The Inspection Report
Montana's premiere property consultants joined by exceptionally knowledgable and locally relevant trade professionals to discuss all things construction, investing, and maintenance in the Treasure State.
The Inspection Report
Fire-Safe Buildings w/ James Jessop - State Deputy Fire Marshal
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Montana State Deputy Fire Marshal James Jessop joins the podcast to discuss fire safety as it pertains to the built environment.
Hello and welcome to the Inspection Report. This is episode two of season two. And uh today we're joined by uh Montana State Deputy Fire Marshal James Jessup. James, welcome aboard. Thanks for coming on. Yeah, it's absolutely uh so we we actually interact quite a bit, uh have interacted quite a bit before this. Uh in Tim's role as the building official for a couple of jurisdictions down the Bitterroute. I do some of the field inspections for him, and so we kind of overlap quite a bit um in dealing with some building code inquiries and new construction stuff down there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you're two familiar faces to me. Yeah, absolutely. For sure. I'm glad and I'm glad I I know you guys in that respect, for sure, because uh I know that you take us serious.
SPEAKER_05So yeah, well, thank you. Yeah, I think I think we have to, right? I mean the the built environment is uh a pretty critical part of people's everyday life. And so if we if the people making sure it's safe and and sturdy aren't taking it seriously, then that's a that's a red flag, right? Yeah. Uh so so that's your official title, Deputy State Fire Marshal. Uh what does that role entail exactly? What's your day-to-day look like, James?
SPEAKER_00Day-to-day. I'll give you kind of a 30,000-foot view first, I guess, of the office of the state fire marshal. So zoom out on Montana. We kind of there's 12 of us total. Um, there's 10 deputies and our state fire marshal, which is Dirk Johnson, and we have an administrative assistant. And we all have our little regions. We all have counties that we're, you know, kind of in charge of doing the inspections and uh fire prevention investigations for my counties in this area, so Rivali, Missoula, Granite, and Mineral Counties. That's kind of my little niche here. Um but overall, the I guess the mission statement or the appointment for the fire deputy fire marshals is statewide fire prevention and investigation. Um and we basically offer our services to nearly 400 uh fire agencies, 56, all 56 county sheriff's departments, um, more than 60 municipal police departments, and then a variety of other state and federal agencies if they need assistance in that that regard. So we commercial only for the inspection side of things. Right. That's all we do. Um and yeah, we just kind of our mandate is to go into any business. Um we kind of get that authority through Montana Code.
SPEAKER_05So how long have you been uh how long have you been in this role and what were you before?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so in the in the role of deputy state fire marshal since 2022.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00Um before that, we can kind of work backwards. Before that, I was on a combination department in West Yellowstone, Montana. And part of that job title was the fire marshal um fire prevention side of things. Um I had to have my fire inspector won through to ICC. And um that kind of gave me a little bit of the experience I needed to get the, well, I'd say the majority of the experience I needed to get the job and apply to the state fire marshal's office. But I was born and raised in the Bitterroot Valley. So, oh shoot, well, that's all you guys need to know about me, man. Yeah, interview's over. Interview's over. I'm ready for the Joe Rogan show. Um yeah, so born and raised in the Bitterroot Valley, and um kind of two disciplines growing up. So my family owned a construction company down there, um, still do. And so from an early age I was thrown into the the construction world, and from dirt work to finished carpentry, and you name anything. I've I would have been in a ditch putting in municipal water lines and sewer lines to um packing eight-foot forms over my head. My back feels so bad now.
SPEAKER_05Well, when I walk onto a job site, I just assume I'm talking to a jet up down the Bitroute. So I that makes a lot of sense to me. Uh your odds are pretty high there.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, so um kind of and at the same time that's going on. You know, I'm I'm I'm working for my family, I'm working for my older brothers at this point. They've kind of taken over the family business. Um and so I got to kind of get thrown into different disciplines in the construction side of things, also in things also, was I had you know, somebody was in charge of the building, somebody was in charge of the excavating, and I got to go in different places, you know, on a on a weekly basis basis, uh, possibly. And so I kind of really got to learn everything about construction. Um, it was wasn't uncommon for me to be in a you know, truck and pup, hauling dirt one day or one week to being on you know, erecting a still building, commercial steel building somewhere to then doing finished carpentry on a multi-million dollar house. Um at the same time, on the fire side of things, um local volunteer fire department, a lot of just like a lot of towns in Montana, they got their local proud of their local volunteer fire department. And I joined that fire department at age 16, and um that taught me uh also a lot of valuable things about the fire service and how important the fire the fire service is in in these little communities we live in. Yeah, um, I was in that fire department for almost 20 years before up until 2013 when I took the job in West Yellowstone. Yeah. Yeah. So moved moved uproot in my family um from the Bitterroot, which is you know, still get some dirty looks from that every once in a while, but everything worked out good and finally made it back. And go play with the rich people in West Yellowstone. You know, and and I love my experience there, honestly. It was a great community, a lot of good people down there. But it yeah, it's just a uh mountain island with a snowbank beach.
SPEAKER_03So yeah.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. How do you feel that multidisciplinary kind of background in construction contributed to how you're able to sort of see the built environment in terms of um in terms of fire protection? Because uh, you know, as I learn more about, you know, building codes and building codes that are specific to draft stopping and fire protection, I mean it it really crosses the trades. I mean, you know, there's there's a role that the drywallers are playing, there's a role that the insulators are playing, electricians, I mean, everybody, all these different trades kind of have their have their role in what ultimately becomes a fire protected assembly or fire protected structure. Do you so you do you feel that that background gave you the eyes to see that?
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah, absolutely. And along with uh I would say just as important was just the time on the fire department. Because I I got to see how things were built and then I got to see how things were burnt and see what didn't stop the fire. And so you're you know, you kind of establish these these ideas. Okay, if only we would have had uh you know a draft stop or you know, something right here, or an extra layer of gypsum here, or fire blocking here, and you're you kind of you're breaking into the walls, and you're getting you you you understand how the walls are built, right? For one, right? You built you could, you know, you're building that kind of stuff, and then you're seeing that fire, those fire patterns and the fire effects on combustible materials. And yeah, I I would say both disciplines, the fire side of things and the construction side of things really helped me in um the job, and it really started to make sense when I started to start to dig into the codes and learn the terminology and figure out okay, well, this really makes sense now because this is why the code says this right here. I can picture that in my mind in three dimensions of I can, you know, I can put my mind's eye inside of a wall, you know, or whatever.
SPEAKER_05So and you've seen where where it's gone wrong too, unfortunately.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you the the chimney effect that people don't understand. You know, when we call something out excuse me, when we call something out, they they often say that's not a big deal, that's not gonna you know, like you know, it's it's it's a code for a reason, and the and the fact that the code is the the least part that you have to do. You know, it's the minimum. But the as soon as you've seen as soon as you've seen just a couple things burn up and how how the fire follows every little penetration or every stud bay or or ever any any framing bay whatsoever, it's uh you start to pay attention to the paths of communication for any air.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, fire loves air, for sure. It's gonna find it. I I know what a lot of people don't quite understand about uh about building codes um is that when you're when you're thinking about a single family residential house, you're you're working within the parameters of of what's called the international residential code, um, as the state adopts it and amends it. Um but then once you cross over into commercial, which is kind of your purview as far as the the building types you're dealing with day-to-day, you're primarily working in what's called the International Building Code, which is really I mean, there's lots of crossover, of course, but there's there they are completely separate books and and separate sets of standards. Um and one of the things that the building code does that residential doesn't is it it's it's classified one of the first things that it does is it classifies the the building in terms of uh the materials used, the type of construction, the occupancy. Um and and that makes a lot of sense when you think that a commercial building can be anything from an NFL football stadium down to a tiny corner cafe in a downtown location. Um so how does how does the the building code um classification system impact uh the the fire protection requirements um when it comes to those commercial buildings? Where why are we classifying buildings? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Somewhere, somehow along the lines there was something that happened, and so things had to get put in categories and and uh restrictions bolstered, I guess, um ultimately. But you know, you get into the construction type, I guess, would be one of the very first things that kind of dictate where you're looking in the code book. Um and there's you know basically five five of those, right? And our most of our in our part of the world, this the single family dwelling is mostly that lightweight type 5 construction. Wood construction. Wood construction building. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And um and in the you know, in as far as the definitions of occupancy types, is that kind of what you're well so once we you know, so you can have, you know, it it'll the IBC will break things down in terms of, you know, as you're well aware, you know, you can have a uh an assembly type where you've got you know people gathering in a in a movie theater versus uh a mercantile type, your a typical shop or you know, business type, all sorts of different types that essentially have different risk categories when it comes to what type of fire protection is is occupancy is a big one for that.
