Brother Yona Glickman on Hoodoo in Sinners PART 2

Thank you so much for listening! This is our final episode, perhaps for now, and we hope you enjoyed, and keep enjoying all the terrifying things we love. 

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Hosted by Manny and Jezmina Von Thiele

Edited by Manny

Music by Dia Luna

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:49

Hello and most interesting monster listeners. This is our second and final part of our interview with Brother Yona. We hope you enjoyed it. And we also want to thank you for being listeners up until this point. We're going to go on hiatus and we'll reconvene if we can find a good production schedule that feels consistent for you, the listeners. So we hope you enjoy and keep enjoying all the terrifying things that we all love so much.

Folklore Vs. 1920s Whitewashing

SPEAKER_01 1:22

Right? Now that's the folklore behind it. And it was folklore like that that gave strength and hope to people. Now I say all that to say that the early 1920s marketeers are like, oh, the hydron, and they would put a white prince, a white king, a white-faced king on the hydron label. You get the hydron from the 1920s, the old antiquated picture was an old, like strong-looking white king. They started the whitewash. So the marketeering began in the 1920s when the railroad stations happened post-Civil War, where now the catalogs is where you get your material. They've been marketeering Hoodoo for almost a hundred plus years now. But then you get like a surgence of different people. I don't want to name any to be too messy, whatever, but there's certain people in the early 90s, and it's still a pretty popping company now that's kind of on the decline, but still relevant that marketeers it. So marketeteering has long been a part of it, right? But we see that in anything. I mean, right? Jesus was like, hey, let's let's all bring this together and love God and be together and unite. And then eventually someone was like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But why don't we start charging motherfuckers? Why don't we start charging motherfuckers to start to start coming for that unity? Am I right, fellas? Like, just put your hat out and tell them we need 10%. Jesus never asked for no dollars. I know for damn sure. He never asked for no dollars. I never heard it. Not once. I mean, I mean, it was pretty interesting when he's like, Hey, let's love all people, and and and you know, let's come together under God and let's let's unify. And by the way, pay your taxes, give Caesar his goddamn money, motherfucker. Render into Caesar, what is Caesar's? I wonder, I wonder where that came from. Like, you understand? I wonder where you're right, you know. So then you start getting those influences within Hudu of the marketeers. And I'm not saying that it's a new phenomenon with centers, but what happens is when something hits the center stage, it's a natural thing. You get the people that are proud, that are a part of the culture, like standing up, chest poked out, like that's what we do. Look, we got some representation, y'all. And then you get the people that's like, yeah, yeah, representation, huh? Let me let's exploit it.

SPEAKER_03 3:30

And I mean, let's be honest, they always have been here.

