Episode 9 - Modern Tech Orgs Overview: From Cost Center to Strategic Partner with Tricia Hembling and Therese Pocrnick

In this episode, the first in our Modern Tech Org mini-series, we sit down with Tricia Hembling and Therese Pocrnick to explore what it really takes to build a modern tech organization. This conversation lays the foundational principles that the rest of the series will build on.

We dig into how to move beyond traditional IT as a cost center and instead position technology as an integrated, value-driven partner to the business. We talk about the core traits of modern tech orgs—customer-centricity, agility, predictable delivery, and true ownership—and how to design smaller, autonomous, cross-functional teams that can make decisions quickly and deliver value fast. Tricia and Therese share how trust, shared outcomes, and strong relationships between IT and the business replace old “throw-it-over-the-wall” ways of working.

We also look at the leadership and funding shifts required to make this real, including moving from project-based to product and value-based models, and creating an environment where experimentation and systems thinking can thrive. Along the way, we draw on fun examples like sneaker and brand collaborations to highlight how co-creation and partnership fuel innovation.

If you’re working on transforming your tech organization’s structure, culture, or leadership approach, this episode sets the groundwork for what’s to come in the series—including future sessions on data architecture, adaptive organizations, and advanced modern tech leadership.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome to Allen and Paco where we explore ideas, stories that help you create okay.

SPEAKER_00 0:11

That's that we're gonna bring a product as conversation, value, and purpose or the app.

SPEAKER_04 0:20

And I'm RT1, also known as the RTF. Because when transformation happens, we don't want to make any way together. We're here to share insights, our ideas, and have a lot of fun along the way. So I think welcome to today's episode.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

Thanks for joining us. As always, we have a really, really fun, exciting topic of modern tech organizations that we're going to be talking through. Mike on the mic here, your host, along with Jeff and Archie. And we've got amazing guests as always. Trisha and Therese are joining us. So, Tricia, would you like to do the first intro and then we'll pass it to Therese?

SPEAKER_02 1:06

Sure. Thanks for that. I'm Trisha Hembling. I lead our modern product organization capability here at Solomon, really focusing in our central region. And, you know, when I say that modern product organization means a lot of things to a lot of people, I think when we think about it, we're thinking about how do we help organizations improve the flow of value, really get from that important business strategy all the way through to realize value. And what are all the things we need to do in the middle? So the things that I'm thinking about every day are really focused on all the ways that we drive agility, we drive a focus on value, we drive results, and we help organizations figure out how they can thrive in the modern world.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

Awesome. Thanks, Tricia. Go ahead, Sherise.

SPEAKER_03 1:50

I always love this question because I always feel like it's uh like, what is it that you say that you do here? So uh I'm an enterprise agile coach here at Slalom, and uh I help organizations uh solve people, process, and tool problems. So the systems of people working together is the most complex system that you'll ever build. So I help people navigate on how to do that.

SPEAKER_01 2:18

Thank you, Therese. Thank you both for being here. Uh before we get into modern tech org, we have to do our icebreaker as always. I know Therese is excited for this one because we're fellow sneaker heads and talk way too much about sneakers. Um, so today I want to talk about sneaker collabs and if you've got some spicy takes on cool collabs, overrated ones, or like what one would be goaded if it came out. And if you're not familiar with it, there's been these combinations. Uh like Nike and Lego recently had a collaboration which was super cool. Stranger Things, I think, collabs with everyone. They did Nike, Adidas, all the shoes from the show. And then because we're a food swing show, I did notice there was a KFC and Crocs collab. It looked like chicken printed Crocs, which is just pretty crazy. Yeah, uh it's it's that's just uh it's a disaster all around, I guess you could say. And I may or may not own the shoe and the lego, just saying.

SPEAKER_04 3:38

It would be a pro move to have Legos on top of the shoe so that when someone steps on your foot, jokes on them. I like where we're going, Tricia.

SPEAKER_01 3:46

I could hurt a lot.

SPEAKER_02 3:47

Have you ever made a shoe out of Legos? Is that what the Lego set is? You like make Lego shoes?

SPEAKER_01 3:55

It actually looks like a shoe, and then there's like a little basketball hoop and a basketball guy. It was made for you cannot wear it now, but it looks super cool out of my shoe collection.

SPEAKER_00 4:06

Like I went a little outside of the sneaker zone as well, and I looked up that Lego actually did a collab with Airbnb as well, and there's an Airbnb like Lego house that you can rent.

