The Cultural Effect on Language: How We Connect Through Words with Ann Collins

In this episode of the Cultural Effect Podcast, I have a conversation with Ann Collins - Executive Coach to senior leaders and teams - to explore how language mirrors a culture and shapes the way we connect with others. 

We dive into how cultural values like hierarchy and collectivism are embedded in the way we communicate. We also explore how our perception and interpretation of what we hear are filtered through our own cultural lens, shaping not only what we understand but how we respond. From the art of reading between the lines to the power of language to help us step into someone else’s world, this conversation reveals how deeply culture influences every interaction.

Connect with Ann on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/annridleycollins/ or on her website https://www.anncollinscoaching.com/

Connect with me on LinkedIn: https://fr.linkedin.com/in/helenebejjani 

Follow The Cultural Effect Podcast on Instagram: @theculturaleffectpodcast 

Follow The Cultural Effect Podcast with Hélène for more conversations on how culture shapes who we are, how we lead, learn and live. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Welcome to the Cultural Effects Podcast, where we unpack how culture shapes how we work, lead, and live. I'm Elan Bejani, your host. In today's episode, we're diving into something really cool, which is the impact of culture on language. And I have with me today a special guest, Anne Collins, an executive and team coach who lived and worked in many countries. Welcome to the show, Anne.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

Thank you, and thank you for inviting me to talk about this topic, which is which is very close to my heart through my lived experience, but also in my work. So thank you so much. Thank you, Anne.

SPEAKER_01 0:42

And I'm I'm very excited about this conversation in particular because I personally speak three languages every day, and I definitely see the impact of language on the culture, on our interactions every day, and I would love to explore this deeper. It's all about the lived experiences. We want people to learn more about how they can cope and how they can use language to as a mirror to the culture as well. So maybe if you can tell us a bit about yourself, your experience working with different languages, cultures, and multicultural teams.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

Yeah, sure. Thank you. I actually started off as a primary school teacher. And during during my time at university, and in fact, before going to university, I had my first experience of living overseas. I lived in Germany for three months and then I lived in Zimbabwe for eight months. So my first experience was learning German and then learning Shoner out in Zimbabwe. And I really enjoyed that experience. I loved learning new languages. I hadn't done that. As many of your listeners will know, the British, we're not well known for our language learning enthusiasm. So this was a new experience for me. And so my my experience continued. I was in education. I was in primary education for a long time and then decided to do voluntary service overseas and went to live in Kathmandu in Nepal for three years where I worked. And I worked there in Nepali and English actually. So that was a real experience of culture and language and trying to navigate that. I came back to the UK, carried on in education, and specialized in special needs, education, and language, as in fact. And then as a couple, we decided to have an overseas adventure when our children were small, and we moved to France and stayed there for 11 years and learnt French. And again, navigated, learning a language, immersing ourselves in a new culture, navigating that uh navigating that way of uh adjusting and learning to live in a new culture and a new society. So I feel like I have definitely lived this. Um and it's been it's been a privilege, it's been a learning, and it's a joy to be honest, because I think every time you step into a new culture and a new language, you're stepping into another world, another way of thinking, another way of believing what the world can offer us, another way of interacting, and hopes and dreams are different in another language. And I just feel that that's that is such a privilege, but of course, it does also bring challenges in the workplace. And as a coach working with a lot of international teams, um, I'm also looking at it from a different point of view. How can we fast track that process, in fact, of understanding each other better and ultimately connecting? Because for me, we often talk about communication, and really what it is, it's about connection, and those things are not always the same. So I hope that answers that question, Ellen.

SPEAKER_01 4:10

Thank you, Anne. And I I fully agree with you. We think that language is just a communication tool, but it's much more than that. It's uh it actually carries the values, the beliefs, everything that shapes the culture itself. You've had a fascinating experience. And I have one curious question. Was there a moment throughout all of this experience when you realize that what's going on is more than just vocabulary or grammar and it's more about the culture itself?

