Beyond the Bar: Exploring People and Places That Shape North Carolina
Hosted by Ben Whitley, Beyond the Bar shines a spotlight on the people, places, and organizations that make North Carolina unique. From inspiring stories to discussions about culture and community, Beyond the Bar goes deeper than the courtroom to explore the heart of North Carolina.
Beyond the Bar: Exploring People and Places That Shape North Carolina
The Making of a Judge
Have you ever wondered what it takes to become a judge? Or what judges really think about our legal system? In this episode, Superior Court Judge Keith Gregory takes us behind the bench to share his journey from waiting tables and writing poetry to presiding over North Carolina's most serious cases.
It’s an inside look at the challenges, responsibilities, and values that guide judges as they work to keep the system fair for everyone.
Well, welcome to Beyond the Bar with Ben Whitley, and today's guest is Judge Keith Gregory. How are you doing? Wake County Superior Court Judge? Appreciate it, we were just catching up a little bit when we got started. I've known you for a long time, actually back to the prosecuting days, maybe right before that District Court appointment, I believe Exactly.
Speaker 2:It's been a long time, actually back to the prosecuting days, maybe right before that district court appointment, I believe exactly.
Speaker 1:It's been a long time, over 20 years, yeah, and I know that I've always known the family's been real important to you. How was, then? Being a dad has been very important to you. Yes, how is your family doing my son?
Speaker 2:Carter. As you know, he was a clef hanger at um Chapel Hill. He graduated in 2015, had got accepted to law school, okay, but he moved out to Los Angeles a month after he graduated. So he lives in Los Angeles and works for Capitol Records and he has been there for the full 10 years and he says Dad, I'm not going to be a lawyer.
Speaker 1:He's doing great. I bet not, he's doing great. You know, sometimes you tell people like you know law school would slow you down. I feel like Carter may be one that law school would have slowed him down.
Speaker 2:Yes, he definitely has found his niche or niche and he's happy and I'm happy for him. How often do you go out there and visit in LA? I was actually out there about two or three weeks ago to visit him. I try to go out there at least three times a year. Do you like it out there? You know, actually I do. I grew up in the South, so I was born in Virginia and, you know, been in North Carolina since 1991. I'm a Southern boy. Oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:Carter was born here. He was born in the South Good Southern roots, but he's my only child and therefore when I get close to retirement I'm starting to think I'm going to move out here to Los Angeles. I mean, I'm not a West Coast kind of guy. However, I can adapt. If my son can adapt, I probably can adapt also.
Speaker 1:I bet so yeah, and I've kind of naturally I like cities, like lots going on and I'm traveling, but Raleigh is, of course, growing being you know becoming a lot of the things that we travel to want to have.
Speaker 2:So, yes, and you've lived in Raleigh a long time, about 23 years now I came down in 91 to go to law school at Central and was married at the time and lived in Durham for a year. And then my wife at the time came down in 92. She was finishing her residency, right for her eyes and obgyn, and she moved down in 92. You know had carter in 93 and we lived in cary.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I still live in cary, so I've lived in cary the majority of the time I've been in and you bought the.
Speaker 1:You know the, the acronym that everybody talks about, the central area relocated yankees but I'm not a yankee no man, I'm a virginia boy. You probably have have to qualify yourself a couple times when you say you're from Cary. Now I'm a Virginia boy.
Speaker 1:And I will say there is some Whitley lore involved here. You have sworn in two of our lawyers, matthew Bissett and Chelsea Hall, and I will say this is no offense to Matthew if he is watching this, but Chelsea Hall is a little bit more famous on the TikToks. Now you know we've got that's pretty important, but you have to do. That's the one thing I think about when being a judge and a politician. I mean, do you have to get into that social media kind of stuff for elections?
Speaker 2:That's a great question. First, chelsea, I've seen her in your commercials, yes, doing a great job. She's doing a great job A star.
Speaker 1:Look, the first time they showed up Doing a great job, she's doing a great job, a star. The first time they showed me I was like a star is born. Yes, look, I'd be glad to take a break. You know it's tough enough seeing myself on a bus driving by downtown Raleigh. I don't mind a break or two. So yeah, that's fine, and she's doing a great job.