SPEAKER_00That's that'll dictate you know kind of what you're doing, what the people are doing inside, you know, if you're if you're just selling goods, you know, you're you're getting into your mercantile, and if you're gathering in a space, you know, that's your assembly, and what what's gonna happen while you're gathering in that space, you know, um, because a restaurant's different than a stadium, um, different than a bowling alley. Uh so what are you doing with that space? And um also some hazard classifications or manufacturing, you know, like what are you what is the what is the risk? So you know there's a parameter of codes that coincide with if I'm manufacturing this certain product, then there's a potential higher risk, so I need to have a more strict fire code. Or if I'm ha if I'm in charge of um um p of people um that can't help themselves, so like a hospital or a jail or something like that. So then there's even higher restrictions on codes because now those people can't escape by themselves, they need assistance, and so they need those fire protection uh fire protections uh in place that can help them get out of the the building safely.
SPEAKER_01That's what a lot of it seems well, almost all of it seems to be built around the idea of how fast and safe uh egress happens so people can escape the danger. So like you're saying, knowing what the potential dangers are and then what people are doing, so how easy is it gonna be for them to get up and get out, you know? And then of course there's all kinds of rules with the building code uh about number of people and number of egresses and number of uh or or how when you need signs and how many all that kind of stuff.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, it's uh the book's pretty thick, both of them are the companion codes. I mean building code, fire code, mechanical code, it's they're all thick books. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, so so we're classifying buildings in terms of not only the materials that they're built of, um, and you know, I guess the the flame flame spread categories of those materials, but also um in terms of how many people we're putting in a space and also the behavior of those people, what they're actually engaging in what they're doing inside the building, absolutely. Essentially you're you're creating a a risk grade, so to speak, to determine what kind of fire protection systems are are gonna be necessary, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's a good way to put it, I think that yeah, it's it's all kind of based off that that risk and worst case scenario kind of a thing, you know, which is fire in most of those places and slips, trips, falls, and things like that too. But yeah, um ultimately on in our code that I have my nose in is the the International Fire Code. Right. And Montana is adopted the 2021, it's every three years they come out. Um we're in the 2021. Uh 2024 has been out since 2024, and you know, possibly we'll get that adopted through the state here within the next every three years they come out, every five years we adopt it. We adopt it. And then and then how that typically works is the building code uh adopts first, and then the the fire uh side um adopts right after the building code. And so um that's another big thing with the fire marshal's office is that um part of the the job is to is to go through the adopted code and amend things um the way Montana law to reflect Montana laws and things like that. So, you know, as well as you guys know what the building side of things, the the administrative rules of Montana, there's quite a bit of difference, or changes, I should say, tweaks on little things that um the that we do in Montana. Um and then the other side of the kind of a the deal between the the fire services in Montana versus the or the fire agencies in Montana versus the state fire marshal's office is the state fire marshal's office adopts the the general code, right? And there's certain parts of the code that aren't adopted. Uh quite a bit, actually, of the code that's not adopted. And then if you have a certified agency within the state of Montana, so um a certified agency could be uh a municipal fire department, and they have their own prevention program, and they get certified, they go through the steps to get certified through the state fire marshal's office to perform their own investigations and and um inspection, mostly inspections is what they have to get certified for. And they can adopt above and beyond what the state adopts in the code, so they can they can adopt the full the full fire code if they if they want to implement those things. So there's a little bit, and coming from uh a department that was a certified jurisdiction, you know, and then coming into this the fire marshal's office, there was a little bit of a learning curve for me because I was wanting to say, okay, well, what about this? Because we had we had adopted this in uh in the municipal fire department, and um I was used to just nailing, or no, I shouldn't say nailing people, but I was used to I was used to pointing those things out and saying, you can't do that. And uh, or we're gonna, you know, we also need this from you. Right. Um the the we're kind of gonna want to get too far off track, but I want to circle back just a little bit because uh I want to um kind of show how the state fire marshal's office collects a cadre of and b has bolstered the cadre of state fire marshals, and Dirk has done a fantastic job. His you know he's kind of the vision. Um and then with the we kind of fall into under the Department of Justice, right? And then we're in the division of criminal investigation, and so the administrator is um Lee Johnson, so he's my boss's boss, and then there's one level in between that, and that's the deputy, the bureau chief, sorry, the bureau chief, and that's John Sullivan. But I got a shout out to those guys because they've done a great job of of giving the fire marshals um the tools and the training to do our jobs very proficiently. And and like I said, going back to bolstering that cadre of of fire marshals. When I first started, there wasn't 10 deputies. Yeah, and so the the the fire marshals had a lot of responsibility and a lot of coverage areas. So they were really only hitting the things that were necessary to hit as far as inspections go. Sure. So the the mandates of of if I'm a if I'm if I need a state license, a school, daycare, group home, assisted living, yeah, I have to get a fire inspection every year to keep my license. Um and the and the other thing is department of revenue and all the liquor license stuff. Yeah. And so really a lot of the general businesses were getting we're getting missed. Um the first couple years uh in this job, I can't tell you how many places I walked into and it was a deer in the headlight look like who are you? Yeah, and why are you in my store? Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_01We inspected several commercial buildings with full sprinkler system, everything hasn't been looked at in six, seven years, you know. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And so our I'd say our our group of guys, and and for the most part, the majority uh guys and gals are the most part they're they come from the background of the fire service. Yeah. Uh in Montana. So they you know, we've got uh ex chiefs, deputy chiefs, fire marshals, battalion chiefs, they and they've come from you know bigger departments with a plethora of knowledge about the job. So which is really cool for me because I get to, you know, hey, I don't know this. Which happens a lot. Oh yeah. We do that a lot.
SPEAKER_01It's fantastic to have not just a team but resources at your disposal.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. So that's that's really helped with the the being able to do my job efficiently and effectively. Yeah. I think I got off track there a little bit and I'm going to circle back to where we were on.
SPEAKER_05And that's kind of where we overlap a lot is is your work with those um, you know, liquor licenses and and uh chain change of uses, change of occupancies quite a bit. And I I find that, you know, we have a a decent amount of um real estate professionals and and ri uh realtors who who uh watch and listen to this and we interact with them quite a bit who really don't have a working understanding that a commercial space, you know, if if you're taking it from so we talked about the IBC, and uh if you're taking it from one classification to another, that's maybe a higher risk classification. You're taking an old um you know retail space and you want to turn it into a movie theater, yeah. You know, um you don't get to just do that without making upgrades to protect the occupants expensive ones, yeah. And and often expensive ones to protect the occupants inside because that's a much that type of occupancy is a whole different thing. You don't love to just do that anymore.
SPEAKER_00Well you used to. I feel like, yeah, I feel like there was a lot of that going on for a long for a long time, you know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well it to your point earlier, it it it flies under the radar. Uh there wasn't the oversight that we have now with the with the DOR. So we run into that all the time. What do you mean I need to do this? You know, yeah uh that you know that that only makes sense, especially when you go from a B to an A, you know, a business um mercantile or something like that to a to an assembly. It's a completely different dynamic as far as getting people out safely, you know, or what can go wrong, especially if you go say throw a commercial restaurant uh kitchen into something. Oh man, yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, or the and and to that, so just so the listeners know the viewers, I don't know, um the occupancy change or the change of use, if you change use, you have to come all the way up to the full code.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, to the the current code.
