Episode 8: The Chocolate Sampler Box!

Join us in the episode of Wisdom Teller where we cover a little taste of all the flavors! From time travel manifesting, teachers who made a difference, Status Anxiety, percussive primates and conscious cooperation, to cuckoo bird babies, QR code overload, the tech middle way, and Dutch avondvierdaagse- take a bite of them all!

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Recording it from Yay! How are you doing? Good morning. I'm doing well. And I'm always, you know, for our listeners, the reason we always say yay is because we're just so happy it worked.

SPEAKER_01 0:18

Yes. There's lots of room for growth and celebration with us, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_00 0:24

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 0:25

And speaking of room for growth and celebration, this episode, we don't have an interview. Once again, we were both really excited because we had this list of things that we wanted to talk about. But also, I have a major construction project going on in the apartment right above me. And I don't know what is going on. Sometimes it's quiet, sometimes it sounds like Gaudi rebuilding La Sagrada Familia or something up there because there's circular saws, there's hammers, there's yelling, there's all kinds of things going on. But I'm really excited to talk to you about all kinds of stuff. Me too.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

I can't wait. And I have a couple addendum for us.

SPEAKER_01 1:03

Ooh, okay, that sounds fantastic. Do you want to start with those?

SPEAKER_00 1:06

Yeah, I do. But before we start, I want to say that last week I asked you, what do you consider an ad hoc? And what do you consider an addendum? So I wanted to bring that up real quick. So I consider an ad hoc something that we're just talking about impromptu for the moment that we have not brought up before that we wanted to say. And then I think of an addendum as something that we mentioned last time that we want to add on to.

SPEAKER_01 1:28

Is that how you think of it? Yes, pretty much. I consider it also an ad hoc if it is loosely somehow related to something we talked about. Otherwise, it would just be a brand new subject. It wasn't what we talked about, but it made me think of it. Or, but the reality is, who cares? It's just a category.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

No, but it's so fun. Listen, I like taxonomy. I want to distinguish these things. That's true. That's true.

SPEAKER_01 1:55

We must categorize these.

SPEAKER_00 1:57

We must. So then I have an ad hoc and I have an addendum. I'm going to tell you the addendum first because it is so exciting and delightful. When we had Mandy on, we were talking about the Gasparilla Music Festival. And I was saying that Melody Bridge, the band of Evan Cotellas, who was the kid that I babysat for, should be at the Gasparilla Music Festival. So she texted me yesterday and she sent me a song and she's like, oh my God, they were at the Gasparilla Music Festival. No, yeah. So they already play there. I'm so excited for them.

SPEAKER_01 2:30

Wait, this past Gasparilla Music Festival? Oh my gosh, that's crazy. You maybe your powers of manifestation were so strong that they traveled back in time and drove again in the Gaspar.

SPEAKER_00 2:42

I love that so much. Well, so she said that what triggered it for her was this one song came on her Spotify, and she's like, Oh, they were there. So that's wonderful. I'm so delighted.

SPEAKER_01 2:57

That's exactly right.

SPEAKER_00 2:59

And then speaking of Rich, my ad hoc, last time he was talking about a teacher that really made a difference in his life. He took every single class the teacher offered. And it made me think at the time of a teacher I had in high school named Mr. West Herazda. And I always wonder what the heck happened to him. In high school, I would say that I was not the me that I am now. I was in the transition between being raised conservative Catholic schoolgirl into more liberal and creative me. And so I went to two different high schools. So this high school was the real kind of hippie, liberal kind of high school. And he was a Buddhist teacher. And I remember he taught ancient history. He became a Buddhist later in life. And I remember having the attitude, the teenager attitude with my hands crossed, like, what do you have to teach me? kind of attitude, even though I actually loved the class. And what I wanted to say was, I have no idea where he is now, no idea what he's doing, but that it hit me later in life, the influence that he had. He taught ancient history. I love that class. I got a hundred on one of the tests because I loved it and studied it so much. And I remember he always smelled like patchouli. And I just think No, that's the whole classroom smelled like patchouli. And I just wanted to say he's may not be listening, but thank you, Mr. West Heraza, because you did make an influence all those years later. So did everyone at that high school. The influence of that high school hit me when I was in college. And I went back and reread some of the books. Like we read Man's Search for Meaning by Victor Frankel in high school.

SPEAKER_01 4:37

We read crazy.

SPEAKER_00 4:39

Yeah, yeah. We read Siddhartha. We read all these amazing books. It was a great class. All in his class. No, that was an English class. That was Mrs. Markowitz. She had us read those books and it made a big difference. It really did.

SPEAKER_01 4:53

It's amazing. I didn't even learn some of those things in college. Do you feel comfortable saying what high school it was?

SPEAKER_00 5:00

Yeah, these wonderful things. Oh, yeah. It was called Tampa Prep. I wasn't receptive to it at the time. I mean, I was always a really good kid. So I wasn't causing problems in high school. I was just not happy. And I would just walk through high school like, I just want to get out of here, you know. And but then I don't know, the freedom and delightfulness of college and the learning of college, it helped me to see what I had been given in that high school. And ended up just going back and rereading some of these things and really appreciating. We read, I'm gonna get the title wrong, Walden Pond by Thoreau. Yeah. So we read that. Those were great books to have students read.

