The Laughter Clinic
The Laughter Clinic Podcast brings a refreshingly different approach to mental health education. Your host Mark McConville, is an Australian professional Comedian of 25+ years who also has a Masters Degree In Suicidology from Griffith University. Mark delivers you evidence-based self-care strategies, curated research insights, and meaningful conversations that inspire, educate and entertain.
The Laughter Clinic
PTSD Rehabilitation for Veterans and First Responders. An insightful chat with Jodi Allen.
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In this rich, wide-ranging conversation, Mark McConville sits down with Jodi Allen— Former member of the RAAF (14 yrs) , clinical nutritionist, trauma-sensitive yoga teacher, and lead facilitator of the 4 Aussie Heroes Foundation's Triumph Over Trauma program. This is a very compelling episode.
Jodi's story is extraordinary. She joined the Air Force at 17, suffered a spinal fusion at 24, stayed in service for another decade, and was eventually medically discharged. Now Jodi works on the frontlines of PTSD rehabilitation for veterans and first responders.
WHAT YOU'LL DISCOVER:
The 4 Aussie Heroes Foundation & Triumph Over Trauma Program An 11-day live-in rehabilitation retreat for veterans and first responders with PTSD. Mark and Jodi have both been involved since day one in 2018. The program's unique partner weekend and 3-month refresh program make it unlike anything else in Australia.
The Science of Chronic Stress Why hypervigilance becomes "bone deep" in first responders and veterans. How chronic stress affects cardiovascular health, immune function, and mental wellbeing.
Trauma-Sensitive Yoga What makes yoga "trauma-informed" and why all yoga should be. The power of choice-based practice. Why 12 people on 12 mats can all be doing something different—and that's alright.
Buddy Up Australia & Tactical Nutrition Working with Queensland Police on nutrition programs designed specifically for the unique demands of active service.
The Big Announcement Jodi Allen joins Mark for a 4-part Life Skills Masterclass series starting next week! Based on the WHO's 10 core life skills plus mindfulness and lifestyle medicine, this series will be essential listening.
This episode is funny, moving, practical, and deeply human. Don't miss it.
If you've enjoyed this episode, please share it with your friends, leave a comment, like, subscribe, all of that sort of stuff
For More Info on Jodi Allen:
https://www.jodiallennutrition.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jodi-allen-944a76138/
https://www.youtube.com/@jodiallenyoga
Insta: @jodiallennutrition
For More info on the 4 Aussie Heroes Foundation
"Triumph Over Trauma" program.
https://4aussieheroes.com.au
For more info on BuddyUp Australia:
https://buddyupaustralia.org
Website: www.thelaughterclinic.com.au
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@thelaughterclinicAus
"If you or someone you know needs support, please contact one of these Australian mental health services. In an emergency, always call 000."
Lifeline Australia
Phone: 13 11 14 (24/7)
Web: lifeline.org.au
Suicide Call Back Service
Phone: 1300 659 467 (24/7)
Web: suicidecallbackservice.org.au
Beyond Blue
Phone: 1300 22 4636 (24/7)
Web: beyondblue.org.au
Kids Helpline (for people aged 5-25)
Phone: 1800 55 1800 (24/7)
Web: kidshelpline.com.au
MensLine Australia
Phone: 1300 78 99 78 (24/7)
Web: mensline.org.au
SANE Australia (complex mental health issues)
Phone: 1800 18 7263
Web: sane.org
QLife (LGBTIQ+ support)
Phone: 1800 184 527
Web: qlife.org.au
Open Arms (Veterans & Families Counselling)
Phone: 1800 011 046 (24/7)
Web: openarms.gov.au
1800RESPECT (sexual assault, domestic violence)
Phone: 1800 737 732 (24/7)
Web: 1800respect.org.au
Headspace (youth mental health, ages 12-25)
Phone: 1800 650 890
Web: headspace.org.au
13YARN (Aboriginal & Torres Strait Islander crisis support)
Phone: 13 92 76 (13YARN) (24/7)
Web: 13yarn.org.au
Music by Hayden Smith
https://www.haydensmith.com
Welcome And Guest Intro
SPEAKER_00Welcome to the Laughter Clinic Podcast with comedian and pseudo psychologist Mark McCombill, bringing you practical, evidence-based self-care strategies, the latest research in mental health, along with conversations that inspire, educate, and entertain. This is the Laughter Clinic Podcast with your host, Mark McCombill.
SPEAKER_03Jodie Allen, welcome to the Laughter Clinic Podcast. How are you going? I'm great. Thanks for having me. I'm so excited for our chat today. And yeah, so who is Jodie Allen? You know, clinical nutritionist, a bachelor's degree in nutrition, and you're a health coach in nutrition, and you do trauma-sensitive yoga teaching and diploma of counselling, and currently studying a master's degree in counselling as well. So uh you're a busy lady. I know. Many hats. Many hats. And and we've got an exciting announcement for our listeners that we're going to talk about at the end of this episode.
Why Laughter Helps Minds And Bodies
SPEAKER_03So before we get into all things Jody Allen, we start the Laughter Clinic podcast by asking our guests the same question centered around the saying laughter is the best medicine. So this is a saying that's been around for over 3,000 years, and now we have modern day research supporting not only the physical benefits of laughter, but the psychological benefits of using your sense of humor as a coping mechanism. So when you hear the saying laughter is the best medicine, what does that conjure up for you?
SPEAKER_04I think for me it's you know be beyond what the science, you know, shows about laughter, but it's the it's the visceral, it's the the physical feeling of it. And for me, whenever I think about when I laugh the most, it's with others. It's with friends, family, it's connection, it's I love that aspect of it, how it brings people together. Yeah, and like it, it's it's like nature's de-stress, you know, it's and you know, to quote the castle, it's the vibe, man. It's the vibe.
SPEAKER_01It's totally the vibe. It's the vibe.
SPEAKER_04It is, it's just, yeah, when you get together and have a hearty laugh with people, it's yeah, nothing else, you're not in your head, nothing else matters. It's uh it's a great feeling.
SPEAKER_03That that connection's interesting, isn't it? Because you can have the you like the connection that you have with your friends that you're close to when you all laugh together. That's something that you all share. But how you can also share that with a total stranger, and then you know, like if you're in a social situation or something and you find yourself both laughing at something, there's that spark of connection as well, isn't there?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's great. Yeah, can't beat it.
SPEAKER_04See, can't beat it.
SPEAKER_01Laughter is the best medicine.
Inside The Triumph Over Trauma Program
SPEAKER_03So counselling, so okay, let's before we get into the whole counselling stuff, you spent 14 years in in the RAF, right? And I should say say how you and I met, right? So you and I met for we both work for the organisation for Aussie Heroes, and this is an 11-day live-in rehabilitation retreat, which has been going for I can't remember how many years now. But I come in, I swan in on a Friday night and do my laughter clinic for a couple of hours, and you started by doing you know trauma-sensitive yoga and nutrition with these guys, but now you're actually the lead facilitator of the whole program. So, for our listeners who might not be familiar with the Four Oz of Heroes and the Triumph Over Trauma program, let's let's have a bit of a chat about that because it's incredible stuff what's happening.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, sure. I'm very proud of the program and and grateful. I've been there since day dot, since the very first programme. I think it's like seven.
SPEAKER_03Was it 2018 we did the first one?
SPEAKER_04Seven years ago, I think now. Uh yeah, the first program. And I was a visiting presenter uh for many years, and then the opportunity last year to become the lead facilitator of the program. So I'm there for the the duration, and that's why I'm furthering my study and that as well to learn and expand my knowledge and be able to be even better at what I do. But uh I love it, it's incredibly rewarding, and it's this bi-directional pathway when you're helping others, and it's helping itself as well in a way.
SPEAKER_03It's and this is this is a program that's specifically for first responders and veterans suffering from PTSD. Yeah. And and it's it's so holistic in its approach to the treatment, isn't it? Like all of the things that we cover in the program, obviously, aside from what you and I do, the trauma-sensitive yoga, nutrition, and the laughter stuff, but there's so many other aspects to it, isn't there?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, absolutely.
Equine Therapy And Group Connection
SPEAKER_04You know, it's very it's very immersive. So we're we're out in nature, we're we're walking, we're exercising together, we're practicing yoga together, we're you know, we're going to equine therapy. How good is the equine therapy? Yeah, with the GG's.
SPEAKER_01I saw that for the first time last year.