SPEAKER_02 4:18

I thought you were gonna say there was an Airbnb like sneaker collab. It was like house.

SPEAKER_04 4:24

I thought you were saying, Jeff, they built an entire Airbnb out of Legos that you can rent, not like a little kit.

SPEAKER_02 4:29

Oh wow. Full-size barber dream house type situation.

unknown 4:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:35

I um I I had to go with I'm a comic book person. We've already had the Lego collab. I want to see like Miles Morales to be a perfect collab. He already wears Jordan sneakers, maybe some Hulk. And then food-wise, instead of KFC, I feel like we need a Detroit style, maybe Buddy's Pizza collab with some shoes. I think we could do some cool stuff in that space.

SPEAKER_03 5:00

Or it's yeah, I mean I'm the outsider here.

SPEAKER_01 5:05

Uh Buddy's Pizza is the it's like a brick oven, but also the pepperoni is underneath the sauce. It's a Detroit thing, but it's it's super, super good. You have to try it.

SPEAKER_02 5:15

It's weird. It's tasty.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

Yeah, but it's delicious.

SPEAKER_02 5:19

So could you go order like custom shoes then that have different top your like your favorite toppings on them? Like no pineapple, um like Nike ID, Nike by U.

SPEAKER_01 5:28

I think you yeah, I think you should be able to. It should come like that.

SPEAKER_00 5:32

Quite frankly, frankly, I'm surprised that Domino's hasn't already done this.

SPEAKER_01 5:36

Um, this is right up their lane, 100%. This is definitely a Domino's thing. And then you get the shoes delivered to you by a driver.

SPEAKER_03 5:44

Oh, yeah. That would be pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01 5:48

Um, I would Therese, do you have a collab?

SPEAKER_03 5:52

Um, you know, I'll I'll tell you the collab I don't like is I think the Travis Scott collab has been overdone. Like, I think the Jordan ones were the best ones. Um, I think maybe the Jordan, like the Lowe's were okay, like the first couple iterations of it. Um, eh, I think I I worry a little bit about some of the um collaborations just like like slapping a logo on a dunk, you know, kind of thing. I want to see, like, I would love to see, because I I'm a big Tom Ford fan, I would love to see Tom Ford collaborate with anybody. Um I know that Tom Brown did a collaboration with New Balance, and so I like that kind of more high-end sneaker um like collaboration, like look and feel, um, like elevated kind of uh aspect of it. So that's kind of where my head's at.

SPEAKER_01 6:55

Once you cleared the Jordan one, Travis got I felt a lot better. I feel personally a funny.

SPEAKER_03 7:01

I loved that one.

SPEAKER_01 7:03

Okay, all right, we're fine. After that, I'm gonna carry it.

SPEAKER_03 7:08

I feel like that was hard to run. But yeah, some of them, yeah. Kind of done.

SPEAKER_01 7:14

I almost lost the show, but we're safe now. It's back. I'm back. Would have been real awkward.

SPEAKER_03 7:18

So you can work for Domino's sneakers.

SPEAKER_01 7:23

Trisha, do you have a collab take? Sneakers or otherwise?

SPEAKER_02 7:26

So I'd probably go in a similar vein as Teresa. Um, not into the sports club. I feel like sneakers represent sports already, and like great, unless we're gonna do something custom. So, like when Jordans came out, that was a big deal. It was a different sneaker. It was one of the most talented basketball players ever. It was a cool thing. Um, I would lean more towards like very specific designer collabs or even like um, and this is gonna make me sound like a dork, but like rifle paper company has these really cool like floral designs and things and like color ways and stuff like that. And you'll you see them on like bedding and notebooks and tumblers and things like that. But I would love to bear a pair of sneakers that has a really cool design on it that complements the outfits that I'm wearing. Like I wear an absurd amount of Taus sneakers and I have some cons and things like that. I really am attracted to the ones that have really cool colors that work with the, you know, that just have a different look, that have an elevated look to them that um I can wear for work and wear out and about and and not feel like I'm dressing down too much.

SPEAKER_01 8:35

I like it. That was a very classy take, of course. Um, if you have ideas out there that we missed or you disagree with us, feel free to comment on it. Uh, but Jeff, I'll let you throw out the first real question now that we've gone through all the collabs.

