The Breadwinner’s Partner: Empowering Women Through Financial Trust with Bridget Grimes

What does it cost to trust someone who publicly champions your success but privately limits it?

In this episode, Anne Claessen speaks with Bridget Grimes, CFP and president of WealthChoice, a fee-only financial planning firm serving high-earning breadwinner women. After a decade in an industry that repeatedly asked her to shrink, Bridget’s perspective on trust is shaped by both the damage that experience caused and what she chose to construct afterward.

Listen in as she shares what she learned about trust from both sides of professional betrayal. You’ll learn why stated values without supporting structures are not values at all, what intentional succession planning actually requires, and how the wrong firm became the reason she built the right one.

What You’ll Learn:

• Why fiduciary responsibility and personal trust are not the same thing.
• The real cost of the gender pay gap in financial planning and advisory firms.
• How fee-only RIAs can build stronger advisor partnerships through clear expectations.
• What intentional succession planning looks like inside a family-owned firm.
• How structured communication helps Gen Z advisors transition into financial services.
• What women in finance need from firm leadership beyond stated support.

Ideas Worth Sharing:

• "I think a client's only going to take the steps that you suggest if they really believe that you are trustworthy." - Bridget Grimes
• "Whoever your tribe is, you have to have this group of people." - Bridget Grimes
• "If you are surrounded by folks you trust, who you know are interested in sharing and helping each other succeed, then far more women will succeed in this industry." - Bridget Grimes

About Bridget Grimes:

Bridget Venus Grimes is a CFP Board Ambassador and founder of WealthChoice, a fee-only financial planning firm built around the financial lives of breadwinner women. She co-founded Equita Financial Network, a community and RIA platform designed to keep women-led advisory firms in the industry on their own terms. Her work as an advisor, speaker, and mentor is shaped by her own experience navigating financial discrimination and rebuilding professional trust from the ground up.

Resources:

• WealthChoice
• Equita Financial Network

Connect with Bridget:

LinkedIn: Bridget Venus Grimes, CFP®

Connect with Anne:

LinkedIn: Anne Claessen

Connect With Us

If you enjoyed this episode, follow The Rise and Fall of Trust wherever you get your podcasts. And if you’re thinking about launching a podcast that builds trust and drives results, that’s our jam. Schedule a free call at Cashflow Podcasting to learn more.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

And there was one person out of honestly probably hundreds of calls that I made to peers. Like, what do I do? And one person said to me, Bridget, what you are looking for, you're not going to find. You have to build it yourself.

SPEAKER_01 0:20

Welcome to the Rise and Fall of Trust by Cashflow Podcasting. Here we explore how trust is built, broken and everything in between.

SPEAKER_02 0:37

Hello, I'm here today with Bridget Grimes. She is the president at Wealth Choice. Bridget, welcome to the show. I'm super excited to have you on. Thank you so much. I'm happy to be here. Yeah. So tell me a little bit more about Wealth Choice. And, you know, what do you guys do? What do you do as a president? Tell me, tell me a little bit more of background info, please. Sure.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

So Wealth Choice is a family financial planning firm. We serve what we call breadwinner women. So our clients are kind of high-powered women. They have a lot on their plates, right? They generate the money for their families. They may or may not have a partner or family. But like a lot of other women, not only do they have a ton of responsibility with bringing in the revenue and the income for their families, but they're have all that other family stuff as well. So, you know, whether it's kids, aging parents, you name it, they've got to do it. And so what happens is their life kind of gets pushed to the side. So our job is to help them live the life they want. So that's our firm. I launched it nine and a half years ago. We are our client base is virtual. And I have a partner who's located in Manhattan. I'm on the West Coast. And our team is entirely virtual as well. So that's our that's wealth choice.

SPEAKER_02 1:49

Amazing. So wherever you are in a country, you can contact Wealth Choice and you can you like Bridget can help you. Amazing. Sounds good. So for you and for Wealth Choice, like how important is trust?

SPEAKER_00 2:04

I think trust is everything, especially in our world. I'm a CFP professional, right? I'm a fiduciary. You know, you've got clients who let us guide them through their lives, invest their hard-earned money. There is nothing more important than trust. And interestingly enough, we do a client survey every other year. And I think the last question on the survey is so why is it that you came to Wealth Choice and why do you stay? And overwhelmingly, clients respond with trust. And I think that's really interesting because it makes you it really as a planner, it just gives you this tremendous feeling that, hey, I've done a good job of making sure my people understand that they're a priority.