SPEAKER_03And it is it's incredible. Yeah. Like those horses are amazing how they how they pick up on people's energy.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, they read energy and they have stuff what I didn't learn about them, uh I didn't know about them until immersing in the equine therapy, as well as they have very strong boundaries. You know, they're like, you're in my space, give you a bit of a nip on the butt, off you go.
SPEAKER_03And then who's giving who a nip on the butt?
SPEAKER_04The horses. The horses, not the humans. Sorry.
SPEAKER_01You see them standing out there with the people and the horses just come up and start giving them a sniff, right?
SPEAKER_04There is no human nipping, thankfully. But yeah, it's they're fascinating. They're fascinating to watch, and there's so much to learn from from them. So yeah, it's uh yeah, I love it. It's very very immersive, and we're all through lived experience, yeah. We're all, you know, shared, shared stories, shared meaning and experience, and connecting over that and can help people that might be feeling quite isolated, especially in in their journey, as as we call it. Yeah, brings people together.
SPEAKER_03One of the things I I I really love about the program, and I get to see this firsthand when I come in on the Friday night, is the fact that so the participants run it start on a Monday morning and they're till the following Friday, but on the weekend in the middle, the partners show up, you know, for the Friday through till the Sunday night and and spend us spend that time with them. And I think bringing the partners into it is just so important because that's one of the things that I I say to them is, you know, we like when I start the presentation when I say thank you for your service, and I want to acknowledge the toll that that service can not only take on you, but can also take on your loved ones. And I think bringing bringing the husbands and wives and partners into be part of that rehabilitation is genius.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I I don't know of any other program that has partners involved, but even for uh participants that don't have an immediate partner, they can bring, we've had bosses come along, we've had support workers come along,
Joy, Dark Humour, And Relief
SPEAKER_04family members, parents, aunties, uncles, best friends. So, you know, everyone everyone's included, but it can be really helpful for the partner or the support person that's coming along. They see a group of people, they're hearing, you know, similar experiences from others, uh, and you know, have a a greater understanding. We talk about the br how the brain works and you know, empathy and and compassion for family members as well as the participant as well. It is it is something that everyone, the whole family or the the inner circle goes through. So yeah, it's it's brilliant.
SPEAKER_03I love like getting the feedback from the participants is one thing, you know, but when you uh have like, you know, I remember one instance where a wife of a participant came up to me and said, You you've got no idea how much it means for me to see him laughing.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_03You know, because I just I I haven't seen that for so long. Yes, and you forget, you know, like that how something that we take for granted, you know, we talk about laughter is the best medicine in connecting with our friends and all this sort of stuff, but the amount of times that I've been talking to veterans or first responders over the years and and and it seems like laughter is one of the things that or joy is one of the things that is is a real it's a cost, like it's something that it's something that leaves them a lot of the time.
SPEAKER_04It can be frequently, I don't remember, you know, I don't remember the last time I laughed like that, all right. Yeah. You know, it's um uh you know, post-traumatic stress, chronic stress, grief, you know, it can really suck the the the joy and the laughter out of you. And it can be also, you know, in grief too, it's oh I feel I feel guilty for experiencing joy or or happiness here. So sometimes we can, as a protective thing, shut that part of us down from experiencing it as well. Or when we're depressed, yeah, it can be really hard, you know, when the dark cloud is over us to see joy or or laughter around us.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04But we know how powerful it really is.
SPEAKER_03Oh, isn't like I just see it on the Friday night when I'm there for a couple of hours, you know. Yeah. And and I and it's so cool seeing, you
Chronic Stress And Hypervigilance
SPEAKER_03know, you've got fireies or paramedics and police officers and you know, military people all coming together and and that shared laughter with those and I gotta tell you, like they got a great sense of humour, right? Oh yeah. Because that's one of the things that we talk about is that self-enhancing humour, you know, like that using humour as a way of coping with stress and and trauma and and and and being a way to lift yourself up when you're going through some heavy shit.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_03You know, and and these men and women are going through heavy shit sometimes on a daily basis, you know, absolutely and using humour as a way to cope with it. And then when you see them all together, like you know, like I said, I just see it on a Friday night, but you must see that bonding from day one when they come in to Definitely You must be a bit emotional on on the last day when everybody sort of I know that Oh, yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_04Uh yeah, the la the last day is tough and the the last couple of days leading up to it, you know, we're really checking in on each other, on ourselves, and you know, because we do bond really quickly as a group. And you know, the carry-on is often the the energy lift after you've done your session on the Friday night, it carries over the next day and people are still, you know, pe you can see they're feeling a little bit lighter and they're bringing up some of your bad jokes.
SPEAKER_01Um bad jokes? What hey, what are you?
SPEAKER_04I'm sorry, it's really good, Karen.
SPEAKER_01Bad jokes.
SPEAKER_04You say it.
SPEAKER_01What is can't, can't, can't. I'm not coming back again. I don't know what you mean by that. Really amazing. What are you really amazing? By bad jokes. Really amazing jokes.
SPEAKER_02You love, eh?
SPEAKER_01I'm paying.
SPEAKER_02Oh, that's harsh. That's harsh.
SPEAKER_04I mean, I'm I'm saying that you Okay, let me let me backtrack a little bit. Uh what do you mean? No, what I do love is that often in the group, shh, stop. We have to do that. No, no, no, no. I want to know the bad jokes. Moving right along. Is we'll often have one or two, you know, they'll say on the first day, you know, I'll often use humour as a deflection or a coping strategy, but I actually, you know, appreciate them as well because they can lighten the the group and they bring humour out in the group in that as well. So yeah, they they help me in my job, that's for sure. Because I like to use humor throughout the program as well, because it it works. If you're all serious and heavy and you're talking about mental health, then it just saps everyone's energy.
SPEAKER_03So you're saying that you use your own bad jokes throughout the two weeks?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03That's see, I'm gonna I'm gonna take it that you said bad jokes is in, you know, because it we we laugh with those guys about stuff that the general public probably wouldn't laugh at. You know, like that's that's the thing.
SPEAKER_04That dark humour. Yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_03You know, and that's
Switching Off After High-Stress Shifts
SPEAKER_03what I say is, you know, when I'm talking to in a corporate environment, I say what makes a police officer or a paramedic laugh probably offend most people in general society. But you know, does that make it wrong? Absolutely not, because they're using it as a coping mechanism and a way of connecting with the people around them.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. And, you know, we know like the neurochemicals that just laughter releases, it's all that, you know, endorsing endorphins and serotonin, you know. Dopamine, all of those feel-good chemicals, so it brings us together and it's a instant de-stress. Yeah. And and yeah, it's very powerful stuff. So it's uh even when the jokes aren't there, leaving rather long.
SPEAKER_03Living quite a long. So one of the other things, so in your private practice, right? So you're you've got clients where you're talking about nutrition and and doing yoga and all that sort of stuff. There is a toll that gets like it's a toll when you're working in a high stress environment, isn't it? You know, so talk to us about you know what that toll takes physically and and and mentally. Like when you're working in a high stress environment, and it doesn't have to be in the military or first responders, it could be, you know, if you're an executive and you're in charge of, you know, 300 people and you've got to try and figure out a way to keep everyone employed or you're a business owner and that sort of stuff. Like there's a there's a lot of people that are affected by stress at the moment, isn't there?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, absolutely. We're in we're in very stressful times, and I think, you know, we need a certain amount of stress to, you know, to perform, to memory recall it, to, you know, get up and and go and achieve what we need to achieve. But when it becomes chronic, and you know, depending on the nature of it too, if it's quite distressing for, you know, what the first responders are exposed to on a daily basis, it, you know, builds up. It builds up in the physical body, you know, cognitive overload, and it just we get to this point where often in these high stress roles, it's just just keep moving forward, just keep, just keep going. There's no down regulation, there's no, you know, dialing down the nervous system. So when we're just constantly on all the time,
Refresh Weekends And What Sticks
SPEAKER_04in the mil, you know, veterans first responders and military, you know, we call it hypervigilance, this constant state of looking for threat and risk risk assessment constantly. And when it becomes, you know, chronically switched on, the the body, the nervous system, the brain just becomes stuck in this loop. And we absolutely must be able to regulate and calm our nervous system in spaces because that chronic switched-on wired state has detrimental effects to our physical and mental health. So with our you know, physical health, there's you know, cardiovascular risks. It suppresses our immune system. So we'll see autoimmune disease, it can switch on autoimmune responses and disease, chronic stress or even just acute illness. So the body really just it's amazing what the body will keep just sustaining because for you know, for some people it can be years, it can be decades of being in that, you know, go, go, go, push, push, push state. And then it's going to it's gonna crash at some stage. And how that comes up can be a variety of ways. And if it's not physical, it will come out physically eventually, but you know, mentally, it's you know, it increases anxiety, our risk of depression, as you know, suicidal ideation. And when our bucket is full and it's overflowing and there's no release valve for that chronic stress, it overflows, you know, and it affects our then it affects our, you know, resilience. We can be highly reactive to even, you know, the smallest stressor then. So and often, you know, people will say to me, I don't know why that set me off. It was not it was that was minor really, but that tipped me over the edge. And it's like, because your but your bucket is full.