SPEAKER_00 8:50

Yeah, I love this conversation. Um, let's jump into the the real content here. Um, and Therese, I'll start with you. What share a little bit more about what does modern tech org mean to you? How do people perceive that? What does that look like in your mind?

SPEAKER_03 9:05

Yeah, I mean, I feel like we've been talking about modern tech or modern tech org or or modern technology for about the last 10 years. So, I mean, even uh when I was in Denver with kind of health the healthcare startup culture, um, we had VPs of technology kind of talking about how we're modernizing our ways of working, how we're thinking about things. And for me, like in my experience, what has really come down to is a couple of things. I think um one, a little bit more customer centricity. So maybe kind of getting back to what when people say, hey, you know, agile, like I was doing agile before we said agile, it's that customer centricity, it's it's um you know, delivering iterative and incrementally, it's more innovation and like building that in, it's about um being more predictable, it's about increased ownership. Um, and it's now I think a lot of like modern tech practices. So when we think about some of the practices around um, you know, uh um like cloud-based AI, um, you know, frequent integrations, you know, movements towards that, no code. I think you're seeing a lot more of the technical practices finally kind of aligning a little bit better with some of the cultural things that people talked about, but they just couldn't put their finger on.

SPEAKER_00 10:43

Yeah, that makes sense. Trisha, anything to add from your perspective?

SPEAKER_02 10:49

Yeah, I think one thing that you said kind of struck me a little bit, and that is we started with, you know, before things were agile, we were like, how do we get together and just deliver the thing that our business needs or deliver the thing that's gonna change our business? Or like I've worked in tech startups a lot, that was our core business. Like, what's next for that? And we were looking for the most effective ways to just work together and talk to real humans. I think when we got dogmatic about agile and agile frameworks and agile methodologies, I hate that phrase, but like some of them leaned really hard into this methodology idea that if you didn't do everything in this exact specific prescribed set of practices or ways of working, that you weren't agile and you had to do it that way and there was no alternatives. I think we kind of lost the thread. That dog that dogmatic approach turned people off. It didn't bring people along on the journey. And at the same time, we were in a phase where we were really throwing things over the wall at people and wanting, you know, businesses wanting guarantees that technology could deliver, technology wanting not wanting to work on anything unless the business was absolutely sure this was exactly the thing they wanted to work on. I think with Agile, we tried to tackle some of that, but we never tackled the fundamental problem. The fundamental underlying problem was trust and collaboration. Like we went away from trust and collaboration. And while Agile Values and Principles were supposed to be tackling that and can, if they're implemented well, if you just implement the practices on top of that that were in the frameworks, without tackling those problems, those problems stayed. And I still see them today. I see them come through in our inability to identify what's the right value at the right time, at the right cost, in service of our customers. So going to the customer thread, we're so busy figuring out like what are all the things we want to build and what does the solution look like? We lose the customer, we lose the value to the company, we lose the tie to realizing our business strategy.

SPEAKER_03 12:45

Trisha, something you said there too, I think is an important shift is I feel like technology has a seat at the table now. I think in the past, it's been a lot of hey, IT is the cost center for our business. And now it's more about how are we solving problems together? How can technology enable and unlock the needs of our customers and the needs of our business in a way that I think the last maybe 25 years has gotten away from.

SPEAKER_02 13:23

Yeah, and I think IT ended up kind of behind a veil of heavyweight governance processes, PMOs, lots of checklists, lots of making it really hard for IT to deliver. And I think there's starting to be some realization that that's problematic. Um, because we saw a lot of companies go hire shadow IT, or they'd hire a vendor to do something because that allowed them to get around some of those practices. And then I think we saw IT organizations get a little bit complacent in the ways that they're working. They're like, well, we have this process, we got to follow the process, we don't have a choice, or it's gonna take a long time, or you know, so it became kind of at odds a little bit with the business and what the business needed. And so we created different structures to try and make it work. There's now this realization that there is no such thing for the well, I shouldn't say there's no such thing. It is rare that a product isn't either a digital product or a hybrid product. It is rare that an organ no organization can thrive without a technical component. Like we have to work together. It's an imperative now. It's not a choice, it's not a we'll tag the IT team into this to go build the thing. It's we need IT and we need data and we need AI to run our business. Like fundamentally, we cannot run our business without those things because every single one of our competitors is doing that. So we're seeing business, I think, invite IT back to the table. I think in some cases, depending on the senior leadership, the CIO, the CTO, the SVPs, and where they came from and how forward-looking they are, whether they can actually take that seat and have the conversation that needs to be had to create this modern, value-centric organization that includes both technology and business, is the question. And I think that's what we see a lot coming to us is like, okay, I recognize there's a need as a CIO, a CTO to fundamentally change. And this is a shift in the last two years, I think, where we're seeing more of those folks willing to revisit fundamentally how we work, how we think about the work, how we work with our business, and maybe set down some of those, you know, those guardrails that I built up over years of more and more structure and governance and CYA, frankly, that made it almost impossible to deliver on cool functionality or on the value the business needed at a reasonable cost. So we're starting to see that kind of come together and a willingness to have these conversations. There's a little bit of a there's a long road and there's a lot that needs to evolve, but there are small steps that we can take along the way.