SPEAKER_00Right, whether you plan on doing any remodeling or not. Yeah. And no matter how old the building was. Yeah, yes. And so if the if you're if you're in an occupancy that was built in a certain year that the building code was adopted, then you have to adhere to the the year that building code was adopted. For that occupancy. For that occupancy. But yeah, the minute you want to start changing a lot of things um in there, then yeah, you gotta bring that up to the the the current code, which I think a lot of people don't know. Yeah. So they start to tell you a lot of people don't know. And even like these little mom and pop shops that might have been a storefront business, um, and they want to do like a little thing where people gather and it might turn into an assembly. Well, now the numbers come into play because you can have um a business with an assembly type use, but as long as you stay under that 50 people, so 49 or less, you can keep that as a business. Right. But the minute you go over 50, now you got to bring it all the way up to the current code. Right. You know. Yep.
SPEAKER_05Yep. Yeah, and I yeah, so we run into that all the time, all often too late, because we'll be asked to perform a commercial property inspection for somebody who's you know, who's made an offer or maybe is even further along in the process when when purchasing a commercial property, and then they give us all their all their visions and plans for what they want to do with it, and we're going, well, yeah, you might have more than you you bargained for here.
SPEAKER_01So it behooves the realtors to ask those questions for the sake of their clients on behalf of their clients, uh as they're shopping.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, especially if you gotta start getting into the you know the fire alarms and the sprinkler systems and and um suppression system stuff, you know, in the commercial kitchen side of things, um or the assemblies that would require that. There's a lot of grandfathered in assemblies that you know I've I've gone into and I said, what's your occupancy load? And and it's uh it's a big number, you know, triple digits, something like that. And and where the current code would say, you know, if I have if I have a hundred people in a in a uh assembly that serves food and drink, then I've got to have a sprinkler system. Well, you know, we you might have a grandfathered in a uh restaurant bar somewhere, and they might their occupancy load might have been, oh, we had a sign on the wall that said 300. Yeah, you know, or or 200 and something. Just did one of those in Victor. Yeah. So then you really gotta start looking, okay. Well, um you might be grandfathered in on some occupancy, but you're not grandfathered in on some of the life safety stuff. You know, exits still have to be adequate, you still need the emergency lighting and the exit lighting and all those kind of things to get people out of the building, you know, safely. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05So can those same requirements come into play? Um if say you're not going through a change of use or occupancy, but you are expanding on an existing building to where it changes the amount of people you can fit in a space. Do you do you come across those circumstances quite a bit where it's well, you know, you were below a certain occupant load, but now that you added this, you doubled your square footage, now things are now things are different.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um square footage is another trigger, right, for the the possible um systems that need to be in place. So if they're adding square footage, you really have to look, okay, now what is your what is that total? Now did you pass the threshold to where now you have to imply uh implement this system? Yeah. Um so yeah, you have square footage, occupancy load, all those things can can trigger an upgrade in your all your systems.
SPEAKER_05Story stories above grade, even right? Stories below and above, yeah. Because then we start to worry about how are people getting out of that out of that building safely as well.
SPEAKER_01And for fire safety, you don't have to just worry about the new part. It affects the old part too, right? Absolutely. So you'd have to put maybe a sprinkler system throughout even the old existing portion as well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, the entire thing, unless you can, you know, the neat thing about the code, right, is there's a lot of different ways people can get things done. There are some certain things that's like, no, you have to do this no matter what. But there are there's different things, and people can get creative in the construction world with you know separations and and you know, fire doors and things like that. And I think that's the cool thing about it. It's a unique, you know. Um back to the the Montana kid in me. I so much government overreach, you know, I I don't like it as much as the next guy, but as long as people are fulfilling the intent, I guess, of what the right what the code is is saying, and you can get you know registered design professionals, engineers, architects, and they can say, okay, this is how we believe this is gonna meet the intent of the code, and this is what we've put into place to meet that intent. Yep. You know, so I think there's a little bit of leeway on on things, but every once in a while it's cut and dry. It's like, nope, you have to do this, and you've got to get it done as fast as you can.
SPEAKER_01We've been able to work together to come up with some creative solutions to some of those things too circumstances. So that's to your point, there's there are oftentimes avenues you can just get a little creative and satisfy the code.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, and it and it gives a certain amount of that leeway to the authority having jurisdiction, you know, whether it's on the building side or the the fire side, um, to to make those interpretations. But uh, you know, I think it's also important, you know, for contractors to know too that there are limits to that, you know. We you know, because I I I do have those conversations where they um, you know, the contractor is just, well, you're the authority having jurisdiction, so you just kind of design whatever you want me to do. Yeah, yeah, right on the spot. And it's like, no, I I'm working within these parameters and I'm afforded a certain amount of interpretation.
SPEAKER_00But or the word, you know, they're savvy. The they they float right under the numbers on bills, you know. Like, you know, well, it's not commercial if it's a four-plex, right? We gotta go five and more. Um, and so the walls between them, you know, aren't gonna be as well.
SPEAKER_01And that's to those listening. That's in Montana amendment, also. Yeah, right. The IBC is four and up. Yeah, IRC is up to three. Right, right. And there's some there's some three-plex language in the IBC also, but yeah. But Montana has said uh four is the limit, which makes sense from a real estate standpoint, too. That all makes those two worlds uh communicate effectively because it's uh what is it, it's residential multifamily up to four in in the lending world. Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and it's and you know, I think there's a lot of contracts contractors out there that are that want to have a great product that they can sell. Yeah, um, unfortunately, there's contractors out there that you know will skip as much as they can to get something to where they can sell it also. Um and I think that on the like let's let's let's say a fourplex, and I don't go into fourplexes, right? Unless they get a change of use and become something commercial, right? But um, but I just don't think the fire separations and things like that are as strict, or they don't have to build them as strict, right? So then you've got four families that might not have that separation they need between floors and walls um to for the for the duration to get people, it's all about getting people out. So we want that time delay if a fire gets started, early notification and a time delay to get adequate, yeah, yeah, you know, adequate so we can get those people out of there.
SPEAKER_05But absolutely. Yeah, so I I know your your world mostly revolves in the the commercial side of things, but I do want to discuss a little bit of kind of residential fire protection topics and and different things as as much as we can too, because I know a I know a significant portion of our audience is just kind of your your everyday homeowner who wants to know a little bit more, or a home buyer who wants to know what they're getting into, real estate professionals working those those residential deals as well. Um one topic that comes up quite a bit, um, and also from an insurance perspective, is uh the defensible space around a house. Um not something that people in uh you know a city are necessarily worrying about unless it's you know the the space building to building. But uh can you speak to those rural areas that are you know in those wooded areas um and kind of what are what defensible space is essentially and and kind of the concept there? Sure.