SPEAKER_03And and that high that heightened set sense, that heightened level of awareness, you know, like I'll probably notice that the most with police officers when I'm working with Queensland Police, where you know, here's men and women that are on a 12, 14-hour shift, whatever however long it is, and that whole time they're, you know, whatever circumstances they've had to go through during their shift, but there's that heightened level of awareness
Jodie’s RAF Story And Identity Loss
SPEAKER_03as to, you know, what's going on when they pull someone over or they go to a domestic violence is a big thing. People uh I know that's one of the ones that police officers really do not like attending, domestic violence. Yeah, but they have to do it, right? It's part of the job, you know. So that that it heightened sense of awareness. And then at the end of their shift, we just expect them to switch off that heightened sense of alertness and awareness which has been embodying them for the last 12 hours. And you know, they're standing at a in line at a service station waiting to pay for petrol, and you know, someone behind them drops something on the floor and it smashes, and then all of a sudden they're like, Whoa, what's happened? Yeah, you know, and yeah, you can't blame them for that because like that's like I I don't know how to, you know, I don't know whether we do a good job of of bringing them out of that heightened level of stress and awareness to just be come home and and be a neighbor and a husband or a wife or a father or a brother or whatever, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_04I think, yeah, because they're basically wired. It becomes bone deep. It's it's wired into the brain, into the nervous system.
SPEAKER_03Which is what we wanted for them for their safety as well, you know.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, exactly. So very, like you said, it's very hard for for us to expect that they can just turn that off. And what tools are we giving them as well from you know, from the day that they recruited and and join the service, what no matter what service it is, is okay, you know, we're training you to be to be on and to be reactive and to be, you know, constantly aware. What are you also on the flip side of that going to do to look after yourself?
SPEAKER_03Is this something that comes up a lot in the program? That that inability to be able to switch off that oh absolutely.
SPEAKER_04That's like in the uh, I'm so used to, you know, when we're in a yoga practice, there's you know, people tapping their feet or you know, there's a lot of movement and that. I'm like, just it's all right, just move as much as you need to. And it's like, well, I have to be still here. Like, no, you don't, because it's become such a a barrier, you know, and it and it can also, especially when we're looking at post-traumatic stress, it can the the brain and the nervous system can go, whoa, I don't really feel safe with if I drop everything and drop the guard, my guard down, I'm not safe here. So it can be really, really challenging, especially when it's been, you know, a long period of time of just on and yeah, and high hypervigilant, especially.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. And with the program, so uh we run it for two weeks. I know we're going back to the uh the Four Eyes of Heroes program, but it is such it's such a big part of both of our lives. So, you know, and and so I'm I'm sure that you're happy to talk about it. Run us through what happens in a refresh program after after they we've had them for two weeks and then a couple of months later, three months later three months later they come in. So Run us through what happens on a refresh weekend.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, this is something else that's quite unique to the program. So three months later, we invite them all back for a few days and we get to just, you know, how have you been traveling? What has worked I've I learned so much about what works and what
Spinal Fusion And Recovery
SPEAKER_04doesn't work when we go through a refresh. And yeah, just being able to sit with each other and go, yeah, okay, I found X, you know, going back to exercise. It was great while I was on the program because we're doing it all together. Then when I got home, that that was, you know, pretty difficult to find the time for that. Or yeah, just different, or people going, okay, I just changed three things that you gave in my nutrition plan, and I've lost 10 kilos. You know, so we have some really rewarding feedback and experiences, and we also talk about the stuff that's actually that's been hard as well. It's not, we don't expect everyone to go home after two weeks and bang be instantly, instantly. There's no we're not curious. There's no silver bullet. We're not offering cures, we're not fixing it's management. You know, it's yeah, what what can you take home? What practical things can you take home with you that improve your quality of life while you're in in recovery and trying to trying to live the best life that you can.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And it's going to be, you know, obviously when you come back on the refresh and you're finding out what worked for every you know, it's it's going to be different for everybody. Everyone's going to have their own things that, you know, because one of the beautiful things I think in the advancement of of mental health tra at the moment is the fact that, you know, we finally acknowledge that no w no one size fits all.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_03You know, like you can't stand uh, you know, if you've got uh ten people all lined up and they're all suffering being diagnosed with PTSD, well, every single one of those ten people's experience of PTSD could be different. Yeah. You know, and maybe some people might not be able to sleep, some people might only be able to sleep, you know. Like it's going to be so unique for everybody. Is there is there a couple of things when you come back for the refresh that you've noticed time and time again has has been the biggest thing that they've mentioned to you that this this is this has been a a constant through line that this has helped?
SPEAKER_01I'm going to be very biased here, but it would be nutrition and yoga. It would be nutrition and yoga. Oh, what about the laughter, man?
SPEAKER_04Oh yeah, and the laughter libraries. Uh they love their laughter libraries, but definitely the the just the practical and and I think like I said, because I've been doing it for a long time now, working out what works and what doesn't work and not making it complicated. Like when I first came out of uni, I was giving multi-page plans and and and then I'm like, wonder why aren't they coming back? They're like, I'm not doing any of that. Like, I don't 10 pages of, you know, I was so excited. And now I know I just keep it really hit the big target, big ticket items and the simple changes that they can make when they go home. Because we discussed nutrition in the partner weekend as well.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_04You know, how as a as a family can, you know, you in improve, you know, diet and the for the for the whole family? What little tweaks can you make? And, you know, with the the yoga and nutrition and sleep, you know, because we we take dives into the science of sleep, we go through protocols of you know, sleep strategies and it's all all evidence-based. And they go home and start implementing some of these strategies, and they have big, big aha moments. Big aha moments. And I think the other one would definitely be the connection that the group makes in two weeks. You know, in the last two weeks, I've received, you know, some photos and some messages of participants that have gotten together, they've gone camping, they've gone cattleboarding together.
Discovering Yoga And Adapting Movement
SPEAKER_04So good scheme. Isn't that great? Uh yeah, catching up for coffee. One of our guys just has just flown down to Melbourne to catch up with, you know, he's Queensland police and he's caught up with a couple of Vic pol, you know, and the social connection and the support, you know, and it it does, you know, some groups kind of just, you know, after a while they might just off, you know, dissipate and off doing their thing. But after the program, yeah, the the support that they have for each other and the friendships that are made, oh it's pretty cool, isn't it? Yeah, it just I'm like, oh. It does, it does give you the warm fuzzies. It gives me the goosebumps. Yeah, I'm like, this is yeah, this is the best.
SPEAKER_03It fills your cup.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03You know, because I know like it I know that it feels mine when I get out and get a chance to talk to these these guys about this stuff, you know. So when I want to talk about how you got to here, right? So when when you did you come straight out of the air for like 14 years in the air force, right? Yeah. Did you come straight out of the air force knowing that you know you wanted to go to uni and and go down this kind of helping, you know, first responders and veterans sort of thing?
SPEAKER_04No, it wasn't it the path found me through my lived experience in who I am and uh me seeking more, me seeking knowledge. So I really my youngest went to school, so both my kids are in school, and I thought, oh, I I need I need something.
SPEAKER_03This is when you left the Air Force.
SPEAKER_04This is after 14 years. So I was out for a while.
SPEAKER_03And you because you were medically discharged.
SPEAKER_04I was medically discharged, had a spinal fusion when I was in the Air Force, medically discharged. I couldn't do my my secondary appointment was yeah, to be to be very active, and I couldn't do that with my back. So yeah, so I was medically discharged, and that in itself was a whole real challenge mentally with the loss of identity. I uh because I joined up at 17, I attached myself. I'm JD Allen, I'm in the Air Force. That's who I that's who I was.
SPEAKER_03And so 17 when you started.
SPEAKER_04I was 17.
SPEAKER_03So is this something joining the Air Force is something you knew that you wanted to do in school? You went, oh that's what I'm No. Right, okay.
SPEAKER_04Nope.
SPEAKER_03I was working on one of the one of the people from the Air Force came to your school and went, Wow, that uniform looks cool. I wouldn't mind wearing that.
