Can Women be Pastors?

The SBC recently voted against women being pastors. What does this mean for women who have a heart for ministry? How does this affect our perspective of women in ministry? And what does God Word reveal about this topic? We talk about all this and more in today's episode!

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Should women be pastors? We're gonna talk about this and a little bit about being a wife to a business owner and just the drama that's happening in the church, us as Christians, how we should respond, how we should look at scripture, um, positions, titles, all of the above. So welcome to the Entrepreneur's Wife podcast. I'm your host, Carly Rains. If you're new here, this is a podcast where we talk about finding purpose as the helper to our small business owner in this feminist obsessed world. And today we're kind of extenuating from part one, which was the previous episode talking about Jezebel versus Sarah. Um, and today we are hitting a hot topic where the Southern Baptist Convention just voted to remove women as pastors, ban it. And I kind of want to go into this. I know, you know, we're mainly business, but I think that it is an important topic to discuss because honestly, as someone who's never been in ministry but has attended church my whole life, and I started in the Southern Baptist Convention like denomination, and I have moved more to charismatic non-denominational assembly of God denomination, um you you know, culture, the mix of culture with scripture is just a very hard gray line to follow and to really know like, no, this is biblical, no, this is culture. Some topics it's very obvious, but I think whenever we're talking about this, this is where we get kind of gray mucky water. And I I kind of want to clear it and I I want to preference that this is my opinion, okay. This is me over the past week really thinking about this concept, thinking about definitions of words, thinking about what God's design was with these words and what scripture says, and kind of making my own conclusions based on what I've seen in scripture and based on what I see is going on. So the question can women be pastors? I think we have to first define pastor. We have to first define what we mean by the word pastor. And I want to go back to last night I was, you know, really thinking about this because I knew I was gonna talk about this today. And I rem I was thinking, you know, okay, pastor comes from the word shepherd. When you see in scripture, God is our shepherd, God leads us, God counsels us. And I want to also clarify, sorry, I'm kind of going all over the place. Pastor is one position out of many that you can hold in in when you talk about being in ministry, okay? There is what Paul calls the five-fold ministry, which is essential to the growth and the healthiness of the church. And he talks about five key members, five key parts to the church. One is a pastor, also known as the shepherd, also known as a caregiver. Okay, one is a prophet. The prophet hears from the Lord, the prophet gives warning, the prophet gives encouragement, the prophet honestly gives direction. Okay, they're like the pointer finger, if you will. They point on where God is wanting them to go, what he's wanting them to focus on, what do they need to repent, what you know, they're kind of the exposer, if you will, of good and sin and all that. That doesn't mean other people can't do that, but that's their main job, okay? Hear from the Lord and speak. Okay, so that's the that's the prophet. You have the pastor, you have the prophet, you have the evangelist. Okay, the evangelist is pretty simple. The evangelist is going out to lost people, sharing the gospel, trying to convert and bring people into the church. Whereas the pastor's main job is to speak to already Christians. That doesn't mean that the pastor won't ever evangelize because we're all called to evangelize, and we're all called to disciple. So that doesn't mean that the evangelist is never going to disciple like a pastor would. These are just their main focuses and their main roles. Okay, so the evangelist evangelizes, Great Commission is out preaching the gospel. Really, his main, his or her main target audience is the lost. Okay. Then you have the apostle. A lot of controversy about an apostle as well. Because some people think that only the original disciples can be apostles and yada yada yada. From what I understand, and I'm not going to go too much into it, an apostle is someone who is over pastors. So their main focus is pastors and leaders in the church. And they're administering and building up and guiding and leading those people. So they're not really hands-on with necessarily just members of the church. They're really focusing on the leaders and the pastors. The apostle Paul, for instance, he was over a group of pastors. He was over a group of churches that he his duty was to make sure that they were in line with God's word and following the Lord's will. And that's really what an apostle does. So their focus is church leaders, okay? And then you have the teacher. And the teacher does what a teacher does, they teach. And their focus is on discipleship making, really bringing children in mature Christians to adults, mature Christians, and building that process, making disciples. That's a five-fold ministry. And so when we ask this question of should women be pastors, I was talking to Briston, my husband, the other day, and I said, you know, I think there's this misconception that if you preach, or if you give a message, or if you give a sermon, or if you are invited to speak at a conference, or whatever, it is automatically assumed that the pastor position title and a preacher are put in the same category. Like they're meshed together. And I think that's wrong. Because a teacher can teach through a message, an