Episode 14: Ernest Hemingway, "A Farewell To Arms" (1929)

In this episode we explore Ernest Hemingway and his 1929 novel, "A Farewell To Arms".

In our next episode (15) we explore Ska Pop Phenomenon Madness’s 1982 Compilation album – Complete Madness! 44 years and 18 more Best of collections later they are still going strong. Use the link below to take us down a rabbit hole !

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Transcript

SPEAKER_06 0:28

Welcome back to the NBA podcast, where we explore the side streets and rabbit holes around movies, books, and albums. In this episode, we discussed Ernest Hemingway's 1929 A Farewell to Arms. Please excuse the random digital noise in the last few minutes. Enjoy the podcast. My lady. So, Dave, your book was nothing that I what I expected.

SPEAKER_02 0:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 0:56

It wasn't what I expected at all. No, no, not at all. I mean, I was quite blown up.

SPEAKER_02 1:00

In a good way or a bad way.

SPEAKER_06 1:04

Well, I wasn't expecting it to be set in the year 3000, where dinosaurs have come back. But this time with lasers.

SPEAKER_03 1:11

Okay, so we've we've done that again, have we?

SPEAKER_06 1:14

Huh? Maybe it's the T Move, the T Mu book I got. But those are the sorry, those are the wrong notes. That's my Alvin and the Chipmunks podcast notes. Don't worry, I did read, I did read the real one. I just imagined maybe it was something different.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

But also not to be confused with Gregory Clark's book, Um A Farewell to Arms, A L M S. It's a brief economic history of the world.

SPEAKER_03 1:48

Seriously? I like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:50

Okay. Yeah. Arms for the poor.

SPEAKER_06 1:56

Oh, I didn't even see that one.

SPEAKER_01 1:58

Okay. Probably drier than this one.

SPEAKER_02 2:07

Yeah. Did you find it dry?

SPEAKER_03 2:12

What did you think? I found it awesome for the first half, and then I found found the end.

SPEAKER_02 2:21

I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 2:24

I'm just sure I really loved the way that he wrote it. Yeah. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_06 2:29

No, I'm saying because we read we read Hemingway at school. So I mean the only Hemingway I've read is Old Man in the Sea that we read with Mr. McGlashin or Mr. Wiggle or someone at school. And I remember that being kind of like kind of dry and a little bit bland.

SPEAKER_04 2:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 2:44

But but but that was kind of understandable because the entire story was about an old man in the boat in the middle of the sea. So you couldn't really do too much with it. And all I remember from that is the characters. Yeah, shin splints, Joe DiMaggio, and catching Plankton and a Hankeecher. That's all I took away. But then like you read all of Hemi Nue's like really cool quotes about writing, which are really inspiring and really great. Yes, I didn't know what to expect, Dave, but but I can definitely say that like in the aftermath where when you read more about him, like his style is what do they call it, minimalistic. It's very much boiled meat and boiled potatoes. It's nutritious and it's good for you and it'll make you big and strong, but you're not going to find any interesting textures or any interesting flavors. It is like really kind of meat and potatoes. And that's his thing, which is great. Because I mean, I think the first time almost that he mentioned color in the book, like it stood out so contrastingly when they're on their way to the horse races. And it's like you you really like, why is this drive to the horse races like exciting? It's like, oh, because he's actually describing colors, everything else has just been mud and gray and olive green.

SPEAKER_02 4:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 4:05

And at least at least psychologically and kind of with my flavor. But that's not necessarily a bad thing, that's just to start. And then when you get used to it, it kind of flows.

SPEAKER_02 4:14

Yeah. What do you think, Dev?

SPEAKER_01 4:17

Yes, me. I I love the book. The end was obviously you know very, very hectic and very tragic. Um, but I've read I've so I've I read um For Whom the Ball Tolls previously. So I've done no no no like his style of writing. I've read quite a bit of uh Cormac McCarthy, who was heavily inspired by by Heminwe, did uh the Border trilogy. Brilliant if you guys haven't read it. Um but Joe, very like you say, you know, minimalistic, like factual, short, punchy sentences, doesn't talk about any feelings or or emotions. That's all on the reader. He'll he'll explain like you know, you know, he's he's in the trenches and mortar bottom comes that explodes, it's blood, like that, you know. And it's it's it's it's it kind of kind of puts the onus on the reader to to kind of feel the the emotions, in which case it could be different for every single person reading that. But he's not saying this is how you know how you should feel, this is what um what emotions you should be going through, this is how the situation should make you feel. That's all all put on you, which I find quite quite interesting. A lot of a lot of books these days, you know, like that they talk a lot about like the emotion that the character's feeling or what they're going through, and that's all kind of like painted in the pretty picture for you, whereas this is it's very much just like stating facts that this is what's happened, this is how it's happened, you know what's uh what what what does that make you feel? What does that make you what does it evoke in you? Which I think is pretty cool. I think that the they call it the the iceberg uh method or whatever it was. Yeah, okay. Where he just shows you the tip of the eye.

