Ep. 15 Mental Health: Beyond the Therapy Room

Tyler Schuhly, M.S., LPC, NCC is a Licensed Professional Counselor and Nationally Certified Counselor with degrees in Psychology and Counseling from Cairn University, where he also completed a minor in Bible. Since entering the mental health field in 2019, Tyler has founded Active Therapy Counseling and the nonprofit Active Therapy Christian Counseling, with a mission to connect mental, physical, and spiritual wellness. He is passionate about expanding access to counseling and helping individuals achieve lasting growth and healing.  

Learn more:

-https://activetherapycounseling.com/

https://activetherapycounseling.com/home/client-portal/

Contact:

• Email: tschuhly@activetherapycounseling.com
• Phone: (717) 814-9016  

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

Welcome to the Perfectly Disordered Podcast. I'm your host, Reality Pisquity. This is a place where heroes' journeys are told, where stories of hope are shared in the time when it's needed most. We shine light on the messiness of life so we can ultimately become the hero of our own stories and not just a background character and someone else's. Enjoy the show.

unknown 0:23

Good job.

SPEAKER_01 0:24

Yeah. Yeah, I I do stuff all the time, like not all the time, but like I just got finished doing a um I guess that was mid F no early February.

SPEAKER_04 0:33

You're about to watch me do the thing that I keep doing for every episode now because I don't have a. Do you want to come through here? No.

SPEAKER_01 0:39

You have to try and like dodge the wires.

SPEAKER_04 0:41

This is what I do.

SPEAKER_01 0:42

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_04 0:42

This is what I do.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

The behind the scenes.

SPEAKER_04 0:46

The behind the scenes. I know. I've done this every time now, and everyone's like, Do you want me to move? I'm like, no, this is what I have to do. It keeps me agile.

SPEAKER_01 0:53

Do I need to get in close?

SPEAKER_04 0:55

No, so you're so you the goal is like about a fifth distance away. Okay. Yeah. So do you have any rings on or anything? I gotta take my rings off. Alright, no rings, no rings. No accessories. No accessories.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

Um but yeah, I just did like a presentation in uh early February. Oh, cool. And yeah, it's always it's always like I get up there and I'm like, alright, this is it's good, but it's also gonna kinda suck because that's like out of my comfort zone.

SPEAKER_04 1:22

Oh yeah, 100%. I'm wondering about the Pepsi like logo. I'm wondering if that's gonna be a problem. That's why I always take my my things off.

SPEAKER_01 1:29

Let's let's actually do this and see if you can get sponsored.

SPEAKER_04 1:32

Oh god, but what if they don't like what I say? Maybe. Oh, I have a you know what?

SPEAKER_01 1:36

I'll tell you what we can do.

SPEAKER_04 1:37

Go in the kitchen, grab if you go up towards the sink to the left, there are like glasses up there. And some of them are like the perfect size for like uh like a soda. There's like glass. One of them says MILF. Yeah, no, choose MILF, please. I, you know, that's the energy that honestly would help to fuel you for this. That the one with all the yeah, the little quotes or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 2:04

Oh, I just thought this look like Oh, that one, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:07

It's not like distracting, but it's like sure. Sure. Cool. Well, like I said, I'm really I'm really glad you were willing to come on. And like Molly, you know, highly recommended. And um, so I told her today, I was like, I'm interviewing Tyler, and she was like, oh, yay, yay. All right, well, Tyler, officially welcome to the perfectly disordered podcast.

SPEAKER_01 2:31

Wait, are we on?

SPEAKER_04 2:32

We're on. We've been recording. Are you serious? Like this whole time.

SPEAKER_01 2:37

I didn't sign anything.

SPEAKER_04 2:38

No, you're good, you're good. No, it's fine. Um, just your firstborn child, really. Well, I'm gonna ask of you. Um biggie, though. No biggie. Okay. Um, but yeah, welcome to the show. Yeah, thank you. Really glad to have you on. Um, backstory the way that I know you is through Molly, um, who I recorded with my old time BFF, and I recorded with her um several episodes ago. And she I asked her for some recommendations for people to be on, and you were like one of the first people that she mentioned and brought up. Yeah, because the work that you do is amazing. So I'll ask you just kind of open up and just tell me like all the hats that you're wearing right now.

SPEAKER_01 3:17

Oh boy.

SPEAKER_04 3:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:19

Um, well, I I guess in the field, I'm a mental health therapist, and then I have uh two practices. I have one active therapy counseling. That's the original one that I had opened. And then after opening that and kind of like kind of seeing uh ways that I was not able to engage with the community as a profit business, then I opened Active Therapy Christian Counseling, which is a nonprofit. So now like that opens up, you know, the door for people to donate and like for us to get involved in the community and all that kind of stuff. Um, so basically, mental health therapists, a business owner. I also do like all of the administrative stuff for the business. So I'm like the all the hats.

SPEAKER_02 4:04

Yeah, that's that's owning a business. You gotta do it all. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:08

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 4:09

And so so I try to minimize the other hats that I wear outside of work right now because I don't have much room left on my head.

SPEAKER_04 4:17

Right. Like you can only have so many, like top hat, bowler hat. Yeah, yeah. You can only do so many. Yeah, yeah. I totally understand that. I totally get that.

SPEAKER_01 4:26

Well, before we get too started, I just want to say like thank you for having me. This is, I think this is the first podcast that I'm like the primary guest on.

SPEAKER_02 4:35

Oh, that's so cool. So I'm so honored that you're here. You've done you've done a podcast before.

SPEAKER_01 4:41

Um, so I used to work for In Him Christian Wellness, and they what did they call it? I think they called it the Pastor and the Counselor or something. Oh, cool. Um, and it was just like they had a podcast every week or two weeks or whatever where they just, you know, talked about mental health and how like it connects to the Bible and whatnot. And um, you know, at the time I was the person at in him that would do what we called active therapy. It's like something I'm developing um where you basically you like you have the therapy session, but you do it outdoors while you're engaging in like a like a fun physical activity.

SPEAKER_04 5:17

I can't wait to talk to you about that because kayaking, hiking.

SPEAKER_01 5:20

Yeah. So they brought me in to kind of answer questions and talk about that portion of in him Christian wellness.

SPEAKER_06 5:27

Oh, cool.

SPEAKER_01 5:27

So and that was kind of the thing that inspired me to open active therapy counseling and active therapy Christian counseling is to focus on that.

SPEAKER_04 5:34

That's so cool. Yeah, all right. So you had you had experience then. Well, yeah, yeah, maybe a little bit. Yeah, because some people like get in front of the mic and it's a little jarring, I think, initially, until you get comfy. Because it's just, I don't know. It's weird. It's just a weird thing to have a mic in front of your face and be like, nah, talk. Try not to act weird. Like it's like it's a lot of pressure.

SPEAKER_01 5:53

I'm feeling it right now. Oh no, you're trying to do it.

SPEAKER_04 5:55

You're doing great, you're doing great. Okay, all right. So let's see here. All right. Um, so this is gonna the the theme of this is really gonna be to kind of like talk about how you started. Um, explaining, you know, where you first got inspired to do this work, and then kind of just getting some detail about what you do. Yeah, you know. Um, so when did you first sense you were drawn towards helping people in a deeper way?

SPEAKER_01 6:22

I think okay, so I think my whole life, but I don't think I realized that that's what I was actually drawn to until 2013. Thirteen or fourteen. Um so the majority of my life I actually wanted to be well, early life, I wanted to be a police officer. Oh yeah. And so my thought was like I th I think it started because my uncle's a police officer. Um and I guess I kind of like looked up to him, and then I don't know, like the more I thought about it, I was like, oh, that sounds like a fun job, you know. Um like it's always it's never like the same thing, it's always changing. Um, you know, I it's like being like restricted to like a cubicle sounds miserable. So like I don't think I don't want a job. Yeah, I don't want a job that's like Groundhog's Day, or that like I feel like I'm you know contained. So I thought like, oh that sounds like a good job. And then like I think that was like, geez, elementary into middle school. And then I think as I like matured, I realized like, oh, what I'm actually drawn to is like helping people in general, and then like being a police officer, I feel like initially I thought kind of appealed to me for that reason. But then like as I continued to grow up, I realized that like as a police officer, typically you don't really encounter the people that want your help, you encounter the people that don't want to see you, right? And I was like, okay, well, maybe that's not the best the best route. And then you look at you look at statistics, and it's like the stress levels for police officers are like through the roof. You know, I think I think divorce rates are 60% higher for them than typical people, which is already a high divorce rate.

