Radical Transparency: How Financial Advisors Can Build Team Trust and Reduce Turnover

Most firms invest heavily in client relationships while quietly neglecting the internal ones. The result is predictable: talented people leave, institutional knowledge walks out the door, and the cost rarely shows up on a single line item.

In this episode, Anne speaks with Zack Hubbard, Director of Financial Planning at Sargent Investment Group, an independent fee-only RIA based in Bethesda, Maryland. He has spent his career building financial planning teams from the ground up inside firms where the role didn't exist before he arrived.

Tune in as Zack shares what he has learned about trust from both sides of the manager-employee relationship, including why direct feedback compounds over time, what makes a young hire genuinely bought in, and why routing criticism through a third party quietly destroys what took months to build.

What You’ll Learn:

• Why financial advisory firms lose good employees they never meant to lose.
• The feedback structure that quietly predicts employee retention.
• What indirect feedback signals to the team members receiving it.
• How trust in a financial planning team moves from credentials to genuine loyalty.
• What a new hire's feedback quality reveals about their commitment.
• Why the honest hiring conversation most managers avoid is also the best retention tool.
• The cost of waiting for an annual review to say what needed saying months ago.

Ideas Worth Sharing:

• "If you're not building that relationship with your employees the same way you think about your relationship with your clients, you're not going to keep them." - Zack Hubbard
• "The more trust you have with your employees, the more they will stick around and weather some hard times." - Zack Hubbard
• "If you can build that level of trust where they have an unwavering belief that it's going to work out, you can weather a lot." - Zack Hubbard

About Zack Hubbard:

Zack Hubbard, CFP®, is the Director of Financial Planning at Sargent Investment Group, an independent fee-only RIA based in Bethesda, Maryland. Before joining SIG, he built the centralized planning practice at Greenspring Advisors and developed its training program for incoming financial planners. He holds the CERTIFIED FINANCIAL PLANNER® designation and is an active member of NAPFA.

Resources:

Sargent Investment Group

Connect with Zack:

LinkedIn: Zack Hubbard

Connect with Anne:

LinkedIn: Anne Claessen

Connect With Us

If you enjoyed this episode, follow The Rise and Fall of Trust wherever you get your podcasts. And if you’re thinking about launching a podcast that builds trust and drives results, that’s our jam. Schedule a free call at Cashflow Podcasting to learn more.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

If you're not building that relationship with your employees the same way you think about your relationship with your clients, you're not going to keep them and you're going to lose people and that turnover really, really hurts the firm.

SPEAKER_00 0:15

Welcome to the Rise and Fall of Trust by Cashflow Podcasting. Here we explore how trust is built, broken, and everything in between.

SPEAKER_01 0:32

I'm here today with Zach Hubbard, Director of Financial Planner at Sgt. Investment Group. Zach, welcome to the show. I'm excited to have you here. So tell me a little bit more. As director of financial planning, what exactly do you do? What does your day-to-day look like?

SPEAKER_02 0:49

Yeah. Yes, it's probably helpful if I give you a little background on the firm and then I can tell you what I do with within the firm itself. So Sargent Investment Group is an independent fee-only RA. We're based out of Bethesda, Maryland, so just north of DC, DC area firm. We have about one and a half billion in assets that we manage for about 400 families across the country. And the history of the firm is really interesting. So the firm started with the founder, Chris Sargent, who actually is still here. He's about to celebrate 60 years in the business, which is pretty crazy to think about. And you know, this firm itself started in 2019. They rolled out a Wells Fargo, but the firm Sergeant Investment Group has the idea, it's kind of been around for 60 plus years. And so as part of that, there's a lot of built-up trust and really, really deep relationships that we have with clients, which are really cool. And so my role in that is I joined Sergeant last year in February of last year from another larger RAA where I was doing a similar role in director of financial planning. My role here at Sargent is really to take that old legacy relationship that we have with those clients and take it to the next level through financial planning. So getting a deeper understanding of not just the existing relationship, but also building that foundational relationship with the next generation of the family and keeping those things intact. We have a really we've been blessed to work with a lot of really deep and long, long-standing relationships. And those little relationships are, of course, you know, folks age and they age out. And we've been grateful to work with the children of those families as well. And so keeping that ethos of multi-generational, long-standing relationships and building that into the planning process is really cool and interesting. And I kind of get to build it from the ground up, which is cool and exciting for me. You know, I get to kind of do what we think is is best and build it at a foundational level. And so my responsibilities are twofold. I get to do the planning for the clients and kind of develop that that offering, if you will, that service. And then also build a team that then will then execute as we continue to grow and scale as a firm.