SPEAKER_03 6:01

I mean everything's below this, and then yeah, you've got to do the rest. Okay. Yeah. Which is fine. I enjoyed the style. I said the yeah, it's quite cool. It lets everybody think their own. I think I said the first, I loved the first sort of half three-quarters because I just I was just enjoying the style and how it was. Basically, it's it's anybody can write. It's that he's just broken all the shackles and just gone. I'm gonna put this on paper how I want to, and yeah, I'm just gonna tell a story. Like he's sitting around the fire just talking, not quite stream of consciousness, but just talking and writing. Yeah, and just I think it's so lucky. It's just he's disregarded all the and it must have been huge. I mean, yeah, we nowadays we put up with so much poor journalism and online media. Everybody can yeah, you you yeah, we read it on a daily basis, everybody puts their own content up, and most of it's grammatically incorrect and yeah, uh punctuations all over the show. But in 1929, I'm certain it was the bar was high a lot more stringent. Yeah, we don't have it, we no longer have a bar here. Yeah. I think it must have been it must have been a shock to the system then.

SPEAKER_06 7:18

Yeah, but but but I wonder if it's also stylistically part of the time because you know I I've been boyhood dream I'm trying to complete is to collect all the Tintin comics. And so I've read a lot of Tintin over the last couple of years. And like when you read Tintin's dialogue, the dialogue is also very staccato. It's like very to to Devin's point. There's nothing more than just the bare fact, and it's very action-oriented. Like, come Snowy, let's look over here. Yeah, gosh, Snowy, they've done this. And if you look at like his dialogue is very staccato, you know, there's no kind of gentleness or nuancing or flowery language, it's da da da da da da da da. Even when he's with Catherine, you know, in kind of the the intimate scenes. It's very yeah, and that's cool, that's stylistic, but did remind me of Tintin vibes a little bit. And maybe that's the mid-twenties kind of or maybe it was something that was resonating somewhere in the creative ether with that kind of vibe.

SPEAKER_03 8:19

Cool. I wonder if Hemingway's ever been compared to who was um Tintin's creator? Her Hergé or Herger.

SPEAKER_06 8:30

Hergé's Adventures of Tintin. H-E-R-G-E. I can't pronounce it.

SPEAKER_03 8:36

But but like I think it was Hergé because I remember it from the cast.

SPEAKER_06 8:40

He was Belgian.

SPEAKER_03 8:43

Yeah. Something like that. Sorry, carry on? You were saying something.

SPEAKER_06 8:48

Yeah, but also like back to his kind of meat and potatoes and ditted style. He's got this, he's got that foreshadowing in the beginning of the book. And and the foreshadowing it was by by no means subtle at all, but all of a sudden, like the story goes and it's like, oh and it's like oh shit, it's about to get real. And I've I've got it here. Oh, okay. So it's when Catherine gives him the St. Christopher, and he's talking to the other guy who says, No, you should wear it, don't try and keep it safe. And then he just drops the sentence. So it's like you're 38 pages in, and it's it's an adventure, we're having a romp in Italy in World War One. Yeah, and then he just and then he just drops the sentence. After I was wounded, I never found him. So, like he there's no subtlety in the foreshadowing shadowing. It's like shit is gonna be happening in the next in the coming pages.

SPEAKER_03 9:40

Oh, you know he's gonna get wounded.

SPEAKER_06 9:42

Yeah, and but it was it was kind of a very powerful, even though it lacked all subtlety, it was just like, okay, it it did well.

SPEAKER_03 9:50

Yeah, I think all of the writing I thought was like that. I just I just yeah, I said it was it was freeing, and then you say, Well, you actually anybody can write, just put your ideas down and damn the talk. You don't have to be flowerly see how it comes up. Yeah, tell your story.

SPEAKER_05 10:09

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 10:14

You go no, I was I I was just gonna say, but he even in in like those that short prose, it still flows like so effortlessly, you know, like it's there's just something about it.