Gatekeeping, Appropriation, And Authenticity

Blues As The Soundtrack Of Hoodoo

Mississippi Roots And Ancestor Methods

Grave Tokens And African Retentions

High John Root And Native Blends

SPEAKER_01 3:33

Right. Let's charge for that representation, and so that's why it's the best and worst modern thing. There are steps you have to take. Like, for example, in Epha, you have to go through a certain process, you have to learn a certain amount, you have to become initiated. You see, hoodoo being folk magic and not a high religion or high magic, has no initiation, it has no true elder, it has no council. Oh, we have the council of hoodoo that we all agree and we're gonna sit and talk. No, it's very divided. And I mean, we just started getting books on it in the last 20 years or so, right? That what happens is because there are no gatekeepers and there is no council of hoodoo, who can stop somebody from jumping in and appropriating? I mean, I've seen people, for example, online like in India, and they got hoodoo in their bio, and it's like, no offense, sir, but I love what you do, like I love Indian culture, but hoodoo is not Indian culture, and unless you sat with the nail here in the States, uh, I doubt that what you're doing is hoodoo, right? I've seen people say hoodoo and they're like in Scotland, and it's like that's cool. I mean, there's some magic there, but I don't think what you're doing is is authentically hoodoo, but who's gonna say something, right? So you get that everywhere. I'm not that's I mean, in some ways, it's a part of the human experience that that'll happen, but that's what sinners kind of presents for hoodoo. Okay, so these are just a few things I saw in the movie. So the first and foremost, the Christian overlay, and the fact that, you know, at least from the modern era and perspective, there was always a group of church black folk that thought it was some it's it was it was devilish, you know. Not always, but this is more of like a more 20th century kind of kind of thing, right? So the fact that Preacher Boy was uh involved in the church via his father, but also went off and was doing his blues thing, that in itself is hoodoo, because I will say blues is the soundtrack to what hoodoo is, and I'll give you some examples, right? There's songs, for example, I'll put a spell on you, right? That was a hoodoo reference. I got my mojo working, it just won't work on you. That's about a mojo. I never made that connection. He went I never made that connection, and and no disrespect when I say this term, when I say this term, I'm just repeating like the song lyrics. Some of the lyrics are like, I went down to the old gypsy woman to get a bag made to get your love. Like I'm paraphrasing, but that was up in the lyrics of like I'm going down to the worker, the fortune teller, the seer, the hoodoo, to go get this bag so I can get my love to love me, but it ain't working. Got my mojo bag working, right? Wow, then they have songs where it's like they have a song called Hodoo Lady. There's a ton of blues songs, so the blues genre is the soundtrack and the voice of the hoodoo tradition. It comes out of the gospel, right? So, first it's gospel. We're doing this nice music, guitar, and everything. It's about God, but then you get some people that talk about everyday life, the folk element, the folk magic. So, blues in general is the hoodoo soundtrack, and all you have to do is type in blues, hoodoo, lyrics, lists, and lists will pop up. The second thing that I saw is that it just being in this Mississippi place. I mean, this was like one of the hearts of of hoodoo, like right in the south. There's actually a little funny phrase that my my mentor will say to me when he's trying to teach me something, when he wants me to think about when I'm asking him, how do I do this piece of work? How'd the ancestors do it? And he'll say to me, This is our our little insider. He's like, We have a time machine, you and me, but the time machine only goes to one place 1926 Tupelo, Mississippi. Now I want you to go back to 1926, Tupelo, Mississippi, and think, How are the ancestors living? Why do we use a chicken foot to cleanse ourselves of bad juju, evil magic being put on us? That's because in Tupelo, Mississippi, or in these places, there were chickens running around their yard. And when people would literally come before cameras and hide the evil magic in your yard, the chickens would walk around and scratch it up. Therefore, the magic would be discovered, and then you can use that to then burn it, dispose of it, destroy the magic that's been put on you. You understand what I mean? So then it's like, why do we use chickens' feet? It's like first we we look at the old ancestral way, then we go back into the modern way. And so it being in Mississippi, I want to say it was Clarksdale, Mississippi, we ain't but a bus stop away from Tupelo, right? So it even being in this place was important. Then the next thing is the grave that he had of his child. There was a little stone on it. That was an old hoodoo thing that has African retentions that people would put broken crockery and broken clay pots and stones on top of graves to make sure that those who were deceased did not rise from the grave, that their spirit could stay anchored in their place of rest. That's a very African retention in Hoodoo. So, even as far north, you know, my my fellow Floridian, even up there in St. Pete, St. Petersburg, there are old black cemeteries that when they've excavated, that will have not only the broken crockery on top, but they've excavated and found original Tobies, which are like the word for mojo bags from the Congolese point of view, buried with people, things that were not brought from Africa because they didn't date back to Africa, but were made here that were replicas of what was done in Africa, right here in our in Florida, right here in St. Petersburg, not but four hours away from us. You know what I'm saying? Right, and and all throughout the south, you know, there are there are common themes like that, right? So that that was one that was important. Annie selling the high john route to the little girl, hydron the conqueror route is the quintessential hoodoo route. It is literally like a like a do-all kind of route. It brings luck, it gives victory over obstacles, it brings success, it brings mental agility, happiness, inspiration, empowerment. Jalut route, which is the hydron route, came into hoodoo via our Native American brothers and sisters, but it was soon adopted into our culture. Because you have to remember, a lot of what was had back in Africa, they were like, hey, we use this herb or this plant or this route for empowerment, for strength, but we don't have that anymore. So then when they start having discussions amongst the the blended Native American and black communities, because I know you probably hear like the old like kind of now it's kind of like a little joke where it's like every black person is like, Oh, I got a little Indian, I got a little you don't see that right there, I got a little, I got a little Indian, right? But a lot of that's true because the black and the natives really had a lot of overlay, you know what I'm saying? And so we have the black seminals down here.

SPEAKER_03 10:49

I mean, the whole the whole second seminal uh war was mostly because a lot of the seminals were helping uh free slaves from the Georgia area come down, go to the Bahamas where they were already free, like you know, like I'm on you, I'm I'm I'm oh yeah, and that's a common story, and that was just one example, you know what I'm saying, relevant to where we're from.