SPEAKER_04Nope, not even that. It was my brother always wanted to join the Air Force as a
Trauma-Sensitive Yoga Principles
SPEAKER_04radio technician. And I'm I'm not even sure where he got his inspiration for that, but it we we knew that that's what he wanted to do. And I was working at Dream World. My mum was looking after the koalas at Dreamworld at the time she went.
SPEAKER_01So you're working at Dreamworld?
SPEAKER_04She loved her.
SPEAKER_01Well, I worked at Dream World. Did you? Yeah, I did. I did work at Dream World. When do when did you Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_03So what were the years that you worked at Dreamworld? Oh, I want to know what you did. Later.
SPEAKER_04Well, I was I was in retail part of the time, and then at the end of the day, I would dress up as a clown and I would I would I was a great clown, thank you very much. Why are you laughing?
SPEAKER_05No, no, no.
SPEAKER_04I would dress up as a clown and I would sell balloons and terrorize children in the park. I I'll have you know I'm in thousands of photo albums across the world. I bet the the print ones that you had to go and you know print off a off the uh the photo lab. Yeah, so whilst I loved, that was that was fun.
SPEAKER_03Um I I enjoyed my time worker there.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yes. But I Are you gonna share your story about working at Dreamworld?
SPEAKER_03Well, I got paid to scare people.
SPEAKER_04So they had a uh You were meant to scare people. I wasn't meant to scare people. Well, yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_03I got paid for I went to scare school. Yep, I swear to God, they it was two weeks of scare school training and uh at Dreamworld. So yeah, well it was it was the the attraction was called the Mummy Live. Oh right? Oh, right and it was one of those walkthrough scare attractions, and it was an outside company called I think it was Sudden Impact, they were called, and so they'd go around the world and they would set up these scare attractions in different theme parks.
SPEAKER_04Oh, cool.
SPEAKER_03Right? So I applied, got in. This was 2000 and I'm gonna say about 2007 or thereabouts.
SPEAKER_04Oh, jeez, yeah.
SPEAKER_03So yeah, I've I've like, you know, 38, 37, 38, and doing this scare school and fun.
SPEAKER_01It was great, you know.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and and then so we'd scare the daylights out of people, which was pretty cool. Getting paid to do that. That was a scam, I tell you. So and uh, and then when that finished, they set up an a three and a half million dollar laser tag arena.
SPEAKER_04I remember that.
SPEAKER_03Called Alien versus Predator.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that was so cool.
SPEAKER_03So I was one of the mission commanders, right? So people would cover it, I'd be like, hey, my name's Mark McCarnville, I'm your mission commander at EMEC. No mistake, ladies and gentlemen, you're entering a hostile environment.
SPEAKER_01And so I'd send 30 people into this into this laser tag arita.
SPEAKER_04That was so much fun.
SPEAKER_03And then I'd wait 30 seconds and then I'd go in and shoot them all. It was great, it was so good.
SPEAKER_02So uh yeah, it was uh anyway. We digressed. We digressed.
SPEAKER_03But I actually actually one thing I should divulge while I talking about Dream World. I also did suit characters as well. So I did you do Kenny Koala? I didn't do Kenny too tall for Kenny. Oh, you're too tall. I did you were too tall. I did Alex the Lion, right?
SPEAKER_01I did Alex the Lion
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SPEAKER_01and Kung Fu Panda. Oh, it's Kung Fu Panda, which was great. You love that wacha.
SPEAKER_03And the little kids would come up and hug you, and and and then they knew what was behind the scenes. And every now and then if someone was sick, I'd get the call up to go down into Wiggles world and I'd have to be Wags the Dog, which was great.
SPEAKER_04It is good fun though, because it's you you're you're not you can just let all your because I used to be a shy kid, and when I was a clown and wearing makeup and that, it wasn't no one knew that it was Jodie Allen. It was you you got to be, you know, someone, something else. So I got to come out of my shell a fair bit and and have a lot of fun with it. But I didn't feel like it was a long-term career.
SPEAKER_05Right.
SPEAKER_04And I got a bit, I got a bit moody, and my mum said, you know, you're going back to why I joined the Air Force. Mum was like, We're not really, we don't really like you much at the moment. You're she said it with all with love. It's one of my favourite memories of my mum because she just, you know, she kept things very real. And she's like, have you thought about you need to do something? You know, I thought about joining the Air Force, and I went, Yeah, okay, I reckon I can do that. So I did.
SPEAKER_03Off you went.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, off I off I went.
SPEAKER_03And so in the in the 14 years that you're in there, how one at what point, where did the injury come in? Like was it, you know, did you early?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I was only in yeah. I think at my third year I started having chronic back pain. I'm a bit of an all or nothing person which works against me. So I went from not really a very active, you know, school sports and they they weren't my jam. I'm very uncoordinated. Um if you've ever seen me if you've ever seen me. If you've ever seen me throw a ball and my nickname at rookies was helicopter legs, a few people call me because of the way I used to run. But uh, but I've very all on and I realized that when I joined the RAF very all or nothing. So I was really exercising a lot and running a lot and pushing my, you know, my little physical, my little body quite physically hard. And I had a very manual job. I was where in a in an area where it was all heavy aircraft spares and I had to like lift, lift a lot of heavy stuff. So yeah, I injured my back very early in my career and yeah, and I think I was only in about I don't know, it was only in five years or something. My memory timeline of memory is is not that great. But I had a spinal fusion
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SPEAKER_04and stayed in for 10 years after I had a spinal fusion.
SPEAKER_03So tell me what is a spinal fusion?
SPEAKER_04So for me, I sounds full on. Uh yeah, it's not fun. So a lot of people, spondylolithesis is what I had, and it's very common in a lot of people. You can live your whole life. So you have vertebrae and facet joint in your spine, and they should be kind of stacked nicely. And mine were separated. And in a short period of time, and the heavy lifting and the high nature of activity that I that I did out of work and that as well made it worse to the point where I was in chronic pain. So they sent me off to a few specialists, and I had an amazing surgeon who said, You're young, let's let's fuse you. So I'm fused solid, so L5S1, I'm fused to the base of my spine. They remove the disc. They do it very differently now. They go through your stomach and they do flexible cages. Whereas for me, they fused my um lower vertebrae together, and I've got bolts and plates, and I had a bone graft from my hip, and I it's fused solid. Wow. Yeah, it was it was a scary thing to go through. How old were you when I think I was about twenty four? Oh, that's a lot to process.
SPEAKER_03Like a big thing. Because you hear that, you know, back injury like instant fear. That must have been pretty scary.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah. It was uh inadvertently there were people that I worked with that were in chronic pain that and it was leading them to medical discharge, and I could see the impact on their quality of life that being in chronic pain was having, and they were much older than me. And for me, I thought I cannot live the rest of my life in this kind of pain. I will take whatever risk necessary to, you know, to relieve it to better my quality of life. And it was the best decision, it was the scariest but best decision I ever made.
SPEAKER_05Wow.
SPEAKER_04And I will I will pretty much die with that fusion. I'll be ching-ching when I'm cremated with my bolts. So I don't regret it. But I managed to stay in for another 10 years, but I pretty much stayed under the radar until That's quite an achievement to stay in for another 10 years after going through it. He's retired now, bless him. But he I think my last review with him is like that's very rare for anyone to stay in defence that long with a spinal fusion. But I did manage to, I was out of mustering for for a while, and I did manage to kind of stay under the radar, but when I was medically discharged was when I needed to be deployable. So my secondary posting was a deployable position. And that wasn't possible. Yeah, I went out on exercise and I couldn't do a lot of the tasks because of my back I ended up in hospital. Um, and they went, Your time is up, lady.
SPEAKER_03So is this is this what led to you know you managing this condition? I'm assuming this is something that you still have to manage. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yep, I'll be managing it for the rest of my life.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and is this where the yoga started to come in? You know, that was part of the managing the like.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah. So my my mum actually, when I got posted back to Queensland to Ambley, my mum started getting into yoga and it was a huge part of her life. And she said, Come to yoga with me. And the difference that it had on my physical and mental health was profound.
SPEAKER_05Awesome.
SPEAKER_04That's
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SPEAKER_04cool, isn't it? Yeah, I really found it challenging into bit to begin with. The whole, I can't empty my head, I can't, you know, I get testy at other people sleeping in yoga.