SPEAKER_02 2:53

Yeah, exactly. And I can totally imagine that when you're really busy, right, as a female bratwinner, like you said, you you're juggling all these different things. It's work, it's family, it's you know, everything at once, right? And then I can totally imagine that it's so important to have someone manage your money who you really, really trust. Like you don't, you don't have to micromanage them. It's the only way.

SPEAKER_00 3:17

Yeah, it is the only way. And it's not just about money management. I mean, we're a financial planning forward firm. I feel like the investment management is almost a commodity at this point in our industry. But what is truly valuable to our clients is understanding what their financial intentions are, what their vision is for their life, and helping them make that happen. And that's, you know, that's us diving in all the time with folks like, here's where you are, maybe we made a bad decision, let's talk about this. You know, it's it's really being a partner for a client. And you're only gonna, I think a client's only going to take the steps that you suggest if they really believe that you are trustworthy, right? Like you know what you're doing, that they they that it's coming from a place of expertise and caring. And only then will do you have them buy in, right? Because at the end of the day, this is their life and their money. We're just here as guides and to offer observations and help them make better choices, but this is their choice, right? So I think that when you establish trust with a client, which I value more than anything else with my clients, I think then you as a uh as a planner, that's as good as it gets, right? I mean, we're all in this line of work to help people live a better life. And that to me, that that just says volumes, okay. We're doing, we're doing the work that we had hoped, and our clients are receiving it the way we would like.

SPEAKER_02 4:45

Exactly. They're meeting their goals as well because they trust you.

SPEAKER_00 4:49

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 4:49

Absolutely. So, Bridget, what what success story do you want to share with us today? What is your story of rising trust?

SPEAKER_00 4:57

Yeah. So since we're talking about trust, I would tell you, I have a bunch, but the one that stands out to me the most is that a little more than two years ago, I brought my daughter into my practice. And she had been in tech in a financial role for a number of years, right out of college, went to tech. We had talked for some time about my business and this industry and how great it is for women. And, you know, she, you know, she she had a great job. She's making really good money, but she was unfulfilled because there wasn't this person, this people part, it was really numbers. So she became an intern. I said, look, you know what, if you want to see what this is all about, I'd like you to intern, like any other person would, whether you're my kid or not. And for six months, you know, uh, she carved time out, working full time, but she carved time out to intern at my firm to sit in on client meetings to really see if this was something she was interested in. And then I said, look, if you think that this is something you're interested in, I want you to take all the CFP coursework on your dime, on your time. Show me that you're truly committed about making a pivot into this industry. And she did. And, you know, we finally reached uh an agreement. She said, this is what I'd like to do. And so I brought her in two years ago, January 2024. And my thought was, I'm in my early 60s. I don't plan to retire. God willing, I'll do this as long as I can. I love this work, but there's only so many hours in a day and so much capacity. And I truly could not bring on any more clients. I was like, you know what, you you have to wait. I just don't have the ability to do the deep work I want to do on my own anymore. So I brought Marnie in and I said, look, you know, if this works out the way we both hope, you will be a terrific successor and a great partner. And I don't know my plan. I still don't know, but I I know that you could be a really great equal partner and we can take this business wherever you want. Now, that is a really big deal to bring not only a kid in, but to bring in, you know, your own child, but to bring in any partner. I have heard, and I'm sure you have many terrible stories about bringing a partner in, and it makes you really pause. But this was a case where we kind of we did a lot of due diligence, we took a lot of steps to try this out, and then we committed to each other. And I have to tell you, it has so exceeded my expectations. So where we are with Marnie, we are actually now in conversations with a firm on equity, right? So we're starting to give equity as of this year incrementally. There's a great plan. But this was really putting trust in my daughter that this was something she truly wanted to do. Because you know, anytime you bring an employee in, there's a tremendous amount of time and effort and money that goes into training these people. And I brought somebody in who was essentially a career changer, right? She comes from tech. While she's really good at finance, this is a different language. So, you know, she she had to really come in and show me that this was something she was really interested in. She was good at, the clients liked her. We worked really, really hard. Like, what's your work ethic? And it was also a year when I first brought her in. I own a second company. It's a platform, it's an SEC registered RIA that's a platform for women-led firms around the country. And that's a whole story. It's a huge passion play of mine. And I own that with a partner. And my partner's husband became very, very sick right after I hired my daughter. And she had to step away from that company. And so now I'm running two companies full-time, and it was a lot of work. And I said to my daughter, You are not only starting this new job with me, but you are gonna learn super fast. And I'm gonna task you with a lot of work, much faster than I would have, but I need you to, I need you to do this. And she was amazing, quick study, really smart. Clients loved her. Here we are, two years in, and I would just tell you, it was faster than I I would ever have expected and more fulfilling than I ever dreamed, right? This is, and this is me just you know, putting faith and trust into this decision, and and it was it's been terrific.