SPEAKER_01 2:55

Amazing. And I mean, really important, I can imagine, for a firm that to keep the families, right? Because like like you said, there is a long relationship, there is so much trust. So then keeping that, it's it's so important. It would be such a waste kind of to have people leave then, you know, like all of that work that went into that and like that beautiful client relationship when you have it. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. You already mentioned trust, that you know, client trust super important and client relationships and that there has there has been a lot of trust within the firm with clients because the firm has been around for 60 years. So that's that's huge, obviously. How else is trust important for you?

SPEAKER_02 3:39

Yeah. So so as I mentioned, you know, part of my role is building out a team underneath me, right, to to kind of scale and develop this further. You know, it's not it's not easy to do plans by yourself for a very long period of time. So, you know, the the idea of trust doesn't just apply to relationships that we have with clients, but also the relationship relationships that we have with employees, right? The the best part of a wealth management firm, in my opinion, is the people, right? And then what keeps those relationships for long periods of time is keeping your people for long periods of time. And the only way to keep people around and to get them in young and stay for a long time, you know, there's a bunch of stats out there, young people are leaving jobs more frequently than and probably ever in history. And you know, I'm not necessarily immune from that. I've had multiple roles throughout the industry, you know, I bounce around, certainly bounced around. But if the more trust you have with your employees, the more that they will stick around and stick through and weather some hard times and and maybe weather some challenges that if you're not keeping your promises, if you're not building that relationship with your employees the same way you think about your relationship with your clients, you're not going to keep them and you're gonna lose people and that turnover really, really hurts a firm.

SPEAKER_01 4:51

Yeah, I think you'll have a great point because it's like you said, like we talk about client relationships all the time, every day. But those relationships with our team members and like within the firm, I think you have a great point. I think it's really, honestly, really expensive for a firm if someone is leaving and they're really good and they have those client relationships, like our clients staying, our clients going with, and then you know, hiring, onboarding someone new, I mean it's it has a huge impact, especially I I can imagine on on some smaller firms, I can I can imagine it will have a huge, huge impact. So I think you have a really good point about the importance. So, in that light of you know, trust with with team members, with employees, with colleagues, can you share a success story? Like we call it the rising trust story. So where trust was really important, where it went well, and you know what maybe what we can learn from that.

SPEAKER_02 5:48

Yeah. Yeah, I think one of my favorite success stories with an employee that works on my team specifically is from my previous firm. But he, you know, as I was developing this, the financial planning team in that firm, it was brand new, right? That the idea, the concept didn't exist within that firm before I took over and started building it out. And I know from personal experience, it's incredibly hard to be the first at anything, right? And be specifically the first in a role at a firm is really, really challenging because there's no, there's no example, right? There's no indication of what success looks like. There's no, it's it's kind of blind trust that it's almost a little bit of faith, right? That that this is gonna work out and and who knows, right? Who knows if it's actually gonna work out because you're brand new at it? We don't even know, like uh you know, you don't even know if the firm's gonna keep it around as such a new role. So the first hire was young man straight out of college, still there. Shout out Max. He's a great guy, one of my still one of my favorite people. But he you know was was pretty like six months out of college, you know, he did a previous job, but really took a pretty much a leaf of leap of faith on me and on the firm to do kind of jump into this financial planner role and get the training and take the tests and get the licenses and everything. And you know, certainly as I was new as from a manager perspective, the role was brand new. We really had no, again, no idea, no, no real defined path for what it was going to be. It was kind of, hey, we're gonna make this what makes sense and we'll kind of adjust as we go. What we were able to do was build a consistent process for feedback. So I'm a I'm a big fan of what I what the the two by two feedback model. So you sit with somebody, you say, hey, what did we do well in this conversation, or what are we doing well right now? And what's one thing that you did well, and and what's one thing that I need to improve upon, and what's one thing that you can improve upon? And that that feedback loop is constant. We would meet weekly and on base or after every every meeting that we sat on together to do those feedback. And over time, when you do that sort of bite-sized feedback, you get to stack wins, you get to see progress a lot easier because it's a lot easier to manage one piece of construction feedback versus 10, right? We have a tendency to kind of just feedback dump on people in reality. We we can't, we're not gonna retain that. You might remember the first thing, but that's it. You're not gonna remember the other seven. So breaking it down to those bite-sized pieces and really allowing him to have kind of some freedom and flexibility to say, hey, this is working really well, this isn't, and then showing up as a manager, right? Showing up to say, okay, I understand, I hear you, this isn't working, let's adjust. And showing that, you know, basically proving that, hey, we're gonna do the work, we're gonna make the adjustments, we're gonna do the things that that you're you're saying. We're all learning together, so we're gonna do this together, being vulnerable, trying to kind of lead alongside rather than lead to follow. And we were able to actually develop a true path, and and he's on that process, you know, he's an advisor now at that firm, which is kind of the design step, next step. So he's a big time success story. I'm super proud of him, super proud of the the relationship that we had and kind of the process that we built. And it's exciting when you when you do that, right? It's it's nerve-wracking all the way through, but it's exciting to kind of be out on the other side. And then now other future planners at that firm have the example of Max, right? And they can see that, hey, this does actually work. We can, we understand, we kind of see, see what's at the end of the tunnel here.