SPEAKER_01 5:39

What nurturing fuel.

SPEAKER_00 5:41

Yeah. So I just wanted to say when Rich was talking about his teacher and made me think about Mr. Westerasta and what a big influence he was. And a lot of those teachers, Mrs. Markowitz, a bunch of them. Oh, and my favorite was a guy named Mr. Touchden. And he taught Mr. Touchden. Yeah, he taught physics. And I just, I don't know why, because I'm not a math person, but I just loved his classes. I took two of his classes because I loved physics so much. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 6:09

Okay, just the fact that you learned physics in high school is incredible. Yeah. And it really, okay, first of all, you talked about high school being a transition for you. I beg you to find me a person for whom high school was not a major transition, even if they didn't change high schools. Second of all, there are very few people, I believe, for whom high school was not a horrendous experience.

SPEAKER_00 6:35

I'm glad you're saying that because, in my recollection, there were people that looked like they were just living their best life in high school, you know?

SPEAKER_01 6:43

And some people do. Some people do live their best life in high school. For me, it wasn't a horrendous experience. I have a feeling that's because I wasn't paying attention to life at that point of my life. But when I looked around, I saw what was happening and taking place, and also in popular culture across time, if you think about so many coming of age movies, it's all about how high school was just such a horrible place. What's the really famous movie from the 80s? Was it The Breakfast Club?

SPEAKER_00 7:08

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:09

That talks about each of the people and being in the different cliques and how horrible it was for most of them.

SPEAKER_00 7:14

I think I did not bloom or blossom until college, but I loved college. And when I say that, I was not a partier, I was a studier, but I loved what I got to study in college. Loved it.

SPEAKER_01 7:27

Okay, so the last point for high school is that it really emphasizes the crucial nature of education because you were able to go to a place that was more progressive and it had teachers that had a certain background and they had a certain education and were able to offer what they were able to offer. And that's why when people say that education isn't so important and don't put funding toward education for the public school system, it makes an entire life really challenging. Because think about if you didn't have any of that foundation, one of the reasons maybe why you were even able to choose the college that you did and choose the classes that you did in college and have the experience might have been because of the foundation that you had prior to that in the school system. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:16

I was very fortunate to be able to go to that school and get that education. And even though I was half interested, I was just so miserable in high school. I don't know why. It's like I remember being in college and my mom's like, Oh, thank God you're back. Meaning, like, I was always so happy, first grade through eighth grade, class president, totally happy. And then hit high school and it was the miserable years. But even so, some influence, positive influence, trickled in. I was poetry writing, not talking to any, if you can imagine, not talking to a single soul. I would go through the hall and just look down and keep walking and go to class. Every day I was like, when is three o'clock coming? I can't wait to leave this place.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

Yes. Well, I joined in welcome back because you are that's the anathema of what you are now. You are a completely different spirit. So thank you. Well, you mentioned our guest Rich Mori, and I actually have an apology for Rich. Okay. Because I was so greedy wanting to hear the songs I wanted him to play that we ran out of time for us to ask him which song he wanted to play.

SPEAKER_00 9:30

And that is so funny. I I apologize too then. I you're right.

SPEAKER_01 9:35

Well, it's only a short period of time that we have, but that's not an excuse for me. So I actually have a really obvious and genius solution, and that is that we invite him back for the September launch of his yet-to-be-named EP.

SPEAKER_00 9:48

I love that plant so much. Yes. Okay, let's do it.

SPEAKER_01 9:51

I thought you liked that. And then I did have an agenda. Okay. And that is just to mention that one of the things that we didn't talk about is that you created the cover art for one of his singles. Is that right?

SPEAKER_00 10:04

Oh my gosh, yes, thank you. I did. When he asked me, I was like, what? Me? What? But yeah, I did. I created the cover art for his song free.

SPEAKER_01 10:12

And I oh my gosh, he's working feverishly right now to get that launched in time for July 4th.

SPEAKER_00 10:19

Yeah, and I feel honored, just completely honored.

SPEAKER_01 10:22

Okay, so by the time this comes out, he will have already launched that. So everybody can not only listen to his new single free, but also get to see your cover art that you created. Yes, yes. Wonderful. Oh, I love that. Okay, I'm glad that we talked about that. I'm glad we apologized. That's all I had for ad hoc's addendums and apologies. Was there anything in particular that you wanted to start out with that was really compelling and just needed to be said?