SPEAKER_03Isn't that interesting that you found that aspect of it challenging? See, I would have thought that the physical aspect of it might have been something that you found challenging, like holding different poses and that sort of stuff. Like, what I I don't know, is there this fusion? Does this inhibit a certain movement?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, so and when I'm teaching, I have to say, you know, if like we're doing any kind of extension, uh, I don't have extension in my lower spine. Same with surfing. So I have to I have to adapt and do the best I can. And I'm like, okay, if you guys want to go into a cobra and extend, you're f free to do that. But my my fuse spine wrote me allowed me to do it, so I meet myself here.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And I learned very early, and Dr. Askin was also amazing in inspiring me to he, you know, when I was fearful of my back when I came out of hospital, I didn't trust it. I've got foreign, you know, I've got foreign bits and bolts in my back. Of course.
SPEAKER_03And I was were they saying to you, you know, there's certain things that we don't want you to do, and then certain things that we do want you to do to try and maintain some type of strength and flexibility?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I was I was very I did all my rehab and I had amazing physios. We had a a f a physio that was um teaching Pilates and had a Pilates reformer on base at Amberley when I was getting out, and that was that was new. I think I don't think it had ever been done before, and I was a bit of a guinea pig for him. So but Dr. Askin was great in, you know, as long as you're not doing any high contact, you know, don't go and play rugby or you know, no high contact kind of sports you can do, you're not going to make it worse. And if you're in temporary pain, it's you know, now I look at it, is the juice worth the squeeze? I'm in a I'm in pain after surfing. You know, I went to the gym yesterday and I've cycled and then I did a yoga class, and I there's some of the moves in the yoga that I probably should have backed off a little bit more, but I'm surrounded by all these people. So that can be, you know, I overextended myself a little bit. So then, you know, what am I gonna do when I go home? Steam tent, red light therapy, a little bit of pain medication, and yeah.
SPEAKER_03The steam tent, like a little um I love my steam tent. One single person sauna. I've got all the gadgets, everything. Is that what it is? A single person sauna. I looked at one around the other day. I I'm a big fan of that. I'm a big fan of the sauna. I used to I used to go to a gymnasium not to join the gym. I never spit stepped foot in the weight room. I used to go in there to to use the sauna for like three minutes. Great for recovery. And then I'd jump in the pool and swim laps.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Yeah. Oh, contrast therapy, even better.
SPEAKER_03Oh, my how long do you sit in there for?
SPEAKER_04Um, I do 20 minutes.
SPEAKER_03Well, that sounds like a long time to be sitting in super sweat past heat.
SPEAKER_04Oh,
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SPEAKER_04sometimes I have to poke my head out of the uh out of the tent for a little bit of a that sounds like a funny visual.
SPEAKER_02It's a little tent with a little head.
SPEAKER_04The kids are like, where's Mum and I'm sitting in my little, it's got a little window that fogs up and I put little love hearts i i in the window.
SPEAKER_03Did you get this from Costco by chance?
SPEAKER_04Because I did see what at Costco for No, I didn't know how Costco had one. I just got mine on Amazon. Super cheap, but super effective. Yeah, cool. Um yeah, I um I'm into all the gimmicks, I love them all. And and the the red light what does a red light do? Oh, that's oh don't ask me what the comment.
SPEAKER_03Well when you say red light therapy, like I I don't know, you know, do you do you put in a red bulb and stand under it and go, ma'am?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it's got to be special red lights. And they and it at the cellular level, it helps to oh, I can't remember all the sciencey stuff off the top of my head. But anyway, it feels really good.
SPEAKER_01Well, that's my thing. As long as it feels good, do it.
SPEAKER_04It does it does some really cool stuff at the cellular level. That's what I can remember off the top of my head. But yeah, great for healing and recovery and injury and also for skin, so it's at every level of the tissues, basically, every level of the cell as well. So yeah, awesome stuff. Feels amazing. Yeah, so get one of those.
SPEAKER_03Okay. So yeah, I'll put it on the list. So, okay, let's get back to getting out of uh the the RAF and going into uni. Yes. So was it wanting to be, you know, getting into yoga, wanting to be a did you love? Of it that much they go, I could teach this, I want I really want to do this. And then how did the how did the nutrition going and doing clinical nutrition degree come about?
SPEAKER_04Well, the well, because when I was in I was like a vegetarian for eight years when I was in the Air Force, and I often experienced anemia. I was anemic, I was very tired, fatigued all the time. When I was doing triathlons, I would sleep a lot, I had really low energy, and I was also, you know, running eight to ten K's, you know, every cut. And this was with the spinal fusion. I was running a lot and doing triathlons. So I was see, all or nothing. Didn't really serve me that well at the time. But I was always tired and fatigued. So I remember, you know, we couldn't Google things back then. So I would, I was always trying to work out ways of eating well as a vegetarian, but there was no knowledge. And even when I would go to the doctor on base, he would go, Well, they would say, you know, you're oh yeah, you're anemic, but not correct it. And even my CV doctor, when I got out, so that's when I realized that I'm trying to eat really well as a vegetarian here, but I am not thriving. So I always had a very keen interest in how nutrition was affecting me and my performance. And I look back at, you know, when I was anemic and, you know, tired. It was affecting my relationship, but I had no awareness of that and no knowledge about it. So I was like, what am I going to study? I should do. And everyone's advice is do something that you're interested in. I'm like, well, I'm interested in nutrition. I've always, and it was, you know, not a surprise to anyone that knew me at the time that it makes total sense, you know, because whenever I was on base, you know, you'd come to my section and people would come and visit me for my nut mix and my trial mix. And, you know, I always had my healthy snacks and I was already always food, I was always cooking and, you know, trying to make things really interesting and healthy. So it wasn't really a surprise. So, and while I was studying, I was going to
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SPEAKER_04Mates for Mates, which is a veterans, yeah, veterans center there. And the beautiful Meredith was a yoga teacher there, and a sister of an ex-serving, her brother was in a Navy pilot who passed in the Seeking accident, and her son is also serving or recently, up until recently, serving. So, yeah, I was going to her yoga and it was amazing for my back. It was trauma-sensitive yoga, so it was very restorative yoga. So it was different to the yoga, at more active yoga I was doing with my mum, and I just oh I loved it. My sleep improved, my pain improved.
SPEAKER_03So just as because that's I know the trauma-sensitive yoga is a big part of the triumph over trauma program. So just for our listeners that may not be aware of the difference between normal yoga and trauma-sensitive yoga?
SPEAKER_04Well, I think all yoga should be trauma informed because you never know really who's going to turn up on your mat and what you know what what they're bringing to the mat, and a lot of us bring trauma, but when we're a trauma sensitive or trauma-informed, the the terms can be interchangeably used in this in the teaching space, but when we're trauma-informed, it's all about you come to the practice, it's all about choice. We don't, and it's not about an Instagram, you know, yoga pose or pushing yourself into pain. It's if you just want to lay there and chill out, and you can do a couple of the forms if you want to, but that's okay too. And if you want to get up and leave, I really support you in in doing that. And it's just it's very choice-based, accepting where you are in that moment, because we can turn up to the mat, you know, having a different energy levels, different, you know, fatigue, pain, all of those things. And as a teacher, we're very careful around our language. So I won't ever say, like, just relax, or you'll you'll now be feeling a wave of relaxation. And someone will be going, I ain't feeling that. And I'm really testy right now because I've felt like that. So we're very careful around the language that we use. It's very invitational. You know, you might like to, you might like to try this twist now.
SPEAKER_03You're very good at it. You're very good at it. Like the the I think one and only session that I've ever yoga session that I've done with you at it, the program that I can't remember, it's a few months ago now.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I remember because, you know, I practice yoga to a certain extent. Not a you know, I'm not a yeah, I do a bit. Right. Um but it was well I found it really cool that the way that you took that session was I looked around the room and there was probably, I'm gonna say maybe twelve, twelve or fourteen of us all on the mats, and at one point there would have been twelve people in twelve different positions, you know, for what made for what made them comfortable and what what they were comfortable doing or what they felt like they needed at that time. You know, do you feel like you need to roll onto your side? Roll onto your side. Do you feel like
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SPEAKER_03you need to, like you said, do the cobra or you know what whatever it is, it was very choice, you know. It's like you you you're there to guide them, but the choice is theirs as to you know. And I thought that was really cool. I really that's one of the things I remember the most about it. Yeah, that's awesome. Like you're very good at it, and and having look just looking around the room and seeing everybody doing their own thing and happen and and that's cool.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, uh yeah, I love it. And you know, I think because it's you know positively impacted me so much, and because I've been doing it for a long time, mostly with people that have never practiced yoga before, or have you know multiple physical and mental injuries and will say, I don't do yoga, or I can't do yoga. I'm like, this is my jam. Because yeah, I I kind of break down the misconceptions around what what yoga is and and should be, and yeah, just give them. I I really my main aim is I hope you get to chill out a little bit. And if you don't, that's okay too. You're just being here and just checking in with check in with your breathing. That's it. Notice your breathing. It's all you have to do while you're here.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_04You know, and I'm used to I'm used to agitated people, I'm used to people that are like, I'm not really sure about this. I'm like, just be open and I really encourage you, if you feel like this is not right for you, just you know, there there's the there's the exit. And and it's totally okay. And I always say I don't take it personally because if you're a really good teacher, you never take it personally if someone needs to practice their, this doesn't feel right for me, I'm too agitated, I need to go. It doesn't happen very often, but I'll definitely welcome it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So 2017, 18, we both start with the uh four Ozzy Heroes program. You end up being, you know, you like you said, you start out in the program as, you know, facilitator that comes in, does a few sessions and then and then leaves. Yeah. And now, you know, fast forward 2026, you're the lead facilitator for the whole thing. Whereabouts in that journey did the decision come to do a master's degree in counselling?