SPEAKER_02 8:11

Wow, I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_01 8:12

Yeah, I mean, you look at like you know, addiction, like alcohol. I mean, it's just like it's really bad. And I'm like, I'm like, okay, like, you know, we all like to believe, oh, that won't be me. But everyone that's in those positions likes to believe that won't be them, you know? And so I'm just like, geez, like that's a lot that I'd be putting on myself, that's a lot that I'd be putting on my family. Um eventually one day. Right, right, right. Um, but like, yeah, I don't know. The more I thought about it, I was like, you know what? Like, it might still be a good, a good path to go. So I I finished out, I I went to um York Tech for protective services. It was like a like a high school/slash tech school. Oh, cool. Um, graduated there, went to Baltimore County, took the all the exams and everything. I passed everything except for I failed the bench at that point. I think I had to bench like I think it was like 210 pounds or something.

SPEAKER_04 9:08

Which like it's funny that they make you do that when they literally I don't think they ever ask you to do that ever again. No, it's like one and done, and then after that you can just let yourself go.

SPEAKER_01 9:20

Yeah, when I I lost everything with flying colors, and like the bench, I it was a press, so it wasn't like down and then back up. You couldn't use motivation. Or um, I'm sorry, momentum. Yeah, so like no motivation either, just stop well, you have everyone around you staring at you, so you're like, man, if I if I fail this, I'm gonna look like a wimp. So like you're down here. I got it almost up and I couldn't lock it out. And so then they're like, sorry, that's still a fail. And I was like, dang. What? Yeah. So I was but I was driving home and I was like, I am actually not as upset as I thought I'd be. So then that's what got me thinking, okay, maybe my heart really isn't in being a police officer, um, which is a good thing because if you're gonna be a police officer, that better be what you want to do.

SPEAKER_03 10:06

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:06

So um I have like a weird journey, I guess. From there.

SPEAKER_04 10:11

I love it. That's that's that's the point.

SPEAKER_01 10:13

Yeah, well, so from there, I didn't really know what I wanted to do, and I like I knew I wanted to help people. Um and I I don't really know how this even fits in. But somewhere along the way, I was talking to my uncle, who is the police officer, and he was like, Man, I'm so thankful that you did not get into that because like it's it's going downhill quick, and it's like you what you have to deal with is not worth it. Um so he's like, Well, you like cars, you know. He's like, Why don't you think about becoming a mechanic? You know, you're you can help people through like fixing their car up and all that stuff, and I was like, Yeah, let me think about that.

SPEAKER_04 10:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:54

So I went and applied to it's a very different field though.

SPEAKER_04 10:58

I kind of love that. So different. Oh, police officer, or maybe not, but like mechanic. I mean, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:05

Why not? Yeah. So, and this is this is in uh this is like right after high school because I went and took the test. I think the moment I graduated, like the next week, I went and took the test for police officer. Um, so this is like right after that. I went and applied to Toyota as a for a mechanic position, and I straight up told them, I said, Listen, I love cars. I have never worked on a car in my life, but I I want to learn. And like I left there thinking, there's no way I'm getting this job. They called me back and they're like, hey, if you're willing to learn, we want to teach you. So that's great. Yeah. So then I like went and they're like, you know, we'll send you to this T10 program where you'll learn how to like work on cars and we'll pay for it. And, you know, you'll work, uh, I think it was like seven to four Monday to Friday. You have to work one day of the weekend once a month. And I'm like, okay, this is like very well. Then I get into it, and it's like they never sent me to school. My hours were 10 to 7, which was horrible. Oh my gosh. Yeah. And then like I had to work Saturday, Sunday, every weekend. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:11

So I was like, okay, this is Oh my god, I completely lied to you.

SPEAKER_01 12:14

Yeah. So so I I left there. Um, and I was just looking at like people that have been there for like 40 plus years, and they were just miserable. So I'm like, again, why do I think I'd be any different? I'd like to think that I would I would be, but like, you know, I don't think they got into this job thinking that, oh, this is gonna be miserable. So I left there. Um now I really didn't know what I wanted to do.

SPEAKER_04 12:39

Um were you disheartened at that point at all, or were you just kind of alright, I guess I'm on to the next thing.

SPEAKER_01 12:45

I don't think I was a little bit lost, but I don't think that I was disheartened at that point. Um I read a book called The Defining Decade. I recommend everyone read it. Basically, it talks about your 20s, and it says how everyone thinks, like you're you're sold this idea that you need to have your life figured out by the time you're 20. Like you graduate, you need to know what you're going to college for, you need to like get your career started, you need to own a house, you need to have a family, you need to go on vacations, like go do the Europe trip. And it's like social media is hasn't really helped that because you look at everyone's social media and it looks like they're all living the life.

SPEAKER_06 13:26

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:27

Um, and so there's like this pressure that's on people who are going into their 20s or who are in their 20s to feel like they have it figured out. And the thing like this book goes through like all the statistics and everything, and basically it just takes the pressure off because it's like the goal of your 20s is to figure out what you want to do, who you are, who you want to marry, like all that stuff. And then your 30s is actually when most people start building the life that they've envisioned. So I feel like it that took the pressure off of me. Um but I do recall after that I was just trying to figure out what I wanted to do. Obviously, I didn't have a job at the point at that point, so I um someone came into my mom's work and told her that I think it was like their son or something, was a manager at like a local uh car shop and needed help. And so my mom's like, oh man, like you should go help them out. So I I went helped them out. Um, but I didn't really help them out because while I was working there, I was just making so many just like dumb mistakes. That like it's like it's like not it's mistakes that I I don't even know.

SPEAKER_04 14:37

I it's just you're not present really and you're not um you're not invested in the work really, and so your brain's just preoccupied.

SPEAKER_01 14:46

Yeah, well, and then so then I remember I actually I after the one mistake, I I pulled the manager aside and I said, Hey, listen, like I appreciate the opportunity, like I really don't think I'm helping you guys out. I think it's probably best if like I just part ways, you know, and they were that they were nice. They were like, Yeah, like you know, you're a great guy, um, but like, yeah, we we think that that's probably also a good idea. And I remember when I left there, that's when I felt disheartened. Because I I was like, not only did I not know what I wanted to do, but now I feel like I wasn't capable, you know. Um so then I was like, well, I have no idea what I want to do. I have I'm doing nothing with my life. Um and a youth ministry intern position opened up at the local church, and like two of my best friends were working there. So I was like, okay, that'd be a fun gig. Yeah. So I went and and uh applied for that, got that position. So I was basically like during the day, I was intern slash church maintenance slash security. During the night, I let like like I guess I kind of did the same thing, but like, you know, more focused on the youth ministry during the night, and there the day was more like you know, maintenance stuff. Um and while I was there, that's when I really started realizing that I think maybe like therapy or like some sort of counseling role is what I was wired for. And then it I I thought back to like school and everything, and it's like, man, like everyone in school seemed to feel comfortable to come to me and to just tell like talk to me about what was going on. And obviously at that point I have no idea what I'm doing. I'm just like listening to them.

SPEAKER_04 16:31

Right, yeah, just being a good friend.

SPEAKER_01 16:32

Yeah, well, the thing is that's crazy, is like it wasn't even only friends.

SPEAKER_04 16:36

Oh, just people would just be like feel called to talk to you.

SPEAKER_01 16:39

Yeah, like there's people that like knew my name, but like we never really talked to each other, and they would just like come up to me and start talking, and then like through conversation, we would just get into like these deep like things in their life, and then I would like walk away and be like, that was weird, you know.

SPEAKER_04 16:52

So some people do have do have that energy, yeah. It's a real thing, like they almost walk around with this sort of uh invitation that they're a safe person to share with, yeah. And that's what I I find that with people, like I've met people in my life like that. I've been told I'm somewhat like that as well, where people will just kind of will just start spewing and because they just can sense that you're somebody that it's safe with, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:18

Well, I think I think that's what it is. It's like it's like safety, um it's like authenticity. Like that's definitely I mean if anyone's ever met you, like from the moment that they meet you, it's like, oh, this is like her. She's not putting on a front or anything. Um, and then I think there's like this level of knowing that this person like isn't gonna judge. Right. And I don't even know like practically what that looks like in someone, but like there's just like this feeling that you know that okay, this person's this person sees me as a human and they're not gonna judge me. And so um, you know, I started really thinking about okay, I think maybe I want to be a counselor, um, which is ironic because I hated school. And I was always like, like, God, you better have something that doesn't require college because I'm not going. And of course, he's like, surprise, you need a minimum master's degree.