SPEAKER_00 10:49

I don't know if it's urgently compelling, but I did think it was interesting. I had this conversation. Maybe this will help somebody who's feeling badly about themselves for being a procrastinator. I had this conversation with somebody yesterday who was saying that they thought they were a procrastinator. Well, I know this person, and I was like, there is no way you are a procrastinator. And they're like, Yeah, but I have been putting this thing off, blah, blah, blah. Well, I happen to know that while they've been putting this one thing off, they've been working feverishly at this other thing. And so then it led me to start thinking about the difference between prioritization and procrastination. So I think that sometimes when you put things off, it may feel like you're procrastinating, but if you're putting your energy into something more important, something that's right in the moment that you have got to do, that really you're prioritizing. Now, I'm not giving people permission to procrastinate, but I'm reframing that maybe you really are not procrastinating. Maybe you actually are just prioritizing, right? Yes, triage. Triage. Yeah, you mentioned it earlier to me. Triage, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 11:59

I think that's a very good point because I also think with procrastination, there is a negative connotation behind it because of the reason why it's happening. So procrastinating is more about, well, maybe they're fearful of starting it, or maybe they're fearful of not achieving it or of it not coming to fruition. And so I think that's a really nice point to bring about because there's so much out there about procrastination and it being a negative thing. But you're right, it could just be somebody has let that label fall over them when it really doesn't apply in their situation. Yeah. I was going to save this for a little bit later because it's kind of a chewy topic, but it folds into what you're saying because we had talked about self-actualization and about being our best and whether the best is flourishing. And I read the most thought-provoking article. It's called Status Anxiety is Ambition Just Insecurity in Disguise. And it's interesting that you brought this up about procrastination versus prioritization because this is similar about how we look at things. So this article's by a writer named Thomas Chamorro Pramuzic. He's a professor of business psychology at University College in London, and he's also the chief science officer at this really famous executive recruiting firm and a bunch of very other ambitious things he does. And I would really recommend you get your hands on it. It's a long read, so I'm not going to go over everything, but I wanted to get your thoughts on a few of the bigger, chewyer points here. Okay. He starts talking about Spinoza, Benedictus Spinoza, who was a philosopher in the 17th century. Yep. This pretty radical fellow. I'm sure you've heard of him, especially with the high school education that you had. He was probably right in there. But he believed that there's only one infinite substance in the universe. And he called it God or nature. He said they were the same. And that everything in existence is an expression of that reality, like quantum physics, right? Everything comes from the same energy source. Our atoms just vibrate at different rates and in different ways. So Spinoza's political and ethical philosophy was that true human freedom, we've been talking about freedom lately, can only come from understanding emotions and accepting what can't be controlled by us. Wow. Right? I mean, that's a whole episode. Okay, so back to the article on ambition and status anxiety. So the author starts talking about Spinoza's definition of ambition as this is a quote, this insatiable craving for other people's validation. Oh, interesting. Yeah, and then supports that by explaining that modern psychology spent extensive effort confirming that for many people, of course, this isn't true for all people, that quote, ambition at its root for many people may be less about drive than about anxiety, and less about what we want to achieve, and more about the fear we have about what people will think about us if we don't achieve. So basically a pathological desire for the approval of others.

SPEAKER_00 15:12

That is so interesting. Okay, I have so many questions, but it's interesting because I was filling out an online profile for something once, and they had a checklist of qualities, and it said, Are you ambitious? And I put, not really, no. And somebody said, Yeah, but you've got these different degrees and all these achievements and stuff. And I was like, but that's different. Achievement's different than ambition. And it's for this exact reason. It's because I have a negative connotation with ambition. Somebody might say that me wanting to self-actualize was ambitious, but I think there's a motivation in my mind, taxonomy-wise, let's say there's to me a motivation behind ambition that is like a greed or a power or something for the reasons you just got done saying, it's tainted with uh maybe not pure motivation. Whereas I think achievement and drive are different than ambition.

SPEAKER_01 16:06

It's so interesting you said that. That is so insightful and wise that you pulled that out of it. Because the author gives us this foundation of this information and talks about what is his name? Alfred Adler. He was a collaborator with Freud and inferiority complex. And that the reason why we want recognition is it's a response to our inner fears, that we're inferior, that we're not enough, and that the worse our fear is, and the more we doubt ourselves, and the harder we work to persuade others that we are worthy. And but then the author, he expands the lens and he says that in personality research, it defines ambition as setting challenging goals and then consistently striving to pursue those goals and getting our identity from those pursuits and those achievements. And that ambition is one of the strongest predictors of career success and income level and productivity across our lifespan, even more than raw intelligence or technical skill. But that ambition is never satisfied. And that what drives continuous striving for many people isn't the reward at the end or the degree or the medal or the title or the salary. It's the temporary relief it provides from our anxiety about not being enough and feelings of insecurity and inferiority. And so what you're saying is so interesting that for some people, ambition, there's an element that comes with it that doesn't have to just do with setting a goal and wanting to achieve it, but that wanting to be comparatively better than somebody else is viewed negatively.

SPEAKER_00 17:48

Yeah, or that the motivation behind it, what's driving it, is a need for power or a need for greed. I can see ambition in one light as a good thing, as you said, setting goals and achieving them. But for some reason, I've always had a kind of slightly negative connotation with that word. And words like achievement and drive feel different to me. If somebody said I was ambitious, I would feel like that was less of a compliment than if they said I'm an achiever or a goal setter, goal-oriented.

SPEAKER_01 18:20

Yes, that's interesting because when I was growing up, my grandfather had this expression that really stuck with me. And he talked about being in the garment industry in the Bronx in the 1940s. And he talked about how competitive it was. And there was a lot of mafia involvement then. It was even dangerous to be in that field. But he talked about ambition also as being a negative thing. And he said that people that were the most ambitious around him, they climbed up the backs of others on the knives they placed in them.

SPEAKER_02 18:53

Ooh.