SPEAKER_06 10:28

Yeah, maybe because he's not trying, I suppose. Yeah. But but but then talking about not trying, and also apparently there were 39 alternate that he wrote. Yeah, or 47 alternate like last seven or something. You know, so maybe it looks effortless, but maybe it wasn't effortless, you know. Maybe it's great effort was taken to make it look effortless. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:53

Well, I wonder though, but it maybe it was effortless at first because basically it was his life story. Um, but you know, well, not his life story, sorry. It was based on his experiences in World War One.

SPEAKER_06 11:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:05

So it wasn't so it was sort of semi-autobiographical. And then maybe when he overthought it, when he got to the end to go, how do I finish this thing? Do I finish it the way mine finished? Uh, which was what basically unrequited love, or how did it work? She yeah, uh, he did fall in love with it.

SPEAKER_01 11:22

He went back to the states, yeah. And then he went back to the states, and then she um married an Italian officer. Oh, there we go.

SPEAKER_03 11:31

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 11:31

So yeah, that that was supposed to get back together afterwards, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:36

Yeah, yeah. So maybe he figured you maybe it was effortless up to a point, and then then he got to the shit. How do I finish this to make it to make it have a little bit of a bang?

SPEAKER_06 11:46

And yeah, no, no, that's been a few.

SPEAKER_03 11:51

Because I did feel it was sort of I don't know, it drag not dragging, that's that that's a horrible thing to say about one of the world's greatest novels. But you know, the last quarter, I'm like, yeah, come on. Yeah, we know the slushy snow on the way up the mountain. Just get on with it, tell us who dies. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 12:10

But but I think as well, when when he was writing that, uh I read somewhere when he was writing those labor scenes, his wife at that time, his then wife, Pauline Pfeiffer, was undergoing or was booked in for a Caesarean section when he when he was writing that childbirth scene. So, you know, okay. So, like other side of the coin here is is like that part of the book was like it was like very, very relatable. It was like the World War I romp has happened in the first three quarters. Now it's like okay, now we've got away and we're in Switzerland, and now it's like like first babies coming. And it's like, oh okay, yeah. So it was like that that became kind of very real. Um, this story rise, um, you know, like how he didn't, as the father, especially a man in the 20s, you know, where's your line? What do you do? What don't you do? So, you know, it's yeah, so maybe it's a reflection as well of of where he was at the time of writing it, and he had what's the first three quarters of the book based on his Italian experience, and then yeah, that part of the book based on what's happening now.

SPEAKER_02 13:16

Okay, yeah, cool. Yeah, very true.

SPEAKER_06 13:18

Yeah, and maybe if it isn't a love letter letter for that real nurse, he fell in love with, you know, like an unrequited love letter to what was her name, Agnes Stanfield. Maybe he also doesn't know how does he end the story. He's done the story, but how does he end it?

SPEAKER_03 13:34

He kills her. That's that's what you do with unrequited love. He killed him in your novel.

SPEAKER_06 13:40

Well, what he did do is he could kill her Italian fiance in the story before they met each other. You know, so remember Catherine had a Catherine was recovering from an Italian fiance who had just died. I think it was Italian who died in the war. So he kind of started off with like, there's your new boyfriend, he's gone on age 20. Onwards. But then you have to tell you.

SPEAKER_03 14:05

Let's see how this works out for you. Unlike them apples.

SPEAKER_06 14:17

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_03 14:18

I hope that was an empty beer.

SPEAKER_06 14:20

That was an empty beer. Empty beer.

SPEAKER_03 14:23

Yeah, so maybe it's taking the Churchill side of it. Yeah, it's like, well, I'm writing the story, so you will die.

SPEAKER_06 14:32

Very, very hardcore.

SPEAKER_03 14:35

Uh there was a little bit of humor though, despite the dryness, not huge amounts.

SPEAKER_06 14:42

No, there were. I I can't I can't think of any offhand, but I do remember having less than a lot of things.

SPEAKER_03 14:49

Well, when you say off when you say off when you say offhand, because I put this but to both of you when we started reading the book, I said, has anybody found the links yet to a previous episode? I found did anybody find the link to the priest to the priest in uh okay.

SPEAKER_06 15:07

I make up dead man. Okay, Telas?

SPEAKER_03 15:12

When the when the soldiers are all mocking the priest in the in the mess hall in the first few pages, yeah, yeah. Every night, priest, five against one. Every night, five against one. Basically.

SPEAKER_06 15:26

Oh, I missed I missed that.