SPEAKER_03 18:09

You're gonna actually do the most. Exactly. You're gonna do the most.

SPEAKER_01 18:13

So the thing that solidified that was I was in the office one time by myself, and one of the students came in and just sat down, and I was like, Oh, what are you doing here? And they're like, Oh, I have a therapy session soon, but I'm a little early, so I figured I would just pop in and see what you guys are doing. So I just started talking with them. Um, and they get up and they're like, Well, I gotta go to my counseling session. But honestly, this was like probably one of the best ones I've had. And then they just left. And I was just like, I remember I sat there just like, oh wow, what? I was like, is that what this was? I was like, if that's what this was, then like I definitely need to do this because that was easy.

SPEAKER_02 18:47

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:48

You know? Oh my gosh. Yeah. So then that's I basically from there was like extremely confident that that's what I needed to do. Um, and I didn't really know what it was gonna look like specifically, you know, like going into it, I never thought I was gonna open my own practice and do all this stuff. I just figured, you know, I'm gonna talk to people for a living. Um but as you continue down that journey, you know, the the verse, um, God is a lamp unto our feet, a light unto our path, like it's kind of alluding to a lamp light, which is not, it's not a spotlight. It's not like, oh, God's given me like every single step that I have to take and also the destination that I'm gonna arrive at. It's like God's given me enough light to see what the next step is. And when I step into that, there's gonna be enough light to see what the next step is.

SPEAKER_02 19:37

I've never thought about that before.

SPEAKER_01 19:39

Like yeah, yeah, and so basically I just stepped into okay, I'm gonna try and become a therapist. And um I uh I was already older than most people were when they went to college, so I found this program that was you get your bachelor's and your master's degree in I think it was in five years. Wow. Yeah, so you do like six classes every semester.

SPEAKER_04 20:03

Um my gosh, it sounds exhausting. Oh, it was horrible. It sounds terrible.

SPEAKER_01 20:08

If I could if I could go back, I would definitely slow down because like I mean, there was moments where it it yeah, it was it was hard. It was really hard.

SPEAKER_03 20:17

Especially for somebody who doesn't like school. That sounds like a nightmare scenario.

SPEAKER_01 20:21

Well, and here's the thing is like I actually once I got into learning something that I was actually interested in, I found that I actually enjoyed it. Oh, that's like I really enjoyed learning, I enjoyed like you know, researching and and all that stuff. Um I didn't think I would, but um I yeah, I was pleasantly surprised with that. Um but I remember there was one week that I had I think I had 11 papers due. It was crazy.

SPEAKER_04 20:48

Yeah, that I it was crazy. How did you like not fall apart? That would have driven me absolutely insane.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

Lots of coffee. Yeah, lots of coffee, and um and just yeah, I don't know. You just have to like I that was obviously that was abnormal. That was like the most papers that I had to, and not all of them were huge, but like, yeah, it was scary. It was scary, and that that I don't know. I think one of the things that you learn in college isn't just like book knowledge, it's it it um it strengthens your ability to handle stress, like it puts you in a position where like you're either gonna make it or you're gonna break it.

SPEAKER_04 21:31

And they don't care if you make it or not, yeah, they're gonna take your money.

SPEAKER_01 21:34

And so and so like you graduate college with an ability to tolerate like a ton of stress and pressure on you that you can then take into whatever you're gonna do with that. Um so so yeah, anyway, I I went down that path of of getting the degree, and then um somewhere along the way I realized that I didn't feel like sitting in a room and talking all day. So then that's when I was I just I like the outdoor. I like being active, you know. I noticed that when people would go to the gym with their workout buddy, typically conversations would get really deep with people. Oh, sure. And I was like, man, why like therapists always recommend, oh, you should try to get out more. Oh, you should try to get more active. But then we like we like set aside this hour of their week and we just sit in a room and talk to them. I'm like, why are we doing that? Why don't we do the stuff that we're recommending that they do during the session?

SPEAKER_04 22:27

Is that the biggest when you were doing your because you have to do like clinical not clinical trials, you have to do like practice runs with with people, right? Like when you're doing therapy and you're practicing, you have to sit in with a therapist, right?

SPEAKER_01 22:41

At first, kind of there's there's different ways to do it. Some places will do that. I was kind of so the program I went to, we had every week we would have like a three-hour core class, and then we would have what we called lab. It was like a three-hour lab. And that was with other people that were in the program. So you'd practice your counseling skills with other students.

SPEAKER_08 23:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 23:04

Um, and usually when you well, sometimes when you graduate and you do your practicum and your internship and stuff like that, sometimes you sit in with a therapist and like watch them. I was just handed like a client, and they're like, all right, like, good luck. Oh my god. Yeah. Yeah. The first question that I was ever asked ever as a as a therapist was, um, I remember I went through all the paperwork and I said, All right, so before we begin, do you have any questions? And the person was like in their 60s. And they're like, Yeah, I do have a question. Uh, how old are you? And I was like, um, 20, I forget what I was. I think I was like I think I was like 24, 25, something like that. And he's and he goes, Okay, so younger than my youngest son, okay. And I was like, Oh, this person's not gonna last. They're gonna they're not coming back. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:53

But so like, okay, so when you first started, was was the lack okay, so movement and exercise, right? They say that's like the number one most like unutilized, what's the word, less utilized tool for combating depression, anxiety?

SPEAKER_01 24:12

A lot of studies would say that physical activity, and I think it's as little as like a half an hour twice a week or something like that. It's it's like 1.5 times more effective in combating depression and anxiety than psychotropic medication.

SPEAKER_04 24:27

Right. So yes. So did you notice like in your sessions early on that there was this gap, like as far as people would sit down, they would talk, and you were like, I feel like people need more. Like what when did you start to notice that there was something just like missing that you needed to add in that movement? When did you see that?

SPEAKER_01 24:51

So it was actually before I started seeing clients.

SPEAKER_03 24:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 24:54

Um, I remember I forget what class it was, but I was sitting in a class and the professor said, they said, um, therapists focus on the brain while doctors focus on the body. And I remember thinking, like, I don't like that. I don't think I agree with that. Because if if like if we're connected, if I stub my toe, I'm I'm gonna get emotional. Sure. Like I'm gonna get frustrated or sad or whatever, you know? And so like I think do thinking of it that way is like hindering therapy. And I remember thinking about that, and I just kind of ran with that, thinking, okay, well, how can side note I'm like very much a I look at how something's done and I'm like, how can I do that differently?

SPEAKER_04 25:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:37

Like, why is that the way to do it?

SPEAKER_04 25:38

And why is that the only why is that the agreed upon right answer when it doesn't seem to be what's actually true?

SPEAKER_01 25:44

Right. And the field of of counseling and psychology is like kind of like the infant of the sciences, you know, it hasn't really it hasn't been around like anywhere near as long as like the other sciences. Um and so I I just kind of knew that there was like there was a lot left to be uncovered um with with psychology and counseling. And so when I heard that statement, I was like, I I don't think I agree with that. And then it really got me focused on in a sense, like proving why that's not true. You know?

SPEAKER_02 26:16

I love that.

SPEAKER_01 26:17

Yeah, and then I and then as I actually try to utilize it more, um, you know, what I found is people they loved it. I've I don't think I've ever had someone that has done what I call active therapy and and went, eh, this isn't for me. Um because I got Which is major because people will it's like dating.

SPEAKER_04 26:38

People will pick up a therapist, try them out for one or three sessions and be like, mmm, I didn't like their vibe, or oh, they kind of triggered me, so no, or whatever the narrative is, they just don't vibe with that person. So I feel like the success rate for like a good solid therapist um patient relationship is actually pretty low. Oh, yeah. So the fact that you're seeing so much positive um results with this kind of physical active therapy is really awesome. Because I feel like otherwise it's the success rate's not very high. Um, at least from what I see, from my own experience being in therapy and you know, all of that.

