BF9 Micro-Budget Films

Which is the best micro-budget film?  The Blair Witch Project.  So why has David chosen El Mariachi and Gareth chosen Primer?  Particularly considering that it will make this episode extremely difficult to access - who has watched both these films?!

This episode contains spoilers - it is strongly recommended that you have seen both films.  The episode also contains one or two curse words.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Just a quick warning, this episode contains spoilers. It is strongly recommended that you watch both films being discussed. Also, we don't swear much, but there will be one or two curse words. Enjoy. Hello hello and welcome to Battleflips, where every episode my friend Gareth and I each choose a film within a predetermined genre to battle it out and establish which is best. So it is films I think it was made for less than$40,000. Was that the line? I think that was the line that makes it a micro budget film.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

I thought you'd said$400,000, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:03

Well maybe.

SPEAKER_00 1:04

I mean, uh now I think coincidentally both of ours are around the same number, right? They're about seven seven thousand dollars?

SPEAKER_01 1:11

Yeah, so we may as well say it's it's got to be under seven thousand and one. Let's just do that, because that you know, that means we haven't made bad decisions.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

Exactly. Yeah, no, it was a it was a great, great um choice of a battle by you. Thank you. Pains me to say it.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

My feeling is we both could have chosen Blair Witch and won this hands down, and neither of us did.

SPEAKER_00 1:35

Um yeah, I mean I liked Blair Witch. I didn't actually watch it when it came out, um, but I saw it maybe five, seven years ago, something like that. And yeah, that was really good.

SPEAKER_02 1:46

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:47

But my choice, which is primer, um I saw this a uh I would guess probably a couple of years after it came out, probably once or twice since before watching it again, you know, in the last uh week or two.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

I I didn't know anything of what's interesting is I've chosen a film that you haven't you hadn't seen, and you chose a film that I hadn't seen. I didn't even I'd never even heard of Primer before you mentioned it. So that was that was good, really nice. I mean it's not yeah, I don't think it's gonna help our numbers in terms of downloads because it's quite unlikely that people have seen both these films, but um I think yeah, it's it's good for us because we get to watch films that we hadn't seen before. Yeah, um yeah, I should say about your film. Yeah, so yeah, my film is uh Robert Rodriguez's El Mariachi, Mexican language film made again for$7,000. I mean I chose El Mariachi, I'd seen it once. When did when did you say like I think what happened was I watched Desperado uh and then I thought that was amazing, I loved Desperado, and then I heard that it was the second film uh and that there was a first film, and I watched that as if it was like the prequel to Desperado, it's not but it's you know it's it's a good film. Okay, and so Blair Which we didn't choose, should have chosen, didn't choose. What else is there? Is there anything else?

SPEAKER_00 3:14

Uh there was actually quite a few films that I I was looking at, um, a couple in a in a very similar genre to Primer. Um, there's a movie called Coherence.

SPEAKER_01 3:27

Don't know.

SPEAKER_00 3:28

Um, yeah, um it it's it's another kind of time travelly, you know, puzzle movie.

SPEAKER_01 3:36

I watched a film this year called Creep. Have you seen that? Horror film. Oh, yeah, it's a great film. That came on that came on the 400,000. It was um yeah, really nice little film.

SPEAKER_00 3:46

Yeah, yeah, Mark Duplas, really good film.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

Again, there's always this question of whether we choose because ours is really good at something, or we choose because yours is not very good at something. I I've I'm going with the former to start.

SPEAKER_00 4:04

You're not gonna go, you're not gonna go best shootout or something like that.