SPEAKER_00Um defensible space or ignition zones around a house. There's and there's basically three, I guess. Uh zone one would be your house exterior, what it's built out, built of, and three feet from the exterior wall.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_00That's kind of your zone one area. Zone two is gonna be from that distance, your house out a hundred feet into that defensible space. And and truly those two zones, zone three is beyond that if you happen to own more property than that. Um but really those two first zones are really make the biggest difference on the survivability of a of a structure during a wildland fire. Um having that having that defensible space right up against your house is so important. It's funny. I was on a wildland fire up here in in Black Mountain Fire, I think it was 2010, and a bunch of the fire departments came down for mutual aid one night because it was the night it was blowing up, you know, and so we were up there Blue Mountain somewhere in the night in the dark, you know. So all that, you know, when you're coming in somewhere at nighttime, you're kind of lost for a minute to kind of get your feet on the ground. And we're doing structure protection, and we're there's propane venting going off, you know, all the time. Everybody's kind of, oh geez, that sounded like this big roar with a 30-foot flame blowing up, and uh and we're sitting there at this one house, and this guy comes pulling up, he's got his gear on, and and he kind of goes traps and back there along behind the house. The house is two-story uh daylight basement on a slope. And uh and so you know we're kind of looking at him like, who is this guy? And he comes up and starts talking to us about hey, you guys know anything about why houses burned down. I was like, well, yeah, I mean, I also kind of, I mean a little bit. And so he introduces himself and he his name's Jack Cohen, and he's a renowned um retired Forest Service scientist, PhD guy, and he's he's done countless articles uh on defensible space. I think at one point he in Canada, Canada, he did these big experiments on on uh this whole town where uh wildfire came into the town. I think he was they'd be able to build all these buildings and do these experience uh experiments up in Canada. So he super knowledgeable guy. And so he started talking to us. And if he said, if you can imagine where the snow collects in the winter time, where the snow eddies and builds up by against your house, against the walls, against the foundations and things like that, your combustibles, it's like that's the exact same spot that that pine needles and things, you know, dry the the dry duff and the things that are gonna ignite are gonna collect on your house. The things that burn down houses for the most part are uh amber landing in a gutter full of peodles or um leaves in a valley, a steep valley where the pine needles haven't been cleaned out yet. Um against underneath a deck where things have just collected. Um a good thing for homeowners to do is to make sure, especially if you're in the Wooie or the Wildland Urban Interface Area, um, make sure that you've got good screens around your deck so that if if you're getting a wildland fire is gonna be approaching, if you're if you're in that area where it's possibly gonna be approaching, which we all are at some point, then make sure you got a screen with with quarter inch or less holes, and you put that around your deck so that embers can't get in there and light things on fire. Make sure that you're have no pine needles up against anything combustible. Um gable vents, another big one. Um make sure the screen's small enough to where embers can't fly into your gable vent.
SPEAKER_05Um what was the diameter you said?
SPEAKER_00A quarter inch? Quarter inch. Yeah. Um combustible to combustible, keep a separation. If you've got like say a combustible fence up against combustible stairs, up against combustible deck deletes the combustible siding, you know, that's through conduction, that's how things continue to burn and progress. So just make sure you got some sort of a separation point there to where if you're if you get evacuated and you're gone and the fire comes through and now it's just things burning on the ground. Well, given the time frame and the the right conditions, you know, it won't take long to go from that side of your deck and creep over to your siding and light your siding on fire. Um roofs, that's another big, you know, everybody loves um wood shake roofs. And and you can treat those true, honestly, you know, it's the then but you gotta maintain that. You gotta maintain that treatment. Insurance companies don't like wood shake.
SPEAKER_01But it's it's a good note that the uh that quarter-inch screening is not just for pests, yeah. You know, because it's all in the same places that you would put it to keep pests out, but that's all anybody thinks about, really. But embers is is yeah, a good thing to be conscious of as well. Right.
SPEAKER_00The the bark, you know, beds up against your stuff like that.
SPEAKER_01Trees in your garden beds right close to the house.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, bushes, ladder fuels really in general. You want to make sure that you don't have out that back to that 100-foot zone, zone two. Um you want to keep your trees, the crown spacing, so from center tree to center tree, you want to keep where the where the branches aren't touching. You know, you don't keep a good space, maybe 15 feet to where, you know, on depending on how the size of your tree, those branches are never gonna touch because that's gonna inhibit that transfer of heat to light the next tree on fire and light the next tree on fire. Yeah, define ladder fuels for a rider. Yeah, so a ladder fuel would be if I have um some, you know, I planted some bushes on the ground and then I planted a tree next to them, and the tree branches are low enough to where the the bush can reach those tree branches. That's a ladder fuel. So the bush lights on fire, lights the branches on fire, torches the tree out. So in that 100-foot space also, limb your trees up six to fifteen feet. Yeah, yeah. Keep those ladder fuels down where you can't have those ground fuels hidden. Don't let them overhang your house. Yeah, not touching your house. Yeah, right. Um, the keeping your lawn mowed and green, simple things. Hardscapes are there's there's ways to make those hardscape landscaping look good, and I think you're starting to see a lot of that coming from different states and in design and things like that for um places that have had a a problem with structure uh wildland urban interface fires for a long, long time. So concrete patios, rock, gravel, flower beds, um anything that you can do uh uh up against the you know that three feet to thirty feet against your house to eliminate combustible material is the better better better off you are. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01We we often pick on the garden beds or the landscaping right up next to the house for many reasons. Most the the common reason anywhere, whether you're in rural area or urban area, is because of w water displacement. You know, we're gonna get wicking water up into it, or sometimes the garden bed is right up against the siding and and of course there's no water protection there at all. But it's good to keep in mind, thank you for explaining that, that that uh there's a fire hazard there too, especially in the rural areas. Because it just seems like everybody wants to plant trees right next to their house and put these big bushes up next to the house, you know, and and uh yeah, the without thinking about ladder fuel potent potential and and you know there are there are annuals and perennials out there that that are more resistant to fire.
SPEAKER_00You know, you don't have to have the the the tall grass in your flower bed against your house or the light flashy fuels or the any any um anything you plant that if you're cleaning out dead things in the spring on that bush, you know, you're clipping and you're pulling out the the dead remains from winter, that's gonna be a a Some vegetation that's prone to be flashy and light on fire. You know, so if you can find something that's not like that, and there's stuff out there, you know, there's lists that you can find. Um, even tree types that are less prone to ignition. Yeah. You know, so as long as they grow, as long as they grow somewhere at this elevation, then you're good to go. Still keep them a little bit away from the house. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, no, those for many reasons. Yeah, those clearances come into play not only from a a wildland fire protection perspective, but also, you know, from the inside out, because it it's also true that in these more rural locations, we're dealing with uh solid fuel fireplaces, solid fuel stoves, um, you know, that have chimneys that are throwing, you know, throwing embers out the firewood stacked right against the house. Yeah, and that's another big one. That's a probably another part of the defensible space. It's convenient to go get when you need it. Yeah, you should you should not stack all your fireworks.
SPEAKER_00I can't tell you how many times being doing structure protection in my career that we've had crews just move firewood away from houses.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, and we've we've had uh insurance companies say that if if it goes up with that, then that's that's a policy negation.
SPEAKER_04Oh wow, yeah. Oh well, yeah, I hadn't heard that. That makes sense.
SPEAKER_05But yeah, so yeah, you know, branches overhanging your uh your your chimney that might be throwing embers from a from a fireplace or a or a wood stove. I mean it can the call can come from inside that.
SPEAKER_00There's a lot of Montana's famous for uh chimney fires, you know.
SPEAKER_05So and there's a lot of maintenance that comes with that. I I don't know how um I'm maybe that would come up in your job more on the investigation side of things, but uh do I mean I guess you just said it, you you come across a lot of a lot of incidents that have to do with improper maintenance or installation of of uh wood wood stoves? Maintenance, yeah.
SPEAKER_00I'd say that's probably a bigger one, or just the the age, you know, there's a lot of brick and mortar rock insert fireplaces that you know if your house was built in, you know, in the 70s, 60s, you know, 80s, you got a lot of those around, and and they're they are prone to that clay flume. You know, it's it's prone to um if it gets a uh chimney fire in there, then it's it's prone to that getting damage, and then the mortar lines you start to get little leaks and things in those mortar lines, and then it starts, you know, and then it's just pushing out. And so, yeah, get getting those things inspected once a year, um, cleaned, at least inspected to see if you need to clean your chimney once a year. I'd say anybody with the wood stove needs to be doing that absolutely annually, annually chimney sweeps are getting harder to find because nobody's doing that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00A lot of people can do it themselves, but I better be careful if you're you know, if you're on a 412, that's you're you're probably good.