SPEAKER_02 9:21

Amazing. I I mean, I do agree with you. We we hear a lot of stories with partnerships going wrong. So I think it is so amazing to also hear a partnership story going right, really going really, really well, and then it's even your own child. I mean, how amazing is that? And I'm already hearing a few things, you know, that I think, you know, in terms of trust building that have happened. For example, that your daughter took the certifications, you know, like you said, on her own dime, invested money and time in that, but also invested time to intern at your company to see if she really, really wanted that, and like taking those steps. So I think the effort that she put into it, I think is already a trust builder. Now, what else did she do exactly when she started? You said it exceeded expectations, which is amazing, but how exactly did she do that? Was there anything that we can really learn from what she did in terms of communication or you know, anything else that you think was the reason why she's been so successful?

SPEAKER_00 10:30

Well, I wanted her to be successful, so we really thought through what onboarding would look like. I talked to many peers in the industry, especially folks who had brought in family members, about how did you navigate this, right? This is work, you know, we're not gonna have a talk in the middle of the day about, you know, something that's personal. You know, how do you segregate that? What worked for other folks? So I really spent a lot of time talking to peers and they shared like, here's what worked, here's what didn't work. One of the things was coaching was great, so and that was important, and and just when did you meet, you know, all expectations. So we had a super clear onboarding that we've actually shared with a lot of peers since because it worked very well for us. And I think that that set expectations for her because she came in and, you know, she doesn't know what she's gonna do. I mean, it truly is you can take the CFP coursework all day long. That is not the same as knowing how to do financial planning. That is great, great background. But until you're in this, you really don't know how to apply a lot of that awesome knowledge that you have. So she was concerned like, how am I going to, you know, what's this gonna look like? So we were very, very clear. This is the onboarding, this is when we're gonna meet. You're gonna sit in every single meeting and be a sponge, you're gonna take notes. Initially, we brought AI on, we got rid of it because the value is really sitting in a client meeting, hearing, understanding, asking questions, right? But if you just rely on AI from the get-go, you don't get that knowledge. So we brought it on, we got rid of it. We, you know, we we really focused on how do we how do we educate Marnie? How do we introduce her to clients? How do we set her up for success? And she needed to know that there was a really good plan. And one of the interesting things about Gen Z folks, especially that I found is that these are people who want to know what happens next. What is the future for them? And not, you know, it's interesting because I guess it was really not something I can I thought about. I would, you know, I was, I pretty much thought the harder's the harder I work, like it's all gonna work out. But Gen Z is especially interested in knowing what the path is. And she needed to know that too. And I thought, well, you know, of course, you're I'm bringing you in as my child, and you know, if it works out, you'll be my successor. But it had to be clearer than than that. It had to be very clear. So we we would revisit that, right? And when it came time of equity, it wasn't just talking about it. It was, okay, what is the super clear plan? When can she expect to be having these conversations? And I thought that was really fascinating because that's very different from a lot of you know my generation, but just not how we did things. So anyway, I think in the trust, this kind of goes back both ways, right? Marnie had these expectations, and and I helped, I helped make sure that we met those, and I had the expectations as well. And you know, nothing is perfect. So we would go along the way and we would say, okay, we need to change some of these things. You know, maybe it's time to not meet every single day. Maybe it's time where we can leverage AI in our in our notes uh for our notes in our meetings. But you know, as as you go along the path, you see opportunity to change and make it better. And those are discussions we have, and we have quarterly meetings like any business partner would have. We sit down and we talk about how did that go last quarter, how you know, what are our expectations for the next quarter. We have annual meetings, what does that look like? How did we do last year? What are our goals for next year? So we're we're super clear in ways that I wasn't necessarily myself, but it was just me running the firm.