SPEAKER_03 15:29

How are we talking? How are we talking about a masturbating priest within the first ten pages? Oh, I got basically most of the last movie. That is brilliant, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 15:43

That's great. Well done. Yeah, back there now. He spread his hand again again in the candlelight. Can't believe I missed that. You told me, I would have enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_03 15:57

No, no. I did also like the other one. There was um what was the uh oh, it was about the was it the the hotel manager when he greets him and he says, Did you get the tobacco I sent? He says, Yes, yes, did you get the card? He says, Yes, yes. And obviously then he says, We well, I never sent him any tobacco. It was just there, you know, he would like to have sent him some tobacco. Um but it was just the thing. And then later on, the wife of Catherine says to him, Why is the manager in our bathroom when they're having to flee the hotel? And he says, Oh no, he's just a good friend. I almost sent him some tobacco once. It's just uh yeah, not hilarious, but I just like the way he put it. Yeah, I almost sent him to the book.

SPEAKER_06 16:43

I had all the intentions to show my gratitude, but I thought about it and I felt good about thinking about it. Um, and then I moved on. Very, very good.

SPEAKER_03 16:53

Yeah, and I think I think I'm gonna use that a lot in life going forward. It's like, oh, who's that guy? I mean, and then you were chatting with your wife, who's that guy? I almost I almost bought him a car once. He's a good friend. I almost paid his kids schooling.

SPEAKER_05 17:11

Almost showed gratitude.

SPEAKER_03 17:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:16

It was so the um when they when they first start the retreat, um, and I I can't remember which of the uh the Italian drivers it was. Um he was saying, Tenante, you you know why I like uh retreats more than more than advances? It's like because we can drink Barbera on retreats. That's uh that that Italian red wine. A busy driving away in retreats, swinging back uh some red wine.

SPEAKER_03 17:46

He also says later on, he said they're cut off by the Germans. He says, uh, what about a what about a drink? If we're cut off by the Germans, we might as well have a drink. It's like fair enough.

SPEAKER_06 17:58

And go. There was no shortage of drinking. And it also that scene reminded me of Mr. Lyle's history classes as well. We kind of always refer to how the Italian army pioneered reverse lights and military vehicles. Was it like uh up until the Italians had military vehicles, they didn't have lights in the back. But when the Italians got military vehicles, they were reverse lights so they could come back.

SPEAKER_03 18:23

Yeah. Even in World War II, my one of my grandfather's yeah, one of my grandfather's jokes was about the Italian tanks having one forward gear and five reverse gears. Lovely. So that uh even in World War II, they didn't hold them in a high high esteem.

SPEAKER_06 18:43

But but I enjoyed that weapon buying. Yeah. Sorry, I just the weapon buying scene when he's with Catherine and he's leaving town and he's going back out, you know, just before the retreat happens. And he's looking for a pistol because he needs a pistol because he's an officer. And and the woman says, Yeah, don't you need a sword as well? I I've got some very good swords at a good price. And I mean, what an incredible era to live in where you where you are about to board a train to go to a war, and you can pop in in a weapon shop. It's like Grand Theft Auto, like you're popping in in a shop in the middle of town. It's like I want to buy a pistol, let me try them out. Very good. Would serve like a sword. There's a great sword, yeah to the front. Yeah, so no sword.

SPEAKER_03 19:29

People who bought this pistol pistol also bought also bought the sword, the bag pipes and the and the two-handed claymore.

SPEAKER_02 19:39

Yes, or Mr. Churchill had Jack Churchill.

SPEAKER_01 19:42

I was I was just about to say, yeah, won't you tell telling us about that guy? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:51

It is what does he say? An officer, an officer's not dressed unless he carries a sword. Yeah, which is you can also carry a gun, Jack, that he just went in with a broad sword.

SPEAKER_06 20:02

Bag pipes and a longbow.

SPEAKER_03 20:07

The last recorded death by longbow in battle.

SPEAKER_06 20:11

Yeah. Quite something to have. So and Dave, you were talking about the retreat before that your Yeah, you know, it's it's Italy's greatest ever um loss, the battle he describes. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 20:31

Yeah, total collapse uh collapse of the Italian army. I read somewhere it's about six hundred thousand uh people involved, but then other figures other figures say three hundred thousand captured or deserted. Oh wow. I saw another figure that said six hundred thousand. Okay, which is quite a lot of people to surrender.

SPEAKER_06 20:50

No, yeah, it's a small country.

SPEAKER_03 20:54

Yeah, but I mean either overwhelming forces against you or a bit of a lack of backbone when there's six hundred thousand of you.

SPEAKER_06 21:05

Yeah, you could probably take a I am a Spartacus, I am a Spartacus, I am a Spartacus, I am a Sparticus. You could do something, I imagine. Yeah, but Henry Hemingway wasn't really he wasn't at that retreat, was he? He was at other places when he but he really he got injured properly.