Mojo Bags: Making A Living Spirit

Colors, Haint Blue, And Spirit Wardings

SPEAKER_01 11:08

But then that was a common story, fighting side by side. We had a common enemy. Matter of fact, on a quick side note, it was so common that when they used to make Indian head scents before pennies, they had Indian head scents. The ancestors of Hoodo would use these Indian head scents for law keepaway work to keep away the law, the police, and the oppressor, because they looked at the the Indians as being our ally in the fight against the same oppressors, but they were warriors, they successfully for a long time fought off the oppressor, and so we used them as scouts to look out for police to help bring a warrior spirit to give us victory over these kinds of things. So that that was actually common. Like there was a great respect and admixture between the two communities, but High John the Conqueror and her selling it in the movie, that was the quintessential. I mean, if they were gonna do something to highlight hoodoo and like a piece of magic that was in it, using that root was one of the most important. They could have said anything. Oh, here's a piece, here's a little basil for you, he's a little baile. I mean, we use a lot of things, you know. The other term for hoodoo that you'll see more colloquially, especially amongst the Geechee, all the way down to Florida, is root work. And the reason why they call it root work is because we be quote working them roots. You ever heard the term, oh, that person done put roots on, they done put roots on somebody. That was another way of saying you didn't hoodoo somebody or you're doing that magic, and that's because we work with the roots and the animal parts and the curios that that are natural and botanical. So that was very important when Annie sold the girl the hydron, and the concept that she only gave her a pinch because the ancestors were enslaved, they had to make do right and work with what they got. There's a phrase we use in Hulu where it's like work with what you got. You know what I'm saying? So things that that like that. So the fact that she only gave her a little pinch is also something that's kind of important to highlight. It's like, oh yeah, no, here's a gigantic root from retreat. It's like, no, no, here's a little, that's all you need for your magic. That's all you need for your mojo bag, that's all you need for your candlework, for the lamp you're gonna burn, for the bath you're gonna take, right? So that was very telling because just really quickly, the the ancestors, when they would have a piece of root that might be expensive or hard to find, you know, they would file it down and use some of those shavings to pinch in their mojo bags and on their candles that they burnt, right? So that was also very accurate, like down to the detailing of it, you know. The other thing is that her making the mojo bag for him for protection, and him keeping it around his uh his neck. There are different styles of mojo bags, some that are made and kept to touch the skin, some that are made and um you know, you just keep it on you or wrap it around your waist, but a lot of it was also around the neck, you understand, as an amulet of protection. Now, the mojo bag, just in a quick nutshell, comes from the concept of a Toby bag. So some of the names you might see colloquially might be Gri Gri bag, Mojo bag, Conjure bag, right? These are relatively uh interchangeable, you know. And the mojo bag to sum it up, it's the greater sum of all of its parts. So, what does that mean when you make a mojo bag? You're creating a singular living spirit by combining pieces. Think about baking a cake. You have an egg, you have oil, you have butter, and then you put it together, you no longer have an egg, you no longer have butter, you no longer have oil. It has now combined to create a cake. You now have the greater sum of all its parts. That's a mojo bag. You will take the power from different herbs, the spirit of different ingredients, you put them together, and now you have one living spirit. And just like in the movie, the other thing is that when she was done praying over it, she poured some libation on it, which the libation of choice typically in hoodoo would be whiskey. Because we're, you know, we make whiskey here in America, and so the alcohol activated and awakened the spirit, and so that those were two accurate things. And then her mentioning that when he's like, I don't know if that damn mojo bag even worked, or whatever he said, and she's like, Well, you don't went through war fights, survived this, that, and the third, and you're still here standing, two legs, two arms alive in front of me because you it worked, you understand? But then the other thing that's really sad when he was like, 'How come the mojo bag didn't save our baby?' Well, Hoodoo doesn't have all the power. Something that my my mentors teach me is that there's a limit to power. Because if Hudu had all the power, slavery would have only been 10 years. So there's a limit to power. And I thought that was a good highlighting of it.

SPEAKER_03 16:02

But like, please, like, this is such this is exactly why we're so glad to have someone like you on uh like talking with us, please. Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 16:11

I I appreciate and you're a delight. Like, what more could we want?

SPEAKER_01 16:14

You're thank you guys, and this is fun.

SPEAKER_04 16:16

This is so human.

SPEAKER_01 16:18

Thank you. Uh, and I appreciate you both so much for this, you know, because I love sharing this, as you can tell, like I'm really passionate about it. And it's like I think it's it's beautiful to kind of bridge the gap, yeah, between the things that we have in common and kind of highlight the differences and what we have in common. And it's like, I'm just so happy that something like Sinners even highlights these things for the world's view, you know, even things that might not make the most sense. They were all very methodical, you know. So he wore a specific color. I forget if it was Smoke or his brother when he was talking to Annie and he he liked Stack was wearing the blue, and Smoke was wearing the the red, uh the red, the kind of like reddish.

SPEAKER_03 17:02

So it was Smoke who was with Annie. Smoke Smoke was the one who had had the child with Annie. Okay, but what I but I believe it was blue when he opened up the the I think so too, yeah. Like when because she she pulled open his to see his mojo bag, and he was he was wearing blue. You're right, he was wearing blue.

SPEAKER_01 17:17

There are two colors very powering to Hulu. Red is a color that typically most mojo bags were made in a red color, and that's because the ancestors would use a red flannel material as they would use what they had to and cut that out of their own long johns to make mojo bags. That's why to this day we still make them, and and you know, we'll use different colors: green for money, purple for empowerment, blue for healing. Like we'll use color coordination now, but typically most mojo bags are made in red still as an ode to the ancestors because they would have to cut those long johns, but we would also use red thread when wrapping our roots or or tying roots together because red is the power of blood, the power of life force, the power of energy. Then blue, especially that shade of blue, is called haint blue. Haint blue was made because that color aired away and kept away the haints. The haints were what people were like, Oh, are those zombies? No, she said they're not zombies, they're haints.