Speaker 2:She's doing great With the TikToks. No, I don't involve myself with that Now. Carter, not only does he do the social media as far as his job, but he also has become a TikTok media influencer. Okay, well, we want to give a little shout-out. How did they find him? Well, it's called the Carter Beam and he is. Trust me, he has made a little name for himself. I was supposed to visit him last summer. I went out and he goes Dad, bring a suit and ties. Why? Because we're going to the White House. For what? Because I'm doing a TikTok with Obama.
Speaker 1:Great.
Speaker 2:And I brought my suit and tie and thought I was going to be involved in that and then they told me no, no, no, it's just Carter, just Carter. Go back to the hotel. Of course you're living quite a life through him, through Carter, right Through Carter. But as far as the social media and things for judges, you know I have Facebook, right, and when I have a campaign, not only do I have Facebook, I have I think it's Instagram. My campaign team will put out, you know, letting people know that I'm up for election and so forth, but I don't do a whole lot on social media.
Speaker 2:I will say that for judges, since, and you know, we're not allowed to talk about issues and so forth so it's prudent not to post too much. I don't post anything actually. That's the easiest way to go. Yes, Happy holidays.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know we were talking about elections and some folks that may be watching they don't realize. Is it more interesting that North Carolina elects their judges and then beyond that there's partisan labels? This is a non-political show, so don't worry everybody out there, but is that unusual and how does that? What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, ben that's a great question. At some point when I first became a judge, it was partisan, Then they changed to nonpartisan and then it back to partisan.
Speaker 2:But one thing I've said, I was a district court judge for eight years, a superior court. The last seven, when I was a district court judge, I never had anybody come up to me and say, hi, are you a Democrat or a Republican? They wanted to know. Are you going to give me a prayer for judgment on my speeding ticket? Okay, and at this level in Superior Court, candidly, they want to know my getting probation or am I going to prison? Right, so stakes get higher.
Speaker 2:Yes, the stakes get higher, but politics For the trial division and that's district court and Superior Court right Really doesn't enter into it. You know our job as judges are to be fair and impartial to the state and to the defense and, in the civil matters, the plaintiffs and the defense attorneys and so forth. So politics should not play a role in what a judge usually does, because you and I both know when we pass a bar exam and we're licensed, nowhere does it say that you have to be this party or this party, and as a judge, it doesn't say that anywhere in the canons. We're supposed to be fair and impartial to everybody.
Speaker 1:And it seems like that has been the history a little bit. Unfortunately, politics has gotten very tribal and that is leaked into these types of situations, and, of course, the best I think folks could do about any of this is just information, right?
Speaker 2:Well, and you're so right. You mentioned about elections. The thing is that I truly believe judges should be elected. I think the citizens should vote for your judges.
Speaker 2:I don't think, respectfully, that one branch of government should choose judges. I think judges should be chosen by the citizens. Now, the citizens have a responsibility, I would think, to research judges and you can go to your board of elections and get information about judges. But I firmly believe that the citizens have a right to choose who their judges are and should Right. So I respect that process. I really am a proponent that, as I said, I don't think, respectfully, one branch should choose who our judges are, because if and no disrespect to that branch if that branch is choosing our judges, then we won't have, respectfully, diversity, we won't have female judges, we won't have judges of color, we we just, I think, when you let the citizens choose and then they can decide who they want to be their judge, because that becomes the representative democracy, in the sense that the folks that they're going to elect are going to look like them, are going to be them in their community and are going to make these tough decisions.
Speaker 1:These are tough decisions you have to make. You mentioned stuff about jail, but it can be bigger decisions that you have to make.
Speaker 2:You know one of the things at the district court level.
Speaker 2:Now you know that at the district court level, a district court judge, he or she is responsible on the criminal side for cases like driving while impaired offenses, domestic violence offenses, and on the civil side, family law issues and so forth. The district court judge, he or she, when they have bench trials, they're making those decisions either guilty or not guilty, or liable or not liable. Fortunately, at the Superior Court level, the jury makes those decisions and I simply act as a gatekeeper to let you know, decide whether what evidence should come in, what evidence should not come in candidly. I like that as a gatekeeper, to let you know, decide what evidence should come in and what evidence should not come in Candidly. I like that role a lot better because— it takes the pressure off, doesn't it? Yes, because when the lawyers and we're all lawyers but when the lawyers are saying you know well, judge, you know, let the citizens decide, let the jury decide, and I really appreciate that that takes the pressure off and it does, and the right trial by jury is a very sacred right.