SPEAKER_01But they can, but um doing a an inspection the right way is right takes a little more scale.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, a lot of times you need those scopes, you know, you need some sort of a camera that you can get down or up into those those concealed spaces that you can't see, you know. And and a lot in a lot of those um insert, it's right above the insert. And so, and that's that first initial space. So, you know, trying to get into there is you have to have the unique tools to do that. So, do you guys carry those?
SPEAKER_01Um we don't do chimney in interior inspections. We'll do fire the firebox and the exterior of the chimney, but we don't we we bring somebody out for the inside. That I don't fit in chimneys.
SPEAKER_05But it's it it is more or less a pretty much a default comment in our reports anytime that we have a a solid fuel burning, you know, appliance stove, fireplace that you know just going over that continued maintenance and the importance of it.
SPEAKER_01And uh yeah, we'd recommend that every time.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, uh you know, Montana's not unique in its average cause of residential structure fires. Um it falls right in there with the rest of the nation, and number one's cooking, and then heating is just behind that, and then some sort of electrical re electrical malfunctions kind of behind that. But but average um nationwide, and you can you can pull these numbers, there's a couple different agencies, but like uh an NFPA or the National Fire Protection Uh Association is a good they they they do a great job of collecting information and getting getting it out there to the public. But average last five years in the United States, north of 300,000 residential structure fires, you know, and um I think it's an average of six to nine billion dollars. Might even be it might be that number might be low, it could be a little higher than that for the that cost in the United States. That's a you know, that's a big cost for structure fires, and then you start adding the they the fatalities and the injuries involved in that. I I think it's 2700 average fatalities a year. Yeah, that's seven people a day. You know, I mean that's that's uh something wrong with that. And though it's kind of been trending down since the 80s, um the deaths per 1,000 is still the same or higher. Wow, yeah, and and a lot of that's attributed to what we have in our houses, you know, these big fancy nice couches we're sitting on, and they're just fuel loads, you know. So our houses are being built tighter, which is which is actually kind of bringing the overall number down, and so the uh the fires become oxygen starved.
SPEAKER_05Um that's an interesting point. So with the with the increase in requirements for energy code to meet you know those less air exchanges per hour. I mean, we're putting blower-door tests on all new construction to try and limit the the air leakage through, you know, well those sources.
SPEAKER_01Those are actually to induce uh more airflow because we wrapped them so tight that yeah, I need that air exchange.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Right, but we um but that plays into the fire behavior, yeah, you know, with how airtight, airtight the houses are.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. The the I've been to many fires to where one room has you know uh flashed over, but since doors were shut and things like that, it never you know, it went to the decay stage and and uh eventually put itself out because it just was fuel fuel limited, you know, and oxygen limited. So you might have a big couch in the in one area that can it's the equivalent to gallons of gasoline, you know, as far as when you ignite it. Bed mattresses too. Yeah, mattresses. And so and that go and that goes back to that the the fatality deal is uh people it's so toxic, you know. People can't get out fast enough because of the the tox toxins in the smoke and the deleting causes smoke inhalation. Um the other the other side of how we build now with lightweight is things aren't built to burn either. Once it starts to get into the the core components of the structure, it goes faster. It's just you know, things are collapsing, walls are collapsing, so walls are collapsing.
SPEAKER_05So more paper houses that we're building. Yeah. Well, and so I've I've heard uh from a a couple folks in the the fire industry um talk about how uh so we're you we're utilizing engineered wood uh products, um, specifically engineered wood joists, where instead of a full full dimensional lumber, you know, it's got a top and a bottom cord and basically a uh a webbing of OSB between. And from a production standpoint and from a you know load-bearing perspective, I mean it's it is a fantastic product, but uh I've also heard of some pretty dangerous circumstances for first responders because of um how those break down and burn so much faster that uh floor collapses are are more and more common in in residential fires. Is that have you come across that?
SPEAKER_00Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, as a as a framer, I love BCIs, you know, and they're fast, they're straight. Yeah, you don't, you know, you're get 16 foot 2x12s and you're like looking down them, you know. But if you a little bit of heat on those things and the glue stay, they start delaminating. Yeah, and so um they start delaminating, they they'll just burn faster because of you know the the thinness of them versus you know an inch and a half nominal inch and a half piece of solid wood. Yeah, but yeah, I mean and it's kind of scary too because I have been on fires where the the flooring, the engineered flooring, whether it's you know wood, how that fits together on top of the subfloor, looks like it's intact 100%, unless you start looking really close and you start to look at the baseboards around the walls, and then you see that it's actually sagging. And then you go underneath and you go, okay, I'm glad nobody went in there because half the BCIs are 100% gone all the way. Wow, you know, charred, gone, hanging off the hangers, basically. Yeah, you know, melt or melting right off the hangers. Yeah. So there is a it's catch 22, right? Like from a from a cost perspective and a speed perspective, it's amazing, but from the long-lasting perspective, if you have a fire, then it's a big remodel.
SPEAKER_05Right. What would you so from time to time when we're doing a private, you know, home inspection for a for a sale, um, we'll come across evidence of past fire damage, um, ranging from you know smoke staining in an attic to, you know, rafters or or or beams that are actually, you know, alligatored and and black and and charred that have been left in place essentially. And some, you know, presumably somebody somebody was aware of the fire and work happened on the interior to patch things up. But um for somebody who's buying a house, inspector comes across, you know, and really any any level of evidence of a past fire, how how should they how should they be treating that? Not not in terms of how do they remediate it, but like if you're buying that house, what what what kind of mindset are you having towards that? What's the next step? You know, who who do you need to get involved in that?
SPEAKER_00Uh if it's structural, then you know you're gonna want to obviously get some an engineer involved in that problem, you know, because uh unless you're if it's not structural and you like the look, then you know, maybe maybe that's the new look. I don't know.
SPEAKER_05And is there any truth to just like surface level damage, you know, to to members like that? You know, if I it's not necessarily that if I see uh a truss that's alligatored and charred, it's not necessarily compromised, correct?
SPEAKER_00Or is it um I've I I'm not gonna speak to that comp you know how the level of that, but it's worth investigating. I'd say if it's just black, you know, I mean you're just darkening the wood. Right. Obviously, uh all nominal lumber has a uh a percentage of char that it can withstand before it becomes compromised, sure. Um, but you know, you definitely have to get that looked at by the further investigation regardless.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I think you might be surprised by how often that's getting a week at it and you see some oh there was a fire here.
SPEAKER_01Somebody who's been in there for 35 years and didn't even know it. Oh wow. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05So that can naturally become quite a uh quite a surprise.
SPEAKER_00And and a bigger thing with new trusses and the gangnels, right? The the the way they're web together, those will those can't withstand the heat. They they can't, you know, the the lumber can withstand some heat, but those can't. Because what does metal do when it heats up? Well, it expands and then it'll pop off of that. And so I would be more worried about you know the way those the plates that are holding those trusses together being um exposed to that level of heat. That's an interesting because then now you're just weakening the whole the whole deal.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Usually when we find left-in-place fire damage, it's it's an older structure with plywood. Uh plywood and uh um uh old old timber or old lumber. You know, so it's it can withstand a lot more than today's materials can, but um but still with any doubt, you're I think you're right. You get a an engineer involved just to render an official opinion. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, especially because we're in Montana, right? And so they're dealing with trusses and snow loads and oh yeah, yeah, you don't want to play around with that.