SPEAKER_03 18:23

She did say that, she and I was curious about that myself, so I'm I'm really glad that you're you're touching on that.

Bibles, Mustard Seeds, And Night Spirits

Crossroads Spirits, Deals, And Conjure

SPEAKER_01 18:28

Yeah, and there's some folklore to that, and they kind of mix. So he had on haint blue, and I will say it's literally a googlable color, it's literally that shade is called haint blue, and here, even in the south, I mean, if you taught at North Miami High, there's uh like this notorious house because my aunt lives on that block right behind the old North Miami campus, right? Where there's a big ugly ass blue house, right? How would they paint this damn house this bright that real kind of bright kind of blue? Yes, that's haint blue, that's haint blue, and you will see a lot of porches, windowsills, and and roofs being painted this color all through the south, because they believe that that color kept away the haints and evil spirits. Two schools of thought. One, they say spirits can't traverse over water, just like in the movie when he starts walking in the water, and then he starts to melt away. Two, some people say it looks like the sky, and because it looks like the sky, when haints are going near your home, they fly over it thinking that it's a part of the sky. Two schools of thought, right? Because I taught a class on this, like uh to capture to catch a spirit, where we talked about how to capture these kinds of spirits, haints, and boo hags and the difference, right? And so he wore the the protective haint blue, the other one wore that that power color of red, okay. A little subtlety there. But when she mentioned the haints, there's a concept within the folklore of Hudu and Black. Southern people and conjure that haints are pretty much like demons or evil spirits that will take form by taking over the body of a real human and they will slip their skin off at night to go cause torment and and make other people turn to haints, right? And and this will also be something that like the like grandmas will tell their their children like you better come in before the lights, the street lights are on, or one of them haints to get you, one of them boohags to get you, right? So that was like also the right kind of folklore that would keep kids in line. But the concept there is that haints cause their damage at night, and and so garlic and any other potent smell is said to remove and keep evil spirits at bay within Hulu. That was also very accurate. But the thing about them melting in the sunlight and her saying that they never get to feel like a sunset or sunrise ever again is because they say boohags only are active at night and that they need to leave into the the the darkness of night because if they're caught by the light of day, they will melt and die. And all you might see behind is like a remnant of what was sometimes just the empty skin of the human they took over. You understand? So that's why it was so accurate in the movie when they all start the light comes out and they start to burn and die and scream because the the haints can't see the the light of day. So some things people would do in hoodoo to keep away evil spirits or to keep away these haints and bullhags, is that they would put an open Bible, usually it's a Psalm 91 or 121 or some other protective scripture, under their bed. And what would happen is they would say that the haints are kind of prone to repetitive action, they would have to read every single word of the Bible before they're able to attack you. By the time they read the Bible front to back, it's daytime, they're gone. Another thing would be to put mustard seeds, another biblical reference where you know the faith of a mustard seed, mustard seeds are seen as being empowering, protective, faith-inducing, drawing positive, angelic spirits. You would put a bowl of mustard seeds because or or even like a little thing of broken glass, because before they were able to attack you, they would have to count every grain of mustard seed. And by the time they do that, the sun is here.

SPEAKER_03 22:35

You understand? This is this is incredible. I'm the reason I keep saying like this is incredible is because again, and you pointed that out in the in the beginning. And and let me just say first and foremost, I am so I love how incredibly thorough you are. You are you're very thorough and specific with what you're saying and how you're saying it, which makes it easier for my neurodivergent brain to make connections because I'm just I'm like, whoa. So in Dominica, we have a lot of there's a lot of like magical traditions in Dominica, and funny enough, my parents kind of represent the two sides of that in our colonial history. My mother is from a part of Dominica called Wesley, which is very British. It was where the British really landed, did their thing. So my mother is very proper. She'll say, I speak the queen's language, you know. So she never wanted us speaking any other kind of slang or something in in the house or something like that. Because she's like, I speak the queen's language, and we'd be like, Queen rain through us, bro. Like, what are you talking about? You know? Yeah. And um, and I was telling Jason, and we're gonna we're we're definitely gonna do more episodes talking about, I think, folk folklore in our respective backgrounds and how a lot of this kind of ties to the things that we're saying. Because in Dominica, same people who'd be like, any of that, I don't do any of that that hoodoo stuff in Dominica, we call it Negromancy, we don't do any Negromancy, you know, the black magic kind of thing, um, are the same ones who would do my grandmother, my grandmother would put open Bible uh right in front of the door sometimes when she got feelings, she would get feelings sometimes that maybe there's something around or something like that. Now I simply just thought she was being like, oh well, you know, uh if the Bible is there, then like it'll like, but I never actually thought about why she kept it open. And I didn't even think at all about what scripture she was probably having it open to. And you literally activated a memory of me probably nine or 10 years old asking my mother why the night before she put the Bible on the front, like she put it in the front porch, and she was she literally told me she was like, I don't remember the terminology that she would have used, but what she had basically said was well, if something was trying to come and get us, it would have to stop and read all the Bible, every single word. If we put it in front of them, they have to sit down like this kind of like uh obsessiveness about like repentance. She said that, and I remember thinking, man, that's wild, grandma. You know, and I just never thought about it again, you know, and rest her soul. She passed away in 2022 2009. Um, and here I am having this connection from what you were talking about. I'm seeing these parallels in elements of my own culture and and particularly my my my indigenous culture. So it's like this is fantastic. This is why I'm just I'm just I'm so impressed, I'm so pleased because I can see the connections now. Like, she why didn't anyone ever talk more about that? My family, like you know, like we didn't talk about these things in our family, and I kind of wish we did.