Speaker 1:It's any other bar, but that's an important one, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Yes, but then the court has to do the heavy lifting, obviously, when it comes to legal issues and so forth, and one of the things that I'm very grateful for, I think in North Carolina we have a great bar state bar. In total, I am somewhat respectfully, I do think of Wake County as being a great bar within the state, so we are considered as one of the best bars.
Speaker 1:Right, and sometimes when we go as lawyers practicing go to other courthouses in state that were from the Wake County bar, we do have to worry that that doesn't, you know, make it change anything for us, but you know it's.
Speaker 2:Wake County and we have the luxury of not only we are in Wake County, where we have the Supreme Court, the Court of Appeals, the State Bar, the Capitol, the General Assembly, so we have access to a lot of different things here as Wake County lawyers. And that's not to take away from the other bars, but I do believe that you know selfishly, I think, that we are a fantastic bar.
Speaker 1:Well, absolutely. I mean hometown.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And for like just when we heard about, like the district courts or the superior courts what's a? High-level explanation, like for someone like okay, well, you started at the district courts, right, and that's mostly a lot of criminal and domestic and kind of explain a little bit about this.
Speaker 2:Well, at the at the district court level. It's interesting because this evening I've got to speak at an event to talk about the divisions. As you're aware, we have the appellate division, which consists of the supreme court and the court of appeals, and then the trial division, which consists of superior court and district court. Right At the district court level, we handle misdemeanors, traffic offenses, infractions and low-level felonies On the civil side child custody, divorce, maybe small contract issues, and so forth. At the Superior Court level, though, we handle all felonies, jury trials, all misdemeanors and infractions that are appealed from district court. Because what people may not know? At the district court level, when you have a trial let's say, for example, with a driving while impaired offense and you have a trial, a bench trial, which is in front of a judge, he or she if they find you guilty, you have a right to appeal A trial de novo. A new day. As you're aware, they taught us a lot of Latin in law school.
Speaker 2:They taught us a lot of Latin. They did, and I remember most of it. But then you have a right to have a jury trial with the jury of your peers. So at the district court level, as I said, you have bench trials. Now what's interesting is I'm not sure if a lot of people realize that on the civil side, district court judges can actually have trials, jury trials also. They can call for juries.
Speaker 2:Generally, the matters that are in controversy at the district court level are $25,000 lower value, yes, but when you have matters that are over $25,000, big personal injury matters, medical malpractice that generally goes to superior court and you'll have a jury trial and so forth.
Speaker 2:On the criminal side, obviously the most serious offense you have is murder, first degree and death penalty being obviously the highest criminal offense that you can have.
Speaker 2:If you are convicted of first degree murder and it happens to be a capital murder trial and the jury sentences you to death, the appeal goes straight to the Supreme Court of North Carolina and the justices will deal with those issues. One of the things that is interesting and I think that we are fortunate in this country to have our criminal justice system, good and bad. We are fortunate to have it because we have checks and balances, so that when I was a district court judge, if I, let's say, for example, found somebody guilty of a speeding ticket and then they appealed it, they had a trial and in Superior Court, where that jury could say no, no, not guilty, or that Superior Court judge could say, well, I'm sorry, judge Gregory did not apply the law correctly and they could dismiss the matter Further. At this level, the Superior Court level, we still have checks and balances where, when you have serious matters or regardless of any, matter serious or any citizen.
Speaker 2:first of all, make sure I'm saying that correctly. But let's say, for example, with an armed robbery and the jury finds the person guilty and I've made rulings along the way throughout the trial and that person appeals. Well, the checks and balances, the Court of Appeals will look at what I've done. They're not going to have a jury trial, they're grading my papers.
Speaker 2:essentially, they're looking at it If asked, if asked, if asked. That's a very important point. If they are asked, ie appealed to and they will say you know, yay or nay, gregory, you gave the right ruling or you didn't. Yay or nay, gregory gave the right ruling or you didn't Then, if possible, if asked and if the Supreme Court takes it, that matter could go to the Supreme Court if you aren't satisfied with the ruling you received at the Court of Appeals level and done there, and therefore the Supreme Court will look at what the Court of Appeals said and decide well, they were right or wrong. And you can go deeper and say, well, decide, well, they were right or wrong. And you can go deeper and say, well, gregory were right or wrong. But once again, the Supreme Court does not have jury trials. They simply just like the Court of Appeals. It's a question of law. Right, has the court, the trial court, applied the right law?