SPEAKER_01 4:09

Best use of a foreign language. Come on, we've we've done that. Although I'll tell you what, the signs in Prime is like a foreign language in places. Um yeah, so I'm gonna go with camera work. I think one of the joys of El Mariachi is it's made by a filmmaker who appreciates and knows his craft in terms of that sort of western genre of um close-ups of wide angle lenses and zooms. There's a bit of speeded up action in it, there's a bit of slow-mo in it. There's some weird little camera placements. I remember like um bullet casings hitting the floor. To me, it looked almost like Sergio Leone, kind of um, you know, the good, the bad, and the ugly kind of camera angles. Um like there's a fish eye close-up at one stage. He's really trying to um use the camera in an inventive way all the way through to try and basically to try and learn his craft. It's his first first ever film, he's got no money. He's trying to he's trying to make something that's visually interesting, and I think he I think he did a good job.

SPEAKER_00 5:28

Okay. Um I can I can understand why you've chosen that. Um because when when you compare it with um primer, it's it's less flashy, there are close-ups, there's there's not a lot of kind of um variety. It's it's it's a talky film, obviously.

SPEAKER_01 5:52

Boy is it a talky film.

SPEAKER_00 5:57

Boy is uh El Mariachi not. Um but yeah, I mean the the variety of um shooting and lenses and and flourishes, I would say, uh are much less in in primer because it is a very different film. Um I did appreciate some of those some some of them. Some of those things from um Rodriguez um because it was it did add some entertainment. Um a lot of it was just way too on the nose, I think. Example I think there was the the the main female protagonist um when she when she gets shot and killed it it's it's I think the camera focuses on her and it's like okay, just to clarify, it's like the camera saying, Okay, she's dead, alright. Just just so we're clear, guys, she's not coming back to life, she's not wounded, she is dead. Yeah, um, so it's very um um I can't quite think of the right word. I don't want to say sledgehammer because that's that just gives me um PTSD of substance, but um it it it it it it's very um like I said on the nose and just like bang, you know, it's it's this it's very obvious.

SPEAKER_01 7:31

I suppose Robert Rodriguez feels like it's important that the viewer knows what the fuck is going on, um, and so thank goodness that we point that she was dead because we know we know what's happening, we've got a good idea of what's happening there. Uh the clarity is you know important. Um, I mean, funnily enough, I completely agree with you. I don't know why I'm why I'm driving here. Um I completely agree with you. Um, yeah, they there are moments in El Mariachi where it is um I don't want to say sledge ham, I don't want to say ham fisted. I want to I don't there's other words for it, isn't it? I'm not quite sure what it is. It's a little bit um heavy-handed, I suppose, in the way in which it's presented. Um no doubt.

unknown 8:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:21

What about I wouldn't say the camera work on primer was anything. What I would say about the camera work in primer is that you don't notice it, which means it's it's good.

SPEAKER_00 8:32

You know, it's entirely appropriate, I think, for for for what the kind of film is.

SPEAKER_01 8:38

Um, you know, there are close-ups when needed, there's wide angles when needed, there's um most of it is pretty, you know, like like you said, it's yeah, it's shot in a room, it's shot in a room. Faces on screen, it's it's a two-hander, really. So there's two people talking for the majority of the film.

SPEAKER_00 8:57

Yeah, it's a lot of reaction shots, and yeah. Um, I um I am okay to give this one to you. Um, however, my first category is probably gonna be a little bit discordant with what you chose.

SPEAKER_01 9:13

How exciting. Let's do that. So 1-0.

SPEAKER_00 9:16

1-0.

SPEAKER_01 9:17

Thank you. I appreciate your yielding. I didn't know I didn't know whether you were good or not. I started to argue that um the camera work on El Maria Archie is well, if you can see the camera work, then it's probably not done very well because it's taken you out of the film. I started to argue against myself, but you've already yielded now, so I'm okay.

SPEAKER_00 9:43

Well, so so my first category is essentially going to be the look of the film, and we can call it the look with the production value. Um, they were both made for basically the same money. Primer looks so much better. The first basically the first shot of the film, you can just tell that Primer just has a higher production value than El Mariachi. My first reaction when I saw El Mariachi is, oh my goodness, this is a home video. Um, it just looks so amateur-ish, and the first five minutes of the film, I questioned whether I could get through it, frankly.