SPEAKER_01 18:54

Yeah, and it was so graphic. And I could really visualize. And you could tell that for him it was a visceral feeling. And you could tell it probably came from personal experience. He probably got stabbed in the back more than once by people that maybe he thought were friends, that turned out to be competitors, or maybe people that he thought were with him when they were against him. So it's really interesting exploring this topic. And he wraps up the article with the pros and cons of this status anxiety, because that's really what he's talking about here as one of the motivators for ambition. He said that one of the pros is that it motivates people and it motivates them to go beyond their self-interest. Before I mentioned Gaudi creating the Sagrata Familia Cathedral, even though he knew it wouldn't be completed in his lifetime, he still did it. Or scientists who pursue medical cures throughout their whole career, they know their work might not be recognized or successful, but they want to set a foundation for other people. So that was one of his pros for status anxiety that fuels ambition.

SPEAKER_00 19:57

When I think about ambition, it feels like it's for external gratification rather than internal gratification. I mean, I really like what your papa said. I feel like the word ambition lacks a humility. You know, it's not achievement for achievement's sake that even if no one ever knew, you would feel good about it. It's achievement that you want to splash all over, you know, you want everyone to know. Is that am I making sense?

SPEAKER_01 20:24

Like there's a there's a lack of humility there. If you are from the same school of thought as Spinoza and Adler, then that is what they're saying, that ambition is fueled by this inferiority complex and the desire to have what you do recognized. Recognized just achieving it. Yes. Yeah. Now, this one I think is interesting. The second pro that he had is he says that caring what others think about you isn't a bad thing, it's actually evolution and that it's a social contract because human survival depends on group belonging and it depends on what others think of you. And the ability to feel something when others think positively or negatively of you is important because the opposite of that, not caring at all what others think about you or what others think can be really dangerous, right? It can be narcissism or even sociopathic. I think that caring about what others think is a bad thing when it is an obsession about caring what others think. That's when I think ambition can cause challenges. Yeah, it's balance. Like your Siddhartha, it's the middle way versus the extremes on each other. The middle way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:35

You know what I'm wondering is have social scientists looked into other animals? Are other animals ambitious? Or is it just human beings that are ambitious?

SPEAKER_01 21:46

What a good question. I'm by no means an animal scientist, but the first thing I think about is going back to what you said about it depends upon why people are being ambitious. Because if they're being ambitious because they're highly competitive. Well, many animal species are highly competitive and it's the only way they survive. So, in that way, is that ambition? Um, because it's not necessarily goal-oriented. It's just they know that this is their territory and they have mates in that territory, and they have their cubs in that territory, and that's the future of their lineage. And so they need to fight and compete for that.

SPEAKER_00 22:24

Yeah, I was thinking like a silverback gorilla maybe has to do something to get to the top. I don't know. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 22:30

And would we consider that ambition? Don't know. That could be a whole PhD dissertation, probably on the comparison between them.

SPEAKER_00 22:38

It's a really interesting take on it. And I kind of resonate because for some reason that word has always kind of rubbed me the wrong way. But whereas, like an achiever is a totally positive thing to me.

SPEAKER_01 22:51

So maybe it's the nomenclature to go back to your taxonomy. Yeah. It'll be interesting to figure out the difference between those two things, ambition and achievement. We'll do a survey.

SPEAKER_00 23:00

We should. You know, Brene Brown does these kinds of conversations all the time about the nuances, but I do think there's a lack of humility in ambition. And I like the achievers that are somewhat humble, you know.

SPEAKER_01 23:12

You like the humility. Yeah, because there's many stories that have been written about hubris and how hubris is the downfall of people. And so I think we've been warned many times that you know, don't get too arrogant there. Don't get don't fly too close to the sun with those wax wings, right? Exactly. You brought up the jungle and you brought up gorillas. So can I switch subjects and tell you about something that I read this week that I thought really made me think of your drumming? Oh my gosh, yes, please. Well, it's about chimps, and that's why the segue between gorillas and the jungle, because BBC Science Focus had an article about chimps drumming. Oh my god. It was so interesting. It was saying that there was a study that came out that they observed wild chimpanzees in Africa being observed beating actual rhythms on trees using their hands and feet. Oh my god. I know. They drum on the large roots, those big giant roots at the base of the tree, and it creates these thunks. Yeah, and this is the part that I thought was really interesting. They can carry over half a mile through the forest, and it's said to be a form of long-distance communication.

SPEAKER_00 24:23

That's what I was when you said that it can carry that far. I was wondering if it's communication, how interesting.

SPEAKER_01 24:28

One of the things that was groundbreaking about this research is that they found drumming patterns in the chimps, and that different patterns differed because of the geographic location of the chimp. Oh my god. And so this was really wild. The chimps in West Africa drum with evenly spaced hits. So bum bum bum bum. And the chimps in East Africa alternate between shorter and longer intervals between hits. So bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum. So the researchers are suggesting that humans' ability to play and enjoy rhythmic music has its origins in our evolutionary ancestors. Isn't that crazy?

SPEAKER_00 25:12

Oh my god, Danielle, this makes so much sense. I'm being primitive in my wanting to drum. But no, really, I think this feels like a significant discovery that they communicate this way. And I think it's just delightful, besides.