SPEAKER_03 21:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 21:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 21:21

Was he at the retreat?

SPEAKER_02 21:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 21:23

I believe so. So I think he I think he changed the names of the pla the on the the book that I've got, the uh volume that I've got mentions that the place names were changed.

SPEAKER_06 21:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 21:35

But I don't know if all of them were changed. So seemingly they were talking about that retreat.

unknown 21:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 21:42

No, no, they uh if if you don't remember the Caporetto from the book. No, I remember Caporetto from the book.

SPEAKER_06 21:49

Oh, then it's the same. No, no. Yeah, Caporetto is in the book. I was just looking at where he was.

SPEAKER_01 21:56

You know that's um that's uh the book was Not allowed to be published in Italy up until 1948 because it painted such a like a bad image of enforcers Mussolini. Interestingly, um we uh interviewed Mussolini when he first seized power in 1923 and apparently gave a scathing review in uh um I think he was still with the Toronto Times or whatever it was. Yeah, okay. Um and gave uh yeah scathing review of of Mussolini and apparently yeah uh Mussolini was not not impressed. Um so by no means was he are gonna allow his book to be published in the in the country with such a negative like connotation of the Italian armed forces.

SPEAKER_03 22:43

It's quite interesting. It wasn't really a laugh a minute of Mussolini, was he, Old Ducce? No, no, nothing.

SPEAKER_06 22:50

But like the the links the links are like so incredible because you've also got old uh Antoine de Saint Exuberry, who who Charles de Gaulle deeply, deeply disliked, and his works were also banned banned there, and also world well, he was World War II, not World War I. But but the overlaps with some of these authors in terms of their their adventures in life and being exposed to those wars and and plane crashes, crashing planes, yeah. Yeah, there was certainly no plane crash for this one, yeah. Yeah, but but in his life he had plane crashes. But in his life, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:32

True, yeah. He did have plane crashes, of course.

SPEAKER_06 23:34

He had like multiple two two and forty eight hours. He had two was the same. Yeah, directly trip. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I I did I did like the there was uh there was a account of the second one. So I I think because they were in Uganda, he was taking his wife somewhere to go see some falls that are impossible to reach any other way. And the plane hit uh the plane hit a telegraph wire, and the plane crashed, and I think they kind of got out all right, and story story happened, and then they got in another plane and it crashed, and then it caught fire. The pilot managed to shoot a hole in the window or break a window and drag his wife out, but him anyway was too big to fit through the hole in the window. And it says the account says he used his head to open the door.

SPEAKER_02 24:22

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 24:23

He had a fractured skull. Yeah, I mean, that's wild. You have a whole bunch of hard man, uh no, no, a hard, hard man. Definitely sounds like a sounds like a definite character. So I was I was curious as to why you would volunteer in the Red Cross to go drive ambulances in World War One.

SPEAKER_02 24:51

Sure.

SPEAKER_06 24:53

Did you guys look at that? Yeah, so what was his reason? Well, because he was I think he was too young to enlist, or his parents wouldn't sign the form because he was too young. So this was a way to do it.

SPEAKER_01 25:07

He also felt as artists, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 25:13

Poor eyesight as well. But when you look at, I think the number was there were 80,000 volunteer Red Cross ambulance drivers who went to the front in World War One, and and you know, with all due respect of the mission and the vision and everything else, you do get a sense of Dolce at decorum est, and this is World War One, and everyone's really excited, and everyone's really wound up, yeah, and everyone really wants to be there. But there were a lot of what they called that they called themselves the lost generation of American authors. So it wasn't just Hemingway. E. E. Cummings drove an ambulance in World War One in France. Gertrude Stein drove an ambulance in France in World War I. And and if if you go to Wikipedia and just look at notable people who drove drove ambulances in World War One or in France or Italy, you have to scroll.

SPEAKER_02 26:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 26:06

And so some of them are much better known than others, some I don't know. Walt Disney drove an ambulance in France after changing his uh after changing his passport to make his birth date 1900 instead of 1901, so he could meet the 17-year-old age limit to join the Red Cross to go to France. Because he because he was too young to join the army. So, I mean, that by itself is well. Yeah, and and then there's this really great, this really great, great quote that says that um it's by one of the authors. I I don't know what is what he wrote, but his name is Malcolm Cowley, and he says, one might almost say that the ambulance corps and the French military transport were college extension courses for a generation of writers. Because all of them were there getting their stuff. Which which is like really kind of and again, you see them all like everywhere was influenced by Gertrude Stein, E.E. Cummings was influenced by Gertrude Stein, and they might not have been mates, but they were all hanging around Paris at the same time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:16

Which is maybe you know, maybe it was more uh they couldn't get reporters gigs. I wonder if they couldn't get jobs as reporters, and maybe it wasn't so much Delceyette decorumist. Maybe they didn't want to fight, but they wanted to be there to observe and to write. And I don't know. I'm curious. I'd like to read up on all of them and find out where they're pacifists that they wanted to help.