evangelist can evangelize through a message, a prophet can speak and encourage and warn through a message. Like you get what I'm saying? Like, it's like we just can't say, okay, well, whoever preaches, that means that they're called to be a pastor or they're a pastor. No. Because when you look in scripture, the Lord is very clear that the pastoral role is to be a shepherd to the flock. It honestly, guys, if I'm being real from what I gather with what it actually means to be a pastor, it honestly doesn't have much to do with speaking. Because if you think about a shepherd, a shepherd, and see, this is where we we got it so wrong and so twisted in our church today, because a shepherd watches out and takes care of the flock. They're making sure that they're maturing and growing, they're guarding them and leading them in the right direction so they don't get eaten by lions and bears and different predators out there. And yet today we automatically assume: well, if you want to speak or if you want to preach, you should be a pastor. Or, you know, if you do speak, then you are a pastor. And I think that that's a misconception of the words. Because all throughout scripture, when you look all throughout scripture, Jesus and God they refer to a pastor as like a shepherd to a flock of sheep. And so the question when we ask, should women's, should women be pastors, we gotta go back to that. I was reading this article talking about how the Southern Baptist Convention doesn't even want women to preach on Sundays, which is hilarious, guys, because for me personally, I'm not a very like traditional person. Like I believe in right and wrong and I believe in law and I believe in church history and all of that. But like, what is the big deal about the day of Sunday and then preaching on Sunday? Because just because you preach on Sunday doesn't mean you're actually following through with what your job is supposed to be as a pastor. Like, really, are you shepherding your flock? Are you a caretaker to them? Like, that's the real question of a pastor. You look at David and you look at how the Lord called David, who was a shepherd boy, to be a shepherd to his people and connect his people to the Lord, and really that that's the job as a pastor, is to make sure that your people are staying in connection to the Lord and to take care of them, and just I just get the image of a shepherd with their sheep, and so I just want to clear that up now. Personally, I I don't think that a woman should be like head over a church, and I'm not sexist. My reasoning for that is simply because of God's design of the family unit. Like I was thinking about this on my run this morning when preparing for this episode. God does everything in accordance with his design, and so we have God the Father, we have God the Son, we have Holy Spirit. They all have the same authority, but they have different roles and they have different positions. God the Father is a position, God the Son is a position. Jesus is always going to remain the Son for eternity, and God the Father will always remain the Father for eternity. So their title, the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, I think we can relate that to having the title of a pastor, and we need to understand that it doesn't dislike Jesus being the Son does not make him lower than God the Father. Just because we see it in our human mind as lower than it doesn't mean he's actually lower than. Now, he submitted to God the Father. Like he, when he was on the earth and he went to the cross, he did the Lord's will, but he still carried the same authority, even though he was submitting like a son to a father. And I think we have to go back to that of like, how is this representing God's design? I think uh I think something we miss in our today's world with mixing culture and Bible is we forget to ask the question, how is this representing God's design? Like we do what Eve does in the garden when she took up the fruit and she saw that it was good and pleasing to the eye, and we use our own interpretation, our own understanding, our own perspective, and then we conclude based on what we think is good, rather than say, Hey, let me set my beliefs aside and let me look at how this is representing God's design, because God is not going to go against his design, he's not gonna go against his character, he's he's not gonna go against those things because he's good. And personally, I think God's design always goes back to the family unit. Because in order for creation to continue, in order for us to be fruitful and multiply, there has to be some order, some design in it. It can't be chaos. And our first episode, we really talked about the spirit of Jezebel versus Sarah. And I think when you talk about women, there is in Genesis scripture that talks about you're gonna want to rule over your husband, you're gonna want to have the ultimate authority, and we forget. Hey, just like Paul says, the husband represents God the Father, the husband represents God, and we as women, we represent the church, and so understanding that, like I think going into that, that doesn't mean that women can't lead, because I'm gonna say I honestly think that women can have the title of pastor and be in it a pastoral role when it's not putting herself over men authoritatively, like being a head pastor, I don't think represents God's design properly. But I think being a children's pastor does. I think that still aligns with God's design. I think even even a woman being a youth pastor, they're youth, they're minors, they're not adults, they're still learning and growing, and they're still adolescents. I think that is perfectly okay and biblical. And it's funny because I was thinking about this, I was thinking, you know, we always refer to pastors as shepherds, like they're shepherds, like that's the language that's crossed