Practice Today: Clients, Oils, And Craft

SPEAKER_01 25:44

Well, I can relate to that on so many ways because in Jamaican culture, it's a lot similar. Like, I do have my family members that are like, we don't like they don't speak with that patois Jamaican accent, they'll they they speak what they would call the Queen's English, like you said, right? But also, it's one, it wasn't passed down as far as like this is why we do this, like there's a folk magical element, it became more religious in context. Sometimes people are just like, Well, it's just what we do, man. Like, you know, right? We just open the Bible and they gotta read it. Like, we don't know if you don't have an ex grandma. Don't got an explanation for you, but her grandma did it, her mother did right, and so there are similar things in Jamaica, throughout the Caribbean, throughout other diaspora places, even and all the way in Argentina. And I'm starting to see some of the different because some of this, some of the same countries like Angola, the Congo, which were one country at one point, were also taken to Brazil, to Argentina, and so even across the world, I'm seeing certain things. I'm like, oh my god, we do this in Jamaica, we do this in Hulu, right? So there's some of these kinds of distant cousin kind of vibes that we get.

SPEAKER_03 26:49

It's just what we do, just what we do, yeah. It's just like what like she would get a feeling and she wouldn't tell us what the feeling was or what you know, maybe she didn't want to scare us or something like that, but she would do these practices, and I never I didn't really understand why. And and as I was saying, like my parents represent both sides because my father is from the French parts of the of Dominica. My last name is Jerome. So, so in the French parts of Dominica, they're much more, let's say, closer to the earth than the the Britishy parts of Dominica where my mother is from. So, my mother's family, maybe you you would say they were more educated than than my father's side of the family, but my father's side of the family were mountain bush people, and they had mountain bush practices and all kinds of stuff that my father he wouldn't be able to tell you why, any of them, but these were things that were important to his mother, who is still alive. My, my, my, she's 101. And I'll tell you, we constantly wonder how did grand how did grandma have such long life, and there are things that she would do to protect herself. And I we never I never understood it. I just never I always assumed it was some some like religious thing or like Catholic thing because Catholicism is also really big in Unica.

SPEAKER_01 28:03

Um, I thought was like the quarters, the quarters of slavery that I I mentioned that split in the country is also split throughout the diaspora, and it's interesting that you're from a place that in your one country you have both adventures, you have the Latin quarters and the Anglo quarters, and so you literally can stand in the border and be like, on this side, the Protestant side, they were way more religious and afraid of those things. Exactly. The the Catholic quarters still allowed the three-fifths of a human kind of thing where they're like, Yeah, whatever, you want to drink the bush, but you're praying to Jesus, right? Right? The the mother Mary, right?

SPEAKER_03 28:40

That's still exactly as long as long as we're seeing you on Sunday, you do whatever you want, but as long as we're gonna see you in church on Sunday, we're all good. Yes, you're right. Exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 28:48

So you have that that kind of connection of both, and and that's what kind of creates the umbrella of hoodoo. And I will say one other thing that I listed is that when Stack, right, had the mojo, when his brother became the hate and was trying to bite him. Did you see that his brother got close but like got pushed, like he couldn't bite him? I saw that, and I was the mojo bag was protecting him.

SPEAKER_03 29:15

Unless I didn't notice that at all. I was just like, Oh, maybe he just can't bite his brother because it's his brother, and it never occurred because that was it's not his brother anymore.