SPEAKER_01 27:17

Yeah, it's I mean, and I tell people all the time, you know, therapy, finding a good therapist is not like finding a doctor. You know, if if your doctor has the personality of a ham sandwich, they can still do their job. But if if your therapist is someone that you can't connect with, it's very hard for anything to actually happen. Um But I I think that like like you're saying, you know, instead of sitting in a room and just staring at someone, getting out and doing something actually can help, like I said about the working out, it can help build that relationship that's so crucial.

SPEAKER_04 27:48

Yeah. Um I love it so much. I love it so much for so many reasons. Like, yeah, it's it's oh gosh. I yeah, I want to get into like the details of how this works and like kind of the science behind it too. Um, but let me so you were doing you're working for what company at that point when you were just first starting?

SPEAKER_01 28:07

Uh the so my internship was at Oasis Counseling, which was like a counseling center in the university that I went to. And then when I graduated, I went and worked for In Him Christian Wellness.

SPEAKER_04 28:18

Okay. And then working there, when did you decide to start your own thing? Like when did that become your next step?

SPEAKER_01 28:28

Um I think I knew graduating, graduating college. I think I knew that I always wanted to.

SPEAKER_05 28:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:36

Um, you know, going into college, I didn't know that. But I think the more I really got excited about the idea of active therapy, the more it kind of sounds arrogant, but I was like, I I know what I'm envisioning in my head. Um, you know, as a Christian, I would say I feel like God kind of like downloaded the blueprint for me.

SPEAKER_04 28:58

Um nothing else like that really existed before that, right?

SPEAKER_01 29:02

Not really. I mean, I did a lot, like I so I had to do a thesis, and I did my thesis on like how active therapy can help uh we had to be like really specific. So I think it was like adult men in their 40s who were struggling with depression or something. And I just was trying to find a place that that had some program with active therapy. And I I mean I searched for hours and I think I found like maybe one that hinted at it, which they would just call like walk and talk therapy.

SPEAKER_06 29:31

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 29:31

Um now, like there's other there's other places that do like they'll call it like adventure therapy where they do like a ropes course and stuff, but usually those places are inpatient facilities, right?

SPEAKER_04 29:42

Yeah, and usually you're locked in that kind of environment.

SPEAKER_01 29:45

Yeah. Um, but I didn't really find any place that did outpatient active therapy um the way that I had kind of been envisioning it. So give going um graduating college, I kind of always knew that I wanted to start my own practice because then I wouldn't have to try to convince someone else to buy what you're selling. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 30:07

You already knew it would work based off of all the things.

SPEAKER_01 30:09

And in science, in like the science field, you know, if you don't have a person who's already established signing on to what you're doing, it's very difficult to um it's very difficult to convince people that like it's worth it. And so I was like, you know what? Like I I I'm pretty sure that this is gonna be convincing once people start just doing it. So yeah. So I I think I think even I think I remember even when I was hired, I think I told the boss at Inham Christian Wellness, um, and honestly, my one of my mentors, John, I said, Hey, just a heads up, like, this is probably temporary for me. Like, I I think I do want to eventually open my own my own practice. Um and and he was like, I'm on board with that. That's great. He's like, if God, if that's what God's calling you to do, then like I want to help you get there.

SPEAKER_04 30:55

So he believed in you. That's great. And like the vision that you had. Yeah, that's awesome. Did anyone think you were a little like anyone question it at all? Thinking you're a little crazy for going out and doing this thing?

SPEAKER_01 31:06

Um, I don't think anyone necessarily questioned the idea. I think if if there was anything that was questioned, it was either like the practicality of doing it, like how are you going to like hour by hour meet people outdoors and also have the equipment to do the activity that they want to do and also provide good therapy. Like it was just it seemed like very difficult. Um and as weird as it sounds, I think that the other thing that people questioned, and and some of these people rightfully so at the time, was like my ability to be a business owner. Um, and I think that you know, one of these one of these people was my dad, and he wasn't saying it in like a like a mean way, you know. I think that when I graduated college, there was a season where I think I was so I was constantly running as like fast as I could with college that when I when I graduated, like my body just kind of like shut down. And so I wasn't really motivated after graduating, you know. And I remember my dad one day, it was just me and him, we were in the kitchen, and he goes, Hey, he's like, I feel like I gotta say this. He's like, I know you really want to start this business, but I I really don't know if with where you're at right now, if you'd be a business owner. I I can I I don't think that you'd be able to do it. And he's like, and I I want you to one day be able to. He's like, but I also don't want you to get into this thing and and fail at it. Um and I remember like I really thought about that, and I was like, he's right. Like, if if the way I am right now, if I was to open a business, it wouldn't last. And so, in a sense, that was the thing that motivated me to become the person that could run a business.

SPEAKER_03 32:53

Oh, I love that.

SPEAKER_04 32:54

Yeah, because that's that's so cool because I feel like parents are um really afraid of hurting their kids' feelings. Yeah. And I find that it's very hard. I've seen this happen before my friends and myself, or you know, and thinking about Avalora as she gets older, my daughter. Um how do you balance like the grit and the grace? Yeah, you know, and how do you call someone forth that you love in a way that's going to be motivating, not um not detrimental to like their character.

SPEAKER_01 33:29

Yeah, how do you speak the truth in love with that perfect balance of both truth and love?

SPEAKER_04 33:33

Yeah, enough to where they're gonna be able to see their they can see their greatness and their potential and take that as a call to action, not like, oh, my parent hates me.

SPEAKER_06 33:42

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:43

So it's really cool that he that he lovingly said this is not gonna cut it.

SPEAKER_01 33:49

Well, and I think the thing that helped is like I I could really tell that he was nervous. Like I could tell he was like, man, like I really don't want to hurt his feelings, but I also feel like I need to say this. I could like I could see it on his face as he was talking. And so that's why I was like, okay, he's like, this is clearly him trying to look out for me.

SPEAKER_04 34:07

Yeah. Oh, I love that so much. That's so cool. Oh, because you just don't hear that very often. Usually you hear, you know, either the enabling, just like allowing the behavior, or just the you know, the cruel sort of militant, yeah, you know, not my house. You know, it's like, all right, there's a middle ground, but it's hard. Um, okay, so starting your active therapy practice, what did that look like? What were the the initial challenges? Like, what did that look like the early days?

SPEAKER_01 34:37

Well, I definitely I had no idea what I was doing. You know, like I didn't have a business background. Um, I I became an expert at talking to people, so that's like that doesn't really help with like administrative tasks and like the legal aspects of things. Um so I think it was just like I knew that there was like a giant mountain in front of me that I had to climb. And I also knew that what I thought was all of the stuff that I had to do was probably really only half of the stuff. And as I actually get into it, I'm gonna find like way more that I'm gonna have to do to get this thing started. Um yeah, I don't know. I guess I guess the hardest thing I think for me, honestly, um like the the the practical aspect of building a business, it's tough, you know, and like you you hear that, and I think that everyone hears that like oh being a business owner is like really hard and it like takes all of your time. And you just kind of think that's like a saying, and then like you do it and you're like, oh, okay, yeah, I'm like up at eight, and like some nights I'm closing my laptop at like midnight, you know.

SPEAKER_04 35:58

Um the the boundaries of your who you are as a person and the business that you own get very Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:06

When I think that the thing that made that difficult was like I I like didn't have like I I feel like God really blessed me with like a great community and I feel like I just didn't have the consistent I didn't have any time to like be involved in my community for at for at least a year probably. Um and that was like really difficult, you know. It's like I I I heard from some people that being the business owner is like really lonely. Um and I didn't really understand it until like getting into it. And it's not it it's lonely because like it it takes every every bit of your time, especially like starting off.

SPEAKER_04 36:42

And you're alone usually when you first start to so that's also hard because nobody is really in it with you the way that you are.

SPEAKER_01 36:50

Yeah, and it's like it's like you know, not to like make my situation sound worse, but it's like it's almost like extra lonely as a therapist because you you legally can't tell anyone anything about what your clients are. So like you'd have a rough day with clients, and someone'd be like, Oh man, like how you doing? And you just have to be like, rough day, oh you want to talk about it? I literally can't. Like it's illegal for me to talk about it.