SPEAKER_01 9:19

Yeah, exactly. No, absolutely. So I'm wondering when you were hiring Max, because he was like, like you said, fresh out of college, right? Six months into another job. So he probably didn't have a whole lot of work experience. What were some of the things that you were kind of like looking for, or some of like the signs, kind of the green flags? What green flags did Max have that you were like, I think this guy is the guy to try this out with and to like help me shape this?

SPEAKER_02 9:47

Yeah, I you know, and when you're looking for a role like that that's so new, you're really just looking for somebody that's not scared away, right? I mean, yeah, I think from an interview standpoint, from a manager, future manager standpoint, you have to be pretty honest about what it is, right? And and what the what the role is. You know, I think as a as an industry, we kind of have a tendency to sell sell people a bill of goods, if you will, when we're hiring them. You know, it's like, hey, look at all this money you can make when you come into this industry. If you just do these things and then you get into it, and either you have to go sell a bunch of stuff, or you sit in the same role for 10 years when they promise you three and you get stuck and people leave, and we we have this massive kind of brain drain from the the industry still, which is a problem. But if you're opening eyes up front to say, look, this is brand new. We honestly we we kind of have a thought around what this looks like, but we really have no idea. And what we were looking for was somebody that's gonna want to build alongside of us, right? Be a participant in building the role, growing it, developing that that process, being flexible, you know, in terms of what, because there's certainly changes that will come. As we're getting feedback, we need to be malleable and change and flexible. And that's really what we were looking for, somebody that's willing to kind of get in the ring and do the work with us and get their hands dirty. And it wasn't looking for kind of that defined career path at that point. Of course, everybody wants a path, everybody wants to see a path moving forward. You know, one of the biggest reasons that people leave any job is because they don't see a path forward for themselves. But you have when you're hiring for a brand new role, there's not a clearly defined path. So you need somebody that's willing to kind of define it with you and build alongside you, which is exactly the skill set that he had.

SPEAKER_01 11:33

Amazing. Yeah. So what I'm what I'm hearing that probably a massive, massive trust builder was kind of like you being open about this, right? Like, listen, upfront, we don't know exactly what it's gonna look like, but we want to figure it out with you. And like, would you be open to that instead of you know, overselling or overpromising? So better to be completely honest and transparent about that. I can imagine that from the candidate's perspective that he he probably really appreciated that. And I think, you know, seeing that as a trust builder, like, oh, this is you know, this is someone who's being really honest with me, I think that really built trust for sure. Can you tell me a little bit more of like how was the process like in terms of in terms of trust, right? What were there was there anything that Max did that really kind of like enhanced that trust, that really increased the level of trust, and kind of like what what worked in that from my standpoint, there were a couple things.