SPEAKER_01 25:26

Yes, we've been talking about drumming and instruments and stuff. That really caught my eye. I thought you'd appreciate that.

SPEAKER_00 25:32

I wonder why the different rhythms. I wonder what the significance is of those different rhythms in the different regions.

SPEAKER_01 25:40

Yes, and why in the different geographic areas? Did it just catch on? It's like that hundredth monkey.

SPEAKER_00 25:46

I was just literally just gonna say the hundredth monkey. Right. Did it catch on? Do you want to explain hundredth monkey to the listeners? I would give such a paltry explanation. Me too. I mean, it's kind of like the tipping point of a new innovation. It reaches a tipping point to where I'm not gonna say this right, but you will discover that this group on this island is doing this thing. And when a certain number of people or chimps start doing that thing, then there's almost like a cosmic tipping point where you'll start to observe on other islands other groups starting to do it. Did I make that? That's perfect.

SPEAKER_01 26:24

Yeah, because the study in particular, it was the hundredth monkey. When the hundredth monkey started doing X, and I can't remember what X was, wouldn't it be crazy if that was drumming? I feel like it was using a tool though for something. Yeah. Poking a tool into the anthill to get the ants or something like that. That they observe when the hundredth monkey did it on X Island, that monkeys started doing it on the other islands.

SPEAKER_00 26:46

Yeah. So it's like a cosmic tipping point for when people or animals adopt a certain behavior. I just think, oh, we're gonna have to do an addendum on that because that is fascinating to me.

SPEAKER_01 26:58

Yes. And actually, that might be another study that they need to do altogether because just to find out that they're drumming geographically, I can imagine that knowing why that differs is a completely different grant.

SPEAKER_00 27:11

Yeah, yeah, a different, different funding. But I do, yeah, I am curious of why the different patterns in the different locations.

SPEAKER_01 27:18

Okay, we'll look that up and then we'll come back with an addendum.

SPEAKER_00 27:21

Yeah, that's so interesting to me. Well, I have an article that I want to share that I was reading this week that there are so many deaths from heat waves in Paris. I mean, there's a heat wave going on across the planet, at least here in the United States. But what I was reading specifically is that the morgues are starting to fill up too quickly because of the number of deaths in Paris. And the gist of the article was that about 85% of the registered deaths involve people ages 65 and above. And that in 2003, there was a historically high temperature that caused a slew of deaths and trended to more elderly people, and that the same thing is now happening again. And so the point of the article, it was a PBS article, was that we need to check on our neighbors. People are having less interaction. And that when we check on our neighbors, especially elderly people, to make sure they're hydrated, to make sure they have enough water, that some of these things can be prevented. But that in this case, just the combination of heat and isolation resulted in a whole lot of deaths.

SPEAKER_01 28:32

It's incredible as we keep talking about so many aspects of connection. The vulnerable during heat waves, our urban neighbors who don't have air conditioning and sometimes don't even have windows, the elderly who live alone. We tend to close our eyes to people that we don't know personally. But if we're aware of people, even if they're curmudy or difficult, I think we have a moral, ethical, you know, planetary obligation to consider whether we can play some role in making sure that they are protected and safe. I just read that Pittsburgh has a really good model for this. They suffered some kind of a huge heat wave in also maybe 2003, where they had many deaths from that. And so they right away jumped on it. They created these code red alerts in advance of the heat. They have designated cooling centers, which they also have in Europe, where people can gather for shade or even air conditioning, where businesses agree yes, if it's hot. Let them come up here. They've put up spray parks, you know, those things that they have down at Julian Bene Park in Tampa. They've got those kids' spray parks, yes, spray parks everywhere. But they also have street outreach teams who distribute water, who check on the elderly and those with disabilities. They guide, remember, we were talking about rough sleepers or homeless people or unsheltered people. They guide them to day shelters so they can have shade and they're not sitting out in the heat. They put up more tree canopies so they grow over more time to create more shade and a bunch more things with power grids and such. But Pittsburgh seems like it could be a model for other cities to say, hey, there's things we can do here. So let's do that.

SPEAKER_00 30:21

Yeah, that's really interesting. You mentioned the cooling station. Uh a couple of weeks ago in St. Pete, there was a street festival that spanned, I don't know, maybe about 10 blocks, but it was literally in the middle of Central Avenue, right on the asphalt. I mean, so burning hot, like you were boiling. And PSTA, which I think is Pinellas Sunko's Transit Authority, had a bus, and the bus was a cooling station. So you could get on the bus and enjoy the air conditioning. Well, yeah. Yeah, and they had water and stuff they were giving out. Yeah, I thought it was pretty cool, no pun intended.

SPEAKER_01 30:57

Yeah, so that's wonderful because they saw the necessity for it. And I'm hoping they made some changes in Tampa too. And I haven't been to the downtown area, but there are many bus stops in Tampa that have no shade. And people just sit out there all throughout the year. And these are people that have to take the bus every day to go to and from work. And some of the newer ones I've noticed have really nice shade over them, but many of the older ones are just a bench out in the sun.