Speaker 1:well, look at the accurate. Carter had his moment when he decided he wasn't gonna be a lawyer, which would have, which worked out pretty good for him, very good. What was the moment you had when you were going to be a lawyer?
Speaker 2:You know, ben, now I probably shouldn't say this, but I will. You mentioned Carter. You know, when I graduated, I went to the University of Virginia as an undergrad. I graduated in 1988.
Speaker 1:And at that time you date Well it's okay, you can date yourself. I'm dating myself. That's right.
Speaker 2:But at that time I had no idea. I never thought about law school but you know I was kind of waiting tables and writing poetry Waiting tables.
Speaker 1:Now we'll just pause there. Yes, sir, I did that all through college. I went to UNC, chapel Hill a big rival of UVA, yes, yes, but I waited. I learned more about people Waiting tables and I did at law school and and therefore, like how you know, you probably got more tips than I did.
Speaker 2:I waited tables. I wasn't a good waiter. Okay, yeah, probably that more tips that's about well we'll get. We can see on this off, but no, okay, but no, I you know, after three years you know kind of you know waiting tables and kind of, like I said, writing poetry and so forth. I started getting more serious. So then I said I'm going to go ahead and go to law school and when I got into law school.
Speaker 2:It wasn't now. Some people like law school, and I'm not disparaging. I wasn't one of those people that really liked law school.
Speaker 1:Oh, come on, but you went back for more. No, no, you went back. You got a lot of work.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'll add to that.
Speaker 2:I did after I graduated years later went back and got a master's in judicial studies. That did. But I think it was in my second year when I took trial ad and we had to, I thought candidly I thought I'd be the type of lawyer that would sit behind a desk. I never go into a courtroom and you know, I don't want to be in front of a jury. After I took trial ad and we had to actually have a mock trial and so forth, that's when I realized it. You know what I don't mind being in a court. I want to actually find out. You're good at this well, hopefully.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's what you know, the things you could be passionate about you end up and be good.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes and so when I graduated law school, I wanted to be in the courtroom Right, and my very first job was as an assistant public defender. I was commuting back and forth from Cary to Fayetteville and I was getting courtroom time, but not a lot Right. When I got the job in the DA's office here in Wake County, working for Colin Willoughby, I had the opportunity to try a lot of cases. I just got a lot of time to call him. Oh my gosh, I lived in it. They throw you in there. You know it's like sink or swim. You know the first couple of days Figure it out.
Speaker 2:Figure it out, you get a little direction, you know when you're in district court, da, but once you're in there it's sink or fire, right, but that was the best experience for me. You know they're not going to start you off with first degree murder.
Speaker 2:Right, you're going to start off with speeding tickets and, you know, infractions and so forth. Work your way up, work your way up. But when I got to Superior Court as a prosecutor handling, you know, felonies and so forth and doing a lot of jury trials I truly enjoyed that aspect of it. And then I did 10 years in private practice for criminal defense and focused mainly on doing jury trials. So I did tons of jury trials. So by the time, after 15 years of being in trial experience in the courtroom, trying everything from a speeding ticket to the death penalty jury trials, it was time for me to say you know what I want to try something else. And at that point, a judicial seat district court seat had been created and, by the grace of God, governor Perdue appointed me to the district court bench in February of 2010 and then had to stand for election. And just so people know, in North Carolina, judges are elected by the citizens.
Speaker 1:However, you can be appointed by the governor If there's a vacancy or if a spot hasn't been opened, but then has to stand for re-election, Exactly.
Speaker 2:So some people get that confused. They're like well, are you appointed or elected? I was appointed in February of 2010, but I had to stand for election in November of 2010. So I had opposition.
Speaker 1:I would think as a resume of a candidate that for a judge at least. Now some judges don't have as much jury trial experience, but that's pretty important.
Speaker 2:I mean, that's a big part of the background and you know, ben, you're so right on that because you know you and I both know in North Carolina you can graduate law school, pass the bar exam and you can run for judge and be elected, and if the people elect you, I respect the process. But if the people elect you, you have no experience as a lawyer, no experience as a judge. But your only experience is I graduated law school, passed the bar exam and people voted for me. In a current heartbeat I won't comment any further, but I will say this I think when I actually became a judge, after 15 years of trial experience, I was 44 years old, I had some life experiences. I had a son, had gone through a divorce, all those kind of things that gave me perspective and maturity in the sense of when I was dealing with district court matters.