SPEAKER_01 10:26

You said that for about the last four of my films. I'm starting to be a little bit offended. You said that for stand by me, you said that for the substance. What's what's going on with you? Stop saying you can't get through my films. My films are amazing.

SPEAKER_00 10:44

Again, it it kind of goes back a little bit to the as you said, the a little bit of the heavy-handedness of the direction. Um, you know, when the when the guys come into the jail cell and there are some of the shots and it just looks so terrible. Like I said, it just looks like a a video that you or I could record on our iPhones. And I know the technology and all that. Whereas you can you compare that with Primer, and I think as as soon as the film starts, you're like, okay, this is a proper movie. Um, it doesn't look I mean your your whole battle here is about micro budget. I would say El Mariachi looked like a mer uh a micro budget film, whereas Primer did not. I I know it it was kind of simple in in terms of the um, you know, there's not hugely elaborate set pieces or anything like that, but it looked like a proper film, um, and looked less like a micro budget film than um El Mariachi.

SPEAKER_01 11:49

I suppose that's to do with what it's filming and I mean one of the reasons why I think El Mariachi looked like a home movie was because of the acting. I think that played a part. They're not doing much with the camera with Primer, are they? They're not doing there isn't there isn't a lot of they're not taking they're not taking many risks, I suppose, in the way in which they're filming it. I think you're absolutely right. I think there there is a there's a look to Primer, it doesn't look as amateur primer, but then I think that's because El Mariachi is trying, it's trying to look like a an action film with a budget of an of not an action film, whereas Primer's not really trying to look like that at all.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

I still think there are other action films made for not very much money that would just look a hell of a lot better. And it and it and again, like I said, it it's somewhat discordant with your first category and the camera work, but and I and I got all like I said, I got all the flourishes and everything, but just the the look of it, it it was it was not good.

SPEAKER_01 12:59

Yeah, yeah, I'm willing to yield on that, Gareth. I understand. I I don't think you're wrong. Um what so can you can you maybe elaborate on what it was? So it's not you're not talking about the the quality of the camera or the quality of the film that's filmed on, or what is it what is it you think? I'm just trying to ask ascertain exactly what the issue is. What is it that makes it look amateurish?

SPEAKER_00 13:27

Um I would say it is actually partly the the film that's being used. It looks like a home movie. Um there are a number of other other elements which I'll probably go into a bit later in the discussion. Um but some of the some of the shots again what I called out as very on the nose um shots. It just looked like somebody's first effort at making a movie.

SPEAKER_01 13:58

And it was that. I mean the reason it looks like that is it was that. Um I think probably the good thing, the the clever thing is that Primer wasn't that. I I don't see any reason why Mary actually shouldn't be that. It's it's seven grand, it's a kid straight out of university who's who wants to make a film, and so he gets all his mates together and he makes a film, and he and he does a fantastic job of it for what he's doing. Primer doesn't look like that. Primer doesn't look like just mates getting together and making a film.

SPEAKER_00 14:26

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 14:27

Yeah. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 14:29

One all. Okay, one one.

SPEAKER_01 14:35

Okay, my second category is fun. It's just fun. Isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 14:43

Now Okay, uh oh you have more to say. Okay, good.