SPEAKER_00 31:27

Yeah, and I have been here a long time in Florida, and it is getting hotter and hotter and hotter every year. And this year, it's been brutal and it's dangerous. As we found out with the example of Paris and the morgues filling up quickly, they they literally don't have enough places to put the bodies because of the quantity of people that are suffering from this.

SPEAKER_01 31:48

Yes, running out of space, like they did in COVID all over the world. Yeah, it's a very similar situation. Well, there's many things that people are shining a light on when it comes to climate change and what we need to do and what we need to not do. And this brings up a book that I was very excited to talk with you about. This is a book called Togetherness by Rowan Hooper. Did you read it? No, I want to. Okay. I think you're going to like this for so many reasons because you, as a science and biology person, it's at its core a book about symbiosis. Okay. And so symbiosis is basically about the relationships between different types of living things that live together, right? Yeah, positive relationships. Positive relationships. Yes, yes, mutually beneficial. Mutually beneficial. Hopefully. So yeah, there's three different types. There's the win-win symbiosis, like bees and flowers. They both win in that, or birds that sit on zebras and they eat the bugs for food and then they control the pest with the zebras. And then there's wind-neutral relationships like the rumora fish and the shark. The remoras get a free ride and the sharks don't get harmed, but they don't really benefit from it. But there's also win-lose relationships. So parasites like ticks and dogs, or those giant cuckoo birds that have you seen those that they lay their eggs in a smaller bird's nest, and then the smaller birds think it's their egg, and so they sit on it and warm it until it hatches. Have you seen that? No. Okay. The cuckoo birds do that? It's terrible. And then the big old cuckoo baby knocks their eggs out of the nest. And so that's more of like a parasitic, right? Okay, but I digress. So in this book, the author talks about symbiosis being a rule of all nature and occurring everywhere we look. And we have been neglecting symbiosis. And that is one of the reasons why we're having so many challenges with society and also with our environmental challenges. And so he wants us to have a new way of seeing things, to stop focusing on the individual level and reexamine all the environmental and societal ills we have today, and consider how different species live and work together, and how we can figure out how to use cooperation to right the environmental and societal wrongs that have been done.

SPEAKER_00 34:05

That sounds fascinating to me. Instead of an individualism, there's a collaborative spirit to it.

SPEAKER_01 34:11

Yes, exactly. Exactly. Like helping each other. Yes, like so many of the things that we're talking about. So you can see how this web, we talk about social networks, these webs of social networks or webs of causality, how those webs underpin everything. And when we neglect them and act like they don't exist, that's when we have these problems. I agree.

SPEAKER_00 34:32

And I do think we can look to nature. I think humans have really complicated things. I was thinking about this just the other day. I think I told you I was looking at this bird. It was a blue tangier and it was a screenshot on my computer. And in that moment, I thought, this bird just has to live. It just has to be. It gets food, it gets shelter, it mates. That's it. And we are animals, and so theoretically, we would do the same, but we have really complicated things. And you would think that we are making things better. But again, to go back to the middle way, I think that we are now out of balance. I'm going to give you an example, QR codes. Okay. This is a pet team of mine. QR codes at restaurants. And so you might say, well, what does that have to do with anything? It's an example of how humans have made things complicated. So you can't just go to the restaurant and sit down and order from the menu. Now you've got to make sure, number one, that you have your phone, that your phone is charged, that you have Wi-Fi, that the link works. Now you're going to log in, you're going to give them all your information. It becomes this chore, right? So I was reading about QR codes at restaurants and how they started. And it was from a reaction to COVID, where people thought that high-touch surfaces were spreading the disease and that they wanted to get rid of menus. But a lot of restaurants have kept these QR codes. Now I will tell you, as a person that's in front of a computer all day long, that the last thing, literally, the last thing that I want to do is download an app or get on a QR code or something like that when I go to a restaurant or even take online dating. So you do online dating, and now the person wants to have a phone call with you. Theoretically, it would be a great idea, except for you've been on 15 other phone calls throughout the day. Right. So I was looking at this article in The Atlantic called The Restaurant Industry's Worst Idea by Connor Friedersdorf. He was saying that there was a 2018 study by a social science researcher, Ryan Dwyer, that basically said smartphone use undermines enjoyment of a face-to-face social connection, even just having the phone out. But in this Atlantic article, he was saying that if we start integrating technology into the menus, they could, you know, if you're an Android user and I'm an iPhone user, they could charge different prices potentially. Or they could gather your information. And so maybe they won't show you the chocolate option because they know that you're not challenged. Yeah, because they know you're not eating chocolate because you're on a diet, but maybe you want to see the chocolate option. So there's all kinds of negative potential for this, but really it just is interfering with our social interaction. There was another article in the Journal of Hospitality and Tourism Insights that basically said older adults, and I'm considering myself one of those, get annoyed by this and they give up business. They won't go to those restaurants. Yes. And that's actually true. So there was there is a restaurant. I won't say the name, but it's in downtown St. Pete. It's a new restaurant, and it's all these different food options, almost like a food court. And I walked in and they're like, Oh, here are the directions. Well, number one, I don't want to have to read directions. Number two, I had to do a QR code, and I was like, no, I'm out, I'm out.