The Monster: Power, Limits, And Justice

SPEAKER_01 29:27

Once you're a hint, you're not you, you're not you anymore. That's according to the lore. Like you, you know, you're you're possessed, you're just a shell. Literally, sometimes they will slip the skin on and off, and that's a part of the right, the the the lore, but you know, I will say that as a worker that still works with clients, so this isn't just like, oh, I do this thing, it's in my family. I mean, I'm an active worker, I mean, you know, like where we met at the Salem Fest, right? You saw me, we got to see each other do our thing. Like, I got to see you give your palm readings and deal with clients, and you're such a good businesswoman, you're such a good spiritual worker and a good diviner. I mean, I got to be in awe of what you do, but then you also got to see a little bit of like my oils and right, like me, like kind of talk to my clients about what's going on and what this thing does in my kit. And so there was like the element where we got to connect on that by being at the Salem Fest together, and it's a living practice that I actually do for a living. So, so the reason why I say that is to say that the mojo bags are still something that I make for clients. I mean, I have a client that reached out to me today, the little girl's going to school, she's getting bullied, she's having a little hard time learning, and so I'm making her a mojo bag with angelica root because angelica root invites angelic spirits, it protects children and women, right? It's also the root of Archangel Michael or Saint Michael, some would say. I put an element of rosemary because it also is a great empower and protector of women, it's it's a little girl, right? And but also it's good for the memory, it's good for the mind. Then I put something in there called King Solomon root or Solomon Seal root because one thing about Hoodoo, as it does incorporate the Bible, a lot of the old testament figures are being used for their folk magical understanding in a lot of herbs, roots, and so they get nicknames and oils and products and formulas named after some of these people. So King Solomon oil, that main ingredient, Solomon's seal root. As in the Bible, he was granted to be the wisest man or the wisest person in history. God gave him all the wisdom. We use Solomon's seal root and King Solomon oil and powders and baths and formulas to give us wisdom, good decision making, but to help students retain knowledge and wisdom. So I so I'm making this mojo bag, for example, with these three elements and sending it off, you know, to the mother, you know, my who's my client, and she'll be just like how in the movie, she'll be wearing it around her neck every so often because it's a living spirit. She'll take a vial of the oil I send her, the conjure oil, she'll be feeding the spirit of that, she'll keep it around her neck, and that will allow that extra element of protection, retaining knowledge, keeping wisdom, making good decisions. You understand? And so it's like this is still something we do. I mean, I had my mojo bag in my pocket talking to you when you saw the rush of people. Because listen, like you know, Jez, you can attest to this. Our two tables were the busiest two tables. They were, I mean, they were honest, like, right? If they weren't getting a palm reading, they were buying an oil for my table. You understand? Like, y'all are also both cute, man. Could it also just be that y'all are both just real, real, real wealthy together people? That could not be part of it. Well, I think I was lucky because she's the beautiful one. They brought they came to her and I was like, Hey, before you leave, brother, before you leave, come talk to me. You know what I'm saying? So thank God she was there, right? You know, drawing them all in with that beautiful smile. But you see what I'm saying? It was a part of that energy that we had, and like the mojo bad, the the things that we have, like that the things that were working, the the magnetic kind of thing. It's like people could feel what's real. Yeah, it wasn't a bunch of showmanship, it was like authentic. I mean, our two tables were the simplest, too. What was funny is they had bells and whistles and fucking banners, and you know, not the knocking. I mean, but they had their shit laid. I just had a couple African cloths and my shit on it, and I know you had a beautiful cloth, your books there, you were saying, and people were honest because they felt the authenticity, the simplicity was the power, right? And so that's just kind of like an ode to what Hulu is. That's an ode to to the bridging the gap on on what you do and how it's similar to what Hulu and Conjure is. You understand?

SPEAKER_04 33:54

Yeah, both books magics, and there's some interesting parallels as you're sharing, where I'm like, wow, I do I know about this through my Romani ancestry because there's parallels that were happening there, or are they just very similar practices because they're just similar, like so interesting.

SPEAKER_01 34:11

Yeah, when when we see different groups of people agree on certain elements, we start to come to what we can look at as a universal truth. Like, for example, in Hudu, as well as Chinese folk magic, Romani magic, you know, magic and beliefs from everywhere in the world, we see that everybody kind of believes that there's a spirit or spirits at the crossroads, for example. People that have never contacted each other. So if you believe that way over there, and I we believe that way over here, but we've never really talked, we're starting to look at some universal truths. So some of the things that I say that might be like, Oh my god, we do this in in the Caribbean, oh my god, we do this in Romani culture. Maybe there is a little bit of assimilation at some point, but before the world became so small with the internet and and airplanes and whatnot, I would say that some of these are just universal truths that the the ancestors kind of figured out on their spiritual journey, you know.

SPEAKER_03 35:10

The crossroads in particular, right? Like, you know, like you know, you met uh like obviously personally, also being a former musician, I played piano for about eight years. My brother is a lifelong guitar player, so you know, I've always heard everything about, you know, like I met the devil at the crossroads. I sold my soul to be able to play my music. And this is these are these are things that I heard, you know, since I was very young, not knowing that these had like like elements of um, you know, some of this, these, these different belief systems and cultural systems, and the way that they've kind of made their way into blues music, you know, and and and you know, Robert Johnson literally selling his soul at the crossroads.