SPEAKER_04 15:53

Yeah. And I I think too, Tricia, you're kind of piquing my curiosity. Uh in this like modern tech org approach, what do you think it really like takes to thrive? Because I kind of hear that in the background of like, hey, we tried agile, but we we sort of did some of it. We didn't really do all of it, and a lot of these other pieces, right? Something was just missing. So, from your perspective, what does it take to really thrive?

SPEAKER_02 16:17

It's um, so this is this comes up a lot whenever we talk about transformation. There is a fundamental change in how we lead and the culture that we lead with that has to be a part of it. We need to see ourselves as one team across different business functions, across business and technology. Um, and we need to share goals. We need to share the outcomes. We need to all be anchored to what are the business outcomes that we need to drive. I had this conversation yesterday where a client that I was working with as we kind of work down through the layers, like the the product development teams had a set of goals that were very kind of tactical. But their goals did not necessarily reflect and would not necessarily achieve the the business goals of the organization, not directly. And we really should be starting with like what are the big outcomes, what are the big things that need to change, value we need to achieve. And then we need to look across kind of our product portfolio, across our data platform organizations, things like that, and say, okay, how are we best actually, that intentionality of how are we best going to actually achieve that? What are the different initiatives that we want to put in place? Where do we want to make investments? What hypotheses do we want to test to validate that we're actually going to be able to unlock the results? And I think that mentality of experimentation, testing hypotheses, um really focusing on how do we get to outcomes and how do we pivot and decide not to do the things that aren't getting us towards those outcomes. So considering both leading and lagging indicators of value. That's another thing I see a lot of is organizations may write a business case up front, but they're not actually going to, they don't actually know how to compare apples to apples and prioritization of different business value levers, and they're not actually going all the way through to realize the value. So they're hoping for the best. They're investing tons of money and hoping for the best in a lot of cases. So that mindset needs to fundamentally shift for the rest to all come into focus. And then, you know, I think it's the changes in the structures and the technology organization that embrace that and embracing that for your platform engineering teams, for your data teams, for your AI teams, for your um for your um product engineering teams, and like how do we bring that all together? That's a big mindset shift.

SPEAKER_03 18:43

Yeah, Trisha. Yeah, uh, sorry, just really quick. Tricia, you know, one of the things um I think too to thrive is like we need small nimble teams that have more end-to-end accountability and ownership. And I think part of that needs to be the investment that companies make in their people as well. So I think a lot of times we see um kind of the, you know, if you want to advance, like you go take classes, you invest in yourself, and we'll take advantage of it. I think in order to be successful and to thrive, there has to be an acknowledgement within the company that, hey, we are moving to this model. We want to empower you in a variety of different ways, both technically in decision making, um, in your understanding of the business and the products that we produce. And we are going to invest in you as people as well. Um, and I think as a result of that, you see smaller teams that can take on a variety of work, that have accountability to each other and can move quickly and problem solve better because they know that, hey, there's that investment that's there.

SPEAKER_02 20:03

Yeah, I totally agree with that. Like, how do how do we build those teams that are cross-functional, that are are truly empowered? And we didn't just tell them that they can make decisions, but like we're truly empowering them to make some decisions that are within their control and cross-functional enough that you have all the right people so that they can deliver incrementally, they can do their own continuous improvement, they can figure out what's next together because you need those nimble units to do that. And you know what? And give them the power to actually say, you know what, I think we've delivered enough. These additional features aren't going to deliver enough value to warrant the additional cost. Or, you know what? I don't think this product's hitting because we're really close to our customers and the things that we're developing aren't resonating the way we need to. We need to rethink this. Like, how do we and I think that's a big part of the culture shift, the leadership shift is allowing that to happen without going through 18 layers of leadership to be able to make those decisions.