SPEAKER_01 38:00

Yes. So it's the same thing here. My dad, he is of the baby boomer generation, solidly planted in there. And he gets to pick where we go to eat every Sunday. And we went to a place where they had a QR code menu. And I actually felt really badly for him because he loves looking at the menu and picking out what he wants. But we had to use a QR code. And I'm really sensitive to just taking a screenshot of a QR code and going to some link, especially these days. You know, that can be really problematic. And we go to eat every Sunday for breakfast, and he will never go to that place again. So they're actually causing some harm to their own businesses. So I think there's an absence of thinking through the ramifications of actually doing this.

SPEAKER_00 38:48

And I'll give you some other examples. Okay, I've never been to a baseball game until two weeks ago, and I went to a baseball game. Congratulations. Yeah, thank you so much. And actually, my cousin, he was drafted to the Detroit Tigers. He's in the minor leagues. Wow. Yeah. And he's a catcher. And he's just, we're all super proud of him. But that's an aside. But so I'm trying to embrace baseball. But I had to download an app to get the ticket to go into the thing. Now, when you download the app, you have to enter all your information, your name, your address. I just, I don't want to do that. And so the point and why I'm rambling on about this whole topic is back to your togetherness book and symbiosis, is that I think humans are complicating things. Some things have really benefited from technology and have simplified, definitely. And I think we're now out of balance. I think we've gotten to the tipping point where we are just complicating things and we're having to use more technology to solve problems that the technology created in the first place.

SPEAKER_01 39:48

We're also being required to use technology, and we cannot access certain resources without using that technology.

SPEAKER_00 39:56

It just complicates things that could be absolutely simple. And I don't like it. I wish that we could go to simpler times. I find that it makes things less enjoyable. And I don't know if you remember the book or the movie, because they made a movie of it, Cloud Atlas. Do you remember that book?

SPEAKER_01 40:13

How I was like, of course, that's one of my favorite of all time.

SPEAKER_00 40:16

Yeah, me too. Did you ever see the movie?

SPEAKER_01 40:18

I did see the movie. It wasn't as good as the book to me. But how do you? I mean, a book like that, that's one of the first things I thought is how do you convey that multiplicity and crossing across timelines? And oh, it was magnificent.

SPEAKER_00 40:31

I don't know, but there was a part of the movie and the book, but the visual is what stands out to me that was futuristic, where they had all these robot Android AI people serving at the restaurant. And long story short, one of them became humanized and didn't want to do this anymore. And it was about how they would expire after a certain period of time. They would be blown out and they're new, and the whole thing, it was just so creepy. And it makes me think I don't want to live in a world that becomes like that. And I can imagine that we might get there in this lifetime, but I don't want, I really appreciate simplicity. I'm gonna give you another example. There is a parking garage in downtown St. Pete associated with the Sundial movie theater area. So a new group took over this parking lot. So it used to be an attendant, but one day I go to use this and there is a QR code. Oh, and so you had to download it and it didn't work for me. And there was a message on the board if that doesn't work, text such and such number. So I texted the number and the arm went up. Okay. So you think no charge, you just go out. I was like, okay. Then I got a letter two weeks later saying that I didn't pay the two dollars. No, now they were charging me $20.

SPEAKER_01 41:55

No, yes. Oh no, they didn't.

SPEAKER_00 41:58

They did. And anyway, long story short, I don't park there anymore. It's a technology issue. I will be happy to pay you your two dollars if you make paying your two dollars accessible for me. That's the other thing. Accessibility, like you were saying, what if you can't really afford a fancy phone? Or what if you don't have access to these things? Or what if you don't have good vision? Or you're cognitively impaired? What are you really supposed to do? You know?

SPEAKER_01 42:24

Yes. Isn't it interesting that the focus on technology is creating a whole nother aspect of accessibility? And in some ways, technology creates accessibility for people who have challenges. So yes, technology is amazing now. They're actually having people that were paralyzed that can now move limbs. There are people that couldn't hear, they can now hear. But in the process, we also have to be careful that we're not creating accessibility issues for people that can't use technology. And that's the technological divide that we've always talked about. There's this chasm between people that have access to technology and people that don't. And the people that have access to it, they can do A, B, and C. And it really separates even further the people that don't have access to technology or can't use technology.

SPEAKER_00 43:11

I totally agree that technological advancement has really helped people. It's a matter of mindful technology. It's a matter of what are we really doing? And do we have redundancy built in? Do we have a backup system? What if the power goes out? What if you're at public or at a restaurant and they can't check you out with their iPad? Can you give them cash? Is there a redundancy built in, like an analog? So I'm just saying it's something to think about according to these two studies, are creating barriers between people connecting. And I think we need to really connect as much as we can now.

SPEAKER_01 43:50

Yes. And so, even more emphasizing what Rowan Hooper's trying to say in togetherness and about symbiosis, it's having that systems thinking and thinking about all the different Different connections in that system and how they're impacted, and not just the one in particular that benefits us.

SPEAKER_00 44:06

I have a book I want to recommend. It's a fiction book and it's called Gentlemen in Moscow. Have you read it?

SPEAKER_01 44:13

Oh, no.

SPEAKER_00 44:14

It is so good. And what it has to do with symbiosis is basically the short version is a man during the revolution is tried, or post-revolution is tried and convicted. His sentence is that he has to live on house arrest and he lives in a hotel.