SPEAKER_02 14:01

Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. I think what I'm what I'm hearing you say is that your daughter was extremely clear on what she needed, right? Like what she needed was to know where is this going, right? What's what's the next step and the step after after that, and like what's the long-term vision for this? And then that like that also means that you're talking about, you know, goals and where the business is going and like that business planning element. I think that's that's really interesting. And I think if you say to a partner, like, hey, this is what I need, like, this is what we should discuss because I want to know this. I think it's a really strong, strong thing to do because then that opens those conversations. So it like it makes the communication, it opens the communication.

SPEAKER_00 14:46

Yes. And I think communication with any partner is critical, right? I'm sure you know that. I mean, it you have to be transparent. You have to talk this stuff out, whether things are going sideways or you know, or not, you have to have open communication. And so still to this day, we have a meeting on Monday, we have a meeting with our team on Monday, we have a meeting between the two of us on Monday, and we have a meeting on Friday to kind of recap and talk about what happens next. So I, you know, that doesn't mean we're not speaking to each other all the time. She's in Manhattan and I'm in Arizona. But, you know, we're on client meetings, some client meetings, some not. We're doing our thing, but we always will have these meetings, they're set. And I think that they're really important because I do believe that communication is absolutely critical.

SPEAKER_02 15:31

Absolutely, a hundred percent. So, Bridgetana, I'm also really interested. What is the story of folding trust that you brought for us today? What is a story where trust didn't work out so well?

SPEAKER_00 15:41

Yeah, yep, that's a good one. So, as a woman in finance, you know, I started in finance in 1986 at hedge fund, trading at a hedge fund in Manhattan, and did that for 10 years. Oh, maybe more than that. Left, became a pastry chef, and then came back into finance in a totally different capacity in financial planning when I got divorced for my own personal story. So, you know, I was in a new industry. I wound my way from a warehouse to a fee only RIA, you know, over the years. And when I joined the firm right before I launched Wealth Choice, I joined a firm that I never thought I would leave. It was perfect fit. Perfect fit in conversation, perfect fit on paper, right? My practice, which was serving executive women, fit in with these other two women and this women's practice we had. Uh, my expertise was really in this one space. We complimented each other. And the owner of this firm was, you know, a real supporter, supposedly, of women in our industry. And there's a zillion issues for women in financial planning. There is a huge retention issue, and that is really one of my big focuses and why I do so much work to help other women planners. But long story short, you know, I joined a firm that I thought was perfect fit. And I had two kids in college and I didn't really plan on leaving. Right. This was this is what I wanted. I got a paycheck, and I was gonna serve the women I loved the way I wanted. Unfortunately, things don't always work out the way you plan. And joining that firm, you know, one of the first things I had said to my owner was, I would love to be on the vice president track. So what's it gonna take to do that? And I got a lot of pushback. And this is from a guy who purported to be a huge, you know, supporter of women, women in our industry, just women in general. He had a bunch of daughters. He's like, Oh, yeah, I'm a huge supporter of women. I'm like, great. And I said, Look, I would love for you to be my advocate, no, my sponsor, right? Somebody make me the right introductions, believe in the work I'm doing. And he's like, Great, that sounds perfect. I'll do that. Well, so I also am of the background where you work really hard. And I was under the impression that the harder I worked, the more I would be recognized, that you just work harder. And I was working 68 hour weeks. I had a ton of events, four women execs, panels and discussions and you know, speaking gigs, and you name it. And I just I went all in because I really wanted to be successful at this. And I had a meeting with my boss several years into this, and he said to me, you know what, Bridget, you are far too ambitious. And I said, Oh, okay. And our firm had been, had become a focused financial firm, which at the time basically meant we give you cheap money, there's this huge year-over-year growth. Our roles had shifted, where instead of just bringing in clients and serving those clients, you brought in those clients, you had revenue goals, you passed those clients on to junior planners because now you became like a business development person. Like you are a revenue generator because that's how that's how the business model is. Um, and that's not why I got into this. So I was looking to be rewarded for the work that I was doing, only to be told that I was I was too ambitious and I was not going to get what I wanted in terms of you know leadership path. And this person, in fact, was not a supporter. And I I think the harder I worked, the less support I received. And I remember when we were getting our bonuses, and I got the same bonus as a woman who worked part-time. And I was not okay with that. And then I also learned when I decided to leave that I was paid 50% of what my male peers were paid. And I know that is true.