Speaker 2:Because you're dealing with people, people, things Exactly A lot of people things Exactly and you know when people come into your courtroom, they're not coming on their best day. You know I don't care if it's a speeding ticket, I don't care if it's a driving law license revoked or assault on female Right and that war in criminal superior court. If it's something more serious. They're not coming on their best day and they want judges to be fair, to be impartial, not to. You know this. When you walk into a courtroom and I hope I can say this to people that are listening, especially the lawyers that come into my courtroom when you open that door to that courtroom and you see that judge, you say to yourself it's going to be a good day or it's going to be a bad day, depending on how that judge and how that judge runs that courtroom.
Speaker 2:Now, I'm notorious for making sure guys tuck their shirt tails and pull their pants up. However, I want the lawyers to be able to do their work in an environment where they can actually do the things they're trained to do, and I think it's incumbent on the judge to provide that arena. For example, in a jury trial, I don't question jurors. That's the lawyer's job. My job is just to call the balls and strikes. The way I see it, if I want to get back on the field, then get back on the field, be a prosecutor, be a defense attorney. But since you're not on the field, just call the balls and strikes and let the lawyers handle their cases. Don't try to tell lawyers how to try their cases.
Speaker 1:I totally and let me in, because you get to see a lot of what's some advice you have to some young lawyers, middle-aged lawyers, older lawyers, especially younger lawyers I mean, they're coming up in a different time well, you and I, we have been around well a long time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're the same, we're contemporary, we're contemporaries but when young lawyers and I think you would agree with this, one of the things that I was taught, you know 30 years ago treat your clerks and your deputies. And when you get to Superior Court, your court reporters treat them good. When you one thing, you'll spot as a judge, you know who the new lawyers are. Yeah, because the new lawyers will come in.
Speaker 2:They don't know where there's a fair and you see that, look in their eyes and it's like, yeah, that's a new lawyer. Yeah, the best thing they can do for themselves is introduce themselves to the deputies or clerks and court reporters and so forth. Just because those people have been in the courtroom for years, they can help you. If you come in with an attitude of I'm a lawyer now and I just passed the bar exam and I know this, I know that you're're gonna make things a lot harder for yourself. So I think, humility, you walk in with humility and you maintain that humility. I will tell you this, for when I was a prosecutor, defense attorney now as well became a district court judge and a superior court judge. The court reporters, the deputies and the sheriffs I mean deputies are redundant. The deputies and the sheriffs I mean deputies is redundant. The deputies and the clerks they have helped me tremendously, so I've never forgotten that lesson no, or probably.
Speaker 1:you see how. It's just how people treat other people. Yes, Common sense it's common sense right, and those folks have all that lore and know how this judge is, and so it's helpful to get that.
Speaker 2:Very much so, because they will let you know how this judge does things, how other judges do, and they give you all the insight and they're willing to help you if you ask. So I think that's the biggest piece of advice I would give to young lawyers.
Speaker 1:Now middle-aged lawyers, lawyers such as ourselves.
Speaker 2:I will say this at this point in the game hopefully, if you've been practicing this long, you have right. If you have bad habits and those habits are still bad, then you know I feel sorry for you, right? Hopefully you don't develop good habits so that you know that, um, you can impart knowledge on younger lawyers. I will say this, though I think it's important that you never lose, when you're in that courtroom, that idea of you know it's still, it's still one of those things. When you walk into a courtroom, it is intimidating, sure, and I don't know how to be intimidating.
Speaker 1:Your air is a little bit higher than there's the big image, but it's a decorum right, yeah, you were in that black road.
Speaker 2:But you know, um know, Ben, I actually, as I'm speaking tonight, I did some research on the history of North Carolina courts. Yeah, and you know that the North Carolina Superior Court is the oldest court out of all the courts. People think the Supreme Court's oldest. It was the Supreme Court. The oldest court is the Superior Court and it began in 1777. The oldest court is the Superior Court and it began in 1777. Originally, before we had courts, it was King Charles or King Edward II that when he granted—Carolina was a province Right and he granted, I believe, six or seven something of that nature districts to six or seven noblemen to create their little courts. When you appealed a matter, then you didn't go to a court of appeals or a Supreme Court. You didn't have those.
Speaker 1:You actually had to go back to England for the appeal and that would take a little bit of time. People complain now about how long appeals stay right. Four years, eight years, it would take a long time People long dead before they get that back.