SPEAKER_04Well, I received a scholarship when I was at Mates for Mates. So I was doing some peer support around the STARE program with their psychologists. And I they offered it to me, they got funding for myself and for some other members to um study counselling. I thought, yeah, because it's such a big part of also nutrition and the trauma-sensitive yoga that I was teaching. I'm like, yeah, this is this is my jam. So I I did that. And then when I was first offered to be the lead facilitator of the program, I thought, I need, I need more knowledge. Skill. I need to upskill to I don't know, I want, I want to serve the groups better.
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SPEAKER_04I and I'm always like I wanted to go on to do my masters, and I was thinking about going on and doing a master's in nutrition or public health, and then you know do a PhD and blah blah blah blah. It never ends. But I'm like, uh, do I do I need that for the nutrition that I'm in the way that I'm working? No, but it's such mental health has become such a big part of what I've gravitated towards. Yeah, it just made sense to me. And I'm just sponging it up as much as I can while juggling all the other things I'm trying to do. So, how far how far through it are you? I'm halfway this, I'll finish this year.
SPEAKER_03Wow, that's exciting. Yeah. Oh, I'm so happy for you. That's so exciting.
SPEAKER_04It's great. And I'm meeting some amazing, I'm learning from the rest of the cohort that uh that are doing the masters, they're actively working in the mental health around Australia as well. So in different, you know, different fields. So we learn from each other.
SPEAKER_03I love I love that aspect of it. We did a similar thing in the Masters of Suicidology every term or semester, there was a discussion forum, and and you actually you were marked on your interaction and contribution in the discussion forum, you know. So like the facilit uh the senior lecturer might pose a question for the the group, the cohort, and then everybody would have to write, you know, in it's a discussion forum that everyone has access to, all the students have access to, and you, you know, you have to put your two cents worth in, and then and then you get marked on your ability to interact. Yeah, I think there was like three you had to, you know, we have that, yeah. And and it was fascinating, you know, because like that learning from your fellow students was so cool, you know, because when when we were doing the Masters of Suicidology, we had mental health nurses, we had police officers, we had paramedics, yeah, we had counselors, domestic violence counselors, and this sort of stuff. And so it it's great, isn't it? Great conversations, yeah. Yeah, fantastic.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah. And I think because um you're yeah, well, you ha you have shared meaning for while you're while you're studying as as well. So um I am curious.
SPEAKER_03I am curious, and I'll bring this up because recently when I so I do these podcast episodes where I talk about research items that I've found from around the world that are interesting, like the pulse episode. If you want to check it out, people any pulse episode is uh five research articles from around the world that I found interesting in the field of mental health, suicide prevention, or human and laughter research, right? And where I'm going with this is uh an episode that I did before Christmas was centered around AI and counselling.
SPEAKER_04You know, because yeah, big topic.
SPEAKER_03It is a big topic. Like I had no idea that first of all, they're in certain medical fields in Australia they're actually having AI chatbots for mental health nurses to get support. Yeah. But the big one for me was in India. So see if I can remember this. There was fifty trained adolescent psychiatrists for India, which is wow for that population. For that population, right? And so obviously it it's not enough. And so I don't know whether this was funded by the Indi the the government over
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SPEAKER_03there or or I don't know where it came from, but there's they've employed a AI chatbot, and five hundred thousand adolescents in India have used this chat bot in a 12-month period.
SPEAKER_04Wow.
SPEAKER_03And because I remember the article and it said AI chatbot establishes a therapeutic alliance with adolescents in under five days. Amazing. And I'm like, for a start, I couldn't believe that because I'm thinking like so just so the therapeutic alliance is the relationship between a clinician and a patient, yeah. You know, and it's it's built on trust, patients are likely to be more treatment compliant when that relationship is strong and they trust the clinician and that sort of stuff. Yeah, and so the the therapeutic alliance is a big thing. And for for me to read this article and it said, you know, an AI chatbot is establishing a therapeutic alliance in under five days. I'm like, bullshit, really, that can't be. Where are they pulling that from? So I I did a deep dive and found the actual research data that they were using to, you know, for that statement.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and they could back it up.
SPEAKER_03They could totally back it up. All of these, all of these adolescents saying, you know, I felt listened to, I felt understood, I felt that I could talk to this chat bot 24 hours a day, you know, like in the middle of the night. A big thing was because there's a level of anonymity associated with it, that they can open up more. And I'm like, this is insane. And and like, and it to me it screams warning, right? Because you gotta like you you to me, you've got to have safeguards in place because a chat it'll never be able to replace this, a human connection, yeah, you know, and I was I was really taken back by it. So I'm I'm curious to know, is this something that is spoken about in current master of counseling? Absolutely.
SPEAKER_04It was a big topic for us last year, and you know, when you when you say like the anonymity for a teen to use technology, and they call it the disinhibition effect. So because it's anonymous that and they feel safe with technology, remember too, because they've been brought up with technology, so they can just completely be themselves and reveal things to, you know, and get feedback from AI really quickly without the time of you know having to build a rapport and waiting until they feel a time where they feel safe with a you know an in-person counselor. That can take time. And, you know, for like you said, with the therapeutic alliance, sometimes that can take time and it may not happen because just personality differences, energy, it's the vibe, the vibe, man. Yeah. So yeah, it definitely makes sense for you know, for for for adolescents because they already have that connection and they feel safe with technology. Whereas I think as adults, we're more cautious and and wary of it. So I think you're right though, they're definitely, you know, the safeguards are because there was that case where that young adolescent was basically having a relationship with his AI chat bot, and he was removing himself with human relationships and it, you know, deeply affected his mental health. So I think it's like I say, with everything, the do the dose is the poison. But I think if, you know, the the data is there that thousands of adolescents can, you know, create a safe space for themselves.
SPEAKER_03500,000. I can't believe it.
SPEAKER_04That that's you know, that's that's a good thing that these they're not left without any.
SPEAKER_03Well, it's a fur what they're saying is it's the first point of call.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_03You know, it's like the uh the early uptake, you know.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. So And you would hope that there's something built into it that it like check-in, you know, check-ins, you know, how how how's your mood today, you know, and then there's a you would hope that there's a referral there, a system there that, okay, we've flagged that this person is not doing well, how are we going to refer them or get them some actual face-to-face or human help?
SPEAKER_03So uh from aside from the the patient point of view for the counseling using AI, do they talk about how this can be of benefit for you as a practitioner?
SPEAKER_04Oh, definitely, because uh since co COVID has definitely changed the landscape for online, you know, virtual allied health counseling specialists uh now. Um you can see your psychiatrist over Zoom. So it's definitely the benefits are accessibility. So for me, my private yoga nutrition clients are all virtual. Occasionally I will see someone face to face in Brisbane, but I've kept that to a minimum just to just as you know, it's convenient. So the accessibility is fantastic, but there's things that we can miss in the virtual environment. And it can be like the little little physical cues and things like that that we all miss. They could be really anxious and shaking their leg under the table, or you know, we might be only, depending on what we can see, we might only see from you know the shoulders up. So we can miss a lot of you know physical cues that they might be showing us. And same with yoga, depending on how they set up their camera, often I can't see them at all. So I'm saying if you have your bolster on your knees right now, you might just want to pop it to the side because they want a little bit of privacy or they just haven't angled their camera that way. So we we've had to learn to adapt, but we can make it work. And I've been doing it now for online and teaching yoga online since COVID, because we switched with mates for mates when I was there. We switched over to online. I've been doing it for so long now, I can actually just even by someone's expression on their face or their eyes, I can pick up on someone's energy now pretty well, even if I've only got a small, you know, visual of them. But it becomes becomes a skill and we adapt and and it's great for the client as well, is that they can have be in the safety and comfort of their own home. Because often going to an appointment as well is anxiety provoking in itself, especially if you have to catch public transport or if it's, you know, for me, my clients at the moment are Victoria and Tasmania.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. So it it means that they can access and then they know me. I've already built that rapport with them through a program, a face-to-face program, they can continue that in yeah, in a safe environment and keep working together.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's great.