SPEAKER_05No. And a lot of so I know a lot of the residential code requirements are not are written not only to protect occupants, but to also provide access for first responders in a lot of ways as well, right? So we've got you know, with uh egress requirements for for um you know basement bedrooms, they have to meet a certain dimension. Yep. Um, and I've heard anyway that part of that is to make sure that you know a a firefighter in full gear can can access the home.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you're absolute absolutely right. That's something I don't think a lot of people understand. Yeah, is um, oh I can fit out that window. No, that's not an issue. I can throw my kid out that window. You know, it's not an issue. But no, it's yeah, for the firefighter access, you know, emergency access and egress is what it is. And so yeah, um if you're looking to, and this is kind of where our worlds might mingle on the residential and commercial. If people are looking to do a change of use on a residential structure and make it into a short-term rental, okay, now they're required to get a change of use for that, and because it's gonna be commercial, right? And so not that they think so. No, right, right. Um, and so they gotta make sure that's kind of up to those those standards. Um especially if it's an older house and it's got you know, sometimes those older houses just had little tiny windows in the bedrooms, yeah. And making sure that those, you know, you got an opening, it's the part that isn't the what you can see out of, it's what you can open. Right, you know, it should be five square feet on the main floor and it should be five point seven square feet on a you know, second floor or basement.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's a a great topic because as building officials get phone calls all the time, I want to turn this into a short-term rental, I'm gonna convert it. They don't use that word, but that's basically what it is. Yeah, you know, and so you have to have a conversation. Well, that that's commercial now. Not only does it have to go through planning and zoning, probably, depending on the jurisdiction, but it has to go through all those safety upgrades, you know. And if it's an older house they're turning into a short-term rental, then it usually doesn't have any of that stuff, right? And they weren't planning on spending money, they were planning on making money.
SPEAKER_00Gotta spend some money to make some money. Yeah. And if they do that on the front end, it'll save them on the back end for sure. But yeah, a lot of those um well, you know, it's it's it's in the it's a code requirement for residential, right? Yeah. I mean, when egress access, that's you're supposed to have that no matter what in you in new houses. Smoke alarms you're supposed to have in new houses, but it's amazing how many houses out there don't have smoke alarms. You know, you you talk to the little kids at fire prevention week, and you know, do you guys know what this is? And a lot of little kids will say, I don't have that in my bedroom, you know. Um telling all their parents. Yeah, so tell your parents to stop by the fire station. We'll give them a lot of people. We'll install it for them if we need to.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. And I and I grew up in a house, my my dad was a firefighter, and so we got the we got the rundown, you know, on a regular basis. Like, you know, this is how you open, yeah, because we had uh our bedrooms were in the basement, so it's this is how you open open the window, this is how you'd get out, and here's you know, you know, testing smoke alarms at all you know all hours of the day.
SPEAKER_00My kids probably didn't get a play of fireworks at all.
SPEAKER_01She was sticks, though you don't watch a kid playing with fireworks out there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, they just didn't even they 4th of July was horrible for them. I never want to do anything with fireworks. So watch everybody else be irresponsible. Yeah, we'll go to we'll go to the fireworks. Yeah, there you go. But but yeah, the fire, you know, having that having a plan, and it's a requirement in the in the short-term rentals. Um you have to have a plan posted. You have to treat it kind of like the uh hotel room in in a sense. You know, um you have on each floor, you need a some sort of a by the bedrooms, you need some sort of a posted plan to get out. Um, you need your fire extinguishers, and you need to make sure those are maintained. A lot of people don't um think that all fire extinguishers are the same, right? They're they're they're not. They need to be uh a certain type or a certain capability, I should say. Um and smoke, you know, I mean, smoke alarms are getting super fancy these days, but they need to make sure that the smoke alarms have that UL 217 listing. That's important because those are the latest standards for smoke alarms, and that they can communicate with one another now. Yeah, that they can they have to be inter Yeah, they have to intercommunicate.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, they're yeah, all all hard hardwired now and inner interconnected.
SPEAKER_01Well, they they have a um I have not seen how well they work, but the infrared uh retrofit for those detectors that aren't hardwired, they're just battery, but they're supposed to be able to communicate with one another anyway.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Well, I've noticed too, some of the requirements for, I mean, in residential as far as where they're placed for smoke detectors, um, can be kind of cross-disciplinary. So, you know, d during construction, the the electrician is taking care of that because they're you know, they're the ones who are interconnecting them and uh so they're they're the ones charged with, you know, where are we placing these and even if it's not an electrical code, it's a building code. Right, but there can be there can be differences in so in in the essentially they're trying to go off of their own code as an electrical tradesman, but you can find that you know in the in the international residential code, you know, within every sleeping room, immediately outside the vicinity of every sleeping room, but then there's also subtleties to, you know, if you can imagine you've got bedrooms that open to a hallway, and then that hallway opens to the living room, and there's a 24 inch difference in ceiling. Right between that hallway and the living room, then you also need one in the hallway and that space. And that kind of goes to smoke and fire behavior. And you know, for people who are just listening, this is an impossible thing for me to explain. Well, but there's more.
SPEAKER_01I mean, you can keep that 20 feet away from the kitchen. You can do all your own things.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, and it's uh it it's more than just sticking a smoke detector in your living room and and calling it good enough.
SPEAKER_01I mean, we keep it so far away from the the wall ceiling joint because smoke rolls instead of yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05Don't cover it with a ceiling fan.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, certain distances, you know. I'd say priority number one, sleeping areas, yeah. That early getting that early notification. And going back to the building construction, the the smoke alarm construction and manufacturing has is tried to keep up with that. So um the newer smoke detectors, I think it was 2024 is the latest kind of round of requirements, and it's they've kind of sped up their um sensing process to deal with how fast couches combust and things like that, things start to go up. So um they've gotten a lot better, and do and even um the one you know, false alarms where you get a little dust or something in there, um, they've gotten a lot of a lot better at sensing smoke versus that and going off. Um yeah, bedrooms uh within 26 feet of of a bedroom door in a hallway. Um kitchens, maybe this is why the the 50% of all residential structure fires in America are kitchen fires, is because nobody wants a smoke alarm in their kitchen because somebody pulled the alarm out, the battery out of those toast. Recommendation is six to ten feet from appliances, but if you I if you can figure out uh maybe I don't know. You don't want it to always have the battery out of it and be unhooked. Of course, right. So you want it to make it to make sense, but um highest percentage of of kitchen fires are unattended. So big thing is just make sure you're around when you're cooking something, you know. Um don't fry a turkey in your house. Deep fat fry a turkey inside your house. You know, um and culture, I guess I'm kind of don't want to get too far off track with the residential stuff, but culture in America has changed a lot too, you know, with um with a lot of different immigration cultures moving in and people from other countries. And they might be they might have a tradition in their country where they cook a certain way, you know, and their building materials and construction is 100% different than what they're living in now in the United States, but their their cooking habits haven't changed because you know that's important to them. So they're they're they're cooking a certain way that's and could increase the the fire risk, you know. Unwittingly. Yeah. So that's another big a big part of that.
SPEAKER_05Um you you mentioned that um so second to cooking was uh was electrical issues. Heating, right? Oh, heating and then electrical. Uh well to skip overheating for a moment would be uh when when you're doing investigations that are uh electrical in nature as to as far as the source is concerned, where where is it where is the system going wrong typically?
SPEAKER_00That's uh or is there a typical yeah um I'd say just probably obviously overloaded circuits are a big thing, you know, extension cords.
SPEAKER_05I was gonna I was gonna ask if it if it has to do more with with the system as it was installed, the permanent system, or does it have more to do with how we're how we're using it as homeowners and what we're what we're plugging into those systems?
SPEAKER_00It can it can truly be both, honestly. You know, there's there's do-it-yourself home people installing new lights and new things like that, and they're just yeah, not that you can't YouTube university everything, but you just gotta be careful, you know. Most most of us have an electrician that's a friend. The guy at Home Depot said to do it this way. That's right. Right? So there might be pinching wires against something they shouldn't be doing, or yeah, or or something like that. So you um and uh or you know, plugging way too many things into a a circuit that wasn't meant to be, you know, on that 15 amp plug. Uh you know, you got a bunch of stuff plugged into it, but it's just that plug's not rated for that, all that stuff. Um you know, I'd say if you have appliances that that use a lot of energy, they need to be on a dedicated plug, their own dedicated plug. Yeah, especially space heaters and things like that. Or electric vehicles now. So you want to get into a trend that's scary. Yeah, the E the EV or uh lithium ion fires in general is kind of a new scary trend.