over, pastors and shepherds. And I was thinking, well, God, I was like, were there any shepherds that were women? Knowingly, like people in the Bible, were there any of them that served as shepherds? And I looked it up and there was one, and her name was Rachel, and she married, I think it was uh, it was either Isaac or Jacob, one of the two. And she was a shepherdess before she married one of Abraham's descendants, Isaac or Jacob. And I think that's important to understand because I was thinking about this on my run, but I don't know, honestly, I don't know if like Isaac or Jacob, whoever her husband was, I don't know if he could really lead well without his wife. Like I looked up in scripture, and yes, Paul, I don't think Paul was married, I think Paul was single, but I looked up in scripture in First Timothy, there's a section for the overseers. It's called um qualifications for an overseer. And I looked up, well, what is the definition of an overseer? And it actually is like a pastor, like they're overseeing a congregation. Well, in Paul's description, it says the husband of uh one wife, and so it makes me think that the majority of pastors are gonna be married, and so you know, yet last week when we were talking about Jezebel versus Sarah, I had this revelation that Sarah, even though Abraham was given the promise, Sarah was equally part of the equation. So, you know, this idea of well, can women be pastors? It's like, okay, well, if your husband is a pastor and you're married to your husband, you equally are a part of that role. You might not be the one giving the message, or you might not be the face, you might not be the public face that everyone sees, but behind the scenes, you are a vital part. And something that I realized in business as a wife is you are so important when it comes to praying and interceding for your congregation, for your employees, and for your customers. Like, I gotta relate this to business, but it's so important, and I was just thinking, man, like literally, Paul is saying, your wife, when he's talking about the qualifications of an overseer, your wife's reputation, your wife's behavior, your wife's character is equally as important as yours, and I think in our independent society, we miss that. We're like over here, well, can a woman be a pastor? Can a woman be a pastor? And it's like, y'all, we are missing the the whole creation of the family unit. The family unit, guys. Going back to episode one, when Abraham's given the promise, it's not just given to Abraham, it's given to his family because without Abraham's family, he could not fulfill the promise. And so for me, it's like this whole conversation of can women preach or can women be pastors? Number one, yes, women can preach. Just because you preach doesn't mean you're a pastor. I look at Sadie Robinson, okay? She is a phenomenal preacher, but she doesn't pastor. She fires people up and lights them up. She could be in the teacher category of the fivefold ministry, and she has a business. I mean, she has a whole like ministry that she's running, and so honestly, I don't see her as a pastor. I I see her as she preaches, and she's a great evangelist, and she's a great preacher and teacher and encourager, but I don't see her as a pastor. And so going back, I I just I think it's within context. Like, I don't think you can answer the question, can a woman be a pastor just yes or no? Well, who is who is she pastoring? Who is she shepherding? Is she gonna shepherd children? Is she gonna shepherd women? Because there's women pastors, there's women ministries, and it's funny because I was reading this article, guys. We get so fed up about words, and and it's like, do we really understand like what the person is actually doing to receive that word? For instance, we're gonna get fed up that we call this woman pastor, whoever, pastor Sarah, and she's over the women's ministry. So we're gonna throw this hissy fit and get so fed up that she's called Pastor Sarah when she's over women. Okay, but if we change her title to, I don't know, director of women's ministry, we take the pastor off, we call her the director of women's ministry. Oh, that's fine. She's doing the same job. Like her job didn't change. She's still shepherding and if you will, pastoring and taking care of the women's ministry. So why are we getting so fed up about this one word? And I get it, I get that. You know, there are other denominations that have skewed it. Like there are in the Methodist church, they have women pastors who are completely over the church. And Paul tells us, hey, Paul says, a woman, whenever it comes to God's design, going back to God's design, a woman should not have authority over a man. And I honestly, when it comes to the church, like I support that. Like, I don't think a woman should be the head pastor of a church. I I don't. I don't, I don't think, you know, it's funny because Briston last night I was like venting to him about something. He was like, you know, Carly, he was like, he said, women are so, so emotional. He said, men, we would just get over it. And like it wouldn't be that big of a deal. And you're over here, you know, just all up in your feels. And that's not everyone. And also, I I just I go back to like marriage and I just go back to the family unit, and I just I just keep going back to that. I know everyone in the world is not gonna get married. Like Paul was single, and I know that there will be single people in the world, but Again, in order for creation to happen and honestly, in order for like the perfect picture of representation of the Lord and his design, I believe is marriage and the family unit. Like 100%. And so, you know, I was thinking like sorry. I was thinking, you know, like president, president of the United States. We, you know, in this society, we're like, well, when is there gonna be a