SPEAKER_04So it definitely has its benefits. But there is, there are some challenges, but I think they can really be circumnavigated with experience.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, well, I'm I'm glad to hear that the uh the whole AI thing is being addressed and and really Ah, it's basically taken over uni at the moment.
SPEAKER_04I see, you know, my oldest going to uni doing teaching and that as well. It's uh, you know, they're like use AI to do a lesson plan. It's and we are you know, it's it's it's funny, like last year warned do not use AI for your assignments, but then one of our lecturers kept using AI for the lessons. Like, dude, come on. You're telling us not to use it, and it's got chat GPT says, I'm like, come on, dude, let us use it.
SPEAKER_05Like yeah, yeah, let's go.
SPEAKER_04It's like don't use it, but I will. But yeah, I think it's we we have to move. We as practitioners, um, we have to move with the times.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, it's a it's it's a tool at the end of the day is it's it's a tool and it needs to be you know it's like it's like any tool in a workshop, you know, like when it's used properly it can be used do good.
SPEAKER_04But if it's used incorrectly it can't be a little bit of and I think that's the way it's always going to be with AI as we, you know, move into the future and it gets used more and more.
SPEAKER_03Yeah it's interesting in it. It is. So um okay so military all of that and uh now aside from the work that you do with the Four Eyes of Heroes you're also an ambassador for Buddy Up Australia. Now this is another cool organisation that you're associated with and I see the big smile on your face you love it.
SPEAKER_01I do love it.
SPEAKER_04I'm so grateful. I tell you you do wear so many hats I tell you I know it's exhausting beamy that's why I need yoga and I need to rest uh I need my naps.
SPEAKER_03So talk to us about Buddy Up Australia and what it is and what you do for them.
SPEAKER_04Yeah they're a great organization they're still um pretty young I think they're about four or five years old now formulated form formulated can't even say that word by a couple of veterans in Western Australia and it's really so I'm their ambassador of nutrition. I've been their ambassador for about a year now they approached me beginning of last year and they're very focused on not just the veteran and the post first responder community but current serving as well so we're doing some really cool stuff but it's very you know connecting over like physical activity, recovery, you know social things, but anything from how can I just on that quickly how hard is it to get engagement from people that are currently serving as opposed to people that have left the service?
SPEAKER_03I would imagine that would be a challenge.
SPEAKER_04Yes and it's a different approach.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_04So so what we're working on at the moment and I'm involved with the Queensland police is I'm helping develop their tactical nutrition component of we're doing wellbeing programs with Queensland police so and we're having people tactical in there because it's the cops and they like that tactical stuff tactical yeah they like to feel special and so they should tactical nutrition but they need unique advice you know the feedback that I was given that was they were be being given very generalized nutrition advice that would also be given to the general public.
SPEAKER_03This is when they're in tra in like the police academy and you're coming through training.
SPEAKER_04Yeah when they're they're on the job. So and depending you know we have very active tactical operators to you know office based people in service and that as well. So the needs are very different but and their demands are very different and their nutrition around you know high stress you know possibly burning thousands of calories above the average person in a short period of time and shift work. What are their nutrition needs around shift work which is a big you know their circadian rhythm the science around nutrition timing in that is very unique to them. So for my angle working with BuddyUp and Queensland police is developing the you know nutrition around the unique needs of their active service. So and our other ambassadors that we'll that will come along on these wellbeing days with Queensland police as well you know how are they looking after their mental health and wellbeing what are they doing as recovery processes we've got like you know financial advice and that as well so it's all the pillars of um also exercise how are they looking after their mobility for them to perform on the job as well so it's a multi pillar kind of angle that we're going at with the current current serving. So yeah it's a little bit a little bit different but also the having the social connection and that on and recovery processes things they're doing on their downtime like come and go for a hike or go come and do an ice bath and a you know recovery session sauna on a on a weekend um to decompress.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_04So yeah we're really encouraging those what's your life like out of service and what are you doing to you know help what I was saying earlier about down regulating rest and recovery which is super important for the highest of performers and essential. Yeah yeah yeah so no I I love it we're doing some really really cool stuff and we're growing very fast.
SPEAKER_03So I will uh in the show notes I'll make sure that we put up the links to to the Four Aussie Heroes Foundation obviously and and yourself Jodie Allen nutrition so if people want to get a t hold of you and and buddy up Australia and so this is and this is something that is easily accessible for current serving people and absolutely yeah yeah they can sign up on the website membership is free yeah um most of the activities are free and fully funded so is that great so is it where where are they getting the funding from funding from grants yeah grants and donations so very busy but the we have an amazing sector would a lot of it be the corporate sector funding this no like my online yoga that I do once a month with Buddy up it was um sponsored by the Yoga for good foundation.
SPEAKER_04Yeah so I can't say specifically I'm not on the board or where the where their funding comes from but I know that they put money in for grants.
SPEAKER_03Yeah yeah yeah yeah that's cool because I know that a lot of these programs that you know it it costs money to run them and I know like the Forza Heroes Foundation you know like the getting that balance between and and this is a you know my personal view on this in relation to the the government's you know ability to step in and fund programs for veterans and and first responders and our current whether they're serving or ex-serving first responders and veterans it it just seems to me that it's a duty of care you know that the the government like whether it's state government or federal government you know we we entrust these men and women to look after our communities and our country and at great personal cost a lot of the time to themselves and their family. Yeah and it is I I believe that the government has a duty of care to fund these programs and it annoys the shit out of me how programs like Buddy Up Australia and whoever else have got to constantly fight tooth and nail to get government money.
SPEAKER_04Yeah it's like it it shouldn't be up to charities to charitable organisations to support our serving members and ex-serving members and you know there's there is more money being thrown around in the veteran space compared to the the first responder space and I know there is you know the well-being uh sur wellbeing for QPS are trying really hard to change the landscape and that's their you know working with Buddy up for us to deliver these well-being programs but Buddy up are funding funding you know like me appearing and speaking because they don't have QPS don't have the budget to pay for it themselves so whilst they have the intent and they know the need is there, they're also limited by um budget and resources. So yeah but it's a it's a great collaboration it's so inspiring when you forward when all of these things get done outside of government assistance.
SPEAKER_03You know when you when you see how much things get achieved from just good people out there going hard raising funds putting together programs and all this sort of stuff and and having minimal government support a lot of the time you know what I mean it's it's amazing.
SPEAKER_04It's it is really hard for people though as well there are so many thousands upon thousands upon thousands of not for profits and especially in the veteran space there's a lot in Australia has hundreds of thousands of not for and you know like who do you trust you know who's doing good work who's doing damage some of these organizations are you know causing harm to the mental health of their members and that as well so it's it is a tricky space to be in and for me I've had to learn I need to walk away that's not meeting my values uh so for any so for anyone listening that is you know trying to navigate this minefield of support services and this sort of stuff yeah I know myself my my suggestion would be to gravitate towards organizations where their programs are evidence based yes yeah is the big thing really isn't it yeah you know founded in grounded in evidence.