SPEAKER_02 12:38

One is you know came in right away and was constantly asking questions, constantly learning, constantly doing the work that was assigned, right? And and doing it well. You know, that's a that that earned trust is important, right? Just the the consistency of showing up, doing the work, putting in the effort, showing that you're you're making progress, developing, and a willingness to to both get and give feedback, right? I think from my standpoint, one of the most important things as a leader and as a manager is to build trust is not just giving feedback, but also getting feedback, right? Soliciting feedback from the employees. And not every employee is as comfortable doing that face to face. I'm a big believer in radical transparency. And if you have something that I'm that you need me to change or that you think I'm not doing well, I want to know about it directly. Like I don't want to hear from somebody else. I want to know from you directly. And we were able to build that relationship and build that direct feedback loop through those kind of check-in two by two type meetings where we just very easily say, hey, here's what you here's what I think you're doing really well, here's what I think you need to improve, and then getting the same thing back, right? Here's he he would say to me, Hey, here's what you're doing well, here's what I think we can work on. And that that relationship, that consistent sort of basically level uh relationship, you know, not the the typical kind of manager employee relationship where I'm above you, you need to listen to what I say, you know, don't push back. It's more of a we're doing this together, right? And yeah, my my title is different than yours, but in reality, we're in a similar position. We're both just trying to figure this thing out. And that that honesty and that consistency of feedback, and I I think it really goes towards building that trust and building that foundation. And then, you know, it also not to go too deep down inside, but I kind of think about trust in three levels, right? There's there's implicit trust, which is trust me, I'm a doctor, kind of right, like I have a CFP, you know, I have the education, I have the merits. There's that earned trust where you just you get more trust by just showing up and doing what you said you were gonna do over time. And then I think that that last level, that third layer, is almost faith, right? Not in the religious sense, but just faith that you're kind of this wavering belief that this person is is gonna be there for you, gonna act in your best interest. And when you're doing something like building a brand new team and a brand new operation at a firm or really building anything new, you have to get to that point of faith. And I think we were able to get there, the faith that, like, hey, this is this is gonna work out. And if you can do that, if you can build that level of trust that they have an unwavering belief that it's gonna work out, you can weather a lot. You can go through some serious downs, you can go through rocky points, but everybody stays focused on the ultimate mission.

SPEAKER_01 15:23

Yeah, I think you have a really good point on the levels of trust, because I think you know, the lowest level, if it if it's just your credentials, then I think that trust can go away really quickly, right? If you if you don't have anything else except for you know certain credentials and you do something that just is unhinged and doesn't make sense, then people will immediately not trust you. But the higher the level of trust, like if someone has the that like inherent faith in you because that trust is built over time and like you said consistency as well, right? Because what I heard you say before is like one feedback session and one time that feedback loop would have probably been helpful, but would not have had the effect that it had now because you kept repeating it and it was step by step. It was not one huge session, but just every time, okay, here is another feedback loop, here's another feedback loop. And you know, both ways, like you said, I think the consistency in that, I can completely imagine that that really built over time, like more and more and more towards that highest level. I think that's absolutely a really good point. So then I'm also really curious, Zach, what is the opposite story? What do you have a story of falling trust where, you know, maybe mistakes were made, maybe something happened which completely diminished the trust and made it made it crumble?

SPEAKER_02 16:46

Yeah, I think it it's that story is more from not that I'm faultless, but I think it's more for me as an employee versus me as the as the manager. I think I've learned I learned a lot from some of those early, you know, broken trust examples that make me really value that transparency and consistency. I think the one thing, the biggest thing that is a consistent trust breaker, and it's happened multiple times over throughout a career, is the indirectness of feedback, right? If if you get feedback from a third party rather than the person that's giving the feedback to me, that's an ultimate trust breaker, because it's like, hey, you you don't trust me enough that to give me direct, whether it's constructive or or even positive feedback, but you don't trust me enough to give that to me directly. You need to tell somebody else about it because either you don't feel comfortable talking to me about it, which is that might be on me, maybe I haven't made you feel comfortable, or you're just you're you're kind of the you're not the type of person that that is gonna be able to give that direct feedback. And to me, that's a hard person to trust, right? It if you're not gonna be, if you're not able to be open and 100% honest and transparent with somebody, to me that's uh that's the lack of trustworthiness. I think opening openness and honesty is is so important. And so if I've had multiple situations where, you know, in previous roles where you kind of work in an advisor support role, but your manager is somebody else, you know, kind of an operations type director or kind of head of client service, where the advisor that I was working with would go give feedback to that person, that that manager, and then I would get that feedback in like an annual review. It's like, well, here's some things that you need to work on. It's like, well, that was like three months ago, first of all. Second of all, like, so how am I gonna how am I going to improve on something if I don't know about it for three months? But also, why am I not getting this directly from the person that I'm working with on a daily basis? Right, and why are we not getting this this feedback loop directly versus having to wait for a quarterly review or an annual review? You know, it puts it puts me in a tough position because I'm I'm trying to get better, right? I'm trying to build a career and and you know get advanced throughout my career. I'm not getting the feedback in real time. How am I supposed to get any better? But also, you know, it makes that relationship really strange because now there's an intermediary between the two people, right? Everybody's played telephone, things get lost in translation, things get downplayed, things get upplayed, you know, and and when you have somebody that's that's going essentially kind of above your head for for feedback or for you know that that advice, that that creates a strain in the relationship that makes it really untenable. So I'm yeah, I'm a big fan of that direct feedback loop and and making sure that we're consistently talking over time and not letting things sit and fester. Uh, because I think that's when that's when relationships and that's when employment and that's when everything else goes bad.