Speaker 2:It would take a long time. So then, after we declared our independence in 1776, then in 1777, that's when the North Carolina Superior Courts were created In 1819, then we had the creation of the Supreme Court, and that was out of you know, I think it was out of several Superior Court judges that then the General Assembly appointed three to be Supreme Court justices and within those three they chose the Chief Justice. The Court of Appeals came about in 1967 to lessen the load for the Supreme Court Exactly, and then district court came about in 1966.
Speaker 1:I'm glad. Well, you've got the history now. I've got the history now. You ready for your talk? I think I'm ready for my talk. I hope so. I hope so, all right, well, so what do you do to not be a judge? What's your down time?
Speaker 2:See, you know that was one of those questions I wasn't prepared for. Oh, I had to sneak one in. Well, you know candidly when and you know this too, being in that courtroom people would think that, well, you guys aren't doing any heavy physical lifting.
Speaker 1:No, the lawyers are doing in the court. Sometimes it's okay that we want to lay on the couch after work and just stay, and that's what.
Speaker 2:I do. That's what I do Because you, literally, when you're dealing with serious issues and, like I said, every issue is serious to the people that are involved the lawyers obviously can keep the courts feet to the fire, because the lawyers and one of the things is this we have to also understand that judges we're just lawyers. We're just lawyers who happen to be elected as judges. So, therefore, just because you don that black robe does not make you smarter. And I will say this if and no offense, but if you are, um, let's say, super jerk before you put the robe on, you become super, super jerk oh is that.
Speaker 1:Oh, that makes sense I would work.
Speaker 2:I always like this session. So the accelerator, it's an accelerator accelerator. Therefore I like to, especially in civil court. But you know my backgrounds, you know prosecution on prosecution of criminal defense. When I became a Superior Court judge, I took on the position that these civil lawyers know that Judge Gregory doesn't do a lot of civil work and therefore I knew that. They knew that. So do you guys help?
Speaker 1:me yeah and you get that right. Lawyers you trusted could help and lawyers to have that role to educate judges yes, and then that and that's when they're just explaining it then? Yes, and you found that that's part of what the process is and that's not offensive to me, because the yes and you found that that's part of what the process is and that's not offensive to me because, the way I see it, if you live with your case forever and then you bring that case in front of me, you know your case, I know that case.
Speaker 2:You know that case, it would be egregious on my part not to expect you to explain to me what you believe the law is and so forth, and me not to listen. It's more helpful, actually, when I'm dealing with the civil lawyers. They really do educate me on civil law and civil procedure and so forth, and I do my studying and so forth, but you've got to go from subject. You may have to go from one day to the subject matter here.
Speaker 1:Subject matter here, I mean that's a lot to keep in there. Yes, yes, you know, in some states, I was talking to someone.
Speaker 2:I think, it was in New York where you might sit as a judge for 14 years and all you do is criminal work or all you do is civil. In North Carolina, as you know, we do both and you get to move around some too. Yes, that's a very good point. In Superior Court, since the inception of the creation of Superior Court, of the creation of Superior Court, Judges drove horse and buggy to I think it was like six districts at the time and they would sit in those districts for six months and then go to the next district. Well, we have been doing that since then, so we travel. I'm in Fayetteville now and I will come back to Wake County. We sit in six-month periods.
Speaker 1:You know we have 100 counties and that's a little bit of traveling, yeah, and the Chief Justice can send us anywhere he needs us, but generally we get our schedules five years in advance, so we know where we're going to be so listen, here's a new tradition that we have here on the show I, because we know you have a busy schedule, sir, I can't, I don't want to get distracted, so throw a rubber band at me when it's time to run I saw him doing that.
Speaker 1:So, judge Gregory, I appreciate it. This was good and as people need to know better information about our elected judges and to vote when that comes out.
Speaker 2:Vote, please vote. It's important. I thank you, ben, for that. It's important. I will conclude with this, and I'm not being political, but, um, there are three pin branches of government, three independent branches of government and we, as citizens of North Carolina and this country, should welcome that no branch is greater than the other branch the legislature. They create the law, the executive enforces the law and the judicial interprets the law. But when I'll say this, vote, vote, vote.
Speaker 1:That's important believe it or that? Gregory, I really do appreciate. Appreciate by tuning in today for beyond the bar. Join in next time for beyond the bar. Thank you.