SPEAKER_03Yeah and and who who is delivering you know i are they qualified what is their experience yeah what is the background you know how yeah what is the feedback from from other members about the organization so yeah that's where I'm at at the moment is aligning myself with yeah yeah what feels what feels right yeah that's right it's the vibe man it's the vibe man it's the vibe buddy up's great okay so we we're doing all right now I did say at the start of this episode that we had a surprise for our listeners and uh yes and thinking what surprise well you are in the oh geez now you make me feel like I'm guilty because I haven't got anything no I do appreciate the sparkling water you like that okay good well that's I'm glad you're I appreciate the fact that you appreciate so the the big announcement my friends my listening friends wherever you are is that Jodie Allen the lovely Jodie Allen has agreed very kindly with given everything else that you've got on your plate at the moment to do a life skills masterclass series of podcast episodes with me over the next month. So uh I am incredibly grateful to you for your time and and your enthusiasm in in helping me get this off the ground. So so to let people know what where this has come from is I was doing a lot of laughter clinics for high schools for the teachers and then I was getting teachers saying this is a good presentation have you got something for our adolescent 15 to 17 year olds and I didn't have a presentation at the time and I thought what would I you know what would I want to talk to these young people about aside from the mental health and suicide prevention humor and laughter stuff that I talk about and and I came across the World Health Organization's 10 life skills that they have got this you know document that they put together in relation to adolescence and this sort of stuff and and I thought wow this is really you know there's a lot of really good things in there. So things like you know coping with emotions and dealing with stress and you know the thinking you know critical thinking creative thinking and decision making and communication and which is a big one interpersonal relationships and stuff and so so I built the LifeSkill masterclass presentation for the adolescents and the more I was doing it for the adolescents in the high schools you know and you know going from there to doing the the adult presentations for corporate environments and our first responder and veteran friends I thought you know maybe I reckon the the life skills masterclass could be something that could be in the corporate environment as well because there's a lot of really good information that we we may not you know really constantly think about in our day-to-day lives and and then I thought when I thought about turning it into a podcast I thought ah you know do one one life skill every week and then I thought oh that's a bit long and then so with bringing you on board Jody we're adding act we're actually adding to to the life skill so it's a 10 list from the World Health Organization but we are adding mindfulness and lifestyle medicine which is really your jam you know and it's so exciting so basically this is going to be a four-part series we're doing over the next four weeks so episode one we're going to be diving into you know foundational stuff self-awareness and problem solving and coping with stress you know and and then we'll go on to you know each episode over the four weeks we'll cover three life skills that intertwine with each other so it's pretty exciting yeah it's gonna be great fun yeah I'm so excited that you're uh you're you what you bring to this conversation and what you bring to the table for the life skills is going to be great. Yeah it's gonna be great four episodes yeah we can do it we can totally do it so so yes tune in my friends over the next four weeks and Jody and I will be doing our life skills masterclass series and yeah we know that you're gonna enjoy it and you're gonna get stuff out of it. So let's wind up our chat for today.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_03Right? And once again thank you so much for your time I know you're very busy I really appreciate it. But we uh we do wind up our episodes by doing with our guests the Feel Good Five. Oh that's right five that's your advice so and you hit me with it you see you know because you've seen me do the Laughter Clinic live presentation enough times to know where this is going. So because it's it's this stuff that I talk about in the presentation. So but now you're on the receiving end Jodie Allen. Okay okay number one on the feel good five to wind us up is what makes you happy oh being in nature with my family being in the surf and getting to do are you a good surfer?
SPEAKER_04No I'm terrible I fly my arm I call they call me jazz hands my really my arms are it doesn't make for good videoing. I got a video of my loss surf together and I I wave my arms up around in the air because I'm so excited and and I'm trying to keep my balance wave my arms around like a lunatic it looks like you know to the surf and I'm doing it I'm doing it I'm doing it she needs she needs why is she waving she needs help but she's actually on her board yeah no but I don't care I have no expectation to ever be an amazing surfer or just you know get out amongst it. It's your happy place being in the world don't get to do it as often as I would like but that makes me really that's complete nervous system reset for me being hiking being in nature reaching a summit or being out in the water yeah beautiful yeah that makes me happy yeah that's cool.
SPEAKER_03What are you grateful for today? I'm definitely grateful for my health yeah yeah nice and and yeah my work I'm grateful for that too excellent I'm grateful for our friendship oh me too and I'm very grateful for the fact that you've agreed to do these series with me very grateful.
SPEAKER_04Okay next on the list what are you looking forward to what's coming up I'm looking forward to going back to Tassie and we are going to the moral injury conference in May. Yes I'm really looking forward to that is going to be very interesting. First first one it is the first one I thought they had one last year.
SPEAKER_03No it was it got postponed last year. It was supposed to be on last year but they said and this one brings in New Zealand into the mix as well so yeah that is I'm really looking forward to that's very yeah it's a burgeoning field of uh study and well and and also especially aside from the fact that we both work with first responders and veterans it's not until you dive into the moral injury space through our friend Nikki Jameson that you realize how many professions are affected by moral injury.
SPEAKER_04Yeah and it's and still you know when I talk about moral injury on the PTSD program a lot of people are going wait what I think I have moral injury more than I have post-traumatic stress you know because there is there is a subtle difference there of what it is in response to and and it's just like you see their eyes wide open going wait this is the first time I've heard of this that's me this is what I'm going through right now. So I can't wait to go and learn more. So that's going to be great and then I'm gonna tack on the end of that go and see my old Tassie mates and catch up with Warfighter Coffee who are a massive supporter we support each other. And then next thing I'm looking forward to is going to the trauma conference Oxford University in the UK in September got a little scholarship to go over to do that. Did you um so I'm staying I'm staying on campus at Oxford uni so I'm gonna be maybe the one of the oldest students there but I don't care. Yeah I can't wait and I've got some friends to catch up with over there and one of my friends is going to come and travel with me too she's amazing. So yeah I can't wait for that so got some just sponging it all up.
SPEAKER_03Awesome yeah and just in case anybody's interested about the moral injury stuff you could check out the Laughter Clinic episode where I interview Dr. Nikki Jameson and she is it's a great interview yeah she's all about the moral injury yeah okay so looking forward to that's cool you've got some great stuff to look forward to very very cool. What's your me time? You kind of touched on this before when you were talking about the surfing but when you want to just switch off from the world and recalibrate what are you doing?
SPEAKER_04Yeah definitely well I start it in the morning it's coffee on my deck no device I can be a bit of a tomb scroller so um we all I do the delay tactic in in the morning so it's like nope nope nope nope not looking at my emails nope so I sit and have my coffee on my deck and I can see a glimpse of the Brisbane River uh and also yoga is a me time as as well it's like nothing else is happening when I'm practicing. So very important to me.
SPEAKER_03Nice one.
SPEAKER_04And the last one on the feel good five is what's made you laugh recently oh I definitely the heartiest heartiest laugh was my the last refresh program that we had at the end of last year we had a um bad the bad suits and heard about this heard about this the bad suits and sequins sober party and it is the most laughter and fun and and everyone was the same like we I had a playlist we had music and everyone like dressed up and you know you've got these yeah senior police officers in some interesting attire and we're just like bad dancing singing and yeah no alcohol needed and even the next like we just laughed I did the dead ants on the on the dance floor that we used to do when we were 17 at the sprinkler going on. Oh yeah there we're there's actually footy video footage of the sprinkler someone was dancing on a table it was but it was yeah it was just so much fun we had so because we'd already bonded and connected as a group and then come back together.
SPEAKER_03Yeah and yeah it was so this was something that had been planned prior to the refresh pro or did you I planned it it's the first time we we had our Did they know it was coming?
SPEAKER_04Yes because they had to I'm like show up with get your outfit it's bad suits. It's a cool thing to give them to look forward to yeah so they everyone took part everyone you know had a suit someone had a suit from Bali someone had an op shop glitch Dress on. They may have swapped over at some stage where the guy was wearing the sequin dress and the heels. But oh man, it was so much fun. And the next day, you know, everyone's like, that is the most fun I've had sobar in in years. It's just, you know, we often use alcohol as a social lubricant, but man, we did not need it. It was, yeah, it's one of my favourite memories, I think it will be for a long time. It was uh it was an absolute blast.
SPEAKER_03Lots of laughter.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, lots of laughter. My face was sore by the end of the night. It was great.
SPEAKER_03Fantastic. Oh, you're a gem. You're an absolute gem. And I look forward to our our upcoming four episodes diving into the life skills, and uh we're gonna spend a bit of time hanging out. So uh there you go, my friends. I will put in the show notes links to the Four Aussie Heroes Foundation, Jody Allen Nutrition, Buddy Up Australia as well. And and yeah, so tune in. The next four weeks we're going to be going into some life skills masterclass stuff. So yeah, it's gonna be very cool. So, as always, my friends, wherever you are listening, I really appreciate your time and really appreciate your time in joining me. And really appreciate your time in listening and tuning in. If you've enjoyed this episode, share it with your friends, you know, like, subscribe, all of that sort of stuff. And and yeah, as always, please be kind to yourself and be kind to those around you. Talk to you next time. Cheers.
SPEAKER_00See ya. Thank you for listening. The information contained in this podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes. It is not intended, nor should it ever replace advice received from a physician or mental health professional. Want more info? Visit thelafterclinic.com.au. If you enjoyed the episode, please share and subscribe. Thanks again for listening to the Laughter Clinic Podcast with your host, Mark McConville.