SPEAKER_05And those are really interesting to learn about. And I think we we recently had a uh uh an electrical code conference for the state that um uh I attended. And yeah, they were talking about the I think they call it thermal runaway with with those uh battery systems. And essentially it's the the chemical reaction is creating its own uh I don't think it was necessarily oxygen, but it's it's creating its own fuel source as it's burning. Right? Yeah. And so you get these battery fires that are they don't even need an outside source of uh of of oxygen. It's it's feeding itself and so they can just well they can run away.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, these lithium-ion battery packs are are just layers and layers, they call a jelly roll of of ion or iod cathode, you know, with with liquid, that's an electrolyte liquid inside that's very volatile, flammable liquid. And so when that if if you get damage to your to your lithium-ion battery, or you've overheated it because you you know you bought something that just didn't meet good standards, right? And so it's gonna be prone to overheating. Well, yeah, then that that gets to the point where it can't come back from. It's not cooling down, it's just it's just heating up. And so now you're getting that charge, you know, connection inside that battery that just goes into that what's called thermal runway until it expands and has to release, and it can release in a very violent way. And that's the scary part about it, is because it's a it's a lot of talk, very, very toxic smoke followed by uh an ignition, and the ignition can look like a a torch, you know, and we're all carrying around these potential explosion explosive devices, uh, battery packs and things like that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it wasn't one of the major manufacturers just a few years ago was having I think they had a recall or something like that. A bunch of them were blowing up on planes and blowing up.
SPEAKER_05Oh, is that right?
SPEAKER_00And I that'd be a uh advice that I would have to anybody looking to buy. I mean, we all have lithium ions changed the world, right? I mean, they're they're good batteries. I mean, um, but look if you're gonna buy something, maybe look at the look at the recall, government recall website um and see if your items on there for that uh certain fire risk purpose, you know, things like that. And then um I don't know. There's the buying stuff at the cheap get in place, you know, that it's just not gonna be it held to any sort of a standard. And so um the way those batteries are manufactured, there's there is a standard how they're supposed to be manufactured, and there are a lot of aftermarket batteries that aren't they're way cheaper, and they're cheaper for a reason because they're not built to those standards, and they're really prone to those cross connection circuits inside, yeah. And you know, they can put them in a thermal runaway. So yeah, the the scary it's scary to have, you know, kids love the Christmas gift of a little hoverboard, but those, you know, those are some of the worst, or historically lately been some of the worst um things to go into thermal runway is they're plugged into the charger. Oh, really? Yeah. And a lot of people plug those in their bedrooms or in the living room. Those little two-wheel deals. Oh, interesting. And then how many electric bikes do we have now that are they're the most amazing thing in the world, but they're you're plugging them in your garage or you know, you can go on YouTube and find tons of cool videos of well fires from we plug our batteries in and walk away.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And so right if it's in the garage or in the bedroom and you're not in there, it's it's it's uh involved before you can, you know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, a good habit would be even on the the the higher-end manufacturers of cordless tools and stuff like that, they've they've got safety systems built into those, but uh a good habit would be always to go take that off the charger, even you know, don't let it sit on the charger.
SPEAKER_01Well, in the old days, the uh um rechargeable anything, if you left it on the charger, it'd kill the battery. Yeah, you know, so I don't know if that's the case anymore, but I'm still in the habit of of going back to check on it and unplugging it.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. And you you mentioned extension cords too. That's a big thing we call out in in inspections.
SPEAKER_00Can you yeah, I'd say probably both sides, huh? Probably on your yeah.
SPEAKER_05Well, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's um I mean, hopefully I'm not showing up to a you know, a licensed electrician's work and he's integrating extension cords into the work.
SPEAKER_00But going back to getting them at the git in place, you know, the cheap place. Yeah, well, this is such a good deal on a hundred-foot extension cord, but it's not gonna be rated for it's more the uh the um the homeowner doing the job and that kind of stuff.
SPEAKER_01I cut the end off of the extension cord and it worked just fine.
SPEAKER_00Or it's not you know, it's not rated for my outdoor uh refrigerator or my uh fridge that I have on the deck now that's plugged into an outlet or somewhere, you know, it's just it's gonna overheat, it's just not rated for it. So um in the commercial world, extension cords have a uh limitation. You know, you're only supposed to use those temporary 90 days at the max. You know, try to try to find a power strip that's long enough to to plug directly into if you need that distance. But for the most part, if you your appliances really should be plugged into a dedicated outlap.
SPEAKER_01We see them through walls, above suspended ceilings, we see them all over the place.
SPEAKER_05The worst I ever saw was uh uh it was a cabin a gentleman had built pretty much completely by himself, and he wired it all himself as well. And when you took the the dead front covers off of the panels, you quickly realized that running panel to panel in the wall cavity were spliced in extension cords that he had integrated into. That wasn't the one we had a snowmobile into, was it? No, that was not the same one. But he had uh yeah, essentially the wiring in the walls themselves. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we're we're we're extension cord material, and that was that was something else because that that wasn't as easy as just unplugging it and you know using what was there. It was you gotta rewire some things.
SPEAKER_00So it's seen a lot of yeah, seen a lot of overloaded uh extension quarters be the cause of the fire. Going back to the wood stove stuff, another key thing um is you know obviously get your chimney checked, but the stuff you put around your wood stove, combustible stuff like that, um keep that stuff three feet away. Yeah. Um if you're gonna get rid of your ashes, make sure you put them in a metal container and don't go set them on your wood deck. Yeah. Um yeah, get those, you know, run them under the garden hose or get them well away from your house, anything combustible, you know. Um even if it's been a couple days. Even if it's been a couple days, yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05So is that where you see most of the in that number two spot for for heating as far as causes is mostly around solid fuel heating sources? Or do you also see issues with natural gas and and propane heating appliances being a an issue?
SPEAKER_00Um Montana, I'd say majority is gonna be that chimney fire. Yeah. Yeah, we're just we're we're we're wood burners, you know. Something about that cozy radiant heat that we love. Um surprisingly, not a lot on the on the gas, you know, side of things. In fact, even on the the kitchen fire statistics, most anything that had to do with the range was mostly electric. And I don't know if that's just what was the majority of kitchens have electric in them versus gas suppliances, but you know, I would think I would think that you know gas would be worse because you know, if we're cooking our oils and stuff like that, man, there's a direct flame impingement uh possibility. If I get a drip, you know, I know I know how I know what a hamburger grease will do in my barbecue or how fast that'll turn into a flame. Yeah, but on the stove, you know, if I get a little bit of grease on an open flame, you'd think that would be a big thing. But um, well yeah, electric stoves are you just heat that oil to its uh smoke point where it starts putting off those flammable vapors. I mean it's it'll it can ignite under any right conditions.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I would almost actually suspect on the heating side that you know electric heating in baseboards and unit heaters, especially older units, might might contribute more. I don't know if that on your end really gets classified as heating versus electrical, but uh that'd be a couch fire half the time.
SPEAKER_01Right up putting furniture up against it. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you should really try to. Yeah, so it's like it goes back to the space heater thing. You should really try to keep those on uh three anything combustible three feet away from those. Try to get uh space heater that's got a UL this thing, right? Um But my curtains hang over it. Yeah. Or the tip over has a tip over safety switch, which I think a lot of them do now, but um making sure that if it does tip over, it can't just overheat on some of them.