SPEAKER_01 14:46

Oh, I do, yeah, I think I will. If that's right. Um El Mariachi is a is fun from start to finish. Okay. If you put aside your quibbles about the look of it, and you go along with it, it's just entertainment. It's a it's a nice little story of mistaken identity um and someone who's been caught in the crossfire of something that he's got nothing to do with, and it's just from start to finish, it's just uh a joy ride. It's just fun. And and um I appreciate the way he's done the action sequences, they're not, you know, they're not great. He's obviously got a a blood splatter kit for for his birthday, and he's like, yeah, I'm gonna use that, I'm gonna I'm gonna stick some things on people's chests and make them pop away, because he loved a bit of that, he did that all the way through, and it was just um it was just a blast. Whereas primer is not a blast. Primer is not fun. It's just not. It's not back to the future, I'll tell you, it's not that for a for a time machine film. I didn't see Marty or Doc anywhere. It it was for the first 20 minutes, it was like the films that you see, used to see in science lessons, where they'd play like how to how how atoms work or how you know they they play you some sort of informative science um like educational film. The first 20 minutes was just people talking like they were on one of those. It was um the first I would say, I think it's about 30 minutes in. I remember thinking this is a 70-minute film, and I'm 30 minutes in, and it's just really dull science. It's just people talking about really dull science at the moment, and they go and visit what one professor and he says something about some mould, and then they go visit another professor and he says the same thing about mould. It's like, whoa, this is what is this?

SPEAKER_00 16:53

I I would actually um categorise both of our films the same way. I thought the first 30 minutes of El Mariachi, you were kind of waiting for like the setup to be over and get into what I'd hoped was you know some nice action and some entertainment. I thought the 30 minutes, the first 30 minutes of El Mariachi was probably the worst bit. After that, I think I think it picked up a lot, and I I can see what you mean from primer as well, because it is it is quite dry, and it takes a while to complete the setup and understand not what the hell's going on, but the first part of what they're setting up. Yeah, because nobody uh you know I've I've seen videos on the movie trying to explain what's going on, and they have different you know, timelines around which version of Abe and Aaron is portrayed here and what this means when this person says this, and the the narration that or the voicemail that goes over the top, who's that, and what it all means. So you can kind of never figure that out. I found the fun in Primer as you were going along, and you're gonna hate this re-watching it because it's it's um I drew parallels with something like The Prestige, where I remember as soon as it was over, I wanted to watch it again to figure it all out and spot little things and try to pick see if I could pick up clues, and I was similar to that in primer, very different film, a lot less kind of um entertainment fun, if you like, yeah, but I I did find actually a lot of fun in primer in the puzzleness of the film.

SPEAKER_01 18:58

You're using the word fun right there, because I can see I well, I I can go on the internet, I've done a bit of that. You have to go on the internet after you've watched primer because otherwise you just don't know what's going on because the filmmaker doesn't give you enough information.

SPEAKER_00 19:15

It's deliberately confusing.

SPEAKER_01 19:18

Well, you say that, right? So let's just let me just talk about a specific example there because I figured that would be your get out clause, which is they've done this on purpose because they want it to be a puzzle box of a film, right? That's your get-out clause. I get that, but there are areas in the film where they've just been um slack in showing you what's going on or giving you information, right? So the chap the chap Thomas Granger, who is is probably he's mentioned so much that he's probably the third character in the film, right? He's the one they're trying to get funding from, and then he goes through the time machine um and they try and stop him going through a time machine, he goes into a coma, all that he is he is on screen for about three seconds for the whole film, and he's on the floor at the back of someone's yard in really bad lighting. You don't know, you haven't seen him, you don't know him, you don't know that they've like deliberately left him out, and that's not to make it a puzzle box, that's just careless, I think, in in the filmmaking, because you can't it's very difficult to know what's going on when you don't you don't see the character, it's just hearsay, it's just you know, he's a really important part of what's going on. He should be in the film, but he's not in the film.

SPEAKER_00 20:41

I have you probably maybe able to see here. I've written in my notes here Thomas Granger question mark.

SPEAKER_02 20:46

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:47

I I ad I admit that that is the one of the biggest flaws in Primer is yeah, you hear him mentioned, but it's it's never like made out to be a big thing, and then this guy has gotten in the box and this it's this huge blow-up, and you're like, what wait, who's this guy again? And um, yeah, I admit that that that is that is a pretty big weak point and plot hole in the film.

SPEAKER_01 21:16

Yeah, a lot's been gathered out of primer, and I appreciate that. I appreciate that people really like the mystery of it and like the sort of um the complex nature of what's possibly going on in the film. Um I get that. Well I wouldn't I mean I would have said entertainment rather than fun if I thought you were gonna classify that as fun. I'm not sure I'm not sure people are doing that because it's fun, they're doing it because um they are trying to unwrap the film.