SPEAKER_01 27:40

Umingway did try to sign up for the army.

SPEAKER_03 27:44

Yes, yeah, Hemingway's one aspect of it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 27:52

There we go. Because good Gertrude Sand and Hemingway were were mates, who's obviously older, but I mean they they used they didn't just spend a lot of a lot of time together in Paris.

SPEAKER_06 28:04

And do you know do you know who else Hemingway met and influenced more on the World War II side? And there was a quote by Hemingway in one of our last episodes, but this individual in his recounting of Hemingway quotes it directly from Hemingway told me this. And I found a photograph online today. There's a photograph from 1944 in London of Ernest Hemingway in his late 40s crossing the street with the 26-year-old or 27-year-old Roll Dahl, when Roll Dahl was in the military intelligence. And and by all accounts, I wasn't able to dig too deep. But that Dahl engineered the meeting so that he could meet Hemingway, who was a writer, in order to get, you know, kind of the golden touch of the experience and input through from the writer. Um I stand completely corrected, but those are what a couple websites I read said that was the point of the meeting. Or what was Dahl had, I think, written a few short stories or something, but he wanted time with this man. And he was in the he was in a position while he was doing that to get that time. I think I'm not sure which one of you, but you guys have said this before was that Hemingway's trick trick was, and this is now a direct quote from Roll Dahl in these TV interviews of Roll Dahl saying this, is about Hemingway telling him when you are going good, stop writing. That way it's easier to come back when you want to start again because you you know because you're keen and you know what you want to do. And and that's Roll Dahl saying this is the same with sex. Same with sex. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 29:44

I I find uh if it's going good, stop yeah, Roll Dahl would have stage managed that photograph as well, because he famously carried his camera with him everywhere. Okay, because I can't imagine that picture exists just by luck. You know, that yeah, because I don't know. I can't I suppose Hemingway would have been photographed a lot, true. Sorry. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 30:12

Yeah. I'll share the photograph with you because there's some comments saying people thought this photograph was fake because look how small Hemingway looks. And then they say, Well, well, Hemingway was six foot, granted, Roll Doll was six six. It's like, oh okay. He's allowed to look like a little gnome next to Roll Doll.

SPEAKER_03 30:32

Yeah, it's a very big man.

SPEAKER_01 30:37

And um he he also did a bit of um I wouldn't exactly call it espionage, but um did a bit of stuff with the the Secret Service apparently as well, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:49

I've got to actually read a book on that. He did a hell of a lot.

SPEAKER_06 30:53

Yeah, and then and the question is also which country's Secret Service? Because there's also stuff about other countries.

SPEAKER_01 30:59

That's it, Jacks. Uh apparently he was approached by the Soviet Union and he was finding a book.

SPEAKER_06 31:06

Yeah. And and then the last line I read on that was either either he just did it for for a lock and a joke, or he was just an effectual spark because he never actually did anything, but he was kind of like, because apparently we never know of these guys.

SPEAKER_01 31:22

Yeah, yeah, because uh they said that they eventually uh terminated the the the contract relationship or asset or whatever it is, um, yeah, because they weren't getting much information from him. Maybe it was just clean that this is one right to say that all despair.

SPEAKER_03 31:43

Yeah, because I'm just trying to remember here. So Soviet agent including his role as a Soviet agent, secret life and espionage and intelligence, including his role as a Soviet agent codenamed Argo.

SPEAKER_01 31:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 31:58

Fueled as art. Yeah, I have read it. I read it about Argo fuck yourself.

SPEAKER_06 32:04

I was just about to say Argo fuck yourself.

SPEAKER_03 32:09

Um tactical intelligence for the liberation of Paris. Um Nazi submarines. So yeah, an agent for the United States government, including hunting Nazi submarines with US supplied munitions in the Caribbean. I do remember that part of it. Yes, out in the Caribbean.

SPEAKER_01 32:29

Wow. Pillow, P-I-L-A-R. I read that.

SPEAKER_06 32:33

That should be in the ground right there. That's the Walbus. So maybe Heming and Old doing spice shit together. You know? That's that's what that's what my first thought was when you said there was a photo. It looks like Hemi Hemingway was doing was doing his things.