SPEAKER_01Um that might be a requirement now. I think they all come that way, but but the old ones don't. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And the other thing uh with heat, I guess, would be in Montana, especially is everybody's got pets, or you know, they might have the new little baby chickens. And so we've seen uh seen uh quite a few fires that have been caused by heat lamps. You know, they'll they'll put a little spot in their garage with some straw and some stuff like that, and they'll put those heat lamps on those chickens and and cook them. You know, or they might just have their they might just have their child do it and said, Hey, yeah, make sure they're it's plugged in. But yeah, all that stuff really should three feet's kind of the the golden rule about anything uh being away from combustibles when it comes to that kind of stuff. So barbecuers on your porch, uh smokers on your porch really should be five to ten feet away from your walls. Not right up against it? No, I surprises me too when I what I read. Especially with the vinyl sighting. I love that big black mark on their wall.
SPEAKER_05And I see uh and that always makes me question so because you'll have gas stoves or gas fireplace inserts with uh instead of a B vent that goes up through a a chimney through the roof, it's a direct vent, and so it goes straight out a sidewall right behind the unit. And nine times out of ten, you know, you're getting you know, black discoloration and peeling paint, and right above those. Um the best is when it's right under uh vented soffit. Right under the soffit, yeah. Yeah. And I just can't, you know, I can't get around that there's not more surface protection requirements for for those.
SPEAKER_00Do you are you seeing like that reach the the ultimate issue of having like fires as a result of some of those types of I've I've seen what you've seen, um unless they've got something that's the somebody has uh put up right up against it, but usually they'll figure that out because they'll have an issue, right? Because it'll be blocking that vent. So we'll get some misfires or something like that going on. But um unless they're stacking stuff right up against the the wall, the exterior wall. I really haven't seen too too many of vegetation groups.
SPEAKER_01I often wonder if it's if it gets blackened because somebody put something against it.
SPEAKER_05Or that can be uh uh evidence of like improper combustion to like you know, the and ultimately heat causes oxidation and it breaks down, you know.
SPEAKER_00So um all long durations of that over time will start to get that ox oxidized look on our materials, you know, start to break that down, break those materials down.
SPEAKER_05We better start playing the plane here. Oh, okay. I did want to cover one more topic, if if it's all right. Um, so uh foam plastics, um, particularly in residential settings. Um, I know a lot of people are using spray foam uh to insulate their houses, and uh, but there are certain places that were not supposed to be leaving um certain types of foam if they don't meet a certain rating of flame spread and and uh uh smoke index uh leaving it exposed. But we're doing ICF foam foundations and we're doing spray foam all over the place. And what do what do homeowners need to know about uh the use of foam insulation and foam plastics in residential settings from a fire protection standpoint?
SPEAKER_00Foam has to be in commercial applications, it has to like spray foam, it has to it does have to have that unit that covering K-13 or something, you know that if it's gonna be exposed, it needs that material on it, or it needs to be covered by a uh a class A wall a covering of some sort. Um I was gonna say from from depending on the occup occupation or occupation, but the the classification of occupancy, but the the rating from A to C, you know, like if it's in a lot of businesses only require a C rating on their wall coverings. But um yeah, getting just getting a cover to where it's not susceptible to any sort of um heat. Um in the crawl spaces and attics, I'm not I mean everything's kind of combustible in those spaces. Right?
SPEAKER_01We used to get the uh uh not so much well, of course you're doing more field inspections than I am anymore, but um the the orange great stuff, you know, the expanding foam installation that you can pick up at any box store. It has a picture of a flame on the front of it. It says it's listed, doesn't say what it's listed for, it just gives you the listing number. And a lot of people assume that that means it's flame retardant. And uh I've had to several times pull a piece off and just light it to show them how well it catches fire and stays lit. How well it flashes. It's just a draft stop. It's not a fire retardant. Right.
SPEAKER_00Well, and I think that's important about anything combustible that's flashy like that. I think in the in a home or a business it just has to have the proper coverings to where the time.
SPEAKER_01And with that stuff, they're basically paying more for food coloring.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, well, and well, and even in a residential crawl space, when you get into certain types of foam boards, they're not they're not rated to be exposed even in those, you know, quote unquote un unhabitable locations. And so you may have a you know, you may have a crawl space where they insulated the the perimeter with a with some kind of blue board, you know, insulation, then it it may ultimately need to either be be covered uh or replaced with you know a fiberglass blanket or s or something that doesn't have the same susceptibility. But um yeah, I mean I think as that those types of materials kind of become so prevalent, you know, in our in our built environment.
SPEAKER_00Well the soundproofing stuff you see a lot now in commercial buildings on on ceilings and things like that, um notoriously have been in in the the a cause of rapid fire spread and and major fatality fires like the station nightclub fire. And uh just just recently, real recently, just this winter, um uh a ski resort in Switzerland, I can't recall the name or probably pronounce pronounce it, but the they had 40 people die from sound foam on the ceiling that ignited um during an event and yeah. Yeah very similar causes very similar causes. So things things like that are still going on, and like this goes back to that flashy, those open cell foams where a a spark can land in there and it's like a catcher's mit, you know, to it just holds that spark and says, Yeah, you're mine, and I'm gonna I I you know I'm I like this heat and I'm gonna and to your earlier point, the off-gassing that happens during that is uh just as deadly, you know, maybe more so.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, because it's harder to consumes. Yeah, yeah, long-term effects.
SPEAKER_00But we are seeing so many more products, PVC siding and um that kind of stuff back to that wooy thing, you know, having having fire resist resistive materials on your home exterior that are gonna hold up a little bit better to an ember wash of some sort or or uh radiant heat of some sort, you know.
SPEAKER_01Would you say metal and maybe fire cement or yeah, like cement board is really good.
SPEAKER_00Metal is good as far as that initial metal's conductive, so the radiant heat uh isn't as good as the cement board, but it's yeah, but other than that, it's it's gonna hold up to an ember wash for sure. You know, or flying embers and things like that landing well.
SPEAKER_05Well, James, thank you for joining us today. Really lots of good insights. I I learned quite a bit from from chatting with you. So I appreciate you taking the time. As we have over the years.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, thanks for thanks for having me on, you guys.
SPEAKER_05Um yeah, but uh what would be uh a message you would want to leave with the viewers just uh you know for fire safety in general and um what should they what should they take away from this if they're if they take away anything about fire safety in Montana?
SPEAKER_00Um check your smoke alarms. Yeah. Figure out a time to check your smoke alarms, do it the same time every year. Um change your batteries same time every year. And um it's supposed to be twice a year, but honestly, batteries last they'll last a year. Just make sure that you do it every year and you'll be good to go. I'd say that was probably my the probably the biggest thing is making sure that your your your bedrooms have smoke alarms, your hallways have smoke alarms, and they work.
SPEAKER_01Everybody who has a phone anymore has a reminder capability on there. You can set it to remind you.
SPEAKER_05I have categories of reminders on my I've I've even seen some online campaigns, maybe it's NFPA, um, but they do, you know, w with daylight savings. It's like set your clocks back and change your smoke around, you know, change your batteries.
SPEAKER_00And culturally too, it's because but goes back to some of the stuff you know the people talk about culturally, is different cultures have different holidays and different times of the year that's important to them. So um you know, find find something that's important to you that's gonna be a reminder to to you, like a holiday to change, you know, be consistent.
SPEAKER_01And if your detectors are over 10 years old, replace them.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's uh like I said, they're the new detectors are keeping up with new demands, so it's important to stay on, you know, stay ahead of that that curve. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05Awesome.
SPEAKER_00And visit your local fire station if you don't have a smoke that smoke alarm, you know, you can they will install it for you most of the time. Most of the fire departments have um funding or they get grants or somebody that will donate boxes of smoke alarms to fire departments and so they can assist people that don't have them.
SPEAKER_01They'd rather put an alarm out or a put an alarm out than a fire out, I guess.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Yeah. That's cool. Thank you very much. Thank you, John. All right. I'm ready for uh Sean Ryan show now, I guess. I liked it. Cool.