woman president? When is there gonna be a woman president? It's like, guys, to me, it is like this war against who's the top alpha? Like, who's the top leader? And we're competing, we're literally doing what Genesis says. We're competing for this top position, and we can't be satisfied or content with just where God has placed us. Like talking about president. Oh, is Kamala Harris gonna be the first, you know, back in the day, a few years ago, was she gonna be the first woman president with Hillary Clinton? Well, you know, there is the first lady position. And so you have the president who, yes, has one role and does one set of jobs, but you also have for years, we've had the first lady position, and she also does things. I mean, she's it's not like the president's wife is sitting in the White House doing nothing. I mean, she has roles and responsibilities that she does, and it fascinates me because we talk about the entrepreneur's wife, because again, in our independent society, it's like, well, we look at, well, why can't why couldn't the wife run for president? Like, why did the husband have to run for for president? And we miss hey, the husband running for president still affects the wife, and the wife is still gonna play maybe not the same exact role as she would if she was president, but she's still gonna play a vital part in him receiving his presidency. Like, she's still gonna do stuff, so like for you know, the pastor role. Well, if the husband's a pastor, the the wife still, I mean, I recognize this in business. Like, yeah, I'm not at the job doing the tasks that my husband is doing, but guys, he comes home and we talk about it. Like, I'm still in the business, I still have a vital part in what I'm doing, I still have a vital part with my customers, I still have a vital part, and honestly, y'all, the marriage unit, like I firmly believe a pastor's wife is shepherding. Like, she she and her husband are shepherding the flock, the congregation is looking to both of them, and so I don't know. I just like I think this is stupid, honestly, that we are talking about this and that this is even like a concept. I get that that the Southern Baptist Convention does not want what is happening to the Methodist Church to happen to them. I get it, but again, I think we always have like to eliminate eliminate completely women pastors, I think is dumb because, like the article said, they're just gonna change the title, but they're still gonna have the same job description. Like, you're still gonna have women over women's ministry, they're still shepherding women. I mean, you're still gonna have women over kids' ministry, they're still shepherding and discipling kids. I mean, they still are fulfilling that pastoral role. Now, again, the head pastor over adults of men and women and mature or what are supposed to be mature Christians, yes, I understand that you need a male in that role, but I also firmly believe that it's important to have the marriage unit a part of that. Now, I'm not saying if you're a single pastor, you're in disobedience. I'm not saying that. I don't believe that at all, but I do believe the majority of pastors are married, and I believe that that is a key part of your shepherding. Your wife is shepherding. Like you're let's stop trying to be independent over here and let's remember God's design. Like, Adam needed a helper, y'all. He needed a helper, he couldn't do it by himself. Why in the heck would we think you could pastor by yourself? I'm sure any pastor would stand up here and say, No, I cannot do it by myself. I need my wife, I need my family, I need, I need people. I I mean, look at guys, look at Moses. Look at Moses. Moses tried to carry the burdens in the old testament of God's people, and God told Moses, or maybe it was it was actually Moses' father-in-law. Moses' father-in-law says, Moses, you can't do this all by yourself. Like you're gonna have to delegate. I mean, so anyway, that is my spill about, you know, can women be pastors? Yes, absolutely, they can be pastors, but I don't think they can be pastors over men. I don't think that's wise. I don't, I think that that um, yeah, I don't think that that's wise, but I think when a pastor is married, his wife is equally a part of the pastoring process as he is, and I think women can be pastors over children in women's ministry. And I think changing the title of a of your name, if your actions and your your duties don't change, why you know that don't make sense. So I think marriage and the family unit is very important to consider when we're asking the question, like, is this biblical? Like going back to like, well, what does scripture say? Because Rachel was a leader with her husband, and she was a shepherd, and that is the job of a pastor. And I think honestly, guys, I mean, this is gonna rub on some toes of some women, and it's fine. But I think we as women gotta humble ourselves. Like, we have to be content where where God has asked us to be, and stop striving to be as good or as high as men because this whole in culture there's this whole you know, can transgender stuff, gender ideology. We're we're trying to again compete for the alpha. And and it's stupid. It's like, why can't we be content with where God has placed us? God hasn't placed us as less than, like, I personally do not feel less than than my husband. But I also understand at the end of the day, my husband is going to give an account for our family. Like he's the head and the leader of this household. And so that's why I say I don't think that women should be head pastors over a whole congregation because I don't think it represents the family unit, which is God's design. Well, okay, but and I think we've got like a mix of culture in that. Now, that again, that doesn't mean that you can't if if you're if you go to a big church, you're gonna have multiple