SPEAKER_00 21:47

It's it's interesting and um yeah. I I I I'm with you. It's it's it's maybe a little bit of a stretch to say fun. I appreciate you trying that. You chose the bloody category, so I'm I'm doing my best.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Yeah, welcome.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

Um, yeah, I mean, like I said, with El Mariachi, I did get more into it, and it was kind of um for me, a lot of the ridiculousness of El Mariachi, I did I did get more on board with as it was going along.

SPEAKER_02 22:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:20

And you probably hit the nail on the head. Uh after I've I've finished watching it, I was like, I mean, that was not a great film, but it was a fun 90 minutes, honestly. It was entertaining.

SPEAKER_01 22:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:33

Um, there was a lot of issues I had with it. Um rightly so, Gary. I will give you fun.

SPEAKER_01 22:42

You'll give that's go to the cut for next week. I will give you fun.

SPEAKER_00 22:52

Alright. Okay, so it's I think it's time to get serious here. Um my second category, and you've alluded to it already, the acting. I kinda don't know where to start.

SPEAKER_01 23:11

Let's start like let's start like this. Who's the best actor in El Mariachi? Who's the most convincing?

SPEAKER_00 23:17

The most convincing. Um I thought the the one person that actually uh there was two that I actually quite liked. I liked the main female protagonist. Domino. Very underwritten and comes from nowhere and blah blah blah. Whatever. I thought she did a a decent job. I thought she was fine. The one guy who I thought I I I was I was intrigued by was the the one one of the um Um goons, the the biggish guy with the shades um who survived at the end. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:00

Um I thought he was pretty good.

SPEAKER_01 24:02

Did he how many?

SPEAKER_00 24:03

I'm not I don't think he said very much, if anything.

SPEAKER_01 24:07

Just his fact didn't look like a human in the film. He didn't make any facial expressions like he was in a fucking pantomime. He looked just normal. Yeah, and and the shades probably helped as well engaged the best actor was was an actor because of the accessory that he chose to hide behind his unconvincing eyes.

SPEAKER_00 24:28

Exactly. Yeah, you you saw the least acting from him as possible. Um I mean the guy in the white suit was not absolutely terrible, whereas I've I found everybody else just I mean, you you said it, he dragged a bunch of his mates and probably relatives together and filmed this thing, most of whom could not act for Toffee were and I'll I'll compare that with Primer. I know there's very few characters, there was nobody in it that stood out as terrible, and I thought the main two leads were actually very, very good.

SPEAKER_01 25:09

Very convincing.

SPEAKER_00 25:10

What say you?

SPEAKER_01 25:11

You know how when sometimes we do this podcast and one of us will say something, the other one will be absolutely like taken aback by what they've said. There was something you said then that I was absolutely taken aback by that.

SPEAKER_00 25:25

I'm just gonna The guy in the white suit?

SPEAKER_01 25:27

The guy in the white suit was absolutely the worst actor in the whole film, I thought.

SPEAKER_00 25:33

He was snarling and he was almost like See, I thought the mariachi mariachi was worse, terrible. Yeah, I thought he was awful. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:42

When I was watching it, every time the guy in the white suit came on, I thought Gareth's gonna kill me here, man. He's gonna absolutely pan me for this.

SPEAKER_00 25:49

He he's it's very mustache twirling again, you know.

SPEAKER_01 25:52

It's his pants mine mask. It's like it's like he's a villain in a pants mine. I don't feel like I can't feel like I can yield on the phone. You've got no defence. I really don't feel like I can't what I am I am yielding 100%. Um I was about to blow there. There's absolutely no contest or question about me yielding on the category of acting.

SPEAKER_00 26:26

Okay, 2-2.