SPEAKER_05 32:52

Some sort of thing. Maybe they were sending the free world together.

SPEAKER_03 32:57

Possibly. Well, those ambulance drivers. Oh, he wasn't an ambulance driver, sorry. Rolldol was a pilot.

SPEAKER_06 33:03

He was a pilot. Yeah. He was a real soldier. Erase, erase, erase. Yeah. People coming after us. Uh yeah, they're definitely all coming after us.

SPEAKER_03 33:17

Yeah, I think I must. I'll actually reread that. Um I read it about eight years ago, but it'll be quite interesting to read it again now.

SPEAKER_01 33:25

Yeah, and and because and like it in his in his older age, as you were like deteriorating, like you know, people say you got you got very paranoid, and you know, but if he was so involved in all this espionage stuff, maybe they were after him, you know.

SPEAKER_03 33:39

It could be, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:41

He's a beast, uh.

SPEAKER_03 33:43

Yeah, especially if he was a double agent. That's him guarding his house and uh and uh where was he in Cuba with his double narrow traffic gun.

SPEAKER_06 33:54

There was also a biography written by um psychologist or neuroscientist who was tracking his head trauma throughout his life and kind of then tracking it towards suicide, and said that it's very possible that after the different concussions he had, after opening the door of the plane with his head onwards, that he was just suffering with that, you know, that brain trauma that American football players get, that starts a cognitive degeneration, starts depression, starts anxiety, and she kind of tracked his life through that. Um which was interesting. But also, um I'm not sure if it's a a scintillating read to kind of read uh after the fact prognosis. But yeah, he was also he was also famous with Scott Fitzgerald, sorry.

SPEAKER_05 34:40

Yes, yeah, he was very good friends with Scott Fitzgerald.

SPEAKER_06 34:44

Yeah, and that I think that fell out eventually, but they were good friends, and he's a friend of the podcast from uh serious case of Benjamin Button. He wrote that in Greg Katzpee. Uh yes. Did you hear the did you hear the story when uh old Fitzgerald was worried about the size of his manhood after his wife made the comment? So there's a story that he's old Fitzgerald is bound because his wife made some comment, and I was worried about the size of his manhood. So he he brought this up with Hemingway. So Hemingway says, Okay, well, let's go to the bathroom. Let's go to see what's see what we're dealing with here. So they retire to the men's room, and apparently the story goes, Fitzgerald presents his member to which old uh Hemingway examines it and says, it's perfectly normal, it's perfectly fine. And he says, Maybe what you should try do is when you go home, look at yourself naked and profile in the mirror, as opposed from a bird's eye view, because the bird's eye view distorts the proportions. And after you've looked at yourself and profiled in the mirror, then go then go to the museum and look at one of the classical sculptures of David or or any of those, and you you should be feeling okay with yourself. I must remember that one.

SPEAKER_02 36:03

Yes, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:05

Those two literary giants in the bathroom. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:13

That's why I keep a statue of David on the bedside table. There we go.

SPEAKER_06 36:21

Yeah. Laying down, so it's birds are you not for a while.

SPEAKER_03 36:31

What a mind isn't yeah, but it was um it was said it was uh it was good to read him again. I haven't I had what was the other one, uh Deb, you mentioned oh, for whom the bell tolls. I read that old man of the sea a few a few years ago.

SPEAKER_01 36:48

Yeah, really, really want to read Old Man in the Sea. I also want to read uh Death in the Afternoon on the uh bullfighting. Right, the bullfighting, that sounds interesting, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 36:57

Yeah. Because that's where you coined a phrase. That's coined from that. Um the moment of truth. The moment of truth is a phrase that was coined in that novel. When when you stab stab the bull, apparently. Oh, really? Yeah. Okay. So that'd be interesting to read.

SPEAKER_05 37:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:20

Definitely keen to read him some more. You know, his um his brother and his son also wrote a couple books. Oh, really?

SPEAKER_03 37:27

Did not know that.

SPEAKER_01 37:28

Yeah. Lester was his um his brother. He wrote his younger brother. He wrote uh a book on his um adventures during World War. But uh during his time in World War II, um called Sound of the Trumpets.

SPEAKER_02 37:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 37:48

Oh wow. Um, and then his son wrote two books on fly fishing.

SPEAKER_03 37:53

Also, valuable contributions. That's very valuable contribution to the are there any phrases in fly fishing today that relate directly to uh Hemingway? Did he create new phrases?

SPEAKER_01 38:09

Homework. I don't think they talk much during uh fly fishing.

SPEAKER_03 38:12

Something about five fingers, anything like that? Yeah, against the one against the one, one rod, five fingers against one rod. Although water magnifies it though, so you know from a bird's eye.