people on staff, and so again, that doesn't mean you can't have a children's pastor or a women's pastor, like but they it's it's y'all know how it works in business, right? You have like the CEO who that is the top position, and then it goes down from there. You have you usually have the vice presidents under that and the managers under that or the directors under that or whatever, right? Like, I I don't know if it within the church, if a woman could hold that CEO top-tier title. I don't know if that could biblically show God's design. Now, I I say that to say if men don't step up, and if men do not fulfill the calling and the positions and the leadership that God has called them to do, I do think God can use women if that's all he's got. So again, I think context matters because I look at the story of Esther. Esther became queen, and she, guys, she didn't have to become king to make that decision of saving God's people. She was queen and she was submissive to that role, but there came a time where she had to use her authority to save God's people. So, like, and then you look at Deborah, you look at different people in the Bible where there was a specific situation where God used women to do what typically women necessarily wouldn't do. So I I do want to make room for that, okay. But um, yeah, I I just think we have to humble ourselves as women and be okay with men leading. And I and I think we go back to this mission statement of finding purpose as the helper to our small business owners. Like, honestly, y'all, I feel like as women, we are called to empower our men. So, if you will, this illustration, we get our cup. This is how it's supposed to be. We get this is what I believe it's supposed to be. We get our cup filled from the Lord. So we get our confidence filled from the Lord. He encourages us. Okay, now our husband, yes, he's encouraged by the Lord. He needs to have his time and he needs to be encouraged by the Lord. But again, going back to God's design, I think it's important that we encourage our husbands and we empower them in what God's called them to do. And yes, should our husbands encourage us? Absolutely. But I I just remember, guys, I was trying to fulfill goals and dreams and aspirations outside of my marriage and outside of my family. And I remember the Lord convicting me so bad and saying, Carly, this is not my design. Like, I have created family to be empowering, I've created marriage to be empowering. You cannot fulfill the promises that I have for you outside of your family and outside of your marriage. It will not work, it will fail. And I think honestly, as Christians, too many times we're trying to do that. We're trying to get the promotion or get the job or get the whatever, and we're doing it and striving outside of our family and outside of our marriage. And we come home and we wonder why our marriage is disconnected and why we're not connected to our kids, and it's like, hold up. Like you spent all your time focusing on this thing, and you didn't even include your family or include your kids or include your marriage in the process of it, and that that's wrong. That's not God's design. So I hope this all makes sense. I just I think I think we really gotta simplify this and go back to what is God's design? Okay, God's design is to be fruitful and multiply, God's design is family, whether that's physical, biological, blood family, or spiritual family. Like that is missing in the church today. And Brest and I are really burdened and passionate about this. The job of like leaders in in Christianity, like the job of a pastor is to make disciples who go out and make more disciples. And I listened to I listened to a reel this morning. It was a video, and this pastor was saying, he was talking about how the majority of pastors don't actually make disciples who go out and make more disciples. The majority of pastors he said make attendees, make people who come and get a message and are dependent on them, are dependent on the pastor. Like we're not maturing Christians. We're just I don't want to go on this soapbox, but we're just wanting churches to grow, but we're not actually growing the church. That's good, that was a good saying. I might use that later. But seriously, we're wanting more and more people to come to church, and we're trying this this is the thing. We're we're speaking in a language of well, invite your friends and invite people to come to church, but we're not actually like growing God's people, we're not maturing them spiritually. I mean, y'all, it was so sad the other day. We were watching the movie David. I was watching it with a friend, and she's been in church for 10 years of her life. She got in church, and she was asking me all these qu all these simple basic questions about scripture. Like she didn't know, you know that they were Jews, and why were they Jews? And Jesus was a Jew, right? And she like why did Saul get removed as king? And why is David getting anointed as king? And like all of these questions, and I I just was so shocked. I mean, it literally like broke Bristol and I's heart because it's like, what are we doing? Like as a church, what are we doing? And one of my fears is we're gonna have a lot of youth kids who stand before the Lord. And by the way, I I I don't want to pause and say, at least at the church that we go to, but I've seen this at all the different churches that I've gone to. A lot of your youth kids go on Wednesdays, but they don't go on Sundays because their parents aren't going to church. So the only Jesus, the only mention of Jesus that they're getting is Wednesday nights. Like that is how important youth ministry is. Tangent, but um, and so one of my fears is that all these youth kids from all over the world are gonna stand up for the Lord and they're gonna say, Lord, I went to church every Wednesday, and I