SPEAKER_01 26:28

My third category, and we've sort of alluded to it, I suppose I s I suppose we've alluded to it a little bit, and I think you're probably gonna argue with me a little bit because I don't think you thought it was very good in El Mario Archi, but it's the pacing, the pacing of the film with Primer. If you were to let's say you were thinking about a running machine going at a consistent pace. Treadmill. Treadmill, is that what you call it in your in your place? In our country, that's what we call it, yeah. You crazy Americans. Um yeah, imagine you're on a treadmill. I thought Primer, so it's a 17-minute film, really snappy. I thought the first half an hour was a slow walking pace, and then there was a pretty good pace for about 20 minutes where I thought this is good now, this is a good pace, and then I got thrown off the machine because it was going at 160 miles an hour after that. So it's like it's almost like three-thirds. Where the first was like a science information movie, like I said, the middle bit was like, Oh, this is good. I get this, this is nice. And then the final bit was like, What is this? What's going on? I don't feel like for a film to work, you should have to read three theses by professors at university to work out exactly what's happened in the film. I don't feel like that's something that should be happening, um, which is essentially what I had to do. So, so pacing wise, I just felt like they got it all wrong.

SPEAKER_02 28:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 28:04

I was gonna say El Mariachi's pacing was lovely, really nice, carries you along at the right speed, but but your talk about the first 30 minutes makes me think that you are at odds with that.

SPEAKER_00 28:18

Yeah, um yeah, I'll cover El Mariachi first. So so yeah, like I said, I think I mean all I knew about El Mariachi was a two-line description, yeah, honestly. That I I I knew there was gonna be you know gangsters and gunfights and um maybe some mistaken identity or something, and I was kind of waiting for all that to really kind of get going. Um and again, I think some of it is probably linked to the production value and the acting. And I I I I will give you the fact that the pacing certainly improved after the half hour mark for El Mariachi. But what I'll what I'll say about Primer, I mean, if if you look at most movies, even like action films, there's normally a high arctane start, then it often goes flat in the middle, and then it goes bonsai crazy in in the third act, right?

SPEAKER_01 29:18

I felt like the first act was was a lot of people talking about what they were doing in the garage, and people and talking about mould, as I said, and like sort of build it took a long time for you to really get into the film, took a long time for you for the DeLorean to hit 88 miles per hour and for the to go back to you know the under the sea dance. It took a long time for that all that to happen, and then I felt like when you started to realise what was going on, because I like you, I didn't even look at anything to do with Primal, I didn't even know it was a time travel film, I genuinely didn't. And there was a bit in it where I sort of I almost said aloud, oh, this is a time travel film. That's that's what we're doing, right? Yeah, yeah. And maybe that's why the pacing felt a little bit heavy for me at the beginning because I didn't know where it was going. I just thought I was watching some people talking about what they were doing in the garage about trying to seemingly trying to reduce the weight of something seemed to be what they were trying to do. Um, and then the middle bit, so for the middle bit for me was like the the first act where I was like, Yeah, I'm getting into this world now, I understand what's going on. Um, and then the then obviously the rest of it was just wow.

SPEAKER_00 30:32

See, for for me, the pacing of primer that that's what left me intrigued and wanting to find out more because it I think if it had been first act all the way through, it would have been a lot less impactful.

SPEAKER_01 30:49

Yeah, um, at the end. I don't disagree in entirely with that. I think I felt particularly if we forget about the beginning bit, because we can I think we can both say both our films were saggy at the beginning, that's okay. Yeah, um, if we talk about the the end, you know, the last third of the of primer, I felt like part of me was thinking, look, there's a reason why really mind-bending films like Tenet and Interstellar are three hours long. It's because it you need a you need some room to understand what it's all about, um, inception and all that sort of thing. So in 70 minutes, I I I felt, and you are you obviously maybe didn't feel the same, but I genuinely felt like they've missed bits out here that would have helped me. I do feel like we you could have made a 120-minute film and made it a lot easier for me to see what's going on. Do you know what I mean? I think there's a whole sec it's almost like someone had edited out whole sections that would enable you to work out what was going on.