SPEAKER_02 19:51

Wow. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 19:53

Yeah. So anyway, this is this is putting trust in someone who said things, who promised to support you, who was really going to help you succeed. And then realizing as you got into this that that was not the case, that you were truly alone. And this affected my health. I was so disgusted and upset and felt trapped. And you know, I had to have an income because I had a family and kids. And I spent about a year trying to figure out what happens next. And I talked to so many peers. And I thought if I just went to another firm, lateral move, it would all be good. And there was one person out of honestly, probably hundreds of calls that I made to peers. Like, what do I do? And one person said to me, Bridget, what you are looking for, you're not going to find. You have to build it yourself. And that was truly the reason I decided to launch Wealth Choice. I wanted to serve my clients the way I thought they were best served because that wasn't happening anymore. We we didn't have time to do the deep dive in your budget, right? What are the things derailing you? Are you negotiating for your next pay? None of that. There wasn't time for that. It was get the assets in, invest the money, move on. And so I wanted to be able to serve my clients the way it was really going to be meaningful. I wanted to get paid what I was worth. I wanted to have flexibility to see my children, which I never did, right? Never did, because that was not how that role was set up. And that's not how a lot of these roles are set up. And so, you know, I just took a step back and I said, holy cow, like this is the only way that I'm going to stay in this industry. It's going to be on my terms, but what a huge leap because I have to have, I have to make money, right? And this has to work. And so um, good news is my father is an entrepreneur. He's 88. He still runs his company. Guy's amazing. And he was like, Bridget, you can do this. And he helped me come up with like, okay, here's quarterly plans. This is what you're gonna have to do. You know, here's how you Budget this. I knew nothing, right? I'm I'm not a business owner, I'm a financial planner. He really gave me a crash course in entrepreneurship and I did it. I walked out the door, I was escorted out. Can't believe it, but that's how you do this still. Escorted out by security. And then I'm like, okay, uh, you trust me with clients and you're gonna escort me. And then I walked to my new office and I just got going. And it was just so disappointing, right? Because you truly thought that people cared, that that you could honor what they said, that they were authentic. And I'll tell you the biggest message is you have to take care of yourself. It is be really careful with who you trust. Do the due diligence. I mean, I I just really felt that you need to take care of yourself because not everyone's going to do that. The best thing I could ever have done, Anne, was launch Wealth Choice. After a few years into it, I was like, man, why didn't I do this sooner? And you know why? Because I was not pushed into it. I never wanted to do this. I love the company. I can't imagine anything else. It's thriving. I have awesome clients. I have a great partner. I have an amazing team. But I was pushed into this. And I think that's okay, but I think you need to be open. But again, it comes back to truly the only reason this happened was because of that bad experience, that lack of trust.

SPEAKER_02 23:32

Yeah, exactly. I think it's especially horrible because this person explicitly said that he supported women, right? Like he literally said that he's a supporter of women in the industry and in general. I think that is just either completely lying or just having no self-awareness at all, which both is not very good. Neither one is good.

SPEAKER_00 23:58

Yeah, it was really disappointing.

SPEAKER_02 24:00

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think, oh, that's that's just so horrible. Is there anything that you that you did differently from here? I mean, obviously you started your own company, which is a huge, huge step. But as you're, you know, working with people, working with clients, just like, you know, living life maybe in your personal life, is there anything that you change from that moment on?

