPEAKER_01So that's outdoors attic or a garage, right?
SPEAKER_00Garage without you know a livable space above it. Right. Um I think the biggest one is you know, a crawl space. There's if you doesn't matter if you can reuse the vapor barrier that's down there or you you know supply a new vapor barrier, it's the work that goes into actually creating that you know airtight barrier. Um let's see. I would say, you know, we don't we aren't certified in, you know, our sorry, our insurance doesn't let us do anything electric. So, you know, if if we need an outlet installed, you know, it's on the homeowner or the the the seller to you know find an electrician, have an outlet ready for when we're there. Uh, I've seen I've seen extension cords, you know, one end chopped off and wired into the fan, and then it runs to you know another outlet wherever. I've seen them tied into uh under cabinet lighting, so the system's only operational when the lights are on.
SPEAKER_02It's awesome.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, they're yeah.
SPEAKER_02Montanas are creative.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. The old uh DI wires. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Or a creative bunch. And the the cord and plug style fans, those have requirements too, right? You can't you can't use those out outside.
SPEAKER_00The low voltage ones? Right. You can't have the box, so it's a fan indicator, which is also the power box. Yes, that has to be inside somewhere. They're not, you know, they're not designed to be all weatherproof or anything. Um, but yeah, you you know, I usually try to put them in a garage. So when somebody's pulling in, you know, it's it's at least in eyesight. So, you know, once the newness wears off, you know, you check it hopefully once a week or whatever to make sure the needle, you know, that it's the needle's still upright, which shows you the fan's still working because if you can't hear it or see it, uh it could take you quite a you know quite a long time to realize that your fan isn't under power or uh the system is not operational. So yeah. No, I would just tell people that uh, you know, like like we touched on, if your house has a system or if you've bought a house and it tested low, you know, with just with the technology we have these days, um test like we said, test your house every two years, or you know, spend the money on a type of continuous radon monitor that you can leave somewhere and it will always be there for you. So, you know, your house is forever changing. And it if you if you don't know about it and it's kind of out of sight, out of mind, you know, there's plenty of people that just it just gets forgotten about.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. And some of those, many of those continuous radon monitors will will monitor other things as well. Correct. Yeah. And so it's it's just the bigger picture you have, the better, yeah, of a place that you're living in or occupying consistency. I we talked about it earlier, but I think it was off camera. Um I'll just revisit somewhere a little after, but right around that time that you guys started, we were going down the road of starting a mitigation company for the same reasons that you were saying. I didn't want to start a mitigation company, uh, because we had other bands in the fire, you know. But since we were coming across so many systems that were poorly installed, even by those that have the certification, but presumably to compete in that arena, were uh cutting their cutting their standards down, if you will, to get the job done. Plus there's that pressure from in a real estate transaction a lot of times. And then the seller doesn't want to pay isn't necessarily gonna want to pay for the health of the buyer, you know, or there's they're they haven't worked out some kind of shared thing, you know, whatever the negotiations, however that worked out.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But coming across your company and how you guys do perform to the standard and and then some and do care uh uh about that quality, I was thrilled when when Jen and I were having that conversation that you guys were doing that, so I didn't have to. Yeah. Kind of thing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. It it kind of boils down to, I think we've already said it, is you know, I look at every house before, you know, to provide an estimate, but to formulate, you know, the best possible plan. And I like to try to educate people instead of, you know, some people are are really worried about it, which it's something to be worried about. But you know, you try not to, you know, you try to provide the best advice you can, and yeah, some people don't quite know about you know them being able to test their own house. And um it's nice to it's nice to actually meet people and then you kind of develop a bond or whatever you will, and then you know performing the work, doing the test, and then seeing how they can feel comfortable in their own home, you know, it is rewarding, even though they might think that uh, you know, with me doing my install, trying not to curse away or anything like that, but it it it is a it is rewarding, and uh I I thoroughly do enjoy you know meeting all different types of people and yeah.
SPEAKER_02Well, the shared care for the client, the ethic, and um the I know my wife calls me anal retentive standard to to do things right instead of just get it done, yeah, is uh why we've recommended nobody but you guys since thank you. So yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, to uh kind of close it out, give you the opportunity, how how can people uh contact you, find out more about advanced radon?
SPEAKER_00You can find us on the web at advanced radon mitigation406.com. The if you live outside of our area, you know, the best one of the best places to start is the NRPP website. You just type in your area code right on basically the front front homepage of the website, and it'll give you a list of certified mitigators that are in your area, and then it'll go further down a distance. Um word of mouth has been very great for us, and it's like I said, it's nice to have uh a daughter and us perform a system on their house, and then you know their parents will call us, you know, a couple weeks later. And yeah, um we love that. Yeah. Knowledge is power people, so you know do do your research. Um don't take a quote over the phone because you want somebody to come in and actually walk you through the steps. So yeah, be informed. And I I when people have done their research and know about radon, I don't feel like they're trying to, you know, pressure me or anything, it's just great that they have took the time because it's something that needs to be uh addressed.
SPEAKER_02And with radon um and environmental things like that, even, but radon even more so, uh if it's not put in, if the mitigation system is not put in right, if it's not performing its job, but it's operating, and you don't educate yourself and you don't retest and you don't make sure that all of that is working the way it should, then it's silently killing you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And that's uh, you know and that without that education piece, that nobody thinks about that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Just because it's uh the amount you're exposed to over how much time you spend in your house doesn't mean that you know you want it to be as less as possible. It doesn't mean that if you're at four, you know, strange things happen. Yeah. So you want to take that risk out. And at the time it might seem like uh a big task, but over the next 10 years or whatever, it you the the benefits will be very worth it.
SPEAKER_02Well and the EPA says four picocuries, do something about it. But the NRPP standard says two and a half picocuries to four, as you say, strange things happen. Yeah, you know, so it's not that if it's if it's four or or if it's under four that it's safe necessarily.
SPEAKER_00Percentages are yeah, it's just a percentage game. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So really you should think about mitigation at two and a half.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And and at four, stop thinking about it. Do something about it. Do something about it.
SPEAKER_00For sure. You I mean, usually it's a pretty easy process. You know, the very few houses that I've said, you know, we have three suction points where yeah, I've had to go back and add a couple or you know, perform an extra a few, but uh the majority of the houses, you know, one suction point, especially in Missoula, just because our old riverbed provides great pressure extension. Um, you know, crawl spaces are there's more work involved in those, but the I would say the the overall outcome is you know it takes a little bit of the guesswork out because there is some of that on just different building styles, construction styles. But yeah, the the unexpected cost and the benefit that it gives you is you know, uh take that leap and just get it done because there's no point to put yourself through that. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Awesome. Well, thank you very much. Yeah, thank you so much, Joel, for thank you guys for joining us and giving us a bit of education on that.