SPEAKER_04 37:11

Oh, that sucks. That's so isolating. Oh gosh. Okay, so early days obviously were you know learning how to start this business and all of that is it that is a lot. Um so getting over that hump and really starting to to get out there, like on the field with people. Like, what was that first? I was like, you can't tell me details, but like that first session where you actually like went out with somebody to do something active and physical. Like, what was that like? What did you guys do?

SPEAKER_01 37:38

Yeah. Um I can tell details. I just want to navigate this carefully to make sure I'm doing it well. Sure. Um so the I I the one that I'm not sure if it's my first person, but the one that pops in my head is it's a person who um like they themselves identified as someone who never would have gotten into therapy, like ever. Um you know, they starting off multiple times, they they made it known that like this is very outside of their comfort zone and they are not someone to talk about their feelings, that they're very much of like a you know, just like like put your boots on tighter and just like tromp forward kind of thing. Um there was res there there was there was resistance, but not like like they were trying, they really were. Um but at the end of every session, I remember they would say, like, man, like this this is my kind of therapy. Um Yeah, it just it just seemed to allow them to feel more comfortable, like way quicker with the sessions. Um and I think you know, part of that is like even just the science behind it, you know, like there was an experiment where they had up just an empty room and two chairs, and they told like two women, go in there and just like arrange the chairs however you I I forget exactly how it went, but it's something like that. Go in there and just like you know, take a seat. Um, you can feel free to move the chairs around however you want. And the women went in and they arranged the chairs to be facing each other. Well, when they did the same experiment with two guys, the two guys went in and they arranged the chairs to be facing the same direction.

SPEAKER_06 39:26

So interesting.

SPEAKER_01 39:27

Yeah, and then like I mean, you think about um, you know, one of the common symptoms with autism is like difficulty maintaining eye contact and stuff like that. So if you think about doing an activity together, it it kind of takes the the and I told you starting off, like something I don't like is like focus being on me. Right, you know, and so that's another aspect that it really helps.

SPEAKER_04 39:47

You're actively doing other work, the focus is on the activity, right?

SPEAKER_01 39:50

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:52

Do you do you find it's it's it is like more effective for men than women? Um I'm sure both could benefit, but I feel like men would be yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:00

I think I think it's it's definitely I would say it it it's more of a no-brainer for men. Um yeah, I mean I I think it's it would be difficult to find a guy who would rather sit in a room and talk. Um not to say that you know they're not out there.

SPEAKER_04 40:18

No, no, but it's I think it'd be yeah, it's an easier self.

SPEAKER_01 40:22

Yeah, but I but I will say like a lot of a lot of women that I've had engage in it have really enjoyed it. Yeah, you know, um and like one of the things that I hadn't really thought about it being good with until I had a couple clients that worked through this stuff was trauma. You know, one of the main things with trauma is like you you want the person to be able to be present, and the way to achieve that is you want them to be able to feel safe in their own body. Um and so obviously, like one of the most popular tools for helping with being present and staying safe is grounding. And so as I was helping people work through trauma, doing the activities outside, even if it was just walking, you know, being able to talk through some of this stuff while you feel the heat of the sun on your face, while you're hearing you walk barefoot? Um, I invite them to if they want to. Yeah. But um I opt not to.

SPEAKER_04 41:19

Um, but uh you can go pretty ground it into my shoes, that's bad.

SPEAKER_01 41:23

But like hearing like the rustling of the leaves or like the birds chirping. Like, so there's it's just very much like set up to help someone remain present rather than sitting in a room in a my office, unfortunately, is a windowless room. Yeah, exactly. And so it's like it's yeah, it I feel like it's just the more I have people engage in it, the more it seems to fit um more generally with people and what they come in with.

SPEAKER_04 41:51

It's kinda cool. I've never really thought about it like this, but as you're talking, I'm sort of thinking like nature is sort of perfectly orchestrated to be a healing environment. Like, you know, you I mean, I was not a big nature girly for a very long time, and it showed in my 20s because I was miserable. Um I didn't really get into like the outdoors per se, like hiking until like my late 20s, early 30s. Um and I did feel better, right? And I but but not really fully understanding like why exactly. Um and as you're talking, I'm thinking, like, yeah, the outdoors are s is sort of this beautifully orchestrated sensory experience to help you process, be present, yep, get all of your senses engaged. Like it's very um like primitive, I guess. Yeah, yeah. So it but it's all subconscious. You don't know that when you're outside. You don't think, oh, this is really like hitting my old factory or whatever going here. You know, like no, like that's not what you're thinking, but that's what's happening. Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:56

Well, and they did a they did a study where they took um, I forget how many people, but they took people that were in an urban setting, and they took, they did a brain scan, and then they took those same people and they walked in like a tr like through a trail in the forest, and then they took them again and did another brain scan, and their brain like lit up like a Christmas tree.

SPEAKER_05 43:14

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 43:15

And the only difference was they had just come from a setting that wasn't that was more natural than the urban setting.

SPEAKER_04 43:19

Wow, that's so cool. Oh my gosh. Oh, yeah, I believe it. I totally believe it.

SPEAKER_01 43:24

Yeah, and I think that you know, there's I think that sometimes these things pop up that are like like um they become really popular, you know. Like one of the things that like it was I I guess it's still kind of popular right now, but it's like the the um I don't even know what they call it, like not sun staring, but like you go out in the morning and you like face the sun.

SPEAKER_04 43:45

Yes, yes, you know, um uh Andrew Huberman talked about the neuroscience behind why you don't want to look at the sun behind a window. You want to directly, as much as you can without hurting your eyes, look at the sun first thing in the morning for I think, what was it like five minutes or something? I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 44:00

Yeah, and so here's what I would say is like that stuff is really helpful. Like, like being outside is helpful. Getting active is helpful. Um, like uh exposing yourself to the sun, like all these things that you hear about are helpful. But it's not, it's not like you're going to like like uh cold plunge, you know, that kind of stuff. All this is helpful, but it's not like you're gonna do it and be like, wow, I really feel magical right now. Like it, they're just all like little things that just help you get that much closer to feeling good. But you probably won't even recognize it. Like it's it's yeah, so for people that are listening, like I don't want them to think, you know, well, I went out on a hike one time and like I didn't I didn't feel great. And it's like, well, that doesn't mean that it's still not good for you. Like you probably won't feel a difference until um you know six months from now, and you one day wake up and go, like, man, I actually kind of looking forward to this.

SPEAKER_04 44:57

Right. Yeah, it's funny for me, I was never um, I was never a science girly at all. Um, found zero interest in it. Um, and then in my later twenties, I actually Andrew Huberman did like change my life in a big way because I was never a science girly, I couldn't process it, but he would have these topics. I'm a big mental health um uh warrior advocate. You don't say um been through yeah, been through my own stuff. And um, but I and so on that journey though, there were things that I had noticed, just w just living life, and he would bring attention to them but in a way that explain why we have these phenomena happening and are happening in our bodies, how we positively react from these different stimuli, how it works. And I swear, like after listening to some of his stuff about just like sunlight, sun exposure, um it I'd be like, you know what, I'm feeling a little weird. I need to go outside for 15 minutes and just let the sun beam on my body. And would I have done that before? Probably not, but because I knew how that neuroscience worked, just a little bit, because again, not science girly, but just understanding these are there these are the things that are some of the things that are happening in your brain while you're doing this, and that's why it's beneficial. Like, do I feel amazing after being in the sun for 15 minutes? Maybe I don't feel a hundred percent better, but I do know. Yes, and and knowing can help you feel better, yeah. Yeah, it's it was it just changed my whole perspective on like the outdoors, the sun, uh, physical fitness, like just being able to hear some of that science and as the as the why, you know, behind it.

SPEAKER_01 46:42

And that's one of the things that that frustrates me with where the field is at today. And disclaimer, I'm not a psychiatrist, so I don't, I'm not an expert on medication.

SPEAKER_04 46:52

However, they're not even experts. Spoiler alert. Spent a lot of time with them, and I don't know if you know this, but they do diagnose things without looking at your brain and make real good guesses, and then throw things at you and say, Well, for like a month, and then you're not gonna feel you're gonna feel a lot better.

SPEAKER_02 47:12

All right, well, it's just kind of topic.