SPEAKER_04 20:57

Yeah. Uh I'm already learning some good stuff here in this conversation too. But I I'm just thinking too, and I've had the pleasure of getting to work uh more with Therese lately, but I'm thinking about it and I can hear some of the same things in the way that Trisha says them. And I'm like, I I know that you guys know each other, but now it's even more obvious. But anyway, okay. I actually have another question to ask. I'm not just self-reflecting. Uh so in in this, like in this modern tech org and a lot of this good stuff we were just talking about, Therese, from your perspective, how does how does that look for partnering with the business in that?

SPEAKER_03 21:32

Yeah, so I think we've talked about a couple of those different concepts already. Um, you know, having a seat at the table, thinking about um IT less less as a cost center and more about really where the value gets delivered, um, and really honoring that and and understanding that. I do think that um, you know, one of the things that uh when people have this backlash. Around Agile or other delivery, what they perceive as delivery frameworks. It's coming from an agile coach, right? They focus on the process. They focus on am I using JIRA or am I using some ALM tool to solve my problem? I see you smiling there, Archie. I think a lot of it is the people. And so Trisha talked about trust and building trust. And I think part of partnering with the business is really establishing relationships and building relationships and having a shared understanding of the problems that you're trying to solve for, and really saying, how do we best solve this problem together with shared accountability and responsibility to that? I also think that earning trust is through some of those faster feedback loops, through some of that innovation, through some of the use of tools to serve how we're solving problems. So you're seeing a lot with AI, it's like, hey, how can we clear the path for people to do their best thinking and their best problem solving and not get so caught up in all of the other garbage that we have to do that we consider overhead or process or all of those different types of things? So partnering really looks like engendering that that relationship building from the start and doing it sooner as opposed to when maybe something's going wrong and we're firefighting together. Um so just a couple of thoughts there.

SPEAKER_04 23:38

I I love that too, and and going to the very like human element because it reminds me of like W Edwards demoing things where it's like, hey, the people are just behaving in the process that you set them up in. So how do we more intentionally build this where it looks like we can stay human and do all the things that you just mentioned? So I yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_02 23:58

Yeah, and leading the change is one thing you can't delegate. So it requires leaders to make changes. And um, one of the things I've experienced quite a bit is when we have executives that hire us to come help them with the transformation, they often think the changes in their next level are two levels down or three levels down, and that's where the fundamental changes need to happen. But the big changes need to happen at your C-suite and all the way up through your CEO to pave the way for this to happen and create the conditions, and then also set goals that reward the right behaviors. A lot of times we set goals that drive bad behaviors, and that really kind of crushes the trust, it crushes the productivity of actually being able to deliver real value and delight our customers. Um, so I I think we have to be really aware of that and for you know all the C-suite folks out there just recognizing the role that you need to play in creating that culture, in creating the room. Um I mean, part of a modern tech work too is it's changing your funding models and it's changing kind of that structure that allows those cultures to take hold. Like if you have a project-based funding model, you are gonna drive home this culture of we have fixed scope, we're gonna deliver on the scope, we're not gonna test ideas, we're not gonna be innovative, we're not gonna experiment necessarily, we're just gonna deliver on the thing. And when we switch that to more of a product-based or value-based funding model, and we actually allow our leaders, our executive leaders or senior leaders to work together on how are we gonna allocate those funds, but what do we really need to deliver? When do we need what value do we need to deliver? When do we need to deliver it? And we hold like, and this is where the product roles come in product strategists, product managers accountable for value versus scope, but that really changes the culture as well. That that drives that better relationship between business and technology. They're kind of that linchpin role that really helps bring that closer together. Um, there's a lot of talk about forward-deployed expertise right now. Product folks have been forward-deployed for a long time with their tech folks right next to them. And so, you know, embracing the things that we already have, the agile advising principles, product principles and ways of working, really get those things a lot closer together, create a culture for the collaboration and open communication and allow us to create this thriving environment if you pair that with the funding that gives them the freedom to make decisions and kind of what we talked about, that empower and culture of empowerment, the cross-functional teams, like all of it comes together.