SPEAKER_00 24:24

You know, I'm a really big supporter of folks helping each other in this industry. And I and I think that that's one of the messages, you know, that I learned from that prior experience, which was there wasn't really a lot of support at that company with each other, right? It was kind of like the older fashion, like eat what you kill thing. I really, when I left and I and I launched my own company, I was a true solo. And I reached out to a girlfriend who also had her own firm, Solo, um, and we became each other's community because you know, you're just out there by yourself. And her name is Katie Burke, and she became my business partner in this other company. But we, you know, we became each other's sounding boards. And we just said, hey, you know, what if we what if we put together resources that support both of our firms, right? It's cheaper, we have access to better stuff. And we wound up launching an RAA that we are both part of, and we just said, let's make it available to other women who look like us, other women who, for whatever reasons, want to run their own company. If this is going to keep them in the industry on their terms, we're gonna help them. And so it is an absolute passion of mine, of my partners, because of our experience. She had a similar but different experience at her prior firm. And so one of the things that I think is awesome about our industry is that there is an abundance mentality. There are a lot of people who want to help each other, who go out of their way to help each other be successful. And that is something I love. You just have to find the right community. And I think, you know, when you talk about trust and relationships, you know, we have there are 11 firms on that platform, in that REA, running their own companies, their own brands, their own clients, but we are all part of this community where we can come and support each other. And I think this is what is sorely needed in our industry. It's still women are still such a small minority, and the number of women who stay, who are retained, is terrible, right? For all the reasons that I went through, for lots of other reasons that, you know, experiences women have. But I think if you are surrounded by folks you trust who you know are interested in sharing and helping each other succeed, then far more, far more women will succeed in this industry.

SPEAKER_02 27:00

Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's also a common thread that I see in your stories because actually, when you were talking about bringing your daughter into your firm, you also mentioned that you asked peers, like, what do you think of this? How did you do this? Like, give me advice, like, you know, give me your thoughts. And then, you know, here again, I think also maybe, you know, if there might have been a very open conversation about salary, maybe you would have found out sooner that you were severely underpaid. So I think your point on like the value of community and being supported and finding your supporters, talking to your peers, having a strong and engaged network that you can tap into when you need it, but who can also ask you for help. I think that's extremely important. And I think that's a big takeaway for this episode today, is that, you know, in your success story that worked out really well, in the falling trust story, I think that might be a thing, you know, that could have could have changed things slightly, even though, you know, this horrible person would still have done what he did.

SPEAKER_00 28:05

You know what? I I I when you think about that crime to crummy story, I was in a mastermind group of women at that time. And that day that I had that meeting where I was told I was far too ambitious. And by the way, I got a public apology. That's another story. But I left this meeting and I was so deflated and miserable. And I'm like, I can't stay here. What am I gonna do? And I was on my way home, and it was the night that I would meet like once a month. My our mastermind group would get together for dinner. And these were these brilliant, high-powered women in all different industries, primarily tech, believe it or not, biotech, but but a group of women who were just, you know, we all had our issues in business, but it was super supportive. So I turned around, I was driving home, and I actually turned around and I thought, you know what, I'm going to the dinner. I'm going to the dinner and I'm going to share what just happened to me. And it was pivotal. And we got there, and I'm like, you guys, I got to tell you what just went down. And I don't even know what to do. And I had the most fabulous feedback from these women who were like, Bridget, you need to launch your own firm. And it was really, really important feedback from folks who I trusted, right? Who could relate to a lot of my own experiences. And those women made a big difference to me. So whoever your tribe is, you have to have this group of people.

SPEAKER_02 29:37

Absolutely. Yeah, no, 100%. I can absolutely see how how valuable that is and how valuable that can be. And yeah, I think that's honestly really great advice for anyone in business, right? Financial planners or otherwise. Yeah, 100%. Bridget, thank you so much for sharing your stories on trust with us today. If people want to find you online, either of your businesses, what's the best place to go?

SPEAKER_00 30:02

Sure. So you can go to Wealth Choice. Um, it's wealthchoice.com. And my other company is called Equita Financial Network, and it's Equita, EQ I T A F N.com. And I will talk to any woman who has challenges in this industry or any guy, you know, but I get so many folks, so many women reach out for okay, help me through this, give me your feedback. And I am honored and blessed to be able to give them any sort of guidance just based on my own experience. So, yep, if anybody has any interest in the conversation, please reach out. I'm more than happy to carve out time.

SPEAKER_02 30:38

Amazing. Thank you so much. And we'll make sure to add the links to the show notes. Um, so you can go to the description below if you're if you're listening to this episode, you can click the links there and reach out to Bridget. Bridget, thank you again for coming on the show. It was a pleasure to have you here. Thank you so much. Thanks, Ann.

SPEAKER_01 30:57

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