SPEAKER_01 19:39

Yeah. I mean, I think in in an annual report, like there shouldn't be any surprises at that point, right? Like there shouldn't be any surprises. No, but I think you have a really good point because I think we all just hate the feeling that there's like that people are talking about you behind your back, right? And I feel like this is exactly the example. Like people are talking about you behind your back. And it just makes us feel extremely uncomfortable. And I think it's also it makes this this topic, but also this person a lot less approachable. Because I could I could see if someone would come to me and say, like, hey, I think this is an issue, I think this is something you would want to work on, I would probably feel comfortable enough to ask questions about that and like more information, clarifying questions, uh, can you help me with stuff? You know, things like that. If someone goes above that, you know, management layer, you don't have that conversation really. It's more like receiving an announcement instead of having an active conversation.

SPEAKER_02 20:42

You know, think about hiring somebody straight out of college that's really had no real-world job experience, you know, maybe they've had a couple of internships. But if I, as their manager or as their fellow employee, their colleague, whatever, am not and giving feedback to somebody else that then is relayed to them, they're getting the example that, oh, this is just how we handle feedback in this organization. So I need to, I can't give feedback to this person directly. I need to go to whoever their manager is or wherever their sort of intermediary person is. And then you create that work culture where nobody's actually being honest with anybody and they're they're going to this third party to complain, essentially complain, right? That's why HR's office often becomes the therapist's office because they just that's where you go to give feedback, and then HR is left to deal with it. If organizations in general, but especially advisory firms, just did more direct feedback, you would have happier people, you'd have better relationships, and you probably keep people a lot longer just because there's there's a lot more openness and honesty. And honestly, it feels so much better to work in a place where you know I can go down the hall and talk to this person. Honestly, they'll receive it. They might not agree with it, but they'll receive it and we can we can work it out.

SPEAKER_01 21:54

Yeah, and you would also know what's what other people are thinking, right? What's actually going on. At work because I think it's almost like there is a lot of politics in the office at that point where people are not actually directly speaking to each other. So then everyone is wondering like, how am I actually doing here? You know, am I, I feel like I'm doing okay, but maybe people are complaining about me. Who knows? I mean, horrible, absolutely horrible. Yeah. And I think, you know, from the other story that you told us, you know, the success story, that openness, transparency, regular feedback, and it's just it sounds like it was a lot of a lot more like two-way conversations, right? Where you received feedback, you gave feedback, and that was just the norm. I can absolutely see that that is a way better solution to building trust with employees, or like the only solution to building trust with employees, probably compared to the falling trust, sorry, that you share with us.