SPEAKER_01 47:15

Yeah, well, the scariest thing is when I have a guesses. The scariest thing is when I have a client come in and they're like, yeah, I'm on this for anxiety. And I'm like, okay, well, who's your psychiatrist? Oh, it's just my family doctor.

SPEAKER_02 47:23

And they're like, okay.

SPEAKER_01 47:27

Oh, listen, I respect them.

SPEAKER_02 47:29

They're all guessing. But there's a reason why they guess so much worse.

SPEAKER_01 47:32

There's a reason that there's a specific doctor for psychotropic medication. And here's here's the thing that here's the thing that like frustrates me is that's that's like the go-to. It's like when whenever we feel anything that feels off, our culture is it's it's the it's the two-day shipping culture of well, I just want to feel better now.

SPEAKER_02 47:58

Right.

SPEAKER_01 47:59

And without trying any of the stuff that you're talking about, that you've like, that you're like, wow, now that I've been doing this for you know a consistent amount of time, I do feel better. Yeah, but the thing is, is like people don't want to typically invest the time, um, or it's like, I mean, it just it's difficult. And so they go to their psychiatrist, and their side the their psychiatrist gives them medication that like might make them feel better. And it's like, well, of course, like that's what the point of it is.

SPEAKER_04 48:26

Like right, but but then the side effects and then the habits that would help you feel longer for longer term. Exactly. Like the best example I have is sleep medication. Um I remember when I learned about sleep habits and sleep hygiene from Andrew Huberman talking about exposure to blue light, the kinds of sounds you should be taking in after a certain time of night, how blue light after 11 p.m. has been shown to drastically um increase your risk of depression. Um all of these, the kind of lighting you have on in the evening after a certain time, just all of these really interesting explanations as to why these things will impact your sleep habits, even temperature, your type of blankets you're using, like all of these small details could be affecting your sleep, your sleep hygiene. But instead, if you're having trouble sleeping, you say I have insomnia, they say, Great, here's a clonopin. Instead of like, maybe you should are you scrolling on your phone in your bed? Well, maybe you shouldn't.

SPEAKER_01 49:30

Exactly. That's the thing.

SPEAKER_04 49:31

Blows my mind. Here's a clonopin in your bed. What?

SPEAKER_01 49:34

I'm sorry, what and also I appreciate that you found like the the probably the funniest name for a medicine to use as an example. Yeah, clonazopin.

SPEAKER_04 49:43

Clonapin? Clonapin. Yeah, clonopin. Yeah, that's like the benzo uh no, what is it?

SPEAKER_01 49:48

I hope it's not a benzo.

SPEAKER_04 49:49

Oh, it's a yeah, it's benzo. Is it really? Yes. Oh, come on. I was on it. Um, very hard to get off of it. It took months and months getting it.

SPEAKER_01 49:55

Benzos are dangerous to get off of.

SPEAKER_04 49:56

Oh yeah, that's why I had to have I've had a good, I've had some very good psychiatrists, I've also had some very horrible ones. Um, and getting off a benzo was one of the hardest things I've ever done. But I knew that it was never gonna be easy. And I and I had fixed my sleep hygiene so much that I was like, I I I know I can do it if I stick with it. And I did, thank goodness. My psychiatrist at the time was very, very helpful with that.

SPEAKER_00 50:21

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_04 50:22

Um, but again, I never had somebody be like, what are your sleep habits? Yeah, what's your setup like? When do you cut off caffeine? What you know, do you know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_01 50:31

Oh, I know exactly what you're saying. Like the typical the typical appointment is like a 15-minute appointment where they're like, Oh, how are you feeling? Good? All right, cool, I'll see you next week. You know, and it's like that's not that's not helpful. Yeah. And I what you got to, I think the key, which is our bodies are trying to preserve, like, like our bodies, our bodies don't want to be in a bad place.

SPEAKER_04 50:52

Our bodies are very wise.

SPEAKER_01 50:54

Yes, and so like the negative symptoms that we have are trying to call our attention to something to correct, so then we don't have that negative symptom. Like anxiety, I'm not saying this is across the board, you know. Like there, there's obviously there's there's a lot of cases where like someone has anxiety and it's it's it is just like an internal uh their brain for some reason is like is is um I'm trying to the word I'm thinking of right now might be taken.

SPEAKER_04 51:22

Hither fixating or ruminating on like unhelpful yeah, but it's trying to bring attention to something that you're meant to work through. Usually I find that it's the thing you're resisting.

SPEAKER_01 51:33

Yeah, well, and so and then when you give someone medication without giving them the opportunity to try to figure out work through said is figure out the routine that they have that's not healthy, or figure out the thing in their life that's missing. You know, when you just give someone medication, then you take away the the natural motivation that they had to try to better their life.

SPEAKER_06 51:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:55

You know? Um and I th there's a place for medication, you know. I think that there's a there's I've seen a lot of places where like uh a lot a lot of situations where someone, you know, they're so depressed that they really don't have the motivation to change anything. And the medication, it it alleviates that depression just enough to allow them to start making moves. Literally. Um and and you know, I want to make this disclaimer too. Um I'm not trashing psychology or psychiatry, or I'm not saying all psychiatrists are bad.

SPEAKER_04 52:24

No, I have some amazing psychiatrists.

SPEAKER_01 52:26

I think what you said is important. It's like you you want to find a psychiatrist who knows that the if it's possible, the goal is to not have you on medication. Absolutely. Just like a good mental health therapist, their goal is to have you one day walk in and go, hey, I don't think I need to come in anymore. Um if if you're and that's with anyone. I mean, apply that to apply that to anywhere. If you if you walked in to your dentist and their their goal was to have you have to consistently come back every week, that's a horrible thing. You know, and I think that like the same needs to be applied to the mental health field with an understanding that typically the things in the mental health field do take like a little bit longer to change.

SPEAKER_04 53:06

There's a there's this, yeah, the two-day shipping metaphor is a really good one because I feel like there is just so much impatience in our culture. People want to feel better right away, so fast, and really are not sold like the long-term solution, which is these small decisions that you can make with the help of a therapist or um active therapy, whatever the resource is, but that will be small steps in the direction that you want to go in, and you will get to where you need to go, but it's gonna take a minute. If you opt for again sleep as an example, if you say I have I have issues with insomnia, and the the psychiatrist says, Well, here's a benzo, and that will fix the issue. That doctor has taken your has taken away your ability to work through and process and to learn how to regulate yourself. Um it's that like empowerment through the process. That's the whole point. When you medicate, when you medicate the issue right then and there, you get an instant relief. But guess what?

SPEAKER_03 54:16

That instant relief will come with a multitude of a multitude of side effects, and also you lose the ability to work through it yourself.

SPEAKER_01 54:24

I I almost think of it like this is gonna be a weird metaphor, but I almost think of it like steroids. Where like if someone takes steroids, yes, they're going to get stronger. But it's kind of misleading because once you get off of steroids, all of that, not all of it, but a lot of it goes away. Sure.

SPEAKER_04 54:39

You know, you remove plummets, your sexual libido, all of these things.

SPEAKER_01 54:42

And so, so like same with same with psychotropic medication, you take this and it's like, yeah, you're gonna feel an effect, but it's kind of misleading because you take that away, unless you've put healthy patterns in place, it's you're you're still not living a healthy a healthy life. Right.

SPEAKER_04 55:00

Yeah, yeah. The patterns are the patterns are where you're gonna find the long-term, the long-term healing and success, especially with mental health.

SPEAKER_01 55:09

Um and ooh, yeah that's one more thing I like about active therapy, yeah, is when therapy's over, you have you have put in place for these people a really healthy routine of once a week getting outside and doing something that's like enjoyable, that's active, that's fun. Like, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 55:28

I love that. It's so cool. I feel like that's really the that's one of the probably the most effective ways you could do therapy. And it's kind of wild to me that it's not considered more standard, you know. Um, like I was I was in an inpatient um situation for about three months of my life in my early 20s, and did not go outside one time. Not once. And you think about that, you think about that and you go, how in the world? You know what I mean? Like how in the world do you and I look back on that now and I think it's a miracle that I made it out, but it's also the lack of movement. Like you weren't allowed to exercise inside. Are you serious? Mm-hmm. Yeah, because they're worried about people, you know, getting violent or whatever, right? They don't want people doing like a strenuous activity inside. So there's no gym, there's no, you know what I mean? There's no even like gym, just an open area to like run or to move, you know.