SPEAKER_02 44:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 44:33

So for the rest of his life, he has to live in this hotel on house arrest. Okay. And it's so interesting to see the book kind of goes along slowly, but in a beautiful way. It almost mirrors the pace of his life, but it shows the relationships he builds, the people he gets to know and encounter, and the life, the rich, beautiful life that he ends up creating in this hotel for himself. It is such a beautiful book. You have to read it. It's called A Gentleman in Moscow.

SPEAKER_01 45:05

It's really inspiring sometimes when those kind of books make us remember why it's important to get out of bed in the morning. Yeah. But then also when we do to connect with other people and explore and examine. It's like when you talked about Theo of Golden. He could have just gone to those coffee shops and admired the portraits of the locals on the walls, but instead he bought one each time. And then he went out and he delivered it to them. And when he did that, he talked to them and he asked their stories and he wanted to learn about them and hear about them. And you know, I will say this that is one of the reasons why what you said at one of the other episodes about people moving to places that resonate with them more, that are more aligned with how they want to live their lives, because there are places in the world and in the country where you can be more aligned with a culture that's more resonant with you, that is a slower pace or is a simpler life, or they support the things that you support and they want to work towards those. Now that's not an option for everybody. Not everybody can just get up and move and walk away. And so that's when it does become important to consider. Well, can I create this where I am? Can I, you know, quote unquote shelter in place and without being isolating? We've talked about that. How can I create this where I am if I can't go someplace else?

SPEAKER_00 46:28

Yeah, like bloom where you're planted. And by the way, I want to take a moment to do an apology to technology. I am not anti-technology. Like I am definitely pro-technology. It's just with limits.

SPEAKER_01 46:43

Well, speaking of uh simpler life, I want to talk about a Guardian article that I read. And the title of it is Dutch Children Are Unusually Happy and Healthy. Is it because of Avon Vierde Augs? I am 100% confident that there's going to be an apology next time for how I said that, but that's phonetically how it was spelled to me. And I don't have a Dutch accent at all. But avond Vierde Ags means literally a four-day evening walk. Oh my god, how lovely. It's a walking festival that takes place every year across the Netherlands. It takes place over four nights, and parents take their children, hundreds of thousands of them, over the country on a 5k or a 10K route. And the purpose is to explore their neighborhoods, meet their neighbors, exercise, and make new friends. Oh my god. Can we please do that?

SPEAKER_00 47:38

I want to do that.

SPEAKER_01 47:39

Oh my god. I know. So the children don't compete. It's not a competition, but those who compete every night of it get medals and a bouquet of flowers, and then people give them lots of sweets. And I thought it was so interesting because it started from military ideology. They had the first march in the early 1900s as a military training event in Holland. But after the Second World War broke out, different towns then organized their own walks for their soldiers. And then after the war, the citizens were invited to walk along with them. And it became a show of solidarity with their soldier family. And now though, it's aimed at primary school children and their parents. And what I thought was really interesting about this, and why I thought it would resonate with you also is because Dutch kids are apparently judged to be some of the happiest in the world. And they say it's obviously not just from these four nights once a year, but that the walk is a symbol of what's important to the Dutch, which includes things like having really rich social relationships and networks and the increased independence to roam more freely. Dutch kids, they start really young with them cycling to and from school by themselves. And then also being outdoors. And they said there's low academic pressure for kids so that they can be children first. And they heavily prioritize play and social skills over structured academics from an early age and also work life balance. And so this walk represents all those different things.

SPEAKER_00 49:17

Oh my gosh, it sounds lovely. And now you made me think again about ambition, right? And about I wonder if you measured if Dutch people would consider themselves ambitious. Doesn't mean they're not achievers, but are they ambitious? Yes. And that they're happier. I just want to mention one more quick thing.

SPEAKER_01 49:35

And this was really cute. So maybe we want to start our own avon veer dogs because it has a traditional delicacy, which I thought was so interesting. Yeah. They take half an orange, okay, they top it with a white peppermint lozenge. You know, the kinds that they give away sometimes at restaurants at the end, it's like a lifesaver, but not with a hole in it. Do you know what I'm talking about? Yeah, I do know. So in Holland, they have a really famous one. It's called the Wilhelmina Peppermint. And then they put that on the top of the orange, they wrap it in a cheesecloth. And then the kids, as they're walking throughout the night, they suck on the juice from that as they walk. Orange and peppermint. Oh my God, that's fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 50:15

Oh my God. I I wish you were right here. We could go on a we could go on a four-day walk. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 50:20

I would love to do that. So, yes, so that was my um my closeout for avon Virgogs. I thought that was just the such a neat ritual and tradition. That would be really fun, quite fun to do every year.

SPEAKER_00 50:32

It's so lovely. Thank you for everything that you talked about today. It was very interesting.

SPEAKER_01 50:37

Yes. Such good thoughts, and I appreciate your perspectives on them as always. And I appreciate you as always.

SPEAKER_00 50:44

I appreciate you too. I hope you have a good rest of your day.

SPEAKER_01 50:47

Thank you. Have a beautiful weekend. Hey, you too. Thank you. Bye.