sang songs about you every Wednesday, and I listened, and but there there was no transformation, and I'm not saying Bible knowledge equals transformation, but what I am saying is don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Bible literacy is super important, especially as we get closer to the end times. These kids need to know what's right and wrong because if they don't, the devil's gonna deceive them. Number one, they're gonna think that they're fine. I think that's a thing. They think that they're fine because they go simply to a building every Wednesday night. But the question is, was there real change in their life? Did their hearts transform, like the gospel says? The good news says, I bring you something to wash you clean of your sins to set you free, set the captives free, right? Like, has that happened? Have they given their lives to the Lord? Is is God and Jesus really Lord of their life, or is their flesh still Lord of their life, but they got Jesus on the side, but they're still, you know, playing with sin. I mean, like, and my fear is the Lord's gonna look at them and the Lord's gonna say, I don't know you. Like, I don't know you. Like, it's great you went on Wednesday nights and you hung out with friends and you got a little bit out of it, but like I don't know you. There wasn't real change, there wasn't real transformation. You didn't really go from death to life. And that is the job of a pastor, that's the job of a teacher, that's the job of the fivefold ministry right then and there. Takes every single one of them to accomplish the Great Commission. And and honestly, I think that's what we're lacking in the church. Like everyone thinks, oh, if you want to go into ministry, you have to be a pastor. No, there's five positions, guys. There's five positions, and they all need one another, and they're all vitally important. And if you lose one, you're gonna have you're gonna have a missing piece. Again, we go like I talk about the family unit, I talk about marriage, but it's also like a pastor can't do his job without an evangelist, an evangelist can't do his job without a pastor, and and they can't do their jobs without a teacher, and the teacher can't do their jobs without a prophet, and a prophet can't do their jobs without the apostle. Like, they all need one another at the end of the day. So, my question for us is like, I I just really want to challenge us to look at our lives and ask and ask the Lord and really pray and seek his wisdom on like where am I missing God's design? Where am I being okay with culture and what culture says is right and wrong, and culture's values, and culture's perspective, and picture of good? Where am I implementing that in my life? And how can I start implementing God's design more in my life? So I I hope that this is encouraging. I want to pray for you guys, and honestly, I just pray that our eyes are opened, and I just pray that we see what God wants us to focus on together. Like, going back to business, it's so easy for me to see this. A company cannot thrive and do its job without multiple members doing their job. That's how it's supposed to be, guys. You don't have one person doing all the work and everyone else just sitting there reaping the benefits of it. Like, in order to make a profit in business, you gotta do your job. So, in order for us to make a profit in the kingdom, and I say that not money related, I say that souls-related, like we all have to be doing our job. And God's design for the church is spiritual mothers and fathers. Like, that's how it's supposed to be. We are supposed to build up and create, if you will, mature Christians in the faith, spiritual mothers and fathers, who then go and parent baby Christians. And they help disciple and build them up, and then they become adolescents, and then they become mature spiritual mothers and fathers, and then they go disciple another Christian, and then it's like this continuation process. That's how it's supposed to be. And I don't, I don't, I don't think we're doing that. I don't think I just think we're just going to church and we're just sitting there and we're getting a nice motivational speech. And yeah, there's some conviction in the message, but the majority of it is just let me just pat you on the back, you're doing a good job. I'll see you next week, and that'll be that. We go about our lives, we go about our jobs, we focus on everything other than kingdom work. We're focusing on all these earthly tangible things, and we're wondering why we're depressed and why we're anxious and why our life isn't thriving, and where God is in the midst of this, and then something bad happens, then we get angry at God, and then you see, you see, like we don't have community anymore. We're so isolated, and we don't have spiritual mothers and fathers, and we don't have someone to go to when we're struggling. By the way, confession is really, really important. I just want to say, um, we we don't confess our sins, we just hide everything. Yeah, we we are a divided, isolated church for sure, and we're over here debating about if women can be pastors, and I think we have other issues root at hand. I think we don't see the value in acting like a family, we don't know how to act like a family. Um, so we try to take other people's positions that look greener on the other side, and it's like, guys, why don't we just be content where we're at? Why don't we just celebrate where we're at? Why don't we start making a disciple ourselves? Start shepherding ourselves. Heck, at the end of the day, we'll just all be pastors. We'll just all shepherd. We'll just all help people grow. I don't know. I think sometimes the enemy is so good at distracting us on the stuff that really doesn't matter. At the end of the day, guys, are we really gonna get in a fight over if a woman can be a pastor or not?