SPEAKER_01 26:36

Love it. One of the things that stood out, and I don't know if anyone listening heard Therese say to have smaller teams with less people. I'm sure people are like, well, wait, that's not happening because the tendency lately is just throw more people at it. And the question is, how do you avoid the temptation to throw more people at challenges? And it's everything that you both just said after that. Have the right discussion, have the right mindset, don't just throw more people at the problem. All those things will help avoid getting in that situation. So I just had to call it out because less people, smaller teams is the opposite of what the first reaction often is. Um, Jeff, I know you had a question to ask, so I just said to make that connection there.

SPEAKER_00 27:19

Absolutely. No, I love that. Um, and it's so true. I think there's a lot coming out with AI and and maybe reshaping even how the teams are. We've talked about that in other episodes as well. Um, we've talked about amazing concepts today, both uh Therese and Trisha really appreciate all the insights you've been providing. Really good nuggets in here. Uh, as we're wrapping up here today, I just want to ask you is there one kind of key point or something that maybe we didn't cover yet that you really want to share with the audience here today to kind of leave us with? Uh uh Trisha, why don't you start us out?

SPEAKER_02 27:57

Yeah, I think the the key things for me is that we need to let go of kind of some of our traditional systems, our traditional practices. Um what got us here is not gonna get us there. And the world has changed. Um we know that the vast majority of CEOs have recognized that they need to fundamentally change the way that they're doing business to not only, you know, to thrive or not even survive in the world that we're living in today. The pace of change is never gonna be slower, it's only gonna go faster. So we need to work fundamentally differently. And so what that means um more broadly is I mean, to Teresa's point, smaller teams that are cross-functional, more autonomy in teams, but like shared goals. So we're all working towards the same objectives. It's a system that has to come together and to make sure that we're actually getting to the results that we need for the organizations and then sometimes making those hard decisions. Um so as we kind of think about that, how do we apply a mindset of continuous improvement, a mindset of being focused on value, not just to your traditional software development teams, but to true product teams as well as to your platforms as a product, like data, the data organization, your platform engineering, your um how does enterprise architecture fit into the mix? Like really thinking about how these different minds, this mindset shift, the culture, the leadership, the focus on value, and how do we start pulling levers that allow us to do that, that allow us to do more with less? Every leader I've talked to recently has said that they need to figure out how to do more with less. Well, we need to do less of the things that don't matter or don't drive value. But no one's gonna notice if you don't do those things. So, how can we look at our organiz take a hard look at our organization, apply a systems thinking lens, apply a value lens, and figure out where we can do how we can do more with less without compromising our people or compromising um our outcomes.

SPEAKER_03 29:55

Yeah, well said, Patricia. I'm not sure there's uh very much more I could say in addition to that. One the one thing maybe I'll just call out is um I think a lot of companies don't spend enough time anchoring on shared outcomes um and shared responsibility. Um all of everything that we've talked about is you know around small autonomous teams, faster delivery, you know, more value focus, data-driven decision making, like all of that type of stuff. Um, there are practices that people always end up focusing on. And so they immediately always go to the practice or the tool. And so at the end of the day, I think it's it's about the people, it's about the mindset, and it's about the shared values that you have. Um, and then it makes some of these conversations a lot simpler as opposed to thinking like it's some process that we have to impose or it's my framework versus your framework. Um, I think it's really about hey, do we agree fundamentally that we are getting after the same things? And I think it the conversation about being a modern tech or becomes really easy after that.

SPEAKER_00 31:06

Yeah, yeah, if we're all going after the same thing together, let's let's go after that together and and then partner to do that. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 31:17

Well, take us home. Uh Therese and Tricia, thanks so much for all the thoughts here and really walking us through the fundamentals and the mindset around a modern tech org. Um, with this being such a heavy topic and us getting into the basics, we really want to get into more of the practices as well. So I think it'd be really cool to bring in some more of our friends to talk about some of the specifics like data, architecture, um, adaptive org. So all those different elements that play well together or are part of modern tech work. So we definitely want to have this be um a topic that we expand on. So look out to that. That was a professional podcast, tease, by the way. But if you're out there listening, and if there's any of these practices you're curious about, comments on our episode and let us know what you want to hear about. But we definitely want to go further with this. So thanks again for joining us. Thanks as always to Jeff and Archie and I'm Mike on the mic. Have a great day. Thank you for joining us.

SPEAKER_04 32:19

Keep learning, keep growing, and keep making way.