SPEAKER_00 4:38

It's such an interesting question, and probably this says, you know, this says something about me. Maybe I'm a slow learner, but it took me a while to really learn this lesson. And I think it wasn't until I moved to France with our two children. So my two daughters were 18 months and three years when we moved to France. Neither me nor my husband spoke French. So we were starting pretty much from scratch. And in the first few weeks when we were there, my eldest daughter was very sick, got a bug as uh all little ones do. And I went to the doctor and I sat there with my list of vocabulary, just words. I couldn't put them into a sentence. And I felt so helpless, so stressed, and so sad, and and shame actually, that I couldn't, I couldn't be even a good mum because I couldn't communicate and I couldn't get my message across. And and in that moment I thought this is this is about the grammar and the vocabulary because I don't have it, but this is about something else. This is actually about not feeling able to participate in the culture and understand what's going on. And in that moment, I was so lucky because the doctor in front of me, she was extremely kind, and I think we'll come back to this about what can help people. She was extremely kind, and she just asked me if she could have my envelope with my list of vocabulary, um, because obviously she couldn't understand even my pronunciation, it was so bad, and so she took that and she went through it, she gave me time, she wrote down for me absolutely everything I had to do with all the medication, and just was so thorough and kind and patient, and all the things that we know help, but she did it instinctively, in fact. But that was such a learning that this was actually so much more about understanding the bigger picture and understanding the culture, but also seeing that little things can make a big, big difference. That I didn't have to be perfect actually to communicate and connect with this wonderful lady, actually. Um, so yeah, lots of things came into that. It was such an emotional journey when you're learning a language and immersing yourself in a different culture. It's the the grammar can only get you so far.

SPEAKER_01 7:05

Um and I fully agree, it's about the human connection to your point, and it makes me think about all these AI tools that we use today to automatically translate some conversations when you're a tourist in a foreign country and you don't understand the language. They do translate what you're trying to say, but there is a lot that gets missed from the conversation, and uh it requires more of the human connection, the nonverbal, the kindness, reaching out, trying to understand what the person is struggling with, what they need. And this is more about the culture and the personality. It's not just a sentence that you put in an AI tool and that you translate. There's more to that. Yes, yes, yes. In in what ways do you think culture shapes the way we use language?

SPEAKER_00 7:53

Yes, it's uh it's it's really fascinating, isn't it? Does it is it culture that shapes language or is it language that shapes culture? And is the that it it's almost impossible to say, I think, which which way round it is. Um but I think that when we look when we look at uh different ways of communicating in different cultures, language is obviously so key to that. So I think that culture reinforces the way that we use language, but also language pushes culture as well. So one example that always comes to mind to me is when you think about languages that use genders for nouns. So in French, a bridge is le Pon, so it's a masculine noun. In German it's die brucque or brucque. Sorry, I said that with a French accent, that's another problem. And and when we look how we how people talk about a bridge within their language, in French, it's much more about the bridge being strong and dominating the skyline. In in German, the bridge is elegant and beautiful, so much more typically feminine characteristics. So is that language shaping those thoughts or is it the culture shaping the language? Who decides whether it's whether it's masculine or feminine? That's I've never had an answer to that question. I've asked it many times. So I think it's it's an interesting one, but I think it's both ways.

SPEAKER_01 9:23

Oh, I love that. I never thought about the masculine and feminine connotation we give to certain words and the impact it has on the role these words play in what we're trying to communicate. That's such an interesting one.

SPEAKER_00 9:37

I think another example is uh moon. So in French, La Lune is very romantic and in lots of songs, for example. Um, La Lune is is is totally beautiful and magical and mystical and and with these very feminine qualities. And uh and I don't know, but in English, I'm not sure that Moon has the same feeling, but that could just be me.

SPEAKER_01 10:02

Yeah, yeah, and and you can only realize that when you actually explore another language or listen to it or learn more about it, you immerse yourself in it. So when we think about the values, the meanings that that the language brings to our communication, how do values, for example, like hierarchy, authority, or even when we think about collective versus individualistic focused societies, how do they show up, do you think, in in everyday communication?

SPEAKER_00 10:32

Well, when I when I lived in Nepal, the language that you use for not only for in terms of hierarchy, in terms of social status, but also in terms of age. So you you would have a different word for older sister and younger sister. And if you were talking to someone and giving them a lot of respect, so if it was uh if it was a man and you were giving them lots of respect, you would use the older brother word. Whether they were older than you or not, in fact. So if people are about the same age and you weren't sure, um you would default to the older brother or older sister word. So diddy is older sister. So many people would call me diddy, but in fact, when I lived in Kathmandu, I was 26. I was not older sister to many of those people. So this I think this is really interesting that age in in other cultures, age is not uh a marker of status. In fact, you could almost say it's the opposite. Um, in some in some societies, age, you know, we try to fight we try to fight it, don't we? So it's I think there that's a real example of hierarchy, status, and culture coming together. Um, and obviously, as as you will know, Hélène, in French, the vous and to is uh very very important to get that right, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 11:56