SPEAKER_06 38:29

That's why the old man went to seat correct.

SPEAKER_03 38:38

And salt water preserves it. And did you guys did you guys look at any of the movie annotations? I I looked pretty I didn't haven't seen I didn't watch any. Was it Carrie Ground? I didn't look at them properly.

SPEAKER_01 39:06

Um preluding the the events of of World War I. Okay, okay. I heard it, I heard about that. But yeah, I haven't seen it.

SPEAKER_06 39:14

Direct something about Richard Atzenbrough. Yes. Oh wow. Okay, okay. Because because there are a couple that I didn't realize were adaptations, um, and they'd kind of taken some artistic license to kind of retell the story, but to and what's bizarre is like by using metaphor, they made the story a whole lot more literal. So, do you know the that actor James Franco? He used to be big in the days, been quiet for a while. Yeah, yep. So he was in a movie 127 hours, where they retold the story metaphorically through a man rock climbing in the desert. And then at the climatic moment, it's a true story, yeah. And then in the climatic moment of this retelling of Ernest Hemingway, he cuts off his own arm and he says goodbye to it in the desert. Um, which is just kind of a really beautiful and poignant retelling. A farewell to arm.

SPEAKER_02 40:05

Oh, fuck sake.

SPEAKER_01 40:09

Oh I can see Dave and a hook there.

SPEAKER_03 40:16

Twat.

SPEAKER_01 40:22

It's a charm and it'd be like, no, but it's based on a true story.

SPEAKER_03 40:26

I've read the fucking book and I've watched the movie. Did you want to see the similarities? Like, where does he mention it?

SPEAKER_01 40:36

Yeah, I wasn't thinking it wasn't interesting. There's there's an episode in Family Guy Azwell, where Peter's Peter Griffin has just lost both his arms and the doctor prints up the book as well. Oh no.

SPEAKER_03 40:55

Uh but then the the other one starred Rock Hudson in 1957. Do you guys remember who Rock Hudson was?

SPEAKER_06 41:06

Well I know the name, but I can't attach it.

SPEAKER_03 41:09

No, he was just like a legend. Who all the girls went absolutely mad for. It turns out he uh played for the other team. So it was one of the big scandals of Hollywood in the 50s and 60s.

SPEAKER_05 41:25

Yeah, when they must have been back then.

SPEAKER_03 41:29

Good old Rock Hudson. Yeah, I enjoyed it. All in all, I enjoyed it. I thought it was good. I think he's got a bit of a future ahead of him, this chap.

SPEAKER_06 41:37

Yeah, yeah, no, it was a good reading experience. Thank you, Dave. To get us out of the catch us. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:45

It's good to read a book again. Well, I know we all read a lot, but I mean to actually sit down and and try and clap it in a in a short space of time.

SPEAKER_01 41:54

No, absolutely. I did enjoy that. Definitely keeps you motivated.

unknown 41:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:59

Yeah. But it wasn't a struggle. Yeah, I said it wasn't. It was just the last little quarter where you go, okay. I know this is dragging type thing, but otherwise I found it really Yeah, I found them easy to read.

SPEAKER_05 42:10

Mm-hmm. Which is and the history of the world.

SPEAKER_03 42:13

Which is good for the modern day concentration span.

SPEAKER_01 42:17

No, no, thank thanks for bringing me back to him anyway. Um, Dave. Oh, good. I think when I read For Whom the Bold For Whom the Bold Tolls was quite a while ago. So it was very good to come back to him.

SPEAKER_03 42:28

Yeah, fun. Good stuff. As I said, he's a decent old scribe. But yeah, I think as we could go down a thousand alleyways on his life, but it was a it was a lot of things.

SPEAKER_06 42:41

I think his biography, I think a biography of his would be incredibly interesting to read from stolen urinals and three six-toy cats and everything else. I think it would be quite quite a quite a romp through life.

SPEAKER_03 42:57

Yeah, he lived uh he lived a fuller life than most.

SPEAKER_00 43:02

She's very strange, very moody. Who knows? She might even prefer you to me.

SPEAKER_06 43:09

Well, that's all for this episode. Thanks for listening. Join us next time when we explore Scar Pop Phenomenon, Madness's 1982 compilation album, Complete Madness. 44 years and 18 more best of collections later. They're still going strong. Exciting times. Until next time.

SPEAKER_00 43:30

Get me another bottle of brandy, and I'll marry you.

SPEAKER_01 43:34

You mean that just a bottle of brandy you'd make an honest woman of me?