SPEAKER_00 31:47

Um, yeah, and um it's interesting you say that. I don't think there was whole sections edited out. I uh again, I I think it's deliberately oblique and not obvious for a reason. Yeah, and yeah, I I I cannot yield on this um because I like I said, I I think from a pacing side of things it was entirely appropriate for the film in the same way that El Mariachi was.

SPEAKER_01 32:16

So what you're saying is they were trying, they were trying to make it so that the pacing was too fast to keep up. Is that what you're is that is that why you're not yielding? You're not yielding because you feel it was the it was a conscious decision to make the pacing untenable.

SPEAKER_00 32:35

Because it if if you think about it, right? The the the nature of the film and what happens is getting more chaotic, right? Yeah, and you're living that out through the film. There's there's no chaos in the first 30 minutes, what's happening in the film, it's just talkie-talkie-talkie. The second second act is when the chaos element is intro introduced and there's more going on, and in the third act, it's pure chaos, pure chaos, like what's happening in in that world, and that's what's manifesting itself on the screen.

SPEAKER_01 33:12

Yeah, okay. I can't, you know, I'm gonna have to yield on you not yielding, if that's the way it works. There's nothing I can do there.

SPEAKER_00 33:20

Thank you. Um okay, so I am going for influence. Um when I read about primer and when you compare it with other time travel movies, there seems to be a lot of influence that is taken from Primer.

SPEAKER_01 33:48

Is there?

SPEAKER_00 33:49

Um yes, so I don't um so a couple of the films that I've already referenced, um Coherence, Triangle, Low Budget um science fiction films, time travel films that I'm I'm not sure maybe wouldn't have gotten made without Primer um being the first one. Um do you remember Ryan Ryan Johnson's film Looper? Fantastic film he he he called out um Primer as one of the inspirations um for for that film and um have you seen the film Time Crimes? No oh watch that please it's um a Spanish language film I think it's a Spanish film um that um has some similar similar stuff going on um and I think if if you were to do a Google search you would see that there there's probably a a a list of other films where whereas what what I see in and I'm just taking Mar El Mariachi as a film the influence that it's had.

SPEAKER_01 35:06

As a film.

SPEAKER_00 35:07

I I s I see stuff that's pretty derivative. Um it's very on the nose, it's very obvious. Um there's nothing too new in in the film. Obviously, now the and this is the main sticking point. Robert Rodriguez has gone on to huge things, of course, whereas Shane Carruth, he's made one other film, I think, called Upstream Colour.

SPEAKER_01 35:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:34

Um, which is have you seen that? No. Yeah, it's it's it's another kind of um challenging film, I would say. Um and so he he doesn't have the kind of oeuvre that Robert Rodriguez has, but again, from from a standalone film, I would say Primer has had a uh a huge amount of influence on the genre as compared with El Mariachi, which has taken more um rather than provided new um new material.

SPEAKER_01 36:06

I like the fact that you've just said it's taken from other films because it has, it's it is you can see the influence of like I said before, Sergio Leoni films and yeah, exactly the Westerns. Yeah, um I get that. I suppose my issue is it sounds like you're saying Prima Primer started and then other films took it away. I'd never heard of Triangle, I'd never heard of what was the other one? Cohesion? No, not cohesion. Coherence, never heard of that. Heard of Looper, Looper's a great film. I would say probably my feeling is Twelve Monkeys would be a main influence on those. Twelve Monkeys is very similar to like Looper in its in its uh in the way in which it's set up. Twelve Monkeys was like 10 years before Primer. I don't know why where Primer is setting the bar for time travel movies.