Totally. And all the professional, polite ways of addressing people to show respect as well. And when we look at the collective versus individualistic cultures, I come from a culture that's very much into the collective, and I know that, for example, there are so many words that we use to show social connection, lots of expressions as well. One example is that I always mention is when someone gets a haircut, there's a specific word that we use just to tell them that I hope you enjoy it and it looks good on you. And I find myself in situations where I want to say something in French or in English, but I feel like I have no words because nothing I could say could uh relay the same meaning that I have in my mind. Yeah. So I think that's just one example, and there are so many in Arabic, there are so many expressions that we use that could be very strange when you translate them literally. Yes. However, when when you understand the meaning behind them, you understand how they show the collective dimension of the culture where social connections are so important.

SPEAKER_00 13:04

And in Nepali, for example, there's a beautiful example of that. When you say namasti, which people will have heard that word, and someone replies with namasti, so you can say that um to say hello, but also to say goodbye. And and it's uh a salutation which says that the God in me salutes the god in you. So this is this is something else entirely. We we would never say that in English or in French, by the way. So it shows how even religious culture is in everyday language as well, and is so important, and that namasti greeting is absolutely fundamental to starting a conversation with everybody when you're in Nepal.

SPEAKER_01 13:50

That's beautiful, and it's available in other languages as well. I keep thinking about other examples. So um are there certain words or phrases, for example, that you think don't translate well across cultures?

SPEAKER_00 14:04

Oh, I I think uh I've got so many, so many little memories of things that don't translate, and they've sometimes been words that I've used incorrectly or that I have misunderstood. Um, but I one that sticks in my mind is uh in French, um, because I I love singing and I joined a choir because I wanted to I wanted to make friends and I wanted to sing, and uh and I thought this would be a good way because also when you're when you're sitting in a choir, it's it's quite relaxing. You can sing and you haven't got to think of the words to say, they're written in front of you. So it was quite uh an easy way to make friends. And so I went along to this choir and I loved it. And the the conductor was fabulous, thought he was brilliant, except on a regular basis we would sing something, and I would think, Oh, it's you know, doing quite well here, and he would say, Oh, pas mal, which means not bad when you translate it. And for me, in English, not bad can be quite positive, or it can be quite negative, as in French, by the way. But his tone I I took to mean that it was not good at all. And eventually I said to my neighbour, who was an English teacher, I said to her, I don't understand. We're we're working really hard. Why is he so negative? And she said, What do you mean? And I said, Well, he keeps saying everything is pas mal, and and she laughed and said, Well, that means, you know, it's quite good. And so I had completely misunderstood, but also taken it very much to heart. I've had a really emotional reaction to that, and I think it's very useful to remember that, whether we're on the receiving end or with the one who's speaking and the other person may have misunderstood, is that it's it's not just a miscommunication, it triggers an emotional reaction. And I think that's what's so useful about learning another language and becoming immersed. We realise just how, in a way, how fragile we all are, and how we we pick up these signals, and there it's it's something that is so deeply rooted, it's quite hard to understand and quite hard to articulate, and we may not even notice. So it's also being self-aware of that. And I think as I have learnt different languages in different places, I've become better at picking up for myself where those where those little triggers pop up. But it's uh it can be quite a difficult, quite a difficult moment. So that's that's uh that's just one example of hundreds, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_01 16:43

Because it's about perception. I mean we are constantly interpreting the world around us, so we keep we pick up signals, we pick up words, and they get filtered through our cultural lens, our upbringings, uh everything in the back end, our experiences, and then in a in a split of a second, we assign meaning to what we're hearing, and this is where this translates into reactions, um, and it happens constantly. This is what human connection is about, and everything that's happening behind the scenes. So, do you have examples of situations where someone was labeled rude or passive or unclear and it was actually just culture at play?