SPEAKER_01 56:28

Well, and then like how can you expect anyone to have like long-term health benefits from something like that if you're not if you're not teaching them while they're there how to thrive in an outside. The healthy routines. Right, right.

SPEAKER_04 56:41

Yeah. So it's you know, I just I think that an active therapy setting is incredible. I think it it's so cool that you decided to take this on because I think it's it's so needed um therapy services that are that are effective and like that is so needed. But then adding in the physical activity, especially in this day and age, they're they need each other so bad. So it's so cool that your what you've built covers both of those things, and I really hope that at some point um that becomes more integrated into you know the medical community as a whole. Um that's why I was so excited to have you on, because it's like there's so much to be said about the mental health community, and I have so much love and so much hate for that. There's it's so both for me. The mental health community has helped me in so many ways, and just it's also like hurt me deeply. Yeah, so I can hold both and just say that there is such a gap. So whenever I hear about something or I see something that I think, yeah, that that is something that can help bridge that gap. Like, oh, I just love that you're doing this. It's so freaking cool. Um, all right. So, what is one of the most fun things that you have done so far in your active therapy journey? Like, what's the most like one of the most like bizarro fun things somebody's been like, let's go do this?

SPEAKER_01 57:59

Well, it's not uncommon to go like kayaking, so that's fun. Um the most bizarre thing is oh man. This is gonna be out there for everyone to hear. Yay! So I used to do kickboxing.

SPEAKER_08 58:17

Oh, cool.

SPEAKER_01 58:18

Yeah, and um not I wouldn't like it wasn't like I wasn't like a professional or anything, but um, and I remember one day I was I was counseling someone who did not want and made it known that they did not want to be there. They were not opening up, they're just like this is stupid, you know. And um I got the vibe from them that they were giving, like, in a sense, it was they were feeding into this like tough persona that they felt like that they needed to uphold, and therapy is like a weak thing, you know. Um and so I remember the one day I was just like, gosh, I wonder like if this would work. So I I started talking to them about um I forget even how we got on the how we got there, but we talked about kickboxing. I think we talked about UFC, and I was like, Okay, did you watch the fights this weekend? He's like, Wait, you're into that? And so then I was like, I was like, Yeah, like I I used to kickbox and stuff, and they were like, nah. I was like, I have gloves out in my car right now. And they're like, What? I was like, yeah, let's go, I'll run you through some drills. So literally, we went outside, I got him, I had like my sparring gloves, which are bigger ones, and then I had like my my uh training gloves, which are smaller ones, gave them my training gloves, I had my bigger ones, and I just like basically ran him through ran him through like uh drills that we would do in kickboxing, and I mean we did it for you know 20 minutes or something, came back in and just immediately opened up, just started talking about life and all that stuff, and like I was like, wow, that's that really worked way better than I thought it was gonna do.

SPEAKER_02 59:53

Shot in the dark, but it feels like it could be right.

SPEAKER_01 59:55

And I swore I would never tell anyone that, but here we go.

SPEAKER_04 59:59

That's not that crazy. That's pretty awesome. Well, it's like in the moment, it's also like human, it's spontaneous. Like if two friends are hanging out and one goes, friend one friend goes, like, Oh, I got something really cool in the car, I want to show you. Like, I got something really fun, let's go do it. That's a natural human interaction. It's not normal to, like you said earlier, to sit and stare at this person. So it's like you're like, hey, I'm a human, you're a human, let's go do this fun thing. It's a human experience. Yeah, that is so cool. I love that. Yeah, it was cool. It was really cool. That's so cool. And he like stuck with it and like kept seeing you.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:31

Yeah, I think I think that was probably like a I want to say that was probably like a year-long relationship.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:37

Oh, that's so cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:40

That's awesome. Oh, all right, let's see here. Let's close up here soon. Okay, so what has what has this journey taught you about yourself?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:56

Um I think I think it's there's a couple things. The two things that immediately came to me, one is I think it really revealed some of my unhelpful tendencies. So, um, again, I'm a Christian, and so I believe that like this whole this whole idea and this whole journey that I've been on is basically God saying, Hey, here's like my specific mission for you. This is how I want you to be a part of my kingdom. Um, you know, I'm gonna allow you to be a part of this in this specific way. And I think my tendency, and I kind of alluded to it earlier, is I take that and I'm like, all right, cool, I'll take it from here. And it's not even like I'm not, I don't want God to be involved. It's like I feel this pressure that like now I have to do it. And like it's gonna like it's gonna inconvenience God or it's gonna be a like he's expecting me.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:01

You have to take it now.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:02

Yeah, he's gonna be he's expecting me to be the one that does it, and like he wants to just like sit back and watch, you know. And I like I know that's not true.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:09

That's interesting. I have that kind of default as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:12

Yeah, and it's like my brain. I know that's not true. You know, if you read it so interesting. If you read the Bible, it's uh nowhere in the Bible does it say that like you know, God wants to just sit back and watch us do work.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:24

Right, he's always in it with them, he's never, he never leaves you alone, truly.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:28

Well, and here's so this is this was a big turning point for me in therapy was in my internship, I remember I just felt like, man, I like honestly, I remember thinking, like, I'm a horrible therapist, like I have no idea what I'm doing. I just went through like all of this schooling, and here I am sitting in front of clients, and I feel clueless with what to do. Um and my my uh supervisor at the time, he said, he said, you know the story about the loaves and the fishes, and it's like you know, it's kind of scattered. There's like I think I think Matthew, Mark, and Luke.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:59

There's so many scattered tellings of that.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:01

Yeah, and so if you put if you find them and you put them all together, you kind of get the full picture, which is you know, Jesus and his disciples are there, and this crowd comes. Um, and like it says it says like a crowd of I think 5,000, but that's back then they would only count men. Men, yeah. So it's really like probably 15,000. Sure.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:17

Um people were having kids too, so we're talking a lot.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:21

Oh yeah. So um, you know, the the the everyone was hungry, they're like, Jesus, can you like help us? Can you feed us? Can you give us something to drink? And um he looks at the disciples, and the disciples are kind of like, Oh my gosh, like, we don't have enough food for all these people. Like, we can't do this. And Jesus says, Well, just give me what you have. Like, in a sense, he's saying, like, hey, I want you to be a part of this, but I'm the one that's gonna do the work. Right. I just want you to like provide something so you can be a part of it. And you know, he so he asks the disciples, give me what you have, and they just focused on all of the things that they don't have. They did the exact opposite of what Jesus was asking for. And like, well, I forget which book it is, but one of the books, it alludes to this like kid in the crowd who must have overheard Jesus and basically just like what he has. Basically, just gave Jesus his lunch for the day, which was like a couple sardines and like a couple saltine crackers. And I I like imagine Jesus like taking the bag and just like looking at the disciples being like and then just using that to like do the work, you know. And I think that I have to constantly remind myself that God's not asking me to feed the 5,000, God's going to feed the 5,000. He just wants me to be a part of it and give give him what I have to offer, you know? And when I realized that, like it took so much pressure off of me to just be like free in the moment and like to just be present with my clients. Um, but my tendency is to get away from that, you know. So if I'm not careful, I'll find myself thinking about how am I gonna feed these 5,000? And Jesus is like over there, like, hey, just give me what you have, like stop trying to do it all. Um I love that.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:05

Yeah, I love that metaphor. Again, it's like, I mean, I I recently finished the whole Bible, like, which was which was crazy. Oh my gosh. It changed my brain chemistry. I don't know for the better, fully, but it did something. Um you know, now I I hear these stories, and I've heard that story a million times, but like I I'm finding now that when I hear people retell these stories, I'm getting something new every time. And I've never really thought of it like that before. In this in the context that you shared, where it's you know, God's the one doing it. You just have to give him what you have, like what you're able to give. And then hi he will do the work. Yeah. And I've never really thought of it quite like that before. It's more like, oh, it's faith, right? Like you you give him, you give him something, he's gonna make it you trust him. Right, trust him. And yes, it is trust, but it's like if you just give him what you have. Yeah. That's really cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:58