SPEAKER_01 35:51

Concept of selling my soul to the devil. You see, every culture, and especially in a lot of African cultures, like for example, here you see these black and red represents Eshu, Eshu, or some would say Eshu Alegwa, or in Santaria, just Elegwa. He's the crossroad deity. So black and red is the power color of the Congolese, of Ipha, different uh pan-African beliefs of the person or the spirit at the crossroads. They believe that he was represented by a dark figure, he was a trickster spirit, he loves to play games, but he opens and closes the road. When the Christian overlay happened, they lost the name of Eshu or lost the name of the deity. So they just said the devil. It's not the Christian devil that we think about, the Baphomet, right? You know, but it was the devil because he's the dark individual, he's the unseen trickster force that we can't quite get a grip on. And selling your soul is a very classic hoodoo thing of I'm just gonna go make a little deal with the spirit. Because the thing about hoodoo, why it's called conjure, con in uh Latin means with jure is to make agreement with spirit, con jure, or conjure, as we say in English, is making agreements with spirits. When I'm calling on the spirit of the Urb, I'm just making an agreement for it to do this thing with me. Let's make a pact that you will protect me, let's make a pact that you will empower me. I'll feed you with this whiskey, this mojo bag. As I create you, I'm gonna feed you with this whiskey. I'm gonna name you, I'm gonna keep you close. The pact I'm making with you is I just want you to protect me, empower me, whatever, whatever the situation is. He just went to the crossroads sphere to say, I want to have the skills to play this guitar, I want to have the skills to play this music, and it's not a devilish thing from the Christianized point of view. This is why I say there's some Christian overlay, but there's a lot of African retention because it's not the devil as we would think about it from a Christian point of view, right? But the word devil became the I'm gonna go down and make a pack. Now there's a little mixture, so please don't quote me, right? And people can Google this. Tommy Johnson and Robert Johnson, one went down to the the crossroads to make a deal with the crossroads spirit, the devil, the black man, or the man at the crossroads, we call him in Hoodoo, right? The other, and I believe it's Tommy Johnson, took his guitar down to the graveyard and would play for the spirits of the graveyard.

SPEAKER_03 38:27

Yes, you're right.

SPEAKER_01 38:28

That's where he made the pact that said, you know, as I play this music for you, teach me all the skills to be able to um, you know, play this guitar, and he became a famous musician after that. Notoriously, he was pretty terrible, they say, before he went down and played at the graveyard, and one of the spirits of the ancestors blessed him with the skill. He made that pact with them. You understand? And so that's some that's a very hoodoo concept. Conjure to conjure, you know. Like if you're just taking herbs, throwing them in bags, if you're just taking shit, slapping it together, you're not conjuring. That's McDonald's style cooking. Whereas true conjuration is what Annie was doing. That old slow, you know, granny with the little flabby arms, cooking it down for 12 hours in the crock pot. She was praying over it. That's why she didn't say, Hey, just grab this, throw it in the bag. Yep, now you're safe. It's like, I call upon you in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. May the spirit of this earth be awakened and activated for this thing. I give you libation, I feed you, I call upon you, I light the candle as a light onto my feet to enhance this. Where she did that, and and it was in a quick scene. And it's like, if you know, you know, type of vibe. I mean, you could watch the movie from an uninitiated eye and be like, yo, I was a pretty solid movie. Some scary shit going on, some some cool black folk, some music, shit. Well, that was cool. Michael B. Jordan, why not? Yeah, you know what I'm saying? Handsome dude, see him twice, two characters, right? But but to if you know. And understand, oh, there were layers of intricacy going on. Yeah. Wow.

SPEAKER_03 40:06

Yeah. But um, because you're our first guest, Jez, please, if if you'd be okay with allowing me to do this, something that I would I wanted to be able to talk more about whenever we have a guest is to always end on a particular question. So we call this a most interesting monster because both Jez and I kind of feel like monsters in general, whether they're ones we're seeing on in movies or the ones we hear about in stories or in music or in folklore or whatever, represent something really interesting in the world, in our cultures. Everybody has different monsters. Monsters mean different things to different people, et cetera, et cetera. So, brother Yona, what is a monster in your world right now? A monster that, whether it be a concept, whatever it might be, what is a monster that that's in your world, or a monster that you are fighting in your world that you'd feel comfortable sharing with us?