SPEAKER_00 37:04

But it's not just the subject matter, like I said, I I think just for the fact that a complex mind-bender of a science fiction film could be made for$7,000, I think provided inspiration to other movie to other movie makers that it could be done, and it didn't have to be a flashy fights in space type thing. It could just be a um quite a talky film, but with some interesting science, paradoxes, confusing elements, and you don't have to again do the cookie cutter neat in a box, you know, clear ending, this is how it all wraps up, they don't live happily ever after, they do. It's it's not that it's vague, and you can take away from it what you want.

SPEAKER_01 37:59

Yeah, I wanted to take away a coherent film that I understood. That sounded snippy, didn't it? I didn't mean it's I really enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_00 38:06

I t I t I told you, I told you, you always come in hot about that film.

SPEAKER_01 38:11

Um let me put let me put an argument together. Obviously, this is your category, so I haven't researched this at all. But here's what I'm thinking, right? El Mariachi comes in with all its influences from other films, right? It 100% inspired Desperado, which was made a year later, 1992. So 1992 was El Mario Mariachi.

SPEAKER_00 38:32

So you so you're saying you're saying the director inspired his own film? Okay.

SPEAKER_01 38:36

I'm saying that him making El Mariachi was a stencil for wonder what I could do if I was given loads of money. And so someone gave him loads of money. He said that's the same. I think that then paved the way for Quenta Tarantino. Because you'll notice that Desperado, 1993, True Romance uh was written by Tarantino, 1993, uh Reservoir Dogs, I'll have to look it up, but I think probably 94, 95, Res Dogs, what do you think?

SPEAKER_00 39:11

It's definitely 90s.

SPEAKER_01 39:13

Oh man, Reservoir Dogs was 92. See, I think what I think's happened here you're in quicksand, mate, is that L. Mariachi was inspirational was inspirational to the making of Reservoir Dogs because what Robert Rodriguez did was he got into a box, um, he said he set the box for uh uh much earlier on, and um he went back and and then spoke to Tarantino. Uh Tarantino had an earpiece in and he was listening to the whole conversation for the second time, and it and it all transpired that uh he was inspired to make his very unique style of filmmaking.

SPEAKER_00 40:00

Um I'm tempted to give you half a point just for creativity there.

SPEAKER_01 40:04

Yeah, you're not that tempted though, are you? Yeah, okay. I yield, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:13

Thank you, sir. Um well I mean I I think a three and a half, two and a half, I think is when when you look at the two films, I think that is the right result. I I I still think about it quite a lot, that film, but it's not for the good animals.

SPEAKER_01 40:28

I know, I know I get that. I really do think I was thinking of Desperado when I chose. Uh and I think Desperado would have won, but there's no way the the with explosions in Desperado, there's no way that it would only cost 7,000$7,000. Okay, well done. Thank you. Let's do some lines. Shall we do some lines? That sounds like at the end of at the end of the podcast, we always do some lines, me and Gareth.

SPEAKER_00 41:02

Okay, um, I just want you to see it the way I saw it.

SPEAKER_01 41:09

It's a really good line. There's so it's annoying, in it, primer, because I found it so frustrating, and then when you start reading about it, it it's really layered. There's a lot to it, and just a line like that, I just want you to see it the way I saw it. It's a layered line again that has like double meaning. That's frustrating, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 41:32

Um, what's your losing line?

SPEAKER_01 41:35

My losing line is no love, no luck, no ride, nothing changes.

SPEAKER_00 41:42

Oh poor Dave.

SPEAKER_01 41:50

On the next episode of Battleflex.

SPEAKER_00 41:52

My choice of a battle this time is revisionist westerns. And my choice is the assassination of Jesse James by the coward Robert Ford, hereafter known as Jesse James.

SPEAKER_01 42:08

Shall I just call it Jesse James for the minute? I've chosen the wild bunch.

SPEAKER_00 42:13

You know, you've got big, four big strong guys there, and they're practically, you know, just waving it around. This has been such a nice episode up to now. You know, every everybody's trying to be the big dog or something, but I've accidentally stepped on a landmine and blown myself to hell. Again, you don't know how and why and with who and at what point. Absolute incompetence and idiots.