Yeah, and so that was I think that's the biggest thing, one of the biggest things that I've learned about myself is like my tendency to think that I have to do it. Um and that's just for me, you know, that's just that's just the way, that's the unique way that I'm fallen, that I'm broken. My brain feels like I've gotta do it. Um and I think like the second thing, which is kind of the opposite of that, is it through this I think deep down growing up, I never really felt like that I was gonna be. I guess I never really felt like capable. You know, like I I knew that I was smart, like I didn't have to try in school. Um, you know, I knew I I'm my brother, literally, um until probably senior year in college, I I didn't I never studied. I had to learn how to study in graduate school, which was like not ideal. Um like all through grade school, my my routine was I would take my books and I I always make sure to bring all of my books with me because I was taller than most people, and so having all of my books was the perfect height when I put them on my desk to be able to put my head down and go to sleep. And every class that's what I would do. And like the first two weeks of new classes, teachers would be like, Alright, come on, you gotta stay up, you gotta stay awake. And then I would take my first test, and they'd be like, Okay, this must be working for him. We'll let him sleep.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:25

So weird.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:26

Yeah, I don't know. Um so like I knew that I was I knew I was I knew that I had I knew I could, but I guess there was just something in me that like I never felt, I never really felt capable. Um, and I think when I was put in a position where it's like, okay, I think this is what God wants me to do, and it's gonna be hard, but I'm gonna have to just like find a way to get there to like um to live up to the challenge. The positive that came from that is you find like wow, you're I'm like way more capable than I thought I was. And it's not about me, right? But I think that like when God wants all of us to have that moment where he gives us the thing that he wants us to be um a part of. And I think if we really latch onto that in a way that again, the pressure's not on us. It's like okay, God just wants me to wants me to be a part of this with him. But I think as we venture through that, we learn so much about like how capable we are when we are with God. You know? Um I think it's it's been like a really it's been a really cool journey. Hard, but like a really cool journey.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:34

Yeah, it is true. Like you kind of you don't realize it you don't realize it, but then all of a sudden you kind of look at the situation that you're in and you go, Whoa, you know, I I guess I I guess I am a part of something bigger. I guess I am capable of of showing up, of doing the work that needs to be done, of following the path that's being laid out for me. Like just following it, you know, just being like I I will I trust myself to take the steps, yeah, you know. I don't have to know the whole way.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:02

Yeah, yeah. Well, and I think so there's two things for me. Um the realization comes for me every now and then when I wake up and realize the thing that I was like so challenged by now is just like, oh yeah, I can do that, you know, and it's like like you don't realize really the journey, but when you arrive, like for instance for college, right? When you first you're that first semester is brutal because you're doing like you know, you're doing like 10 page page papers and it's like the first time you've ever done that. By the time you get to senior year, your teacher's like, all right, you have a 10-page paper due in a week, and you're like, okay. Yeah, you know, but you don't you don't realize that you get there until one day you wake up and you just knock it out. It's like, oh that's nothing, you know. Yep. Um yeah, and I feel like I feel like it's not a guarantee to get there though. Like I think it you have to be intentional with effort? Effort, but like it you have to be intentional with your mindset of no like going back to the loaves and fishes thing. Like if your focus and you're you're putting all of the pressure and weight on yourself, you might get there, but you're gonna be so stressed and so burnt out because you've been trying to do it all yourself that like you're it's not gonna be enjoyable. Um I just recently kind of had a revelation with the the prodigal son story. Everyone focuses on the son that like left and came back, which is like it's awesome.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:28

I like the brother's side.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:29

So the so that's my favorite part. Yeah, well, so the other brother brothers who stayed back, right? So what what and you know I I'm I believe this is correct, but when the father gave uh the um inheritance, I believe the wording says that he gave them their inheritance. So he gave both brothers their inheritance, not just the younger one. So the older brother, his hit I'm I that's what I think. I don't know. Um I didn't really look too much into it. So, but uh like that's that's what I believe that's what it says, is it says he gave them their inheritance. So to me, when I read this story, I'm like, okay, so the old the older brother's inheritance was the farm. It was the land, it was the house, it was it was the fields. And because like when the younger brother came back and the older brother went and talked to the father, he didn't say, Father, I've been I've been like um I've been uh you know working with you in the fields, or father, I've been blessed by this gift that you gave me. He said, Father, I've been slaving for you. And I think that that's that's where you arrive when you try to do things without focusing on Jesus and and remembering that it's not all on you. I think you get to a point where you feel like, gosh, here I am, slaving away. And it's like that's not what God wants. Like God wants you to feel like, hey, this is a gift, like there's no pressure. As long as you're just as long as you're as long as you're connected to me, as long as you abide in me, and as long as you're trying to take steps forward, like everything's gonna be alright. But I think when you get away from that and you primarily are focusing on yourself and you're you're putting that pressure on yourself, the gift becomes a burning.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:15

Oh that's so well said. It's so true. Yeah, the very thing that you've been gifted with, uh whether it's like a you know a character trait that you have or a physical gift that you've been given, the opposite side, like the flip of the coin, right? It can always be like the gift or the curse. Yeah, I love that. Oh my gosh. Okay, so last question. Yeah, if you could go back in time and speak to that younger version of you who had just gotten essentially fired from the mechanic job or just mutually decided to separate, um, and you were feeling very lost, um, very lost, very unsure what you're gonna do next. Um, what piece of advice would you give to that version of you?

SPEAKER_00 1:13:06

Man, that's a good question. That's a really good question.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:12

I think the piece of advice that I would give is your identity your identity isn't made up in like what you do for a career, you know? Because I think that in that moment I was not I was not a good mechanic. And instead of it's like the difference between like guilt and shame. You know, like the guilt is gosh, I didn't do well working on that car. But the moment that the I di I did a thing wrong, the moment that becomes I am wrong, it becomes like an identity piece, that's a problem. And I think that it like in that moment I I was struggling with that. It was it was like, wow, I I I didn't just do wrong. Like, I am incapable, I am a bad worker, I am a failure, you know. Um and I think in that moment I would just be like, listen, like this this is not who you are. This is something you did, sure. But it the moment you make this who you are, you trap yourself. Because if you are a failure, well, that's then anything you touch is gonna be a failure, right?

SPEAKER_04 1:14:30

If you if you decide that you're right, the ego will make you right every time.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:34

Yeah. Um, and I think I would caveat that, or I'd partner that with like, you know, the like God has a different path for you. You know, like it you have to let go of something before you receive something else. And so I think that I was I was so focused on trying to um, you know, I was so convinced that like, okay, this this must be what I what I need to do. Um, I guess I gotta, you know, be like blue collar, I guess I gotta work with my hands, I guess I gotta do whatever. And I think like the I mean, the last thing that I thought I was gonna be was a therapist. The last thing, you know? And so I think in a sense, I'd be like, listen, like God has plans for you that are so much bigger than what you want for yourself. And if you keep trying to like figure it all out yourself, you're actually gonna hinder yourself. Like, God wants good things for his children.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:36

Love. If I could drop the mic, I would. Um, okay, great. All right, so where can people find um like your services? What are some resources which people look up?

SPEAKER_01 1:15:50

Um, so the profit business is active therapy counseling.com. Um, the nonprofit business is Active Therapy Christian Counseling, and I believe right now the website is active therapy christian counseling.me. Hopefully that's gonna change soon. And simplify. But um, yeah, I mean you can find us on Facebook. Uh I think we have a Twitter account that I don't update very often.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:23

Well, if you think you have one, then the chances are pretty low.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:27

Yeah, right now uh our only location is Shrewsbury, Pennsylvania. But the hope is to expand, and honestly, the hope is to franchise. I'd love to have to have other people that um like want to step into the private practice experience, but are intimidated by the business side of things. Like, I'd love to give them an opportunity to do that, and then we would just take care of all the business stuff. So I love that. Hopefully, there's a lot more offices coming.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:53

Yes, yes. Well, we'll link. Oh my god, my hand out. Oh my god. I don't know if we can turn that but I learned to whack my hand on the table's so hard. Um we will link.

unknown 1:17:07

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:08

We're falling apart here with the video. We won't link the information in the description box below, like your information, your website. What was the book you mentioned again earlier?

SPEAKER_01 1:17:18

The book I mentioned was Defining Decade, and I can't remember who it's by. That's all right. It's called The Defining Decade. Cool, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:25

Okay. Well, thank you, Tyler, for being on the show. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:30

This was an honor.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:30

Thank you.