SPEAKER_01 41:01

Personally, or uh surrounded around Hulu? Just you, you personally, you personally, in your life. That's a good question. One very big monster I would say is trying to reconcile with the fact that although I might be knowledgeable, although I come from a legacy, a lineage, a spiritual family, you know, the Porterfields Hansen legacy of root workers generationally, although my mother and her grandmother all came from doing this work and helping others, that in a time where the world is in such crisis, the world is burning around us, people are being hurt, people are feeling oppressed economically, mentally, socially, to try to make sure that not only am I representing what I do spiritually in the right way for my legacy, my family, and my lineage, but that I'm using what I have available to actually fight the oppressive oppression monster that's out there, and that I'm always doing things from a justified point of view. Whatever I'm doing, I just want to go to sleep at night justified and clean when I enter my home, and how I use my magic and how I spread the word about it, and how I represent it, and how I help my clients, and how I help people. And the monster that I have there is that as a human, there are some times where, of course, anger might take over, or I feel the injustice, and I just want to fight back in a very particular way, or I want to make sure that little girl that I'm doing the work for really gets the help that she needs, or that that mother that might not have the money, I still can get my service. I might still do these things. Like, so it's like the monster I face is kind of trying to balance what I do in my practice because my spiritual work is the center of my life, it really is, right? It's it's my lifestyle, not just my job. So being able to make sure that I'm I'm doing the right thing with it, I'm using it to really help the bigger fight, and also reconciling with the fact that as great as my ambition is to make a difference in the world, that I'm still limited in power in being just one individual, that it really takes a community to make this thing happen. And so it's just recognizing my limits, knowing that I really can't save all people, although I would love to. Like if I jump out the lifeboat to give a drowning person a place, then that's the end of the help that I can keep giving. So sometimes I have to be like, I'm sorry, the life, this lifeboat is full. I would love to bring you on, but you will sink us all if I do. And that kind of is like a tough monster to reconcile with because I would love to help every person that came to me, every person that is needs that, but not everyone can be saved. And so it's like making sure I'm doing the right thing with my practice, and that's something that that I would say is my monster because it's it's on the forefront of my mind in every piece of work I'm doing, and every client I talk to, and every step of the way as I'm utilizing this thing, that this this magic and this power, this knowledge, is that I'm making sure I'm justified, I'm doing the right thing, I'm fighting the good fight for as far as I can take it, but that I know that I'm I'm limited in that I can't change the entire world, but I can change individual worlds that I can then continue to change other individual worlds, and so it's more of like I can make a dent, I can make a ripple effect, but I know I can't change it all. And so that's kind of like a monster that kind of haunts me a little bit because my ambition to do it is like, you know, there's a thing, I forget where it comes from. I want to say it's a Buddhist thing, but but I might be wrong, where it's like um we're not truly free until we're all free. And so it's like kind of coming to terms with I might leave this world maybe with future students, and they will have students, and I'll be a whole gray man saying, Well, you know, back in my day when we made the mojo bags, yeah, we used to put real herbs right, right? Like when I get to that point, right? When I get to that point that I might leave this earth without having made the making the biggest difference that I can make, and that kind of haunts me, like, you know, is that I won't be able to change it all before I go. And that really, I mean, it might sound like, oh well, that's real, that's real cute, but it's like that really sits on my on my spirit a lot.

SPEAKER_03 45:42

Without a doubt, I was gonna say I'm very certain that someone will hear that, you know, and be able to be like, yeah, that's the monster that I'm dealing with too. And and I really appreciate you sharing that. Uh Jez, would you like to do our just last two questions just to make sure that we can make sure everyone knows what Brona Brother Yona's about and uh you know any resources he might like to share?

How To Find And Support Brother Yona

SPEAKER_04 46:01

How can people work with you andor best support your work? Where can they find you? How do they connect?

SPEAKER_01 46:08

Um, so my and I'll I'll send it to you so you can put a link if also, right? But my Instagram is my main platform. I also have my email address, of course. You can reach me directly. I put my number out there, it's like anybody can find, right? But at prophetic soul guideinc, right? INC. It's a little long, but so so I'll make sure to type it. You can message me directly. I mean, I don't just have a website that you have to go on. I mean, you can talk to me directly, email me, message me, reach out to me. I'm here to help, right? I also offer a free 15-minute consultation for anybody potentially interested in a large larger reading or any work or any classes where they can kind of touch bases with me directly. And I think that's a good way to kind of connect with people in the community and to see if I'm your style of worker. I mean, we're not all everyone's cup of tea, but if I am your cup of tea, if you like the way I teach, if you like the way that I kind of kick it, if you like the way that I do my work, you can just follow me, like me. I mean, the freest way of supporting is share my stuff, like my stuff, you know, stay in contact with me through Instagram. And a greater way of supporting is come try one of my products, come try, you know, come to my class, hear the knowledge I have to give, you know, like come just connect with me. So that's one of the best ways you can support me, support my community, and uh have all the links and all the good stuff for you guys, you know, uh in the description, I'm sure, right? Uh of this podcast. So, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 47:49

I'll make it really easy to find you. We're so grateful to you spending this time with us and telling us.

SPEAKER_01 47:55

Thank you guys.

SPEAKER_04 48:03

Thank you so much for joining us. Visit the most interestingmonster.com and follow us on Instagram and TikTok.

SPEAKER_02 48:10

Watch us on YouTube at the most interesting monster. Follow Manny at Dialogs by Design on Instagram.

SPEAKER_04 48:19

Follow Jasmina at Jasmina.

SPEAKER_02 48:23

Posted by Manny and Jasmina Fundial. Edited by Manny.