SPEAKER_02 22:55

Yeah, exactly. It's it's the same thing, leading by example, right? If not everybody's used to getting direct feedback, you know, if you're especially if you're coming out of school, your feedback is grade, right? You're not sitting down with your professor and going one-to-one saying, Hey, here, what can I do better? What can you do better? Your feedback is is your grade on your assessment. So that that directness is not necessarily comfortable. It's not something that we're used to as a society, right? We it's not not the way we do things. So going first, being the one that asks for feedback first rather than gives it, gives that additional example, kind of disarms a little bit to say, well, like you want me to give you feedback? I don't, I don't know anything, but yeah, I can I can give you some. And then you know, being receptive to it, being understanding, kind of not just not just saying doing it to check the box, but truly taking it into account. That example that you can set just by being being the one that actually gets the feedback first is uh is super important and and really helps again just to build that trust. The other part of the other side of that is you have to execute on it. You can't just you know you're just collecting feedback and not doing anything, not making any changes, then it's it's like talking to a brick wall, right? And nobody's gonna know they're not gonna give you feedback anymore because you're just not taking it into account. So you have to also show that you're actually doing it, that you're actually making the changes. If they're valid, right? It's certainly there's always feedback that's not valid, but you know, it the valid feedback you have to, you have to really show that you're taking it into account and doing it. And if you can do that as a leader, people are gonna work with you, people are gonna want to work with you, and they're gonna want to work alongside you. And that's that's a really good spot to be in.

SPEAKER_01 24:31

Yeah, I mean, I think leading with vulnerability, like you already mentioned, I think, and that also comes with take, like actually taking the feedback, not just being like, okay, thank you, and then not doing anything with it. And there will be a part of it that might not be valid, but you cannot just, you know, for weeks and months say, oh, everything I received is invalid feedback. Like, no, probably not. That's not how it works. Yeah, you're gonna have to take some steps, like because otherwise you're still not vulnerable. Because then, yes, people are talking to you, but true vulnerability is then also actually receiving it, actually thinking about it, and then actually also implementing part of it. Yeah, I think that's really good advice. And I think it works for everyone with colleagues, right? It's not only when you're the manager of someone, but I think with with every colleague at all levels of the company, I think this is just extremely helpful. And I had some really good takeaways from you, especially like the openness, but also being like proactive in sharing information, like not overpromising, which sounds really obvious, but I think it's sometimes difficult to be that level of honest and open about stuff. But you'll the the right people want will want to help you with that and work alongside you to figure stuff out. I think that's uh that's a big takeaway that I got from your stories.

SPEAKER_02 25:57

Yeah. Yeah, it's also it's a really good test for longevity of an employee, right? I mean, ultimately you can tell pretty quickly if somebody's gonna stick around for a long time, if they have actual good feedback to give you. If you know, if it's just, oh no, everything's fine, you know, everything's great, you know, there's there's nothing really to change, that's that's probably a good indicator that they're either not comfortable with you or not fully invested in what you're doing, right? It's it's kind of not, they're not, they're not working alongside you to build this thing. It's like, hey, this is this is kind of my job, which is it's fine. Like some people are like that, but you know, when you're building a team and when you're building something super important, and when you're working with the types of clients that that most financial advisors work with, you need somebody that's fully bought in. And a good test of that is just are they actually looking at things with a critical mindset and looking to improve the way you're doing things? Are they are they finding opportunities to add value or increase value? Are they looking for ways to make processes more efficient or to make the team better or to do something a little bit differently? Yeah, those are the people that are truly, truly bought in. And so when you're doing that consistent constant feedback, you can kind of get a you can get a sense pretty quickly of whether this person is bought in. And as a as a manager, you don't just immediately fire that person if they're not, you work to get them more bought in, right? And I think that's another important conversation. But it's a it's a really good indicator both ways of of how bought into both the relationship and to the firm a person is.

SPEAKER_01 27:24

Absolutely. Like for employee retention, I can it's it's a really good indicator for sure. Zach, thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and experience with us today on the podcast. This was really great. I had some really great takeaways from your stories. Where can people find you if they want to connect with you online and learn more about what you do?

SPEAKER_02 27:44

Yeah, you can connect with me on LinkedIn, which is Zach Hubbard, CFP on LinkedIn. And Sargent Investment Group.com is our website. You can find us there. We have a ton of content and things there. But LinkedIn, if you want to connect with me directly, shoot me uh a message on LinkedIn and then we can coordinate the time to talk. I'm I'm I love talking to people both in the business and and outside of the business. So reach out to me. Feel free to uh connect and look forward to chatting with folks.

SPEAKER_01 28:08

Amazing. Well, make sure to add the links to both the website of Sargent Investment Group and also if you're LinkedIn to in the show notes. So if you're listening, you can just go to show notes, click the links there, and connect with Zach. Thank you again for coming on the show today, Zach. And thank you to our listeners for listening.

SPEAKER_02 28:25

Thanks, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:28

Want to build trust at scale? Go to cashflowpodcasting.com and launch your own podcast.