SPEAKER_00 17:25

There are there are lots of these kinds of examples, I think. One one I would like to just talk about from a work perspective is when we're giving feedback. So giving feedback is something that leaders need to do for people in their team, and also hopefully they ask for feedback from the people in their team as well. And this is obviously or can be quite a sensitive issue anyway, even when everybody is fluent in the in the same language. But when you add into that mix that people are maybe speaking a second or even a third language for them, um, possibly from different countries, not even living in the same country, there may be global teams, you can see how there is, there really are so many possibilities for things to go wrong. And this is where I have seen some quite difficult situations for people when they have been either on the receiving end of what has come across as being very blunt feedback or not well explained or not very nuanced, um, or on the other hand, that someone has given feedback and then they're surprised that it hasn't been taken in the way that it was intended. So, examples like that at work, I think, are tricky to navigate. Uh, other things uh that are maybe interesting is for example, within within the English-speaking world, there are so many different cultures as well. And I can give you an example because I have Irish, Irish family, and when we sit down to eat, obviously we're all speaking English, but at the end of a course, someone will get up and offer everyone a second second helping. In British English, if you want some more, you just say either yes or no, that's it. In Irish culture, it's very important that you say no for at least three times and then say yes and eat it and enjoy it. So you you have to go through this cultural conversation, and if you don't, it's seen as not being respectful to the cook and the person who's made a lot of effort. Now you would only pick that up if you are aware of the culture, and if you don't do it, you might not be perceived as rude if you're from a different culture, people would know, but it would be noted there would be a little bit of friction there, and it just means that if you can pick up on things like that, things maybe are a little bit easier. So that's just two examples. One that's um that I think probably many people can relate to in the office or in the work environment today, and and again how culture can even with it when you're all speaking the same language, can can mean that we uh give the wrong give the wrong impression.

SPEAKER_01 20:10

Yeah, and it could also be a way to integrate and be accepted in certain groups when you send cues that you understand the language the culture, not just the language, people appreciate it, yes.

SPEAKER_00 20:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 20:24

So so let's dive into practical tips and tricks that our listeners can can take away from all of this. I think there are so many other situations we can share, but what can people do to become more culturally aware as communicators?

SPEAKER_00 20:39

Yes, I mean this is a this is a huge question, and I know um you know there's lots of different things. So I've I've just thought about a few different examples that hopefully um people can apply in different ways. I think the first one you've already touched on, Helen, is really to to learn languages, to actually try to learn a language, because I think it's only when you have put yourself in that position that you start to understand the complexity of it, but also the joy of it. And I think the joy of it is important because once you find the joy of it, and and I am I I'm addicted almost to learning new languages, I think, once you've tried it, it's not just an intellectual exercise, it's a way of stepping into someone else's world. And I think when you do that for yourself, you start to see that the problem as something else. You start to see that problem as an opportunity to be curious, to learn about ways of thinking that's different, but also to learn about our own filter on the world. And obviously, as a coach, that's that's where I'm coming from. Can we understand our own filters first? So that would be my first point that is maybe maybe missed, I think, um, in lots of in lots of these kinds of discussions. I think there are some very Practical things that the doctor who helped me demonstrated. If you're the person who is helping someone else to feel part of a community or they're not able to speak the language very well, the way you can help is really simple. It's about being patient, being kind, giving people time, showing interest. Again, I come back to that curiosity. I think it's it's very reassuring when somebody asks you back the other way, or how would you say that in your language? It gives you an opportunity to share and to be the expert in a way, and so so that to rebalance that relationship because we touched on it before, but it is about power as well, let's be honest. The person who is more fluent really does have that advantage, and they may not realize it as well, but it's definitely there. If you are the learner, the person who's trying to assimilate into that language and immerse yourself, I think the first thing is not to give up and not to and not to count success by the number of tenses that you've mastered or the amount of vocabulary that you have, but really by the quality of interaction and the quality of connection that you're able to have. And as I showed with the story of the doctor, you can do that with an envelope and a list of words. It it doesn't require you to be perfect in order to connect with people, and I think it's important to keep that in mind. Um with a global team, I think it's the same kind of thing, but just applied to that. And it starts by celebrating diversity, not seeing it as a problem. Having seeing the opportunity for new thoughts and innovation just by thinking about the words we use, just by noticing, oh, you use that and I use this. What does that say about the problem? And so often we can have new ideas by trying to join the dots across cultures and across languages. Social time, I think, is is vital for global teams. I know it's hard when everyone's sitting behind a screen, but if it is possible to get together, having social time, especially over a meal or a coffee, I think makes such a difference. And partly because the conversation is low risk. If you're talking about food, um it's it's low risk and everybody has something to contribute to the discussion. So it creates a level playing field which I think can rebalance relationships a little bit. So though those three things is what I would where I would start. Thank you, Anne.

SPEAKER_01 24:42

It's packed with with tips, what you just shared. Um so it's really about building the relationship, building the connection. I think even the non-verbal says a lot as well when you're struggling with the language itself. I speak I work with people every day from around the world that use English or other languages, and it's usually not their native language, and they still are able to communicate what they are saying because they sometimes repeat their thought or pause to ask questions, or like you said, just take the time to build the relationship with the people, ask them about their family, ask them how they are doing, uh, share anecdotes, anything that helps connect at a human level makes it much easier to then say that okay, so this person is expressing some something that I'm not understanding. Maybe they mean something else. Always have good intentions, don't judge, don't be too quick to judge. Yes. And be curious about what they are really trying to express. Ask questions when it's not clear to you, but start with a good foundation of you know the curiosity and building the relationship. I think this one that you mentioned is so important. Just the chit-chat, the talking about the weather. It's important, regardless of the culture. I think that's connects us globally as human beings.

SPEAKER_00 26:03

Totally. And I have a really good example of that. When I was teaching English in France, I had a language school for adults, and I had a student who came to me who was working with a global company and had been told that they needed to change the tone of their emails, and she couldn't understand why, but she did know that the person she was communicating with in English in England, it wasn't, it wasn't going well. And she showed me some of the emails, and I saw immediately that this was not going well. I could see that the person on the receiving end was replying with very brusque answers, and there was definitely some tension there. So when I looked at her emails and realised that she was she was diving straight in with what she needed, which was perfectly fine. She was being very efficient, very clear. There was no problem with her English at all. But then I looked at the original replies from her counterpart, and they were full of little questions about what did you do at the weekend? How's the family? Well, the weather here is great. And she hadn't picked up on that, on that cultural cue. Now, I don't think that's necessarily um a language issue either. I think you would find the same in French as well. You'd find that that bit of chit-chat is also really important for a lot of people. So it's not just a language issue, but it is about just reading between the lines a little bit more and picking up on that. So we worked on it, and I didn't want to tell her to become a different person, but I just said to her, well, why don't we, why don't we just experiment and just try to mirror what she is doing and see if it makes a difference? And so that following week she started to just put start with her with in her email, just a little thing about the weather and or the weekend and how she was. And within a week, the relationship had totally changed, so much so that they'd actually spoken on the phone and had a little bit of a conversation. And I was amazed at how much difference that had made. She was amazed, and it was so interesting to see how that those cultural and linguistic cues are vital for oiling the wheels. They weren't interesting conversations, they didn't suddenly change how they were working, if really, but something changed there. Somehow that had made for the for the for the woman in the UK, that had served to make a connection. And that's what started to make the difference. So it's really fascinating. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:40

And I love the experimentation mindset that you encouraged her to go through as well. Experimenting something different, mirroring how people are behaving and communicating could could be helpful, especially when it's in written communication. I think it's easier than trying to mirror something we don't understand.

SPEAKER_00 28:58

Especially in French. In French, Helen, the end of emails, that's a that's a that's a minefield, isn't it? Deciding how to finish off an email in French. And the the easiest thing is just to copy what you've received.

SPEAKER_01 29:12

100%. There are like some subtleties that you need to to learn to to navigate to be to be polite in the right in the right way. So this has been such an interesting conversation. I know we can go on and on about this, and and I thank you, Anne, for sharing all these insights and your experience. If there is just one thing you would uh end this with, what would you say?

SPEAKER_00 29:36

Oh, well, thank you, first of all. It's been such a pleasure and so so lovely for me to really think about it, to be honest, in in this very structured way. I think if there's one thing, it is this message about focusing on connection rather than just communication. Um, and forget the notion that it has to be perfect communication and let's focus on the joy of learning about each other's worlds because we're all so different, and everybody has a story to tell and a world that they inhabit. And wouldn't it be great if we could just understand that of each other just a little bit more?

SPEAKER_01 30:17

I love it, and thank you so much. Um, and thank you for your time. For those who are listening, if you like this conversation, don't hesitate to share it and continue the conversation. Thank you again, Anne, and uh see you soon. Thank you so much, Ellen. Thank you. Bye bye.